PDA

View Full Version : Another Useful Shot


HereWeGo
05-02-2009, 11:05 AM
Here is another shot that comes up a lot that not many people play. The object ball is being blocked and there are no open banks. So just jump over the other ball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wmg9Iu3F8c This is another shot that is not hard to execute and can get you out of a jam.

mamono
05-02-2009, 01:41 PM
I've never seen that shot in person, it would have come in handy many times in the past! Thanks for sharing!

Bobby
05-02-2009, 01:44 PM
Jimmy Reid teaches that shot on his "No Time For Negative" videos. He even says in the video that he hardly ever sees any pros use that shot.

CreeDo
05-02-2009, 02:00 PM
You get a good camera angle for these things.

I'd love to see someone do the ...I think it's called "coupe fouette" or something. A 90 degree jump shot where the ball bounces up and then glances off the front edge of the jump cue to go forward. It gives the illusion of jumping a ball straight up over another ball that is nearly frozen to it without touching the blocking ball.

You can see it in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWtyPrgn2VA

I'd love to see this with a good camera and in slow motion.

HereWeGo
05-02-2009, 02:08 PM
You get a good camera angle for these things.

I'd love to see someone do the ...I think it's called "coupe fouette" or something. A 90 degree jump shot where the ball bounces up and then glances off the front edge of the jump cue to go forward. It gives the illusion of jumping a ball straight up over another ball that is nearly frozen to it without touching the blocking ball.

You can see it in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWtyPrgn2VA

I'd love to see this with a good camera and in slow motion.


Do you mean the on thats 6 minutes in?

HereWeGo
05-02-2009, 02:15 PM
Not me, but I think this is what your looking for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr8JYyugUWY

CreeDo
05-02-2009, 08:45 PM
Sure enough, there are a few like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXrrN7DB8vQ&feature=related

It got me to thinking... I KNOW this has to be a double hit, but damn... it's so smooth it's impossible to see or hear. It makes you wonder how much of jump shots like this are fouls and at what distance does it become impossible for the CB to avoid getting trapped between the slate and the stick.

I think we need Dr. Dave to show this with his super high speed cam.

On an unrelated note... your air bank shot came up tonight when I was stumped on my 8 ball :D It was a tough situation too, the 8 was over a diamond away from the rail and the impeding ball about 3/4 diamond away. I jacked up about 20 degrees... fired hard into the 8... and jumped it right off the table and lost the game!!! lol

But I look forward to trying it again. I didn't expect it to be so easy to get so much air with the 8.

sk8ordie
05-02-2009, 09:48 PM
Here is another shot that comes up a lot that not many people play. The object ball is being blocked and there are no open banks. So just jump over the other ball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wmg9Iu3F8c This is another shot that is not hard to execute and can get you out of a jam.

I've been doing trick shots for years. I've been showing people the rail jump for a long time because it is a great shot with the cue ball jumping or the OB jumping off the rail. This shot is new to me and it looks great, I can't wait to get to the poolhall and try it tomorrow. There is a trick shot where the 8 ball is trapped in the wooden rack and you jump the cue ball into it to make it escape the rack and pockets in the corner, is it the same concept? Thanks for the great shot and video...Ron

HereWeGo
05-02-2009, 09:59 PM
Yup. It is the same as the ball out of the rack shot. Glad you like it.

dr_dave
05-03-2009, 02:01 PM
Sure enough, there are a few like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXrrN7DB8vQ&feature=related

It got me to thinking... I KNOW this has to be a double hit, but damn... it's so smooth it's impossible to see or hear. It makes you wonder how much of jump shots like this are fouls and at what distance does it become impossible for the CB to avoid getting trapped between the slate and the stick.

I think we need Dr. Dave to show this with his super high speed cam.The best I have on this topic is here:

HSV B.19 - highly elevated cue jump shots (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-19.htm)

Check it out,
Dave

CreeDo
05-04-2009, 09:57 AM
Dave comes through again :) Thanks for that clip, that's exactly what I was looking for.

To me, it's pretty clear that the shaft grazes the ball as it rises (barely) in that video. But without the benefit of the video I'd probably call it a good hit. It's true the stick bends out of the way of the ball, but then when it bends back into place it seems to be tapping it gently.

I guess the bend factor makes it even more difficult to judge the double hit.

I'm almost inclined to say screw it.. if a player can jump 80 degrees and make the intended ball, he deserves it. On the other hand I might change my tune if it's clear this will be a double hit (like an 89 degree jump) and he's on a gamewinning hanger for cash.

dr_dave
05-04-2009, 10:08 AM
Dave comes through again :) Thanks for that clip, that's exactly what I was looking for.I aim to squerve.

To me, it's pretty clear that the shaft grazes the ball as it rises (barely) in that video. But without the benefit of the video I'd probably call it a good hit. It's true the stick bends out of the way of the ball, but then when it bends back into place it seems to be tapping it gently.

I guess the bend factor makes it even more difficult to judge the double hit.

I'm almost inclined to say screw it.. if a player can jump 80 degrees and make the intended ball, he deserves it. On the other hand I might change my tune if it's clear this will be a double hit (like an 89 degree jump) and he's on a gamewinning hanger for cash.I agree. Highly elevated jump shots are allowed, unless a double hit is obvious visually (without a high-speed video camera).

This is sort of like unintentional miscues. They are allowed even though a miscue usually involves a double hit. The illegal "scoop" jump shot is a counter example ... it can be executed with a single hit, but it is always a foul (if intentional).

FYI, more info on all of these topics can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html

Regards,
Dave

CreeDo
05-04-2009, 11:27 PM
Dave, do you have an educated guess on what angle becomes really iffy for double hits on jumps?

I was thinking, we don't need a high speed camera or some way to measure the stick angle. If someone wanted to make a rule about potentially double-hitting jumps... you can just come up with minimum distance between cue ball and impeding ball. Like, "no jumps closer than 2 inches" or whatever. There just needs to be some educated math behind calculating that minimum distance. It's sort of like the solution we have in our local league for determining a push foul. If the balls are less than a ball apart you can't aim directly into it, and if you shoot jacked up the OB can't travel more than 1 ball's distance forward before drawing back.

macguy
05-04-2009, 11:43 PM
I've been doing trick shots for years. I've been showing people the rail jump for a long time because it is a great shot with the cue ball jumping or the OB jumping off the rail. This shot is new to me and it looks great, I can't wait to get to the poolhall and try it tomorrow. There is a trick shot where the 8 ball is trapped in the wooden rack and you jump the cue ball into it to make it escape the rack and pockets in the corner, is it the same concept? Thanks for the great shot and video...Ron
That is not new. It is the same as the shot where you put the object ball inside the rack and jump it out into the pocket. The rack shot is impressive. The people stand there wondering what the heck they just saw.

dr_dave
05-05-2009, 08:03 AM
Dave, do you have an educated guess on what angle becomes really iffy for double hits on jumps?

I was thinking, we don't need a high speed camera or some way to measure the stick angle. If someone wanted to make a rule about potentially double-hitting jumps... you can just come up with minimum distance between cue ball and impeding ball. Like, "no jumps closer than 2 inches" or whatever. There just needs to be some educated math behind calculating that minimum distance.I don't think such a rule is necessary. If somebody can execute a highly elevated jump over a very close obstacle ball, I think they should be allowed to do it. These shots are not easy. Also, as my video shows and describes, high elevation doesn't necessarily result in a double hit.

It's sort of like the solution we have in our local league for determining a push foul. If the balls are less than a ball apart you can't aim directly into it, and if you shoot jacked up the OB can't travel more than 1 ball's distance forward before drawing back.I hate "rules" like this because I see people abuse them and incorrectly apply them often. For example, I've seen people do an intentional double hit while satisfying a bogus rule (e.g., the 45-degree-angle rule in VNEA when there is a small gap between the CB and OB). If there is an obvious double hit on a shot, the shot should be a foul. If the double hit is not obvious, the shot should be legal. Also, with jacked up shots, the CB can easily travel forward more than 1-ball's distance with a legal hit. For more info, see the videos linked here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-05-2009, 08:06 AM
... There is a trick shot where the 8 ball is trapped in the wooden rack and you jump the cue ball into it to make it escape the rack and pockets in the corner, is it the same concept?...This is an OB jump shot. For a demonstration and explanation, see:

HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm)

Regards,
Dave

breakshot
05-05-2009, 08:31 AM
The best I have on this topic is here:

HSV B.19 - highly elevated cue jump shots (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-19.htm)

Check it out,
Dave

Dave ,
In this video, you are driving through the cue ball, the person shooting is holding the cue very tightly with their back hand.-- the balls react very differently when you shoot like this, also you have the extra piece of cloth which changes things also.

little info-if you hold the back of the cue very lightly and actually throw the cue like a dart ( if the jump cue is weighted properly and with the correct tip )- the cue will "jump" off of the cue ball before the cueball starts to rise. I've done this many times- it's actually very easy once you get the hang of it.

Craig

dr_dave
05-05-2009, 08:39 AM
Dave ,
In this video, you are driving through the cue ball, the person shooting is holding the cue very tightly with their back hand.-- the balls react very differently when you shoot like this, also you have the extra piece of cloth which changes things also.

little info-if you hold the back of the cue very lightly and actually throw the cue like a dart ( if the jump cue is weighted properly and with the correct tip )- the cue will "jump" off of the cue ball before the cueball starts to rise. I've done this many times- it's actually very easy once you get the hang of it.

CraigTom Ross was doing the shooting in this video. I thought he had a fairly relaxed grip, but I don't remember. Next time I film with the high-speed camera, I'll be sure to try some light-grip, highly-elevated. dart-stroke jumps. I'll be sure to capture both regular and super-slow motion footage of both the grip and the action of the tip.

Thanks,
Dave

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 09:20 AM
Dr. Dave:
...with jacked up shots, the CB can easily travel forward more than 1-ball's distance with a legal hit.

This surprises me. Do you have a video showing this?

pj
chgo

Neil
05-05-2009, 09:34 AM
..............

dr_dave
05-05-2009, 09:45 AM
This surprises me. Do you have a video showing this?I think the best example I have is here (starting at 1:15):

HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-6.htm)

Another example can be found in "Part 2 - small gap between the CB and OB" (starting at 6:29) here:

NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-63.htm)

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-05-2009, 09:49 AM
And herein lies one of my pet peeves with pool. Too many don't want to take the time to educate themselves on what constitutes a good and a bad hit, so they make up their own rules.:( And, by doing so, they limit the possibilities of what they actually can do.Well stated. I agree 100%. This is one reason Bob and I shot all of the clips for the "referee quiz" (NV B.61 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm)) and the "foul category instructional videos" (NV B.63 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-63.htm)). I think a lot of people would be better at recognizing foul and fair hits if they were to watch these videos.

Regards,
Dave

sph3ric pyramid
05-05-2009, 10:25 AM
Reading the thread reminded me of this rack (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-900686324236628058&ei=u3MASrX_EYb2-AbWzvmNBw&q=luc+salvas), Luc Salvas jumps the 4 over the 8 while still running out in like 50 seconds.

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 11:02 AM
I think the best example [of a jacked up close hit legally going forward] I have is here (starting at 1:15):

HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-6.htm)

Another example can be found in "Part 2 - small gap between the CB and OB" (starting at 6:29) here:

NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-63.htm)

Regards,
Dave

Oh, right - when the CB clearly jumps. Do you think it's possible for the CB to legally go forward on a jacked up close hit without jumping much? I can't imagine how. In fact, the cue ball not jumping may be another indication of a double hit.

pj
chgo

dr_dave
05-06-2009, 08:30 AM
Oh, right - when the CB clearly jumps. Do you think it's possible for the CB to legally go forward on a jacked up close hit without jumping much? I can't imagine how.As you know, a heavier CB (e.g., on some bar boxes) will tend to go forward a little, but not as much as with an above-the-OB-equator hit that usually occurs with a jacked up shot.

In fact, the cue ball not jumping may be another indication of a double hit.Good point.

Regards,
Dave

CreeDo
05-06-2009, 11:51 PM
I get the thinking that those vnea rules of thumb have holes and leave room for abuse, but I sincerely believe that without them, there will be even more abuse than there is now. It's easy to say "just let everyone get more education on what a double hit looks like"... the problem isn't just education but honesty. The rules force players to be honest in a lot of situations where they'd otherwise try to get away with murder.

No rule for this stuff will be perfect, but if it clears up..I dunno... 80% of the fouls or so, I'd call that progress.

After some thinking, I gotta disagree on allowing the close-up jump shots. Your video showed the most borderline double-hitting example possible, so jumps at that distance can maybe be forgiven if it's too close to call... but when guys jump nearly frozen balls they are breaking the rules to accomplish something that is not normally possible. I shaft will bend only so much before it's clearly got to be helping the cue ball go forward and clear the OB.

There are a few rare cases where intentional fouls can help make an impossible shot possible (like a super fast double hit to shove an OB into the side when it's barely blocked by the nipple). The big difference here is that these 80 degree+ jump shots look ok 'visually', making them very hard to detect and call compared to the more blatant push fouls. But it's still getting away with something. I'm not even convinced it's all that difficult. It's just rarely practiced.

dr_dave
05-07-2009, 09:59 AM
I get the thinking that those vnea rules of thumb have holes and leave room for abuse, but I sincerely believe that without them, there will be even more abuse than there is now. It's easy to say "just let everyone get more education on what a double hit looks like"... the problem isn't just education but honesty. The rules force players to be honest in a lot of situations where they'd otherwise try to get away with murder.

No rule for this stuff will be perfect, but if it clears up..I dunno... 80% of the fouls or so, I'd call that progress.

After some thinking, I gotta disagree on allowing the close-up jump shots. Your video showed the most borderline double-hitting example possible, so jumps at that distance can maybe be forgiven if it's too close to call... but when guys jump nearly frozen balls they are breaking the rules to accomplish something that is not normally possible. I shaft will bend only so much before it's clearly got to be helping the cue ball go forward and clear the OB.

There are a few rare cases where intentional fouls can help make an impossible shot possible (like a super fast double hit to shove an OB into the side when it's barely blocked by the nipple). The big difference here is that these 80 degree+ jump shots look ok 'visually', making them very hard to detect and call compared to the more blatant push fouls. But it's still getting away with something. I'm not even convinced it's all that difficult. It's just rarely practiced.
Nice post. You make some good points.

Regards,
Dave