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View Full Version : My Draw Shot SUCKS.......Help & Suggestions appreciated.


Bruce S. de Lis
04-17-2005, 08:48 AM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

vapoolplayer
04-17-2005, 08:57 AM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

would have to see you stroking............you're stroke probably needs some serious tuning if you can't draw.

VAP

chefjeff
04-17-2005, 08:59 AM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

I just finished a couple of years of poor draw shots. It ws driving me nuts. My cure? I took a lesson from Scott Lee and simply refined my fundamentals just a little.

My problem was miscueing too often. During my last weekend long tourney, I set a goal to not miscue or knock the cueball off the table. I succeeded in both. :)

I didn't consciously change much, but simply stuck to fundamentals that Scott could see and correct (I couldn't see them myself, so I didn't know what to change...hint hint) and the problem went away.

Jeff Livingston

Bruce S. de Lis
04-17-2005, 09:29 AM
I use a Striped Ball for Practice, Check My Chalk Mark on the Ball, Plus see where Chalk appear to be Removed from my Q Tip. Problem is i am sure that I am not Stroking in a Straight line because I am dropping my Butt, thus Raising my Tip.....good Draw Shot is a powerful tool..... :(

RSB-Refugee
04-17-2005, 09:39 AM
I use a Striped Ball for Practice, Check My Chalk Mark on the Ball, Plus see where Chalk appear to be Removed from my Q Tip. Problem is i am sure that I am not Stroking in a Straight line because I am dropping my Butt, thus Raising my Tip.....good Draw Shot is a powerful tool..... :(
Check on your set-up, your forearm should be verticle when the cue tip is just at the cue ball. Next do not try to murder the cue ball smooth is better than brute force. If you try to really give it a hard hit there is a tendency to drop the elbow to soon. Exagerate the staying down on the shot as well as the follow through. If these don't help seek an instructor immediately, you don't want to give a flawed stroke, time to groove its self.

Tracy

pooltime
04-17-2005, 09:43 AM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

- Try keeping you cue as level as possible.
- Keep your back hand loose, even though it might be a power shot, you do not need a death grip on the cue - actually the tighter you grip the cue the more it will aid you in killing the cue ball.
- Do not poke at the cue ball - follow thru full.
- Even if you cannot keep your cue perfectly level, whatever angle you have it at, make sure you stroke thru on that plane.

Hope this helps a bit.

mnorwood
04-17-2005, 09:43 AM
Like the other guy said we would have to see you stroke to diagnose the problem. However, when your draw sucks here are some things to consider.

1. Is your grip too tight. Tight grips kill draw.
2. Is your arm relaxed. Tense arm muscles also destroy draw action.
3. Are you following through all the way? Follow through is much more important than hitting the ball hard.
4. Is the tip of your cue properly shaped?
5. Are you using a closed bridge? Closed bridges help control the cue.
6. Are you chalking up everytime? Simple thing that many people do not do.

Hope this helps,
Marcus

cubswin
04-17-2005, 09:58 AM
I have problems drawing when I raise my head, of course when I raise my head I have problems with everything *lol*. Caught myself doing it the other night playing $50 dollar sets, not the best time to be doing that (at least for a poor guy like me).

Other thing that hurts my draw shots is poking the ball instead of stroking. Know both of these are really basic things, but thought I'd mention them anyway.

Raising your head, at least for me, is something that can be hard to catch. Its like my body doesn't want to let me in on the secret.

JoeyInCali
04-17-2005, 10:20 AM
For me drawing is easier with a dime-shaped medium hard tip, loose grip and loose bridge and a cue with a heavy handle.

drivermaker
04-17-2005, 10:44 AM
For me drawing is easier with a dime-shaped medium hard tip, loose grip and loose bridge and a cue with a heavy handle.


You forgot to mention a Predator shaft. Anybody who reads the forum regularly knows that those who have switched to a Predator can immediately start drawing the ball 3 table lengths or more. It's magic........

JoeyInCali
04-17-2005, 10:47 AM
You forgot to mention a Predator shaft. Anybody who reads the forum regularly knows that those who have switched to a Predator can immediately start drawing the ball 3 table lengths or more. It's magic........
That goes without saying.
Wait until the new Smartshaft comes in the market.

Bruce S. de Lis
04-17-2005, 10:54 AM
Like the other guy said we would have to see you stroke to diagnose the problem. However, when your draw sucks here are some things to consider.

1. Is your grip too tight. Tight grips kill draw.
2. Is your arm relaxed. Tense arm muscles also destroy draw action.
3. Are you following through all the way? Follow through is much more important than hitting the ball hard.
4. Is the tip of your cue properly shaped?
5. Are you using a closed bridge? Closed bridges help control the cue.
6. Are you chalking up everytime? Simple thing that many people do not do.

Hope this helps,
Marcus



I am not using a Predator Shaft, and have no intention to changing to one.

To answer your questions in order:

1. Grip is kind of loose. :confused:

2. Arm is going to RELAX MORE. :confused:

3. Follow through needs to be worked upon. :confused:

4. Tips are in Near Perfect Condition. ;)

5. Using a Closed Bridge 10-4 ;)

6. Always CHALK overtime I shoot. ;)

Thanks for the pointers, it is appreciated. I am in a stage where I need to think everything out before I do it, each time i do it....

I hope someday for all this STUFF to Happen, like it was SECOND NATURE.... :rolleyes:

recoveryjones
04-17-2005, 10:55 AM
Lot's of good advice from previous posters.


Here's one from me:
Make sure you have a well rounded,shaped, well chalked tip.If your tip isn't groomed up to snuff,you will be at a disadvantage right from the start.

Don "The Preacher " Feeney(on his instructional video) suggests at address to move your backhand forward up the butt of the cue.On most shots , your arm should be hanging down at 90 degrees on the cue.For the draw shot he suggests moving it a few inches forward of 90.

Try a stroke or two like this and you will find that by pre-cocking your grip like this that your cue tip will be touching the bed of the table after your follow through (imperitive for a good draw shot) providing you haven't gripped the cue too tightly or dropped your elbow to much.Your stroke comes in at a pendulium and the sweet spot is only a few inches. By pre-cocking your grip you can't help but come through the cue ball low.Also when addressing the ball initially try to bring the tip right up close to the cue ball.I see some players address the cue ball two inches away, which is not reccomended by the instructors.

Another common tendency is to twist your wrist inward on the draw shot causing your elbow to fly out from your body.Keep your wrist straight.Don't think power, think smooth accurate hit and the rest will take care of itself.RJ

Billy_Bob
04-17-2005, 11:08 AM
Try a slower stroke and be sure to follow through 6 inches past the cue ball. Placing you hand a little further back on the butt of the cue with a light grip might help. [Sort of a light "flick" rather than a "kill the ball" shot.]

Chalk well before each draw shot, especially around the sides of the tip. Inspect your tip under the light after chalking. Look for any dark spots around the edges and apply more chalk or resurface tip if needed.

Experiment with a striped ball only in place of the cue ball and no object ball. See how far you can shoot it down table so that it is still rotating backwards.

If you *really* want to experiment, try draw shots with a soft tip, then a very very hard phenolic tip (some jump cues have phenolic tips).

Then try a flat tip and then a dime shaped tip. Then leather -vs- pig skin (Moori).

Watch the following high speed draw shot video and see how the roundness of the tip keeps the tip in contact with the ball, and why it is so important to chalk well around the sides of the tip. Also notice how the tip "indents" or "compresses" when it hits the ball...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-38.htm

32-n-d
04-17-2005, 11:27 AM
When I was trying to tune my stroke...I always reminded myself to "follow through". I stroke through the cb, chalked up and such but it wasn't until I felt how to perform a good, clean stoke that I knew what they were talking about all along.

Let me try to use more specific terms to help you better understand what I'm talking about:

When stroking through the cb, you almost have "accelerate" your cue. You want your tip to stay in contact with the cb until the end of your stroke. You'll find that it's not power that gives you more spin, its all in how much follow through you give it. I've seen people hit the cb with all their might trying to draw, only getting minimal results. Where I can hit it with not even half the power and draw over twice as far.

Just go off of all the great advice this forum has to offer, and get some table time for a little trial and error.

Hope this helps...good luck.

Billy_Bob
04-17-2005, 11:54 AM
...I've seen people hit the cb with all their might trying to draw, only getting minimal results. Where I can hit it with not even half the power and draw over twice as far....

Yes it is amazing how softly you can hit the ball and get quite a lot of draw. I don't know why this is? Maybe banging the heck out of the ball is doing something to mess up the draw?

Anyone know? Maybe the tip is not in contact with the ball as long or something? (Just guessing...)

drivermaker
04-17-2005, 12:06 PM
I am not using a Predator Shaft, and have no intention to changing to one.

To answer your questions in order:

1. Grip is kind of loose. :confused:

2. Arm is going to RELAX MORE. :confused:

3. Follow through needs to be worked upon. :confused:

4. Tips are in Near Perfect Condition. ;)

5. Using a Closed Bridge 10-4 ;)

6. Always CHALK overtime I shoot. ;)

Thanks for the pointers, it is appreciated. I am in a stage where I need to think everything out before I do it, each time i do it....

I hope someday for all this STUFF to Happen, like it was SECOND NATURE.... :rolleyes:


I think you were correct in your opening statement...if you're doing everything right which has been suggested, you just suck. (I know...you said you're draw shot sucked but you know how I like to paraphrase) :D

christopheradam
04-17-2005, 12:11 PM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:


Something I read or a video I watched recently may help you. I can't recall where I read it or what video but here is the summary of it.
If you think of a draw shot similair to a masse shot, a little elevation can help you get a little more action/spin on the cueball. But this can also caue you to put side spin on the cueball unintentionally. A level cue can help you to follow through and control the direction better(straight back). So since your problem seems to be direction, maybe your are elevating too much.

Snapshot9
04-17-2005, 12:51 PM
Many have good recomendations ...

Another one is:

Get down on a shot ... ready to shoot a draw shot

Have a friend put a dime on your arm 2 inches above your elbow.

Stroke the cue ball.

Shoot the shot.

If the dime drops off, you have a stroke problem, which can include:

a) aiming your draw shot downwards (butt higher than tip quite a bit)
b) Your hit stroke is different than your warm up strokes. Grabbing the
butt tightly after making contact or moving your whole arn on your hit
stroke (I call it the hully gully stroke - Many young players thinks it
looks cool, I just think it makes them look not too smart).

Think about what a good draw stroke is before you shoot. Long straight in
shots, especially when the cue is in the jaws of a pocket, used to give me trouble a lot until I started concentrating, thinking about stroke, if it felt right and good, thinking about stroking the shot straight and smooth, a smooth stroke, and then following through with those thoughts. Needless to say, I started making a much higher percentage of them than before, and yes, I practiced them a great deal until I felt comfortable shooting them. Thinking about a nice level stroke and being a smooth stroke can help a great deal with a variety of shots where the slightest twitch in your stroke will throw off the shot.

There are a variety of studies that have proven that people learn an average of 30% faster (or more) when they actually think about what they are doing when they actually do it rather than just go through the motions. When athletes start having problems, don't you think they go back to the drawing board and study every mechanic of what they are doing and what they might be doing wrong or to think about what they should think about to have success. For example, a baseball player that drops in batting average. Don't you think that a batting coach will tell them what to think about when they swing, to visualize a nice even swing, what to do with their arms and legs, and to follow through with it ...

To wrap up - most people can not draw good because their butt is up where their brain is instead of being down level with the table, and they don't deliver a nice smooth stroke .... lol

Bruce S. de Lis
04-17-2005, 04:54 PM
I think you were correct in your opening statement...if you're doing everything right which has been suggested, you just suck. (I know...you said you're draw shot sucked but you know how I like to paraphrase) :D


There has been a lot of good information, and pointers given me to help my DRAW SHOT.

I am 3 for 6 on what I feel I am doing 110% Correct, so I need to correct 50% of what I am doing.

Being a Slight Optimist on this SUBJECT, I feel if I can correct the 50% Problem portion of my DRAW SHOT, than I will be a BETTER DRAW SHOT PLAYER.

Tomorrow I go to the TEST TRACK to Work on the PROBLEMS. TEST TRACK BEING A 4.5 x 9.0 Pool Table.

Shall report back if I see, or do not see any improvement in my DRAW SHOT.

I am not expecting MIRACLES, or MAGIC to happen. Just some slight improvement, as I realize a Baby Must CRAWL, before RUNNING......



Thanks too ALL who shared a HELP TIP with me as that is part of what this Forum is about, HELPING OTHERS.... Again Thanks..... :D :cool: :D :cool:

Billy_Bob
04-17-2005, 05:20 PM
...Shall report back if I see, or do not see any improvement in my DRAW SHOT...

I got really disgusted with my draw shots about a year ago. So I spent about two months just working on draw shots, experimenting, etc. Then after that I practiced draw shots about once a week.

Now I will usually shoot a few draw shots on unfamiliar tables as part of my warm-up. (In addition to other warm-up shots.)

So I would say take your time, try different things. My goal was to be able to draw back the cue ball a specific distance (like 1 diamond, half a table, whatever) as needed during a tournament. My two months of concentrated experimenting went a long way toward reaching this goal.

I can't *always* draw back the ball where I want it. But I can certainly do this a lot more often than I could before. I practice with a row of balls across the table and the cue ball 1 diamond back, then try to get the cue ball to come back one diamond, then 2 diamonds, then 3, etc. Not easy, but easier after a few months of practice.

chefjeff
04-17-2005, 07:57 PM
A lot of posters have recommended following through on draws shots. I do what BillyBob said about shooting the tip toward a spot about 6 inches in front of the cueball.

But, Don McCoy told me that one of his thoughts about his draw shots is to NOT follow through. What gives? Does poking at the ball work as well, but we think it doesn't because we've heard that advice so often?

Another piece of advice I'm not too sure about is the "closed bridge" advice given here and by Byrne and others. On the video BillyBob linked to, the tip goes down right after hitting the cueball. Therefore, the pressure on the bridge is downward, therefore an open bridge would work just as well, perhaps better by allowing better sighting.

Thoughts?

Jeff Livingston

vapoolplayer
04-17-2005, 09:22 PM
A lot of posters have recommended following through on draws shots. I do what BillyBob said about shooting the tip toward a spot about 6 inches in front of the cueball.

But, Don McCoy told me that one of his thoughts about his draw shots is to NOT follow through. What gives? Does poking at the ball work as well, but we think it doesn't because we've heard that advice so often?

Another piece of advice I'm not too sure about is the "closed bridge" advice given here and by Byrne and others. On the video BillyBob linked to, the tip goes down right after hitting the cueball. Therefore, the pressure on the bridge is downward, therefore an open bridge would work just as well, perhaps better by allowing better sighting.

Thoughts?

Jeff Livingston

on the follow through:

it is a fact that follow through should not mattter, once the ball has left the tip, thats it, its gone.

what follow through does is keeps you from jerking during the actual stroke. if you tried to stop your tip exactly when the cue ball left it, you would start slowing your stroke down before it even hit the ball. this causes a jerk. not good. that is why you should follow through, because it is the only way to keep a fluid ACCELERATING stroke.

so yes and no, the follow through does effect the draw, and it doesn't. if that makes sense at all.

as far as the bride is concerned, it can be done either way, and you will see players do it either way.

again, just like the follow through, the closed bridge is used to keep you from doing something wrong during the stroke.

some people have a tendancy to raise up during the stroke, if you do this, then the open bridge will allow you to raise up too high. the closed bridge will help prevent this.

if your stroke is true and straight, the open bridge works excellent and gives you a more unobstructed view.

thanks

VAP

Billy_Bob
04-17-2005, 09:34 PM
...But, Don McCoy told me that one of his thoughts about his draw shots is to NOT follow through. What gives? Does poking at the ball work as well, but we think it doesn't because we've heard that advice so often?...

Well actually there is a shot called a "nip draw shot" where the cue ball is very close to the object ball and you don't want to follow through or it will be a double hit foul. So yes you can draw without a 6 inch follow through. And as you can see from the above video, the tip is not in contact with the cue ball very long with a long follow through.

But by telling players to follow through 6 inches, you can get someone who can't draw to be able to draw.

So far as using an open bridge instead of a closed bridge, I just tried an open bridge and was able to draw back just as far. But I did not feel I was as much in control of the cue ball as when I am using a closed bridge. Maybe just because I am used to using a closed bridge and it felt uncomfortable and it is just in my head? Anyway I feel that I can control the cue ball better when using a closed bridge. Like if I want more accuracy, a closed bridge seems to work better for me???

Rod
04-17-2005, 11:36 PM
When I was trying to tune my stroke...I always reminded myself to "follow through". I stroke through the cb, chalked up and such but it wasn't until I felt how to perform a good, clean stoke that I knew what they were talking about all along.

Let me try to use more specific terms to help you better understand what I'm talking about:

When stroking through the cb, you almost have "accelerate" your cue. You want your tip to stay in contact with the cb until the end of your stroke. You'll find that it's not power that gives you more spin, its all in how much follow through you give it. I've seen people hit the cb with all their might trying to draw, only getting minimal results. Where I can hit it with not even half the power and draw over twice as far.

Just go off of all the great advice this forum has to offer, and get some table time for a little trial and error.

Hope this helps...good luck.

It's all basic fundamentals. An elbow drop, tightening up on the grip as you strike the ball, and any other moves before the ball is struck. All this prevents you from striking the c/b where intended.

Actually many players don't know just how low you can hit the ball. For that matter, the same goes for top english. They are afraid because of miscues, which goes back to the stroke. It is a snow ball effect and the tip rarely has anything to do with it. Have an instructor tell you what's happening, it would be very easy to see by a trained eye.

Rod

JimS
04-18-2005, 03:46 AM
Stroke like every other shot. Relaxed. No big deal ..just hitting the cue ball below the center. Hold the cue VERY lightly VERY VERY VERY lightly. Don't grip it at all! Just let your fingers cradle it.

Shoot normally, not hard, just low on the cb.

Keep it simple and relaxed. It's the tension that's killing the cb and makeing you crazy.

You'll be amazed what you can do with a easy stroke and extremely light cradle. If I can do it you sure as hell can because I'm an old fart beginner :) VERYVERYVERYVERY light grip.

chefjeff
04-18-2005, 06:09 AM
on the follow through:

it is a fact that follow through should not mattter, once the ball has left the tip, thats it, its gone.

what follow through does is keeps you from jerking during the actual stroke. if you tried to stop your tip exactly when the cue ball left it, you would start slowing your stroke down before it even hit the ball. this causes a jerk. not good. that is why you should follow through, because it is the only way to keep a fluid ACCELERATING stroke.

so yes and no, the follow through does effect the draw, and it doesn't. if that makes sense at all.

as far as the bride is concerned, it can be done either way, and you will see players do it either way.

again, just like the follow through, the closed bridge is used to keep you from doing something wrong during the stroke.

some people have a tendancy to raise up during the stroke, if you do this, then the open bridge will allow you to raise up too high. the closed bridge will help prevent this.

if your stroke is true and straight, the open bridge works excellent and gives you a more unobstructed view.

thanks

VAP

Thanks for your reply.

You brought up another "proverb"...accelerate through the ball.

That's another one I have problems with. (I don't mean to pick on you personally, I'm just thinking outloud here) I'd rather NOT accelerate through the ball. And that's why I've positioned my grip so when the tip hits the cueball, my swing arc is just past bottom and therefore my speed is maxed and constant.

If I hit the cueball as my grip arm is going down, then I am probably accelerating; if it's going up, I'm probably decelerating. Which means I'm not able to control the exact speed at contact, something I don't like. If you imagine a bell curve, I want to hit the cueball at the top, mostly flat area for consistency. The swing arc looks kinda like an inversion of the curve, btw.

Sorry for getting off track from the original post, but I was thinking that the draw shot really requires exactness of hit and a few of these ideas being mentioned seem to me to make the problem worse, not better.

Bring back, bring back, bring back my bonnie to me, to me... :)

Jeff Livingston

Teacherman
04-18-2005, 06:20 AM
What will cause a cue ball to spin more?

A long follow through where the tip is actually on the ball for a longer period of time?

Or

A short follow through where the spin is applied and the tip is then "out of the way"?

ScottR
04-18-2005, 06:58 AM
What will cause a cue ball to spin more?

A long follow through where the tip is actually on the ball for a longer period of time?

Or

A short follow through where the spin is applied and the tip is then "out of the way"?
I'll take the bait . . . . a short "jab stroke" like billiard players use???
Scott

chefjeff
04-18-2005, 07:08 AM
What will cause a cue ball to spin more?

A long follow through where the tip is actually on the ball for a longer period of time?

Or

A short follow through where the spin is applied and the tip is then "out of the way"?

I disagree with your first assumption that the tip stays on the cueball a longer time with follow through than without follow through, so your question is moot. (see BillyBob's link to video.)

Jeff Livingston

Teacherman
04-18-2005, 07:14 AM
The point is the tip has to get off the ball.

Not usually a major worry. But, a stroke with a long follow through has to have some speed to it so the ball leaves the stick. I've seen long follow through strokes that are too slow and actually impede spin. The tip is on the ball too long. In other words, they are propelling the cue ball instead of causing it to spin.

So, I believe there is a speed and length of stroke relationship to get the amount of draw needed.

Just saying a long follow through won't necessarily get the right results

Just saying a short nip type follow through won't necessarily get the right result.

CaptainJR
04-18-2005, 07:23 AM
I had a big compliment this past Saturday night. I was playing a ring game with a couple other old timers. I was playing pretty good (up a little). Then I played a long draw shot. Object (7-ball) ball in the kitchen about 1/4 inch off the side rail. About 1 and 1/2 diamonds away from the corner. Cue ball on the other end of the table about 1 inch off the same rail and about 1 and 1/2 diamonds away from the opposite corner. 9-ball on the bottom rail. Made the 7 and drew back to the 2nd diamond for the semi easy cut on the 9 to the corner. When I walked over to get my break stick Bob said, "You have the best controlled long draw shot I've ever seen". Since I know Bob has been around pool for a long time. This was the best compliment I've ever had.

Anyway Bruce, there is my qualifying statement and I'm going to throw in a little here just in case this is the kind of shot your talking about. (Rather than cue ball 1 foot from the object ball and needing to draw back 6 inches.)

All the information I've seen here is great so I'll try not to repeat what others have said.

The above shot can be rattled and missed, and is rattle and missed rather regularly by a lot of players. It is because they hit it quite a bit harder than necessary thinking they need to, to get the draw they want. They use like a 'soft break' speed. I've seen it tried almost using 'hard break speed'. So how hard do you hit it? I'm going to call it 'break stroking speed'. You see players taking practice strokes when getting ready to break. Even when they are using a 'soft break', the actual hitting stoke is much harder than there practice stokes. Hope you can understand this. Has been difficult to write and describe. It is this 'break stroking speed' that should not be exceeded. On the above shot I was firm but not as hard as the 'break stroking speed' I'm talking about. Using this break stoking speed I can sit a ball deep in the corner pocket at the foot of the table, cue ball in the kitchen and draw back the length of the table. That would be the rare occasion when you need that much draw on a long shot, so generally I use much less speed than this. It is firm, but NOT hard.

What I'm trying to emphasize here is you just don't have to hit it as hard as you probably think you do, if you use the other good advice in the thread.

Secondly, I think generally players have the tip to low on long draw shots. When your hitting this hard, if you put the tip to low, your taking a chance on sending the cue ball airborne. So just incase your stoke isn't what you were hoping for....I use at most a half tip low, but try to stay at a quarter tip low. This allows you to get that controlled draw that just creeps back at you. Almost looks like you had hit a soft follow shot from the other direction. And it can creep a good distance. Just get it going and it can go a while on 860.

I said I'd try not to repeat what others have said, but I think I'll throw in my two key thoughts on this kind of shot. Since I can only think of one thing at a time, the two keys have to be at separate times. One in setup and one while hitting. In my setup I make absolutely sure that when my tip is close to the cue ball, my back arm forearm is straight up and down. In the hitting stroke I make sure to follow through completely.

Bruce S. de Lis
04-18-2005, 07:31 AM
Tis almost 0730, and I have an optimists Appointment at 0800. Now I have more information to DEAL WITH. Hopefully i will be on a Table by 1000 to try out all these TIPS. Thanks again.... ;)

lewdo26
04-18-2005, 07:31 AM
Yes it is amazing how softly you can hit the ball and get quite a lot of draw. I don't know why this is? Maybe banging the heck out of the ball is doing something to mess up the draw?

Anyone know? Maybe the tip is not in contact with the ball as long or something? (Just guessing...)
Depending on the distance of the shot, too much speed won't allow the backspin to take. The cueball stuns and won't draw much after contact. Happens mostly on slow cloth.

HittMan
04-18-2005, 07:43 AM
Go to the tracks (as you say) and practice. Set up an easy draw shot with plenty of room and try this experiment: Keep your cue level (this will require you to lower the height of your bridge) and follow-thru. Now I mean follow-thru, not bang, not chip, not hesitate, not limp. A level cue will not require you to overcome additional friction from driving the cueball into the cloth. Think of it as sliding the ball (which is exactly what it is). If this doesn't work then you will have to go back a little farther and examine your fundamentals. You must be still and watch (see) the interplay of the shot. If you are watching the cue contact the cueball and the cueball contact the object ball, you should be able to diagnose the problem yourself immediately. If you cannot see the interplay then this is the problem point, the lack of draw is only a symptom. You are likely killing your aimed cue to cueball placement by inadvertantly striking the cueball in the wrong place. This is likely due to the location of your backhand at contact. All you have to do is accellerate the bottom of the cueball more than the the top. If you hit the ball on the bottom half this will be accomplished...every time.

Kerry Impson
04-18-2005, 10:41 AM
The video of the cue tip hitting the cue ball was very interesting.....Can anyone post a link to a video that shows the player's grip hand while shooting power draw shots? I think that could be very informative as well.

Bruce S. de Lis
04-18-2005, 05:18 PM
Roman was not built in One DAY, neither is my DRAW SHOT, but I have seen some IMPROVEMENTS following todays Practice..... Again thanks too all for their Tips, Help, and Experiences.... ;) :p ;) :p

PoolBum
04-19-2005, 12:25 AM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

If I had to guess without seeing you shoot I would say you are probably right--you are aiming low on the cue ball but when you actually stroke the shot you're dropping in the back and the tip is coming up and not hitting as low.

My advice would be to make sure your grip arm and hand are very loose, make sure you stay down on the shot, and strive to stroke through the cue ball as smoothly as you can with a complete follow through. The stroke is all in the cue and the follow through--not any other part of your body which should be perfectly still and relaxed. If you keep practicing these things over and over your draw shot should improve very quickly.

lukeinva
04-19-2005, 01:08 AM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

You should learn how to draw straight back more than 2-1/2 diamonds that would help you alot!!! LOL!! :D

But serious Practice the shot over and over and over until you can do it 10 times in a row! Then switch to another shot practice that and then go back to the draw shot to make sure you have it if not keep practicing! Also make sure you hit the ball low! :D

F8it
04-19-2005, 06:51 AM
The key to effective draw is wrist snap and acceleration! You must learn to "snap" your wrist/cue tip through the lower half of the cue ball at increasing speed and at the right moment. All that stuff about follow through is kind of a misnomer when it comes to specific stroke or power shots. You can follow through whitey all night long and still not get adequate draw! I'm sure you can relate! Therefore wrist snap, acceleration, and timing is the secret.

Unless you are naturally big, strong, or have arms with enough mass to muscle-draw the cue ball, small - normal players must rely on wrist action. I've long had difficulty with draw and the mechanics of wrist snap. While the words seem self explanatory, no one properly defined the term until I read Johnny Holiday's book: The Encyclopedia of Pocket Billiards. From it I got a short definition of draw and the mechanics of the stroke. He calls it a "snap-back" stroke. What I understand from his explanation is as your wrist snaps forward into the base of the cue ball, you should quickly pull back or yank your hand back at the wrist. This gets you to stab quickly into and through the cue ball imparting a huge amount back spin (if desired). You'd think doing this would hinder the action of the stroke, but it forces you to ad extra speed into the ball much like a firing engine piston.

The Monk also used the words "snap-back" stroke - verbatim - in his popular book: Point The Way. In fact, he used many of Johnny Holiday's ideas and published them in Point The Way!!! I'm not bashing The Monk, but I didn't see a writing credit or bibliography with Johnny Holiday's name on it!!! What's up with that?!!! :mad:

I was still a little confused after reading Johnny's section on draw (what the heck is a snap-back stroke?!!!). However, after practicing what I read - at the pool hall - for 20 - 30 minutes I finally got it!!!

To describe more of the mechanics... visualize holding an 18" Bull Whip (I know there isn't such a thing!) in your hand like the butt of your cue. Now imagine "cracking" the Whip using only your wrist and you should get an idea of what wrist action truly is.

A much better more functional and fun example is to playfully snap a small wet terry towel at your girlfriend's/boyfriend's behind at the beach, etc., and you will get instant physical feedback!!! :p You'll get slapped by your mate but you will also grasp the concept and mechanics behind (pun intended) a good proper wrist snap, IMO!!! Lol!!! Oh, and I won't be responsible if you snap anybody with a whip, towel, etc.l!!! Just do it at the air underhanded and you'll be fine.

You can still get adequate action without this "back" part of the snap stroke. I think the idea of "back" serves as both a mental and physical cue and aids you getting extra wrist action into that cue ball. For the first time in over a decade I finally know what a wrist snap is!!! Now when I shoot 5'+ draw shots the cue ball contacts the object ball, pauses for a split second (fairly new simonis 860, red circle cue ball) and zips back with amazing speed!!! I've never intentionally been able to do that, ever!!! The action is incredible and I get the same results on worn, dirtly, old cloth! Of course, since timing is also essential you have to be pretty warmed up to do it right. At least in the beginning. No, I don't use a predator shaft either! That'd be akin to cheating!!! :D

The next thing you have to practice is speed control so you don't run over run your mark! The cue ball really likes to run back quickly with this type of stroke, and you have to gauge the exact amount of wrist action to use.

Sorry for the long winded reply!! It's the best I could do! Hope this helped! "Stick" with it and I'm sure you will get the hang of it eventually. It took me over 10 years!!! :( Remember to practice hard, but keep things in perspective and have fun!!! Few of us can draw like Mike Massey, even with proper technique!!!!

Sincerely,

F8it

vapoolplayer
04-19-2005, 07:22 AM
The key to effective draw is wrist snap and acceleration! You must learn to "snap" your wrist/cue tip through the lower half of the cue ball at increasing speed and at the right moment.

holy shit...........this has to be the WORST advice i've ever seen..........


WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG


yes, there is shot called a "snap draw" but this is NOT NOT NOT NOT the ONLY way to draw the cue ball.

VAP

vapoolplayer
04-19-2005, 07:35 AM
just to go into further detail...........

you can draw the ball by:

stroking directly through the ball..............NO, it does NOT matter how big you are at all. I'm 6ft 170, and i can draw the ball a table length or more(depending on the equipment) without snaping my wrist.

snapping the wrist: this is what is known as a "snap draw". this is used when the object ball is at a slight angle and you wish to draw the ball almost straight back. the snap gives a little extra "umph" to the ball and make is take a more direct path backwards, it still tries to follow the tangent line, but not as much.

stroke-slip method...........also known as "spearing" the cue. its a less well known and less used method. it is also considered and advanced technique, much harder to control. as you are stroking, you actually let go of the cue for a spit second. this lets you build up more acceleration before contact.
example, your had is in the middle of the wrap, after the stroke, your hand is at the back of the wrap or on the butt of the cue.

stroke-slip&snap method: the last two combined, although i've never seen any reason to use this method, as the above mentioned 3 work fine.

then you can go into things like a "nip draw" which is more of a poke shot, but has its purposes.

i will repeat:

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A STRONG PERSON TO GET GOOD DRAW WITHOUT SNAPPING THE WRIST.

thanks

VAP

FLICKit
04-19-2005, 01:32 PM
holy shit...........this has to be the WORST advice i've ever seen..........

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

yes, there is shot called a "snap draw" but this is NOT NOT NOT NOT the ONLY way to draw the cue ball.

VAP

You both are overstating the situation.

The wrist snap will generate maximum draw. Key word, maximum.
NOTE: maximum draw is rarely required.

So, you are right to refer to other forms of draw.

just to go into further detail...........

you can draw the ball by:

stroking directly through the ball..............NO, it does NOT matter how big you are at all. I'm 6ft 170, and i can draw the ball a table length or more(depending on the equipment) without snaping my wrist.

snapping the wrist: this is what is known as a "snap draw". this is used when the object ball is at a slight angle and you wish to draw the ball almost straight back. the snap gives a little extra "umph" to the ball and make is take a more direct path backwards, it still tries to follow the tangent line, but not as much.

This part actually proves the point. One of the major reasons that the "snap draw" gets that little extra "umph" and takes a more direct path back, is because it generates more spin. Thus, if you can deliver a cue ball with more backspin, and less force at impact with object ball, then you will get draw in a tighter angle, resulting in a more direct path backwards.

This "snap draw" method is definitely a more advanced technique, which is more difficult for many to master, especially since it has more moving parts (wrist action) and relies on more precise timing. But, putting it all together successfully will produce an amazing feel & control.


stroke-slip method...........also known as "spearing" the cue. its a less well known and less used method. it is also considered and advanced technique, much harder to control. as you are stroking, you actually let go of the cue for a spit second. this lets you build up more acceleration before contact.
example, your had is in the middle of the wrap, after the stroke, your hand is at the back of the wrap or on the butt of the cue.

Letting go of the cue will never build up more acceleration... But, what you may be referring to is that letting go of the cue will eliminate the chances of your arm and muscles slowing down the cue as your arm prepares to come to a stop at the end of your stroke. This motion causes many players to unknowingly produce a decceleration effect in their stroke.

This would be the most common form of deceleration that would prevent a player from getting effective draw (especially while learning).


stroke-slip&snap method: the last two combined, although i've never seen any reason to use this method, as the above mentioned 3 work fine.

then you can go into things like a "nip draw" which is more of a poke shot, but has its purposes.

Agreed... the "nip draw" definitely has its purpose...



i will repeat:

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A STRONG PERSON TO GET GOOD DRAW WITHOUT SNAPPING THE WRIST.

thanks

VAP

The ultimate point is that there are a few methods that can be used to generate draw. As you've pointed out, each method can be quite different, and some can even utilize opposite techniques. For example, the power draw method relies on a power stroke with follow through. While the nip draw, relies on a softer nip, and virtually no follow through. Yet, each will give draw, and each has its advantages in certain situations.

Thus, some of the arguments in this thread about which techniques work for generating draw are due to people using different types of draw shots.


The main thing to know about draw is that it is all about generating backspin in a manner that overcomes the normal friction of the felt.

Hitting the cue ball hard with the power stroke can generate draw even with a half a tip below center english or more. The power stroke will send the cue ball further down the tangent line before the spin will be able to take effect.

In order to generate draw with a softer stroke will require hitting the cue ball further below center (i.e. 1 and 1/2 tips or even more).

Here is another, lesser known way to generate draw or follow. In this method, you'd do the opposite - start with the tip above the center of the cue ball in order to generate draw. In order to achieve draw, you'd have to move your tip downward during the point of contact. The thing that is most noteworthy about this method is that you can also generate follow by having your cue tip start below center on the cue ball and move upwards during the point of contact.

This movement during contact, is one subtle reason why some people struggle when trying to learn draw. They make every effort to start with the cue tip below center, but since hitting so low is foreign and awkward to them, they inadvertently move the cue tip slightly upwards during contact - this is especially true as they try to avoid contacting the felt due to fear of ripping it. This serves to reduce or eliminate the draw that they should've otherwise encountered by hitting below center of the cue ball.

vapoolplayer
04-19-2005, 03:21 PM
So, you are right to refer to other forms of draw.

I]

the reason i overstated so much is that he said that the "only" way for a small person to draw was to use a snap which is wrong.

there are many different ways as we both have stated............the hard part is learning them all, and knowing when to apply them, as only knowing how to shoot a shot one way is a very quick way to go broke.

VAP

DoomCue
04-19-2005, 04:00 PM
**SNIP**
Here is another, lesser known way to generate draw or follow. In this method, you'd do the opposite - start with the tip above the center of the cue ball in order to generate draw. In order to achieve draw, you'd have to move your tip downward during the point of contact. The thing that is most noteworthy about this method is that you can also generate follow by having your cue tip start below center on the cue ball and move upwards during the point of contact.
**SNIP**

I've heard there's a player who plays force follow by playing bottom on the CB. Filipinos even have a name for the shot. Personally, I won't believe it til I see it. I've seen plenty of players who address the CB at bottom dead center, then use backhand english to apply spin at contact (Bustamante, for example). It can look like they're getting all those different rotations by hitting the bottom of the CB, but closer inspection reveals they're hitting the usual points on the CB to generate spin. I know a drag draw shot is an example of a follow shot played on the bottom of the CB, but that just uses the cloth's friction to slow the rotational velocity down to a point where natural forward roll takes over (and it's usually a softly played shot). Force follow is a different beast altogether. I just can't see being able to generate that much spin by trying to apply an upward component to the stroke. It seems (to me) like a lot of energy would be wasted just in the effort to have the tip rise at contact.

BTW, ignore this post if you're talking about a jacked up draw shot or a trick shot where the CB is placed on a chalk cube on the rail and hit from below by a kneeling shooter.

-djb

Rackin_Zack
04-19-2005, 04:08 PM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

It's a pretty easy two step process.

1. Learn to hit where your aiming on the cueball.
2. Aim at the bottom of the cueball...lol.

vapoolplayer
04-19-2005, 04:15 PM
Personally, I won't believe it til I see it. -djb

i don't know about force follow when hitting low on the cue, but i personally do raise the cue up on certain shots to ensure i get plenty of forward motion. i dunno how it works, but it does.

kinda like hal's stuff, i dunno why it works, i just know it does and i use it.

could you provide a link to something talking about the shot you are talking about? i'd like to explore it further.

thanks

VAP

telkwa
04-19-2005, 04:47 PM
my draw is much more consistent with an open bridge. i draw the length i want with more success, and it is much easier for me to get a lot of draw with an open bridge. go figure...

LastTwo
04-20-2005, 05:16 AM
You both are overstating the situation.

The wrist snap will generate maximum draw. Key word, maximum.
NOTE: maximum draw is rarely required.


You don't need to snap your wrist to get 'maximum' draw. Some people do, some people don't. This doesn't apply to everyone.

chefjeff
04-20-2005, 06:17 AM
my draw is much more consistent with an open bridge. i draw the length i want with more success, and it is much easier for me to get a lot of draw with an open bridge. go figure...

I did "figure" it on another post here on this thread. I've had the same experience.

And since someone brought up follow, I use a closed bridge on some follow shots (the force on the cue is up) so I can better control the cue's movement through the cueball.

Great minds think alike...and so do we. :D

Jeff Livingston

drivermaker
04-20-2005, 06:37 AM
I've heard there's a player who plays force follow by playing bottom on the CB. Filipinos even have a name for the shot. Personally, I won't believe it til I see it. I've seen plenty of players who address the CB at bottom dead center, then use backhand english to apply spin at contact (Bustamante, for example).
-djb


Yep...it's a great way to get a lot of draw with or without a lot of effort. You actually need to have your tip ON the table raking across the cloth on your practice backstrokes and then hit up on it in the actual stroke and the CB will zing back with ease. I've never analyzed whether the elbow is dropping or any of that other stuff or what happens but you're striking the CB very low, obviously, you just have to practice it to where you don't miscue but it definitely works. Try it and give some practice to it, you'll be surprised.

chefjeff
04-20-2005, 06:47 AM
Yep...it's a great way to get a lot of draw with or without a lot of effort. You actually need to have your tip ON the table raking across the cloth on your practice backstrokes and then hit up on it in the actual stroke and the CB will zing back with ease. I've never analyzed whether the elbow is dropping or any of that other stuff or what happens but you're striking the CB very low, obviously, you just have to practice it to where you don't miscue but it definitely works. Try it and give some practice to it, you'll be surprised.

Interesting.

I've seen posted here and Scott Lee told me this, too, that everytime I miscue on a draw shot that I'm hitting the cloth first.

Tain't so, McGee. I was NEVER hitting the cloth first and yet I miscueing. And examination of my tip proved it.

But that's the past... :cool:

Jeff Livingston

drivermaker
04-20-2005, 08:21 AM
Interesting.

I've seen posted here and Scott Lee told me this, too, that everytime I miscue on a draw shot that I'm hitting the cloth first.
Jeff Livingston


And if anyone is misinterpreting by thinking that the tip touches the cloth at impact or post impact on this shot, t'ain't so McGee again. You have your tip on the cloth when setting up to the shot to ENSURE that you're going to strike the CB in about the lowest spot possible, but as stated by DC, you're altering you're stroke and angle of attack from that starting point just as the Phillipinos do when they strike the CB all over and at any part of the face.

Rickw
04-20-2005, 08:45 AM
I have a pretty good draw stroke and I can tell you that you have to hit the cb low and follow through but that's not all there is to drawing the cb. When I draw the ball, there's a feeling I get that I can't describe to you that takes over and when that feeling is there, I can draw that ball like it's on a string. The only way for you to get that feeling is to practice, play, and practice and play some more. I've been playing seriously for 21 years and I didn't get that feeling overnight.

Billy_Bob
04-20-2005, 09:08 AM
The key to effective draw is wrist snap and acceleration!...

Thanks for that detailed explanation. I have experimented with wrist snap and know I can get more draw when doing so, but all I heard in the past about this was "snap your wrist".

So I don't really know how to do this. Now that I have more information about this technique, maybe I'll be able to do it properly and more consistently.

Every once and a while I hear a little "gem" about pool playing. This is one of them! Thanks again.

DoomCue
04-20-2005, 09:47 AM
Yep...it's a great way to get a lot of draw with or without a lot of effort. You actually need to have your tip ON the table raking across the cloth on your practice backstrokes and then hit up on it in the actual stroke and the CB will zing back with ease. I've never analyzed whether the elbow is dropping or any of that other stuff or what happens but you're striking the CB very low, obviously, you just have to practice it to where you don't miscue but it definitely works. Try it and give some practice to it, you'll be surprised.
Actually, I'm not talking about backhand english. Supposedly, there's a player who contacts the bottom of the cue ball to play follow (partially described in a post by FLIckit). BHE is a fairly well-known technique, one which I suspect is being used by the player who supposedly hits bottom and gets top. I've heard from a few sources, though, that they're sure he's hitting the bottom of the cue ball, but brushing up at contact to result in forward spin. Like I said, I won't believe it til I see it.

-djb

drivermaker
04-20-2005, 09:56 AM
Actually, I'm not talking about backhand english. Supposedly, there's a player who contacts the bottom of the cue ball to play follow (partially described in a post by FLIckit). BHE is a fairly well-known technique, one which I suspect is being used by the player who supposedly hits bottom and gets top. I've heard from a few sources, though, that they're sure he's hitting the bottom of the cue ball, but brushing up at contact to result in forward spin. Like I said, I won't believe it til I see it.

-djb


OK...gotcha...he must have some pretty nice dings in his cue from hitting the rail then. Or, "the hand is quicker than the eye" and he's misdirecting attention like a magician as he squeezes his hand together quickly to raise his bridge height right in the middle of his stroke.

FLICKit
04-20-2005, 01:17 PM
Actually, I'm not talking about backhand english. Supposedly, there's a player who contacts the bottom of the cue ball to play follow (partially described in a post by FLIckit). BHE is a fairly well-known technique, one which I suspect is being used by the player who supposedly hits bottom and gets top. I've heard from a few sources, though, that they're sure he's hitting the bottom of the cue ball, but brushing up at contact to result in forward spin. Like I said, I won't believe it til I see it.

-djb

"Supposedly, there's a player" ??? I never referenced any specific player in the previous post with regards to any of the methods used to generate draw.

Just simply stated that backspin can also be generated by moving the tip downwards while contacting the cue ball (or vice versa for top spin). This can be done with a level cue, and no special tricks. It's actually much simpler than it may sound.

People put spins on the cue ball at the point of contact, all the time. Many cases it's unintentional and unknowingly.

Note: don't mis-interpret the earlier message to mean massive draw. Doing that downward movement alone, you'd probably be hard pressed to even get the ball to move 1 diamond.

The idea was just consistent with the main point, which was that draw is all about generating backspin.

Moving the tip downward while contacting the cue ball can definitely be utilized to generate backspin (no matter how small or large). The cue tip does have a frictional component with the cue ball, which can be utilized to generate a level of spin.

If you really want to see it, just try it. Keep it simple at first. Have the object ball within 6 inches of the cue ball. Start with a level cue and address the cue at the center, then move downwards during contact. Don't be surprised if you miscue the first few times you try it. Don't give up right away. Eventually you'll get the feel for it.

After you learn the feel, then you can experiment and increase the difficulty to test your limits.

DoomCue
04-20-2005, 01:23 PM
"Supposedly, there's a player" ??? I never referenced any specific player in the previous post with regards to any of the methods used to generate draw.

Just simply stated that backspin can also be generated by moving the tip downwards while contacting the cue ball (or vice versa for top spin). This can be done with a level cue, and no special tricks. It's actually much simpler than it may sound.

People put spins on the cue ball at the point of contact, all the time. Many cases it's unintentional and unknowingly.

Note: don't mis-interpret the earlier message to mean massive draw. Doing that downward movement alone, you'd probably be hard pressed to even get the ball to move 1 diamond.

The idea was just consistent with the main point, which was that draw is all about generating backspin.

Moving the tip downward while contacting the cue ball can definitely be utilized to generate backspin (no matter how small or large). The cue tip does have a frictional component with the cue ball, which can be utilized to generate a level of spin.

If you really want to see it, just try it. Keep it simple at first. Have the object ball within 6 inches of the cue ball. Start with a level cue and address the cue at the center, then move downwards during contact. Don't be surprised if you miscue the first few times you try it. Don't give up right away. Eventually you'll get the feel for it.

After you learn the feel, then you can experiment and increase the difficulty to test your limits.
Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't referencing you when I said I heard about a player who hits force follow by hitting the bottom of the CB. That's something I've heard from several Filipino players. Your post mentioning a technique similar to that particular player's just sparked my recollection.

-djb

TATE
04-20-2005, 01:38 PM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

Practice on straight in shots, putting the cueball only about 12" from the object ball. Hit two tips low and very smoothly, keeping your shoulders and head perfectly still throughout the stroke, right on through the cueball. Suddenly your problems will be over.

FLICKit
04-20-2005, 01:40 PM
Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't referencing you when I said I heard about a player who hits force follow by hitting the bottom of the CB. That's something I've heard from several Filipino players. Your post mentioning a technique similar to that particular player's just sparked my recollection.

-djb

No prob.... It's all good.

Did you happen to hear also how much movement that player gets by generating spin that way?

F8it
04-21-2005, 05:09 PM
Thanks for that detailed explanation. I have experimented with wrist snap and know I can get more draw when doing so, but all I heard in the past about this was "snap your wrist".

So I don't really know how to do this. Now that I have more information about this technique, maybe I'll be able to do it properly and more consistently.

Every once and a while I hear a little "gem" about pool playing. This is one of them! Thanks again.

Thank you Billy_Bob!!! :) I was really surprised when VAPOOL went off on me like that! I never said only short - normal players "had" to use this technique and that you "had" to be a larger person to execute a good draw shot!!! :mad: My emphasis was really on using wrist action to make your job simpler, although it's an advanced technique and requires perfect timing. There are myriads of methods to drawing the cue ball and I never intended to infer a "snap-back" stroke was the only way! Jeez!!!

In my post I did fail to mention this was for longer distance shots in my case, but then again wrist shots can be used on any shot on the table! Read Mosconi's books, Crane, Lassiter and they all mention (sadly vaguely and without further explanation) using wrist action all the time. Yes, a snap stroke can ad maximum spin to the cue ball on draw and follow, but you can still snap the wrist forward and not impart maximum spin to get a desired result. An example is a short stop shot of 12" - 12.50". You can still lightly snap/break the wrist forward and excecute a perfect stop shot! Try it and see! It works great on long distance stop shots too!!! You can do this soft or firm! Soft is better though!!!

The most frustrating problem I had was - like you - not knowing the mechanics of wrist snap. It's like telling a beginning player to just follow-through or just snap your....! They have no idea what it means unless you break it down and explain it in great detail. I'm really surprised no one has tried to explain wrist snap the same way!!! I wish "they" broke techniques down like the experts do in pro golf!!! Most of the secrets of that game are in the textbook!!!! Maybe Pool instructors do, but I haven't seen an article or a "classic" pool book that does. "Come, Let Us To Billiards Away" does extensively, and Johnny Holiday's book has a good explanation too but they - unfortunately - aren't considered classics.

Some of the best draw shots I saw were by players who use a simple snap of the wrist. Reyes seems to just let his wrist break naturally forward (he even drops his elbow for a full follow through to impart insane action), but from what he told me he uses a damn heavy cue (over 21 ounces). He isn't a big strong guy but he's been swinging a cue since he was 4 or 5 years old!!! His arm strength has developed to point where he can play for days and his arm won't tire much! Try to arm wrestle a guy who's been in an old wheel chair for 40 years and you'll see my point!!! The cue is really a part of Effren. I think he has deceiving arm strength, but utilizies every technique at his disposal including but not limited to wrist snap! He can do it both ways and more!!! His technique is a wrist snap while throwing the cue stick at the ball. His does have a weaker break but that's an entire body and arm timing type of deal.

Large players IMO can have a distinct advantage in they can force draw a cue ball back without problem. I'm not physics major but the potential energy and mass they have in their body/arm size overcomes the weight of the cue and cue ball. Therefore it's easier for them to draw from any distance. Of course they must have good cueing technique. Mike Massey quickly comes to mind!!!

Think about all the baseball greats like Hank Aaron (wrists) and Barry Bonds (brute arm/body strength) and how their technique varies but with the nearly same results.

Lastly, the break shot in 9-ball is like what I've been talking about in regard to size vs. cue tip acceleration. Some prefer a heavy break cue and others prefer a lighter cue. The common demonimator is tip speed. If you are 5' tall using a 22 ounce cue - unless you have natural power or been playing since you were a tot - getting that "club head speed" is going to be pretty tough. A larger guy can stroke a 22 ouncer like it's a tooth pick!

I'm not an expert but I know what's worked for me and as the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." I've practiced failed, grew frustrated, gave up, read, and then thought and practiced hard again with the draw shot for years and years!!! Now I can draw whitey back quite well with zip and - pretty much - at will!!!

I hope this clears some things up and I don't get murdered again for expressing my opinons!!! Keep practicing and please let me know if I've helped or not. I'd be very interested if the Bull Whip/Terry towel example helped. It really did for me!!! Thanks again! Keep Dabbin' it!!!

Sincerely,

F8it

vapoolplayer
04-21-2005, 05:18 PM
The key to effective draw is wrist snap and acceleration!
Unless you are naturally big, strong, or have arms with enough mass to muscle-draw the cue ball, small - normal players must rely on wrist action. F8it

i wasn't going off, it was just honestly bad advice, at least the way you explained it.

this is what you said, you basically said that normal players MUST (i repeat MUST) rely on wrist action.........which is as far from true as possible.

the wrist snap is an ENTIRELY different shot, that has its own purpose.

if the only way you get adequate draw is by snapping your wrist, there is something very wrong with your stroke.

i don't intend this to sound mean, or like i'm going off, just merely correcting some bad advice.

i've seen people give (and been victim to) this exact advice, and it will hender your game if you don't learn how to correctly draw without stroking the ball.

thanks

VAP

F8it
04-21-2005, 06:27 PM
i wasn't going off, it was just honestly bad advice, at least the way you explained it.

this is what you said, you basically said that normal players MUST (i repeat MUST) rely on wrist action.........which is as far from true as possible.

the wrist snap is an ENTIRELY different shot, that has its own purpose.

if the only way you get adequate draw is by snapping your wrist, there is something very wrong with your stroke.

i don't intend this to sound mean, or like i'm going off, just merely correcting some bad advice.

i've seen people give (and been victim to) this exact advice, and it will hender your game if you don't learn how to correctly draw without stroking the ball.

thanks

VAP

Well.. I think you were particularly brutal but it's o.k.. I did overstate the "must" when relying on a snap stroke, but it's far from being "incorrect" technique!!! It's an advanced technique but a valid one nonetheless! All the great players employ it so why not everyone else? How can my advice be all that bad if it's something many professional players execute all the time?!!! Heck, have you ever seen Mosconi shoot a draw shot?!!! He sure as hell snapped his wrist!!!

Also, if you've ever seen power draw shots in almost every case wrist snap is involved. Not in all cases but in a lot of them you do!!! Wrist snap, a long smooth follow through stroke, and a person's (arm) mass all achieves the same result: tip accelerating through the cue ball. You said yourself you can draw the cue ball the length of the table or more. The action on the cue ball is the same but yet you did it differently using your natural power/mass to add that maximum spin. I'm not necessarily talking about brute force here, but the inherent inertia you have to overcome the weight of the cue stick and cue ball and get your tip to run through (figuratively speaking) whitey. You draw back smoothly but you're still accelerating the tip through the cueball! You can obviously do the same thing using only wrist action. There's more than one way to skin a cat!

To answer your inference I have a faulty stroke, no I don't have a problem drawing balls without the wrist, and I don't use it exclusively. It's just a helluva lot easier when I do! Perhaps I did overstate a need to rely on this technique and should've done a better job. That being said I don't think my "advice" was bad. "Snap-back" whatever can and - I think - "must" be mastered. I've always been able to draw but never as much without wrist action. Try getting the cue ball to zip back on a nip draw using a smooth stroke and follow through. Yes, can draw it back but snapping it back works too; maybe even better for others.

Bottom line: It's a valid technique and has many, many proponents. I never could do it or believed in it for longest time, but once I learned how I know it's an advantage to "have" for me!

By the way, how do you define "stroking the ball?" Isn't a wrist shot considered a stroke shot? Not trying to be obnoxious but I'm a little confused what you mean?

Thanks for the reply.

F8it

Bruce S. de Lis
04-21-2005, 07:11 PM
After 4 Days, and about 4-6 Hour of Practice, after following Tips, Suggestions, and some Encouragement. I see MAJOR Improvement in my Draw SHOT.

Again

Thanks to all who contributed to this THREAD.

Signing Off this Thread :D

vapoolplayer
04-22-2005, 01:36 AM
Well.. I think you were particularly brutal but it's o.k.. I did overstate the "must" when relying on a snap stroke, but it's far from being "incorrect" technique!!! It's an advanced technique but a valid one nonetheless! All the great players employ it so why not everyone else? How can my advice be all that bad if it's something many professional players execute all the time?!!! Heck, have you ever seen Mosconi shoot a draw shot?!!! He sure as hell snapped his wrist!!!

Also, if you've ever seen power draw shots in almost every case wrist snap is involved. Not in all cases but in a lot of them you do!!! Wrist snap, a long smooth follow through stroke, and a person's (arm) mass all achieves the same result: tip accelerating through the cue ball. You said yourself you can draw the cue ball the length of the table or more. The action on the cue ball is the same but yet you did it differently using your natural power/mass to add that maximum spin. I'm not necessarily talking about brute force here, but the inherent inertia you have to overcome the weight of the cue stick and cue ball and get your tip to run through (figuratively speaking) whitey. You draw back smoothly but you're still accelerating the tip through the cueball! You can obviously do the same thing using only wrist action. There's more than one way to skin a cat!

To answer your inference I have a faulty stroke, no I don't have a problem drawing balls without the wrist, and I don't use it exclusively. It's just a helluva lot easier when I do! Perhaps I did overstate a need to rely on this technique and should've done a better job. That being said I don't think my "advice" was bad. "Snap-back" whatever can and - I think - "must" be mastered. I've always been able to draw but never as much without wrist action. Try getting the cue ball to zip back on a nip draw using a smooth stroke and follow through. Yes, can draw it back but snapping it back works too; maybe even better for others.

Bottom line: It's a valid technique and has many, many proponents. I never could do it or believed in it for longest time, but once I learned how I know it's an advantage to "have" for me!

By the way, how do you define "stroking the ball?" Isn't a wrist shot considered a stroke shot? Not trying to be obnoxious but I'm a little confused what you mean?

Thanks for the reply.

F8it

i never said using a wrist snap is bad advice......BUT they way you worded it was. you said that people who were not "strong" had to rely on snapping the wrist. which is far from true. i have practiced and learned how to use a "snap draw" and i can draw the ball just as well without it, but there are shots that require wrist action, but these don't come up as often as you are suggesting.

you referred to mosconi's book a couple times........lets remember, mosconi's book has some of the worst errors ever put into a book.

you also suggested that mosconi snapped his wrist for drawing..........also remember that mosconi played STRAIGHT POOL......and that he was running into small off angle cuts that required him to draw the ball back as straight as possible for a short distance..........that is what a "snap draw" is perfect at doing.

you also said something about so many pro players using this wrist action to power draw, which is simply not true. you'll find that most top players(minus a few) use the LEAST moving parts possible.(this info doesn't just come from watching, but playing and taking lessons from several pro players)

yes, they do use what is called a "snap draw" but this is not needed to get draw MOST of the time. the "snap draw" is usally used when the object ball has a small angle and you want to draw the ball almost straight back.

bottom line, you must learn how to draw with and without your wrist................but "smaller" players as you put it DO NOT need to rely on wrist action.

my arm is no different than any other pool player, you suggest that it takes mass and muscle(or strength) to accelerate the cue thought the ball...........ok lets look at it this way, the cue is only around 19 ozs.........you have to be a VERY VERY weak person not to be able to propel the cue forward with enough speed not to draw the cue correctly........if you can't its not your "strength" its your stroke.

by "stroking" the ball i meant stroking without snapping.

and as far as being brutal.........no worse than you're going to encounter in your average pool hall..........i don't mean it to sound brutal........but if thats the way it comes across..........


VAP

Jon
04-22-2005, 06:15 AM
Get 'em VAP!!!

:D

vapoolplayer
04-22-2005, 06:31 AM
Get 'em VAP!!!

:D


i always thought you'd look nice wearing a cheerleading outfit :D

VAP

VQStyks
04-22-2005, 06:40 AM
Try choking up on your cue ball. If you normal stroke is 10 inches from the cue, move it to 8 inches. Keep adjusting closer until you can get what you want.

Jon
04-22-2005, 06:42 AM
The above post is right on.
A lot, and i mean A LOT of problems can be fixed by shortening the bridge.
I see too many people trying to imitate a long stroke, when they don't have the stroke for it.

Jon
04-22-2005, 06:42 AM
i always thought you'd look nice wearing a cheerleading outfit :D

VAP
VAP,

You are a sad, strange, little man...

:p

Bruce S. de Lis
05-10-2005, 12:23 PM
I have finally MASTERED MY DRAW SHOT to the point i can do it 8 out of 10 Tries. Not perfect yet, but working on it. ;)

stevel0609
05-10-2005, 05:52 PM
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:

I've used just about all the tips on the market and get really good results with a Elk soft tip.

P.S.

don't tell too many people :-)