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mnShooter
04-15-2005, 08:57 AM
I was working on my english yesterday. Playing with the bridge pivot point. Essentially line up center ball and then pivot on your bridge hand to apply english. I realized something really cool. For slower shots I use a longer bridge ~10" and for faster shots I would use a shorter bridge ~6". I was making almost everything on a 9' Table with pretty tight pockets. I suggest trying it out.

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 09:05 AM
I was working on my english yesterday. Playing with the bridge pivot point. Essentially line up center ball and then pivot on your bridge hand to apply english. I realized something really cool. For slower shots I use a longer bridge ~10" and for faster shots I would use a shorter bridge ~6". I was making almost everything on a 9' Table with pretty tight pockets. I suggest trying it out.


What happens if you're using a Predator?

(guess that vision problem worked it's way out, huh? Those things usually do when you try playing the game completely sober.) :D :p ;)

Barbara
04-15-2005, 09:29 AM
I was working on my english yesterday. Playing with the bridge pivot point. Essentially line up center ball and then pivot on your bridge hand to apply english. I realized something really cool. For slower shots I use a longer bridge ~10" and for faster shots I would use a shorter bridge ~6". I was making almost everything on a 9' Table with pretty tight pockets. I suggest trying it out.

What? Backhand english? No! Never! :rolleyes:

Barbara

vapoolplayer
04-15-2005, 09:35 AM
What? Backhand english? No! Never! :rolleyes:

Barbara


SHHHHHHH!!!! don't say the word's backhand english............you're venturing into the world of mystery here on AZB...........here we go with the flamers :rolleyes:

VAP

Zims Rack
04-15-2005, 09:48 AM
I've just started hearing "backhand english", care to explain exactly what you mean? Some people have different names for the same thing.

Thanks,
Zim

Troy
04-15-2005, 10:14 AM
I don't find any mystery to Backhand English.
Aim your shot through the center of the cue ball, then pivot the back hand to obtain the desired amount of side spin (english) while keeping your bridge hand stable.

Troy

vapoolplayer
04-15-2005, 10:31 AM
I don't find any mystery to Backhand English.
Aim your shot through the center of the cue ball, then pivot the back hand to obtain the desired amount of side spin (english) while keeping your bridge hand stable.

Troy

i was referring to the "other" things that are associated with backhand english.

VAP

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 10:32 AM
I don't find any mystery to Backhand English.
Aim your shot through the center of the cue ball, then pivot the back hand to obtain the desired amount of side spin (english) while keeping your bridge hand stable.

Troy


And what is it called when you aim center ball and swipe your shooting hand slightly to the side when you start your forward stroke to strike the CB?

And what is it called when you place the tip of the cue off center of the CB and then pivot back to the center without moving your bridge hand?

vapoolplayer
04-15-2005, 10:34 AM
And what is it called when you aim center ball and swipe your shooting hand slightly to the side when you start your forward stroke to strike the CB?

And what is it called when you place the tip of the cue off center of the CB and then pivot back to the center without moving your bridge hand?

the above is what i'm talking about............LET THE WAR BEGIN...........LOL

VAP

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 10:36 AM
SHHHHHHH!!!! don't say the word's backhand english............you're venturing into the world of mystery here on AZB...........here we go with the flamers :rolleyes:

VAP


Not so much to the flamers, but to the physics geeks and certified instructors that feel you should only shoot on parallel lines. Ooops, sorry I corrected you....you were right in using "flamers". Sometimes there's another word that follows it though, as in flaming...........

Hal
04-15-2005, 12:13 PM
My wife BACK HANDED me the other day when I told her how much money I lost...

MFB
04-15-2005, 12:23 PM
My wife BACK HANDED me the other day when I told her how much money I lost...

That's your own fault. Don't tell her. Ha-ha.

Course don't tell her when you win either.

I refer that as my rathole money. Buried deep in my wallet.

mnShooter
04-15-2005, 12:38 PM
I've tried parallel english and it doesn't work at all. I always overcut when using inside english. I don't have a predator shaft, just a regular Joss. BTW I thought backhand english was when you pivot during the actual stroke. I am talking about pivoting when lining up the shot.

Troy
04-15-2005, 01:44 PM
The terminology gets confusing when different people use the same term for different things.

I learned that backhand english is when you pivot after aiming.

Pivoting during the stroke is sometimes called "swiping". No matter what it's called, I think it's difficult to master since the amount of side spin is effectively done "on the fly".

Aim and pivoting back to center is another completely different animal.

Parallel aiming / side spin requires compensation for deflection / squirt which is dependent on the specific shaft and it's pivot point.

Troy
I've tried parallel english and it doesn't work at all. I always overcut when using inside english. I don't have a predator shaft, just a regular Joss. BTW I thought backhand english was when you pivot during the actual stroke. I am talking about pivoting when lining up the shot.

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 01:59 PM
BTW I thought backhand english was when you pivot during the actual stroke. I am talking about pivoting when lining up the shot.


Would the final outcome of the tip striking the ball in the same spot not be the same?

mnShooter
04-15-2005, 02:04 PM
Try shooting english with a straight follow through and then try it with a sideways follow through. The ball does not go in the same direction. You get more squirt/deflection with a sideways (away from the cue ball) follow through.

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 02:18 PM
Try shooting english with a straight follow through and then try it with a sideways follow through. The ball does not go in the same direction. You get more squirt/deflection with a sideways (away from the cue ball) follow through.


I don't need to try anything. I've been DOING for 45 years, and I'm talking about a LOT of doing. I've tried shit that you don't even know exists yet.

You're missing the point if you're answering my last post. Whether you aim center ball and pivot your cue for english, or aim center ball and pivot your cue during the stroke so that it strikes the CB in the same place for either system, wouldn't both of them be backhand english? Forget trying to answer it....the answer is YES!

mnShooter
04-15-2005, 02:21 PM
I guess you know everything then. Good for you.

Jon
04-15-2005, 02:24 PM
I guess you know everything then. Good for you.
Yes he does.
Get used to it.

:D:D:D

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 02:25 PM
I guess you know everything then. Good for you.



I also know how to see the OB and CB when I'm lining up a shot from anywhere on the table. Do you? Don't lie now....we'll catch you red handed since it's right here in print. Last week you couldn't even do that, now you're ripping balls in like Corey Deuel.

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 02:28 PM
Yes he does.
Get used to it.

:D:D:D


Good boy Jon...I'm gonna have LS take reeeeel good care of you now. ;)

mnShooter
04-15-2005, 02:36 PM
I just came on this forum to talk pool and maybe learn a few things, not to get in a fight with anyone about who knows more or who is correct. I know my share but I've still got plenty to learn even after 10 years of playing. I didn't know it was a rhetorical question, so I answered it.

Jon
04-15-2005, 02:40 PM
"Has anyone tried this?"

"Ummm... just about everytime i hit a ball..."


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:D

Please tell LS to keep the nipple clamps at home...
The vacuum attachments are O.K. though...
:rolleyes:
:p
:D

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 02:41 PM
I just came on this forum to talk pool and maybe learn a few things, not to get in a fight with anyone about who knows more or who is correct.


Oooops.....the conductor must have called out the wrong stop. :D

Troy
04-15-2005, 02:52 PM
I tried to explain the terminology as I was taught it more years ago than I care to admit.
If you want to call two different approaches by the same name, have at it..

Troy
I don't need to try anything. I've been DOING for 45 years, and I'm talking about a LOT of doing. I've tried shit that you don't even know exists yet.

You're missing the point if you're answering my last post. Whether you aim center ball and pivot your cue for english, or aim center ball and pivot your cue during the stroke so that it strikes the CB in the same place for either system, wouldn't both of them be backhand english? Forget trying to answer it....the answer is YES!

drivermaker
04-15-2005, 03:01 PM
Drivermaker do you have anything worth while to say? Why don't you just go away? This forum would be much better without people like you and gremlin.


OK, I'll leave....I'm never coming back either....you hurt my feelings. :( And here I thought I was helping some people out and providing a good time.
Don't change your mind, it won't matter. I'm gone..........

Jon
04-15-2005, 03:05 PM
Yeah....
Sure....
See ya monday...
Or in the next few minutes or so....

Whichever comes first :D

Jon
04-15-2005, 03:07 PM
Oh, and if you hurt driver's feelings...
I would be careful starting my car, or opening my mail box for awhile if i were you :D:D:D
:p :p :p

predator
04-15-2005, 05:27 PM
I know that every time my follow through doesn't end up in a straight line, I usually miss. Backhand english works for some people and can be quite effective, but I must say to me it doesn't look very pretty. I'll stick to parallel english...looks so much better... :D

Troy
04-15-2005, 05:55 PM
"Looking Good" counts a lot for some people..... But pocketing balls counts much more.....

Troy
I know that every time my follow through doesn't end up in a straight line, I usually miss. Backhand english works for some people and can be quite effective, but I must say to me it doesn't look very pretty. I'll stick to parallel english...looks so much better... :D

vapoolplayer
04-15-2005, 06:08 PM
I know that every time my follow through doesn't end up in a straight line, I usually miss. Backhand english works for some people and can be quite effective, but I must say to me it doesn't look very pretty. I'll stick to parallel english...looks so much better... :D

sounds like you're overexaggerating the english.........

VAP

BlowFish
04-15-2005, 06:54 PM
That's your own fault. Don't tell her. Ha-ha.

Course don't tell her when you win either.

I refer that as my rathole money. Buried deep in my wallet.

If you win, she'll FRONT HAND (the front palm asking for you money to hand it over) you. You rob someone then you'll be robbed in return. :) :) :) :)

drivermaker
04-16-2005, 05:06 AM
sounds like you're overexaggerating the english.........

VAP


Sounds like he's using a Predator...(wonder what gave me the clue)?

vapoolplayer
04-16-2005, 06:01 AM
Sounds like he's using a Predator...(wonder what gave me the clue)?

way to go sherlock........ :D

VAP

LastTwo
04-16-2005, 06:22 AM
You get more squirt/deflection with a sideways (away from the cue ball) follow through.

Logic tells me the opposite. The more the cue diverts from the patch, the less the ball squirts. The more the cue stays on line, the more the ball squirts away.

drivermaker
04-16-2005, 06:26 AM
Logic tells me the opposite. The more the cue diverts from the patch, the less the ball squirts. The more the cue stays on line, the more the ball squirts away.


Watch out...he might tell you to leave and put you in the same category with me and Gremlin.

However, you are correct...good eye to catch it.

vapoolplayer
04-16-2005, 06:39 AM
Watch out...he might tell you to leave and put you in the same category with me and Gremlin.

However, you are correct...good eye to catch it.

its surprising how many people don't understand squirt/deflection.

i think you're right about some people being on the outside looking in :D

VAP

predator
04-16-2005, 07:38 AM
Sounds like he's using a Predator...(wonder what gave me the clue)?

LOL. Actually I've used parallel english right from the start with my old Cuetec graphite, then with a Buffalo, and now with a P2.

I registered to this board back when I was still using a Buffalo. If I had known then that Predators were such a controvertial subject on these pool boards, perhaps I would have chosen a different nickname, but oh well...

chefjeff
04-16-2005, 08:01 AM
Would the final outcome of the tip striking the ball in the same spot not be the same?

I'd think it would, if the cue could be consistently controlled that way.

Question for Drivermaker: Even though I think it would be the same, I've often used what I think is a swiping stroke with inside english on thin cuts where the OB is on the rail. Am I fooling myself thinking I'm adding a little more friction to the cueball by swiping at it vs. doing my setup with backhand english and stroking straight?

Thanks for your courteous reply,

Jeff Livingston

drivermaker
04-16-2005, 08:16 AM
I'd think it would, if the cue could be consistently controlled that way.

Question for Drivermaker: Even though I think it would be the same, I've often used what I think is a swiping stroke with inside english on thin cuts where the OB is on the rail. Am I fooling myself thinking I'm adding a little more friction to the cueball by swiping at it vs. doing my setup with backhand english and stroking straight?

Thanks for your courteous reply,

Jeff Livingston


Why would you make the assumption that I'd be courteous?? :p :D

I think you're fooling yourself. IMO, on real thin cuts with the OB on the rail, you want to hit RAIL FIRST with inside english softly enough so that it takes without rebounding too quickly. The most important thing to me is hitting the CB as accurately as you can to just miss the OB with the CB spinning. So basically whatever it takes to perform that consistently.

chefjeff
04-16-2005, 11:41 AM
Why would you make the assumption that I'd be courteous?? :p :D

I think you're fooling yourself. IMO, on real thin cuts with the OB on the rail, you want to hit RAIL FIRST with inside english softly enough so that it takes without rebounding too quickly. The most important thing to me is hitting the CB as accurately as you can to just miss the OB with the CB spinning. So basically whatever it takes to perform that consistently.

I understand what happens when the CB hits the rail/OB, but thanks for the explanation anyway---you scientific guy, you :p ...what I'm wondering is if my swiping at it during the stroke provides more friction/spin (squirt, too?)than the simpler way of just setting up for the side hit before squeezing the trigger.

Didn't you once say something about "tuck and roll".. is this anything like that?

Thank you for your courteous re-reply, :cool:

Jeff Livingston

Rickw
04-16-2005, 12:27 PM
Analysis Paralysis! Just hit the balls and make them. What happened to "feel" DM? You can use backhand english, forehand english, parralel english but you still have to make the balls. Whatever makes you feel confident with your stroke is what makes the balls imho. Don't shoot the shot, be the shot, hmmmmmmmm.

Rod
04-16-2005, 01:58 PM
I understand what happens when the CB hits the rail/OB, but thanks for the explanation anyway---you scientific guy, you :p ...what I'm wondering is if my swiping at it during the stroke provides more friction/spin (squirt, too?)than the simpler way of just setting up for the side hit before squeezing the trigger.

Didn't you once say something about "tuck and roll".. is this anything like that?

Thank you for your courteous re-reply, :cool:

Jeff Livingston

Very many years ago in the land of pool a side stroke was common to better players. Tuck and roll is another varaition. Enter rocket scientists == hence the term BHE. It's doubtful any of them could use a swiping stroke on the fly so they needed a piviot point. This pivot point enabled them to get a similar action without the side stroke. There you have it, similar but not quite the same.

More friction - doubtful, more spin -doubtful, more squirt - not hardly, less if any. After all that's why it was used in the first place. Old timers, like me knew that years ago.

Rod

drivermaker
04-16-2005, 02:29 PM
...what I'm wondering is if my swiping at it during the stroke provides more friction/spin (squirt, too?)than the simpler way of just setting up for the side hit before squeezing the trigger.

Didn't you once say something about "tuck and roll".. is this anything like that?

Jeff Livingston


I doubt that it's providing more or less of anything other than accuracy because I don't know how much you're swiping it. I guess the way to find out is get an elephant training ball or a Rempe and see where your chalk mark is when you do it both ways and make a comparison. The main thing is, if you set the shot up the same way and shoot it a dozen times by swiping and a dozen times the other way, which one gives you the highest % of pocketed balls. That's the only factor that matters. Knock dem balls in!

Tuck and roll isn't the same and your hand and wrist work differently in executing the shot than with backhand.

chefjeff
04-17-2005, 08:47 AM
Very many years ago in the land of pool a side stroke was common to better players. Tuck and roll is another varaition. Enter rocket scientists == hence the term BHE. It's doubtful any of them could use a swiping stroke on the fly so they needed a piviot point. This pivot point enabled them to get a similar action without the side stroke. There you have it, similar but not quite the same.

More friction - doubtful, more spin -doubtful, more squirt - not hardly, less if any. After all that's why it was used in the first place. Old timers, like me knew that years ago.

Rod

I figured less squirt, too. And I'm still thinking I'm getting more friction, but like the advice here, I've never really cared too much about it before but just shot the shot. But now I'm curious as to the physics of what I'm doing and keeping better control of it.

And for God's sake, don't tell Drivermaker that I'm still using my 314 Predator to do this. shhhhhhhh

Jeff Livingston

chefjeff
04-17-2005, 08:49 AM
I doubt that it's providing more or less of anything other than accuracy because I don't know how much you're swiping it. I guess the way to find out is get an elephant training ball or a Rempe and see where your chalk mark is when you do it both ways and make a comparison. The main thing is, if you set the shot up the same way and shoot it a dozen times by swiping and a dozen times the other way, which one gives you the highest % of pocketed balls. That's the only factor that matters. Knock dem balls in!

Tuck and roll isn't the same and your hand and wrist work differently in executing the shot than with backhand.

Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston

vapoolplayer
04-17-2005, 08:59 AM
Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston

get buddy hall's clock system video, i believe he explains and shows tuck and roll if i'm not mistaken.

VAP

drivermaker
04-17-2005, 09:17 AM
Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston


VAP is correct...it's on Buddy Hall's clock system tape. You can also ask Zim or Bob Jewett, they teach this all the time in their classes.

Tuck and roll isn't for everyone. You have to have a damn good stroke to begin with and be able to "feel" things instead of mechanically impose them. If you aren't a "feel" player and can run a lot of balls normally, this will probably hurt more than help.

I've elaborated on this to a great extent on other threads. You can tuck it under or roll it up. Try it yourself with the tip of your cue up to the CB but DON'T STRIKE the CB. Stop just short and observe where the tip ends up when you do it.

recoveryjones
04-17-2005, 09:22 AM
I was working on my english yesterday. Playing with the bridge pivot point. Essentially line up center ball and then pivot on your bridge hand to apply english. I realized something really cool. For slower shots I use a longer bridge ~10" and for faster shots I would use a shorter bridge ~6". I was making almost everything on a 9' Table with pretty tight pockets. I suggest trying it out.

It may have been a successful way of applying BACKHAND english for you,however,generally when I want to hit a faster,more powerful shot, I lengthen my bridge and not shorten it.Also when a want to hit a slow roller or slower shot, I shorten my bridge which in fact reduces power.

Generally speaking you have this bridge power thing backwards, however, if it works for you regarding your pivot point and backhand english delivery,more power to you.
:D RJ

chefjeff
04-17-2005, 09:25 AM
VAP is correct...it's on Buddy Hall's clock system tape. You can also ask Zim or Bob Jewett, they teach this all the time in their classes.

Tuck and roll isn't for everyone. You have to have a damn good stroke to begin with and be able to "feel" things instead of mechanically impose them. If you aren't a "feel" player and can run a lot of balls normally, this will probably hurt more than help.

I've elaborated on this to a great extent on other threads. You can tuck it under or roll it up. Try it yourself with the tip of your cue up to the CB but DON'T STRIKE the CB. Stop just short and observe where the tip ends up when you do it.

I'll play around with it. If I find Buddy's video, I'll buy it. Tuck is toward the body and roll is turning the hand away from the body...got that part.

Years ago, I had a player show me this at a bar, but he never really knew why to do it, just that it's done sometimes. I figured he was just complicating things unnecessarily, so I basically ignored his advice.

I'm still wondering WHY a player would do this.

Jeff Livingston

recoveryjones
04-17-2005, 10:00 AM
Care to elaborate on tuck n roll? Are you tucking the grip hand during the stroke so the tip rotates at contact? And if so, why?

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston

Buddy Hall lines up to cut in a shot with a center ball hit (can be various heights up and down the center of the cue ball such as tops ,middle or bottoms)and does his practice strokes.On the last stroke he either tucks or rolls depending if he wants to apply left or right hand english.

When he applies his english he glances across the cue ball rather than straight through the cue ball as in parralel english.His theory is that it cuts a way down on delflection.

When he tucks, he is swinging the cue towards his body on the final stroke, henceforth a tuck.When he rolls he swings the cue out from his body.Buddy is a very talented, co-ordinated man and his tuck and roll style takes some practice.

An easier way of doing the same thing is with backhand english. In backhand english, you initially do the same thing Buddy does.You line up to cut a ball in center ball(tops,middle or low) with no english.Once you feel you have lined up the cut shot properly, you then shift your backhand either to the left or the right depending if you want inside or outside english.When you are making this shift, it's imperitive that you keep your bridge hand locked and still.Once you've decided on (1/4,1/2,3/4 tip etc) the english you want to apply, you now stroke through that NEW line.Applying english this way will also have you glancing accross the cue ball,simuliar to Buddy's tuck and roll.Applying english in this matter also cuts back on deflection and it adjusts the aiming point for you, rather than you having to guess on how thick or thin to hit the object ball.

I'm finding that in my game I use all three applications of english, depending on the situation.I never set out to do tuck and roll purposley, however, my subconcious will sometimes apply it when it knows I've made the wrong descision as to get the shot where I want it to go.Some people might call this steering.

In my expermentation, I've also found out that(for example) a tip of high right english using parrelel english wont deliver the object ball to the same place as a tip of high right backhand english. While they both apply the high right english, ones a straight through the cue ball shot and the others a glancing accross the cue ball shot.The straight through and glancing acroos the cue ball definitly produces different end results

When I want to apply a ton of check sidings, I find parralel english will get the job done much more effectivley for ME.When I'm in a pressure situation and I want to make sure of the pot(and not have to guess on hitting the object ball thick or thin)I use backhand english, because it does the calculating automatically for me.For me personally, I find that backhand english is much more reliable, for medium to shorter range shots.

I would say to anyone experiment with both as it never hurts to add another weapon in your arsenal. RJ

ps. If you decide to use backhand english, go to these links to find out where your cues pivot point is and read up about pivot points.Your pivot point is your bridge length.

Read here to find out about your cues pivot point:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

read here about pivot points:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_about_pivotpoints.php

Go here for an explanation of what backhand english is. Scroll down to find that catergory:
http://www.greatpool.com/technique.htm

drivermaker
04-17-2005, 10:58 AM
I figured less squirt, too. And I'm still thinking I'm getting more friction, but like the advice here, I've never really cared too much about it before but just shot the shot. But now I'm curious as to the physics of what I'm doing and keeping better control of it.

And for God's sake, don't tell Drivermaker that I'm still using my 314 Predator to do this. shhhhhhhh

Jeff Livingston


Too late....somebody opened their big mouth and spilled the beans. Physics isn't going to help you control it. Don't even go there. Why do you always want to pollute your mind with worthless horseshit that's not going to help anything. DOING it and PRACTICING it will give you control.

You're actually fighting an uphill battle trying to use backhand with a Predator. (I ain't a shittin' either) It's too self correcting and you'd be better off with a regular shaft of some kind.

Snapshot9
04-17-2005, 01:13 PM
One piece of advice:

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line ...

think about it .... lol

drivermaker
04-17-2005, 03:12 PM
One piece of advice:

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line ...

think about it .... lol


OK...I thought about it... http://athena.cornell.edu/the_mission/flight_plan.html


Not only isn't a straight line always the shortest distance between two points, but it also might not be the quickest to your destination, even on Earth.

vapoolplayer
04-17-2005, 03:16 PM
One piece of advice:

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line ...

think about it .... lol

ok..........this makes absoulutely NO SENSE whatsoever on this conversation, unless i'm missing something.

in case i am missing something, please explain.

VAP

Rod
04-17-2005, 11:45 PM
ok..........this makes absoulutely NO SENSE whatsoever on this conversation, unless i'm missing something.

in case i am missing something, please explain.

VAP


VAP, I think what he is saying is a side stroke, swiping action, is not the shortest distance. Doesn't matter though, there are hundreds, maybe thousands that use it.

Rod

vapoolplayer
04-18-2005, 12:47 AM
VAP, I think what he is saying is a side stroke, swiping action, is not the shortest distance. Doesn't matter though, there are hundreds, maybe thousands that use it.

Rod

thats what i got from it that he meant, but like you said, that doesn't mean anything.

VAP

Gabber
04-18-2005, 03:04 AM
Buddy Hall lines up to cut in a shot with a center ball hit (can be various heights up and down the center of the cue ball such as tops ,middle or bottoms)and does his practice strokes.On the last stroke he either tucks or rolls depending if he wants to apply left or right hand english.

When he applies his english he glances across the cue ball rather than straight through the cue ball as in parralel english.His theory is that it cuts a way down on delflection.To my knowledge, there is no 'special' stroke that reduces QB deflection ie squirt.

When he tucks, he is swinging the cue towards his body on the final stroke, henceforth a tuck.When he rolls he swings the cue out from his body.Buddy is a very talented, co-ordinated man and his tuck and roll style takes some practice.

An easier way of doing the same thing is with backhand english. In backhand english, you initially do the same thing Buddy does.You line up to cut a ball in center ball(tops,middle or low) with no english.Once you feel you have lined up the cut shot properly, you then shift your backhand either to the left or the right depending if you want inside or outside english.When you are making this shift, it's imperitive that you keep your bridge hand locked and still.Once you've decided on (1/4,1/2,3/4 tip etc) the english you want to apply, you now stroke through that NEW line.Applying english this way will also have you glancing accross the cue ball,simuliar to Buddy's tuck and roll.Applying english in this matter also cuts back on deflection and it adjusts the aiming point for you, rather than you having to guess on how thick or thin to hit the object ball.

I'm finding that in my game I use all three applications of english, depending on the situation.I never set out to do tuck and roll purposley, however, my subconcious will sometimes apply it when it knows I've made the wrong descision as to get the shot where I want it to go.Some people might call this steering.

In my expermentation, I've also found out that(for example) a tip of high right english using parrelel english wont deliver the object ball to the same place as a tip of high right backhand english. While they both apply the high right english, ones a straight through the cue ball shot and the others a glancing accross the cue ball shot.The straight through and glancing acroos the cue ball definitly produces different end resultsOf course they will be different. The angle of cue approach is different!

When I want to apply a ton of check sidings, I find parralel english will get the job done much more effectivley for ME.When I'm in a pressure situation and I want to make sure of the pot(and not have to guess on hitting the object ball thick or thin)I use backhand english, because it does the calculating automatically for me.For me personally, I find that backhand english is much more reliable, for medium to shorter range shots.

I would say to anyone experiment with both as it never hurts to add another weapon in your arsenal. RJ

ps. If you decide to use backhand english, go to these links to find out where your cues pivot point is and read up about pivot points.Your pivot point is your bridge length.

Read here to find out about your cues pivot point:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

read here about pivot points:
https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_about_pivotpoints.php

Go here for an explanation of what backhand english is. Scroll down to find that catergory:
http://www.greatpool.com/technique.htm

BHE works because the angle of approach cancels out the squirt angle at a certain pivot point.

I would hate to get down on the shot worrying about my bridge point being exactly 12.78 inches from the tip in order to make a ball!

Gabber

chefjeff
04-18-2005, 06:13 AM
RecoveryJones, THANK YOU for your most excellent post.

Jeff Livingston

recoveryjones
04-18-2005, 08:49 PM
I was working on my english yesterday. Playing with the bridge pivot point. Essentially line up center ball and then pivot on your bridge hand to apply english. I realized something really cool. For slower shots I use a longer bridge ~10" and for faster shots I would use a shorter bridge ~6". I was making almost everything on a 9' Table with pretty tight pockets. I suggest trying it out.

I was open-minded enough to give your long bridge/short bridge,slow shot/fast shot back hand english theory a shot and was very pleased to learn for me (and my stroke/cue), that it works.Actually it works great!I only tried it out for five minutes or so (before a tournament) and made a real high percentage of my pots with both fast and slow shots and got some good english.My short bridge for my stroke(and cue) was more like 8" and long bridge 12".I think anyone who trys it will have to experiment to see what works best for them.

I will most definitley explore this theory some more in my next practice section. Thanks for the tip , RJ

recoveryjones
04-18-2005, 08:57 PM
RecoveryJones, THANK YOU for your most excellent post.

Jeff Livingston

Not a problem Jeff. What comes around goes around and some guys on this forum have taught me some awesome stuff.RJ