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dbhattacharya
03-26-2009, 11:55 AM
Just wondering - whats the guidelines for a player to play in the amateur division?

If a player has played in the Canadian amateur divison 2 consecutive years but has not made the top8 or top16, is he still eligible to play in it the next year?

Thanks.

Jason Robichaud
03-26-2009, 04:30 PM
Just wondering - whats the guidelines for a player to play in the amateur division?

If a player has played in the Canadian amateur divison 2 consecutive years but has not made the top8 or top16, is he still eligible to play in it the next year?

Thanks.


Why not ask Coop. You can play long as you are not a ranked open player. (Canadian Rank not prov.) Does the CBSA not have guidelines posted?

SteveC
03-26-2009, 08:49 PM
Jason - I guess Dev wanted the answer in writing!!! So, here it is.

CBSA guidelines - Any player who finishes in the top 8 is ineligible to play in the amateur division for a 2 year period. But keep in mind that the championships are not direct entry events, meaning that one has to be declared in by their respective Province, or okayed to play by your Association. If you are considered an "open" player in your Province, then they may not accept your amateur entry.

Let's say in NB, there may not be any CBSA guidelines to keep some of the elite players out of the amateur division i.e. Ashley Nowlan, Steph Doiron, Chris Dempsey, etc.... but I doubt the NBBA would enter them to play in the amateur division. None of the ones mentioned finished in the top 8 of the amateur, or top 32 of the open.

CBSA not only has their own guidelines to police the amateur division, but also known ability & Provincial guidelines. So, to make a long story short, Provincial Associations usually do not enter open listed players into the amateur division. So, Dev if you want to play in the amateur division this year, you will have to move from NB to another Province. Then, if they list you as Open, you are in the same boat!!!!

dbhattacharya
03-27-2009, 05:15 AM
Well well well............i can understand the policing part of it to make sure you dont have a Chris Dempsey or a Ashley or a Steph playing in it but having been around the players of your province for this long should give you the insight and tell you that players such as myself, Paul Comeau and a host of others definitely qualify to play for the amateurs!!! so, why be so rigid when you know that since we are eligible to play in the amatuers that you are forcing us to play in the open?

In anycase we can have this conversation some other place i guess.

srs314
03-27-2009, 07:55 AM
Just wanted to comment on this and I will be giving my unbiased personal view on things no matter who agrees or disagrees.

First I want to say that levels, or handicapping is not just a CBSA issue. This comes into play in all sorts of leagues and tournaments.

In this case what you have is a large grey area of players. As we know in pool the top players make up about 3 percent of our players in Canada. I'm sure I could name them all before I got to 16, these I call true Open players and consider them able to win the Open Canadian Championship.

So can we have a small open event and a huge amateur allowing those not in the top 16 to be classed as amateur?

If you let these players into the amateur will you lose some of the lower players that make up the current amateur field becuase they feel they have no chance?

I can see examples in last years Canadian Championship of players forced to move into the Open due to their top 8 finish that belong there and some that aren't really ready yet. You aslo get many players that can't play in the amateur and will not play in the open becuase they feel they are not at the same level and would be giving their entry away.

I think all tours do their best to be fair and the CBSA accomplishes two things with their system.

1. keeping players that are borderline too strong out of the amateur division.
2. Progressing players into the Open Division

The system isn't perfect but it would be impossible to draw an exact line between open and amateur so tours are foced to come up with as fair a system as they can. Handicapping in pool is one of the biggest issues so I'm sure there are many tour or league organizers that have the same difficulty in dividing and ranking players.

And that's my opinion,

JD_Hogg
03-27-2009, 09:48 AM
JMO,

I think the amateur event rankings is unfair to many players. Players are being excluded because they play ‘too good’, in the opinion of a few. These same players being excluded also have little to no chance in finishing top 32 in the open field.

Why should they have to pay $425 to play in the open event if they have zero chance of winning. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to play in the amateur event, an event they have a ‘chance’ of winning.

The amateur event is supposed to be a stepping stone to the Open event. The players finishing top 8 in the amateur event now have zero chance to win in the open. I’d bet high they couldn’t finish top 8 in the open. In a real rankings, if you move from amateur to open, you should be competitive in the open, not just a bye to the real open players.

All that’s being created with this Amateur event is a tourney for 404 handicapped players 7 and under. What about the 8’s and 9’s. Your excluding them because they play good????

So you fill the tourney with 62 7’s and under, then you let 2 8/9’s in to steal the show. That’s fair????

Open it up to players currently not ranked top 32 in Canada, and have an event amateurs can work to compete in. Players who finish top 2 in the amateur go to the Open.

Fair is working hard to improve your game and being rewarded. If you’re a 7-under and want to win the amateur event, get better.

Your assessment of open players is not flawed, its broke.

SteveC
03-27-2009, 09:59 AM
Dev - I do not dispute anything that you just said. But this is an issue for your Province. You should contact your Provincial Assoc. President. But being a NBer, I do know why the NBBA came up with their Open guidelines. At the time they did not want the same 5 or 6 getting the NB amateur spots each year. You know yourself, if you & Belliveau & Vienneau, would have been considered amateur this year, that you 3 probably had a 80% chance of getting three of the spots. Now others have a chance this year. The amateur division was set up so that many different players could get a chance to play each year, not all the borderline players in each Province year after year.

I like what the NBBA did here. People like you can qualify 4 out of every 6 years, or 66%. The other 33%, you must compete with the best in NB & try to get an Open spot. Please try to look at the BIG PICTURE. If you still don't agree, let your feelings known to your Association.

In closing, & to change my hat here again, as National Prez, I wish all Provinces were as structured as ridget as the NBBA, when it comes to the Open / Amateur guidelines. I thought it was great that Arbeau qualified for the amateur last year, & also think it is great that people like Taylor, Peterson, Somerville, LeBlanc, Alden, etc.... will get a chance to qualify this year. Some pretty good players, but trust me, there are a lot of pretty good players in the amateur each year.

Then next year you, Comeau, Campbell, Ruest, etc... will be back in the mix. All positives for the NBBA, in my mind.

dbhattacharya
03-27-2009, 10:01 AM
JMO,

I think the amateur event rankings is unfair to many players. Players are being excluded because they play ‘too good’, in the opinion of a few. These same players being excluded also have little to no chance in finishing top 32 in the open field.

Why should they have to pay $425 to play in the open event if they have zero chance of winning. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to play in the amateur event, an event they have a ‘chance’ of winning.

The amateur event is supposed to be a stepping stone to the Open event. The players finishing top 8 in the amateur event now have zero chance to win in the open. I’d bet high they couldn’t finish top 8 in the open. In a real rankings, if you move from amateur to open, you should be competitive in the open, not just a bye to the real open players.

All that’s being created with this Amateur event is a tourney for 404 handicapped players 7 and under. What about the 8’s and 9’s. Your excluding them because they play good????

So you fill the tourney with 62 7’s and under, then you let 2 8/9’s in to steal the show. That’s fair????

Open it up to players currently not ranked top 32 in Canada, and have an event amateurs can work to compete in. Players who finish top 2 in the amateur go to the Open.

Fair is working hard to improve your game and being rewarded. If you’re a 7-under and want to win the amateur event, get better.

Your assessment of open players is not flawed, its broke.

Top 8? i didnt even finish in the top16, and in my case i cant play in the event just cause I played in the amateurs for 2 consecutive years? now policing or not that doesnt make a lot of sense to put it gently. There is a solid possibility that i would qualify to the amateurs this year as well but instead now i have to qualify to a event which holds little interest for me since i know i am no where close to an open player....i think the CBSA and the various provincial associations need to have a serious rethink on this.

The idea to start the amateurs was fantastic...kudos to them - but they need a re-think on the guidleines as to who can and who cannot play.

dbhattacharya
03-27-2009, 10:07 AM
Dev - I do not dispute anything that you just said. But this is an issue for your Province. You should contact your Provincial Assoc. President. But being a NBer, I do know why the NBBA came up with their Open guidelines. At the time they did not want the same 5 or 6 getting the NB amateur spots each year. You know yourself, if you & Belliveau & Vienneau, would have been considered amateur this year, that you 3 probably had a 80% chance of getting three of the spots. Now others have a chance this year. The amateur division was set up so that many different players could get a chance to play each year, not all the borderline players in each Province year after year.

I like what the NBBA did here. People like you can qualify 4 out of every 6 years, or 66%. The other 33%, you must compete with the best in NB & try to get an Open spot. Please try to look at the BIG PICTURE. If you still don't agree, let your feelings known to your Association.

In closing, & to change my hat here again, as National Prez, I wish all Provinces were as structured as ridget as the NBBA, when it comes to the Open / Amateur guidelines. I thought it was great that Arbeau qualified for the amateur last year, & also think it is great that people like Taylor, Peterson, Somerville, LeBlanc, Alden, etc.... will get a chance to qualify this year. Some pretty good players, but trust me, there are a lot of pretty good players in the amateur each year.

Then next year you, Comeau, Campbell, Ruest, etc... will be back in the mix. All positives for the NBBA, in my mind.


Coop - I understand where you are coming from but the amateur position was not handed to me, i put in a lot of time to get there....when i started playing a few years back in fredericton - i couldnt beat a single player there and now i have come a long ways from then...so saying that its good that new players get to play in it - is all good - but for me i cant see it being fair since i feel the new players need to put in their time and get better and earn their place!!! and if they cant earn their place then they need to practice more since they dont belong there yet - just like i know i dont belong at the open level!!!!

SteveC
03-27-2009, 10:46 AM
As I stated, if you don't agree, take it up with the NBBA.

But you should read your last post. You said something like the "new players should put in their time". Well I mentioned Taylor, Somerville, Peterson, LeBlanc, & Alden. The only one that you put more time in is Alden. They put in their time, sorry boys, but most have reached their peak in cue sports, some are on a down turn. None have played in the amateur as of yet. Shouldn't they have a chance to qualify?

I also think you should have more confidence in your ability. You have beaten most of the top players in NB at least once. Nbers have completed decently in the past few Canadians. Experience hurt some when it gets to crunch time. Maybe you could compete against some in the Open division.

Who knows?

Also, want you to know that it is my last post on this, because I have stated all I can on this topic, so all it can do now is turn into an "argument". I promised myself when I got involved in the Canadian Pool thread, I would not do this. I stated the CBSA's position, & being a past Prez. of NBBA, I also knew their position.

If you feel the NBBA guidelines are broke, petition them. You may be right.

dbhattacharya
03-27-2009, 10:59 AM
As I stated, if you don't agree, take it up with the NBBA.

But you should read your last post. You said something like the "new players should put in their time". Well I mentioned Taylor, Somerville, Peterson, LeBlanc, & Alden. The only one that you put more time in is Alden. They put in their time, sorry boys, but most have reached their peak in cue sports, some are on a down turn. None have played in the amateur as of yet. Shouldn't they have a chance to qualify?

I also think you should have more confidence in your ability. You have beaten most of the top players in NB at least once. Nbers have completed decently in the past few Canadians. Experience hurt some when it gets to crunch time. Maybe you could compete against some in the Open division.

Who knows?

Also, want you to know that it is my last post on this, because I have stated all I can on this topic, so all it can do now is turn into an "argument". I promised myself when I got involved in the Canadian Pool thread, I would not do this. I stated the CBSA's position, & being a past Prez. of NBBA, I also knew their position.

If you feel the NBBA guidelines are broke, petition them. You may be right.

I started a forum on it - as for players like Taylor, Somerville, Peterson, LeBlanc, & Alden ......I dont think any of them qualify as open class players. and I have the utmost respect for the above mentioned players and they all have a great game but I think if they want to they should be allowed to compete in the Amateurs. Sure some of them rather they play in the Open but thats their choice. I have enough confidence in my game but unfortunately i also know my limitations :) and playing a couple of hours a week is not going to help me in the open division :)

Jason Robichaud
03-27-2009, 11:00 AM
Coop - I understand where you are coming from but the amateur position was not handed to me, i put in a lot of time to get there....when i started playing a few years back in fredericton - i couldnt beat a single player there and now i have come a long ways from then...so saying that its good that new players get to play in it - is all good - but for me i cant see it being fair since i feel the new players need to put in their time and get better and earn their place!!! and if they cant earn their place then they need to practice more since they dont belong there yet - just like i know i dont belong at the open level!!!!


I am sure things will improve over time. If you qualify though, what difference does it make, open or amateur division, not outta pocket much and it would be great fun! Go play with the big boys.

xxxbilliards
03-27-2009, 11:49 AM
JMO,

I think the amateur event rankings is unfair to many players. Players are being excluded because they play ‘too good’, in the opinion of a few. These same players being excluded also have little to no chance in finishing top 32 in the open field.

Why should they have to pay $425 to play in the open event if they have zero chance of winning. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to play in the amateur event, an event they have a ‘chance’ of winning.

The amateur event is supposed to be a stepping stone to the Open event. The players finishing top 8 in the amateur event now have zero chance to win in the open. I’d bet high they couldn’t finish top 8 in the open. In a real rankings, if you move from amateur to open, you should be competitive in the open, not just a bye to the real open players.

All that’s being created with this Amateur event is a tourney for 404 handicapped players 7 and under. What about the 8’s and 9’s. Your excluding them because they play good????

So you fill the tourney with 62 7’s and under, then you let 2 8/9’s in to steal the show. That’s fair????

Open it up to players currently not ranked top 32 in Canada, and have an event amateurs can work to compete in. Players who finish top 2 in the amateur go to the Open.

Fair is working hard to improve your game and being rewarded. If you’re a 7-under and want to win the amateur event, get better.

Your assessment of open players is not flawed, its broke.
I for one totally agreed with you, having the experience from lots of tournaments I found your statement right "ON" .
Good luck

JD_Hogg
03-27-2009, 12:01 PM
Since I just ranted in my first post without offering any type of help for the amateurs division here goes.

Open it up to 256
$300 entry fee


Let say you get 200 entrants(which is definitely viable)
That gives you a $60,000 prize pool.

1st
- 2 week all expense trip to the Philippines during World 9 ball championship.
- $5000 cash for gambling while there
- entry + expenses for next years Open Canadians
- trophy + ring

2nd

- -2 week all expense trip to the Philippines during World 9 ball championship.
- $5000 cash for gambling while there.


3rd – 4th

- $3000

5th – 25

- $1000



Top 2 finishers can’t play again the amateur division again. Everyone else is fair game.

srs314
03-27-2009, 05:06 PM
Since I just ranted in my first post without offering any type of help for the amateurs division here goes.

Open it up to 256
$300 entry fee


Let say you get 200 entrants(which is definitely viable)
That gives you a $60,000 prize pool.

1st
- 2 week all expense trip to the Philippines during World 9 ball championship.
- $5000 cash for gambling while there
- entry + expenses for next years Open Canadians
- trophy + ring

2nd

- -2 week all expense trip to the Philippines during World 9 ball championship.
- $5000 cash for gambling while there.


3rd – 4th

- $3000

5th – 25

- $1000



Top 2 finishers can’t play again the amateur division again. Everyone else is fair game.

Sounds like a good idea you have. I would get some friends together that have the same great idea and run it. You do not need CBSA's help to do any of this since the amateur division doens't qualify you for any major events.

By the way you get the nice job of drawing the origonal line of who is allowed to play which should be very easy. Maybe you could use that so called list of the top 32?

Can the 31 & 32 have a valid complaint that the open is too tough for them and they should still be amateur?

I have heard many players that just don't want to play in the open but would like to rob the money in the amateur event make the same complaints.

Just so you know I'm looking at both sides I do feel there could be a system that only invites the top 16 to play in the Open Event and then has the next 16 players outside that list wishing to play have to qualify to make 32. Everyone else would be able to play in the amateur event. However the problem with my idea is there is no fair way or system to select the top 16 so now you run into the same problem of who fits where. Even if you look at our only system that ranked players nationaly which was the Canadian 9-Ball Tour which is prety accurate in my opinion but allows for the players that can afford to travel get a higher ranking due to their total tour points. Also Luc Salvas may not have been in the top 32 on that tour so should we let him play in the amateur?

My point is it is not easy to come up with a system that everbody thinks is fair to them. No matter where or how you draw the Open/Amateur line there will be players that feel they are on the wrong side of it.

In the end this is the CBSA's event that we are talking about, and this is the system they have come up with. Like any handicapping system it's not perfect but they do a good job of keeping players out of the amateur that shouldn't be there. You are correct this does leave a group of players in the middle that will be too good for the amateur but not good enough to be competitive in the open.

I would love to see more national Amateur events or a Canadian Open run like in the format you've suggested by people like you. The only thing that CBSA can offer that you would not be able to is to award spots to play in World events. So get together and setup some events with your own system and let me know so I can promote them!

lee brett
03-31-2009, 06:26 AM
great idea lets get the ball rolling and start your own tournament run how the people want it run, and what prize is on offer