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View Full Version : Let's Look @ Archer's Break Now


mosconiac
10-29-2008, 11:31 AM
Now that we've had a healthy discussion on SVB's break, let's talk about another great breaker and how he compares to the other top rack-crushers.

I shot a pair of clips of Johnny Archer breaking at the 2007 DCC 10B ring game. Fortunately, I was able to get him from two different angles. Here are the two vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXTA2n-qkwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmWyiZ73ymg

The more you study the break techniques of the best breakers out there, you will find distinct similarlities. Buste, Hohmann, SVB, Nevel, & JA for example all have distinctly different looking forms, but they ALL have significant commonality. I will point out these common factors out in this thread. These specific items are what we have to pull into our own natural rhythm to develop the most productive break.

SET:
Johnny sets up for the break very low...just as Buste, Hohmann, SVB, & Nevel do. You will note his arm position is vertical and looks as if he could be shooting a normal shot. From here, Johnny takes a series of quick practice strokes and you will note how loose his arm appears...NO TENSION! Interstingly, JA does not use the forward hand position that Buste, Hohmann, SVB, & Nevel do.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot1.jpg

BACKSWING:
Johnny takes his final backswing and although it is difficult to see in the video because it all happens so fast, Johnny's hand opens up (wrist cocks) and stays near motionless as he transitions into the forward swing. I have noticed this same pause (no matter how brief) in ALL of the top breakers. Note the hand position has raised the butt of the cue significantly. I have noticed this same elevation in ALL of the top breakers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot2.jpg

TRANSITION:
As Johnny starts his forward move, his body starts to rise up and his elbow slides behind his body. I have noticed this same elbow movement in ALL of the top breakers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot5.jpg

FOLLOW-THRU:
You will notice here that Johnny's body has risen straight up so there is nowhere for the arm to go but around his body on the follow-thru. This is what gives Johnny his charactersitic (exaggerated) elbow-out follow-thru motion. You will notice many similarities in Jon Kucharo's break video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O21AsO3g9Ms

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/JABreakShot8.jpg

Now take a look at these vids and see if you can see the common elevated baskswing, elbow tuck, pause at the back as the body rises, and wrist cock...

Buste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1lGmxqPNd8
SVB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YCBs6T2kMI
Nevel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMmq2UXrNf0
Hohmann: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txpzb8wpuKY

BTW, no one tops Buste's elevation & wrist cock!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/BusteElevation.jpg


EDIT: I've added evaluations of Charlie Bryant's and Larry Nevel's breaks here:

CB: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=125466
LN: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=126254

cajunbarboxplyr
10-29-2008, 11:36 AM
Very cool stuff!!

Check out How Hillbilly transitions his body when breaking......Generates LOTS of power!

sfleinen
10-29-2008, 11:54 AM
Very cool stuff!!

Check out How Hillbilly transitions his body when breaking......Generates LOTS of power!
Yup! And another *powerful* breaker is Evgeny Stalev:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PkCG3q2PDa4

(Go to 9:20 in the video, to see the first of Evgeny's bone-crushing breaks. And, the cueball doesn't hop around on the table either!)

Evgeny's break seems to originate more from the arm and chest (pectoral muscle), rather than from body momentum, because his body doesn't seem to move all that much.

-Sean

Drew
10-29-2008, 12:15 PM
How about these hard-hitters

Jeff De Luna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyvNI13xH8o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLDCnivOTS4&feature=related

Wu Chia-Ching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APpsm3as3-w

Bigkahuna
10-29-2008, 01:52 PM
Yup! And another *powerful* breaker is Evgeny Stalev:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PkCG3q2PDa4

(Go to 9:20 in the video, to see the first of Evgeny's bone-crushing breaks. And, the cueball doesn't hop around on the table either!)

Evgeny's break seems to originate more from the arm and chest (pectoral muscle), rather than from body momentum, because his body doesn't seem to move all that much.

-Sean

He and Busty really have a big backswing and high cue elevation. Probably would take a lot of time to make that effective.

9 ball
10-29-2008, 02:24 PM
Can someone tell me what cue exactly it is archer uses for playing here's a video of the cues he uses his playing cue is the one closest to him, you get a good view of it at 1.09, the reason I ask is because he says he gets all his cues from the scorpion factory as made no modifications but I can't find it on the scorpion cues website:

Anyway here's the video

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuh2VAFCpjs

gregthcarpenter
10-29-2008, 04:44 PM
Johny giving a lesson on breaking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffkl-zp96N8&NR=1

mosconiac
10-30-2008, 07:34 PM
Bump for those that haven't had a chance to see this....

Texas Prez
10-30-2008, 07:45 PM
Wow...Jeff de Luna....wow...enough said

Gatz
10-31-2008, 03:32 AM
Im not Johnny Archer, but I will add my 2 cents into this thread. From my experience breaking keeping your hand on the table while your cue follows through all the way gets way better results than lifting your cue into the air.

I like the way shane does it, less power lots of follow through. He keeps his hand ON the table, and does not raise his bridge hand into the air. I think this is very important, for getting the best results, and power.

When I keep my hand on the table and follow through like shane does I get amazingly good results. If I lift my bridge hand off the table after my follow through I lose so much power and get very poor results.

Bringing your cue into the air can't help anything. But keeping your cue straight, and inline with the shot all the way through the follow through can only help.

When I get a really good break going I usually follow through all the way sometimes passed the Joint, and the tip is almost at the cueball where it contacts the 1. I have never hit a ball following through that much, and I usually pull away in time if something like that occurs.

AnitoKid
11-01-2008, 02:57 PM
Coolness! And I kid you not!
Thanks for sharing!


:)

Olive
11-21-2008, 09:56 AM
I'll kid you all the way ;)

JayBaltimore
11-21-2008, 10:31 AM
nice post and a cool read....imma have to try the elevated elbow mess...but nevel's and archers are almost identical in those vid's posted. thanks for taking the time to post these...cool story.

JE54
05-11-2010, 07:59 AM
Thanks for posting this info..........

CreeDo
05-11-2010, 09:42 AM
Interesting observation about the elbow tuck. I've noticed the same tendency in my arm. Maybe our arms are just built so that when they go back, and you keep the elbow bent, the elbow wants to tuck in. Or maybe it's that he's adding power with the hip torquing so the elbow tuck is actually the body rotating a little away from the break, and then it rotates the opposite direction on the final swing.

Look how feathery and light busty grips even on the break, with 3 fingers seemingly completely taken out of the process. Whereas shane is grabbing with all fingers.

Scott Lee
05-11-2010, 12:50 PM
Amazing to me how these YEARS OLD threads keep resurfacing. Here's the facts folks...the CB is gone from the tip in 1/1000th of a second. It doesn't matter what you do with your body, it has no bearing on the outcome or result. The question is why do the top pros do what they do? The answer is that they all devote years of practice to eccentric movement. Personally, I'd rather practice a smooth transition from the final backswing to the forward stroke...and let the cue do the work. You get just as good a result (and for the majority of us, a better result), without all the gyrations and antics, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

sfleinen
05-11-2010, 01:25 PM
Amazing to me how these YEARS OLD threads keep resurfacing. Here's the facts folks...the CB is gone from the tip in 1/1000th of a second. It doesn't matter what you do with your body, it has no bearing on the outcome or result. The question is why do the top pros do what they do? The answer is that they all devote years of practice to eccentric movement. Personally, I'd rather practice a smooth transition from the final backswing to the forward stroke...and let the cue do the work. You get just as good a result (and for the majority of us, a better result), without all the gyrations and antics, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott:

I heartily agree on both fronts. First, where are all these old threads bubbling up from? I know we're having earthquakes and volcanoes erupting at our current point in time; is there a magma or methane gas build up someplace causing all these old threads to resurface? :D

As for the simplicity vs. eccentricity in motion on the break shot, I agree as well. For me, I'll take a nice relaxed, fluid, simple break like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PkCG3q2PDa4#t=560

...over this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O21AsO3g9Ms

...any day! In that second example, that contraption breaking the balls is about to fly apart -- any bystanders better duck, otherwise they'll get a spring or a cotter pin right in the eye! :eek:

-Sean

JoeW
05-11-2010, 03:35 PM
Here are some interesting photos of breaks and other shots by pros that I collected and wrote about.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/ShootLikePros.htm

Not everyone agrees with my ideas but the photos don't lie. The first few and the last are break shots by the pros.

Scott Lee
05-11-2010, 03:46 PM
JoeW...Nope, the photos don't lie. However, someone can choose to try to copy something a handful of people on the planet can do really well (and practice it for YEARS)...OR they can choose to keep movement simple, and use the weight of the cue and timing, to create a perfect break shot! For the HUGE majority of us mortals, the latter makes much more sense, imo!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Here are some interesting photos of breaks and other shots by pros that I collected and wrote about.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/ShootLikePros.htm

Not everyone agrees with my ideas but the photos don't lie. The first few and the last are break shots by the pros.

TSW
05-11-2010, 04:15 PM
Amazing to me how these YEARS OLD threads keep resurfacing. Here's the facts folks...the CB is gone from the tip in 1/1000th of a second. It doesn't matter what you do with your body, it has no bearing on the outcome or result. The question is why do the top pros do what they do? The answer is that they all devote years of practice to eccentric movement. Personally, I'd rather practice a smooth transition from the final backswing to the forward stroke...and let the cue do the work. You get just as good a result (and for the majority of us, a better result), without all the gyrations and antics, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


This thread at least is dealing with what happens before the tip hits the cue ball, which I think is relevant to the break shot. Every player's power break shot has more moving parts than just the arm. Synchronizing those moving parts is important.

The break shot is like the drive in golf. It requires more body movement to maximize the cue speed. Most other pool shots are like the golf putt, where simple is better.

9 ball
05-12-2010, 07:07 AM
I'm sorry tsw_521 but I have to agree with Scott Lee when he says:

"you get just as good a result (and for the majority of us, a better result), without all the gyrations and antics, imo".


I grew up playing snooker for about 10 years and because the break uses no body movement whatsoever when I eventually moved over to pool I just kept this break style and yes at first it got me nowhere but as I learned and watched the top players use a power break where they come off the ground with extreme body movement I also tried that and to start with it produced results but in the last couple of months this technique has diminished my cue power and cb control.

That is until I found this video of Charlie Bryant teaching breaking technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkByJCwTqSo&playnext_from=TL&videos=qRkr5clqbSk

Now with the aid of this video I have found that by turning my feet @ a 45 degree angle, brining my back hand further to the front of the cue thus shortening my backswing my power and cb control has increased without my body ever moving because all the power comes from my legs when they are ever so slightly bent and all I have to do to generate the power is push up into a standing position without having my legs and arms flayling wildly.

Sorry for the long rant but this is just my 2 cents

9 Ball

mosconiac
05-12-2010, 08:26 AM
Three thoughts...

1) Old threads pop up because they contained valuable information (maybe you don't think so, but the person posting did) and the poster didn't want to start a NEW thread to see the same old info regurgitated, which you would probably b!tch about too. I applaud the technique of building on existing material/information and limiting redundancies.

2) Many, many people have improved their break power & accuracy by emulating the best breakers. I know this because I've received many, many positive PM's & reps about these particular threads. Oh, and my own break speed & accuracy has improved impressively from the same work...and it didn't take YEARS to improve. Within a 1/2 hour I was seeing much more power & much more accuracy. I guess I'll side with the "supporters" (and their empirical data) rather than the "naysayers".

3) Dismissing this information as "gyrations and antics" is absurb.

BTW, I don't always break hard, it's just another tool in my kit!

JustinHayes
05-12-2010, 08:38 AM
Scott, sfleinen,

Is there anything wrong with searching subject matter from old threads? Anything wrong with searching, then posting on those threads instead of creating a new, rendundant thread.... or asking a question that has already been answered (sometimes dozens of times)? ...... or, in this case.....Is there anything wrong with thanking someone for their opinion/contribution/information/etc, even if the thread is old.... or if you, personally, don't agree with the content? How old is too old for a thread to be posted on?

TSW
05-12-2010, 09:27 AM
...

That is until I found this video of Charlie Bryant teaching breaking technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkByJCwTqSo&playnext_from=TL&videos=qRkr5clqbSk

Now with the aid of this video I have found that by turning my feet @ a 45 degree angle, brining my back hand further to the front of the cue thus shortening my backswing my power and cb control has increased without my body ever moving because all the power comes from my legs when they are ever so slightly bent and all I have to do to generate the power is push up into a standing position without having my legs and arms flayling wildly.

Sorry for the long rant but this is just my 2 cents

9 Ball

9 ball,

I think we are talking about the same thing. Charlie Bryant makes a big deal about the hip rotation in that video - cocking back and then unwinding forward ahead of the cue. You don't need the bouncy motion of a Bustamante but you absolutely need hip rotation in order to get a power break. So it's not accurate to say your body "never" moves. It just moves in a more compact manner.

Every sport that involves hitting a ball with a club requires hip rotation. Golf, baseball, hockey, tennis, etc. They all derive their power from the rotation of the body. Pool is no different.

9 ball
05-12-2010, 09:34 AM
I'm sorry tsw_521 if it came across as if I meant that my feet don't move on the up stroke they do but if they do then it is minimal movement of my heels off the floor, btw I think everybody should try having the feet @ a 45 degree angle because I think it works wonders for stability not just on the break but for most shots around the table.

interman
05-12-2010, 01:25 PM
Here are some interesting photos of breaks and other shots by pros that I collected and wrote about.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/ShootLikePros.htm

Not everyone agrees with my ideas but the photos don't lie. The first few and the last are break shots by the pros.

Joe, I want to thank you for that article. I brought the adductor pollicis thing to the table today, and even after just one session playing against the regular bar crowd on a shitty valley barbox I'm shooting straighter than I was before.

JoeW
05-12-2010, 02:00 PM
Joe, I want to thank you for that article. I brought the adductor pollicis thing to the table today, and even after just one session playing against the regular bar crowd on a shitty valley barbox I'm shooting straighter than I was before.

Your welcome. It did the same for my game on the break and on all other shots. Seems to keep the cue on line. I think there is a reason it can be seen in so many pros who have high pocketing consistency.

teedotaj
05-12-2010, 02:28 PM
Here are some interesting photos of breaks and other shots by pros that I collected and wrote about.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/ShootLikePros.htm

Not everyone agrees with my ideas but the photos don't lie. The first few and the last are break shots by the pros.

same thing as the "V" used by snooker players and brought to AZ by Lee Brett?

interman
05-12-2010, 02:43 PM
Your welcome. It did the same for my game on the break and on all other shots. Seems to keep the cue on line. I think there is a reason it can be seen in so many pros who have high pocketing consistency.

One of the problems I have / have had until now was that I kept adding quite a bit of english unintentionally when doing relatively powerful shots. This wasn't a huge deal on shorter range shots, but as you mention in the article it made long shorts tougher than they should be.

This is why I love azb. One tiny tidbit might improve your game almost instantly.

Otterman
05-13-2010, 10:28 PM
Obviously different players get good breaking results with different techniques. The late, great Steve Mizerak had a terrific break and could generate a lot of power with little to no body movement. I have 1 old Accu-Stats video of him playing Buddy Hall and Miz absolutely crushes several breaks in this manner. Unfortunately, the old VCR is kaput, so I don't have a method to post these breaks here or on YouTube.

Although I take the "different strokes for different folks" approach, I agree with Mr. Scott Lee that most body motion is unnecessary, and for most people it likely damages their break by reducing their accuracy.

JMuck
05-13-2010, 11:45 PM
Amazing to me how these YEARS OLD threads keep resurfacing. Here's the facts folks...the CB is gone from the tip in 1/1000th of a second. It doesn't matter what you do with your body, it has no bearing on the outcome or result. The question is why do the top pros do what they do? The answer is that they all devote years of practice to eccentric movement. Personally, I'd rather practice a smooth transition from the final backswing to the forward stroke...and let the cue do the work. You get just as good a result (and for the majority of us, a better result), without all the gyrations and antics, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

This is fine IF you want to be of the majority, but this thread can also be about if you want to be of a very small minority that can dominate with a big break.Without question,10-ball in a winner break format,and svb has a big advantage.Obviously foundation work and knowledge of basic principles are essential to being a good player but analysis of the extremes is also essential in order for players to see what is possible and to reach for being exceptional rather than simply above average.

pacman
03-10-2013, 04:59 PM
Interesting observation about the elbow tuck. I've noticed the same tendency in my arm. Maybe our arms are just built so that when they go back, and you keep the elbow bent, the elbow wants to tuck in. Or maybe it's that he's adding power with the hip torquing so the elbow tuck is actually the body rotating a little away from the break, and then it rotates the opposite direction on the final swing.

if you watch shane, he tucks his elbow in too. i believe that he sidearms it for effortless power just like throwing a baseball. im messing with it and you easily find power. the first couple weeks were really awkard and felt really innacurate but then something clicked and i found accuracy. try sidearming sometime. your elbow just automatically tucks in.

ADAM HENSON
01-10-2015, 08:18 PM
Thanks for sharing, nice..