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Mr. Wilson
04-08-2005, 08:07 AM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?

Dave

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 08:14 AM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?

Dave


Two reasons: If there are TV sets on while the matches are running, they'll constantly be arguing about whether it should be tuned into a sports show or a food and gardening station,

Or, the woman will start nitpicking the male opponents for leaving their cues, chalk, towels, and glasses all over the place and not keeping them in order.

Williebetmore
04-08-2005, 08:17 AM
Two reasons: If there are TV sets on while the matches are running, they'll constantly be arguing about whether it should be tuned into a sports show or a food and gardening station,

Or, the woman will start nitpicking the male opponents for leaving their cues, chalk, towels, and glasses all over the place and not keeping them in order.

D'maker,
I'm glad you refrained from mentioning their complaints about the guys finishing too soon (their matches that is).

MrLucky
04-08-2005, 08:17 AM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?

Dave


Perhaps the mens division does not want to be shown up by females :D actually you are right on and it makes no sense I beleive if they were matched up it would be a great thing for pools image and appeal to new groups of people! :D

Pete
04-08-2005, 08:18 AM
I saw Karen, and Julley there. They didn't win that day, but they competed.
Pete

Kevin Lindstrom
04-08-2005, 08:31 AM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?

Dave

I too have wondered about this. I would like to see how well the top women players could and or should be able to compete against the men. Years ago it seemed as though the safety play of the men was so much better than that of the women but now the women do and are able to play much better safeties as well. You would think with pool being more of a "touch" type of game rather than a "physical" type of game that the men and women's games should be more equal. I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me on this but I wonder WHY the pro men are much "stronger" players than the women.
Is it that men have more "killer" instinct than women or is it a left/right brain thing or just what? I would like to hear men and women opinions on this topic.
All in all I still overall like the fact that the pro men and women events are seperated.

Nostroke
04-08-2005, 08:34 AM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?

Dave

There doesn't need to be but there is. There is a market for it and it's working fairly well. What sport doesn't have a women's division? Many have Junior and Senior divisions too. Even Chess has a Women's World Championship since 1927.

That doesn't mean there isn't room for a truly open tournament. The US Open and the World Pool Championship are both closed to women. Many women would like to compete in these events. I know three women who tried to enter qualifiers for the World Pool Championship last year and were denied entry.

I think maybe the UPA events are open to women but you have to sign their contract which conflicts with the WPBA contract. If not, you can bet your ass, at minimum, Karen Corr and Julie would enter every one possible.

Williebetmore
04-08-2005, 08:40 AM
You would think with pool being more of a "touch" type of game rather than a "physical" type of game that the men and women's games should be more equal. .

KL,
Nine ball IS a physical game. The break is by far the most important shot in 9-ball. The women can definitely compete on even terms during the rest of the game, but they are at a HUGE disadvantage in the break department. Give Jeanetee or Allison or Karen a designated breaker and watch the backers get in line behind them.

k-carson
04-08-2005, 08:45 AM
not to take anything away from the current women professionals but
i feel fewer women ever start playing the game therefor they are
the " cream of a smaller crop "

Kevin Lindstrom
04-08-2005, 08:54 AM
KL,
Nine ball IS a physical game. The break is by far the most important shot in 9-ball. The women can definitely compete on even terms during the rest of the game, but they are at a HUGE disadvantage in the break department. Give Jeanetee or Allison or Karen a designated breaker and watch the backers get in line behind them.

I believe even Corey Duele would disagree with this as you must see his effective "soft break". With or without the differences in breaks I would take Eferen, Earl, Johnny, Corey and quite a few other men over even the top 3 women and feel confident that the men would win me the money. In addtion I feel that the difference between the men and women get even greater if we were to take the ranked numbered 10-20 top men and women a match them up for the cash. In most instances my cash would be behind the men. I am not trying to offend anyone here with my comments just trying to figure out what it is that seperates the talent or ability of the men from the women in the game of pool.

MrLucky
04-08-2005, 09:18 AM
KL,
Nine ball IS a physical game. The break is by far the most important shot in 9-ball. The women can definitely compete on even terms during the rest of the game, but they are at a HUGE disadvantage in the break department. Give Jeanetee or Allison or Karen a designated breaker and watch the backers get in line behind them.

nine ball and 8 ball have 2 types of breaks hard and soft a hard break except in experienced hands give upcue control to power! softer allows for control! :D

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 09:31 AM
Anytime you pit men and women against each other in a sport it has great fan and media appeal. Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs had blockbuster ratings; whenever Michelle Wie or Annika Sorenstam play in a PGA event attendance swells beyond capacity and the newpapers can't write enough print; even when Joey Buttafucco boxed and beat the shit out of the big hot looking female wrestler champion ratings rose.

The bottom line is most everyone would like to see it, but the two genders within the professional pool world shy away from it due to their egos, fear of loss, and humiliation they might suffer from a beating. And it works both ways.

MrLucky
04-08-2005, 09:35 AM
Perhaps the mens division does not want to be shown up by females :D actually you are right on and it makes no sense I beleive if they were matched up it would be a great thing for pools image and appeal to new groups of people! :D


I sadly believe that the disparity in payoffs for the two different events needs to be addressed also ! :confused: though obviously the womans division would certainly gain by combining matches dollar wise! :p

Mr. Wilson
04-08-2005, 09:40 AM
IIRC, Eferen weighs all of 95# and has a monster break.

Mr. Pagulayan is also diminutive to say the least.

From appearances only, I would put my money on the average housewife if they had a throwdown :)



Where would the trade off in size account for raw skill?

IMO, the average woman is a considerably larger in size, if not weight than either of these men.

It would seem a question of skill then.

Could it really be as simple as there are so few women in the sport that they would be non-existent if they had to compete strictly on skill alone?

Dave

Mike Templeton
04-08-2005, 09:43 AM
Perhaps the mens division does not want to be shown up by females :D actually you are right on and it makes no sense I beleive if they were matched up it would be a great thing for pools image and appeal to new groups of people! :D

I sadly believe that the disparity in payoffs for the two different events needs to be addressed also ! :confused: though obviously the womans division would certainly gain by combining matches dollar wise! :p
Boy, Mr. Lucky. You must really be P_Whipped :D

Mike

MrLucky
04-08-2005, 09:53 AM
Boy, Mr. Lucky. You must really be P_Whipped :D

Mike

Well Mike as a single retired man I am seriously satisfied with my "P" quota! but I somehow miss how that relates to being whipped (a term I usually reserve for honey do married guys! LOL! ) when I state a fact such as the difference in money for each division due to some mens archaic ego and mental issues ! :confused:
:D




and yes I use a hard tip on my cue ! always have and always will! :D

OldHasBeen
04-08-2005, 09:55 AM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)
For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.
Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?
Dave

Dave - WHY WOULD THE WOMEN WANT TO PLAY WITH THE MEN?
They are currently the only REAL winners of the tournament $. They have found a good way to market their product and are the most successful as far as sponsorship, viewer ship, and endorsements.
What do they need the men for? The men don't or won't WORK TOGETHER for the future. They are only interested in today & tomorrow and anything that takes cooperation and doesn’t treat them like primadonnas, they won't get involved in.

TY & GL

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 10:01 AM
Well Mike as a single retired man I am seriously satisfied with my "P" quota! but I somehow miss how that relates to being whipped (a term I usually reserve for honey do married guys! LOL! ) when I state a fact such as the difference in money for each division due to some mens archaic ego and mental issues ! :confused:
:D




and yes I use a hard tip on my cue ! always have and always will! :D


One doesn't necessarily have to be married at the time to be PW'd. Remember, just like potty training, it lasts a lifetime. A true sign is when a man doesn't even know that he is. :p (I'm not thinking that any of the female posters on here would classify me as such-fact is...Mike would have to shut the forum down for a couple of days to clear that thread out if a poll was taken) :D

landshark77
04-08-2005, 10:14 AM
Ummm, maybe SJM could confirm this or deny this, but didn't the women and men play together on tour in the past???

I guess fact of the matter is why would they want to play together, currently? I mean look at the men's tour and the mess they have. No one will work together; it is all about greed, IMO. Just the constant scheduling conflicts indicate that to me. Sure, the WPBA has its problems, but it is successful. Several studies have concluded that pool's popularity is on the rise due to the WPBA's success. I don't see why something that does well would want to partner up with something that is frankly a mess.

MrLucky
04-08-2005, 10:17 AM
Ummm, maybe SJM could confirm this or deny this, but didn't the women and men play together on tour in the past???

I guess fact of the matter is why would they want to play together, currently? I mean look at the men's tour and the mess they have. No one will work together; it is all about greed, IMO. Just the constant scheduling conflicts indicate that to me. Sure, the WPBA has its problems, but it is successful. Several studies have concluded that pool's popularity is on the rise due to the WPBA's success. I don't see why something that does well would want to partner up with something that is frankly a mess.

how about we start our own tour ? :D

CaptainJR
04-08-2005, 10:31 AM
As far as men playing women I think the big question is, are you going to do better by winning or by losing. Now we all know that if your going to lose, you don't let on like you did it on purpose or that you didn't give it your best effort. I've seen some big smiles when I've fooled around enough that a gal beats me. Then they always say 'You just left me win, didn't you?' They say it as a question rather than a statement because they want to hear it, they want to hear you say, 'Nope, you beat me'. Then the smile gets even bigger. The bigger the smile, the better chance of getting lucky. Not many of them smile if you win. :D

Kevin Lindstrom
04-08-2005, 10:42 AM
As far as men playing women I think the big question is, are you going to do better by winning or by losing. Now we all know that if your going to lose, you don't let on like you did it on purpose or that you didn't give it your best effort. I've seen some big smiles when I've fooled around enough that a gal beats me. Then they always say 'You just left me win, didn't you?' They say it as a question rather than a statement because they want to hear it, they want to hear you say, 'Nope, you beat me'. Then the smile gets even bigger. The bigger the smile, the better chance of getting lucky. Not many of them smile if you win. :D

Do you think this would happen on an ESPN televised tournament event??????
The only luck you would have would be bad luck because you are now either in the losers bracket or worse yet knocked out of the tournament.

CaptainJR
04-08-2005, 10:49 AM
Do you think this would happen on an ESPN televised tournament event??????
The only luck you would have would be bad luck because you are now either in the losers bracket or worse yet knocked out of the tournament.


Relax Kevin, just a little light humor. Obviously I was talking about casual play not TV matches.

Williebetmore
04-08-2005, 11:01 AM
I believe even Corey Duele would disagree with this as you must see his effective "soft break". With or without the differences in breaks I would take Eferen, Earl, Johnny, Corey and quite a few other men over even the top 3 women and feel confident that the men would win me the money. In addtion I feel that the difference between the men and women get even greater if we were to take the ranked numbered 10-20 top men and women a match them up for the cash. In most instances my cash would be behind the men. I am not trying to offend anyone here with my comments just trying to figure out what it is that seperates the talent or ability of the men from the women in the game of pool.

KL,
I think you and the other poster misunderstand the so-called "soft break." Under certain table conditions you may find a place on the table and a speed at which you can reliably make a ball and get position; but I'm not sure how often this occurs (it DEFINITELY does not work on all tables or with all racks). I noticed at DCC Corey was breaking like everyone else. What do you suggest the women do if the soft break isn't working? I will tell you that in long gambling sessions or long races the power breakers have a HUGE advantage over the soft breakers. When those players like Rodney Morris or Francisco Bustamante or George Breedlove are making 2, 3, or 4 balls on the break they have a BIG advantage over the soft-breakers. The fewer balls on the table, the higher the runout percentage for the player with control of the table. On any type of medium to loose equipment, these power players will have a big advantage over the soft-breakers, and a huge advantage over the women (who do not have the option of ramping up the speed to adjust to table conditions).

I will also agree that there is a definite difference in skill level for women outside the top 5; I like the "cream of a smaller crop" analogy.

Jude Rosenstock
04-08-2005, 11:08 AM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?

Dave

The women won't/shouldn't/and legally can't compete among the men. The WPBA forbids its members from competing in most national men's events, especially if it will have televised matches. They have the better product and they don't want it diluted. A handful do compete in the Joss Tour/Tri-State Tour (local events). Trust me, Karen Corr is a tough draw in any tournament she plays in. Ask any of the women. Ask any of the men. She may not be Efren Reyes but she's no slouch, either.

landshark77
04-08-2005, 11:19 AM
On any type of medium to loose equipment, these power players will have a big advantage over the soft-breakers, and a huge advantage over the women (who do not have the option of ramping up the speed to adjust to table conditions).

I will also agree that there is a definite difference in skill level for women outside the top 5; I like the "cream of a smaller crop" analogy.

My 3 cents.... I know of at least two women players whose breaks can hang with the boys, namely Rousey and Nelson. I also want to point out that at the DCC in '04 Rousey hung with the boys extremely well...finished 20th. Plus, while Corr hasn't scored a first place finish on the Joss tour, she does get up there in the ranks. I think there are pros and cons for both sexes in relationship to playability, but outside of the break, one's ability to pocket balls, gain position, and deliver perfect safeties are what affects the out come of the game, not one's gender.

Man, hasn't this been discussed like at least every 4 months??? :confused:

catscradle
04-08-2005, 11:50 AM
My 3 cents.... I know of at least two women players whose breaks can hang with the boys, namely Rousey and Nelson. I also want to point out that at the DCC in '04 Rousey hung with the boys extremely well...finished 20th. Plus, while Corr hasn't scored a first place finish on the Joss tour, she does get up there in the ranks. I think there are pros and cons for both sexes in relationship to playability, but outside of the break, one's ability to pocket balls, gain position, and deliver perfect safeties are what affects the out come of the game, not one's gender.

Man, hasn't this been discussed like at least every 4 months??? :confused:

Actually I think Karen HAS come in 1st in a Joss Tour event, maybe more than one.

Without opening the "why" can of worms, IMO the top women can not compete long-term succcessfully with the top men and further the average women is even less capable of competing with the average man. Whether it is due to physiology or environment is really a moot point, the fact is at this point in time they can't compete evenly.

Also judging from the limited number of women's events I've seen, which I admit is a very small sample, it seems like the quality of women's play drops off quicker as you go down the ranks than it does with the men. Why would Allison or Karen want to go compete with men and be just another player when they can be the top of the WPBA world. Even if they were as good as the top men they could not possibly dominate as they do in the WPBA. No single man dominates the men's world of pool why should anyone think any one or two women will.

Oddly enough I think the relative scarcity of women players contributes to the success of the WPBA. I think there are just so many skilled men that they are always pealing off and starting competing tours and organizations (sp?), but the women can't afford to split up into competing organizations and they're smart enough to be aware of these and maintain a cohesive single organization.

Williebetmore
04-08-2005, 11:54 AM
My 3 cents.... I know of at least two women players whose breaks can hang with the boys, namely Rousey and Nelson.Man, hasn't this been discussed like at least every 4 months??? :confused:

LS77,
You know I'm a big fan of Sarah's; but I've never seen any of the women break at near the speed of the men. In our recent "pool school", several of the women pro's were clocked at 19mph at their best (trying for their fastest break). Helena T (at the same table) achieved only 21 mph. The men pro's break around 25 or 26 mph during competition (including George B., who at the same tables tried 2 breaks for maximum speed, and clocked 34 mph then 37 mph). Do you think Sarah and Tiffany break that much harder than Helena?? When I observed Sarah at DCC 2 years ago, her break looked great, but still not as hard as most of the men - maybe she will weigh in on the subject (I value her opinion over mine).

SUPERSTAR
04-08-2005, 12:00 PM
The women won't/shouldn't/and legally can't compete among the men. The WPBA forbids its members from competing in most national men's events, especially if it will have televised matches. They have the better product and they don't want it diluted. A handful do compete in the Joss Tour/Tri-State Tour (local events). Trust me, Karen Corr is a tough draw in any tournament she plays in. Ask any of the women. Ask any of the men. She may not be Efren Reyes but she's no slouch, either.

You know, i watched her chop up MIKA a couple of times at JOSS events.
Like she was his NEMESIS. Pretty funny when i think back on it.
She was like any other player....she got out when she had to.


I remember Mika actually talking to himself afterwards after one loss.
I think the time at SNOOKERS a few years ago, she was down a pretty big margin, and came back to win. It was a great match.

Shaking his head. (not that he's known as the greatest sportsman when he loses), but he definitely had some respect for the fact that she tortured him.

SUPERSTAR

Teacherman
04-08-2005, 12:08 PM
They can all get played at Teachers.

christyd
04-08-2005, 12:17 PM
They can all get played at Teachers.

Be careful what you wish for Teacherman. :D

jjinfla
04-08-2005, 12:20 PM
Dave - WHY WOULD THE WOMEN WANT TO PLAY WITH THE MEN?
They are currently the only REAL winners of the tournament $. They have found a good way to market their product and are the most successful as far as sponsorship, viewer ship, and endorsements.
What do they need the men for? The men don't or won't WORK TOGETHER for the future. They are only interested in today & tomorrow and anything that takes cooperation and doesn’t treat them like primadonnas, they won't get involved in.

TY & GL

Exactly!!!!! The top half dozen women are a ball better than the next dozen and two or three balls better than the rest.

Wouldn't you love those odds when the top prize is 10 big ones?

They would be NUTS to start playing the men where they would be one, two or three ball underdogs against a whole lot of men.

Just ask Grady what he would play Allison for if they ever played for real. And she is the top lady right now.

Jake

landshark77
04-08-2005, 12:21 PM
LS77,
You know I'm a big fan of Sarah's; but I've never seen any of the women break at near the speed of the men. In our recent "pool school", several of the women pro's were clocked at 19mph at their best (trying for their fastest break). Helena T (at the same table) achieved only 21 mph. The men pro's break around 25 or 26 mph during competition (including George B., who at the same tables tried 2 breaks for maximum speed, and clocked 34 mph then 37 mph). Do you think Sarah and Tiffany break that much harder than Helena?? When I observed Sarah at DCC 2 years ago, her break looked great, but still not as hard as most of the men - maybe she will weigh in on the subject (I value her opinion over mine).

Willie, I can not speculate on Tiffany's break speed, but Sarah has had documented cases in the EXTREMELY high 20's (close to 30).

Kevin Lindstrom
04-08-2005, 12:22 PM
Actually I think Karen HAS come in 1st in a Joss Tour event, maybe more than one.

Without opening the "why" can of worms, IMO the top women can not compete long-term succcessfully with the top men and further the average women is even less capable of competing with the average man. Whether it is due to physiology or environment is really a moot point, the fact is at this point in time they can't compete evenly.

Also judging from the limited number of women's events I've seen, which I admit is a very small sample, it seems like the quality of women's play drops off quicker as you go down the ranks than it does with the men. Why would Allison or Karen want to go compete with men and be just another player when they can be the top of the WPBA world. Even if they were as good as the top men they could not possibly dominate as they do in the WPBA. No single man dominates the men's world of pool why should anyone think any one or two women will.

Oddly enough I think the relative scarcity of women players contributes to the success of the WPBA. I think there are just so many skilled men that they are always pealing off and starting competing tours and organizations (sp?), but the women can't afford to split up into competing organizations and they're smart enough to be aware of these and maintain a cohesive single organization.

well said and I agree whole heartidly

Teacherman
04-08-2005, 12:24 PM
Be careful what you wish for Teacherman. :D

Were you lurking?

Jude Rosenstock
04-08-2005, 12:35 PM
Actually I think Karen HAS come in 1st in a Joss Tour event, maybe more than one.


Unless my memory is failing me, no she hasn't. She has done very, very well though. I believe she took 2nd in the Ocean State a few years ago.

Koop
04-08-2005, 12:42 PM
Unless my memory is failing me, no she hasn't. She has done very, very well though. I believe she took 2nd in the Ocean State a few years ago.

Jude,

How's it going. I'm almost positive I remember her double-dipping Rempe in one of the Joss events. I can almost guarantee that she has won at least one event.

Koop

Jude Rosenstock
04-08-2005, 12:43 PM
You know, i watched her chop up MIKA a couple of times at JOSS events.
Like she was his NEMESIS. Pretty funny when i think back on it.
She was like any other player....she got out when she had to.


I remember Mika actually talking to himself afterwards after one loss.
I think the time at SNOOKERS a few years ago, she was down a pretty big margin, and came back to win. It was a great match.

Shaking his head. (not that he's known as the greatest sportsman when he loses), but he definitely had some respect for the fact that she tortured him.

SUPERSTAR


A few years ago, Karen played in the Ocean State and lost her first-round match to Robert Saez in a field of about 100 players. She didn't get a bye yet proceeded to tear-up the losers' side beating Tony Robles to finish 5th. For those of you that haven't been graced by Tony's presence, the man plays JAM-UP! Only champions beat Tony Robles. Only champions.

I wasn't there when she beat Flaco in the semis the following year. When she was up 8-0 and finally missed, Flaco turned and said to her, "So it's okay if I win one?"

On top of all that, she's nothing but class. She's quiet, reserved and respectful. She lets her game speak for itself.

Jude Rosenstock
04-08-2005, 12:47 PM
Jude,

How's it going. I'm almost positive I remember her double-dipping Rempe in one of the Joss events. I can almost guarantee that she has won at least one event.

Koop


Hey Dave, it's going well. Honestly, I can't remember her winning one. It definately wasn't this season (I checked) and I can't remember any seasons prior. She has come close though, I can remember that much.

Koop
04-08-2005, 12:50 PM
Hey Dave, it's going well. Honestly, I can't remember her winning one. It definately wasn't this season (I checked) and I can't remember any seasons prior. She has come close though, I can remember that much.

Found it.

http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showtourney2003.cfm?eventnum=79

It was a while ago but it was over Rempe in the finals.

Dave

Fred Agnir
04-08-2005, 12:56 PM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Dave

So that accomplished women players who cannot (by skill) compete against the men on a regular basis have a place to compete heavily. I don't understand why this question comes up so much. In the present state of skill sets, if we had no women's tour, we'd have very few women professionals. Is that what we're after?

As of this writing, the professional women can play in Viking Tour events, Joss Tour, SE 9-ball tour etc. I have no idea whether or not they can participate in the UPA sanctioned events. But, let's be real about it. They need their own tour to be able to grow their side of the sport as well as grow their talent.

They have been free to play in the Derby City Classic, the greates stomping ground of skill for pool.

On the amateur side, without a women's division, several of these excellent female players would never have a chance at competing let alone winning and gaining national exposure, tournament titles, and all the benefits that come with it. Do you really think we should shut that avenue down? Is that what you're asking? Or do you just want to see how some of the top women stack up against the men?

Fred

Fred Agnir
04-08-2005, 01:01 PM
LS77,
You know I'm a big fan of Sarah's; but I've never seen any of the women break at near the speed of the men. In our recent "pool school", several of the women pro's were clocked at 19mph at their best (trying for their fastest break). Helena T (at the same table) achieved only 21 mph. The men pro's break around 25 or 26 mph during competition (including George B., who at the same tables tried 2 breaks for maximum speed, and clocked 34 mph then 37 mph). Do you think Sarah and Tiffany break that much harder than Helena?? When I observed Sarah at DCC 2 years ago, her break looked great, but still not as hard as most of the men - maybe she will weigh in on the subject (I value her opinion over mine).

Both Tiffany and Sarah can break over 26 mph. Tiffany would walk into VF and win that break contest every time. Her highest posting may have been 28 mph, but certainly over 26.

Fred

Fred Agnir
04-08-2005, 01:03 PM
while Corr hasn't scored a first place finish on the Joss tour, she does get up there in the ranks.
Karen won a Joss tour event and has placed in the top three several times.

Fred

landshark77
04-08-2005, 01:06 PM
Karen won a Joss tour event and has placed in the top three several times.

Fred

And so I have been corrected. Thanx Fred and everyone else who pointed this out. I shall now go hang my head in shame. :(

Jude Rosenstock
04-08-2005, 01:07 PM
Karen won a Joss tour event and has placed in the top three several times.

Fred

I stand corrected.

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=812


Turns out she did it in 2003. I can't believe I didn't remember this.

dedapr
04-08-2005, 01:17 PM
In other sports everyone competes in the same tournament. The open champion is the highest score (man, woman, jr or vet etc.). Then there is a womans champ, a senior champ, jr champ etc.

I think some similar system in billiards would be very good for the game.

Wally in Cincy
04-08-2005, 01:23 PM
In other sports everyone competes in the same tournament.



like golf and tennis and archery and bowling and........????

Fred Agnir
04-08-2005, 01:27 PM
In other sports everyone competes in the same tournament. The open champion is the highest score (man, woman, jr or vet etc.). Then there is a womans champ, a senior champ, jr champ etc.

I think some similar system in billiards would be very good for the game.

There's a veteran's champion? Or did you mean a veterinarian champion?

Even poker, one of the very few true open competitions (cuz it's mostly mental, as opposed to, say, pool) they don't do what you've described.

Fred

elliott
04-08-2005, 01:40 PM
When did they let women start playing pool, anyways?

Jack Flanagan
04-08-2005, 01:53 PM
When did they let women start playing pool, anyways?

when a few guys stopped dragging their knuckles on the ground,,,,LOL

Johnnyt
04-08-2005, 02:20 PM
I would say that only about 25% of the women on the WPBA Tour now could be competative on the top men's tour's. Like Allision Fisher / Kelly Fisher / Karen Corr / Jeanette Lee and a few more. but in no way would any of them be ranked in the top 20 at the end of a season. There are just too many top men players out there. Just IMHO. Johnnyt

sdtonyc
04-08-2005, 02:32 PM
Hmm...

Perhaps it is not yet fair to compare the relative skills of men vs. women professional pool players. Although the popularity of pool is picking up quickly for women, many more men play the game presently than do women, and this has always been true. I think that most will agree with me that for any given pool hall, at any given time, serious men's players will greatly outnumber their serious female counterparts. Naturally, given a much larger pool of total players to choose from, you will be able to find many more male players that play at a high (pro) level than female players. I think that in reality the numbers reflect this. For example: many here seem to agree and Joss Tour results will reflect that Karen Corr can hang with the men's pros; by that rationale, Allison Fisher could probably do the same since she has beaten Karen with some regularity in competition. Now, I think that most here would agree that Allison and Karen have thus far proven to be a cut above the rest of the female pros. So the question is: how many more men play pool seriously than do women out there in the world? 15 to 1? 20 to 1? Let's say it's 15 to 1. Multiply 15 by 2 to get 30, and that's how many Karen Corr/Allison Fisher caliber players the women would have if they had as many participants in the game. And you can bet that out of those 30 Corr/Fisher clones, there would be one or two female players that stand out above the rest.

Bottom line: I just don't think it's fair to judge skills between the sexes in pool until the total number of men and women who are playing pool is more even.

sniper
04-08-2005, 02:49 PM
Maybe men vs women is something that pool could use? Or how about a mixed scotch doubles event? A few years ago I saw Ga-Young Kim give Danny Hewitt a run for his money, 11-8 I believe the final score was.

DaveK
04-08-2005, 03:10 PM
When did they let women start playing pool, anyways?

In all seriousness, it was not all that long ago when women were not allowed into pool halls. They're still not in the Augusta National Golf Club membership, sorry Martha ;)

Dave

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 04:16 PM
Both Tiffany and Sarah can break over 26 mph. Tiffany would walk into VF and win that break contest every time. Her highest posting may have been 28 mph, but certainly over 26.

Fred


I think I might be smelling fish....yep...I smell fish alright. As in embellished big fish story of the one that got away. 28 miles an hour is one hell of a break for anyone, even a strong male player. For either one of them to be breaking at that speed or even 26 would be kinda like a woman throwing a 90 m.p.h. fastball on a baseball mound; long jumping 26 feet; pole vaulting 18.5 ft; and running the 100 meter in 10 seconds flat. IT AIN'T BEING DONE AND IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, not in this century at least. I would really like to see this done and verified for a fact with a 100% accurately calibrated speed gun.
For me....I'll bet it all that it's a "no can do"

Nostroke
04-08-2005, 04:41 PM
I think I might be smelling fish....yep...I smell fish alright. As in embellished big fish story of the one that got away. 28 miles an hour is one hell of a break for anyone, even a strong male player. For either one of them to be breaking at that speed or even 26 would be kinda like a woman throwing a 90 m.p.h. fastball on a baseball mound; long jumping 26 feet; pole vaulting 18.5 ft; and running the 100 meter in 10 seconds flat. IT AIN'T BEING DONE AND IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, not in this century at least. I would really like to see this done and verified for a fact with a 100% accurately calibrated speed gun.
For me....I'll bet it all that it's a "no can do"

I saw sarah radared at VF in 2003 or so and it was definitely over 24.6 which 'my horse' did. I dont think she even hit them more than one time as she beat the 24.6 first crack IIRC and took the cash.

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 05:11 PM
I saw sarah radared at VF in 2003 or so and it was definitely over 24.6 which 'my horse' did. I dont think she even hit them more than one time as she beat the 24.6 first crack IIRC and took the cash.


That's great...but the difference between that and 28 is light years away. Sure you think...hey, that's only 3-4 mph, but in break speed that's almost like measuring seconds in an Olympic speed race, and THAT'S considerable.
1 second in a 100 meter dash for them is about a 10- 12 meter difference or 15 yards in distance, that's one hell of a gap to have the fastest man in the world blowing off the fastest woman in the world by 15 - 18 yards when there's ONLY about 1.5 seconds between them in time.

landshark77
04-08-2005, 05:17 PM
That's great...but the difference between that and 28 is light years away. Sure you think...hey, that's only 3-4 mph, but in break speed that's almost like measuring seconds in an Olympic speed race, and THAT'S considerable.
1 second in a 100 meter dash for them is about a 10- 12 meter difference or 15 yards in distance, that's one hell of a gap to have the fastest man in the world blowing off the fastest woman in the world by 15 - 18 yards when there's ONLY about 1.5 seconds between them in time.

Sarah has discussed her break speed in her forum in several threads. You can view them here (http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/search.php?searchid=130677). I don't believe Fred would speak of something he is not sure of, so I would say he is correct about Tiffany's break speed. All I know is that they both have one hell of a break.

Nostroke
04-08-2005, 05:20 PM
They have been free to play in the Derby City Classic, the greates stomping ground of skill for pool.

Fred

No more Fred- The WPBA barred the ladies from the DCC this year even though the DCC was willing to pay the WPBA Recognition or Sanctioning fee.

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 05:23 PM
Sarah has discussed her break speed in her forum in several threads. You can view them here (http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/search.php?searchid=130677). I don't believe Fred would speak of something he is not sure of, so I would say he is correct about Tiffany's break speed. All I know is that they both have one hell of a break.


OK...good post LS. Sarah said 27 on a 9', the 7' doesn't count. I'd like to have it proved and would be willing to either win or lose some money on it.

As far as Fred goes, I have a lot of respect for him, but he's made some boo-boo's on occasion and he isn't always right or the final word. I'm sure as hell not either, but I'll go out on a limb to find out.

gulfportdoc
04-08-2005, 06:10 PM
For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.


Dave

Because if the women and men pros played in the same tournaments, none of the women could make a living from tournament prizes. None of them would ever win. Only 2 or 3 of them would ever cash significantly.

The WBPA tour appears to be a highly insulated and structured tour for the benefit of a few top women players. If the top men pros were allowed to play in those good paying events, none of the women would ever be in the top 10.

Doc

Nostroke
04-08-2005, 06:31 PM
Because if the women and men pros played in the same tournaments, none of the women could make a living from tournament prizes. None of them would ever win. Only 2 or 3 of them would ever cash significantly.

The WBPA tour appears to be a highly insulated and structured tour for the benefit of a few top women players. If the top men pros were allowed to play in those good paying events, none of the women would ever be in the top 10.

Doc

I think the top ten would be a lock within a few tournaments. Allison has only played in two Men's events and won them both though they were regional events. (Viking and I forget) I think 2 for 2 in regional open events equals a top 10 in a National event sooner or later. Also as someone else pointed out, Sarah got 20th out of 300+ at the DCC and she is not yet Allisons speed.

Oh Yeah and didnt Jenny Lee who has never even won pro status in the WPBA get a 9th at Reno?

Yes she did

http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2002.cfm?playernum=1473

StormHotRod300
04-08-2005, 09:27 PM
Ok, i had this discussion last summer with the owner of the pool hall i frequent, about if women can compete with men in tournaments.

And basically everything came down to the power and control of the Mens break.

Not taking anything away from the Womens Tour, but the overall strength of the mens tour is unreal.

If you look at how long some of the guys in the Mens Tournaments have been around for, like Efren, and Johnny, or Rodney, they have been around for yrs and play against the Top players all the time.

Now if you look back at the competion on the womens side, its basically, your either in the top 16 all the time or your fighting for the left overs.

and you can go back several yrs in the womens tour and look at how the competion faired, in the early 90's it was Ewa, Loree Jon, Vivian, Robin Bell, basically winning everything, and then Gerda was starting to win some tournaments, along with Jeanette. And for a bit Robin Dodson.

Then 96' Allison Fisher came over and basically took over winning lol.

Now Allison doesnt win every event, but for the most part she is always consider'd the favorite to win any event she enters.

On the mens side of things, its like a free for all, and anyone can beat anyone. Now you always have your exceptions, like Efren, who has been on a tear lately.

But its always like every so often someone comes outa nowhere and is hot for a couple months and then someone else is hot for a couple months, and so on.

I myself, would love to see a Men Vs Womens situation, like if they would run the Mens US Open and the Womens US Open at the same time, and then have both winners have a Battle of the Sexes Finals on TV.

but thats just my 2cents

Timberly
04-08-2005, 10:21 PM
And basically everything came down to the power and control of the Mens break.

Not taking anything away from the Womens Tour, but the overall strength of the mens tour is unreal.

I myself, would love to see a Men Vs Womens situation, like if they would run the Mens US Open and the Womens US Open at the same time, and then have both winners have a Battle of the Sexes Finals on TV.

but thats just my 2cents
I agree on the break thing. I've been told many times that I break like a man and I never fail to raise men's eyebrows in the poolhall or a bar when I break. I might not play as strong as the women on tour but my break is just as strong if not stronger than quite a few of them. That being said, the men far out break me. Last wkend I had the pleasure of banging the balls around with a current touring pro and there were a couple of old guys on the rail watching... I snapped it pretty good and made 3 balls with a decent spread and one of the guys eyes got real big and he made a comment about it. The next game my friend broke and I looked like "I break like a girl". Men are physically stronger than women... that's just a way of life.

I like the idea of a battle of the sexes final on tv. I think it would draw a good crowd, esp since the women are on ESPN so much these days.

Fred Agnir
04-09-2005, 10:15 AM
OK...good post LS. Sarah said 27 on a 9', the 7' doesn't count. I'd like to have it proved and would be willing to either win or lose some money on it.

As far as Fred goes, I have a lot of respect for him, but he's made some boo-boo's on occasion and he isn't always right or the final word. I'm sure as hell not either, but I'll go out on a limb to find out.

Nobody should ever take what I say as anything other than my opinion or my reporting. That being said, as I said previously, Tiffany won the VF break speed contest pretty much every time she entered. That's at least four times, as has been reported previously. And they documented the break speed with Sardo's radar gun. The break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball, so the table size doesn't matter. If Sarah did 27 mph, then that's even better than what I reported.

What more proof could you possibly need? Maybe seeing it for yourself?

Fred

Fred Agnir
04-09-2005, 10:19 AM
No more Fred- The WPBA barred the ladies from the DCC this year even though the DCC was willing to pay the WPBA Recognition or Sanctioning fee.

WPBA aside, women are always free to enter the DCC.

I hope next year, the WPBA allow their players to play. That would be nice.

Fred

drivermaker
04-09-2005, 10:59 AM
Nobody should ever take what I say as anything other than my opinion or my reporting. That being said, as I said previously, Tiffany won the VF break speed contest pretty much every time she entered. That's at least four times, as has been reported previously. And they documented the break speed with Sardo's radar gun. The break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball, so the table size doesn't matter. If Sarah did 27 mph, then that's even better than what I reported.

What more proof could you possibly need? Maybe seeing it for yourself?

Fred


Well Fred, I'd like a lot more explained about the way it's measured.

What do you mean by "the break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball"? Are they measuring the actual speed of the ball coming off the tip of the cue, or are they measuring the speed of the cue coming into the ball? You can actually get two measurements, which is it? (Don't guess if you really don't know)

And how did Sarah come up with 2 different speeds on varying sized tables that are listed in her thread? What kind of radar gun were they using then? Are all break speeds measured with the same make, model, style of radar gun for both MEN and women at all the different events THROUGHOUT the country at ALL times?

Do none of these radar guns actually measure the speed of the ball as it's traveling down the table?

All I know is last year I was talking to a radar detector CEO/President/expert about the possibility of having a portable and inexpensive unit produced for sale just for pool and it's easier said than done. All of the gadgets that are on the market right now which are used for baseball, golf, auto racing and many other applications are worthless when it comes to pool. The reason is they're not calibrated with the correct frequency for such a short distance.
In addition to that, flourescent lights can play havoc with the frequencies and give false readings. We never were able to get it going and HE bagged the idea. I don't know what type of gun the Sardo is but I'd like to see that for myself first and whether it's the ONLY one used. Their frequencies and calibrations are all different.

I'd like to see them combine the radar gun with a decibel meter. Hell, maybe a decibel meter would be more accurate and should be the ONLY device used.
That will measure the actual impact, which is most important. All I know is when you're at a men's tournament and some of the biggest breakers out there hit the rack it has an entirely different sound than everyone else. It sounds like a cannon going off. Can you honestly compare the break of Sarah and Tiffany to those? And yes...I will have to see it for myself.

Just out of curiosity, what is Sarah and Tiffany's height and weight to make a comparison between them and Alex, Sambajon, or Bustamante?

Nostroke
04-09-2005, 11:07 AM
Well Fred, I'd like a lot more explained about the way it's measured.

What do you mean by "the break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball"? Are they measuring the actual speed of the ball coming off the tip of the cue, or are they measuring the speed of the cue coming into the ball? You can actually get two measurements, which is it? (Don't guess if you really don't know)

And how did Sarah come up with 2 different speeds on varying sized tables that are listed in her thread? What kind of radar gun were they using then? Are all break speeds measured with the same make, model, style of radar gun for both MEN and women at all the different events THROUGHOUT the country at ALL times?

Do none of these radar guns actually measure the speed of the ball as it's traveling down the table?

All I know is last year I was talking to a radar detector CEO/President/expert about the possibility of having a portable and inexpensive unit produced for sale just for pool and it's easier said than done. All of the gadgets that are on the market right now which are used for baseball, golf, auto racing and many other applications are worthless when it comes to pool. The reason is they're not calibrated with the correct frequency for such a short distance.
In addition to that, flourescent lights can play havoc with the frequencies and give false readings. We never were able to get it going and HE bagged the idea. I don't know what type of gun the Sardo is but I'd like to see that for myself first and whether it's the ONLY one used. Their frequencies and calibrations are all different.

I'd like to see them combine the radar gun with a decibel meter. Hell, maybe a decibel meter would be more accurate and should be the ONLY device used.
That will measure the actual impact, which is most important. All I know is when you're at a men's tournament and some of the biggest breakers out there hit the rack it has an entirely different sound than everyone else. It sounds like a cannon going off. Can you honestly compare the break of Sarah and Tiffany to those? And yes...I will have to see it for myself.

Just out of curiosity, what is Sarah and Tiffany's height and weight to make a comparison between them and Alex, Sambajon, or Bustamante?

I get around pretty much and the only guy i have ever seen measuring breaks in the last 5 years has been Carmine Sardo so id say, whatever it is, it's been apples to apples.

BTW-Have you seen/heard Sarah break?

drivermaker
04-09-2005, 11:12 AM
I get around pretty much and the only guy i have ever seen measuring breaks in the last 5 years has been Carmine Sardo so id say, whatever it is, it's been apples to apples.

BTW-Have you seen/heard Sarah break?


No I haven't seen/heard her break. I'd like to and if it's that much for real, I'll buy her a steak dinner and roasted crow for myself. (I've had it before although it isn't one of my favorite meals)

landshark77
04-09-2005, 11:34 AM
No I haven't seen/heard her break. I'd like to and if it's that much for real, I'll buy her a steak dinner and roasted crow for myself. (I've had it before although it isn't one of my favorite meals)

Looks like you are eating crow. :p Sarah, I will get a nice one off the side of the road...that away it is marinated real well! LMAO!

drivermaker
04-09-2005, 02:07 PM
Looks like you are eating crow. :p Sarah, I will get a nice one off the side of the road...that away it is marinated real well! LMAO!


I ain't eatin' nuttin' until I see and judge it for myself. I'll be looking for her appearance in my neck of the woods. You better hope you're not groupie leeching along....you WILL be getting some frogs and other things down your back along with gum in the hair. LOL

landshark77
04-09-2005, 06:23 PM
I ain't eatin' nuttin' until I see and judge it for myself. I'll be looking for her appearance in my neck of the woods. You better hope you're not groupie leeching along....you WILL be getting some frogs and other things down your back along with gum in the hair. LOL

Oh Drivermaker, you really know how to wow a lady. :rolleyes: Ah, you are single aren't you???

....thought so. :p

sarahrousey
04-09-2005, 08:32 PM
Alright....I just read this whole thread and I can weigh in a little bit. First off, the break...if it is controlled and you can hit them hard it is a good thing but it doesn't always work. You have to remember that the rack also makes a big difference. If you get a bad rack or if the table racks bad, maybe a softer break will work better. It is all about being consistant.

Now I have posted on this subject abou the difference between men and women and the game of pool tons of times. I have a feminist point of view. Women haven't been playing the game as long as the men. Women have been looked down upon in the pool world. When I walk in a pool room I don't get the same respect that a man would get walking into a pool room. Yes, things are changing. But it takes a strong woman to stick with pool putting up with a bunch of male pool players (no offense). Another thing....women have been taught to be nurturing and whatever instead of having killer instinct. Women are a little more emotional and worry more about outside things in my opinion. Granted that is not all women. I am agreeing that there is a difference between the games of men and women. I don't think it has to do with anything physical. Karen Corr wins tournaments and places well in big tournaments and she doesn't break hard. There are women that have super strokes...maybe not those of Efren or Larry Nevel...but we can draw our ball too. I think it is a matter of time before the women keep up with the men. If it is mental it is just believing in the fact that we are capable of keeping up with the men...confidence.

And drivermaker....I hope you are prepared to buy a steak dinner. I can get witnesses to prove how hard I can hit the balls and I can get even more witnesses to prove that I hit them harder when I was younger. In Valley Forge in 2002 I broke the balls 26.8 with control at the Sardo booth. I know I have hit them harder than that. In Vegas in 2003 on the bar box I came close to winning the men's break contest....I hit them 29 and 28.7. There were about 50 people watching. Maybe Chuck Raulston will read this...he was watching. Oh and they use the same radar gun that is used to calculate how fast a pitcher is pitching. It is all about timing. I was blessed with good timing. I can drive a golf ball a long way too....it is the same concept. And to clear up the size thing...I'm 5'1 and about 110 pounds...some of the Filipino players are smaller than me and break harder. Size doesn't matter.

Anyway...that is my little rant for right now.

Take care,
Sarah

StormHotRod300
04-10-2005, 02:55 AM
Sarah !!!!!!!!

This is why i love talking to Sarah :)

I have no doubt if Sarah was taller, she would be able to break harder. If you look at Sarah or Tiffany, they probably could break just as well as the guys, If it was all about a Power Break.

As to reply about what Sarah said about women getting respect in the pool hall, it does happen. A guy who shoots at the pool hall i goto, tried this back in december, he came in with this girl i think her name was Karen. And everyone i know says she shoots really good. Well this guy was playing her in 8ball for race to 5 for 25. Well needless to say he stopped after 3 sets of losing.

Now i have no doubt that if given the chance Sarah or Tiffany, could probably come very close to breaking 30mph on a break shot.

Also, now when the Guys do break over 30mph is it taken in account weather or not the CB stays on the table or is in position to shoot on the OB? Because whats the point of breaking at over 30mph if you cant control the CB?

I would put money on Sarah that she CAN break at the speeds she claims :)

drivermaker
04-10-2005, 06:24 AM
And drivermaker....I hope you are prepared to buy a steak dinner. I can get witnesses to prove how hard I can hit the balls and I can get even more witnesses to prove that I hit them harder when I was younger. In Valley Forge in 2002 I broke the balls 26.8 with control at the Sardo booth. I know I have hit them harder than that. In Vegas in 2003 on the bar box I came close to winning the men's break contest....I hit them 29 and 28.7. There were about 50 people watching. Maybe Chuck Raulston will read this...he was watching. Oh and they use the same radar gun that is used to calculate how fast a pitcher is pitching. It is all about timing. I was blessed with good timing. I can drive a golf ball a long way too....it is the same concept. And to clear up the size thing...I'm 5'1 and about 110 pounds...some of the Filipino players are smaller than me and break harder. Size doesn't matter.

Take care,
Sarah


Sarah, I'm not too concerned about all of those other witnesses...my eyes are the only ones that matter and I'd love to see it. Hell, we can also go to the driving range and maybe I'll even make you a high tech driver to hit it further. I guarantee no one else on the WPBA will hit it further than you afterwards. You'll be the "HAMMERIN' PIXIE" of all sports.

As far as dinner goes, I'll do that anyway. I alway thought you were a really decent chick with a lot of drive and determination. (That's anti-feminist talk for broad...I mean lady :D )

And oh yeah...do yourself a favor by moving heaven and earth in your schedule to go see Hal, not for me...not for him...but for you. ;) Promise?

jjinfla
04-10-2005, 06:42 AM
I think my money would be on Corey Deuel with his 12 mph break vs Sarah's 30mph break in a match.

A hard break means nothing if a ball doesn't fall and you have a shot on the next ball.

And I think someone did mention that a baseball radar gun would not be accurate on a pool table. It would be accurate for everyone being tested that day on that table but you could not then compare those readings to what we see on TV. They may be the same, or they may be lower or higher. And then of course you have to know when the gun was last calibrated.

Jake

MrLucky
04-10-2005, 06:50 AM
I think my money would be on Corey Deuel with his 12 mph break vs Sarah's 30mph break in a match.

A hard break means nothing if a ball doesn't fall and you have a shot on the next ball.

And I think someone did mention that a baseball radar gun would not be accurate on a pool table. It would be accurate for everyone being tested that day on that table but you could not then compare those readings to what we see on TV. They may be the same, or they may be lower or higher. And then of course you have to know when the gun was last calibrated.

Jake
:D as stated earlier in this post IMO! and from what a lot of BCA teachers also say, It is more important to keep CONTROL of the Cue Ball than it is to have the hardest break in town ! I used to break with power now I break with control and my win percentage is much higher than it was prior! :D

drivermaker
04-10-2005, 06:56 AM
I think my money would be on Corey Deuel with his 12 mph break vs Sarah's 30mph break in a match.

A hard break means nothing if a ball doesn't fall and you have a shot on the next ball.

And I think someone did mention that a baseball radar gun would not be accurate on a pool table. It would be accurate for everyone being tested that day on that table but you could not then compare those readings to what we see on TV. They may be the same, or they may be lower or higher. And then of course you have to know when the gun was last calibrated.

Jake


That is 100% correct about the radar guns. The only thing that you can say is, on that given day everyone who was tested was tested under the same conditions. If the type of radar gun changes, the flourescent light changes, the distance one is standing away from the table changes, the angle that you're standing from the measurement changes, if you're standing in front of, behind, or off to the side of the player changes, that PARTICULAR radar gun is changed out for another, or the calibration goes slightly out of whack, READOUTS will change.

I use a variety of radar guns and different models to monitor golf swing speeds every single day in my business so I'm highly attuned to their problems and inconsistencies, and there are a lot of variables.

Fred Agnir
04-10-2005, 07:40 AM
Well Fred, I'd like a lot more explained about the way it's measured.

What do you mean by "the break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball"? Are they measuring the actual speed of the ball coming off the tip of the cue, or are they measuring the speed of the cue coming into the ball? You can actually get two measurements, which is it? (Don't guess if you really don't know)

Carmine Sardo uses a radar gun. The radar gun is pointed to measure the cueball from its initial position.

And how did Sarah come up with 2 different speeds on varying sized tables that are listed in her thread? She's been measure several times at several different locations. I take it you've never been measured for speed? I can be different by several miles per hour on the same equipment.

What kind of radar gun were they using then? The Sardo and FURY booth is available to anyone and everyone. They use the same one for the men or women at the same event. As far as I know, they use the same one across the country. I'm sure they'll be available at the BCA Nationals, and possibly the ACS Nationals and/or APA Nationals. It's the same unit that they use for the professional men also, so it's all comparison nonetheless. You should check it out when you get a chance. It'll answer more questions than could be answered here.

Just out of curiosity, what is Sarah and Tiffany's height and weight to make a comparison between them and Alex, Sambajon, or Bustamante?Santos is probably close to Sarah.

Fred

sarahrousey
04-10-2005, 08:27 AM
Jake, I agree with you. Power doesn't mean anything. Control and making a ball means something. Alot of the pros that have a strong break tone it down in tournament play. It is usually easier to make balls on the break on the new cloth when you break softer and make solid contact with the one.

Gremlin....I'm really not sure what I did to you for you to make that post. I thank you for pointing something out that I am very well aware of. The only reason my break is brought up is because I am a small girl that can smash the break. That doesn't mean that I use that break everytime I hit the balls because I don't. I don't have alot of control when I break extremely hard. Those speeds were recorded in a fun deal that the point of the competition was to break hard.

You are right Kelly Fisher is a great player that I believe will be number one very soon. She has my utmost respect. If you think I don't realize that I have dropped in the rankings, you are dead wrong. I know that my 4 top 10 finishes are dropping off and I am not preforming as well as I would like. I am well aware of the fact that there are things that I need to work on and the fact that the competition is getting stronger. You may have your doubts about me because you think the only thing to talk about is my break, but I'm giving you fair warning...soon you will be saying....Damn, did you see that Sarah Rousey play.

Take care,
Sarah

Teacherman
04-10-2005, 08:48 AM
... I don't care
what any man says break speed means nothing. What counts is how many balls go in the pockets.

Spoken like the head idiot.

Don't forget that how he manages that break speed determines how many balls go in.

drivermaker
04-10-2005, 09:04 AM
Alright.... Size doesn't matter.

Take care,
Sarah


I don't care where you stand in the rankings, I think you just picked up a hell of a lot more male fans here on the forum. Phhhhewwwww......

drivermaker
04-10-2005, 09:12 AM
Oh Drivermaker, you really know how to wow a lady. :rolleyes: Ah, you are single aren't you???

....thought so. :p


Well, aaaaahhh, that's kinda up for interpretation. You see...when you were just 5 years old I met a very lovely young lady and we've been together ever since. With no national "common law marriage" law in existence, and common law not being recognized in the two states that we've lived, and no ceremony in front of a JP, ship captain, or preacher...that would be correct.
There have been others who would beg to disagree. I'll go with your answer though.

BTW...what's the longest length of time you've been with someone before they were driven stark raving bonkers? Have I beaten your record?....thought so. :p

Celtic
04-10-2005, 09:24 AM
The only reason my break is brought up is because I am a small girl that can smash the break.

I think that is always missing in these talks or just ignored. Strength and size means nothing in regards to break speed and as such the women are not lacking in the break department due to strength, they are lacking in break power due to skill and technique. Watch the best breakers and how loose they are and how much body motion they have in the break. Then watch 99% of women break and how restricted their body motion is and what they put into the break by comparison. Bustamente almost kicks himself in the back of the head on his break, most women dont hardly have either foot even come off the ground.

Women are weaker then men in pool because of their skill and attitude, not because of their muscle. Sarah is right on the point that women lack the confidence and killer instinct by in large. You could make an arguement for Allison or Karen maybe, since they are the closest to the mentallity of a true top male player who is all business and simply drills their opponent with zero emotion. Even them though, they have very restricted styles that can only get them so far and that point is nowhere near the top level.

There is a catch 22 though, for all the nerves a woman has playing a man and the stereotypes she has to ignore and overcome the men that have to play top women often dont play their best games either because there is more pressure on them to win or face the fame of loosing to a women, despite the fact she is a top pro. Any woman that takes out a top pro in a event is going to get press, and the guys that have to play that woman dont want to be "the guy" that they beat. Playing a woman will mess with a guys head and usually it will weaken his game so the women dont get the sole mental excuses when it comes to loosing to the men because those men are also under different pressure then normal.

cuechick
04-10-2005, 09:29 AM
I think most of you have missed the entire point of this thread...the question was not "Can" the Women compete with then Men but "Why don't they?"
Nostroke gave a very good and accurate response, because they don't have too! They have a much more successful tour than the men. Way back when when the WPBA was first formed they were approached by the men to try and form a "joint" tour (like the women and mens tennis tours, not competing with each other but side by side in the same events)...this was quickly squashed. The men could not agree on a format and the women wisely realized that this might ultimately hurt them. I was also told by a female pro the president of the WPBA at that time, I believe. At their first meeting, the first thing they asked her was to make the coffee. She knew then and there it was not going to work...
The debate of weather woman 'can' compete is old and tired...I compete and beat men all the time that are at my level. The truth is there are 100 men who play pool seriously to every 1 woman. The odds will always be in their favor, if i am looking for a perfect diamond, I will have much better odds if I am looking in a bag of 1000 than in a bag of 10.
I think the question should be
"Why don't the Men smarten up and follow the woman's example and put together a unified & successful tour?"

drivermaker
04-10-2005, 09:32 AM
I think most of you have missed the entire point of this thread...the question was not "Can" the Women compete with then Men but "Why don't they?"
Nostroke gave a very good and accurate response, because they don't have too! They have a much more successful tour than the men. Way back when when the WPBA was first formed they were approached by the men to try and form a "joint" tour (like the women and mens tennis tours, not competing with each other but side by side in the same events)...this was quickly squashed. The men could not agree on a format and the women wisely realized that this might ultimately hurt them. I was also told by a female pro the president of the WPBA at that time, I believe. At their first meeting, the first thing they asked her was to make the coffee. She knew then and there it was not going to work...
The debate of weather woman 'can' compete is old and tired...I compete and beat men all the time that are at my level. The truth is there are 100 men who play pool seriously to every 1 woman. The odds will always be in their favor, if i am looking for a perfect diamond, I will have much better odds if I am looking in a bag of 1000 than in a bag of 10.
I think the question should be
"Why don't the Men smarten up and follow the woman's example and put together a unified & successful tour?"


Because all of those poor bastards are spending way too much time having to make their own coffee......

dogginda9
04-10-2005, 05:12 PM
As far as the stats I typed the obvious. Sarah your the pro you have nothing to prove to me or the members of this billiard forum. Typing paragraph after
paragraph of text in this forum is a waste of your time. The time you can be using to bring your level of play even with the best players. That's the way I see it.You're right Gremlin, she doesn't have anything to prove. But I'm sure that Sarah has given some thought to how much time she spends on this forum and it's effect on her practice time. You should be a little more thankful that she does take time out to lend an opinion or give some useful advice quite often. There's an awful lot of useless drivel out there and hers is a voice of reason in the wilderness.

Teacherman
04-10-2005, 05:28 PM
..Typing paragraph after
paragraph of text in this forum is a waste of your time. The time you can be using to bring your level of play even with the best players. That's the way I see it.

I'll tell him/her for you, Sarah (since you're so (too) nice)..........F OFF!!.

She's old enough to do whatever she wants, when she wants.

Mr. Wilson
04-10-2005, 06:19 PM
You know, the whole context and the intent for starting this thread has been hijacked.

It's not as much about a battle of the sexes as it is about finding simply the "best".

As has been pointed out numerous times, there are quite a few women who are superbly qualified to play against anyone they chose.

The question was, why don't they or won't they participate in games against the best men?

It's a very easy to understand that serious men out number serious women players by a huge margin........but........I would still think they would want to know if they *really* have what it takes, Who is the Best?

Ultimately, pool is about competition. 100% competitive in nature. Hasn't got a thing to do with nurture or even in a greater sense, sportsmanship, or how the organizations are run.

Man or Woman, never will you see the opponent really wishing for their competitor's "good luck", hoping they get a good roll and every time they play safe, they want the other guy as screwed as possible.

Pretty words and courtesy, strength VS. sex aside, it's about who drops the money ball.

I just want to see the best rise to the occasion.

When the best play the best, I really do hope there is a woman who is qualified and willing to join the fray.


Dave

Pete
04-11-2005, 11:10 AM
I don't know if any of you read Jen Barretta, said about skill level on her board (APA skill level I think), but see said that the top 16 would be SL6-SL7. Now I'm fairly new to the APA, but I would say a SL7 falls far behind what a Pro player is. Not trying to stir the poop any more but if she's right, that answers why the WPBA doesn't allow them (or atleast I think they aren't allowed).

And Oh by the way, I do think that some of the woman can (and some do with men).

Pete

coolpoolfool
04-11-2005, 01:18 PM
:) Get 'em, Sarah! LOL

I for one think it's awesome that Sarah takes time out of her schedule to come on here. Why would that be a waste of time? Even the pros don't know everything. I'm sure the men pros don't practice 24/7 either. She is entitled to a life, and if she chooses to spend her free time posting on a billiards-related forum, more power to her.

Jude Rosenstock
04-11-2005, 02:55 PM
You know, what bothers me about some of these statements is that it detracts from the progress women have made, not just in pool but in society. Simply put, historically women have not been treated as equals. Even today, when you view the women who demonstrate male-type characteristics in competitive situations, they're demonized as being masculine or if they have attractive feminine attributes, *****es.

It wasn't too long ago that society was legally segmented by gender (Civil Rights Act, 1964). There were places women simply didn't go and poolrooms were definately one of them. Although laws have changed and poolrooms have become a more popular social destination for both genders, it is still considered a spectacle when a woman rents a table by herself. Without exception, a lone woman practicing in a poolroom will be offered continuous commentary.

Yet, we men still sit here on our perch and tell these women that they cannot gain our respect until they have accomplished the goals we, as men, have accomplished. Since technically there is nothing obviously masculine required to attain pool perfection, we men feel that the playing-field is perfectly level and that no accommodations should be made. However, we forget (or never bothered to learn) that this is hardly the case.

The suppression of women is something that predates American society. In fact, not only does it predate our ancestral European societies, it predates historical society on the whole. Through physical intimidation, we have suppressed an entire gender for eons and only in our most recent modern history begun to make things right. The evidence is complete and absolute. From the clothes worn to the taking of a husband's name. Not only are women considered attractive accessories in and of themselves, they completely handover their identity and forfeit any sort of lineage considered an evolutionary right.

Yet, we've moved beyond this. Forget that it was only the 1970's that the US Supreme Court established that a "Men's Only" club was unconstitutional and forget that it wasn't until this decade that women actually began to invade some of these well-heeled establishments. Everything is all square, right? Does it matter that gym class was always segregated and girls were given sports that required less hand-eye coordination (if any)? Does it matter that even NCAA sports shows a discrepancy between what is offered for men vs. what is offered for women?

So here we are, in the dawn of the 21st century, less than a century removed from the time women were allowed to vote (1920) and we sit here, on our perch, telling women they're still not good enough. There's a women's tour because some people in this world find them entertaining, if not because they play excellent pool but because they are competitive in a game that has historically been dominated by men. Will this domination continue? For the time being, it would be fair to say yes but only time will tell. Women have narrowed the gap in marathon running, been considered for the NHL, shown the same grit and determination on the tennis courts. In my opinion, pool will be no different. Eventually, it will be unnecessary to have segregation yet still showcase the very best women have to offer.

You really think Alison Fisher, Karen Corr and Jean Balukas are the ceiling of women's pool? None of us have a right to declare where that ceiling is and none of us have any idea. I will introduce a term for you: "Natural State" , which would be defined as the way something is (or would be) without outside intervention. Women in their "natural state" have not existed in any part of the western world at any point in time. Until the natural state of women is reached, any assessment made about their current ability should be recognized that its achievement was done under handicap.

Nostroke
04-11-2005, 03:11 PM
You know, what bothers me about some of these statements is that it detracts from the progress women have made, not just in pool but in society. Simply put, historically women have not been treated as equals. Even today, when you view the women who demonstrate male-type characteristics in competitive situations, they're demonized as being masculine or if they have attractive feminine attributes, *****es.

It wasn't too long ago that society was legally segmented by gender (Civil Rights Act, 1964). There were places women simply didn't go and poolrooms were definately one of them. Although laws have changed and poolrooms have become a more popular social destination for both genders, it is still considered a spectacle when a woman rents a table by herself. Without exception, a lone woman practicing in a poolroom will be offered continuous commentary.

Yet, we men still sit here on our perch and tell these women that they cannot gain our respect until they have accomplished the goals we, as men, have accomplished. Since technically there is nothing obviously masculine required to attain pool perfection, we men feel that the playing-field is perfectly level and that no accommodations should be made. However, we forget (or never bothered to learn) that this is hardly the case.

The suppression of women is something that predates American society. In fact, not only does it predate our ancestral European societies, it predates historical society on the whole. Through physical intimidation, we have suppressed an entire gender for eons and only in our most recent modern history begun to make things right. The evidence is complete and absolute. From the clothes worn to the taking of a husband's name. Not only are women considered attractive accessories in and of themselves, they completely handover their identity and forfeit any sort of lineage considered an evolutionary right.

Yet, we've moved beyond this. Forget that it was only the 1970's that the US Supreme Court established that a "Men's Only" club was unconstitutional and forget that it wasn't until this decade that women actually began to invade some of these well-heeled establishments. Everything is all square, right? Does it matter that gym class was always segregated and girls were given sports that required less hand-eye coordination (if any)? Does it matter that even NCAA sports shows a discrepancy between what is offered for men vs. what is offered for women?

So here we are, in the dawn of the 21st century, less than a century removed from the time women were allowed to vote (1920) and we sit here, on our perch, telling women they're still not good enough. There's a women's tour because some people in this world find them entertaining, if not because they play excellent pool but because they are competitive in a game that has historically been dominated by men. Will this domination continue? For the time being, it would be fair to say yes but only time will tell. Women have narrowed the gap in marathon running, been considered for the NHL, shown the same grit and determination on the tennis courts. In my opinion, pool will be no different. Eventually, it will be unnecessary to have segregation yet still showcase the very best women have to offer.

You really think Alison Fisher, Karen Corr and Jean Balukas are the ceiling of women's pool? None of us have a right to declare where that ceiling is and none of us have any idea. I will introduce a term for you: "Natural State" , which would be defined as the way something is (or would be) without outside intervention. Women in their "natural state" have not existed in any part of the western world at any point in time. Until the natural state of women is reached, any assessment made about their current ability should be recognized that its achievement was done under handicap.

Wow Dude -You should have no trouble getting laid tonite!

Johnnyt
04-11-2005, 03:26 PM
Wow Dude -You should have no trouble getting laid tonite!
LMAO. JohnnyT

drivermaker
04-11-2005, 03:31 PM
Wow Dude -You should have no trouble getting laid tonite!


LMAO...I was wondering at first if it might have been Martha Burk. Is it?
Martha..................is it really you?

Nostroke
04-11-2005, 03:49 PM
LMAO. JohnnyT

I was just going for the cheap laughs. Obviously Jude made some excelllent points.

drivermaker
04-11-2005, 04:54 PM
I was just going for the cheap laughs. Obviously Jude made some excelllent points.


Ohhhh nooooo.....a sheep in wolves clothing.............

sjm
04-11-2005, 04:59 PM
You know, what bothers me about some of these statements is that it detracts from the progress women have made, not just in pool but in society. Simply put, historically women have not been treated as equals. Even today, when you view the women who demonstrate male-type characteristics in competitive situations, they're demonized as being masculine or if they have attractive feminine attributes, *****es.

It wasn't too long ago that society was legally segmented by gender (Civil Rights Act, 1964). There were places women simply didn't go and poolrooms were definately one of them. Although laws have changed and poolrooms have become a more popular social destination for both genders, it is still considered a spectacle when a woman rents a table by herself. Without exception, a lone woman practicing in a poolroom will be offered continuous commentary.

Yet, we men still sit here on our perch and tell these women that they cannot gain our respect until they have accomplished the goals we, as men, have accomplished. Since technically there is nothing obviously masculine required to attain pool perfection, we men feel that the playing-field is perfectly level and that no accommodations should be made. However, we forget (or never bothered to learn) that this is hardly the case.

The suppression of women is something that predates American society. In fact, not only does it predate our ancestral European societies, it predates historical society on the whole. Through physical intimidation, we have suppressed an entire gender for eons and only in our most recent modern history begun to make things right. The evidence is complete and absolute. From the clothes worn to the taking of a husband's name. Not only are women considered attractive accessories in and of themselves, they completely handover their identity and forfeit any sort of lineage considered an evolutionary right.

Yet, we've moved beyond this. Forget that it was only the 1970's that the US Supreme Court established that a "Men's Only" club was unconstitutional and forget that it wasn't until this decade that women actually began to invade some of these well-heeled establishments. Everything is all square, right? Does it matter that gym class was always segregated and girls were given sports that required less hand-eye coordination (if any)? Does it matter that even NCAA sports shows a discrepancy between what is offered for men vs. what is offered for women?

So here we are, in the dawn of the 21st century, less than a century removed from the time women were allowed to vote (1920) and we sit here, on our perch, telling women they're still not good enough. There's a women's tour because some people in this world find them entertaining, if not because they play excellent pool but because they are competitive in a game that has historically been dominated by men. Will this domination continue? For the time being, it would be fair to say yes but only time will tell. Women have narrowed the gap in marathon running, been considered for the NHL, shown the same grit and determination on the tennis courts. In my opinion, pool will be no different. Eventually, it will be unnecessary to have segregation yet still showcase the very best women have to offer.

You really think Alison Fisher, Karen Corr and Jean Balukas are the ceiling of women's pool? None of us have a right to declare where that ceiling is and none of us have any idea. I will introduce a term for you: "Natural State" , which would be defined as the way something is (or would be) without outside intervention. Women in their "natural state" have not existed in any part of the western world at any point in time. Until the natural state of women is reached, any assessment made about their current ability should be recognized that its achievement was done under handicap.

Bravo, Jude. That's a well judged, articulate, and informative post.

sjm
04-11-2005, 05:14 PM
Women may not be the best pool players in the world, but many of them are truly outstanding players and we enjoy watching them compete.

Anyone who thinks a woman should be forced to compete with the best men should take a look at boxing. Why do they have weight classes in boxing? After all, only the heavyweight champ probably has a right to call himself the world's greatest fighter. Surely, there's nobody out there that would pick the flyweight champion in a bout with a heavyweight. And yet, we all understand that the champion of the flyweight class is a superb boxer, deserving of our respect and admiration, even if he can only knock out other flyweights.

Grouping those having comparable physical attributes together makes for an entertaining show. That's one of many reasons that me and so many others absolutely love women's pool. Greatness, we must remember, is not the exclusive domain of the heavyweights, in boxing or in any other sport.

fxskater
04-11-2005, 05:22 PM
I'll say the same thing i always say. This apply's directly too pool but i use golf cause they have well established tours.

If the woman wanna play in the PGA, Let the Men into the LPGA. That shit with Annika playing pisses me off. Its not about equality, if it was men would be invited to the LPGA tour. I believe men and woman should/are equal, but when does this gender rollercoster stop? If you want true equality you are making yourselves look bad, you just want a taste of what the men have.

landshark77
04-11-2005, 06:43 PM
I'll say the same thing i always say. This apply's directly too pool but i use golf cause they have well established tours.

If the woman wanna play in the PGA, Let the Men into the LPGA. That shit with Annika playing pisses me off. Its not about equality, if it was men would be invited to the LPGA tour. I believe men and woman should/are equal, but when does this gender rollercoster stop? If you want true equality you are making yourselves look bad, you just want a taste of what the men have.

Ok, I can argee with that, somewhat. However, you name one guy...just one that is willing to start the battle to play on the women's tour.

I'll give you an example: I was with my brother this past weekend. We were driving by an all women's college. I said that if he went there he could probably get alot of chicks, lmao. I was kinding around and said I would help fight for him, because the college shouldn't be sexist and discriminate against him because he is male. He turned the conversation around to the girl that fought (and won) to attened VMI. He said something about how she quit because she couldn't hack it and that the courts should have made her stay for a year since she raised such a fuss about it. IMO, at least women are able to fight for what they want, no matter the name calling, belittlement, or outcome. But I am willing to bet that no guy will fight to be on any women's tour, because of the names he may be called by his buddies. I mean really, look at the male nurses...the still get slided because they aren't doctors. JMHO.

I will support you all the way Fxskater...let me know how I can help you play on any women's tour. I'll sign and picket where ever you want.

sixpack
04-11-2005, 07:08 PM
Ok, I can argee with that, somewhat. However, you name one guy...just one that is willing to start the battle to play on the women's tour.

I'll give you an example: I was with my brother this past weekend. We were driving by an all women's college. I said that if he went there he could probably get alot of chicks, lmao. I was kinding around and said I would help fight for him, because the college shouldn't be sexist and discriminate against him because he is male. He turned the conversation around to the girl that fought (and won) to attened VMI. He said something about how she quit because she couldn't hack it and that the courts should have made her stay for a year since she raised such a fuss about it. IMO, at least women are able to fight for what they want, no matter the name calling, belittlement, or outcome. But I am willing to bet that no guy will fight to be on any women's tour, because of the names he may be called by his buddies. I mean really, look at the male nurses...the still get slided because they aren't doctors. JMHO.

I will support you all the way Fxskater...let me know how I can help you play on any women's tour. I'll sign and picket where ever you want.

Name one guy? Okay, Brian Kontak. He fought a battle to play on the LPGA tour and lost. You were right though, he took a beating in the press.

Here's a clip from the guardian about it:

Brian Kontak, a 31-year-old journeyman from Arizona, announced last month he wanted to play in this year's US Women's Open, despite a long-standing rule that states that entry to the event is open only 'to professional and amateur golfers who were females at birth'. Kontak has hired a lawyer, who is putting together a case arguing that his client is being denied his constitutional right to work. 'I'm not trying to to impress anyone. I'm doing what I feel the need to do,' Kontak says. 'My whole deal is equality. If we're going to be equal, then let's all be equal.' There are generations of female professional golfers, denied equal prize money, equal access and equal status down the years, who would raise a glass to that. But only if there isn't a sign on the clubhouse door that says women aren't allowed in the bar.



Cheers,
Regas

landshark77
04-11-2005, 07:10 PM
Name one guy? Okay, Brian Kontak. He fought a battle to play on the LPGA tour and lost. You were right though, he took a beating in the press.

Here's a clip from the guardian about it:


Cheers,
Regas
Thanx Regas. I didn't know that.

pete lafond
04-11-2005, 08:06 PM
You know, what bothers me about some of these statements is that it detracts from the progress women have made, not just in pool but in society. Simply put, historically women have not been treated as equals. Even today, when you view the women who demonstrate male-type characteristics in competitive situations, they're demonized as being masculine or if they have attractive feminine attributes, *****es.

The deep end for sure. The majority does not stop women from competing with men. Anyone can enter any pool competition, with the exception of men playing in some womens tournaments. There is no problem here and only some facts were stated such as speed of breaks. No one is stopping women from playing. They are doing a fantastic job with their tour which is a great complement. They are welcome in the tours played frequently by men, however more often than not they choose not to. This is their choice, not some equal rights ammendment crap - you are turning this into discrimination. Does not exist.

sixpack
04-11-2005, 09:46 PM
Thanx Regas. I didn't know that.


:cool:

It is probably not a good thing to be that much of a golf addict!

Going back to the original theme of this thread though, I thought I posted this yesterday, but here goes again.

I think women can compete with men. Once I went to an open tournament in Nebraska. They didn't have enough women for the women's event, so one woman elected to play in the mens event. Most of you have never heard of her, she definitely was NOT on the WPBA and never played in a WPBA event that I know of.

Anyway, I drew her first round and she beat me, by breaking and running out SEVERAL racks. I don't think she made an unforced error. I don't think I saw more than one clean shot the entire match. Another player was giving me grief by getting beat by a girl, conversation went something like this:
me: "She played great, she outplayed me and she won. I don't know what else to tell you."
him: "I know what you mean, it's hard to play a girl, you play easy and then you get distracted looking at them."
me: "No, that wasn't it, she played great."
him: "oh, okay, whatever you say."

Anyway, to make a long story short, she cruises through a tough tournament field with several pros and lots of shortstops and plays Bill Meacham for the hot seat and loses on hill-hill. IIRC she got to the hill first. Then She plays Danny Medina to get back to the finals and takes him to the hill before losing.

After the tournament, the player that was giving me grief, a pro, said to me, "I see what you mean, that chick plays GREAT."

She was within 2 games of winning the tournament...and nobody ever heard of her. I don't think she plays as good on 9' tables as most WPBA players, but on a barbox I wouldn't bet against her against any of them.

Regas

AceHigh
04-11-2005, 10:45 PM
i played Miyuki once getting the last 5, and i ran her over.

stevelomako
04-12-2005, 01:14 AM
I'm going to answer the question that started the thread this way:

I walked into the pool room the other day and there were 4 WOMEN playing partners gin ($25 a woman) at one table, there was a 6 handed russian rummy game ($20/10) with all WOMEN, on the 6x12, 5 WOMEN were playing golf ($10/1), three WOMEN were playing captains one-pocket at $10 a woman, 2 WOMEN were playing $25 a game one-pocket and there were 2 WOMEN playing cheap 9-ball in the back (races to 9 for $25).

I stopped to talk to one of the husbands that was sitting up front reading the paper waiting for his wife to finish gambling and he told me he couldn't understand why she did this instead of being home with him!





There's always going to be exceptions but when the pool room becomes like the above, then it will be equal.



As far as the comments that the women have a better tournament tour:

They have about 8 events each year for kinda decent money, that....don't forget....they work very, very hard to get....because they LOSE tournament sponsers every year because there's no return on the investment for the sponser. The interest for the gate and return on the money for the sponser just isn't there. If they didn't have the solidarity and weren't as organized as well as they are, they wouldn't have anything. If there WAS the interest, they would have at LEAST double what they have now and not be LOSING tournament sponsers for as long as they've been at it (25 years?).

Even with no real mens tour there are far, far, far more events for more money. You can play just about every week-end in addition to all the big events that are out there for the guys.

You reap what you sow and hard work doesn't always pay off.

sarahrousey
04-12-2005, 02:26 AM
Gremlin, you are right, I don't have to prove anything to anyone but myself. If you think I don't dedicate my time to pool because of this forum...you are nuts. I guess you think I should just lock myself in a pool room and do drills day and night. I learn from this forum as well. I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I also get a chance to make alot of new friends. I should at least be able to enjoy a couple things in my life and right now those things would be pool and meeting new people. I'm sorry my schedule of eating, sleeping, breathing pool doesn't suit you. You haven't minded the pool information that you have received from me in the past.

As for women being allowed to play with the men, that is not totally true. The WPBA is putting a stop to that. I hate that fact. Believe me, if I had the money to get to every mens tournament in the world I would be there. I would be a better player by getting to play all of the top men in the world. The chance for me and the other pro women to play against the men at the DCC was taken away. And it has already been brought up so many times about how Jeanette did well and I did well there. That should have been incentive for the WPBA and other women to play in that tournament. Myself and some others are working for that to change. I know that I don't play at the same level as the men, but perhaps if I had more of a chance to do so, I would be able to reach that level from what I learn from them.

Take care,
Sarah

JAM
04-12-2005, 03:36 AM
Gremlin, you are right, I don't have to prove anything to anyone but myself...I should at least be able to enjoy a couple things in my life and right now those things would be pool and meeting new people....

Sarah, I have noticed that on pool-related forums, some people (not all) are just result pickers. :rolleyes:

As long as YOU are comfortable with your game and its progression AND are having a good time along the way, to hell with what anybody else thinks. It is what YOU think that matters, my friend! :)

JAM

catscradle
04-12-2005, 04:02 AM
Hello,

.... Typing paragraph after
paragraph of text in this forum is a waste of your time. The time you can be using to bring your level of play even with the best players. That's the way I see it.

The way I figure it Sarah maybe spends an hour or so a day at most on this forum. Don't you think Allison Fischer, your precious Kelly Fischer, Johnny Archer, Corey Duell, etc. spend an hour or two or six a day doing something other than practicing pool. Time spent practicing anything has diminishing returns after a certain point at which time you must do something else. I have no idea if Sarah spends adequate time practicing pool, but the piddling amount of time she spends on this forum isn't isn't keeping her from it.

Besides it is none of your damn business what she does with her time.

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 04:13 AM
I'll say the same thing i always say. This apply's directly too pool but i use golf cause they have well established tours.

If the woman wanna play in the PGA, Let the Men into the LPGA. That shit with Annika playing pisses me off. Its not about equality, if it was men would be invited to the LPGA tour. I believe men and woman should/are equal, but when does this gender rollercoster stop? If you want true equality you are making yourselves look bad, you just want a taste of what the men have.


Well here's something to start your day off with a bang and torque you off even further (me too)...Michelle Wie accepted a sponsor's exemption in the John Deere Classic, the second time this year the 15-year old little twit from Hawaii will play on the PGA Tour. The John Deere Classic is played at the TPC at Deere Run in Silvis, ILL., and will be July 7-10.
That means one less spot available for a regular PGA player that's been working his tail off since childhood to make the big show to feed his family.

The LPGA By-Laws specifically say...."NO F*#KING MEN ALLOWED", yet....that scum of the earth loud mouthed self-promoting POS feminist Martha Burk doesn't understand that the same thing applies when a private golf club like Augusta, and others, say...."NO WOMEN" or "NOBODY THAT WE DON'T WANT AROUND HERE". Hey...Donald Trump and Bill Gates can't even BUY their way into Augusta. The members there don't want them at the club and won't let them join...so it's not just women.

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 04:16 AM
Thanx Regas. I didn't know that.


Why don't you just "rubber stamp" your above response and apply it to all of your posts. This is the first time I've ever seen signs of lucidity....... :eek:

sjm
04-12-2005, 04:42 AM
Well here's something to start your day off with a bang and torque you off even further (me too)...Michelle Wie accepted a sponsor's exemption in the John Deere Classic, the second time this year the 15-year old little twit from Hawaii will play on the PGA Tour. The John Deere Classic is played at the TPC at Deere Run in Silvis, ILL., and will be July 7-10. That means one less spot available for a regular PGA player that's been working his tail off since childhood to make the big show to feed his family.

Driver, I don't disagree with you often, but I don't agree with you here.

In golf, the sponsor's exemption is virtually always given to somebody who doesn't qualify to compete on merit, whether it be a local but accomplished player, a former star of the game, or anyone else, who, in the judgment of the sponsor, will make the event better and/or more marketable. Giving the sponsor control over a spot, as you note, is at odds with objective allocation of that tournament spot, but it does provide extra incentive for sponsors to fund events.

Guess what I'm saying is that your problem seems to be with the existence of the sponsor's exemption spot in the first place. Once you accept its existence, how it is used is entirely up to the sponsor. I suspect any event sponsor would consider Michelle Wie, because she is exciting to watch, and helps draw attention to their event, improving the financial prospects for the event.

Count me among those that believe that the sponsor's exemption has brought more money into golf by allowing event sponsors a chance to include certain highly marketable professionals in their fields not exempt in to their event. The real beneficiary of this practice is the pro who has worked his whole life to get a chance to play on tour, and has a bigger pot of gold to chase than any golfer before him.

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 04:58 AM
Driver, I don't disagree with you often, but I don't agree with you here.

In golf, the sponsor's exemption is virtually always given to somebody who doesn't qualify to compete on merit, whether it be a local but accomplished player, a former star of the game, or anyone else, who, in the judgment of the sponsor, will make the event better and/or more marketable. Giving the sponsor control over a spot, as you note, is at odds with objective allocation of that tournament spot, but it does provide extra incentive for sponsors to fund events.

Guess what I'm saying is that your problem seems to be with the existence of the sponsor's exemption spot in the first place. Once you accept its existence, how it is used is entirely up to the sponsor. I suspect any event sponsor would consider Michelle Wie, because she is exciting to watch, and helps draw attention to their event, improving the financial prospects for the event.

Count me among those that believe that the sponsor's exemption has brought more money into golf by allowing event sponsors a chance to include certain highly marketable professionals in their fields not exempt in to their event. The real beneficiary of this practice is the pro who has worked his whole life to get a chance to play on tour, and has a bigger pot of gold to chase than any golfer before him.


That is another way of looking at it and you make a good point. However, I think if you were to poll PGA members themselves, the vote wouldn't be 100% against her playing there and a number of them would see it as you presented it, but the majority vote would be for her NOT to play and give it to a deserving PGA member that qualifies. If you recall, there was somewhat of a firestorm at the event in Texas when Annika played for the first time and Vijay spoke out against it and then pulled out of the tournament. A number of other players felt exactly the same way and openly stated it before and after the fact.
I've posted before and I'll post it again, ANYTIME you have the sexes pitted against each other it boosts the ratings and is good for TV and the money makers behind it. Is it fair to others and the pro's in the game itself? I guess it depends on who you talk to...but I'd even watch Joey Buttafucco go at it again with some chick...maybe Tanya Harding this time.

Rackin_Zack
04-12-2005, 07:33 AM
I guess it depends on who you talk to...but I'd even watch Joey Buttafucco go at it again with some chick...maybe Tanya Harding this time.

Would Tanya get to use the pipe she (her boyfriend/bodyguard) used on Nancy?! That would be pretty interesting...lol.

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 07:53 AM
Would Tanya get to use the pipe she (her boyfriend/bodyguard) used on Nancy?! That would be pretty interesting...lol.


Only if Joey had the pistol handy that was used to pop his wife......

Rackin_Zack
04-12-2005, 08:32 AM
Only if Joey had the pistol handy that was used to pop his wife......

Okay, he gets the pistol, sans bullets of course, and she gets a steel pipe. Sounds like someone needs to get to work on setting this up...lol.

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 08:35 AM
Okay, he gets the pistol, sans bullets of course, and she gets a steel pipe. Sounds like someone needs to get to work on setting this up...lol.


We might even be able to make it more appealing....how about bringing in Lorena Bobbit as Tanya's tag team partner, with knife. :eek:

Rackin_Zack
04-12-2005, 08:46 AM
We might even be able to make it more appealing....how about bringing in Lorena Bobbit as Tanya's tag team partner, with knife. :eek:

Great idea, although she's only allowed to use the knife on his genitals...lol.

Jude Rosenstock
04-12-2005, 09:07 AM
The deep end for sure. The majority does not stop women from competing with men. Anyone can enter any pool competition, with the exception of men playing in some womens tournaments. There is no problem here and only some facts were stated such as speed of breaks. No one is stopping women from playing. They are doing a fantastic job with their tour which is a great complement. They are welcome in the tours played frequently by men, however more often than not they choose not to. This is their choice, not some equal rights ammendment crap - you are turning this into discrimination. Does not exist.

Really, your post is monumental. I'd save it to my harddrive but I really don't think my computer deserves such punishment.

Sweet Marissa
04-12-2005, 09:19 AM
We don't want to distract you when we're bent over the table! LOL

ScottR
04-12-2005, 09:26 AM
We don't want to distract you when we're bent over the table! LOL
YOW!! Drivermaker, I thought you had everything south of Atlanta covered to control this type of thing. :D

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 10:05 AM
YOW!! Drivermaker, I thought you had everything south of Atlanta covered to control this type of thing. :D


Eeeeeeeeeeyouchhhhhhhhhh..........Columbus is kinda out of my territory but I might have see what the "business" prospects are down there. Life can get boring at times....I think I'm in need of some distractions. :D

landshark77
04-12-2005, 10:11 AM
Great idea, although she's only allowed to use the knife on his genitals...lol.
Not fair! I would have gotten in trouble if I would have said that. :mad:

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 10:19 AM
Not fair! I would have gotten in trouble if I would have said that. :mad:


LMAO....you're right! However the rule is when you were born with them, it's OK. Here's the deal...we won't perform masectomies (implied) if you women folk don't perform castrations. Fair 'nuff?

chefjeff
04-12-2005, 10:30 AM
LMAO....you're right! However the rule is when you were born with them, it's OK. Here's the deal...we won't perform masectomies (implied) if you women folk don't perform castrations. Fair 'nuff?

What with the women making all the money in pool, you might want to rethink this suggestion. You could get on a profitable tour overnight with just a wave of the hand, so to speak. :eek:

Jeff Livingston

landshark77
04-12-2005, 11:19 AM
LMAO....you're right! However the rule is when you were born with them, it's OK. Here's the deal...we won't perform masectomies (implied) if you women folk don't perform castrations. Fair 'nuff?
Ok, fair 'nuff. ;) Now rack 'em. :D

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 11:25 AM
Ok, fair 'nuff. ;) Now rack 'em. :D


Can I use your rack? ;)

DaveK
04-12-2005, 11:33 AM
[QUOTE=drivermaker]Well here's something to start your day off with a bang and torque you off even further (me too)...Michelle Wie accepted a sponsor's exemption in the John Deere Classic, the second time this year the 15-year old little twit from Hawaii will play on the PGA Tour. The John Deere Classic is played at the TPC at Deere Run in Silvis, ILL., and will be July 7-10.
That means one less spot available for a regular PGA player that's been working his tail off since childhood to make the big show to feed his family.
QUOTE]

A male amateur who might be given a Sponsors Exemption in some tournament would similarly make " one less spot available for a regular PGA player that's been working his tail off since childhood to make the big show to feed his family". So this begs the question :

Are you against amateurs playing in professional tournaments ?

On another subject, I recall an interview with Chris Everett the tennis superstar. She was asked about the boys vs. girls thing. She was ranked in the top 3 (?) in the world at the time, and her brother was on the mens tour ranked in the high 100's or low 200's (ie, NOT a superstar) IIRC. She said they practice together a fair bit and she would not stand a chance against him in a match. Of course power is a big element in tennis, so it's quite different from pool.

Dave

landshark77
04-12-2005, 11:34 AM
Can I use your rack? ;)
You are talking about the triangle, right? :confused: I figured with your racking experience that you had your own...or at least know where to find one! :eek: :eek:

cuechick
04-12-2005, 12:28 PM
I don't know if any of you read Jen Barretta, said about skill level on her board (APA skill level I think), but see said that the top 16 would be SL6-SL7. Now I'm fairly new to the APA, but I would say a SL7 falls far behind what a Pro player is. Not trying to stir the poop any more but if she's right, that answers why the WPBA doesn't allow them (or atleast I think they aren't allowed).

And Oh by the way, I do think that some of the woman can (and some do with men).

Pete
Do you releasie if Efren Reyes played in the APA he too would be a 7! She was answering a specific question within the perimeters of this handicapped system. Not passing judgement.

Sweet Marissa
04-12-2005, 12:41 PM
Scott, I saw you are in Atlanta. Are you (or anyone else) going to Tommy Kennedy's tournament this weekend at Mr Cues II?

LastTwo
04-12-2005, 12:43 PM
Do you releasie if Efren Reyes played in the APA he too would be a 7! She was answering a specific question within the perimeters of this handicapped system. Not passing judgement.

A 7 is the highest rating in the APA? Doesn't it go higher than that?

ScottR
04-12-2005, 12:51 PM
Scott, I saw you are in Atlanta. Are you (or anyone else) going to Tommy Kennedy's tournament this weekend at Mr Cues II?
I was thinking about it. Are you? Playing or watching?

Jude Rosenstock
04-12-2005, 01:03 PM
A 7 is the highest rating in the APA? Doesn't it go higher than that?


APA 8-ball is rated from 2-7. You might be thinking of APA 9-ball which is rated up to 9. Knowing Jenn, I would say it was fair to assume she was referring to 8-ball.

Regarding Jenn's comment about the top 16, I don't believe she was referring to Karen Corr, Alison Fisher, Jeanette Lee or many of the WPBA's elites. All of whom, if they were men, would still be barred from APA play. It is true that some of the women who play in the WPBA (on skill alone) could fit into the APA handicap structure and some of those women are ranked in the top 16 but that says little about the WPBA or the APA.

In New York City (where Jenn is from), there are very, very few s/l 7's who, if they were women, would be competitive in the WPBA. Jenn might have wanted to illustrate a gap that exists between professional men and professional women but I assure you, there is also a gap between professional women and the typical s/l 7 in the APA.

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 01:03 PM
A male amateur who might be given a Sponsors Exemption in some tournament would similarly make " one less spot available for a regular PGA player that's been working his tail off since childhood to make the big show to feed his family". So this begs the question :

Are you against amateurs playing in professional tournaments ?

Dave


In all fairness to the pro's...yes. But there's a lot of politics and favors going on behind the scenes with sponsors exemptions. In Michelle Wie's case, she doesn't even have a stellar amateur record yet against her peers and gender.
In no way do I imply that she can't play at a high level though, but last year she got her ass kicked in both the US Amateur event and the Public links by other females. I think the girl needs to grow up normally for a couple more years. They're almost using her as a freak show for their own benefit.

When I lived in South Florida a number of years back, Steve Scott lived a couple of blocks from me and used to hang around my place when I was working on clubs. We played together a good number or times, both while he was in high school and later when he was in college. If you've forgotten who he is, he's the kid that had Tiger Woods way down with only 9 holes to go in the US Amateur right before Tiger turned pro. Well, the Gods of golf shined down on Tiger there, just like this past weekend and Steve was defeated in sudden death in one of the greatest US Am's in history. Tiger made some putts that were 3 counties wide that couldn't be duplicated with 100 balls in a row.

Well after all of that drama on TV and being a home town hero by almost knocking off Tiger, he got a sponsors exemption at the Honda Classic. He also had one hell of a junior record in high school tournaments, national tournaments, as well as in college and for a while was ranked #1 in the nation. I can't say that I was too bummed out about that because it was in his own backyard and a lot of people were out there rooting for him. I don't recall that he got any others in different parts of the country as part of a big drawing card or a freak show.

drivermaker
04-12-2005, 01:06 PM
You are talking about the triangle, right? :confused: I figured with your racking experience that you had your own...or at least know where to find one! :eek: :eek:


All racks aren't triangles.

landshark77
04-12-2005, 01:10 PM
All racks aren't triangles.
And all triangles aren't racks.

Rackin_Zack
04-12-2005, 01:11 PM
Jenn might have wanted to illustrate a gap that exists between professional men and professional women but I assure you, there is also a gap between professional women and the typical s/l 7 in the APA.

From personal experience, I was a 7 in the APA before I quit and I can confirm this. I know I wouldn't have much of a chance against a lot of the women, in a longer race that is. I played Gerda 2 games in San Diego and beat her both games, but I am sure I would have been hard pressed to beat her in a race to 9 or longer. I can play at a high level sometimes but I have a hard time maintaining it...lol. It was cool, however, when Gerda told me that it was fun watching me play...lol.

DaveK
04-12-2005, 01:20 PM
In all fairness to the pro's...yes.

They're almost using her as a freak show for their own benefit.



Thanks for answering that. And I think they are definately using Wei as a freak show for their own benefit. She will turn pro before too long, then we will see how good she can be.

Dave

T.Cox
04-13-2005, 03:02 PM
Ok, don't flame me too bad :)

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.

Can anyone explain to me why they can't ( or won't ) compete with men at this level?

Dave

I think this has more to do with the WPBA shouldn't ever want to be associated with the mens tour. Look at what the men have done to their sport, case in point Strickland in Milwaukee, WI and the loss of Camel as the sponsor. The WPBA is a class act organization as my finace and I found out when she played in the Cue Tech Nationals in Oregon. Everyone was so friendly and helpful from the moment we walked in.

Second of all even the top women just can't compete with the women. I know Larry Nevel has to give up the 6 to most of the women and he still wins and he is not even a top player.

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 04:46 AM
Thanks for answering that. And I think they are definately using Wei as a freak show for their own benefit. She will turn pro before too long, then we will see how good she can be.

Dave


In today's paper, 4-21, another male pro spoke up about giving sponsors exemptions to women. I'll print the entire article:

U.S. Open champion Retief Goosen fanned the flames of the debate on women entering men's golf events Wednesday by saying female players should be forced to qualify.

"I THINK IN GENERAL THE PLAYERS FEEL IT'S NOT THE RIGHT THING" said the South African, who played a charity skins event with South Korea's Grace Park in Thailand last weekend.

"If they qualify for the tournament, they go through qualifying school...then it's fine. BUT JUST TO KEEP GIVING INVITES AWAY IS PROBABLY NOT THE RIGHT THING". (end of article)

As I stated earlier, it's a freak show. In the long run it won't be a benefit to either tour or either gender.

landshark77
04-21-2005, 05:06 AM
As I stated earlier, it's a freak show. In the long run it won't be a benefit to either tour or either gender.
Drivermaker, I agree...the women should have to q, just as the men do.
I guess the more important question is: Are we THAT bored that we are gonna make this tpic active again?? :p

vapoolplayer
04-21-2005, 05:28 AM
Drivermaker, I agree...the women should have to q, just as the men do.
I guess the more important question is: Are we THAT bored that we are gonna make this tpic active again?? :p


i'm pretty bored................

men are better than women anyway :p

that should work wonders.........

VAP

paulybatz
04-21-2005, 05:36 AM
Pool is becoming just like any other sport, its about money, television time and sponsors. And the industry will do anything it can to please the sponsors. Whatever you dont like about it, its not going to change but get worse.

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 06:24 AM
Drivermaker, I agree...the women should have to q, just as the men do.
I guess the more important question is: Are we THAT bored that we are gonna make this tpic active again?? :p


Yes...boredom has definitely set in. Now....take off your clothes. :p :eek:

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 08:53 AM
I'm available for sponsorship! Do I have to make a ball?

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 09:11 AM
I'm available for sponsorship! Do I have to make a ball?


I'm not a sponsor, but I think most of them would just say to delete "make a".

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 09:15 AM
I'm not a sponsor, but I think most of them would just say to delete "make a".

"Do I have to ball"?? lol

ScottR
04-21-2005, 09:17 AM
"Do I have to ball"?? lol
Why does Drivermaker get all the cute ones???? :confused:

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 09:21 AM
Why does Drivermaker get all the cute ones???? :confused:


OK...you're a good guy. I'll trade you LS77 for a Larry Csonka and Dan Marino card. :D (How about a Roger Clemmons too)

landshark77
04-21-2005, 09:27 AM
OK...you're a good guy. I'll trade you LS77 for a Larry Csonka and Dan Marino card. :D (How about a Roger Clemmons too)

Hold on a damn second! I am NOT for trade. And if I was, Drivermaker, you NEVER owned me to begin with....at least not in real life...maybe in your dreams!

ScottR
04-21-2005, 09:30 AM
OK...you're a good guy. I'll trade you LS77 for a Larry Csonka and Dan Marino card. :D (How about a Roger Clemmons too)
Uh-uh. No way. Best I can trade you is a rare, one could almost say priceless, CUSTOM cue made by none other than Backyard-Storage-Shed-Bobby Shermon. Huh? Huh? We gotta deal??? ;)

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 09:31 AM
Hold on a damn second! I am NOT for trade. And if I was, Drivermaker, you NEVER owned me to begin with....at least not in real life...maybe in your dreams!


It doesn't matter...he PM'd me and said he wouldn't make that trade in a million years and wanted to know if I'd completely lost my marbles. :eek:

BazookaJoe
04-21-2005, 09:47 AM
How about a John Rocker rookie card and a jar of Skippy peanut butter?

ScottR
04-21-2005, 10:06 AM
Hold on a damn second! I am NOT for trade. And if I was, Drivermaker, you NEVER owned me to begin with....at least not in real life...maybe in your dreams!
Don't turn your panties into a thong. You're just too popular on here and everyone wants to get your attention. :D

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 10:32 AM
Don't turn your panties into a thong. You're just too popular on here and everyone wants to get your attention. :D


Now I have everyone upset with me. Scott feels like I was hustling him and giving a raw deal because I asked for so many cards....and LS77 is pissed at me because she feels that she was at least worth a Jerome Bettis in addition to all the rest. Man...some days you just can't win. :(
Here I am just trying to be a really nice guy to find a home for her, and look what happens. :confused: :(

landshark77
04-21-2005, 11:37 AM
Now I have everyone upset with me. Scott feels like I was hustling him and giving a raw deal because I asked for so many cards....and LS77 is pissed at me because she feels that she was at least worth a Jerome Bettis in addition to all the rest. Man...some days you just can't win. :(
Here I am just trying to be a really nice guy to find a home for her, and look what happens. :confused: :(
I appreciate the help, but the fact is I am more than perfectly happy where I am. I am sorry to get your hopes up boys :rolleyes: but maybe you should play with that other chick??

ScottR
04-21-2005, 11:40 AM
I appreciate the help, but the fact is I am more than perfectly happy where I am. I am sorry to get your hopes up boys :rolleyes: but maybe you should play with that other chick??
Are you trying to sic us on Rousey now???? I thought she was your bud. :confused:

landshark77
04-21-2005, 11:47 AM
Are you trying to sic us on Rousey now???? I thought she was your bud. :confused:

No not her. :rolleyes: That process is finished. I'm talking about that OTHER chick you boys have been going crazy over. The one that I say is an imposter. :p

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 12:11 PM
No not her. :rolleyes: That process is finished. I'm talking about that OTHER chick you boys have been going crazy over. The one that I say is an imposter. :p

I believe LS is referring to me lol She thinks I'm someone she calls "Peter" but her sources are checking me out. I gave her my mobile number. With that she can easily verify who I am: enter it into the reverse phone directory online, which would bring up the carrier (which is SprintPCS), call the carrier to inquire about the bill, at which point they would ask her to verify the name on the account, and ta-da - she will find out that I really am who I say I am and not who she says I am when I don't even know who she is :p

ScottR
04-21-2005, 12:22 PM
I believe LS is referring to me lol She thinks I'm someone she calls "Peter" but her sources are checking me out. I gave her my mobile number. With that she can easily verify who I am: enter it into the reverse phone directory online, which would bring up the carrier (which is SprintPCS), call the carrier to inquire about the bill, at which point they would ask her to verify the name on the account, and ta-da - she will find out that I really am who I say I am and not who she says I am when I don't even know who she is :p
YOWWWWCH!! That last part made my head hurt! :(

Hey, LS. I said it before and I'll say it again. She is who she said she is. Need totally independent proof? Check out Chris Hightower's latest post in the SE Open thread about seeing her at the tournament last weekend.

Of course, conspiracy theories are SO much more fun, huh?
Scott

landshark77
04-21-2005, 12:30 PM
YOWWWWCH!! That last part made my head hurt! :(

Hey, LS. I said it before and I'll say it again. She is who she said she is. Need totally independent proof? Check out Chris Hightower's latest post in the SE Open thread about seeing at the tournament last weekend.

Of course, conspiracy theories are SO much more fun, huh?
Scott

Oh no doubt Marissa Yi is real. Just like two other ladies that were "posting" on this forum are real. But how do you know it is actually HER posting on this forum?? :confused: As a matter of fact...can you prove you are you and I am me?? I have said this before...in the end, it is just the internet...a cure for my boredom problem...which is quickly working its way away, lol! :D

Just remember...just because your paranoid doesn't mean that they AREN'T after you.

1pRoscoe
04-21-2005, 12:33 PM
I'd have doubts about anyone with a signature like that....

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 01:11 PM
I'd have doubts about anyone with a signature like that....

What's wrong with my signature??

Rackin_Zack
04-21-2005, 01:14 PM
What's wrong with my signature??

I think he might be implying that you're too good to be true?!

1pRoscoe
04-21-2005, 01:18 PM
I think he might be implying that you're too good to be true?!

Or attempting to come across that way.....

Hell, a Glamour Shot could make Janet Reno hot....

Wally in Cincy
04-21-2005, 01:21 PM
Or attempting to come across that way.....

Hell, a Glamour Shot could make Janet Reno hot....

http://www.columbusgachamber.com/MembershipNewsletter/20050404/

scroll down, just above the lava lamps, on the right

she looks pretty cute there

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 01:26 PM
Or attempting to come across that way.....

Hell, a Glamour Shot could make Janet Reno hot....

The one I have up now is from modelling/spokesmodelling. I've stated before that I'm just average. I just happen to take good pictures. How many models do you know are as beautiful as they seem in their photographs? Is this better?

1pRoscoe
04-21-2005, 01:27 PM
http://www.columbusgachamber.com/MembershipNewsletter/20050404/

scroll down, just above the lava lamps, on the right

she looks pretty cute there

Yeah, she is.... Not like Anna Kournikova cute, but more of a bangbus sorta cute.

No need to stroke her ego, it appears to be quite inflated.

:D

1pRoscoe
04-21-2005, 01:28 PM
The one I have up now is from modelling/spokesmodelling. I've stated before that I'm just average. I just happen to take good pictures. How many models do you know are as beautiful as they seem in their photographs? Is this better?

I was actually referring to how you keep going on about "don't I look younger" or things of that nature....

Yes, you look 27.

ScottR
04-21-2005, 01:31 PM
Or attempting to come across that way.....

Hell, a Glamour Shot could make Janet Reno hot....
Normally, I'd have to agree. But, on second thought, no, it couldn't. :p

landshark77
04-21-2005, 01:36 PM
Yes, you look 27.
Ross, I'm just gonna have to put my foot down on this one! Please don't insult the lady! :mad: According to her profile she won't be 27 until June 9th. :rolleyes: I know because I am 27 and I know what year you have to be born in to be 27! :p

Now apologize!

1pRoscoe
04-21-2005, 01:38 PM
Ross, I'm just gonna have to put my foot down on this one! Please don't insult the lady! :mad: According to her profile she won't be 27 until June 9th. :rolleyes: I know because I am 27 and I know what year you have to be born in to be 27! :p

Now apologize!

I'm 27 and look 27 as well. :D

I was just going off what she said.

Last I checked this board was bout pool, not a beauty pageant.

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 01:44 PM
Hold on a damn second! I am NOT for trade. And if I was, Drivermaker, you NEVER owned me to begin with....at least not in real life...


Just remember LS, everytime you start howlin', getting all huffy & riled (just like this post) and going off like a box of Chinese firecrackers on New Years....I OWN YOU. And much to your dismay, so does JJ and a couple of others.
At least Pavlov's dogs could learn...I don't know about you though. :D :D ROTFLMAO

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 01:44 PM
I was actually referring to how you keep going on about "don't I look younger" or things of that nature....

Yes, you look 27.

Oh my goodness, I'm having fun... I'm probably the dorkiest chick you'll ever meet! I'm not beautiful, or sexy, or pretty, or borderline cute... I'm AVERAGE!!

DaveK
04-21-2005, 02:11 PM
Yes, you look 27.

Maybe more, those photos could be years old, who knows ... but she has been acting a lot younger, imo, a very foolish girl. My 10 year old knows better than to put personal information on the Internet ! Having said that I see where she has removed her employers company name and replaced it with a generic description ...

Dave

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 02:40 PM
I was raised in a very "restricted" environment growing up. So I know I'm too trusting, et cetera, but if growing up means becoming callous, I'd rather be naïve. Am I alone in believing that good exists in the world?

landshark77
04-21-2005, 03:57 PM
Just remember LS, everytime you start howlin', getting all huffy & riled (just like this post) and going off like a box of Chinese firecrackers on New Years....I OWN YOU. And much to your dismay, so does JJ and a couple of others.
At least Pavlov's dogs could learn...I don't know about you though. :D :D ROTFLMAO
Well, with Pavlov's dogs I don't think they fully comprehended the correlation with the bell and the salivation. :rolleyes: I, on the other hand, fully understand that certain people try to get a reaction outta me on purpose...thus there is no ownership. I CHOOSE to play along when I want.

And as far as JJ goes...he is still a dumb jackass.

sjm
04-21-2005, 04:16 PM
Oh my goodness, I'm having fun... I'm probably the dorkiest chick you'll ever meet! I'm not beautiful, or sexy, or pretty, or borderline cute... I'm AVERAGE!!

Marissa, you're probably very nice, and it by no means my intent to give you a hard time here, but seriously, don't you think you've painted a somewhat different picture than what you claim here? After all, you refer to yourself as Southern Angel, you post provocative avatar after avatar in which you show bare shoulders and no visible clothing, you mention you've modeled, and you comment about your own sexual orientations. In view of the picture you've painted of yourself, maybe it's time to stop acting surprised when posters perceive you in a way that is consistent with that picture, which nobody would mistake for that of a dorky, average young woman.

Just some friendly advice that I hope will be taken the right way.

vapoolplayer
04-21-2005, 05:02 PM
but more of a bangbus sorta cute.

:D

ok, no insult to anyone here.............but i almost spit out my tea laughing at that............thats the funniest shit i've read on here in a long time.

VAP(high 5's roscoe for that one)

fxskater
04-21-2005, 05:04 PM
yeah i loved the BANGBUS cute comment too. I just didn't wanna insult any of the fine ladies on this board. Bangbus cute though, ROFLMAO.....

FXSkAtEr<<<<< High fives Rosco too... funniest thing I've read on here PERIOD.

APA7
04-21-2005, 06:06 PM
I appreciate the help, but the fact is I am more than perfectly happy where I am. I am sorry to get your hopes up boys :rolleyes: but maybe you should play with that other chick??


Sounds like someone is not happy because she's not the center of attention anymore :D :eek: :rolleyes:


Brian

Sweet Marissa
04-21-2005, 06:47 PM
Sounds like someone is not happy because she's not the center of attention anymore :D :eek: :rolleyes:


Brian

Hey now, seems to me that LS is the coolest chick on here :cool:

Jon
04-21-2005, 08:13 PM
DM,
I'll trade you three Moochi's, and a carved handle taiwan cue, along with a pack of Camel Turkish Silver's and a bagel for LS77.
:D

BazookaJoe
04-22-2005, 04:33 AM
Okay, the offer is now a half jar of peanut butter.

drivermaker
04-22-2005, 05:17 AM
Well, with Pavlov's dogs I don't think they fully comprehended the correlation with the bell and the salivation.


Yes, the bell and salivation was Dr. Pavlov's methodology. Dr. Driverov also rings some bells but prefers frothing, foaming, and heavy drool coming from the mouths of his puppies. Both ways work, but Driverov's technique gets immediate and much more intense responses than mere salivation, as evidenced by you...one of the favorite and most responsive pooches of the litter. Just relax for now, I won't ignore you...I'll summon a lilttle later today.

Ding-a-ling; ding-a-ling; ding-a-ling; ding-a-ling; ding-a-ling; ding-a-ling

landshark77
04-22-2005, 05:19 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Boys.....geez......

Marissa...there is a message for you in the NPR forum. It wasn't pool related so I didn't wanna stick it up here.

lukeinva
04-22-2005, 05:30 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Boys.....geez......

Marissa...there is a message for you in the NPR forum. It wasn't pool related so I didn't wanna stick it up here.


Now you got everyone running around to see what you wrote!!! You love it that we follow you!!!! LOL :D

1pRoscoe
04-22-2005, 05:41 AM
Marissa, you're probably very nice, and it by no means my intent to give you a hard time here, but seriously, don't you think you've painted a somewhat different picture than what you claim here? After all, you refer to yourself as Southern Angel, you post provocative avatar after avatar in which you show bare shoulders and no visible clothing, you mention you've modeled, and you comment about your own sexual orientations. In view of the picture you've painted of yourself, maybe it's time to stop acting surprised when posters perceive you in a way that is consistent with that picture, which nobody would mistake for that of a dorky, average young woman.

Just some friendly advice that I hope will be taken the right way.

Wow, that's what I meant to say if I were to be PC about it. Great post as always, SJM.

VAP(high 5's roscoe for that one)


FXSkAtEr<<<<< High fives Rosco too... funniest thing I've read on here PERIOD.

Glad I could help spice up your day... hehe

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 05:46 AM
What does "bangbus" mean? I asked another girl and she doesn't know either.

lukeinva
04-22-2005, 05:49 AM
What does "bangbus" mean? I asked another girl and she doesn't know either.

go to google and type the word in you will find out EXACTLY what it means.
Dont do this at work!!

But I will give you a definition just in case you dont want to go. Its where a girl gets banged (has sex) on a bus with a bunch of different guys!

ScottR
04-22-2005, 05:49 AM
What does "bangbus" mean? I asked another girl and she doesn't know either.
Ummmm.....I don't think you want to know. :rolleyes:

drivermaker
04-22-2005, 05:59 AM
Don't be hurt Marissa...we still love you. It's just part of the hazing and initiation process. Hey Roscoe's avatar isn't his pet...that's really HIM!

Jon
04-22-2005, 06:08 AM
Don't be hurt Marissa...we still love you. It's just part of the hazing and initiation process.

Driver is right (yet again.)
Now where is that damn bus?

Mike Templeton
04-22-2005, 06:11 AM
but maybe you should play with that other chick??
L/S,
I'm sorry, LS, but I can't help but to hit on you.

A wanton, herbivorous reptile misanthrope and blaspheme in a straight jacket...... damn! To quote my friend Paris, "That's Hot".

I'm still firmly planted in your camp. Again, like my friend Paris says....Damn, That's Hot!

vapoolplayer
04-22-2005, 06:40 AM
What does "bangbus" mean? I asked another girl and she doesn't know either.


ok i don't want to post the link on here for obvious reasons............so marrissa, just put www.(the word in quotations above).com into your browser...........you'll get a kick out of it i'm sure..........



oh wait, did she say she had christian values..........ooops, you might not want to look at that link after all......... :eek:

VAP

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 07:13 AM
Well, I'm glad someone told me before I did a search! Not to sound like a prude, but I don't view pornographic materials... I think it's immoral. (Y'all laugh, I'm used to it :cool: )

1pRoscoe
04-22-2005, 07:20 AM
Guess I'm pretty damn immoral then! :D

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 07:27 AM
Guess I'm pretty damn immoral then! :D

Oh no! That's not meant to call anyone immoral. I don't vilify anyone else's beliefs because they don't coincide with mine.

No wonder I'm single, though, right? lol

ScottR
04-22-2005, 07:29 AM
Oh no! That's not meant to call anyone immoral. I don't vilify anyone else's beliefs because they don't coincide with mine.

No wonder I'm single, though, right? lol
No. It's all your other vices that scare people away! :p

chefjeff
04-22-2005, 07:33 AM
Well, I'm glad someone told me before I did a search! Not to sound like a prude, but I don't view pornographic materials... I think it's immoral. (Y'all laugh, I'm used to it :cool: )

I understand that some think porn is immoral. That makes perfect sense.

But, frankly, I don't believe it, coming from a person who uses what appears to be a naked picture of herself right next to the "anti-porn" message.

You can't have it both ways.

Jeff Livingston

lukeinva
04-22-2005, 07:39 AM
I understand that some think porn is immoral. That makes perfect sense.

But, frankly, I don't believe it, coming from a person who uses what appears to be a naked picture of herself right next to the "anti-porn" message.

You can't have it both ways.

Jeff Livingston

Yeah marissa I thought you liked it both ways also isnt that immoral? But this is a pool site so how is your stroke?? Because if its good you can go to another website!! LOL HEHEHEHE :D

JAM
04-22-2005, 07:41 AM
Jeezy peezy, this thread has taken a lot of twists and turns! :p

In an effort to get back on topic -- women and pool -- I thought I'd post an interesting comment from WPBA Pro Players Karen Corr and Julie Kelly. This past weekend at the Joss tourney in Albany, a bunch of us were hanging out front of the Golden Cue.

I asked Julie about Kelly Fisher's recent surge on the ladies pro tour circuit. She and Karen both were saying that whenever a player comes from a snooker background and enters the wonderful world of 9-ball, they seem to play the game of 9-ball quite well, shooting balls from just about anywhere and pocketing them.

Yesterday, I watched the match between Karen Corr and Kelly Fisher on ESPN2 and was impressed at the way Kelly Fisher snookered her opponent and ran out effortlessly. I also enjoyed seeing the Shot of the Day when Karen Corr made the 9-ball on the break and followed it in with body english. :D

Considering Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, and Julie Kelly have a very strong snooker background, and with Kelly Fisher who is a great snooker player being the new kid on the American 9-ball circuit, I tend to agree with Julie and Karen that a player who's proficient in snooker will excell in 9-ball on a 4-1/2-by-9. Any thoughts?

JAM

drivermaker
04-22-2005, 07:47 AM
Considering Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, and Julie Kelly have a very strong snooker background, and with Kelly Fisher who is a great snooker player being the new kid on the American 9-ball circuit, I tend to agree with Julie and Karen that a player who's proficient in snooker will excell in 9-ball on a 4-1/2-by-9. Any thoughts?

JAM


Their history in snooker and immediate success in 9-ball definitely bears that out.

Now, can we just get back to trash talk and conversations of a sexual nature? :p :D

Rackin_Zack
04-22-2005, 07:55 AM
Yesterday, I watched the match between Karen Corr and Kelly Fisher on ESPN2 and was impressed at the way Kelly Fisher snookered her opponent and ran out effortlessly.

Well, I was very impressed with Kelly's game in the final day of the tourney in Alpine, CA a couple of weeks ago! She didn't play that strongly the entire tourney, but by golly, she turned it on the last day. I believe she essentially broke and ran 7 or 8 racks in a row, losing me a dollar to AuntyDan, which I have yet to pay...lol.

As far as playing high level 9-ball after being a world champion in snooker, I would say that there are huge advantages. Just the table being 3' shorter and 1.5' more narrow with flat faced pockets is huge! I know when I play snooker for a while on the ten footers around here I generally play better on the nine footers afterwards. I think that the biggest difference though is that you have to have such good fundamentals to play high-level snooker that when they come over here they dominate the pool players who have been playing on ever loosening nine foot tables causing them to get, for lack of a better word, sloppy fundamentals, comparitively speaking that is.

JAM
04-22-2005, 07:59 AM
Their history in snooker and immediate success in 9-ball definitely bears that out....

If snooker enhances one's 9-ball game, whether male or female, it would seem prudent to me that players would want to develop their snooker skills.

A month or so ago, UPA Touring Pro Mike Davis decided to take a crack at playing snooker in Bill and Billie's in Arnold, MD, which has two fine snooker tables, very well maintained. Never having played the game before, I was shocked at how well he was pocketing those tiny balls in the teeny pockets on a very BIG field of green. There's definitely a different stroke utilized, from what I can gather, but it seems to me like playing snooker would help to strengthen one's hand-and-eye coordination. JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

drivermaker
04-22-2005, 08:02 AM
If snooker enhances one's 9-ball game, whether male or female, it would seem prudent to me that players would want to develop their snooker skills.

A month or so ago, UPA Touring Pro Mike Davis decided to take a crack at playing snooker in Bill and Billie's in Arnold, MD, which has two fine snooker tables, very well maintained. Never having played the game before, I was shocked at how well he was pocketing those tiny balls in the teeny pockets on a very BIG field of green. There's definitely a different stroke utilized, from what I can gather, but it seems to me like playing snooker would help to strengthen one's hand-and-eye coordination. JMHO, FWIW!

JAM


Out of curiosity, how does Keith play on a snooker table, and if he spends any length of time there does it seem to sharpen him for the smaller table and bigger pockets?

landshark77
04-22-2005, 08:05 AM
If snooker enhances one's 9-ball game, whether male or female, it would seem prudent to me that players would want to develop their snooker skills.



If you think about it, ALL Billiards games will have a benefit to help out with another. IMO one pocket and 14.1 are essential games to know also. Even 8ball can help out with 9ball and vise versa.

Now I believe Drivermaker made a simple request....LMAO! :p :D ;)

Rackin_Zack
04-22-2005, 08:08 AM
Now I believe Drivermaker made a simple request....LMAO! :p :D ;)

Yeah, this thread is the most action I've had since JimBo crushed my hopes and dreams!! :P

drivermaker
04-22-2005, 08:10 AM
If you think about it, ALL Billiards games will have a benefit to help out with another. IMO one pocket and 14.1 are essential games to know also. Even 8ball can help out with 9ball and vise versa.



Holy Moly....I had no idea you knew so much about pool...I'm impressed! :rolleyes: :p

1pRoscoe
04-22-2005, 08:12 AM
If you think about it, ALL Billiards games will have a benefit to help out with another. IMO one pocket and 14.1 are essential games to know also. Even 8ball can help out with 9ball and vise versa.

Now I believe Drivermaker made a simple request....LMAO! :p :D ;)

You copied that from a previous post of mine!!!!

landshark77
04-22-2005, 08:14 AM
You copied that from a previous post of mine!!!!
Slanderous "LIAR" :rolleyes:

1pRoscoe
04-22-2005, 08:16 AM
Slanderous "LIAR" :rolleyes:

"Gremlin" wanna be......

Cheers,

Ross

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 08:17 AM
There's a big difference between pornography and artistic nudity... and no, Playboy does NOT fall into the latter.

ScottR
04-22-2005, 08:18 AM
Holy Moly....I had no idea you knew so much about pool...I'm impressed! :rolleyes: :p
Naaahhhhh. If you read (and hijack - :D ) enough threads, you figure out what to regurgitate to sound knowledgeable. :p

1pRoscoe
04-22-2005, 08:18 AM
There's a big difference between pornography and artistic nudity... and no, Playboy does NOT fall into the latter.

How would you know? You don't view pornographic material, which Playboy would technically fall in, however it is artistic-y.

JAM
04-22-2005, 08:18 AM
Out of curiosity, how does Keith play on a snooker table, and if he spends any length of time there does it seem to sharpen him for the smaller table and bigger pockets?

Without revealing his hand, so to speak, Keith knows his way around on a snooker table and can move just as good as the best of 'em. There's a snooker player from Liverpool, England, who's getting backed by a local with deep pockets looking to play Keith a little 9-ball. This snooker player has been beating the pants off quite a few local players and is getting steered. Pookie was supposed to play him for an undisclosed amount, but Pookie ended up being a no-show, most likely because he's enjoying poker these days.

In Richmond, Virginia last year, Pookie played Keith even up on the snooker table. Keith ended up losing a couple games to him. Keith was getting backed and his backers pulled up after seeing that exhibition. :eek:

A month or so later, Pookie wanted to match up with Keith over at Bill and Billie's in Arnold, Maryland, and so we complied. On the way over, I'm sweating it big time, stating to Keith, "WHEN is the last time you even played snooker?" Keith replied, "Believe me when I tell you, if there was ever a game I know I will win, it is this one." At a nickel a pop, Keith ended up beating Pookie five games.

The PP 9-Ball Tour TD Nick "The Bald Guy" Prinsloo plays all games well. He lived in South Africa for a while and played snooker there. Keith and Nick have played snooker on several occasions, and Keith ended up beating him a couple times. However, the LAST time they matched up, Nick spanked Keith pretty good. They would have kept playing except the pool room closed at 4:00 a.m. and the time was $150. I enjoyed watching them play and look forward to seeing Nick and Keith match up once more.

It took me several sessions of watching snooker to figure out how many points each of the colored balls were, not to mention how they keep score. It's definitely entertaining, and I am looking forward to the my next snooker session as a railbird.

We will be hunting down the player from Liverpool in the very near future, but the two of them will be playing 9-ball for my dough! :p

Two pool rooms in my area which have snooker tables are The Playing Field in Richmond, Virginia, and Bill and Billie's in Arnold, Maryland. Both pool rooms keep these snooker tables well maintained!

JAM

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 08:19 AM
All games can offer improvement to different aspects of one's game.

Jude Rosenstock
04-22-2005, 09:26 AM
How would you know? You don't view pornographic material, which Playboy would technically fall in, however it is artistic-y.


I think one can look no further than the audience and the intended reaction. Playboy isn't looking to win a Pulitzer but if they do, save me a copy!

Chuck Raulston
04-22-2005, 09:28 AM
I can attest to what Sarah is saying about her break speed. My break speed in that contest was around 28.0, and I witnessed Sarah break 29.0. I was astonished. I have to say that in my opinion Sarah has for sure the hardest and probably the best break in women's pool. I also believe she will be climbing the rankings into the top five very soon.

Chuck Raulston

vapoolplayer
04-22-2005, 09:57 AM
Out of curiosity, how does Keith play on a snooker table, ?

does he........he does very well IMO

i'll give you an example of what its like to see keith play (i had the honor of keeping score for a snooker game of keith's, jam you may remember this, he played "da bald guy" in richmond, and came out on top)

this is what it was like.........you heard two sounds........the ball being hit and the back of the pocket.........

zinggggggggg................bappppppppppp

he was firing them in a 100 mph, banking the ball.............i was very very very impressed.


on another note, i play on a snooker table a couple times a week (not the small american table....the full 12 ft) and after a couple hours of that, a 9 ft looks like a barbox.

VAP

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 10:23 AM
That reminds me of a time when I (unwillingly) backed someone playing snooker down at Depot Billiards here in Columbus. I don't think he made a ball. When they were done, I asked him why he played him if he wasn't any good, to which he said, "Well, let's see how good you are" and set up a shot for me, which I snapped in, as well as the next three or four shots he set up. His reply then: "I guess I should have had you play him." lol

Snapshot9
04-22-2005, 10:54 AM
Because:

They are younger in the sport than men, and most are afraid getting humilated.
think Jr. High player playing Sr. High ...

Allison and Karen would only finish 9-12th at the best. Few women have entered men's tournaments, about best finish I have heard of is 17th.

Women can not shoot 'muscle shots'. Although most of those come from
men's money matchups rather than TV tournament matches.

Men players have a tendency to intimidate women players, and the women
players become 'flustered'. Ever notice when a woman player that can play some gets 'upset', that she can not get a handle back on her game, much like
young men players.

Men players, professionals, play better safeties than women professional
players, and generally control the cue ball better.

Taking the side break away from 9 ball would greatly affect the women's game, but would not make that much difference for the men.

Jeanette Lee and Allison Fisher are the only 2 woman pros that I have ever
saw shoot a cut shot with inside english and take the cue ball 3 rails for shape
on the next ball at the other end of the table.

I have never seen a woman pro that I didn't feel that I could beat, but have seen many men pros I felt I couldn't beat. (in fact, in 1971, in Houston, I beat the #1 rated woman pro that was the US Open champion right after
Jean Balukis lost out. Her boyfriend was the come on, she was the hammer, but after I took $400 off of her, she quit.)

Jude Rosenstock
04-22-2005, 11:02 AM
Because:
Allison and Karen would only finish 9-12th at the best. Few women have entered men's tournaments, about best finish I have heard of is 17th.


9 through 12 in what? In the U.S. Open, that would be considered a respectable finish. Only contenders finish there. If you're talking about Regional Events, Karen Corr has a Joss win under her belt and numerous finishes above 17th and these are fairly strong Regional events. Not to take away from the gist of your argument. There is still a gap, for the most part but that gap is getting more and more narrow every year. I see that "power" stroke in players like Kelly Fisher and I wouldn't bet that Karen Corr couldn't do ANYTHING. The woman is technically perfect most times I witness her. It's deceiving because many of the women get extremely low on their shots and will avoid popping balls in like men who frequently play a little more upright but I'm not ready to say all of them are not capable.

DaveK
04-22-2005, 12:01 PM
I understand that some think porn is immoral. That makes perfect sense.

But, frankly, I don't believe it, coming from a person who uses what appears to be a naked picture of herself right next to the "anti-porn" message.

You can't have it both ways.

Jeff Livingston

Sure she can, it's a female perogative thing ... you're not married are you Jeff ? ;)

Dave

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 12:28 PM
As a female pool player, I have to agree that men play better overall. Any man can beat the best players on the ladies tour, but not any woman can beat the best players on the mens tour.

landshark77
04-22-2005, 12:35 PM
Any man can beat the best players on the ladies tour

I disagree with that statement. I don't think any man can. Effren or Strickland v. Fisher or Corr...I'd probably stick my money on the boys, though I believe it would be close...it depends on the way they are playing...race, breaks, that kinda thing. But can say Jake in Florida kick say Sarah Rousey's ass?? Not even a chance. Hell my bet is even Mello can kick Jake's ass. :eek:

Koop
04-22-2005, 12:54 PM
FWIW, a couple of years ago at the Joss finale I watched Bustamante play Karen Corr and it went hill-hill with Bustamante taking it. Could have gone either way in the last game with a safety battle but it was definitely a great match. I don't know how consistent that outcome would be but that match proved to a lot of people that Karen could hold her own with the men, including myself.

Dave

ScottR
04-22-2005, 01:00 PM
I believe I've heard that Sarah gambles. I'm sure others do on occasion also. Are there any "hardcore" female road-warriors out there? Other WPBA members that gamble frequently? Oops. . . . I mean practice for "table time and sasparillas". :p

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 01:48 PM
I believe I've heard that Sarah gambles. I'm sure others do on occasion also. Are there any "hardcore" female road-warriors out there? Other WPBA members that gamble frequently? Oops. . . . I mean practice for "table time and sasparillas". :p

I've seen Monica and Helena playing some guys in Atlanta for some, but don't know how they were playing or for what.

Rackin_Zack
04-22-2005, 01:52 PM
I disagree with that statement. I don't think any man can. Effren or Strickland v. Fisher or Corr...I'd probably stick my money on the boys, though I believe it would be close...it depends on the way they are playing...race, breaks, that kinda thing. But can say Jake in Florida kick say Sarah Rousey's ass?? Not even a chance. Hell my bet is even Mello can kick Jake's ass. :eek:

I agree completely with you ls77. Once you get further down in the rankings the field isn't the strongest, but it'll take a pretty strong male player to beat any of the top 15-20 women, imo. That being said I did beat Gerda 2-0 in challenge the pro...lol. However, I have a sneaky suspicion that she may own me in a long race. :)

christyd
04-22-2005, 01:58 PM
I believe I've heard that Sarah gambles. I'm sure others do on occasion also. Are there any "hardcore" female road-warriors out there? Other WPBA members that gamble frequently? Oops. . . . I mean practice for "table time and sasparillas". :p


I love to gamble :D

vapoolplayer
04-22-2005, 03:40 PM
Are there any "hardcore" female road-warriors out there? :p

i'm totally agains mentioning names, as to not knock peoples action.so i'll just say she's pretty well known, nicknamed the "road warrior". she gambles ALL the time, always in some action. i'm sure someone will go ahead and mention her name here.

VAP

chefjeff
04-22-2005, 03:49 PM
Sure she can, it's a female perogative thing ... you're not married are you Jeff ? ;)

Dave

Yes, I am married...and my comment about "both ways" was NOT meant to be a sexual innuendo. It was meant to highlight the poster's demonstration of words explicitly contradicting behavior.

I know your comment is light-hearted, and I appreciate all the humor here, but being a baby boomer, I've about had it with the double standard bullshit. I've lived with it for years and it is only getting more and more stupid and destructive to relationships.

Does it really matter? Well, a leader in one of the dumbest organizations on planet earth has become the ultimate outcome of such perverted thinking:

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0420.html

This article is an example of pure violence and certainly is not what is happening here, but the thinking processes and contradictions are the exact same.

Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

Jeff Livingston

DaveK
04-22-2005, 04:01 PM
Yes, I am married...and my comment about "both ways" was NOT meant to be a sexual innuendo. It was meant to highlight the poster's demonstration of words explicitly contradicting behavior.

I know your comment is light-hearted, and I appreciate all the humor here, but being a baby boomer, I've about had it with the double standard bullshit. I've lived with it for years and it is only getting more and more stupid and destructive to relationships.

I agree totally agree. My comment was light-hearted, and meant to be somewhat humourous, but grounded in truth. If it upset or offended you in any way I appologize, that was never my intent. I just see a lot of double standards and point some out. The one in question here also struck me as playing both sides.

Dave, a late boomer at 47

chefjeff
04-22-2005, 04:06 PM
If it upset or offended you in any way I appologize,
Dave, a late boomer at 47

Not a bit, buddy...I always appreciate your posts.

Sincerely,

Jeff Livingston

drivermaker
04-22-2005, 04:10 PM
Well, a leader in one of the dumbest organizations on planet earth has become the ultimate outcome of such perverted thinking:

[url]http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0420.html[/url
Jeff Livingston


Good points and great article...but I don't know how in the hell you even ended up there and found it. Just clicking on gave me the willys. UGH!! That's some sick *****es in THAT organization.

chefjeff
04-22-2005, 04:27 PM
Good points and great article...but I don't know how in the hell you even ended up there and found it. Just clicking on gave me the willys. UGH!! That's some sick *****es in THAT organization.

I can't seem to get out of this discussion... :eek:

The author, Wendy McElroy, founded ifeminist, I think. She is one hell of a brilliant writer and I've read much of her stuff. There's a link on that page to her main site. I found out about her because I get much of my news via email from rationalreview, and that's where I found this article. Here's today's version, if you're interested. If you like the evening tv news, you'll hate this stuff. If you hate the evening news, you just might like this stuff:

http://www.rationalreview.com/news/

Enjoy,

Jeff Livingston

Sweet Marissa
04-22-2005, 05:10 PM
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0420.html

This article is an example of pure violence and certainly is not what is happening here, but the thinking processes and contradictions are the exact same.

Jeff Livingston

That article really pissed me off. Rape is nothing to joke about. It robs you of your dignity, security, and self-respect. I can't believe someone would make a fale accusation of rape for attention. I feel sick thinking about it.

cuechick
04-22-2005, 06:34 PM
I believe I've heard that Sarah gambles. I'm sure others do on occasion also. Are there any "hardcore" female road-warriors out there? Other WPBA members that gamble frequently? Oops. . . . I mean practice for "table time and sasparillas". :p

I gamble as well, but not with friends...I know Rachel Abbink gambles and has hit Atlanta a few times...and quite a few other women on the tour do.

just from my experiance, I find it is easy sometimes, to get weight from lesser players...just because they underestimate me.
When I was in Athens, I had a regular game with a guy who gave me the 8, and I could have easily have given him the 8. Finnally it hit him, I was beating him bad, and this kid who knew me was watching, and when he saw what the game was, he blurted out "your giving her the 8?!"
Ce la vie...he quit on me after that, oh well...but I play cheap sets, just to get a game. I would like to start raising the stakes a bit...but I know never to gamble more than you can afford to lose.

Rickw
04-22-2005, 10:50 PM
Any man can beat the best players on the ladies tour, but not any woman can beat the best players on the mens tour.

Marissa,

I really have to take exception to this comment. I watch the women play on TV and I am very impressed with the top 8 players. I really don't think any man could beat one of them especially Jeanette, Helena, Ga Young Kim, Gerta, Karen and Allison. I do believe there are some exceptionally good male players that are not on the pro tour that could beat them. I just don't see much wrong with Allison's game and I'm actually very impressed with what I see of her. She moves that cb around the table effortlessly even if she has to draw the length of the table. That's impressive to me! I don't think there are very many non-pro male players that are going to like playing her for the cash.

lukeinva
04-22-2005, 11:27 PM
I gamble as well, but not with friends...I know Rachel Abbink gambles and has hit Atlanta a few times...and quite a few other women on the tour do.

just from my experiance, I find it is easy sometimes, to get weight from lesser players...just because they underestimate me.
When I was in Athens, I had a regular game with a guy who gave me the 8, and I could have easily have given him the 8. Finnally it hit him, I was beating him bad, and this kid who knew me was watching, and when he saw what the game was, he blurted out "your giving her the 8?!"
Ce la vie...he quit on me after that, oh well...but I play cheap sets, just to get a game. I would like to start raising the stakes a bit...but I know never to gamble more than you can afford to lose.


If you ever come to virginia look me up! I will play you! but I need at least the 7 and the breaks!!

lukeinva
04-22-2005, 11:30 PM
I love to gamble :D


for what??

drivermaker
04-23-2005, 05:12 AM
When I was in Athens, I had a regular game with a guy who gave me the 8, and I could have easily have given him the 8. Finnally it hit him, I was beating him bad,


You might be a good player, but it sounds to me like you have a LOT to learn.
You should NEVER have been beating him bad. Quit being such an exhibitionist and showing your ass. You'll make a lot more money, honey. ;)

christyd
04-23-2005, 07:13 AM
for what??

money.....this is a pool forum...remember?? :D

Ken_4fun
04-23-2005, 11:01 AM
money.....this is a pool forum...remember?? :D


I think gambling helps Christyd focus. She is my buddy and all, but she is a ball or maybe 2 when it is for money verses small tourneyments. I really dont understand it and I have seen it with others too. Even if the tourneyment paid the same as she better gambling.

Ken

christyd
04-23-2005, 04:05 PM
I think gambling helps Christyd focus. She is my buddy and all, but she is a ball or maybe 2 when it is for money verses small tourneyments. I really dont understand it and I have seen it with others too. Even if the tourneyment paid the same as she better gambling.

Ken

Kenny are you still trying to put me in a trap?? Im on to you buddy :D

Christyd

lukeinva
04-23-2005, 09:00 PM
money.....this is a pool forum...remember?? :D



I thought maybe you gambled for more than money!!! lol :D

landshark77
04-23-2005, 09:07 PM
I thought maybe you gambled for more than money!!! lol :D
Like what Luke...Mercedes and Beamers or designer clothes?? :confused: