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Jimmy M.
04-07-2003, 01:13 PM
I just went to L.A. to play in a lousy, $20-entry, monthly tournament where Hard Times added $1000, and they had NINETY-SEVEN players! They do have a handicap in place there which is, professionals go to one more game than non-professionals. So, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, "why can't they have something like this in Phoenix?" The answer is pretty simple, but even more than being simple, it's frustrating because the answer is so obvious, but yet, the people who are in a position to try to change it either don't care to, or are in denial over the problem!

I played in a tournament at Pappy's in Phoenix a couple weeks ago. It was a well-run tournament and all, but it was only a $5-entry fee tournament, and they added $1000! What is funny about this is, they HAVE to make it a $5-entry tournament, otherwise they'd probably get about half of the entrants that they did get, and that is being optimistic! Most of the, so called, open tournaments in town practically have to be a free entry fee, and offer a huge advantage to the lower rated players just to get 20 players! What is really sick is that so many of the people here who won't spend $20 to play in an open tournament will gladly go out and practice and spend $20 in table-time, or spend $2000 on a cue, or go play a round of golf for $100 (I'd go on, but I think anyone reading this gets the point).

Obviously, it isn't the money that is keeping people from playing in open tournaments, because they'll spend that amount on other activities without thinking twice. If you go play in tournaments in other states, and see that they are able to get a decent turn out without having to lower the entry fee to practically nothing, and/or handicap it to the point that they are effectively begging people to play, it becomes all too obvious that the one thing that doesn't exist in those states, but does exist in Arizona, is a statewide ratings system. This state has a ton of players, but yet, if a pool room in town wanted to add $1000 to a tournament, and make it even just a $50 entry fee, they wouldn't get many players at all, and unless it was handicapped, they might not get enough to even hold a tournament! It really is sad that players who live in a city (I'm just talking about Phoenix now) with so many players in it have to travel outside of the state of Arizona to play in anything really worth playing in.

I also don't really understand the motivation of the people participating on the Ratings Committee. Maybe I'm way off, but I can't imagine that the room owners and operators benefit much at all from the ratings system. Sure, it may sound like it would be worth it to them, but I doubt there is much of anything to gain on paper. The way I see it is, there is hardly anything to gain, but yet, it is completely screwing up pool in the state of Arizona. Anyway, I could go on and on to solidify my argument here, but basically, the best solution to the problem would be to do away with the ratings system all together, and if a pool room wants to handicap their tournaments, let them devise their own system, such as A/B/C, to do so. The chances of that actually happening, however, are about the same as me winning the lotto this week ... and I didn't buy a ticket!

P.S. If you think everything I said here is bullsh*t, try going to another state with a big city that has a lot of pool players in it and see what it's like there. Then come back to Arizona and ask yourself why it is different here.

Blackjack
04-07-2003, 01:46 PM
It's not much different here in El Paso, where they handicap everything in site just to attract as many players as possible. Then, after the tournament draws many players, they shave the matches down to a race to three. The biggest tournament in El Paso is Saturday afternoon at clicks. It is round robin play. When you lose 6 games, you are out of the tournement, and all matches are race to 1. Myself, I can only lose 4 or 5 (depending on the mood of the TD) and I am out, which is fair, but I don't like the idea of race 1, but the tourney attracts so many players of different skill levels, they needed to speed things up. I've done pretty well with that system, but I've also done not well, which makes the system even itself out. I guarantee you if I win this tournament again, I'll be 3 losses and out, a fate I'd prefer to giving someone the wild 5 out which was the last system they used. Pretty much when someone's got to give you the 5 out, someone should have stayed home. Without smashing the feelings of the person getting the 5 out, I declined to play in the tournament and tried to find competition that was more on MY level. I'm not alone there, I can remember when Keith McCready was in El Paso a few years back they would not allow him to play at a tournament just because of who he was (Gabbie's). This was quite puzzling to me when I heard about it, but several months later Mando Canales and I were both turned away as well. We weren't there to slaughter the competition, we just wanted to hit some balls. Go Figure. I had always thought that most places wanted to draw the best players, thus giving the regulars a chance to play the best players in their area. Another point is that Hard Times has always drawn many players at all of their tournaments, and the players that show up are very tough, pro status or not. Pretty much the same can be said of the tournaments at CJ's in Dallas, and Amsterdam Billiard Club East in Manhatten. Tough tournaments are tough due to the tough players that enter them.

jjinfla
04-07-2003, 02:09 PM
You guys should come to Fat Cats in Florida sometime. It's open to anyone for only $25. But if you don't want to go 2 and out you better be a pretty good "A" player. (Of course I am not referring to you when I say you)I have seen Varner, Williams, Grossman, Richardson, Martin, Viera, Brompton, Townsend, Ellersby, etc play there at times. But the average Joe, or even the above average Joe, doesn't really have a chance to come in the money. But then, the place is under new management, not serving food, and has not really been getting that many players in the past several months.

Jimmy M.
04-07-2003, 02:32 PM
Tournaments die out and then come back. It's a cycle. If a tournament is going to die out for a while, making it a $2 entry-fee and handicapping it to the point that good players are playing opposite handed, behind the back, isn't going to make much of a difference. Unfortunately, so many others either disagree with that, or just don't realize it, so a place like Arizona becomes what it is today, as far as pool is concerned. Granted, AZ is an extreme example, but I think there are other states and/or cities that aren't far behind!

vagabond
04-07-2003, 05:23 PM
Hello Friends,
A friend of mine, a gambler,from Arizona also believes that handicap system ruined the game. I do not share that view.Jimmy,I got an idea.All those 10 minus 1 and 10 minus 2 s, who were not allowed in the local tourneys,form your own league and have your own picnics and tournaments,if one is concerned about loosing touch with the tournament play. Hi ,Black Jack,
Why don`t Clicks in Elpaso have more 9 foot tables?They have good chicken wings though! Cheers
Vagabond:) :D :D :D

Blackjack
04-07-2003, 05:32 PM
vagabond asks-
why doesn't Clicks in El Paso have more 9 ft tables?


That's another flaw in their tourney system. You can play some matches on 8 footers and some on 9 footers, seeing that they only have 4 - 9 ft tables. I guess when it opened, they figured they could fit more 8 ft tables in, therefore genrating more revenue from the tables. They charge over $8 an hour per player after 7PM, with the exception of a few days where they have a constant flat rate from open to close. I've only been there twice since December. I play mostly in rooms when I'm on the road.

AzHousePro
04-07-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by jjinfla
You guys should come to Fat Cats in Florida sometime. It's open to anyone for only $25. But if you don't want to go 2 and out you better be a pretty good "A" player. (Of course I am not referring to you when I say you)I have seen Varner, Williams, Grossman, Richardson, Martin, Viera, Brompton, Townsend, Ellersby, etc play there at times. But the average Joe, or even the above average Joe, doesn't really have a chance to come in the money. But then, the place is under new management, not serving food, and has not really been getting that many players in the past several months.

Jake, how many of the players that enter are not good 'A' players? In Arizona, you will not find many average players competing in a tourney against the big boys. If they see Jimmy M in a tourney, they will pack up and go elsewhere.

If someone wanted to, I am sure they could find a bar-box tourney to play in every night of the week. (assuming they were not an 8 or higher on the ratings sheet) The players don't see a top rated player as someone they can watch and learn from. They just see the top rated player as someone to keep them from winning a tourney.

But then again, people here in Az don't see being raised as a good thing either. People strive to be the best player in their rating group. They would rather be the best 7 in town, instead of another medium 8. Being the best 7 means you can rape a number of tourneys that are limited to 7 rated players and being another medium 8 means you have to fight to win a tournament.

Mike

Porter
04-07-2003, 07:46 PM
Arkansas is where I 'are'

I don't feal as frustrated about our tournements after reading these posts.

Open tournements have about gone away unless you advertise and get road players to come in. Then a lot of the locals pull up.
A 32 man field is special any more.

As far as handicap tournements go. The better players continue to ***** about handicaps and continue to take the money. The shortstops get there some and the average players and below continue to contribute or get better or quit. To often the quit is the choice.

The handicap system is a little subject to question. I ask if any of you have a system that you like for 9 ball handicaping?

Our 10 point system includes playing call 9. The better players want to keep the call 9 because they are afraid the 3s & 4s will S/O on them. I am trying to push to removve the call 9 with not much support.

I am looking for a good 9 ball handicap system to introduce to them.

Help Please

Porter

stick8
04-07-2003, 11:21 PM
I run pool room, if I didnt run rated tourny I would not have one long I have run run open tourny with added big money. some road hog would slide in and win then he was gone until next tourny. so I have low entry, and rate it keep the money home for my home boys!!be good to your regular customars. STICKl

jjinfla
04-08-2003, 06:28 AM
Mike, they used to draw around 32 players but now they have trouble getting 20. They would get some average players to enter just for the privilage of playing a pro. One elderly gentleman would enter and had no hope of winning a match, let alone come in the money, and he knew it but just liked to play against them. I saw him play Grossman and he accidently touched the CB with his Cue and Grossman told him to go ahead and shoot, and took it easy on him too. the term "A" player is pretty subjective and I use it to mean someone who would be at least a 7 in APA, someone who is capable of running out anytime he gets to the table. And wins most of the time when he plays agains lesser players. But an "A" player in one part of town may not be able to compete against an "A" player in another part of town. As far as handicaps go here they are all very subjective and set by the pool hall owners. Usually if a player wins a tournament twice they move him up. Or if he wins a certain amount of money they move him up. Two places play races to your handicap on sundays. Then during the week the handicap is a spot ball the difference between handicaps. Unfortunately they only pay 3 or 4 places so the average Joe has a very hard time coming in the money. The handicap mentioned above where the pro player spots everyone a game on the wire is a joke. All it means is that most people would lose 5-1 or 7-1. The top players would probably win a few more games but still lose the match. I would like to see single leagues where people play against people at their own level. Have it set up for D, C, B, A, AA, pro. At the end of the session the top player would move up to the next level and the bottom player would move down one level. That's the way they worked handball and racketball back in Chicago. They could run single leagues in addition to team leagues. Jake

Jimmy M.
04-08-2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Porter
As far as handicap tournements go. The better players continue to ***** about handicaps and continue to take the money. The shortstops get there some and the average players and below continue to contribute or get better or quit. To often the quit is the choice.


I don't mind giving up the weight, but almost all of the tournaments here are limited to a certain rating and under, so the better players don't even get to play. This isn't even the the main problem, although it is the main problem in the system being so inaccurate because the "ratings" they are assigning to people have no meaning unless they are related to all the other numbers on the scale. How can you accurately rate someone a 7, and another a 10, when the 7 and the 10 never play each other? The numbers 7 and 10 have no meaning other than their relationship to each other. But who cares, that is a whole different topic.

Another poster, who I guess I know but never wants to let on who he is, suggested all the better players in town go do ... whatever it is he said we all go do. He displays the type of mentality that this system has created around here. There really isn't much of a dispute over what the rating system has done. There is no denying (although they try) that there are a ton of players in this state, but the pool scene here sucks! There is no incentive for a player to get any better. In fact, it is encouraged to keep playing like shit! Usually, when this discussion is brought up around here, the people who support the system don't see a problem because there isn't one for them. They don't play all that well, and the system works great for them. They can play in a tournament every night of the week. They get the 12 shots per game that they need to win one, and life is great!

All I can say to people like Vagabond is, no need to sit there and make assenine suggestions. The better players in town aren't going to run out and start some little gay club or anything like that. The rating system isn't going anywhere, and you'll still have your little tournaments to play in where you can get together with a bunch of other guys, beat the shit out of the rails, shit in a 9 ball or two, and win a tournament. Have fun.

Blackjack
04-08-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Jimmy M.

There is no incentive for a player to get any better. In fact, it is encouraged to keep playing like shit! Usually, when this discussion is brought up around here, the people who support the system don't see a problem because there isn't one for them. They don't play all that well, and the system works great for them. They can play in a tournament every night of the week. They get the 12 shots per game that they need to win one, and life is great! ...........

All I can say to people like Vagabond is, no need to sit there and make assenine suggestions. The better players in town aren't going to run out and start some little gay club or anything like that. The rating system isn't going anywhere, and you'll still have your little tournaments to play in where you can get together with a bunch of other guys, beat the shit out of the rails, shit in a 9 ball or two, and win a tournament. Have fun.

Jimmy, you talk my kinda talk.
That is the main reason why pool has gone absolutely nowhere but backwards the past ten years. Participation is up, but participation is up on the coin chompers, and lots of people are getting rich as the sport goes nowhere; and the quality of play has been watered down and diluted to fit the needs of the "occasional" or novice player. Let's face it though, that's where the numbers are, and those are the people that are actually spending money to buy products. All of the businesses in the industry know that, and that is their target market, as well as the target market of the room owners in your state, as well as many others. That is why I mentioned the problem of excluding the better players or handicapping their nuts off in the hopes that they'll eventually stay away. Stick's response was right on the money. He knows that he needs to keep it good for his paying customers. I don't know how it is there, but I'd venture to say that it's just like it is here in El Paso. The "top players" aren't likely to spend a lot of money in any room. They got short arms and deep pockets. I know that because I've owned rooms in the past, and most (not all) of the "best players" are looking for freebies and handouts. You may or may not fit into that category, none of my business, but that's a major problem that's been around longer than both of us. L.A.'s got a strong field, and it may not be a bad idea to go there on a regular basis as the experience factor would help you tremendously. Albuquerque also has a strong field of players, and back in the 1980's and 1990's, I'd always go up there to match up with Louie Roybal, Cisco Martinez, Wil Maestas and others. When you play guys at your level consistently, you tend to not really pay attention to what's going on in the leagues and B level tournaments. Besides, why waste the energy if it just pisses you off?

Jimmy M.
04-08-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Blackjack
L.A.'s got a strong field, and it may not be a bad idea to go there on a regular basis as the experience factor would help you tremendously. Albuquerque also has a strong field of players, and back in the 1980's and 1990's, I'd always go up there to match up with Louie Roybal, Cisco Martinez, Wil Maestas and others. When you play guys at your level consistently, you tend to not really pay attention to what's going on in the leagues and B level tournaments. Besides, why waste the energy if it just pisses you off?

L.A. isn't what it used to be, but it's still a pretty good spot. Especially when you compare it to here! :-). There isn't a lot of action like there was for a while, but there are still tournaments to play in. Hard Times adds $1000 to their Sunday tournament once a month.

Back on the topic of this system here, it really is a joke. I don't know what the intended purpose of it is, but if it is to knock action, keep better players out of tournaments, and make sure nobody wants to improve, it's working!

AzHousePro
04-08-2003, 12:42 PM
I will agree with Jimmy on this one. People in town do not want to be the best player they can be. They are more than happy to stay right where they are, and keep playing the same people over and over.

I can remember years ago when someone would walk into the pool hall that I played in. One of the regulars would play the guy, if the regular got beat, then another of the regulars would step up to try to get the job done. It was a pride thing. We didn't want some 'nobody' coming into our room and beating us.

Nowadays, almost no one plays in town without first finding out what the other players rating is.

There are a few exceptions though. I ran into a buddy from years ago that had been out of the pool scene for a while. He was never rated when he played before. They rated him a six and he accepted that because he didn't know what the ratings were. When he discovered that he was really a high 7 or 8, he went to the committee rep and asked to be raised at the next meeting. (Of course, he did take off a couple 6's and under tourneys before he was raised)

Mike

Jimmy M.
04-08-2003, 01:17 PM
Hi Mike. I have had many players in this town tell me how they don't want to be a 10 or 10-1, or even 1 more than what they are currently rated, for that matter. It goes against human nature to not want to improve at something that you do on a regular basis. Have you ever heard a golfer say, "I shoot in the high 90's, but I don't want to play any better than that"?!? Golfers will go out and spend $500 on a driver if they think they'll hit the ball 10 yards further with it!

I think the best solution would be what I said in my first post - to do away with the system all together, and let rooms that want to host handicapped tournaments devise their own system. However, if they would just open every tournament (do away with the "something-and-under" tournaments) a lot of the problems with the rating system would go away (like the system being so inaccurate and players not wanting to get any better).

Chucklez65
04-08-2003, 02:12 PM
I was going to stay out of this discussion because it never seems to have a resolution, but here is my opinion.

The ratings system is not perfect....there is no argument about this...but for about 9300 members out of the close to 9800 members we have onthe list now...it works pretty well.

I agree absolutely that something needs to be done about the ratings as they exist right now, but the problem is this:

The bar and pool room owners, who are guilty of nothing accept trying to be successful, have figured out that of the 9800 people on the ratings sheet, 9300 or more are 7's and under. Well, these 7's and under spend a lot more money as a group than do the 300-400 who are 8's and above. Now, unfortunately, the 7's and under as a group, for the most part, will not play in a tourney they they see 9's or 10's invited too...so instead of getting 32-64 players in a touney...you get 16-25, if that. Now you would think that out of that 16-25 players in a 9 and under or 10 and under touney that most of those remaining would be 9's and 10's, but they are not. Because there are only a few players in the tourneys, the 9's and 10's dont show up either, because there is not the incentive to play in a small tourney like that. It doesnt make any sense, but Ive seen it happen, time and time again. So, its sort of a catch 22 for the bar owners...because they only want to make money. They didnt open their business to cater to only a relative few players..they would rather have the greater of the two groups in their bar spending money, and I dont blame them. A local establshment here on the west side holds an 8 and under tourney on Friday nights and it is full, with 32 players, without fail, almost every week. It starts at 8pm and is usually full by 7:00 or 7:30 with a few being turned away at 8:00. The reason for this is that it caters to the 6's and 7's as it is a ratings minus 3 and loser breaks...over half the players are normally 6's. They have a good chance to win this tourney because of the format. If they changed the format at all, bye alternating breaks, or winner breaks, or even making it a minus 2 tourneyand opening it up to 9's or 10's to draw higher rated players, within a month, it would be a 16 player field again and because of this, the higher rated players would not show up anyway. This place had a 9-under tourney with the exact same format on Saturday night, but hey made it a 9-under and without fail, 1 or 2 9's showed up, and they got less than 16 players to participate every week. A 9 very seldom ever won it by the way, but they did not have any 6's at all....so they changed the format to 8's and under again about 2 months ago and it has 24 or more again.

I believe that the ratings system should be revamped and possibly make it more graduated than going straight from 6 to 7 and 7 to 8, etc. A friend and fellow committe member brought up the possibility of redesigning the ratings to have it more graduated by making a 6 to 6 +1 to 7 type system. Under the current system, you have a 6 rated player who starts dominating his fellow players as a 6 and goes to a higher rating. By doing this, you now lose his patronage in your tournaments as well as your bar. But, if you have a graduated system and make him a 6+1, he can still play in the 6-under tourney, but he would go to an extra game, or his opponent would go to one less than his normal race, if time is an issue for the races. He could still play with the group of friends he has made and shoots with all the time and if he is still dominating them, the you make him a 7. same with all the other ratings. Now something like this would be a nightmare for the committee to implement because at least have the players at each level would want to be rerated, but if that aspect could be figured out, then it might make for a more gradual change in the ratings problems we have. This is just one idea that I have heard and liked.

We also would need to have a large group of the bar owners that would be willing to take a chance and open their tourneys up to higher rated players, but still have races to handicap or handicap minus a number...if enough of them do this and they stick by it for more than a month or two, they would still get their tourneys filled up, eventually, because the 7's and under will still want to play and will come back and fill up the tourneys...but it will be hard to get the owners to set down the rating system and their 7-under and 8-under touneys because there is so much money to made from the much larger group of lower rated players.

I believe in the committee and I think that it has done a lot for pool in the state of Arizona, but it does need improvements to make it a good thing to progress in talent and ability.

I am trying to work from within the system to make changes and anyone else that has opinions or ideas can submit a request to join the committee and help with the changes or possibly give ideas to other committee members that they might know. The committee has opened itself up. It is accepting applications for members at large or players representatives. One just needs to send a letter with desire and qualifications to Ron Marseal, Arizona Billiards News or Bob Jackson, Main Street Billiards. Both email and snailmail addresses can be found in the Arizona Billiard News.

Im not recruiting, just letting Arizona pool players know that they have the ability to help make a change in the system as it exists right now.

Anywayz, thats my humble opinion and take a breath now...Im done typing.

Chuck Parrill

Jimmy M.
04-08-2003, 02:42 PM
The purpose of a handicap is so that everyone can play together and be competitive. The fact that there are "something-and-under" tournaments is a concession that the arizona ratings system fails to accomplish that. If every tournament were open, eventually the lower rated players would play because they want to play in tournaments and they're not going to sit out forever. Also, those players would want to improve to be more competitive.

There is no need to worry about revamping the system when the system doesn't work because players are segregated, not because there is a lack of "middle numbers" on the scale. As I said before, how can the committee possibly expect a 7 and a 10 to match up fairly when 7's are rated by their performance against other 7's, and 10's are rated by their performance against 10's? 7's and 10's hardly ever play each other, so what are those numbers based on? How are those two numbers related?

Anyway, my posting on here about this isn't going to change anything, and in fact, nothing is. The rating system will stay the same, pool in this state will continue to suck, and I'll keep going out of town to play whenever I can get time off work. :D

That's all,

Jimmy

vagabond
04-08-2003, 07:17 PM
My dear friend Jimmy,
I can understand your frustrations but I do not agree with your position on handicap system.I will reveal myself for one time.I played in higher level tournaments including invitational and world championships.This is the first and last time I will ever remove my mask. I have lot of respect for u and my advise to u: If u lament too much u may loose your credibility.Cheers
Vagabond

Chucklez65
04-09-2003, 05:27 AM
My point above, included that I agree with Jimmy for the most part. I dont think there ought to be any "#-under" tournaments. If there is a rating system in place, then it should be open for all players to play in all tournaments, based on their ratings.

I think that there a lot of players that would be left out in the cold in an A B C system, in fact it was tried in Phoenix back at the end of the 80's and early 90's here...There is too much of an advantage to the higher rated players of the A's and the B's and the C's. If that is all we had, then of course people would work from within those parameters...but since the C players are 7 and unders and B players are 8 and 9 rated players and the A's are 10 rated players and above....the 7's, 9's, and 10-2's from the current system would dominate for a LONG time. So, I agree with the higher range of ratings...from 4 to 10-2.

The solution would be to (ideally) open ALL tournaments to ALL ratings. Abolish the #-under tourneys. Unfortunately, in my pessimistic opinion, the bar owners think that they would lose too much money if the tourneys were opened up. I wish we could get a significant number to commit to trying their tourneys as open to all ratings for a year or more just to see what would happen. I think that that it would help the game in Arizona and the current rating system.

again, just my opinion.

Chucklez65

Jimmy M.
04-09-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Chucklez65

The solution would be to (ideally) open ALL tournaments to ALL ratings. Abolish the #-under tourneys. Unfortunately, in my pessimistic opinion, the bar owners think that they would lose too much money if the tourneys were opened up. I wish we could get a significant number to commit to trying their tourneys as open to all ratings for a year or more just to see what would happen. I think that that it would help the game in Arizona and the current rating system.



I believe this would solve most of the problems.

To Vagabond: Maybe I offended you, but you have to admit, suggesting that the higher rated players go start a club and have picnics together couldn't possibly be a sincere suggestion.

8BALLQT247
04-09-2003, 12:22 PM
I have been reading all the posts here regarding the AZ ratings system and I have a comment that I didn't see anyone else make, in regards to leagues that is. I am a lady shooter, I play in a ladies 8ball league and 2 open 8ball & 9ball leagues here in AZ. The sad thing is that the ladies 8ball league has a Team Rating Cap much lower than the open 8ball & 9ball caps, leading me to believe that the league operator believes that all ladies are rated as low players, and should not try to make them selves any better. This thought has been reinforced by a team of ladies, who obviously don't want to get better because they complained against my team, simply because we beat them. I firmly believe that as a lady I should be able to shoot against anyone and give them a good game, if I get beat, so be it, at least I learned something from the game, I would hope. By keeping the rating cap for the ladies league much lower than any of the other leagues I believe that he's sending a message to ladies that we can't or shouldn't play as well as men do. I play in a ladies league because I enjoy shooting with my team and playing against just other ladies. I play in the open leagues because I like the diversity of shooting against men. I'm starting to see that in order to keep improving I'm going to have to drop the ladies league all together and keep playing with you guys, where at least I'll get the respect my game deserves. Thanks!

Chucklez65
04-09-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by 8BALLQT247
I have been reading all the posts here regarding the AZ ratings system and I have a comment that I didn't see anyone else make, in regards to leagues that is. I am a lady shooter, I play in a ladies 8ball league and 2 open 8ball & 9ball leagues here in AZ. The sad thing is that the ladies 8ball league has a Team Rating Cap much lower than the open 8ball & 9ball caps, leading me to believe that the league operator believes that all ladies are rated as low players, and should not try to make them selves any better. This thought has been reinforced by a team of ladies, who obviously don't want to get better because they complained against my team, simply because we beat them. I firmly believe that as a lady I should be able to shoot against anyone and give them a good game, if I get beat, so be it, at least I learned something from the game, I would hope. By keeping the rating cap for the ladies league much lower than any of the other leagues I believe that he's sending a message to ladies that we can't or shouldn't play as well as men do. I play in a ladies league because I enjoy shooting with my team and playing against just other ladies. I play in the open leagues because I like the diversity of shooting against men. I'm starting to see that in order to keep improving I'm going to have to drop the ladies league all together and keep playing with you guys, where at least I'll get the respect my game deserves. Thanks!

This is unfortunate...there should not be a lower cap on the ladies league because we happen to have quite a few ladies that shoot very well in Arizona. Maybe the league just doesnt want those ladies making a team and running away with it all the trophies.

Good Luck to you in your pool...I dont think you should let anyone hold you back if you have the desire to play well.

Chucklez65

Gerald
04-09-2003, 08:30 PM
The limited amount experience I have had with tournaments is that the TD should either know or be able to rate a players speed. At Hard Times people who go know that the competition is going to be strong but they are interested in competing and know that only their strongest day will get them to the money. I have a friend that has been going for 3yrs and he hasn't cashed out yet ( close but no dinero) but his game has sure improved! At a small local tournament, mostly B's & C's, we periodically have people of note stop by. One day a guy came in and told the TD that he was a "roadie" but would like to play, Jack, the TD checked with a few of us and told him "no problem" He of course won the tournament but we all enjoyed the day . His name was Troy Frank. At that tournament it is short races to 4 and 3 on the losers. When too many A's continue to show up he limits them to only the 1st Saturday of the month. Before he started doing that there was a time when Marcus Chamat snuck in and went 2 and out, short races, strange happenings. On the way out the TD told him he couldn't come back. Two and out and banned! Jimmy, how was the tournament at Hard Times for you? A friend told me that Parica was there last Sunday.

Toad13
04-09-2003, 08:40 PM
Why complain about tournaments and keep playinging in them. I live in AZ and I quit playing tournaments about 4 years ago. I bounce from pool hall and bar and play people. I don't get rich but my game has improved. I don't play like Jimmy but I hold my own. I could take advantage of the rating system but I choose not to. Jimmy AZ sucks for the better players you have known that for years. I have played against you years ago at Casino billiards in the winner take all tournament. I would play in tournaments that were run differently but I don't think many other people would so there is no money for the owner of the bar.

Jimmy I am Steve Rodgers son Dave. Take it easy

Jimmy M.
04-10-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Toad13
Why complain about tournaments and keep playinging in them.

Hey Dave. I saw your dad a couple weeks ago, I think at Pappy's. I'm not complaining about the tournaments I play in, although I did mention the one at Pappy's as an example of what they have to do if they want to draw players to an open tournament (make the entry fee $5). If they were to have made it a $50 entry fee, they would have been lucky to get 25 players.

Maybe I'll see you around some time if you come over to the East side!

Jimmy

Toad13
04-10-2003, 10:08 AM
I've been thinking about playing in a tournament but I have to get rated again. I'll make it out to the east side soon. Later Dave

ShowMeTheMoney
04-10-2003, 11:46 AM
I know this is kinda off subject, but I will be in Phoenix for the first time this summer. I was wondering which pool halls can I go to to play in tournaments? Which ones are good for action? And which ones are nice??? I only like to play on 9' tables. The tourney can be either 8 or 9 ball.

Rickw
04-10-2003, 12:23 PM
This pool hall that I go to have a B tournament on Monday nights and an A tournament on Tuesday nights. Both tournaments are a race to four. The difference is A players can't play in the B tournament and there is a flat rate for the entry. In the A tournament, a player pays from $5 - B player rate, on up to $15 or $20 depending on how good they play. When a B player starts winning the B tournament on a regular basis, they are bounced out. Of course there are some so-called B players that never seem to win the tournament but always get in the money.

One way to build up the number of players for a tournament is to have a go-off bucket. Have a lottery, $1 a ticket to see who can make the 9 ball on the break. That bucket really can get big. The bigger it gets, the more players you'll have. I've heard of go-off buckets getting as big as $10,000.

Skeezicks
04-10-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Chucklez65
The solution would be to (ideally) open ALL tournaments to ALL ratings. Abolish the #-under tourneys. Unfortunately, in my pessimistic opinion, the bar owners think that they would lose too much money if the tourneys were opened up. I wish we could get a significant number to commit to trying their tourneys as open to all ratings for a year or more just to see what would happen. Perhaps the reason lower rated players don't want to play against the higher rated is because the system
1) can initially assign player ratings incorrectly and does not have a valid method of rating adjustment, and/or
2) has race length schedules that do not accurately reflect true skill differences.

Have you heard of Bob Jewett's handicap system? It's the fairest one in the land.

Ted Harris
04-10-2003, 08:27 PM
Mike,
I hold the title for the best 7. Heck, when I was there and ranked a 7, I couldn't get the last two from ANYONE!:D :D :D

Rickw
04-11-2003, 09:38 AM
Have you heard of Bob Jewett's handicap system? It's the fairest one in the land. [/B][/QUOTE]

The National Pool League (NPL) right? I've played in it. As a matter of fact, Bob handicapped me. My take on it is, a player can still sandbag the initial rating, but over time, your rating should better reflect your actual ability. It works something like this:

Win a tournament, your rating goes up two points.
Lose your first match and your rating goes down a point or two.

I also think that there should be more involvment by the tournament director, and the director should have the ability to adjust the handicap during the tournament if necessary. I was playing a handicap tournament a while back and the director asked me to handicap a new player. This player made 90 degree cuts, executed excellent safeties and demonstrated a better-than-average ability to kick the ob. I recommended a rating commensurate with what I observed. The director completely discounted my recommendation because he was afraid this player wouldn't want to play with that high of a rating even though several other players agreed with my recommendation. It's my opinion that this is one of the big problems with handicap tournaments. Nothing makes players more disgusted than playing someone whose rating is completely out of whack, especially if it's way too low!

As far as the open tournaments go, I can't understand why a $20 doublie elimination tournament wouldn't work out. Like Jimmy said, most people will spend as much or more in table time for practice. I used to play in one in LA. In addition to the $20 entry, the loser paid for the table time. This gave the room an incentive for having the tournament. Every time I played in it, they had close to the maximum number of players. Some of the best players in Southern Ca used to play in it. Heck, it was worth the $20 just to be able to play some of those gifted players! Most of them wouldn't play you for just $20 outside of the tournament.

Jimmy M.
04-11-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Ted Harris
Mike,
I hold the title for the best 7. Heck, when I was there and ranked a 7, I couldn't get the last two from ANYONE!:D :D :D

You were definitely the best 7 in the valley ;)

AzHousePro
04-11-2003, 12:05 PM
Ted was rated a 7????? Who rated him?

Mike

Tom In Cincy
04-11-2003, 03:55 PM
I must be in Heaven....

There is a tournament every nite of the week here in Cincinnati.

Most of them are on 8 footers. Most of them are $10 with green fees included. Most of them are OPEN.

Sunday tournaments are $15 and played on 9 footers.

One pool hall has 3 tournaments a week.
Most of the others are twice a week.

Formats are DE and its mostly 9 ball TE rules.

Race to 3 or 4 in the weekly tournaments.. and Sundays it s a race to 5.

I must be in Heaven..

Skeezicks
04-11-2003, 05:42 PM
Rickw
The National Pool League (NPL) right? I've played in it. As a matter of fact, Bob handicapped me. My take on it is, a player can still sandbag the initial rating, but over time, your rating should better reflect your actual ability. Of course any system can be sandbagged initially. All leagues rate the same ways to start- who knows this guy, who does he beat, who beats him, how does he shoot, phone calls, skills tests, conversion from other rating systems, etc. But my point was that a fair and effective rating adjustment method is necessary.

Rickw
It works something like this:
Win a tournament, your rating goes up two points.
Lose your first match and your rating goes down a point or two.
The adjustment must also be timely. Many players won't want to stick around if it takes forever for everyone to rise and fall to his proper level. I like to adjust after every set.

I don't know where on the net to point you to this file so I'll copy it here. It has been posted on the net as is for years.

*******************************

The NPL Handicapped Nine Ball System

This system was developed by Bob Jewett and is widely used in the San Fransisco Bay area. Gene Miller is the NPL league operator.

Each player has a rating; better players have higher ratings. Beginners will have ratings around 20, while professional players will have ratings around 100 or higher. Matches are handicapped by requiring the better player to win more games to win the match. The size of the handicap is determined by the difference between the ratings of the players according to the tables below. For example, if a player rated at 55 played someone rated at 25, the difference would be 30 rating points and the regular match length would be six games to three.

The ratings are adjusted after each tournament. For each match a player wins or loses, his rating goes up or down one point. New players are adjusted faster than that, moving three rating points per match for their first ten matches and then two for twenty matches.

Short Match
..(Chart-8)
Rating....Match
..Diff......Games
..0-6........4-4
..7-18......4-3
19-29......5-3
30-39......4-2
40-48......5-2
49-UP......6-2

Regular Match
..(Chart-10)
Rating....Match
..Diff......Games
..0-5........5-5
..6-14......5-4
15-21......6-4
22-28......5-3
29-36......6-3
37-46......7-3
47-56......6-2
57-UP......7-2

Long Match
(Chart-12)
Rating....Match
..Diff......Games
..0-4........6-6
..5-11......6-5
12-17......7-5
18-22......6-4
23-28......7-4
29-35......8-4
36-42......7-3
43-48......8-3
49-58......9-3
59-68......8-2
69-UP......9-2

If the better player is giving up half or more of the match, he has choice on the first break, otherwise lag for first break.

Tables for other length matches are available and may be used.

Optional rules to reduce delay from slow players:

Speedup Rule 1: If both players have ratings under 45, use Chart-8, otherwise use Chart-10.

Speedup Rule 2: If the whole tournament is waiting on one match that hasn't started yet, that match will use Chart-8 instead of Chart-10. Use of this rule is at the tournament director's discretion.

*****************************