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View Full Version : Rotation is the game to play!


Renegade
04-18-2005, 01:50 AM
Let's all play rotation -- a way better game than 7-, 9-, or 10-ball! Eight ball is fine, too, but I think rotation should be the game of choice of serious pool players. Now if only someone would sponsor the tournament.....

AceHigh
04-18-2005, 06:14 AM
Yes. . . you go ahead and find someone to sponsor TV matches for rotation. Just don't tell them how long a game can take.

Tablemechanic
04-18-2005, 12:26 PM
Put up the money and I will stake Efren. He would rob everyone at that game. He is the best in the World at it.

Renegade
04-20-2005, 09:33 PM
i think if efren will commit to play sponsors will come. but then again, who would want to play against him in rotation? maybe it's a bad idea after all.....

LastTwo
04-20-2005, 09:57 PM
i think if efren will commit to play sponsors will come. but then again, who would want to play against him in rotation? maybe it's a bad idea after all.....

Antonio Lining plays Efren rotation even, and he wins sometimes.

TheBook
04-21-2005, 05:42 AM
Why is the length of the game always a issue. In 9 ball after a game or a break there will be a commerical. When the game resumes the announcer will say because of time restraints we have edited the match. What did they cut out, good safety play or the loser running a few racks?

No matter what game they show on TV all of the strategy or safeties will be cut out so they can show balls dropping into the pockets, or a jump shot.

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 07:15 AM
In a recent thread that got all kinds of different opinions regarding what can be done about improving 9ball, I'd like to state the first thing that can be done with Rotation is change the method for scoring. I know it's the way the game is played and has been that way forever, but it just never made sense.
There's gotta be a better way.

chefjeff
04-21-2005, 07:24 AM
Let's all play rotation -- a way better game than 7-, 9-, or 10-ball! Eight ball is fine, too, but I think rotation should be the game of choice of serious poo players. Now if only someone would sponsor the tournament.....

The problem with rotation games is shot selection is pretty much taken out of the equation. This, imho, takes the most fun out of playing or watching the game.

Jeff Livingston

ceebee
04-21-2005, 08:33 AM
The problem with rotation games is shot selection is pretty much taken out of the equation. This, imho, takes the most fun out of playing or watching the game.

Jeff Livingston

I like playing "Short Rack 8-Ball'
(4 stripes, 4 solids & the 8 ball-racked like 9 Ball)
This is a brutal game. You can make it more difficult by requiring the players to shoot their chosen group of balls in rotational order. You might even add the "Last Pocket" requirement for the 8-Ball

Try this game. It is lots of fun. It is also a great gambling game. The break shot is extremely imporatant in this game

fxskater
04-21-2005, 10:43 AM
I like playing "Short Rack 8-Ball'
(4 stripes, 4 solids & the 8 ball-racked like 9 Ball)
This is a brutal game. You can make it more difficult by requiring the players to shoot their chosen group of balls in rotational order. You might even add the "Last Pocket" requirement for the 8-Ball

Try this game. It is lots of fun. It is also a great gambling game. The break shot is extremely imporatant in this game

Damn that sounds like a sweet game. Short rack eightball played in rotation. I'm gonna have to give that one a try. Easy to handicap too. I run mine in rotation you run yours hoowerver you want. Not as many blocking balls, etc. I'm gonna play this one with my girlfriend and see how it goes. GREAT GAME CHARLIE.

drivermaker
04-21-2005, 10:47 AM
I like playing "Short Rack 8-Ball'
(4 stripes, 4 solids & the 8 ball-racked like 9 Ball)
This is a brutal game. You can make it more difficult by requiring the players to shoot their chosen group of balls in rotational order. You might even add the "Last Pocket" requirement for the 8-Ball

Try this game. It is lots of fun. It is also a great gambling game. The break shot is extremely imporatant in this game


How do you play the 8 on the break if it pockets? (what the hell...since this is a made up game I guess I can make up my OWN rules regarding that)

ceebee
04-21-2005, 10:58 AM
Damn that sounds like a sweet game. Short rack eightball played in rotation. I'm gonna have to give that one a try. Easy to handicap too. I run mine in rotation you run yours hoowerver you want. Not as many blocking balls, etc. I'm gonna play this one with my girlfriend and see how it goes. GREAT GAME CHARLIE.

Ordinarily I don't say anything about my accomplishments, but this time I will tell you a true story.

We played the "Short Rack 8-Ball Tournament", on a 7' Valley, around here for 6 weeks. The first week I didn't know about & I was out of town.

The second week through the 6th week, I won the tournaments. The 7th week no one wanted to play... reason being >>>>
"We can't win, Charley Bond's Break is too strong". Now that is a compliment.

I ran so many racks, I surprised myself. But, running the rack in "Short Rack 8-Ball" isn't too big a feat, when you make 2-3 balls on the break. I guess that was one of finest hours. People were hollering "The BreakRAK is working"...they also holler "The BreakRAK ain't working" when I don't do well.

My knees are gone so my Pool playing days are getting shorter & shorter.

sniper
04-21-2005, 11:53 AM
Antonio Lining plays Efren rotation even, and he wins sometimes.


I heard the same is true with Lee Van Corteza, but we all know that in the long run Efren will come out ahead.

Williebetmore
04-21-2005, 12:33 PM
I heard the same is true with Lee Van Corteza, but we all know that in the long run Efren will come out ahead.

Sniper,
No, we all don't know that (at least I don't). Rotation is just another stupid "rotation" game, just a few (?) more balls. When the last 2 balls count 10 times more than the first 2, the chance for luck to rear its ugly head is maximized. This is the same reason Efren doesn't even come close to winning every tournament. This is the same reason Earl and Efren (and probably any of the top 20 or 30 players would do the same) came out even when playing the "Color of Money" series - 9-ball does NOT let the best player always win, it gives all the really good players an equal chance - coin flipping would be just as meaningful among these players. Rotation games are a great exhibition of skill, but a terrible way to differentiate good players. Give us straight pool to 300 or 500 and we might have the same winner every week. A nice dynasty would be good for pool (I think).

sjm
04-21-2005, 05:15 PM
Sniper,
No, we all don't know that (at least I don't). Rotation is just another stupid "rotation" game, just a few (?) more balls. When the last 2 balls count 10 times more than the first 2, the chance for luck to rear its ugly head is maximized. This is the same reason Efren doesn't even come close to winning every tournament. This is the same reason Earl and Efren (and probably any of the top 20 or 30 players would do the same) came out even when playing the "Color of Money" series - 9-ball does NOT let the best player always win, it gives all the really good players an equal chance - coin flipping would be just as meaningful among these players. Rotation games are a great exhibition of skill, but a terrible way to differentiate good players. Give us straight pool to 300 or 500 and we might have the same winner every week. A nice dynasty would be good for pool (I think).

Agree with you about rotation, but the one thing we disagree on is the need for a long straight pool race to get the cream to rise to the top. When 14.1 is played on tight equipment, a race to 150, as evidenced by the results of the world championships in the golden age of straight pool, is plenty long enough to ensure that the cream will rise to the top.

pfduser
04-21-2005, 05:16 PM
Sniper,
No, we all don't know that (at least I don't). Rotation is just another stupid "rotation" game, just a few (?) more balls. When the last 2 balls count 10 times more than the first 2, the chance for luck to rear its ugly head is maximized. This is the same reason Efren doesn't even come close to winning every tournament. This is the same reason Earl and Efren (and probably any of the top 20 or 30 players would do the same) came out even when playing the "Color of Money" series - 9-ball does NOT let the best player always win, it gives all the really good players an equal chance - coin flipping would be just as meaningful among these players. Rotation games are a great exhibition of skill, but a terrible way to differentiate good players. Give us straight pool to 300 or 500 and we might have the same winner every week. A nice dynasty would be good for pool (I think).
I agree with you 100%!

fxskater
04-21-2005, 05:28 PM
Agree with you about rotation, but the one thing we disagree on is the need for a long straight pool race to get the cream to rise to the top. When 14.1 is played on tight equipment, a race to 150, as evidenced by the results of the world championships in the golden age of straight pool, is plenty long enough to ensure that the cream will rise to the top.

I think races to 150 would become extinct if players really focused on 14.1. Running 150 is an amazing feat but i bet you more pros could run 150 in straight pool than a race to 9 in 9 ball. Maybe im wrong but i like 300 points too.

sjm
04-21-2005, 05:51 PM
I think races to 150 would become extinct if players really focused on 14.1. Running 150 is an amazing feat but i bet you more pros could run 150 in straight pool than a race to 9 in 9 ball. Maybe im wrong but i like 300 points too.

You'd be surprised how short the list of those that have run 150 and out in tight pocket 14.1 world championship play really is. In those days, the typical game lasted about thirty innnings, inclusive of safeties. Only the elite would average more than seven balls per inning. Fifty ball runs are fairly special on tough equipment, and the knowledgeable crowds always understood it. I personally attended nine different world straight pool championship events, and remember it well. At his best, Sigel was averaging thriteen per inning. He was the best straight pooler of the last 50 years, but even his games lasted about twelve innings on average. Those who think 150 is a short race either never saw or have forgotten how tough it was to runs balls on tight equipment in the world 14.1 championships.

Williebetmore
04-21-2005, 06:14 PM
When 14.1 is played on tight equipment, a race to 150, as evidenced by the results of the world championships in the golden age of straight pool, is plenty long enough to ensure that the cream will rise to the top.

SJM,
Spoken like a true USGA official. You will probably remember the name of the USGA official who, in response to heavy criticism of a particularly tough U.S. Open venue (??Oakland Hills??) from the pro's, responded, "gentlemen, it is not our purpose to embarrass the best players in the world, it is our job to identify them." The USGA feels that the toughest conditions will bring the cream to the top (and with the exception of the odd Andy North aberration I think they are correct).

In my limited experience, I have still not seen a 50 ball run on the REALLY tight equipment locally, even playing with the pro's. You've at least convinced me that 200 would still be adequate (perhaps 150 in the early rounds, 200 in the later rounds). Mosconi liked to play to 2000; in his prime did not think anyone on the planet could even get close to him in such a long session. Of course about every other year they did have the long challenge matches for the championship, and no one ever did even get close (other than Greenleaf, way before Mosconi's prime). These were usually 10 foot tables, with napped cloth, different balls, I have no idea the usual pocket size.

I'm not sure if I've told you the story (perhaps apocryphal since it came from the degenerate pool players from KC that hung around with Mosconi when he lived there): Several times before championship matches, Mosconi felt the need to sharpen his safety game (they report that he did not feel ANY need to improve his offensive skill, it was always at the highest level). He would play one of these guys a game of straight pool to 1000. He would always insist on spotting them 900 balls (these guys claim to have been 100 ball runners). In this fashion, he still had to generate the offense, but absolutely could not try the low percentage "flyers" for which he was renowned, and had to play absolutely lockup safeties when he ran out of offense; missing was out of the question. Even these guys (possibly the most accomplished braggarts the world has yet known) could not recall ever beating Mosconi in one of these safety matches.

sjm
04-21-2005, 06:28 PM
I'm not sure if I've told you the story (perhaps apocryphal since it came from the degenerate pool players from KC that hung around with Mosconi when he lived there): Several times before championship matches, Mosconi felt the need to sharpen his safety game (they report that he did not feel ANY need to improve his offensive skill, it was always at the highest level). He would play one of these guys a game of straight pool to 1000. He would always insist on spotting them 900 balls (these guys claim to have been 100 ball runners). In this fashion, he still had to generate the offense, but absolutely could not try the low percentage "flyers" for which he was renowned, and had to play absolutely lockup safeties when he ran out of offense; missing was out of the question. Even these guys (possibly the most accomplished braggarts the world has yet known) could not recall ever beating Mosconi in one of these safety matches.

Nice story, Willie. You know, much has been writeen about how the great ones like Greenleaf, Ponzi, and Mosconi loved to play 150 no count against the shortstops. Less is written about how many top players liked to play "twenty and stop" races to 150. In that game, after running twenty, the pro would be required to play safe, and then give up the table. Even if they played it perfectly, the pro couldn't get out in less than eight innings, ensuring the inclusion of safety play in the match. The shortstops would win some of these matches, which placed great pressure on the pro.

Williebetmore
04-21-2005, 06:37 PM
Nice story, Willie. You know, much has been writeen about how the great ones like Greenleaf, Ponzi, and Mosconi loved to play 150 no count against the shortstops. Less is written about how many top players liked to play "twenty and stop" races to 150. In that game, after running twenty, the pro would be required to play safe, and then give up the table. Even if they played it perfectly, the pro couldn't get out in less than eight innings, ensuring the inclusion of safety play in the match. The shortstops would win some of these matches, which placed great pressure on the pro.

SJM,
Yes, dang it, but I STILL can't remember of that USGA official, very famous in golfing circles, head of the committee that set up the U.S. Open courses, I think recently retired (2-3 years ago). I would also be interested in your opinion of the "slow rolling" issue being discussed at the tail end of that "Golf Theory - Putting..." thread.

sjm
04-21-2005, 06:40 PM
SJM,
Yes, dang it, but I STILL can't remember of that USGA official, very famous in golfing circles, head of the committee that set up the U.S. Open courses, I think recently retired (2-3 years ago). I would also be interested in your opinion of the "slow rolling" issue being discussed at the tail end of that "Golf Theory - Putting..." thread.

I'll reply by PM.

Renegade
04-25-2005, 11:35 PM
Sniper,
.... When the last 2 balls count 10 times more than the first 2, the chance for luck to rear its ugly head is maximized. .....

shouldn't this just be more incentive to be creative with the combinations and billiards off the object ball? i think this is where imagination and creativity comes in and this makes for a more exciting game to watch. you have to hit the lowest-numbered ball first but no one said you can't pocket the higher-numbered balls ahead of the others.....

Williebetmore
04-26-2005, 05:48 AM
shouldn't this just be more incentive to be creative with the combinations and billiards off the object ball? i think this is where imagination and creativity comes in and this makes for a more exciting game to watch. you have to hit the lowest-numbered ball first but no one said you can't pocket the higher-numbered balls ahead of the others.....

Renegade,
You are absolutely correct. Therefore, if the 15 ball is hanging in the jaws next to the one ball, with a carom any beginner could make easily, that's worth 15 times as much as a tough, table length cut on the one ball.

Certainly creativity is part of the game; but the first several balls are usually the hardest to negotiate and the reward is minimal. The last few balls are the easiest (though you have to get to the table to pick them off), and the reward is the greatest. Seems backward to me. Perhaps we should be playing rotation in reverse order, starting with the 15 ball and working down. Sounds like more fun to me - I'll try it tomorrow.

Renegade
07-08-2005, 02:17 AM
Renegade,
You are absolutely correct. Therefore, if the 15 ball is hanging in the jaws next to the one ball, with a carom any beginner could make easily, that's worth 15 times as much as a tough, table length cut on the one ball.

Certainly creativity is part of the game; but the first several balls are usually the hardest to negotiate and the reward is minimal. The last few balls are the easiest (though you have to get to the table to pick them off), and the reward is the greatest. Seems backward to me. Perhaps we should be playing rotation in reverse order, starting with the 15 ball and working down. Sounds like more fun to me - I'll try it tomorrow.

Well, how'd it go? :)

I imagine it wasn't as much fun. By the time you get to the 5ball (with a value of 11 in reverse rotation), you'd have won the game with a score of 65 (61 to win). The scenario you mentioned with the "15ball hanging in the jaws next to the one ball" can happen, but i reckon not often. And that's part of the game, as with a golden break in 9ball -- it happens, but not that often.
More often than not, a good rotation player would try to manufacture these high-rewards shots by feathering low balls towards the high balls for the carom or billiard or the combination later on. Planning, creativity, imagination, accuracy, skill, experience would be bigger factors than luck or a strong break ever will.

Joe T
07-08-2005, 06:52 AM
I think it's been suggested before and I've played it with my partners many times prior to 9 ball tournaments. Race to 100 Rotation. 1pt per ball. I've always disliked the number equals the points version.

I use to have a nice loft apartment "The Cave" in Providence where we would all go after our weekly wed night 9 ball tournament and play 3-6 player rotation ring games. Starting off the evening $1 per ball and usually ending the next day at $5 per ball. It was way better than typical ring games. Just running 10 balls at only $2 per ball with 4 or 5 guys paying you was SWEET!