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nathandumoulin
10-31-2008, 08:32 AM
I play at a local pool hall regularly.

Rather than carry all my gear around with me (case and 3 cues), I just leave it there when Im done playing. Although they have security boxes for storing equipment, the owner misplaced all the keys. Instead the staff puts my case in a special cupboard that is behind the bar that only they have access to.

A few weeks ago, my gear went missing. I paid about $1400 for it.

Does any one feel that the pool room should be held accountable for the theft? Or am I at fault for being negligent and leaving it there in the first place?

scottp
10-31-2008, 08:36 AM
man thats a tough one ......
i personally would not leave my cues there at all...(but thats just me)
if you know the owner i wouldn't hurt to ask him about it ..but legally i dont know if he would be responsible......
just my 2 cents worth
scott
ps: hate to here about your loss

jrt30004
10-31-2008, 08:43 AM
man that sucks. i will have to say this though - that one is all on you. they aren't going to pick up a dime. and here is why - you essentially left your gear behind the bar. i don't care that the bar staff told you only they go back there. if you can't lock the door yourself, and even then i wouldn't do it, you shouldn't have left it. i worked in the restaraunt business for eight years as a cook and sous chef and i can tell you your gear was never safe. everyone knew it was there and someone told someone who opened his mouth and by then it was gone. i hate to see that happen on pricey pool gear. you can talk to the owner but personally - i don't know what you look like, how big you are or what kind of rep you have, but if you're a little nasty or know someone who is, start "talking" to the bar staff you might even get your stuff back.

nathandumoulin
10-31-2008, 08:45 AM
Thanks.

I do know the owner, but he's not exactly a friendly fellow.

I'm fortunate enough to be getting all new high-end gear from Mezz though (part of a sponsorship deal I have with them).

I still feel at a loss though. One of my cues was a full Predator. I loved it.

poolpop63
10-31-2008, 09:03 AM
Yoy may have a leg to stand on. Since they had security lockers, u had an expectation of ur stuff being secure. When they move it they became liable. Check with ur towns local legal aid office in the phone book. They may be able to stear u in the right direction.

ceebee
10-31-2008, 09:07 AM
If you happen to have any pictures and/or a highly defined description, post it & the members here will watch for it.... Try to watch craigslist & ebay. Send a flyer to pawn shops in the area.

Sorry to hear about your loss... forgive me but I think thieves should be dealt with, in a terribly severe manner. There is no such thing as good theif.

Scott Lee
10-31-2008, 09:10 AM
poolpop63...Nope, this is incorrect. If Nathan had locked his gear in one of the 'security boxes', and it was stolen from there, the room would have liability. By leaving it "with the staff" he assumes all liability, as was noted in a previous post. By his own admission, he left his stuff there because he "didn't feel like carrying it around". It's a shame, because cue thieves should be strung up...but I bet he won't leave his cues anywhere again.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yoy may have a leg to stand on. Since they had security lockers, u had an expectation of ur stuff being secure. When they move it they became liable. Check with ur towns local legal aid office in the phone book. They may be able to stear u in the right direction.

Black-Balled
10-31-2008, 09:10 AM
Yoy may have a leg to stand on. Since they had security lockers, u had an expectation of ur stuff being secure. When they move it they became liable. Check with ur towns local legal aid office in the phone book. They may be able to stear u in the right direction.

No way. the locked area, which may have the presumption of 'security' was unavailable and he chose to use the unsecured location. All on him...

GMAC
10-31-2008, 09:16 AM
poolpop63...Nope, this is incorrect. If Nathan had locked his gear in one of the 'security boxes', and it was stolen from there, the room would have liability. By leaving it "with the staff" he assumes all liability, as was noted in a previous post. By his own admission, he left his stuff there because he "didn't feel like carrying it around". It's a shame, because cue thieves should be strung up...but I bet he won't leave his cues anywhere again.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


When somebody takes your equipment are they not assuming responsibility for it?? They could have and should have told him you can't leave it here because we can't be responsible for anything which isn't secured in a locker. By agreeing to take the equipment and store it in a "safe" place are they not some how responsible.

JB Cases
10-31-2008, 09:18 AM
My cue was stolen from a pool room once. The owner replaced it.

I would guess that there is some kind of business insurance that the owner carries that would cover this. Whether the owner elects to use it or not is another story.

My feeling here is that if he agreed to keep your cues safe and your expectation was that they were kept in a locked environment then the owner ought to replace your stuff. If however you knew that the gear was not being kept in a locked environment then it's on you.

Black-Balled
10-31-2008, 09:28 AM
If the owner carries insurance, he may file a claim for the loss and make you pay the deductible...which- if he has 1/2 a brain- is likely significantly higher than the loss you state.

Of course, filing a claim is going to affect his future renewal cost...back to the 1/2 a brain thing.

He should probably just give you a couple of bucks and ask customers to maintain responsibility for their own stuff.

jay helfert
10-31-2008, 09:42 AM
I play at a local pool hall regularly.

Rather than carry all my gear around with me (case and 3 cues), I just leave it there when Im done playing. Although they have security boxes for storing equipment, the owner misplaced all the keys. Instead the staff puts my case in a special cupboard that is behind the bar that only they have access to.

A few weeks ago, my gear went missing. I paid about $1400 for it.

Does any one feel that the pool room should be held accountable for the theft? Or am I at fault for being negligent and leaving it there in the first place?

Ask the owner to make good. He has insurance! Your second option, Small Claims Court. They may look with favor on you, especially if you can show receipts for the lost merchandise and get one employee to back up your story. You can win this case if you're prepared.

Quesports
10-31-2008, 09:50 AM
I think that since the pool room accepted the equipment they did have to take some responsibility for it's safe keeping regardless of the situation of the lockers. Once they took posession of the items they are responsible. There of course is the value of the items to be considered which is somewhat depreciated by there age and condition at the time of loss.
Sorry for the mess the OP is in and hope the lesson has been learned albeit the hard way!
JMO!!!!
Dan

nfty9er
10-31-2008, 12:08 PM
It is really sad to see that happen in a business. As a room owner I detest thieves, especially ones that may work for me, and there have been a few over 30 years.
But here is your problem regardless of what was expressed by other posters.
If you decide or even the room owner puts your stuff behind the bar the owner only has to take slight care of it in the eyes of the law. He put it in a drawer out of sight. I would suggest that is more than slight care.
However if you pay for that luxury, like a coat check or rental of lockers then he must take "great" care of your items. If you reach that level you can win but since you evidently paid nothing and in the law "hire" him you are lost.
And unlike when you own a car you are required to have insurance, businesses are not required to carry insurance. Considering the state of the economy there are a lot of businesses cutting it out. Liquor liability is out of this world now.

poolpop63
10-31-2008, 12:27 PM
The leg u may have to stand on comes under the heading of " IMPLIED-in-FACT" contract. This is a contract where the agreement of the parties is indicated by their conduct. Since they lost the keys to the lockers, they put ur stuff, still in their care, in another location thus implying and affirming their agreement to keep it safe. Acceptable alternative ways of decribing an IMPLIED contract are: 1, a contract in which the performance of the parties infers agreement,... 2, the parties indicate their agreement to a contract by their actions, rather than by making a promise. So again I say to u.. check with ur local legal aid society in ur town or next biggest town unless u want to eat the $14oo. Its worth a shot. Good luck.

hfelsh
10-31-2008, 01:03 PM
I feel compelled to respond. the owner IS responsible, and they ARE supposed to carry insurance. It's required by law; if someone gets their head cracked open by a bar cue, the establishment is liable. The owner and/or bar staff accepted responsibility for the items when they agreed to store them, paid or not. Loss of your items means THEY, the business, are responsible to replace them. Period.

Was it dumb on your part? Sure. But it doesn't make them any less liable for the loss/theft. :cool:

AnitoKid
10-31-2008, 01:05 PM
I hope the pool room owner replaces your stuff, buddy.


.

smoooothstroke
10-31-2008, 02:56 PM
Businesses often have cameras behind the bar and in kitchen areas.If you can pin down an oprox time the theft accoured maybe you can catch it on tape.

Sounds like you are out of luck though unless the owner offers to compensate you.

Scott Lee
10-31-2008, 03:36 PM
hfelsh...Well, good luck with that approach. A poolroom owner has no liability over something that was stolen from their joint...UNLESS it was under 'lock & key' control, by the owner of the stolen items. In the interest of customer service, they might CHOOSE to reimburse the customer, but they have no legal obligation to.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I feel compelled to respond. the owner IS responsible, and they ARE supposed to carry insurance. It's required by law; if someone gets their head cracked open by a bar cue, the establishment is liable. The owner and/or bar staff accepted responsibility for the items when they agreed to store them, paid or not. Loss of your items means THEY, the business, are responsible to replace them. Period.

poolpop63
10-31-2008, 03:46 PM
The leg u may have to stand on comes under the heading of " IMPLIED-in-FACT" contract. This is a contract where the agreement of the parties is indicated by their conduct. Since they lost the keys to the lockers, they put ur stuff, still in their care, in another location thus implying and affirming their agreement to keep it safe. Acceptable alternative ways of decribing an IMPLIED contract are: 1, a contract in which the performance of the parties infers agreement,... 2, the parties indicate their agreement to a contract by their actions, rather than by making a promise. So again I say to u.. check with ur local legal aid society in ur town or next biggest town unless u want to eat the $14oo. Its worth a shot. Good luck.



checkout IMPLIED-IN-FACT contracts

Scott Lee
10-31-2008, 03:52 PM
poolpop63...In this country, you can sue anybody for any reason. Whether you win or not is the issue. IMO, the OP would not win in this situation.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

highrun55
10-31-2008, 03:56 PM
As a room owner Im always sorry to hear these things.

In my room, they have a cabinet to keep their cue cases in, but I tell them that I will not be responsible for any loss, and they must keep it locked even when they have their cues out to play.

Players are always walking around the room, and we can`t watch all of them.
If I see someone take something thats a hole new deal. Police time.

highrun55

Craig
10-31-2008, 04:02 PM
I feel compelled to respond. the owner IS responsible, and they ARE supposed to carry insurance. It's required by law; if someone gets their head cracked open by a bar cue, the establishment is liable. The owner and/or bar staff accepted responsibility for the items when they agreed to store them, paid or not. Loss of your items means THEY, the business, are responsible to replace them. Period.

Was it dumb on your part? Sure. But it doesn't make them any less liable for the loss/theft. :cool:

And this type of Insurance is general liability-insurance which covers in any act of some one getting hurt/injured in/on the property of the business, general liability insurance does not cover the contents inside the building whether it belongs to you or the pool room.

Scott Lee
10-31-2008, 04:04 PM
Thanks Mickey! I knew that was the case. Perhaps some other room owners would like to chime in, and reiterate the same thing!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As a room owner Im always sorry to hear these things.

In my room, they have a cabinet to keep their cue cases in, but I tell them that I will not be responsible for any loss, and they must keep it locked even when they have their cues out to play.

Players are always walking around the room, and we can`t watch all of them.
If I see someone take something thats a hole new deal. Police time.

highrun55

nympfisher
10-31-2008, 05:16 PM
on the other hand, if this is your favorite room. you do not want to piss off the owner.
so i would not push it too hard


carl

thenuke
10-31-2008, 05:33 PM
Although I really do feel for your loss, might be as bad as losing a pet to some, I have to reply my feelings on this. I am an avid lurker, but for you to want to put the blame on the pool room, for doing you a favor, a convenience to you, seems sort of nitty. Take solace in you new Mezz's.
It is disappointing that some posters always want to blame others than take responsibility for their actions (decisions). You wanted to leave your cues there, even though not fully secure.
Room owners want and need your business and most try to please their customers. In case this, if the owner should find out who took your cues, I am sure they would lose their job and probably be prosecuted.
Would you like to have your room closed or have to charge higher rates for your unwillingness to carry your cue in and out? Let us think of the future of pool and pool rooms in general. SOME POOL PLAYERS DON'T GET IT - REAL POOL PLAYERS DO ! That is my two cents worth. Thanks

JB Cases
10-31-2008, 05:47 PM
And this type of Insurance is general liability-insurance which covers in any act of some one getting hurt/injured in/on the property of the business, general liability insurance does not cover the contents inside the building whether it belongs to you or the pool room.

Actually that is not entirely true. I'd guess it varies from policy to policy. My particular policy covered customer items in my care and I once had to use it to replace $3500 in customer cues that were stolen from my shop.

State Farm paid up when I received letters stating value from Bill Stroud at Joss West and from Schuler Cues and they didn't raise my premium either.

I think that most likely the liability insurance would cover such a loss.

Craig
10-31-2008, 06:11 PM
How General Liability Works

Under a general liability insurance policy, the insurer is obligated to pay the legal costs of a business in a covered liability claim or lawsuit. Covered liability claims include bodily injury, property damage, personal injury, and advertising injury (damage from slander or false advertising). The insurance company also covers compensatory and general damages. Punitive damages aren't covered under general liability insurance policies because they're considered to be punishment for intentional acts.

General liability insurance policies always state a maximum amount that the insurer will pay during the policy period. Usually these policies also list the maximum amount the insurer will pay per occurrence. For example, if a company has a $1 million occurrence cap in its liability policy and it's successfully sued for $1.5 million, the insurer would pay $1 million and the business would be responsible for paying $500,000.

To cover these types of situations, many companies purchase umbrella liability insurance, which picks up where their general liability coverage ends. Umbrella liability covers payments that exceed their other policy's limits, and provides additional coverage for liabilities not covered in a standard liability insurance policy.

Most insurance companies require their policyholders to report as soon as possible any accidents that could lead to a liability claim. The insurer may then require the business owner to document the situation, forward all summonses and legal notices, and cooperate fully in any investigations.

Taking precautions before an accident can help keep your liability and insurance rates down. All businesses can take certain steps to lower the chance of a liability insurance claim:

Set a high standard for product quality control;
Make sure all company records are complete and up-to-date;
Be sure employees are properly trained;
Get safety tips for your type of business from your insurance company.

poolpro
10-31-2008, 07:22 PM
I do not think you would win in court.


I think the owner should offer to compensate you in some way, because iit is good business, NOT because he is legally or otherwise bound to.


I think it is similar to " hey can you keep an eye on my cues? I have to use the bathroom". The guy will almost always say " yeah, sure". You come back and he is on the other side of the pool room with his back turned away from the your cues. Is he responsible if they were stolen?

To me the implied agreement is " if I actually witness someone trying to steal your cues and walk with them, between my shots during my own game, I will challenge them. If I happen to be preoccupied with something
else, I am sorry you lost your cues. I did not come to the pool hall to be a cue babysitter, I came to play pool. I would keep an eye on them, NOT my full attention. Likewise, a pool hall is in the business of renting tables, NOT cue babysitting. As has been said, if there is a lock and key situation and a safe rental is involved, it can be a different story. Even so, there is usually a disclaimer about liablility, or at least a limit to their liablity. They won't cover your $5000 cue, etc etc. You would also have to prove what cue was lost and document its value, than that value would be depreciated for its age and condition,etc.

Obviously if you leave your cue on the table directly next to mine, it is very unlikely that someone will take it without me noticing it. I would make every effort to keep anything from happening to it, but in the end it is your cue, and you had better things to do than watch over it during that time. I would feel terrible, and may offer any help I could, but would not feel obligated for full replacement value of said cue. It was too inconvenient for you to put it away, or take it with you, so you assume the risks with that decision.

I have in the past left the pool room in a hurry and left my cue fully assembled laying on the table. I was more than hlf way home when I suddenly realized this. I called the pool room in a panic and found that my cue had been put away safely behind the counter. It was my fault alone. I happen to get lucky.

I have also had a cue stolen right off a table when I went into the back room to check on some stock. It really sucks, but I had no one to blame but myself.


I have worked in many pool rooms, and have felt comfortable enough to leave my cues in pool rooms ( also ones in which I was not employed). I do not feel that the owner has a responsibility to take care of my cues or replace them if they go missing. In the event of a loss, I may ask the owner what he suggests to do about it, but would not demand it, or take action.

I think a fair solution in many cases would be for the owner to help chip in for the purchase of a new cue. For example if it was a predator, he could order you a new model of comparable value and agree to pay a portion of his wholesale cost for that cue ( with no retail markups). I think it would be a good compromise and you could get another cue for a good deal less than the full replacement costs out of pocket. Though it sounds like you are in good shape with a sponsor, so you are ahead of where a lot of players in a similar situation would be.

Just my take


JW

nathandumoulin
10-31-2008, 07:27 PM
I want to give my thanks to everyone who shared their opinions.

I think I'll make a compromise here and ask for some free table time. As mentioned earlier, my gear is being replaced by Mezz, so I'm not at a total loss. I'd hate to have poor repute at my favorite pool room, so the compromise seems like the best option (in my eyes).

Thanks again everyone.

Tiddler
10-31-2008, 07:47 PM
If I remember my law course correctly, if you hand your things to a staff member who then puts it wherever, they have created a bailment situation and are liable for any losses that occur. However, if you put the cue wherever then there is no bailment created.