PDA

View Full Version : One simple change that I think would improve 9ball


AceHigh
04-17-2005, 09:08 AM
Eliminate the push out. That's right, get rid of it entirely. This will not improve TV ratings, but I think it'll really show who the better player is.

Imagine a player breaks, and doesn't have a shot on the 1ball. Instead of pushing the cueball to a certain location, they would have to pull something out of their bag of tricks to either make the shot or play safe.

vapoolplayer
04-17-2005, 09:17 AM
Eliminate the push out. That's right, get rid of it entirely. This will not improve TV ratings, but I think it'll really show who the better player is.

Imagine a player breaks, and doesn't have a shot on the 1ball. Instead of pushing the cueball to a certain location, they would have to pull something out of their bag of tricks to either make the shot or play safe.

9 ball already rewards people who have a good break, or get lucky way to much.

VAP

Snapshot9
04-17-2005, 11:17 AM
Back when they played 2 shot out, you could push on any shot, and your opponent would then have the choice to take it or give it back. Giving it back, and missing the ball then would be a ball in hand foul.

I say leave the push out in, makes for mental challenges that I enjoy just as leaving your opponent a low percentage shot when you know you can not run the table.

Besides, back in the real old days, a push used to be when your opponent had a friend, pretending to be a stranger, walk right beside you as you are shooting and bump you pretending it was an accident ..... lol

Besides if the push out was eliminated just think what that would do to the spots that all the better players give to lessor players....

sniper
04-17-2005, 11:26 AM
I would leave the push out it's one of my favorite shots in the game, so much strategy involved especially in tight games. IMO nine ball needs more strategic play not less....

sjm
04-17-2005, 04:10 PM
I think that REQUIRING a push on the shot immeidately following the break would greatly reduce the game's luck factor. Getting rid of the push would further randomize a game having too great a luck factor in the first place.

Pugh
04-17-2005, 04:28 PM
I think that REQUIRING a push on the shot immeidately following the break would greatly reduce the game's luck factor. Getting rid of the push would further randomize a game having too great a luck factor in the first place.


IMO push outs are mandatory in 9-ball. If you take them out, I will saftey break everyrack and hook you 95% of the time and then you shoot and miss and give me ball in hand around 50% of the time.

AceHigh
04-17-2005, 08:01 PM
IMO push outs are mandatory in 9-ball. If you take them out, I will saftey break everyrack and hook you 95% of the time and then you shoot and miss and give me ball in hand around 50% of the time.

Too bad four balls have to hit a rail, and in most pro tournaments, 3 balls must pass the side pocket.

Perk
04-18-2005, 05:08 AM
It would be too easy to make a legal break, and get the cueball behind the pack with the 1 down table. Good point.

Jude Rosenstock
04-18-2005, 09:33 AM
IMO push outs are mandatory in 9-ball. If you take them out, I will saftey break everyrack and hook you 95% of the time and then you shoot and miss and give me ball in hand around 50% of the time.


There's an even simpler approach to all of this. I JUST WOULDN'T BREAK EVER AGAIN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE! I would pass all of my 9-ball breaks back to my sorry-ass opponent who would be REQUIRED to 1. Break from the Box 2. Make 3 balls pass the side-pockets AND 3. Not have the option of a push.

To suggest that pushing takes away the skill-element of the game is not giving pushes enough credit. The fact is, the push is a beautiful element of 9-ball and should NEVER be changed. It really is one of the few strategic moments in the game!

lewdo26
04-18-2005, 09:35 AM
There's an even simpler approach to all of this. I JUST WOULDN'T BREAK EVER AGAIN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE! I would pass all of my 9-ball breaks back to my sorry-ass opponent who would be REQUIRED to 1. Break from the Box 2. Make 3 balls pass the side-pockets AND 3. Not have the option of a push.

To suggest that pushing takes away the skill-element of the game is not giving pushes enough credit. The fact is, the push is a beautiful element of 9-ball and should NEVER be changed. It really is one of the few strategic moments in the game!
tap, tap, tap. Were I to write a post on the matter, it would sound exactly like this one. Well-said, Jude. The push is a beauty.

lukeinva
04-25-2005, 09:13 PM
Eliminate the push out. That's right, get rid of it entirely. This will not improve TV ratings, but I think it'll really show who the better player is.

Imagine a player breaks, and doesn't have a shot on the 1ball. Instead of pushing the cueball to a certain location, they would have to pull something out of their bag of tricks to either make the shot or play safe.


If you like 9ball that way just play in an APA 9ball league and see how much it sucks!! Never fails I lose the coin toss guy/girl breaks doesnt make anything then I am hooked behind 3 balls!!


I think they should make 9ball called pocket it would be better and it would take out a lot of the luck factor. I know every one here has played someone to where they lucked in a ball and then proceeded to run out. I am sure we all have even dont that. I think they should play it as a called pocket game it would make it better IMO!!

CaptainJR
04-26-2005, 04:50 AM
Eliminate the push out. That's right, get rid of it entirely. This will not improve TV ratings, but I think it'll really show who the better player is.

Imagine a player breaks, and doesn't have a shot on the 1ball. Instead of pushing the cueball to a certain location, they would have to pull something out of their bag of tricks to either make the shot or play safe.


This subject has been beat to death on here but since it is here again I'll state my opinions again.

First off on the subject of the push. Why would you want to get rid of something that makes the game more skillful? That is being said by someone that hopes he doesn't have to push out because I have trouble figuring out how to push out.

Secondly, how to improve the game of 9-ball? I don't think 9-ball would keep it's uniqueness if you called all balls. Just call the game ball (9-ball). I think that is all that is necessary. That would mean that the 9 on the break doesn't win. It would mean that if you do get a lucky two rail carom bank 3 ball combination and make the 9, it would be spotted and you still have to run to the 9 and call it. I really feel this would be a good thing for the game and still keep the character of the game.

AceHigh
04-26-2005, 06:03 AM
Here is a quote from Keith McCready from an interview he had with Phil Cappelle. I got the link from a post by JAM in the being on the road topic.

http://billiardspress.com/pronews.cfm


" Many of the good players that you read about now, back then I spotted them the 7-ball when they played the two-shot/push-out rule. It seemed like when they changed the rules, my game went down. They made it to where there is more luck involved instead of skill, and I really believe this to this day."

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems to me like Keith doesn't like the idea of the push out either, maybe I'm wrong. But the push doesn't add more skill to the game.

I do agree with CapJr's post about making it call the 9ball only.

FLICKit
04-26-2005, 09:30 AM
Secondly, how to improve the game of 9-ball? I don't think 9-ball would keep it's uniqueness if you called all balls. Just call the game ball (9-ball). I think that is all that is necessary. That would mean that the 9 on the break doesn't win. It would mean that if you do get a lucky two rail carom bank 3 ball combination and make the 9, it would be spotted and you still have to run to the 9 and call it. I really feel this would be a good thing for the game and still keep the character of the game.

I agree. Call 9-ball only would be a good improvement and reduce the luck factor of the game.

The biggest problem with 9-ball is that most new players never really improve at running racks, because they're more likely to win by cheesing the 9-ball.


Onto a different idea, just for a twist: I wonder what kinda impact it'd have on 9-ball, if when you call a pocket for the 9-ball and miss, then the opponent would have the option of taking the shot or passing it back.

The idea would be to increase skill, by further reducing the chances that someone will just fire away and randomly call a pocket anyway, just in case.

At this point, there'd be no benefit to calling a pocket for the 9, unless you're sure that it'll work to your advantage. With these rules wild stabs would be discouraged.

Jude Rosenstock
04-26-2005, 10:29 AM
I agree. Call 9-ball only would be a good improvement and reduce the luck factor of the game.

The biggest problem with 9-ball is that most new players never really improve at running racks, because they're more likely to win by cheesing the 9-ball.


Onto a different idea, just for a twist: I wonder what kinda impact it'd have on 9-ball, if when you call a pocket for the 9-ball and miss, then the opponent would have the option of taking the shot or passing it back.

The idea would be to increase skill, by further reducing the chances that someone will just fire away and randomly call a pocket anyway, just in case.

At this point, there'd be no benefit to calling a pocket for the 9, unless you're sure that it'll work to your advantage. With these rules wild stabs would be discouraged.

I've thought about this a lot and there are problems with having a call rule in a rotation game. I mean, everyone hates seeing an opponent miss, bank off three rails and find a pocket but what do you do about kick shots? Really, it makes safing incredibly easy since the kicker isn't awarded for what would normally be a fortunate roll. If you safe, you're all but guaranteed another shot at the table. Also, calling "safe" would make safing much, much easier since pocketing a ball wouldn't force you to shoot again. I mean, how huge would it be to pocket a hanging one-ball with a tied-up 2?

What must be understood before you consider new rules is that the rules in place are put there deliberately. They've been thought out to the fullest extent. Nothing is by accident and nothing was forgotten. Changing a rule has huge ramifications that need to be considered and weighed out against what's currently in place. In my opinion, call-shot 9-ball would be interesting but I doubt it would be better.

FLICKit
04-26-2005, 10:53 AM
I've thought about this a lot and there are problems with having a call rule in a rotation game. I mean, everyone hates seeing an opponent miss, bank off three rails and find a pocket but what do you do about kick shots? Really, it makes safing incredibly easy since the kicker isn't awarded for what would normally be a fortunate roll. If you safe, you're all but guaranteed another shot at the table. Also, calling "safe" would make safing much, much easier since pocketing a ball wouldn't force you to shoot again. I mean, how huge would it be to pocket a hanging one-ball with a tied-up 2?

What must be understood before you consider new rules is that the rules in place are put there deliberately. They've been thought out to the fullest extent. Nothing is by accident and nothing was forgotten. Changing a rule has huge ramifications that need to be considered and weighed out against what's currently in place. In my opinion, call-shot 9-ball would be interesting but I doubt it would be better.

Jude, you seemed to miss the point.
The suggestion was for Call 9-ball only. Not balls 1-8.

Of course, calling ALL shots would have significant impact on defense. We all understand that.

The Call 9-ball only rule was suggested to discourage the cheese factor of the game.

I suggested giving the next player the Option after missed "called 9-balls" as a further effort to discourage cheeseyness.


The other thing to note, is that rules are not bounded for all eternity. Rules are subject to change and should be willing to be changed for the betterment of the game (i.e. look at football or basketball...). But only after extensive consideration and experimentation. That is what is being discussed here.

Jude Rosenstock
04-26-2005, 11:06 AM
Jude, you seemed to miss the point.
The suggestion was for Call 9-ball only. Not balls 1-8.

Of course, calling ALL shots would have significant impact on defense. We all understand that.

The Call 9-ball only rule was suggested to discourage the cheese factor of the game.

I suggested giving the next player the Option after missed "called 9-balls" as a further effort to discourage cheeseyness.


The other thing to note, is that rules are not bounded for all eternity. Rules are subject to change and should be willing to be changed for the betterment of the game (i.e. look at football or basketball...). But only after extensive consideration and experimentation. That is what is being discussed here.


How about changing it so the nine must be the only ball left on the table? If it's pocketed in any other situation, it's spotted and the shooter continues his inning.

christyd
04-26-2005, 06:09 PM
Here is a quote from Keith McCready from an interview he had with Phil Cappelle. I got the link from a post by JAM in the being on the road topic.

http://billiardspress.com/pronews.cfm


" Many of the good players that you read about now, back then I spotted them the 7-ball when they played the two-shot/push-out rule. It seemed like when they changed the rules, my game went down. They made it to where there is more luck involved instead of skill, and I really believe this to this day."

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems to me like Keith doesn't like the idea of the push out either, maybe I'm wrong. But the push doesn't add more skill to the game.

I do agree with CapJr's post about making it call the 9ball only.

I believe you misunderstood Keith's statement. I think he was referring to the days when 9-ball was two-shot/push out, there was less luck involved. I've heard several great players mention that 9-ball was a much better game with the two-shot/push out as compared to the existing push out rule that is only available after the break.

CaptainJR
04-26-2005, 08:37 PM
How about changing it so the nine must be the only ball left on the table? If it's pocketed in any other situation, it's spotted and the shooter continues his inning.


That type of change is what I was talking about when I said 'you don't want to change the charactor or the game. Not winning on a good combo shot would change the charactor of the game so I wouldn't be for that. Just callling the 9 ball only wouldn't change the charactor of the game.

Rod
04-26-2005, 08:53 PM
Eliminate the push out. That's right, get rid of it entirely. This will not improve TV ratings, but I think it'll really show who the better player is.

Imagine a player breaks, and doesn't have a shot on the 1ball. Instead of pushing the cueball to a certain location, they would have to pull something out of their bag of tricks to either make the shot or play safe.

Get rid of the push? Well if your talking only on TV possibly. A push has always been a stratgety move for at least two reasons. If the person that brakes is hooked, obviously is one. An incomming player after the brake shouldn't have to throw the game away because they're hooked.

If testing skill is what you want, that and speeding up the game. Just play if you miss the other player gets ball in hand.

Rod

hobokenapa
04-26-2005, 10:17 PM
As mentioned in another post, there is no push in APA 9-ball. I'm in Vegas now for the APA 9-ball Finals, and I'm very interested to see how the top players break. Whether a normal 9-ball break, or play to send the 1 up table and hook your opponent behind the pack.

FLICKit
04-27-2005, 09:57 AM
I played in the CPA for about a year, (until I got sick of fluke shots & joined the BCA), and always lagged to decide who breaks. Find I have control and better odds over wining the break than the toss of a coin.

I practice the lag 4-10 times, (alternating sides of the table), to get the feel of the cloth/rails and almost always win the lag.

Just to clarify a point, both CPA and BCA rules are to lag to determine the break. If the two players agree to utilize some method other than that, then that's up to player discretion. But, if there is any disagreement then the rules clearly state that you lag for break.

FLICKit
04-27-2005, 11:44 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the European/Asian tours, don't they have a rule that you must call the nine-ball?. I once saw a match on ESPN with Jeanette Lee and she almost forgot to call the pocket on the nine-ball. She later commented that she almost gave the whole thing away there. If the European/Asian tour requires this, why not the North American tour?.

I've thought about it some more and think that you guys are right, calling the 1-8 balls is silly. I'm just not a big fan of the fluke shot in general after my little romp in the CPA leagues.

Call 9-ball would definitely be an improvement and works well for the pros.
Calling the 9-ball would greatly reduce the cheese factor of the game.

The amateur players may still decide to call a pocket on the 9-ball on every shot, either randomly or take a half-assed shot. Cheese shots discourages amateur players from learning how to run-out balls. Thus, one solution, is to give the player the option (taking the next shot, or passing it to opponent), when the opponent misses on a called 9-ball shot. This would serve as an additional incentive for players to only call reasonable shot attempts. That would serve to encourage players of all levels to play run-out 9-ball.

The fluke shot on the 1-8 balls has its advantages. Forces the player to play much stronger safeties, because if the opponent can get a good hit on the ball (even strategical hit - controlling the pace, separation of balls, directions of ball travels) or even pocket it, which will counter the opponent's defensive measures. Thus the defender has to use much more effort to execute a good safety, so that player can improve their chances of being given such a high reward of ball in hand. This encourages increased skill by the defender, and increased incentive for the defensed player to go for a good hit. The fluke shot, also encourages players to run more tables. If the player messes up a run-out, then a safety play could get countered. Thus, if the player ran it out to begin with, then they wouldn't encounter that additional risk of being countered.

There are always some extreme examples of fluke shots, but it'd be very difficult to eliminate them all. At some point, you have to realize that it's just a game and there will be some element of luck involved. If you can't handle some luck, then you probably shouldn't be playing this game, or any other games.

Most of the time the luck factor is just some excuse for the loser to use, so that the loser can ignore all the other bad play that is in their game. In other words, your opponent doesn't have a chance to make a lucky shot, if they never get to the table.

Fred Agnir
04-27-2005, 02:03 PM
Eliminate the push out. That's right, get rid of it entirely. This will not improve TV ratings, but I think it'll really show who the better player is.

They have had every type of ruleset imaginable on TV. That would inclulde no push outs. It didn't make a difference. The general public didn't get sucked in. And the best players still always won (Sigel)

Fred

FLICKit
04-28-2005, 12:01 AM
Yes, I'll quite aware of the rules in both leagues, but in Canada the CPA offers the players the option to flip for the break. Someone was saying that they always flip a coin for the break and come up losing. I was simply saying that they could disagree with a coin flip and take it to the lag, giving themselves reasonable odds of success (at least more reasonable than 50/50). Thanks

First of all, 50/50 would be reasonable odds. Can't get any more reasonable than that.

Next of all, I researched the rules in the CPA for determining the break.

http://www.poolplayers.ca/8-ball.shtml

2. Lag -
Method used to start a match. Players simultaneously shoot a ball from behind the headstring, banking it off the foot rail and back to the head of the table. The closest ball to the head rail wins. It is permissible to strike the head rail. If the lagged balls make contact with each other, lag over.

Chris_Lynch
04-28-2005, 12:55 AM
You know how in Snooker they have to pocket a red ball to begin each inning? Maybe 9-ball could be that you have to pocket the low ball or play safe your first shot at the table. Luck shots or combinations (even on the 9) wouldn't be permissable. I'm sure there are flaws but I'm not thinking totally clear at this time of the day.