PDA

View Full Version : What is more important when buying Cues and Cases who built it or who signed it!!!


manwon
05-02-2009, 11:35 AM
Hello Az, what is more important who made a product or which shop it came from and who signed it. Is it important when spending hundreds of dollars that the actually craftsman who signed the cue or case actually built it. For instance, if you ordered a cue from a famous Cue maker or Case maker would it matter to you that his apprentise actually made your Cue or Case? This has happened to members on the forum, they have paid three figures and later found out that the item was made by an apprentise. Are you really getting what you paid for, or is the item less meaningful or even less valuable? In the same thought, is their a differance between items made by multiple people and items made by a single person?

To me if I buy something from an indiviual I am buying it because I like that persons Craftsmanship, and I want thier hands to build my purchase, is this unreasonable?

Please post your thoughts on this subject!!!!

Thanks Craig

DogsPlayingPool
05-02-2009, 11:49 AM
So far the only customs I've bought are Ginacues and Ernie has no apprentices so it is not an issue. Every cue out of his shop is made by him 100% from start to finish.

But I don't think you are unreasonable. However, if you are dealing with a maker that is known to have others working for him it stands to reason that he is not doing all the work unless he is paying the other guys to stand around and watch.

As far as value goes some of the dealers will hopefully post up and shed some expertise on this but when I look through the for sale stuff on AZB I don't really hear many people inquiring about whether a particular brand of cue that is for sale was actually made by the "main man" or by one of the hired help. So I would suggest that if it came out of his shop and he has signed it that is more or less good enough. It may be that a maker's older work, when he was on his own, may have more value because of the fact the he himself built it.

Good question.

The Renfro
05-02-2009, 12:33 PM
The basic issue is if the craftsman doesn't publicly let you know you are buying an apprenticed cue or attempts to get full value out of the item as if they had made the item by their own hand.

The best example of this would be the DPs on ebay. I have seen several of the apprenticed cues and can tell you all of their owners were extremely pleased with their purchases. What the signature on these cues mean to me is that I know that the craftsman's knowledge, design and tools were used in the manufacture of the cue. While his hands didn't actually do the manufacturing he is attesting to the tolerances and guaranteeing that the quality of the item is what he feels is upto his standards.

One could argue that apprenticed cues are in essence no different than production cues but in true apprentice programs the attention to detail and the element of hand craftsmanship should provide a product that is high quality and still has the elements of a custom cue in that the designs and wood selections will help to insure that your cue will be somewhat unique or at least 1 of a small number and will have it's own character.

For someone on a budget the apprentice model is perfect. Just my $.02

CreeDo
05-02-2009, 01:36 PM
I get what you're saying manwon, I really do... you want the master's touch on your product, because he has a known track record for excellence and you can be assured you're getting the amount of care put into your cue/case that he's known for.

But, honestly, I can't get over how people worry about their cue (or case)...
What is MOST important is the guy shooting with the cue. You aren't going to miss any balls just because the apprentice put 2% less love and patience into building your cue. You sure as heck won't miss a ball because of the case lol... it just needs to look good and not fall apart.

manwon
05-02-2009, 03:44 PM
I get what you're saying manwon, I really do... you want the master's touch on your product, because he has a known track record for excellence and you can be assured you're getting the amount of care put into your cue/case that he's known for.

But, honestly, I can't get over how people worry about their cue (or case)...
What is MOST important is the guy shooting with the cue. You aren't going to miss any balls just because the apprentice put 2% less love and patience into building your cue. You sure as heck won't miss a ball because of the case lol... it just needs to look good and not fall apart.

You aren't going to miss any balls just because the apprentice put 2% less love and patience into building your cue. You sure as heck won't miss a ball because of the case lol... it just needs to look good and not fall apart.[/

I agree that it is the person using it that will determine how well it will play. But, the question is are you getting what you have paid for. If you only care about playability it may not matter all, but if you are a collector you want something made by the Masters hands it makes a world of difference. Also should the work of an apprentice cost the same as the work of a master, again I have to say I do not think so. I mean is the name apprentice says it all, and just like an apprentice in any other field they are not paid the same for the work completed. For those who think that the Craftsman most likely checks the cue or case in all steps of building you may want to think about that again. While I agree that the shop or the Craftsman is ultimately responsible for the finished product, however, if he did not build it, is it deceptive that he signs it?

In my opinion there is a very fine line between Custom and Production. Many custom cue makers of Yesteryear have operations today that are not truly custom operations any longer because of the number of people who build any given cue or case. Then when the Craftsman come to the point were they no longer build anything only supervise, but sign the products being produced how can they continue to call the work Custom or even truly theirs.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks for everyone responses so far.:)

Rich93
05-02-2009, 04:22 PM
If the man himself lays out the procedures, tolerances, quality standards, etc., oversees the operation from start to finish and closely inspects the product before shipment, then I would have no problem knowing that apprentices did the work. The maker of my cue, Ray Schuler, worked that way. Jim Murnak has openly said that his "ready to ship" cases are made by his employees but supervised by him. If a firm wants to grow that's what has to be done. In fact, if they really want to grow, eventually the hands-on supervision is delegated also.

But I hear what you're saying. It's kind of nice to know that my Justis case was made by Jack in his garage. But if I learned that his daughter had helped him, that would be OK too.

In the end, it's the final product that counts.

muttley76
05-02-2009, 04:37 PM
As long as there is full disclosure, I am more than likely going to be ok with the name not doing all the work. I would have slight issues if said person does none of the work, and I would have HUGE issues if I only found out later that an apprentice had made it. I am personally more interested, and concerned with, how the cue plays. I don't buy cues for their resale value. But others do. And as far as that goes, the sig is probably the most important thing. I think it is fine to have and use underlings:p, just make it clear to the paying customer. If I was going to shell out, say, 3k for a cue, I would want to know who made it, even though it would likely have no bearing on whether or not I wanted the cue. It is more about trust, I guess.

Getnbzy
05-02-2009, 05:14 PM
My TAD was made in the Mid 80's and at that time i am almost certain that TAD himself had his hand in the majority of my cue's construction. Today i also believe that fred does most if not all of the construction of TAD cues. So with that being said if someone were contemplating buying a TAD today would that matter? In other words would they want an older 1 made by the master instead of a new (newer) one built by the student? I will still call the cues being made today a TAD even if others might call them a FRED instead. :p

CreeDo
05-02-2009, 05:19 PM
Manwon, I see it a little better now. I am such a strong advocate of "it's the indian not the arrow" that sometimes I forget people want a cue for something OTHER than playability. I can accept that cues can be works of art and someone may not even hit a ball with it.

Like Muttley said, full disclosure is important. If someone IMPLIES a cue is made by certain maker, then it absolutely has to be made by that person. It's fraud otherwise.
If it might be made by an apprentice then they have to say so, and it has to be very clear (not in the fine print).

Signature is a little debatable... I guess it depends on whether people subconsciously assume a signed piece is made by the actual signer. A buyer should not be duped into thinking buying a "signature" cue means the master is making it... if there's a chance that's not true. Certainly that's the case with a painting.

I see signature is sort of like a brand name. If I want such-and-such's pretty design and I won't be hitting a ball with it, then I won't mind if he signs an apprentice's work... I see it as the master's design and choice of materials, just someone else's labor. The signature here is more a statement of who's responsible for the look rather than who's responsible for the hit (or labor).

Pricing is up to them, that's the beauty of capitalism. If they want to charge full price for work made by an apprentice, that's their right, but see if I haul out my wallet to get a lesser product for full price. Getting it made by the master should be an option that you can pay extra for, that makes more sense than everything priced the same, but some are made by the master and some aren't.

JesPiddlin
05-02-2009, 05:35 PM
I think this is a very good question.

I agree that, if a cuemaker oversees the construction of a cue that comes from his shop, his signature represents his assurance that the work is up to his standard and should be given the same respect as his cues.... HOWEVER.... If the actual cuemaker did not build the cue and the apprentice does not have some sort of mark or identifying detail on it, how is anyone to know who the true cuemaker is for that cue? To me, that would devalue one's cues, because it is not clear who actually built the cue.

I believe the builder of the cue should sign it or have some sort of identifying mark that is publicly known, so buyers can one day identify early cues built by someone now famous, or who faded away.

A Crown Cue always has at least one crown built into and is always signed by the builder, except some of the early cues and also if a customer requests no signature on a custom order. There are 2 cuemakers in the family. Only 3 cues were built by the son and his mark/signature is on each of those 3 cues, plus, his name is listed as the actual maker on the certificates. The only reason he stopped at 3, is because he joined the military shortly after he began building cues.

Anyway, with a Crown Cue, you can rest assured that the actual maker of a cue will be signing that cue and his name will be listed on the accompanying certificate.

I generally buy a cue for the way it looks and feels. If I am buying something for the name, I want to know my money is buying work that is actually done by the person with that name.

There is a fine, often muddied line between what is considered custom and production. I believe custom should have some sort of standard to go by, but there will always be an exception to the rule. Buyers just have to make sure they are educated about the cues they are after.

ShootingArts
05-02-2009, 05:36 PM
Craig,

If I am paying a premium for one man's name then I expect him to build what I am purchasing, definitely all of the critical work. Sometimes I do know that the work is coming out of a very good small shop and every piece every step of the way will be done by a master craftsman or checked over by one. If I know that going into the deal I am fine with that. I am buying the shop's reputation, not just one man's.

However, when we get far away from the above, we are buying a production item in my opinion. It may be a small production shop or a large one but when you have grunts doing more than grunt work then I had just as soon go buy from a factory and get a written guarantee.

I knew a man who made perfect knives. Nothing less. An apprentice could cut the blank out and maybe rough a few things but nothing else was going to be done by an apprentice. Plus the maker was going to inspect every piece every step of the way even after he did it himself. The result was absolute perfection. Anything less hit the cull pile. I'd be an unhappy camper to buy a knife with his name on the blade and find out that he personally didn't build it.

Hu

Hello Az, what is more important who made a product or which shop it came from and who signed it. Is it important when spending hundreds of dollars that the actually craftsman who signed the cue or case actually built it. For instance, if you ordered a cue from a famous Cue maker or Case maker would it matter to you that his apprentise actually made your Cue or Case? This has happened to members on the forum, they have paid three figures and later found out that the item was made by an apprentise. Are you really getting what you paid for, or is the item less meaningful or even less valuable? In the same thought, is their a differance between items made by multiple people and items made by a single person?

To me if I buy something from an indiviual I am buying it because I like that persons Craftsmanship, and I want thier hands to build my purchase, is this unreasonable?

Please post your thoughts on this subject!!!!

Thanks Craig

Moon Cricket
05-02-2009, 05:48 PM
Hi

as long as i like it, then it doesn't matter. no need to sign it either.

manwon
05-02-2009, 08:13 PM
I think this is a very good question.

I agree that, if a cuemaker oversees the construction of a cue that comes from his shop, his signature represents his assurance that the work is up to his standard and should be given the same respect as his cues.... HOWEVER.... If the actual cuemaker did not build the cue and the apprentice does not have some sort of mark or identifying detail on it, how is anyone to know who the true cuemaker is for that cue? To me, that would devalue one's cues, because it is not clear who actually built the cue.

I believe the builder of the cue should sign it or have some sort of identifying mark that is publicly known, so buyers can one day identify early cues built by someone now famous, or who faded away.

A Crown Cue always has at least one crown built into and is always signed by the builder, except some of the early cues and also if a customer requests no signature on a custom order. There are 2 cuemakers in the family. Only 3 cues were built by the son and his mark/signature is on each of those 3 cues, plus, his name is listed as the actual maker on the certificates. The only reason he stopped at 3, is because he joined the military shortly after he began building cues.

Anyway, with a Crown Cue, you can rest assured that the actual maker of a cue will be signing that cue and his name will be listed on the accompanying certificate.

I generally buy a cue for the way it looks and feels. If I am buying something for the name, I want to know my money is buying work that is actually done by the person with that name.

There is a fine, often muddied line between what is considered custom and production. I believe custom should have some sort of standard to go by, but there will always be an exception to the rule. Buyers just have to make sure they are educated about the cues they are after.



I believe the builder of the cue should sign it or have some sort of identifying mark that is publicly known, so buyers can one day identify early cues built by someone now famous, or who faded away.


I totally agree with you here, but in far to many cases it is not happening. There are too many cases that have been brought up right here on the forum that clearly show us that this is still happening even om high end items. I am not bringing this up to Flame anyone, only to get the opinion of others to see if I am the only who feels this way, because this is an issue that really bothers me.

The same thing happens with cue cases many times apprentices build the cases and one individual offers them as Custom cases, however, the individual who's name is on the cases doesn't build any of them himself. They are made by a number of people in a factory setting, that is tooled for this purpose specifically. Now many of the case makers today are doing business in this manner, and they are up front about what they are doing which in my opinion is the right way to do business. Most of the cases being produced in this manner also reflect that they are made in this manner by their price tag, however, not all of them.

For me when I spend $700 plus for a cue case it had better be a Custom Case that is tooled and completely made by the Case Maker in question. While quality can be accomplished just as well by a number of hands as it can be by a single pair of hands, I think a craftsman's unique touch is what it takes to make something truly custom. In my opinion if they are made any other way they are nothing more than production one of a kind items and they should be represented as such.

In my opinion if individual Cue or Case makers want to compete with each other they need to build the products that are going to be used as a representation of their work or for raising the so called bar themselves . Design is one thing, and assembly and craftsmanship are another and I find it hard for some one to expect to compete when their hands are not dirty!!!!!:)

Just my thoughts

JB Cases
05-02-2009, 09:11 PM
Well Craig, since I am the person you want to FLAME with this latest "poll" let's get it out on the table then.

Wow, you really can't stand it can you?

First off let's let everyone know what the trigger is for this latest opinion poll and thanks for the opportunity to show it off in the main forum.

This is the case that Craig is talking about and here is the thread. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1799685#post1799685

http://www.jbcases.com/cases/palacegarden/azpix-small/palacegarden002.jpg
http://www.jbcases.com/cases/palacegarden/azpix-small/palacegarden003.jpg

And this is the signature that Craig is so upset about.

http://www.jbcases.com/cases/palacegarden/azpix-small/palacegarden026.JPG

And these are ALL the people who built this ONE OF A KIND ABSOLUTELY CUSTOM CASE

http://www.jbcases.com/cases/palacegarden/azpix-small/palacegarden099.jpg

And this is what I told Craig in our private discussion about this subject;

"As for signing it? This case would not exist if I did not "build" it. Without me the people in the picture are a a random bunch of people whose hands would be doing something else and would never ever put a case like this together. If you put my customer and these people together without my guidance and design then no product that is anywhere close to this would result.

Who gets the credit for a building? The architect, not the construction crew. It's the architect that takes pile of rocks and group of laborers and makes a beautiful thing."

And this is how I see the subject from my perspective and based on my own career only:

When something is made it is a product first of the imagination and secondly of the labor. The driving force behind any type of thing is the thought that devises a way to make it and the willpower to get it done. Not every person has all the skills they need to build the things that they can imagine but without the creation of things in the mind first nothing would progress.

Stephen Covey says, "everything is created twice, first in the mind and then in reality".

For me, I can build things, I can sew, I can tool, I can dye, I can do all the tasks one needs to be able to do to build cue cases or any type of case really. But the one thing that I really do well is create new ways to build cases. Because of that I do not have the patience or desire to do the "grunt" work if you want to call it that when I could be working something new and innovative. So I hire and train people to do that work for me and tell them EXACTLY how I want it. They don't come off the street as "expert cue case makers". They come to me either with no skills at all other than a desire to learn OR they have skill sets I hire for like knowing how to sew or knowing how to tool leather. Once they are in my shop I hone their skill to a high degree because I will accept nothing less than the best from them.

I literally invent new ways to do things and teach them these techniques. I create jigs and templates to insure that repetitive tasks are done accurately and well.

My staff IS the extension of my brain and they do what I want them to and create what I design. As such every case that comes out of MY shop, where I own every piece of equipment and where the people who work for me do it MY way bears MY signature. Because without ME there would be no JB Case and nothing to sign.

So that's how I see it. I chose deliberately to build my shop the way I have because this is how I want to create cue cases. Other people are one man bands and they also make beautiful music. At the end of the day the art stands or falls on it's own no matter what signatures are on it.

For the record though Craig, my toolers who do custom work sign their work. IF my work ever became collectible then there is a record on each piece of who did the tooling. If the tooling is repeated pattern work then it is unsigned.

This is signed by the tooler:
www.jbcases.com/hotrod.html - and NOT by me as I was gone when it was made and actually the design was done by my wife and our staff.
http://www.jbcases.com/pic/hotrod/DSC03472.jpg

I for one have ALWAYS been up front about how our cases are created and what our processes are.

My thoughts as it relates to OTHER people's work are this:

If I buy something based on the reputation of the NAME on it then I expect it to contain ALL the quality that the name represents. I don't care if it was made by the person who's NAME is on it or made by 50 people he never met. I am ONLY purchasing it because of the reputation the NAME has earned.

If am purchasing something based on the QUALITY of the work and I KNOW that there is a clear difference between the quality of one person's work vs. another then I want the better one to make my thing.

Nothing in this world is created from scratch without help from others.

Craig, we had this discussion in private but I will conclude with another point. The case maker you use as a counter point here, Rusty, used a Chan Geer pattern on one of his masterpieces. Rusty builds a FANTASTIC CASE, he does all or most of the work by himself. But the foundation for at least one of the cases was Master Leather Worker Chan Geer's pattern. So you can see that everyone at some point gets help in some way or another with the things they create.

Rich93
05-02-2009, 09:38 PM
Geez, how can anyone top that? Mindblowing case, John.

nasc
05-02-2009, 09:59 PM
Hey John,
Nice case but I don't care for the flowers.

Glen

softshot
05-02-2009, 10:17 PM
doing something so well that you have more orders than you can produce....to the point where you need help to fill orders....

that's called a blossoming business..

maintaining the quality that blossomed your business...

That's called being successful...

McDermott for example... they still turn and cure shafts the same way they did when it wasn't "they" back to when it was "him" and quite frankly the method WORKS it produces quality warp resistant shafts.. the wood to wood big pin joint is still there.. they back it up... and do what they claim to do..

it's not custom anymore.. and they are not signed anymore

but they ARE built right and they DO maintain the quality..

they are a successful cue company..

I have dealt with enough collectors.. to know that collectors are never satisfied

they need that one little detail to slightly out jump one another..

My "private limited exclusive brand name" is just a little better than yours because I got it just a touch farther up the food chain than you did
SO THERE!!!!

how far back do we want to go??

the tree that grew my maple had more leaves than the one yours was made from.....

it has to end somewhere right??

JB Cases
05-02-2009, 10:17 PM
You aren't going to miss any balls just because the apprentice put 2% less love and patience into building your cue. You sure as heck won't miss a ball because of the case lol... it just needs to look good and not fall apart.[/

I agree that it is the person using it that will determine how well it will play. But, the question is are you getting what you have paid for. If you only care about playability it may not matter all, but if you are a collector you want something made by the Masters hands it makes a world of difference. Also should the work of an apprentice cost the same as the work of a master, again I have to say I do not think so. I mean is the name apprentice says it all, and just like an apprentice in any other field they are not paid the same for the work completed. For those who think that the Craftsman most likely checks the cue or case in all steps of building you may want to think about that again. While I agree that the shop or the Craftsman is ultimately responsible for the finished product, however, if he did not build it, is it deceptive that he signs it?

In my opinion there is a very fine line between Custom and Production. Many custom cue makers of Yesteryear have operations today that are not truly custom operations any longer because of the number of people who build any given cue or case. Then when the Craftsman come to the point were they no longer build anything only supervise, but sign the products being produced how can they continue to call the work Custom or even truly theirs.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks for everyone responses so far.:)


Well what is that you "think" you are paying for? Value is always subjective in these situations. The "worth" you assign to something might not be the same that someone else assigns to it.

The other issue where you are mixing concepts is "custom". Custom is not related to how many people work on something. Custom means made to the specifications of the customer.

If you look at Ernie Gutierez's (sp) - Ginacue's shop you will see a shop that is in fact a cue factory and Ernie is quite proud of the fact that he has made all the machines himself to automate almost every process. It is a one man cue making facility because Ernie chooses it to be that way but it is a "factory" none the less. In fact one could very well make the case that the "art" of making cues is in essence the ability to make an instrument over and over that is highly consistent in it's performance.

So in that case "custom" only applies to the decoration in the cue as to what the customer can choose to have done.

If I call Viking and order a cue with all my decorative choices and they build it then it is every bit as much of a "custom" cue as any Ginacue is. Will it have the same value? No because the market places a much higher value on the rarity of Ginacues vs. the bountiful abundance of Viking cues.

I really truly HATE to use this word to describe a person but in fact an apprentice or worker is a tool that the designer/maker uses to produce the work that will bear his name. There is NO NEED for makers to disclose ANYTHING related to WHO did what work on a cue or a case because as long as it bears the name of the maker it should stand up to the quality that the name has earned a reputation for.

I do however feel that a person who is contemplating the purchase of a custom anything should investigate who they want to do the work and do whatever it takes to feel secure in their choice.

JB Cases
05-02-2009, 10:21 PM
Hey John,
Nice case but I don't care for the flowers.

Glen

Thanks Glen. You will have to take it up with the owner about the flowers, they were his choice. You would not believe the next concept he has for a case - philosophically a completely other direction. I can't discuss it specifically but it should be something way out there as well.

JB Cases
05-02-2009, 11:27 PM
The same thing happens with cue cases many times apprentices build the cases and one individual offers them as Custom cases, however, the individual who's name is on the cases doesn't build any of them himself. They are made by a number of people in a factory setting, that is tooled for this purpose specifically. Now many of the case makers today are doing business in this manner, and they are up front about what they are doing which in my opinion is the right way to do business. Most of the cases being produced in this manner also reflect that they are made in this manner by their price tag, however, not all of them.

For me when I spend $700 plus for a cue case it had better be a Custom Case that is tooled and completely made by the Case Maker in question. While quality can be accomplished just as well by a number of hands as it can be by a single pair of hands, I think a craftsman's unique touch is what it takes to make something truly custom. In my opinion if they are made any other way they are nothing more than production one of a kind items and they should be represented as such.

In my opinion if individual Cue or Case makers want to compete with each other they need to build the products that are going to be used as a representation of their work or for raising the so called bar themselves . Design is one thing, and assembly and craftsmanship are another and I find it hard for some one to expect to compete when their hands are not dirty!!!!!:)

Just my thoughts

You make a lot of assumptions here. Let's start with the last one, the one about the designer not getting their hands dirty;

Do you really know ANYTHING about how this works in real life Craig? Do you think that the designer sits in an office and sends off sketches and magically products just appear?

Do you have any CLUE at all what it takes to create something of substance and how much WORK is involved by everyone in the process?

Let's continue to use MY latest case as an example and I will run it down for you;

First the customer contacts me with his concept. We discuss it and I provide sketches and mockups that I do. This goes back and forth until we settle on a basic design - in this case that means about 20ish emails back and forth and four or five drafts on the concept.

Then I have the tooler do a rough sketch of the tooling pattern to go on the case and with him I work on that until I feel it's good to present to the customer - in this case that worked out to about three revisions BEFORE I sent it to the customer.

After the customer sees it we make any changes that they want to see. In this particular instance that equated to many changes throughout the process. I am the conduit for any and all changes - tack on another 20ish emails back and forth.

I designed the way the case would be constructed, if you know anything AT ALL about case construction then you will recognize how hard it is to build a case the way we did here. So this meant that I had to work out the methods and prototype them BEFORE applying them to the customer's case. I have a wall full of case sections where my concepts and ideas have been tested and refined.

On this case I developed a brand new way to do the handles that I have never seen before on anyone else's work. This cost me several hours of thinking about it plus more time spent researching handles BECAUSE I really wanted to do a tooled handle that was ALSO comfortable in the hand.

At every single step on this case I was right there either working on it or telling my staff what to do. I have photos of the case in every stage of development after construction finally began.

There are many other things that you cannot see on this case where I designed features here and there on the fly. For example, instead of using black fabric for the jump handle compartment I elected to use butterscotch deerskin and also to line the lower pocket with it. The idea to tool inside the rim was decided on the fly by me and required ME to sit down and re-engineer the overall pattern of the case.

I could go on with more things but the POINT of all this is that the "dirty work" IS done by the designer, especially in my shop. Unless I allow it NOTHING is done in my shop without my approval. And the only time I allow things to be done without my supervision is when I am satisfied that they are able to do those things to my standards, which is rare.

So enough about "dirty hands" - mine are black from leather dye by the way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's move on to assumption number two where you state;

The same thing happens with cue cases many times apprentices build the cases and one individual offers them as Custom cases, however, the individual who's name is on the cases doesn't build any of them himself. They are made by a number of people in a factory setting, that is tooled for this purpose specifically.

You make this statement as if you KNOW this to be a true fact. I highly doubt that you have visited ANY case maker's operation to ascertain how and why they build they way they do.

You don't even know if the staff are "apprentices" or employees. Do you even know the difference? I am the "individual" you refer to to so quit being mealy mouthed about it. We already had the discussion about what custom is and there is NO DOUBT Craig that the cases coming out of my shop are CUSTOM CASES in every sense and definition of the word.

But let's talk about the last sentence in your above statement. What purpose SHOULD a shop be "tooled" for? Really Craig any one who makes anything on a continuous basis that is worth their salt sets up their shop to be able to PRODUCE things in a quick and consistent manner.

Are you suggesting a LIMIT on the number of tools and jigs a person can use in order to be able to call their work "custom" I know you already think there should be a limit on how many people work on it but now you want to limit the tools and processes as well?

Or do you mean to imply that I basically have a cue case factory and that the cases are made by throwing a bunch of leather on the table at one end and the other end spits out a case? A case assembly line of sorts? Is that what you mean?

It's really hard to tell when you make statements like this that are presented as fact but in fact are just opinion that is ignorant of the actual process.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the final point - I could go on for days but I need to go watch some WORLD CLASS pool instead of debating this and two, it's just not important in the grand scheme of things.

you said:
I think a craftsman's unique touch is what it takes to make something truly custom. In my opinion if they are made any other way they are nothing more than production one of a kind items and they should be represented as such.

Again you are misusing the word custom. Custom only applies to things that are made to order according to the CUSTOMER'S specification. The craftsman's touch, the designer's design are the things that make items DIFFERENT from other people's similar items. By your logic the only thing that makes a case "worthy" is who did the labor to actually build it.

Does a Jack Justis case cease to be worthy to be called a Justis case if someone else were to go into Jack's home and build a case using exactly his tools and methods and the case came out exactly as he would build it? In that situation the CREATOR of the case is Jack Justis, the builder could be anyone. Jack created all the jigs, he created all the patterns, he defined the method.

You did start this thread specifically to FLAME me.

If you cannot see my unique touch in the cases I build then I have to say you are blind or being deliberately contrary just to advance your position.

Have a great day - I am off to watch someone win $20,000

manwon
05-02-2009, 11:28 PM
Well what is that you "think" you are paying for? Value is always subjective in these situations. The "worth" you assign to something might not be the same that someone else assigns to it.

The other issue where you are mixing concepts is "custom". Custom is not related to how many people work on something. Custom means made to the specifications of the customer.

If you look at Ernie Gutierez's (sp) - Ginacue's shop you will see a shop that is in fact a cue factory and Ernie is quite proud of the fact that he has made all the machines himself to automate almost every process. It is a one man cue making facility because Ernie chooses it to be that way but it is a "factory" none the less. In fact one could very well make the case that the "art" of making cues is in essence the ability to make an instrument over and over that is highly consistent in it's performance.

So in that case "custom" only applies to the decoration in the cue as to what the customer can choose to have done.

If I call Viking and order a cue with all my decorative choices and they build it then it is every bit as much of a "custom" cue as any Ginacue is. Will it have the same value? No because the market places a much higher value on the rarity of Ginacues vs. the bountiful abundance of Viking cues.

I really truly HATE to use this word to describe a person but in fact an apprentice or worker is a tool that the designer/maker uses to produce the work that will bear his name. There is NO NEED for makers to disclose ANYTHING related to WHO did what work on a cue or a case because as long as it bears the name of the maker it should stand up to the quality that the name has earned a reputation for.

I do however feel that a person who is contemplating the purchase of a custom anything should investigate who they want to do the work and do whatever it takes to feel secure in their choice.

John, I will not allow you to derail this thread!!!!:D You continue to speak out about raising the bar and about competition, but your only really concerned about is proving your are the best. But who are you trying to prove this to yourself, and if so why?? I think people should just let their work speak for itself, or let their customers speak for them. But that is not your way John, you have to personally glorify everything that comes from your shop. John you have certainly established yourself and your reputation as a Leather worker / Case maker so what do you have to prove to anyone. Yet, as soon as some else comes along and people recognize them for the work they are doing you go on a personal crusade to turn the attention back to John Barton. Even when some one gives you a compliment you intentionally try to make it out as something it was not meant to be. John you really need to think about how all this makes others view your actions, and you need to understand how needless and foolish it all really is.:embarrassed2:

John competition and raising the bar are good things, but they should be done by the instigator not by his underlings. Like I have said before John I think you should sit down and build a case yourself, with your two hands, if you want to compete with those who do just that, now that would be raising the bar John.;)

Thanks for your opinion, and like I have said many times relax John you really have nothing to prove to anyone!!!!:)

manwon
05-02-2009, 11:36 PM
You make a lot of assumptions here. Let's start with the last one, the one about the designer not getting their hands dirty;

Do you really know ANYTHING about how this works in real life Craig? Do you think that the designer sits in an office and sends off sketches and magically products just appear?

Do you have any CLUE at all what it takes to create something of substance and how much WORK is involved by everyone in the process?

Let's continue to use MY latest case as an example and I will run it down for you;

First the customer contacts me with his concept. We discuss it and I provide sketches and mockups that I do. This goes back and forth until we settle on a basic design - in this case that means about 20ish emails back and forth and four or five drafts on the concept.

Then I have the tooler do a rough sketch of the tooling pattern to go on the case and with him I work on that until I feel it's good to present to the customer - in this case that worked out to about three revisions BEFORE I sent it to the customer.

After the customer sees it we make any changes that they want to see. In this particular instance that equated to many changes throughout the process. I am the conduit for any and all changes - tack on another 20ish emails back and forth.

I designed the way the case would be constructed, if you know anything AT ALL about case construction then you will recognize how hard it is to build a case the way we did here. So this meant that I had to work out the methods and prototype them BEFORE applying them to the customer's case. I have a wall full of case sections where my concepts and ideas have been tested and refined.

On this case I developed a brand new way to do the handles that I have never seen before on anyone else's work. This cost me several hours of thinking about it plus more time spent researching handles BECAUSE I really wanted to do a tooled handle that was ALSO comfortable in the hand.

At every single step on this case I was right there either working on it or telling my staff what to do. I have photos of the case in every stage of development after construction finally began.

There are many other things that you cannot see on this case where I designed features here and there on the fly. For example, instead of using black fabric for the jump handle compartment I elected to use butterscotch deerskin and also to line the lower pocket with it. The idea to tool inside the rim was decided on the fly by me and required ME to sit down and re-engineer the overall pattern of the case.

I could go on with more things but the POINT of all this is that the "dirty work" IS done by the designer, especially in my shop. Unless I allow it NOTHING is done in my shop without my approval. And the only time I allow things to be done without my supervision is when I am satisfied that they are able to do those things to my standards, which is rare.

So enough about "dirty hands" - mine are black from leather dye by the way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's move on to assumption number two where you state;



You make this statement as if you KNOW this to be a true fact. I highly doubt that you have visited ANY case maker's operation to ascertain how and why they build they way they do.

You don't even know if the staff are "apprentices" or employees. Do you even know the difference? I am the "individual" you refer to to so quit being mealy mouthed about it. We already had the discussion about what custom is and there is NO DOUBT Craig that the cases coming out of my shop are CUSTOM CASES in every sense and definition of the word.

But let's talk about the last sentence in your above statement. What purpose SHOULD a shop be "tooled" for? Really Craig any one who makes anything on a continuous basis that is worth their salt sets up their shop to be able to PRODUCE things in a quick and consistent manner.

Are you suggesting a LIMIT on the number of tools and jigs a person can use in order to be able to call their work "custom" I know you already think there should be a limit on how many people work on it but now you want to limit the tools and processes as well?

Or do you mean to imply that I basically have a cue case factory and that the cases are made by throwing a bunch of leather on the table at one end and the other end spits out a case? A case assembly line of sorts? Is that what you mean?

It's really hard to tell when you make statements like this that are presented as fact but in fact are just opinion that is ignorant of the actual process.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the final point - I could go on for days but I need to go watch some WORLD CLASS pool instead of debating this and two, it's just not important in the grand scheme of things.



Again you are misusing the word custom. Custom only applies to things that are made to order according to the CUSTOMER'S specification. The craftsman's touch, the designer's design are the things that make items DIFFERENT from other people's similar items. By your logic the only thing that makes a case "worthy" is who did the labor to actually build it.

Does a Jack Justis case cease to be worthy to be called a Justis case if someone else were to go into Jack's home and build a case using exactly his tools and methods and the case came out exactly as he would build it? In that situation the CREATOR of the case is Jack Justis, the builder could be anyone. Jack created all the jigs, he created all the patterns, he defined the method.

You did start this thread specifically to FLAME me.

If you cannot see my unique touch in the cases I build then I have to say you are blind or being deliberately contrary just to advance your position.

Have a great day - I am off to watch someone win $20,000

John be very careful!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooner or later you are going to slip off the cloud you have placed yourself upon and come back to the real world!!!!:p

John when that day comes I feel sorry for you my Brother!!!!!!!:)

Seriously John, take a look in the Mirror is all this necessary or is it a product of insecurity, only you can say for certain John. Just like everything else John you had to jump into this thread and assert yourself because you felt left out. I just don't think you understand how it makes you look John, but if this helps you feel assertive I suppose this thread has served a purpose after all.!!!!!!!

Good Night John.

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 12:07 AM
John, I will not allow you to derail this thread!!!!:D You continue to speak out about raising the bar and about competition, but your only really concerned about is proving your are the best. But who are you trying to prove this to yourself, and if so why?? I think people should just let their work speak for itself, or let their customers speak for them. But that is not your way John, you have to personally glorify everything that comes from your shop. John you have certainly established yourself and your reputation as a Leather worker / Case maker so what do you have to prove to anyone. Yet, as soon as some else comes along and people recognize them for the work they are doing you go on a personal crusade to turn the attention back to John Barton. Even when some one gives you a compliment you intentionally try to make it out as something it was not meant to be. John you really need to think about how all this makes others view your actions, and you need to understand how needless and foolish it all really is.:embarrassed2:

John competition and raising the bar are good things, but they should be done by the instigator not by his underlings. Like I have said before John I think you should sit down and build a case yourself, with your two hands, if you want to compete with those who do just that, now that would be raising the bar John.;)

Thanks for your opinion, and like I have said many times relax John you really have nothing to prove to anyone!!!!:)

Unless you are the moderator you have zero power to influence what direction this thread goes in. You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

I have kept it ON TOPIC and addressed your points.

The fact is Craig that YOUR VIEW on this topic is stodgy and unrealistic. I refuted all of your points privately and now you have sought to make a "poll" to see if you can ANYONE to agree with you.

Don't you know already that the world is mostly made up of "underlings".

Innovation and "bar raising" doesn't come from "underlings" and workers and rarely from apprentices. It comes from inventors and people who are NOT HAPPY with the way things are. Those people often use other people's labor in order to get their creative and inventive things done. Any architect can swing a hammer but not every carpenter can design a building.

And you're right Craig I promote what comes out of our shop because I am DAMN PROUD of what WE build. I am proud to show off the work and explain the new gee-whiz features that aren't apparent on the surface.

As for jumping your ass when you started "glorifying" Rusty's work as the second coming of Chas Clements even though you HAD NEVER EVEN HELD ONE OF RUSTY'S CASES IN YOUR HANDS...... yes I did and I explained my reasons for my comments. Rusty and I understand each other and respect each other tremendously! You I don't understand and this particular crusade you are on is not respected by me at all. However I did give you the respect of carrying on the discussion IN PRIVATE, but since you made it public let it play out.

If you are going to pose as a case expert then at least go and get some expertise to back it up.

Now, I know you want to analyze me and make it all about my insecurities and yada yada but let's not derail the thread by talking about my psyche and get it back to the fact that you promote people's work that you have never seen in person as being as good as or better than other people's work you have ALSO never seen (I believe) in person, AND this in turn leads to your "expertise" being questioned, which then leads to you finding some way to attempt to DISCREDIT the person who dares to question your opinions that are stated as fact.

I don't care that you have opinions. We all do. I think my McDermott D-1 cue was as good or better than any custom cue at any price I have ever owned - other people feel differently and can tell me why six way from Sunday. However if I state it as a fact then I should have examples and concrete evidence to back up my statement, such as x-rays, testimonials, stress testing etc....

My beef is that YOU make these statements like "in many cases the xxxx is made by apprentices in a factory environment" as if you toured the factory and saw this with your own eyes, when in fact you did not tour the facility where the product is made and your statement is an assumption only.

I will not let such statements stand as long as I am a member here and what you say is related to my business. It's my duty to refute such statements from you and others lest they be taken as fact by readers with far less experience.

It's not about me (well in this particular instance it is) it's about making sure that people know what the real - or at least the other side - of the story is.

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 12:17 AM
John be very careful!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooner or later you are going to slip off the cloud you have placed yourself upon and come back to the real world!!!!:p

John when that day comes I feel sorry for you my Brother!!!!!!!:)

Seriously John, take a look in the Mirror is all this necessary or is it a product of insecurity, only you can say for certain John. Just like everything else John you had to jump into this thread and assert yourself because you felt left out. I just don't think you understand how it makes you look John, but if this helps you feel assertive I suppose this thread has served a purpose after all.!!!!!!!

Good Night John.

It's funny you write this about the mirror because I am sitting in my hotel room looking in the mirror as I type this and wondering what the hell I am still doing here??

I jumped INTO the thread because YOU made it about me. You know FULL WELL that you started this thread because of our PRIVATE discussions.

Now, I certainly agree that this is a topic worthy of debate. I have provided my examples, stated my side and addressed your statements. Isn't this what you wanted?

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 12:27 AM
J Even when some one gives you a compliment you intentionally try to make it out as something it was not meant to be.

No, I get plenty of sincere compliments that I am truly grateful and thankful for. (thanks for the ego-boost all you sincere complimenters!!!!)

It's only when "some" people make "compliments" that I feel quite strong are backhanded slaps that I take issue with it.

Then I intentionally address it. Sorry man I thought you should have at least had something more to say than "great case for a woman" after you came out presenting yourself as an expert on cue cases and tooling.

I thought you might at least hail me as the best case maker since Chaz Dillon or something :-) What do I have to do to get a break from you?

Oh yeah, I know I have to cut the leather, and tool it, and sew it and rivet all by myself. Ok got it.

manwon
05-03-2009, 12:29 AM
Unless you are the moderator you have zero power to influence what direction this thread goes in. You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

I have kept it ON TOPIC and addressed your points.

The fact is Craig that YOUR VIEW on this topic is stodgy and unrealistic. I refuted all of your points privately and now you have sought to make a "poll" to see if you can ANYONE to agree with you.

Don't you know already that the world is mostly made up of "underlings".

Innovation and "bar raising" doesn't come from "underlings" and workers and rarely from apprentices. It comes from inventors and people who are NOT HAPPY with the way things are. Those people often use other people's labor in order to get their creative and inventive things done. Any architect can swing a hammer but not every carpenter can design a building.

And you're right Craig I promote what comes out of our shop because I am DAMN PROUD of what WE build. I am proud to show off the work and explain the new gee-whiz features that aren't apparent on the surface.

As for jumping your ass when you started "glorifying" Rusty's work as the second coming of Chas Clements even though you HAD NEVER EVEN HELD ONE OF RUSTY'S CASES IN YOUR HANDS...... yes I did and I explained my reasons for my comments. Rusty and I understand each other and respect each other tremendously! You I don't understand and this particular crusade you are on is not respected by me at all. However I did give you the respect of carrying on the discussion IN PRIVATE, but since you made it public let it play out.

If you are going to pose as a case expert then at least go and get some expertise to back it up.

Now, I know you want to analyze me and make it all about my insecurities and yada yada but let's not derail the thread by talking about my psyche and get it back to the fact that you promote people's work that you have never seen in person as being as good as or better than other people's work you have ALSO never seen (I believe) in person, AND this in turn leads to your "expertise" being questioned, which then leads to you finding some way to attempt to DISCREDIT the person who dares to question your opinions that are stated as fact.

I don't care that you have opinions. We all do. I think my McDermott D-1 cue was as good or better than any custom cue at any price I have ever owned - other people feel differently and can tell me why six way from Sunday. However if I state it as a fact then I should have examples and concrete evidence to back up my statement, such as x-rays, testimonials, stress testing etc....

My beef is that YOU make these statements like "in many cases the xxxx is made by apprentices in a factory environment" as if you toured the factory and saw this with your own eyes, when in fact you did not tour the facility where the product is made and your statement is an assumption only.

I will not let such statements stand as long as I am a member here and what you say is related to my business. It's my duty to refute such statements from you and others lest they be taken as fact by readers with far less experience.

It's not about me (well in this particular instance it is) it's about making sure that people know what the real - or at least the other side - of the story is.



You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

John did you read the poll questions John are they unfair John, or Bias one way or the other? John all you are doing is proving my point,;):grin: and try as you will, you will not derail this thread. John like I have said everything is not about you, and you do not contol the opinions of others, well at least not mine!!!!;)

You just don't see how foolish you look John, you just don't get it!!!!!:o

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 12:49 AM
You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

John did you read the poll questions John are they unfair John, or Bias one way or the other? John all you are doing is proving my point,;):grin: and try as you will, you will not derail this thread. John like I have said everything is not about you, and you do not contol the opinions of others, well at least not mine!!!!;)

You just don't see how foolish you look John, you just don't get it!!!!!:o

These are your questions and yes they are biased. It's a fact that people who write polls frame the questions subconsciously (and probably on purpose too) in such a way that they are biased to elicit the responses that are desired. Look it up.


Is it more important who built something or which shop it came from?

Sorry I have to get out the grammar police pen for a moment before I address this one.

Which is more important? Knowing the exact person who built something or just knowing the shop it came from? (I think that the question should have been phrased this way but we all got it anyway)

Yes it is important

You asked which one is MORE important not whether it's important. This answer is irrelevant and skews the results.

Doesn't matter to me so long as it signed by the Craftsman
I only want the Craftsman to build my Cue or Case

The answers here are leading. Again you only asked which is more important - the answers should be only two, "knowing the person" or "knowing the shop" and let people VOTE on which of those two things are MORE important to them.

I don't really care if I like what I purchased

Leading and irrelevant.


Not Important at all

Not part of the question and irrelevant. Take some time to really think about these "polls" before you use them to flame people.

A person who was TRULY interested in the results of a poll would simply put one up WITHOUT any extra reason and let people vote. By giving your point of view you are leading the respondents.

That's like if I were asked to take a survey on how I feel about abortion and was made to watch a five minute video put on by anti-abortion people before answering the question. Naturally this will tend to skew how I answer some questions.

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:04 AM
These are your questions and yes they are biased. It's a fact that people who write polls frame the questions subconsciously (and probably on purpose too) in such a way that they are biased to elicit the responses that are desired. Look it up.



Sorry I have to get out the grammar police pen for a moment before I address this one.

Which is more important? Knowing the exact person who built something or just knowing the shop it came from? (I think that the question should have been phrased this way but we all got it anyway)


You asked which one is MORE important not whether it's important. This answer is irrelevant and skews the results.


The answers here are leading. Again you only asked which is more important - the answers should be only two, "knowing the person" or "knowing the shop" and let people VOTE on which of those two things are MORE important to them.


Leading and irrelevant.



Not part of the question and irrelevant. Take some time to really think about these "polls" before you use them to flame people.

A person who was TRULY interested in the results of a poll would simply put one up WITHOUT any extra reason and let people vote. By giving your point of view you are leading the respondents.

That's like if I were asked to take a survey on how I feel about abortion and was made to watch a five minute video put on by anti-abortion people before answering the question. Naturally this will tend to skew how I answer some questions.

John if you spent all the time that you spend being insecure, building a case you could build one hell of a case John!!!!!!!!:D

But I suspect that you may have forgotten to much along the way, and it may be more difficult than you remember!!!!!!

Take Care John!!!!;)

JesPiddlin
05-03-2009, 01:13 AM
You two obviously have something going on, here. Be careful. It is said there is a fine line between love and hate. :wink:

It is very late and I think I finally managed to get this to say what I believe. Nevertheless, here it is. I hope it explains as clear as it sounds to me. You guys are in a tough spot and this is my interpretation of what I think you are both getting at. If I'm in left field, please just leave me out there. It'll rain soon and I'll come back in. :D

In one post, I read this....

"For the record though Craig, my toolers who do custom work sign their work. IF my work ever became collectible then there is a record on each piece of who did the tooling. If the tooling is repeated pattern work then it is unsigned."

Let's look at collectible glassware. Fenton, for example. They have multiple people doing the work and yet, some pieces bear the painter's signature on them. But, the glassware still bears the Fenton label, because it was their glassware design, built in their factory setting, with their equipment, within their strict standards.

How many people are behind the fashion designer and help him make his name what it is? How many of them get their name/signature attached to the clothing? He makes large sums of money on the designs that other people construct and still others exhibit. If he makes a custom order, he probably seldom, if ever touches the sewing machine. He only creates the design to be constructed by others. His name is the umbrella name all the others work under.

Yes, even the architect who designs and has others build for him fits in here.

There are artists in each field. But, when you get so busy you have to hire someone to work under you, you cease to be a lone star and become more of a "factory". When someone within that factory setting creates or designs something on their own, they should get the right to identify it as their work.

Custom - Webster's New World Dictionary - made or done to order.

Nobody ever said a mass production, or factory, or assembly-style business cannot build custom items. In fact, in my opinion, any company able to do that generally earns a little extra recognition for the ability to accomodate the customer.

As I stated earlier, I believe it is the buyer's responsibility to educate himself on what he is buying. Some people don't care. Some care very much.

There is one thing I believe very strongly. If I go to a company and request a custom item to be made by X person, I expect X person to be the one who builds it from the bottom to the top, if I am going to pay a premium price for it. There will be certain items I know will be built by other companies, such as bumpers, hinges, bolts, etc.. But, the actual design, assembly and decoration should be only by the person I requested to build that item and I expect that person's signature to be on that item to prove it was done by him/her and nobody else. Because that company allowed and/or enabled the creation of the item I custom ordered, I expect the item will bear the company label, as well as the signature of the custom creator.

There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

By the way, that is a GORGEOUS case!

TWOFORPOOL
05-03-2009, 01:26 AM
I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:47 AM
I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it.

Do a check of the AZ Billiards Archive that has happened to a forum member, and yes the cues buyer found out at the Billiards Expo that his cue was built by Pauls apprentise, and tes he was pissed I mean Hello!!!!!

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.[/

The Logo JB cases also kinda tells you the case came from Johns shop doesn't it!!;) Generally Craftsman sign something they made.:)

HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that -

Please tell us since you apparently know, why did he move to China?

Thanks for your opinion.

manwon
05-03-2009, 02:09 AM
You two obviously have something going on, here. Be careful. It is said there is a fine line between love and hate. :wink:

It is very late and I think I finally managed to get this to say what I believe. Nevertheless, here it is. I hope it explains as clear as it sounds to me. You guys are in a tough spot and this is my interpretation of what I think you are both getting at. If I'm in left field, please just leave me out there. It'll rain soon and I'll come back in. :D

In one post, I read this....

"For the record though Craig, my toolers who do custom work sign their work. IF my work ever became collectible then there is a record on each piece of who did the tooling. If the tooling is repeated pattern work then it is unsigned."

Let's look at collectible glassware. Fenton, for example. They have multiple people doing the work and yet, some pieces bear the painter's signature on them. But, the glassware still bears the Fenton label, because it was their glassware design, built in their factory setting, with their equipment, within their strict standards.

How many people are behind the fashion designer and help him make his name what it is? How many of them get their name/signature attached to the clothing? He makes large sums of money on the designs that other people construct and still others exhibit. If he makes a custom order, he probably seldom, if ever touches the sewing machine. He only creates the design to be constructed by others. His name is the umbrella name all the others work under.

Yes, even the architect who designs and has others build for him fits in here.

There are artists in each field. But, when you get so busy you have to hire someone to work under you, you cease to be a lone star and become more of a "factory". When someone within that factory setting creates or designs something on their own, they should get the right to identify it as their work.

Custom - Webster's New World Dictionary - made or done to order.

Nobody ever said a mass production, or factory, or assembly-style business cannot build custom items. In fact, in my opinion, any company able to do that generally earns a little extra recognition for the ability to accomodate the customer.

As I stated earlier, I believe it is the buyer's responsibility to educate himself on what he is buying. Some people don't care. Some care very much.

There is one thing I believe very strongly. If I go to a company and request a custom item to be made by X person, I expect X person to be the one who builds it from the bottom to the top, if I am going to pay a premium price for it. There will be certain items I know will be built by other companies, such as bumpers, hinges, bolts, etc.. But, the actual design, assembly and decoration should be only by the person I requested to build that item and I expect that person's signature to be on that item to prove it was done by him/her and nobody else. Because that company allowed and/or enabled the creation of the item I custom ordered, I expect the item will bear the company label, as well as the signature of the custom creator.

There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

By the way, that is a GORGEOUS case!



There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

I think your right on target!!!!!!

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 02:36 AM
I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

Actually your case and your wife's is a very good example of what my work is and what the work of my staff is.

It took me a long time to come up with what I wanted to do on your case. You can verify this Bob if you care to share it with the board.

Your case still ranks as one of the best we have ever done and I don't showcase it enough.

Bob wanted a case that was similar to a Justis (I get that request a lot) but clearly not a Justis.

So I thought about it and designed a case where the two lines of tooling that are from a scroll wheel stamp on a Justis would flow in an arc.
http://www.jbcases.com/bob.html
http://www.jbcases.com/pic/Bob/1.JPG

Now, if you look closely you can see that the pockets also follow the line. Those of you who are reading this and build cases know that this is not an easy pocket to build. I went through a lot of printing, cutting and scotch tape to do the pattern for the pockets. I made the pattern all by myself because no one who worked for me at the time had any clue how to do it. Now, two years later I can draw a pocket like this and Zhen Hai can make a pattern for it either by modifying my original pattern or from scratch using the techniques I have taught him.

But back to this case you can see that the pockets all follow the line of tooling as does the back piece. This whole case required a brand new pattern and to this day you will not find another case like it anywhere.

Notice that the connections for the lid and the closure are all custom and unique, I designed and made patterns for those.

The actual construction of the case took about a week. The creation of it took months - well it felt like months of work anyway.

Yes, my staff does pretty much all the construction except for when I want to teach them something or when we are doing something critical that I feel I need to do so that they don't have to bear the responsibility if it's not done right. But a case like this one is truly one that would not exist without my work on it. I signed it because "I" built it by gathering together all the tools and people I need to bring it from my imagination to reality.

http://www.jbcases.com/pic/Bob/21.JPG

A JB Case exists only because of my efforts to start and maintain a workshop capable of making cases like this one. As long as I am involved in the design I will sign each piece that I feel warrants my signature. If I have no hand in the design or it's a model that we repeat a lot then I don't sign the cases. Every case however will get the JB Cases label with the month and year of it's creation.

If something happened to me then JB Cases could and hopefully would continue and I have full faith that, now, almost two years after I started making cases again, that my staff could build solid cases according to my standards and principles. That's what it's really all about for me.

Now Craig I am going to completely derail the thread with an inspirational story that serves to show how I want to influence the world.

I tell my staff all the time to try new things, to explore. I tell them if they have an idea then they should follow it and make an example and then fine tune. In my shop we don't stand around and debate whether we should do something or whether it will work, we just do it.

Well, in my shop we have four people who took up leather tooling and making leather items based on the work they do for me. They now make leather goods like wallets and such and sell them on China's version of Ebay to supplement their incomes and as such they have learned that they to can make things. One of my employees even contracts out the sewing of his items to some factory workers and they in turn have him tool up other things that they make. I am 100% sure that none of these people would be doing this if I didn't infuse them with the can-do innovate-create-explore spirit.

Ghandi said "be the change you want to see in the world." My way of doing this is to gather people around me who want to learn and grow and be a part of something enduring.

My role model here is Jerry Franklin. Although Jerry left us far too early his vision of a shop that could produce world class cues without his active involvement is a reality. When Jerry died it was his dream for he and Laurie to travel the world in search of exotic woods to use in SouthWest cues. They were very close to realizing that dream. When I visited the SouthWest shop in 1993 Jerry and Laurie were so kind to share with me their process and Jerry was kind enough to give me some great advice on design that I follow to this day.

I think Jerry would be proud of me and where I am at right now as a case maker. He would see what we are building and nod his approval. People like Jerry and Laurie Franklin, Roy Mallot, Bill Stroud, Joey Gold, Jim Murnak, Thomas Wayne, and many other great people in this business who all excel at what they do are the people whose advice I follow and whose opinions matter to me.

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 03:31 AM
You two obviously have something going on, here. Be careful. It is said there is a fine line between love and hate. :wink:

It is very late and I think I finally managed to get this to say what I believe. Nevertheless, here it is. I hope it explains as clear as it sounds to me. You guys are in a tough spot and this is my interpretation of what I think you are both getting at. If I'm in left field, please just leave me out there. It'll rain soon and I'll come back in. :D

In one post, I read this....

"For the record though Craig, my toolers who do custom work sign their work. IF my work ever became collectible then there is a record on each piece of who did the tooling. If the tooling is repeated pattern work then it is unsigned."

Let's look at collectible glassware. Fenton, for example. They have multiple people doing the work and yet, some pieces bear the painter's signature on them. But, the glassware still bears the Fenton label, because it was their glassware design, built in their factory setting, with their equipment, within their strict standards.

How many people are behind the fashion designer and help him make his name what it is? How many of them get their name/signature attached to the clothing? He makes large sums of money on the designs that other people construct and still others exhibit. If he makes a custom order, he probably seldom, if ever touches the sewing machine. He only creates the design to be constructed by others. His name is the umbrella name all the others work under.

Yes, even the architect who designs and has others build for him fits in here.

There are artists in each field. But, when you get so busy you have to hire someone to work under you, you cease to be a lone star and become more of a "factory". When someone within that factory setting creates or designs something on their own, they should get the right to identify it as their work.

Custom - Webster's New World Dictionary - made or done to order.

Nobody ever said a mass production, or factory, or assembly-style business cannot build custom items. In fact, in my opinion, any company able to do that generally earns a little extra recognition for the ability to accomodate the customer.

As I stated earlier, I believe it is the buyer's responsibility to educate himself on what he is buying. Some people don't care. Some care very much.

There is one thing I believe very strongly. If I go to a company and request a custom item to be made by X person, I expect X person to be the one who builds it from the bottom to the top, if I am going to pay a premium price for it. There will be certain items I know will be built by other companies, such as bumpers, hinges, bolts, etc.. But, the actual design, assembly and decoration should be only by the person I requested to build that item and I expect that person's signature to be on that item to prove it was done by him/her and nobody else. Because that company allowed and/or enabled the creation of the item I custom ordered, I expect the item will bear the company label, as well as the signature of the custom creator.

There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

By the way, that is a GORGEOUS case!


Thanks! I agree with almost everything you have said here.

The only exception I have is that when someone is working in another man's shop then everything done there is done because that man provides the opportunity and platform. As such when elements are developed there that are new and unique then it's not really a "right" that the person who developed them should get the credit or be recognized somehow. It's a nice thing to do to allow others to get credit for the things that they do in a shop but it's not a right as long as you are drawing a paycheck from the owner of the shop.

I do believe that when it comes to art that decorates an item that it is important to recognize the artist. I did this with the designs on the Sterling Graphic Cues www.sterlingcue.com

Many times people will go work for someone in order to learn and they will have the ambition to be on their own. While there they may stretch out and design/develop new things that the owner never thought of or cared to do. In these situations the shop gets the credit since it's under their banner. However when the person who did the actual innovating goes out on their own they can then point back to the things they did and use that as part of their portfolio.

And THIS is really the crux of my whole point.

Craig looks at this detailed case and thinks that I have no right to sign it because Zhen Hai did all the tooling work and others did most of the construction (Zhen Hai signed it also but I haven't shown the picture yet).

But what Craig fails to see is that this case is not a JB Case because of the tooling on it. It's a JB case because of the way it's built and the way it's built is entirely done that way because it's how I designed it, every last little bit of it. The tooling is the icing on the cake but if Zhen Hai left me then JB Cases would continue to exist and when customers requested custom tooled cases we would hire someone else to do it. This is no different than saddle shops who hire toolers to decorate the saddles. The shops are famous for the quality of the saddles they build first and foremost and for the beauty of the tooling second.

Lastly Craig assumes that I did no work on the case and this is honestly something that he cannot possibly know. I understand his stance on things but honestly, he isn't flying around the country to check on whether the people he buys things from are the only ones doing work on the things he buys.

Detlev Rackow
05-03-2009, 03:48 AM
I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

That's quite right. A quote from John's page IN THE GOOGLE CACHE, not from today:

---
At present I live and work in Xiamen, China. I have built a small workshop to design and create pool cue cases. Working with me are a team of talented designers, pattern makers, toolers, and tailors. Some work with me at my workshop and others are contracted. We have the full resources of large factories and well as the flexibility of a small shop. There is almost nothing outside the realm of possiblilty for us. Our only limitations are imagination and money.

I will do my utmost to use the very best materials to provide the highest level of protection that fits your desired design and your stated needs. I won't be able to do the impossible but I might get close and surprise you with the results.

Myself and my team are ready to make you the case of your dreams.
---

The page is much longer, and contains a lot of text in which John is quite upfront about the fact that quite a lot of people work in his shop, and they will obviously not just answer the phone.

I don't own a JB-case, but I considered a lot of alternatives before I ordered my case, and I was fully aware that John has some people who work under his supervision. This would not have been a problem for me, it's just that I prefer my case much plainer, and that Mr Thomas' cases suit my taste better.

Best regards,

Detlev

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 04:13 AM
I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it.

Do a check of the AZ Billiards Archive that has happened to a forum member, and yes the cues buyer found out at the Billiards Expo that his cue was built by Pauls apprentise, and tes he was pissed I mean Hello!!!!!

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.[/

The Logo JB cases also kinda tells you the case came from Johns shop doesn't it!!;) Generally Craftsman sign something they made.:)

HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that -

Please tell us since you apparently know, why did he move to China?

Thanks for your opinion.

Actually Craig when we did Bob's cases I was not using the current JB Cases logo. I don't remember which case we started that one but it was sometime last year. Before that I did sign all the cases.

I am not sure why you feel the need to attack Bob or discuss why I am in China when you are concerned about derailing the thread.

But for the record it's because Sterling Gaming sent me here to help them develop products and do quality control on the ones we now sell that are imported from China. Along the way I got the jones again to make custom cases and here we are.

The cool thing is that for me what we learn by doing the custom cases makes it way into the mass production ones. Good thing I didn't have my signature laser engraved in those or you would really be flipping out. :-)

The whole thing boils down to each person's own preferences, which as I said is a good topic to discuss when it's not done specifically to attack someone else.

John Barton Signing this post because I made it.

JesPiddlin
05-03-2009, 04:25 AM
I did not look at the thread that was referenced near the beginning of this thread. From what I am reading and beginning to see in this thread.....

Craig..... You are right that the buyer has a right to know the truth about specifically who built an item, if it is important to them. But, that is where the buyer has to take the initiative and find out what he can about the item before he buys it. If the item is advertised as being built by someone other than the person who built it, that is false advertising. If it is built by someone, but sold by a company who hired them to do the construction work, that is a business. Levi jeans hires people to sew for them, but they do not tell us their names. The only real difference I see here is that you actually have communication with the person who signs these cases and because he is one person and not just a company, and because you are used to dealing with an individual maker, it is hard to relate to this as being a business like Levis, with unnamed individuals doing most of the work, unless they do something spectacular on a custom ordered item. I totally get where you're coming from, but I believe I understand where John is coming from, too. You are both right in a way, but refusing to see over the brick walls you have built.

If I was a teacher, I'd smack you both on the rear and send you home to your mothers to explain why you got in trouble. But, I'm not a teacher and you're both a bit too big to send home to your mothers. So, I'm gonna back out of this and let you two work it out. You're both a couple of pretty smart guys, so I'm figuring you'll get it worked out, eventually. If anything I have said has helped either one of you understand more, I am glad.

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 04:28 AM
John if you spent all the time that you spend being insecure, building a case you could build one hell of a case John!!!!!!!!:D

Scary thought isn't it. Just imagine if all the time I spent today doing this had been spent developing more great cases.

But I suspect that you may have forgotten to much along the way, and it may be more difficult than you remember!!!!!!

Take Care John!!!!;)

Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

One thing is certain though, I have forgotten more about case making than you will ever know. I am sure of that from our conversations. Remember when you threatened to bandsaw an Instroke case to prove your assertion that they were built in a way you consider to be inferior? You do remember that I had to correct you on that right? Or are you going to actually go and bandsaw one for us? I can tell you a less destructive way to prove yourself wrong and you can still sell the case later.

Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me.

mdavis228
05-03-2009, 05:27 AM
Anybody remember hearing the names James White & Mike Cochran? Anybody communicated with Laurie Franklin about "Jerry Franklin era" Southwests, and had her say that by the early mid 90's Jerry wasn't doing much besides supervise & spraying finish because all the processes & equipment were in place?
If I buy a Paul Mottey, I'm not going to expect (or receive) a discounted price based on the expectation that Jim White may do a good bit of the work. If I sell a Tim Scruggs, I'm not going to drop the price based on a suggestion by a potential customer that Mike Cochran may have been largely involved. These are things I know as an educated and realistic buyer. As an educated buyer, I'm also aware that there's no way in the world that there's $5000 difference in quality between a 4 point Hoppe style built by Barry Szamboti & one built by Tim Scruggs, or Jim White, or Jeff Olney for that matter. If I call had called Paul Mottey 8 yrs ago & suggested he knock a grand off the price of my cue since his "apprentice" would likely be involved in the cue, I'm quite sure he'd have helped me feel free to choose another cuemaker.
Tony Zinzola is making me a cue right now. It'll be nice. It'll be made exclusively by him, to spec's that were, in part, dictated by me & with materials specified by me (though not "chosen" by me, although not entirely with parts he crafted - screws, etc. - but it's not 5 grand. Tony is enlisting some VERY high grade tutelage in an effort to further his skills and, when/if he is able to utilize that help to enhance his ability to execute, he will deserve a reasonable expectation that he can charge more for his product. Still, the market will, in great part, dictate the extent to which he can act on that expectation and, certainly, the extent to which his product's value can maintain or increase it's level.
Dennis Searing will be making me a cue in the not too distant future. It will cost more. I view the opportunity, and align my own expectations of the finished product, from a different perspective. Deservedly so - for me & for Dennis.

manwon
05-03-2009, 11:51 AM
Actually Craig when we did Bob's cases I was not using the current JB Cases logo. I don't remember which case we started that one but it was sometime last year. Before that I did sign all the cases.

I am not sure why you feel the need to attack Bob or discuss why I am in China when you are concerned about derailing the thread.

But for the record it's because Sterling Gaming sent me here to help them develop products and do quality control on the ones we now sell that are imported from China. Along the way I got the jones again to make custom cases and here we are.

The cool thing is that for me what we learn by doing the custom cases makes it way into the mass production ones. Good thing I didn't have my signature laser engraved in those or you would really be flipping out. :-)

The whole thing boils down to each person's own preferences, which as I said is a good topic to discuss when it's not done specifically to attack someone else.

John Barton Signing this post because I made it.

I am not sure why you feel the need to attack Bob or discuss why I am in China when you are concerned about derailing the thread.

All I did was ask Bob a question, Bob made the statement like he knew why you moved to China, but lets face it John you will take anything you can out of context to use the word attack, because everyone is out to get little John!!!!!!!:D.

John, thanks for keeping this thread on top, I certainly appreciate the extra air time it has received, it also has given me the information I was after, while many have not posted they have added to the poll. The poll is really all that is important and whether you agree with it or not really is not important, because many others do, Dude my pm box is full, and not only from your Pm's!!!;)

In the end John, you are your own worst enemy and with every attempt to change the subject, or deflect comments, or to promote yourself the poll grows larger!!!!!:grin:

Thanks for your Support John.:)

manwon
05-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Scary thought isn't it. Just imagine if all the time I spent today doing this had been spent developing more great cases.



Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

One thing is certain though, I have forgotten more about case making than you will ever know. I am sure of that from our conversations. Remember when you threatened to bandsaw an Instroke case to prove your assertion that they were built in a way you consider to be inferior? You do remember that I had to correct you on that right? Or are you going to actually go and bandsaw one for us? I can tell you a less destructive way to prove yourself wrong and you can still sell the case later.

Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me.



Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

John I think your afraid of the competition and that is what all this is really about anyway, you feel threatened. John, first of all I do not want you to build me a case, I only want you to fairly compete with those who you feel threaten you in some small way by offering your example of Johns work. But, I suppose that will never happen and it really doesn't even matter because like you said it would be impossible to tell your personal work for that of your underlings anyway!!!!:)

watchez
05-03-2009, 12:29 PM
I think that if someone signs a cue or case and it is being sought after as a collectible piece of art, then it should be the person that made and built the case.

I wouldn't buy a Picasso if it was made by someone that Picasso had taught to paint like him, but Picasso signed it.

I think it would be more appropriate to sign, and if the reason for the signature is to give credit to the design and craftsmanship, as 'Designed by John Barton'.

However, that being said - John has always been clear on here that he has a shop of workers. I am not sure what Manwon thought he was buying if he ordered a case from JB. If I ordered a case tomorrow, I would clearly know that I was buying something his crew would build and JB would help design it. But I think I would be clear and tell JB not to sign it. He can stamp it JB Cases or whatever but his signature would be only something to stroke his ego and have nothing to do with the overall value of the case.

Again, it comes down to if the signature if put on there to enhance its' value as a piece of art or simply to state who the creator is. If you by a shirt by P Diddy and it has his signature on it, I don't actually think he wove the thread and dyed the shirt. The signature is merely a way to express the designer.....and a shirt is normally not considered a piece of art.

Great case BTW. Tell Zhen he does fantastic work. Personally, I have a design for a case but unlike a cue that I could 'sit on' and keep pristine and maybe occasionally play with, I don't think I could do the same with a case. I would use it, travel with it and beat it up. Therefore, I can't get myself to spend $700+ on one.

Finally - to clarify, does Justis have a crew or is he the sole maker of his cases? I only ask as Justis seems to be the compare all to the cases that are considered works of art.

TWOFORPOOL
05-03-2009, 12:33 PM
Back when John moved to China he clearly stated he went there to build cases. His primary duties were for another case maker there but was going to start building his own line of cases. I remember this since he did the drawing for a free case to let everybody know what he was going to do. I think if review the threads you can find out where John stated this.

When John built my case I sent him a drawing of what I wanted. My drawing looked like a Justis case and John said he couldn't build this case because it looked so much like a Justis case. He then said he would design a case simular to what I wanted but would add a flare. He sent me several designs THAT WERE PROFESSIONAL DONE. This drawings were very detailed and looked like an designer/engineer drew them. I guarntee you that John spent not less than 20-30 hours designing my case. We made a few minor changes and he sent me another set of drawings TO MAKE SURE I APPROVED THEM AND WAS HAPPY.

The initial cutout (done on real leather) of my case had several problems a John pointed out and showed me only to make some changes again to make sure it was exactly what I wanted. He threw initial leather patterns away since they weren't good enough.

John is a designer of cases and wants everything to be perfect for his customers. Again John has always stated he designs cases and his staff builds them. I would bet from start to finish there was at least 50 hours of design and labor to build my case. He might of made 20.00 an hour to build my case.

TWOFORPOOL
05-03-2009, 12:45 PM
When you buy a Ferrari everybody knows he didn't build it but what a car to have. You buy the car because of the design and craftsmanship built into the car from the employees of Ferrari. I think most people know that John doesn't actually build the cases but what a case to have.

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:00 PM
When you buy a Ferrari everybody knows he didn't build it but what a car to have. You buy the car because of the design and craftsmanship built into the car from the employees of Ferrari. I think most people know that John doesn't actually build the cases but what a case to have.

Bob, I agree with you completely above, and no one ever said that John said he builds the JB Cases himself, at least I have haven't made that claim. But, when John starts talking about raising the bar, and and taking it up a notch, and everything else he has said concerning competition he should be personally involved. I think raising the bar is great, but there is a difference between what is produced from in tooled factory and what is produced by the hands of a single craftsman.

I just think John should become more hands on, maybe then he would receive the praise that he obviously so greatly desires.

Take care Bob and thanks for your comments.

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:07 PM
Back when John moved to China he clearly stated he went there to build cases. His primary duties were for another case maker there but was going to start building his own line of cases. I remember this since he did the drawing for a free case to let everybody know what he was going to do. I think if review the threads you can find out where John stated this.

When John built my case I sent him a drawing of what I wanted. My drawing looked like a Justis case and John said he couldn't build this case because it looked so much like a Justis case. He then said he would design a case simular to what I wanted but would add a flare. He sent me several designs THAT WERE PROFESSIONAL DONE. This drawings were very detailed and looked like an designer/engineer drew them. I guarntee you that John spent not less than 20-30 hours designing my case. We made a few minor changes and he sent me another set of drawings TO MAKE SURE I APPROVED THEM AND WAS HAPPY.

The initial cutout (done on real leather) of my case had several problems a John pointed out and showed me only to make some changes again to make sure it was exactly what I wanted. He threw initial leather patterns away since they weren't good enough.

John is a designer of cases and wants everything to be perfect for his customers. Again John has always stated he designs cases and his staff builds them. I would bet from start to finish there was at least 50 hours of design and labor to build my case. He might of made 20.00 an hour to build my case.


]Back when John moved to China he clearly stated he went there to build cases. His primary duties were for another case maker there but was going to start building his own line of cases. I remember this since he did the drawing for a free case to let everybody know what he was going to do. I think if review the threads you can find out where John stated this.

The reason John went to China was because Sterling Billiards Supplies. John is there front man in China and he helps them with issues that arise and with quality and general manufacturing, John has stated this many times.

Why do companies more their operations to China Bob? What is the major reason since you brought it up, I would like to know what you think.

Thanks for your comments Bob

scruffy1
05-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Hello Az, what is more important who made a product or which shop it came from and who signed it. Is it important when spending hundreds of dollars that the actually craftsman who signed the cue or case actually built it. For instance, if you ordered a cue from a famous Cue maker or Case maker would it matter to you that his apprentise actually made your Cue or Case? This has happened to members on the forum, they have paid three figures and later found out that the item was made by an apprentise. Are you really getting what you paid for, or is the item less meaningful or even less valuable? In the same thought, is their a differance between items made by multiple people and items made by a single person?

To me if I buy something from an indiviual I am buying it because I like that persons Craftsmanship, and I want thier hands to build my purchase, is this unreasonable?

Please post your thoughts on this subject!!!!

Thanks Craig

OMFG, I just got off the phone with Arnold Palmer. Turns out he didnt make these clubs at all!!!!:eek: It really looked like his sig???

TWOFORPOOL
05-03-2009, 01:28 PM
John has an ego as most of us do but the fact is his shop builds a great case.

Manwon, I also didn't feel attacked by you in this thread or any other thread. As a matter of fact I enjoy your comments here and consider you one of the more intelligent and knowledgeable persons on AZ Billiards.

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 01:29 PM
Craig,

Please, either stop making assumptions about my phsyical involvement with the construction of my cases or take the time to actually read what I wrote to find out how much I am involved in the construction of my cases.

For the last time, when something is done on my cases that is different and in some way "raises the bar" then I either invented it or directed it to be done.

And Sterling did not move their operations to China. They sent me to China so that I could be helpful to Sterling in the best way I can, which is to design products and be a nitpicky quality control person. For someone who wants to keep the thread on track you sure have a knack for latching on to off-topic things.

TWOFORPOOL
05-03-2009, 01:31 PM
"Why do companies more their operations to China Bob? What is the major reason since you brought it up, I would like to know what you think."

I think it has something to do with MONEY. But thats another debate/argument that I don't care to get into!

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:35 PM
OMFG, I just got off the phone with Arnold Palmer. Turns out he didnt make these clubs at all!!!!:eek: It really looked like his sig???

Wow, I would have thought you could have figured that out without a phone call, but people never cease to amaze me.:)

Oh and by the way Arnold was a lucky man, on the Johnny Carson show back in the 1960's, Johnny had Arnolds wife on his show. Johnny asked Arnolds wife what she did to bring him luck before a Golf tournament, and she said that she would Kiss His balls to Bring him Luck!!!!! Johnny's comment was that he would bet that makes his putter stand on end!!!!!

So what your actually saying is Arnold didn't really sign your Putter!!!!!!!:D

Thanks for your comments

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:38 PM
"Why do companies more their operations to China Bob? What is the major reason since you brought it up, I would like to know what you think."

I think it has something to do with MONEY. But thats another debate/argument that I don't care to get into!

That is exactly the reason they started their operations in China, there is no Cheaper labor around, and since everything we are talking about has to do with Labor nothing more needs to be said.:)

Thanks for your comments Bob

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Craig,

Please, either stop making assumptions about my phsyical involvement with the construction of my cases or take the time to actually read what I wrote to find out how much I am involved in the construction of my cases.

For the last time, when something is done on my cases that is different and in some way "raises the bar" then I either invented it or directed it to be done.

And Sterling did not move their operations to China. They sent me to China so that I could be helpful to Sterling in the best way I can, which is to design products and be a nitpicky quality control person. For someone who wants to keep the thread on track you sure have a knack for latching on to off-topic things.


And Sterling did not move their operations to China

I agree John, you can not move something to China that started in China, and I have no doubt that you are a very capable and nitpicky quality control person.

Take Care John, and come on John really raise the Bar!!!!:)

manwon
05-03-2009, 01:51 PM
John has an ego as most of us do but the fact is his shop builds a great case.

Manwon, I also didn't feel attacked by you in this thread or any other thread. As a matter of fact I enjoy your comments here and consider you one of the more intelligent and knowledgeable persons on AZ Billiards.

Manwon, I also didn't feel attacked by you in this thread

Thanks for that statement Bob, what I said was never meant to be a personal attack on you. I am grateful for your other kind words, the comments about everything being an attack was Johns and his alone, but that is just how he rolls when he is backed into a corner!!!!:)

Thanks for your comments and take care.

manwon
05-03-2009, 02:30 PM
That's quite right. A quote from John's page IN THE GOOGLE CACHE, not from today:

---
At present I live and work in Xiamen, China. I have built a small workshop to design and create pool cue cases. Working with me are a team of talented designers, pattern makers, toolers, and tailors. Some work with me at my workshop and others are contracted. We have the full resources of large factories and well as the flexibility of a small shop. There is almost nothing outside the realm of possiblilty for us. Our only limitations are imagination and money.

I will do my utmost to use the very best materials to provide the highest level of protection that fits your desired design and your stated needs. I won't be able to do the impossible but I might get close and surprise you with the results.

Myself and my team are ready to make you the case of your dreams.
---

The page is much longer, and contains a lot of text in which John is quite upfront about the fact that quite a lot of people work in his shop, and they will obviously not just answer the phone.

I don't own a JB-case, but I considered a lot of alternatives before I ordered my case, and I was fully aware that John has some people who work under his supervision. This would not have been a problem for me, it's just that I prefer my case much plainer, and that Mr Thomas' cases suit my taste better.

Best regards,

Detlev

Thanks very much for your Comments.

Nostroke
05-03-2009, 04:02 PM
[QUOTE=manwon;1800974]Wow, I would have thought you could have figured that out without a phone call, but people never cease to amaze me.:)

Oh and by the way Arnold was a lucky man, on the Johnny Carson show back in the 1960's, Johnny had Arnolds wife on his show. Johnny asked Arnolds wife what she did to bring him luck before a Golf tournament, and she said that she would Kiss His balls to Bring him Luck!!!!! Johnny's comment was that he would bet that makes his putter stand on end!!!!!

/QUOTE]

You believe that?

manwon
05-03-2009, 04:55 PM
[QUOTE=manwon;1800974]Wow, I would have thought you could have figured that out without a phone call, but people never cease to amaze me.:)

Oh and by the way Arnold was a lucky man, on the Johnny Carson show back in the 1960's, Johnny had Arnolds wife on his show. Johnny asked Arnolds wife what she did to bring him luck before a Golf tournament, and she said that she would Kiss His balls to Bring him Luck!!!!! Johnny's comment was that he would bet that makes his putter stand on end!!!!!

/QUOTE]

You believe that?

After some research it may be an Urban legend, but I certain thought it was something that happened.

You got me there!!!!

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Craig,

You could never back me into a corner and especially not with the weak arguments you have posed here.

Everything is not "just about the labor" Craig, that's the whole point.

Not that you will "get it" but who should get the credit for the existence of your pool room, Full Splice Billiards? Whose responsibility is it that your pool room stands as it does and who runs it? You have mentioned many times on this forum that YOU do this or you do that in YOUR business. I have never heard you say that your staff does anything, never heard you say that anyone besides YOU had anything to do with YOUR poolroom. I certainly don't know their names as you have never mentioned them.

By the logic you wish to impress upon craftsman concerning how they work and market themselves I have to think that you are the only person who conceived of, paid for, built everything, and works in your business. Is this true, do you do everything all by yourself to bring a quality poolroom to the public?

If so then I have to say you are my hero. I was part owner of a pool room in Germany called Maxie's that was a ton of work to design, renovate, and manage. There is no way we could have done it without a lot of talented and dedicated people.

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 05:23 PM
Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

John I think your afraid of the competition and that is what all this is really about anyway, you feel threatened. John, first of all I do not want you to build me a case, I only want you to fairly compete with those who you feel threaten you in some small way by offering your example of Johns work. But, I suppose that will never happen and it really doesn't even matter because like you said it would be impossible to tell your personal work for that of your underlings anyway!!!!:)

How could I possibly feel threatened? Threatened by what, that the orders will all dry up because Jack or Jim or Rusty builds a KILLER case? What could any other case maker do that could possibly threatened me. What are you a psychologist now in addition to your case making expertise?

Fairly compete? So it's unfair if I choose to build a shop where I have the ability to innovate and create new ways to do things? That is somehow unfair?

There was a time when people were rewarded for doing what I am doing. Not only have I figured out how to make the cases I want to make with the ability to literally invent and implement new methods on the fly but I also managed to put five people to work through it. And also more people benefit because the things that get invented to make the custom cases better are also able to be used right away in the mass production cases.

Imagine getting Porsche designed and tested suspension and engine performance for the price of a Ford Escort. That's what my setup brings to the table.

The truth of the matter is Craig that no matter what I do you will find some way to denigrate it. If I did a video of me building a case from start to finish then you would find some way to attempt to discredit it.

However, if you'd like to make a bet then I will bet you the following - you placed an order with Chas Clements for a $1200 envelope case.

I will bet you that $1200 that I can and will make a completely tooled case that is constructed the same or similar to Rusty's case he did for you with the same level of tooling done entirely by me in the next 30 days. If I don't then I will paypal you $1200 and your case by Chas is free. If I do however make this case then you transfer your Clements order to me.

How is that? Since you want to see a JB Case that is built entirely by me I will be happy to do it if there is some incentive to do so. The incentive for me here is that you have challenged me and I propose the bet to make the challenge interesting. The $1200 won't begin to cover my time but taking your Clements order away would be payment enough.

Of course you can order another one from Chas but if I win the bet you have to allow him to deliver mine before your second order. I think that you are honorable enough to do that.

manwon
05-03-2009, 05:56 PM
Craig,

You could never back me into a corner and especially not with the weak arguments you have posed here.

Everything is not "just about the labor" Craig, that's the whole point.

Not that you will "get it" but who should get the credit for the existence of your pool room, Full Splice Billiards? Whose responsibility is it that your pool room stands as it does and who runs it? You have mentioned many times on this forum that YOU do this or you do that in YOUR business. I have never heard you say that your staff does anything, never heard you say that anyone besides YOU had anything to do with YOUR poolroom. I certainly don't know their names as you have never mentioned them.

By the logic you wish to impress upon craftsman concerning how they work and market themselves I have to think that you are the only person who conceived of, paid for, built everything, and works in your business. Is this true, do you do everything all by yourself to bring a quality poolroom to the public?

If so then I have to say you are my hero. I was part owner of a pool room in Germany called Maxie's that was a ton of work to design, renovate, and manage. There is no way we could have done it without a lot of talented and dedicated people.


John you certainly used a bad analogy in this post, because yes I do run my pool room myself. Many forum members who post on a regular basis on this forum will certainly attest to that fact. Even some members who are not local like Grady Mathews will also tell you the same thing. I opened my room in September 2004, I set up the delivery of the pool tables, along with all other equipment, and I built the counter areas with the help of a close friend, but I set the room up to my standards. I did have some help with the table assembly initially, however, I am able to do all the repairs, including recovering tables myself now. John there is nothing involved with this business that I can not or do not do myself.

I do have a gentleman who cleans up every day for unlimited table time, and I also have an apprentice who I am teaching to build custom cues who works on most Saturdays doing repair work for me. But I work 12 hours a day John seven days a week, running my business, building cues, and dealing with the public selling retail merchandise, along with table rental.

In the beginning it was necessary to do everything myself because of what I had set aside for funding. Now five years later, it is no longer necessary, but I am still young (49) and a very driven individual who likes to stay busy. When I retired from the US Army after 23 years I was 42 years old, and that was in 2003. I figure I will continue working for another 5 years until I am 54, then I will either sell my Pool Room or have some one else run it. Then I will build Custom Cues a few hour's a day from a shop in my New Home that is almost built and go fishing the rest of the day. :)

That is why you do not hear about employee's, because I really don't have any, so I suppose I am your Hero John:)

Thanks for being concerned John!!!:) Now you know the rest of the story!!!!!

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 06:07 PM
Bob, I agree with you completely above, and no one ever said that John said he builds the JB Cases himself, at least I have haven't made that claim. But, when John starts talking about raising the bar, and and taking it up a notch, and everything else he has said concerning competition he should be personally involved. I think raising the bar is great, but there is a difference between what is produced from in tooled factory and what is produced by the hands of a single craftsman.

I just think John should become more hands on, maybe then he would receive the praise that he obviously so greatly desires.

Take care Bob and thanks for your comments.

What is the difference Craig?

Lets say that you are looking at two products - cue cases if you will.

If you knew NOTHING about who made them, where they were made, or how many people worked on them what would be "the difference".

Tell us in your "expert" evaluation how you would discern the difference between these two cases?

Also, for the record, the praise I value the most isn't what could come from someone like you who knows nothing of the craft. I appreciate the compliments that everyone pays to our work, especially the ones from the collectors on this board who have extensive hands-on experience with many and most of the best cases ever made. When they say something good then I know it comes from people who know what they are talking about.

But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.

manwon
05-03-2009, 06:25 PM
How could I possibly feel threatened? Threatened by what, that the orders will all dry up because Jack or Jim or Rusty builds a KILLER case? What could any other case maker do that could possibly threatened me. What are you a psychologist now in addition to your case making expertise?

Fairly compete? So it's unfair if I choose to build a shop where I have the ability to innovate and create new ways to do things? That is somehow unfair?

There was a time when people were rewarded for doing what I am doing. Not only have I figured out how to make the cases I want to make with the ability to literally invent and implement new methods on the fly but I also managed to put five people to work through it. And also more people benefit because the things that get invented to make the custom cases better are also able to be used right away in the mass production cases.

Imagine getting Porsche designed and tested suspension and engine performance for the price of a Ford Escort. That's what my setup brings to the table.

The truth of the matter is Craig that no matter what I do you will find some way to denigrate it. If I did a video of me building a case from start to finish then you would find some way to attempt to discredit it.

However, if you'd like to make a bet then I will bet you the following - you placed an order with Chas Clements for a $1200 envelope case.

I will bet you that $1200 that I can and will make a completely tooled case that is constructed the same or similar to Rusty's case he did for you with the same level of tooling done entirely by me in the next 30 days. If I don't then I will paypal you $1200 and your case by Chas is free. If I do however make this case then you transfer your Clements order to me.

How is that? Since you want to see a JB Case that is built entirely by me I will be happy to do it if there is some incentive to do so. The incentive for me here is that you have challenged me and I propose the bet to make the challenge interesting. The $1200 won't begin to cover my time but taking your Clements order away would be payment enough.

Of course you can order another one from Chas but if I win the bet you have to allow him to deliver mine before your second order. I think that you are honorable enough to do that.


John when are you going to figure it out, it is not about the money, or how good or bad anything really is, it is all about how you personally approach the subject. John throughout this thread you have accused me of attacking you and other people. These people have posted in this thread that they did not feel attacked by my statements to them. John your ego is totally out of control, like I have said over and over again if you were not so insecure starting with my post to your thread about your new case none of this would have never happened.

Go back and read your thread John, my comments were a compliment and nothing else, I was not even the only person who thought the case was for a women, but do to your insecure attitude my post was the only one answered on the subject. Then you send me all these email saying that your case is a Rusty Melton Killer, what kind of shit is that John, you bring Rusty into something that he was never involved in from the beginning. The man has been nothing but respectful to you and everyone else here on this forum, but your jealous behavior and ego can't stand for some one else to have their day of recognition. John everyone on this forum knows how you are , the only person who doesn't seem to get it is you yourself. John sometimes there is much more to be gained by being modest than pimping yourself on a continuous basis, that is certainly one area that Rusty can without doubt teach you a great deal about!!!!!!:)

Reflect on what has been said John, it will do you a World of good brother, because there is one thing we completely agree upon you have nothing to prove to anyone, well except yourself!!!!:wink:

manwon
05-03-2009, 06:27 PM
What is the difference Craig?

Lets say that you are looking at two products - cue cases if you will.

If you knew NOTHING about who made them, where they were made, or how many people worked on them what would be "the difference".

Tell us in your "expert" evaluation how you would discern the difference between these two cases?

Also, for the record, the praise I value the most isn't what could come from someone like you who knows nothing of the craft. I appreciate the compliments that everyone pays to our work, especially the ones from the collectors on this board who have extensive hands-on experience with many and most of the best cases ever made. When they say something good then I know it comes from people who know what they are talking about.

But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.


John, I hope you don't stroked other parts of body like to attempt to stroke your own ego because there would only be a bone left!!!!! :grin:

But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.[/QUOTE]

Oh and by the way John, I hope everyone who reads this thread go's to the Leather Workers forum, and yes I am a member and I have been lurking there for some time. I hope others reading this thread go there so everyone will know that you have the same problem there with your ego and also see how you approach others involved in your craft!!!!

Dude you just don't get it!!!! All I can say is WOW

manwon
05-03-2009, 06:40 PM
Hey John have you looked at the poll to this thread, it is getting a great deal bigger, please keep pumping it up, I think this thread would have died by now if not for you!!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup:

Thanks John!!:)

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 07:15 PM
John you certainly used a bad analogy in this post, because yes I do run my pool room myself. Many forum members who post on a regular basis on this forum will certainly attest to that fact. Even some members who are not local like Grady Mathews will also tell you the same thing. I opened my room in September 2004,

No it wasn't a bad analogy at all. It was a question meant to establish a basis for discussion.

I set up the delivery of the pool tables, along with all other equipment, and I built the counter areas with the help of a close friend, but I set the room up to my standards.

So what is the difference between you "arranging and designing" and building with help and what I do? In this post you are taking all the credit for what your room is as you should.

[QUOTE]
I did have some help with the table assembly initially, however, I am able to do all the repairs, including recovering tables myself now.

Good for you. You have become self-reliant after learning from others how to do the work. I also know how to recover tables having done many of them but I prefer to let other people do that work as it's much to tedious for me. I know where my own limitations are in this regard.

John there is nothing involved with this business that I can not or do not do myself.

I would expect nothing less given your stance in this thread. That was not my point. You SHOULD be able to do everything involved in your business or at least have a working knowledge of how it should be done.

I can also do everything related to making cue cases. I said this before, I can and do use the sewing machine, I can and do run the laser, I can and do make patterns from scratch, and I can tool and dye but I don't do it because I am impatient and not very artistic in this regard. I don't ask my employees to do anything that I am not willing and able to sit down and do myself.

I do have a gentleman who cleans up every day for unlimited table time, and I also have an apprentice who I am teaching to build custom cues who works on most Saturdays doing repair work for me.

I assume you offer full disclosure to your customers about who keeps the tables clean and who installs their tips :-)

But I work 12 hours a day John seven days a week, running my business, building cues, and dealing with the public selling retail merchandise, along with table rental.

Welcome to the club.

In the beginning it was necessary to do everything myself because of what I had set aside for funding.

Again, welcome to the club.

Now five years later, it is no longer necessary, but I am still young (49) and a very driven individual who likes to stay busy. When I retired from the US Army after 23 years I was 42 years old, and that was in 2003. I figure I will continue working for another 5 years until I am 54, then I will either sell my Pool Room or have some one else run it. Then I will build Custom Cues a few hour's a day from a shop in my New Home that is almost built and go fishing the rest of the day. :)

Didn't really need all this information but it's nice to see that you are working towards a goal which makes it sad for me that you would seek to denigrate someone else who is doing the same thing.

That is why you do not hear about employee's, because I really don't have any, so I suppose I am your Hero John:)

Thanks for being concerned John!!!:) Now you know the rest of the story!!!!!

Well not quite my hero based on that story. To paraphrase you I would have been much more impressed if you had done and continue to do everything all by yourself. But based on the story it's clear that Full Splice Billiards exists because you had the vision and desire to plan it out and the wisdom to enlist help where your own skill was inadequate until such time as you had learned what you need to so that you don't need to hire others.

I am not concerned. I wanted to illustrate a point and you did a great job of doing that.

manwon
05-03-2009, 07:20 PM
No it wasn't a bad analogy at all. It was a question meant to establish a basis for discussion.

[QUOTE]I set up the delivery of the pool tables, along with all other equipment, and I built the counter areas with the help of a close friend, but I set the room up to my standards.

I would expect nothing less given your stance in this thread. That was not my point. You SHOULD be able to do everything involved in your business or at least have a working knowledge of how it should be done.

I can also do everything related to making cue cases. I said this before, I can and do use the sewing machine, I can and do run the laser, I can and do make patterns from scratch, and I can tool and dye but I don't do it because I am impatient and not very artistic in this regard. I don't ask my employees to do anything that I am not willing and able to sit down and do myself.



I assume you offer full disclosure to your customers about who keeps the tables clean and who installs their tips :-)



Welcome to the club.



Again, welcome to the club.



Didn't really need all this information but it's nice to see that you are working towards a goal which makes it sad for me that you would seek to denigrate someone else who is doing the same thing.



Well not quite my hero based on that story. To paraphrase you I would have been much more impressed if you had done and continue to do everything all by yourself. But based on the story it's clear that Full Splice Billiards exists because you had the vision and desire to plan it out and the wisdom to enlist help where your own skill was inadequate until such time as you had learned what you need to so that you don't need to hire others.

I am not concerned. I wanted to illustrate a point and you did a great job of doing that.

John, please continue to bump this thread to the top!!!:D

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 07:24 PM
Hey John have you looked at the poll to this thread, it is getting a great deal bigger, please keep pumping it up, I think this thread would have died by now if not for you!!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup:

Thanks John!!:)

My pleasure. I hope you know how to interpret the results because I am fairly certain that you think that they support your position overwhelmingly when they don't. This is why I advised you to be careful when you construct these "polls" and to think about how you word them. When they are done hastily as a way to FLAME someone then they don't always go as you think because people can see through the veneer of impartiality you project AND also you leave a lot of outs for people to disagree with your point as you did here with too many choices.

There is ONLY one choice out of your six answers that agrees with you.

So out of 68 responses at this point less than half agree with you.

Is that what you expected?

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 07:43 PM
John when are you going to figure it out, it is not about the money, or how good or bad anything really is, it is all about how you personally approach the subject. John throughout this thread you have accused me of attacking you and other people. These people have posted in this thread that they did not feel attacked by my statements to them. John your ego is totally out of control, like I have said over and over again if you were not so insecure starting with my post to your thread about your new case none of this would have never happened.

Go back and read your thread John, my comments were a compliment and nothing else, I was not even the only person who thought the case was for a women, but do to your insecure attitude my post was the only one answered on the subject. Then you send me all these email saying that your case is a Rusty Melton Killer, what kind of shit is that John, you bring Rusty into something that he was never involved in from the beginning. The man has been nothing but respectful to you and everyone else here on this forum, but your jealous behavior and ego can't stand for some one else to have their day of recognition. John everyone on this forum knows how you are , the only person who doesn't seem to get it is you yourself. John sometimes there is much more to be gained by being modest than pimping yourself on a continuous basis, that is certainly one area that Rusty can without doubt teach you a great deal about!!!!!!:)

Reflect on what has been said John, it will do you a World of good brother, because there is one thing we completely agree upon you have nothing to prove to anyone, well except yourself!!!!:wink:

Let's get something straight right now.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I NEVER SAID TO YOU THAT I THOUGHT THIS CASE IS A RUSTY MELTON KILLER.

I was having a discussion with you IN PRIVATE about cases and related something I thought was interesting and BENEFICIAL to ALL CASE MAKERS.

I told the SAME THING to Rusty and we laughed about it.

You are one to talk about pimping!

How can you write stuff pimping another person's work as if you KNOW it when all you have seen is pictures? How can you equate someone with a living legend when you have never personally experienced the work from either of them?

You just can't stand it when anyone questions your statements. Not just me, you go off on others the same way when they dare to disagree with you. The whole starting a poll to generate sympathy for your point of view tactic is quite old and boring.

I actually like you Craig. We have had our words and you continue to try and make it personal with the insults when you are beaten logically but I admire your passion and willingness to stick to your position no matter how hopeless it is.

Just please don't resort to attributing things to me that I did not say. Be at least man enough to not go that low. You should re-read our conversation and think about it again before you respond.

JB Cases
05-03-2009, 07:53 PM
John, I hope you don't stroked other parts of body like to attempt to stroke your own ego because there would only be a bone left!!!!! :grin:

[QUOTE]But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.

Oh and by the way John, I hope everyone who reads this thread go's to the Leather Workers forum, and yes I am a member and I have been lurking there for some time. I hope others reading this thread go there so everyone will know that you have the same problem there with your ego and also see how you approach others involved in your craft!!!!

Dude you just don't get it!!!! All I can say is WOW

Don't be lazy. If you have evidence of this then please post the links. You're pretty funny. While I certainly don't agree with your amateur attempt to analyze me I have to ask why you think that I would act any differently at another forum? I am a member of two forums related to my craft, www.leatherworker.net and www.sawmillcreek.org for leather working and laser engraving respectively. In both of them I have no problems with anyone because we all respect each other and try to help each other further the craft.

All my posts at the Leather Worker forum - 216 posts about the craft.
(http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=e91eb30f0e463f52fb405420e0c9904e&search_in=posts&result_type=posts)
What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

How about a tutorial on how to recover a table? How about a guide to building your own pool room?

Anything that you can point to that means anything?

manwon
05-03-2009, 09:31 PM
Let's get something straight right now.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I NEVER SAID TO YOU THAT I THOUGHT THIS CASE IS A RUSTY MELTON KILLER.

I was having a discussion with you IN PRIVATE about cases and related something I thought was interesting and BENEFICIAL to ALL CASE MAKERS.

I told the SAME THING to Rusty and we laughed about it.

You are one to talk about pimping!

How can you write stuff pimping another person's work as if you KNOW it when all you have seen is pictures? How can you equate someone with a living legend when you have never personally experienced the work from either of them?

You just can't stand it when anyone questions your statements. Not just me, you go off on others the same way when they dare to disagree with you. The whole starting a poll to generate sympathy for your point of view tactic is quite old and boring.

I actually like you Craig. We have had our words and you continue to try and make it personal with the insults when you are beaten logically but I admire your passion and willingness to stick to your position no matter how hopeless it is.

Just please don't resort to attributing things to me that I did not say. Be at least man enough to not go that low. You should re-read our conversation and think about it again before you respond.



DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

John you are the expert at putting words in the mouths of others you have done so throughout this thread on more than one occasion, so before you make this statement to some one else take care not to do it yourself. I am not your child, so don't come off with this don't do as I do, do as I say crap!!!!!:grin:


I NEVER SAID TO YOU THAT I THOUGHT THIS CASE IS A RUSTY MELTON KILLER.

No John, you didn't exactly say it in that context, your exact words were that your customer was over the Moon about your case, and your customer wanted a Melton Killer, which obviously your customer and in some small way you thought you had built.

So on this point you are partly correct!!!!!:)

I told the SAME THING to Rusty and we laughed about it.

You are one to talk about pimping!

How can you write stuff pimping another person's work as if you KNOW it when all you have seen is pictures? How can you equate someone with a living legend when you have never personally experienced the work from either of them?

I owe Rusty a call later, I will ask him how funny he thinks it is that you brought him into this entire thread, knowing Rusty he did most likely laugh, that is what a class act like Rusty would do.!

John I will bet that when you were a child you did not play well with other's. I bet you were type that took all the toys and would not let others play with them. Just like you do here, if you do not receive enough attention you do anything to get that attention back.

John I have said this before and I will say it again, I respect your accomplishments more than you will ever know, because, John I have also achieved much by hard work just like you. I also was not born with the proverbial Silver Spoon in my mouth, and everything I have today, I worked hard and sacrificed for.

The only reason, in my opinion we have exchanges like this is because at least to me you come off like the biggest Dog at the food bowel, no one else gets to eat until you have had your fill. The tension involving cases started when Rusty's work started becoming popular on the forum. You took this as invasion of your territory, and had to attack any source because it was taking attention away from you. At first you said his work is not close to the top case makers on the forum, now in a matter of months you are equating his name with them. John, have you added Rusty to your website yet? I know that up until recently he was one of the few who was not listed, maybe you just did not realize that you had over looked it.

I also Like you John, because you also stand up for your beliefs even if I do not agree with them. That is one thing we both certainly have in common.

Take Care John!!:)

manwon
05-03-2009, 09:43 PM
[QUOTE=manwon;1801355]John, I hope you don't stroked other parts of body like to attempt to stroke your own ego because there would only be a bone left!!!!! :grin:

[/B]



Don't be lazy. If you have evidence of this then please post the links. You're pretty funny. While I certainly don't agree with your amateur attempt to analyze me I have to ask why you think that I would act any differently at another forum? I am a member of two forums related to my craft, www.leatherworker.net and www.sawmillcreek.org for leather working and laser engraving respectively. In both of them I have no problems with anyone because we all respect each other and try to help each other further the craft.

All my posts at the Leather Worker forum - 216 posts about the craft.
(http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=e91eb30f0e463f52fb405420e0c9904e&search_in=posts&result_type=posts)
What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

How about a tutorial on how to recover a table? How about a guide to building your own pool room?

Anything that you can point to that means anything?

What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

Watch it John I am disabled so the crack about being malformed is a little out of line!!!!!!!!!!:eek::grin:

John unlike you I have nothing to prove to you here on the forum or here in my community. I am very satisfied and happy with what I do for others on a daily basis, and to me when you do something for others the PRIVATE SATISFACTION GAINED IS JUST THAT PRIVATE. But I will say this John nothing is more rewarding than what people do for others without alerting the Media. I do not need to Glorify myself for it, that is what being secure in word and deed is all about.

But thanks for asking about my daily good deeds John, I am glad that you are concerned, but I also think if you only knew you would not know what to say!!!!!!:)

watchez
05-03-2009, 11:33 PM
[QUOTE=JB Cases;1801447]

What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

Watch it John I am disabled so the crack about being malformed is a little out of line!!!!!!!!!!:eek::grin:



Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

Now back to John and him being so open - While we have John in this frame of mind, how much does Zhen get paid? And would you encourage Zhen to open up his own shop? I would think you would since you allow him to make knick knacks to sell on ebay. Ask Zhen how much it would cost for one of those really thin credit card holders.

manwon
05-04-2009, 12:40 AM
[QUOTE=manwon;1801599]

Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

Now back to John and him being so open - While we have John in this frame of mind, how much does Zhen get paid? And would you encourage Zhen to open up his own shop? I would think you would since you allow him to make knick knacks to sell on ebay. Ask Zhen how much it would cost for one of those really thin credit card holders.


Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

I completely understood what his comments were directed to, that was the purpose of smile at the end of the post. It seems no mater how hard we try our thoughts are not always transmitted well on the INTERNET. I was actually trying to bring a little levity into this thread, John is so tight he may explode at any moment, now that would be a mess and a shame.

Oh and by the way, I do have 100% disability service connected according to the VA, but I am certainly not malformed, so my comment was partially on target.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention though, I thought my intent was clear, however, obviously I was incorrect.

Thanks again.

BVal
05-04-2009, 12:45 AM
Does anybody know what time it is?

BVal

ribdoner
05-04-2009, 12:48 AM
Does anybody know what time it is?

BVal


depends...(on where you are):)

BVal
05-04-2009, 12:50 AM
depends...(on where you are):)
Sometimes I don't even know that but right now I am in my room. :)

BVal

snipershot
05-04-2009, 01:54 AM
Craig, there is no point in arguing with JB Cases. Its like arguing with my beagle, he will bark and bark, but in the end, he just doesnt understand what people say.:D I think if a product has a logo, it doesnt have to be made by a certain person, but if its signed, it should be made by the person holding the pen. Signing someone elses work is like plagerism if you ask me, but thats just my opinion.



Joe

dave sutton
05-04-2009, 02:37 AM
shesh. i read thru the forst 3 pages of this and my brain hurts. im not reading anymore.

personally im on both sides of the fence. i dont know if it was me craig was refering to in the mottey situation but i will tell the story. i got paul to make me a cue back in like 2000 or so. got it loved it. i went to sbe and saw the same exact cue made by a guy names jim white. i found out he made cues in pauls shop by jmw and traded it immed. i was very very mad.

look who JMW turned out to be

now that im in the buisness. i see how bogged down i can get and im nobody. so i could only imagine. ive done my homework. a good point was made earlier about jerry f, mike c jmw and others working under the masters. as a matter of fact barry made alot of forearms for gus. so when you buy the gus and barry made the forearm what do you do? fred didnt just pop out knowing how to make tads cues. he learned over the years and im sure many tads have had freds hands on them

to sum it up ive deff changed my views. its not like these guys just grabed any yokel off the streets and let them build a cue for you. they pick the best person for the job with care and tolerences and visions they mimic their own. most will not risk their buisness/career just to make a few more cues (DP) i trust their choices and as long as its a quility product its ok in my book

graig. i love u man. you have a passion for this buisness that i truely respect even tho we dont always agree

jb. sexy case man.....

SEACREST OUT!!!

JB Cases
05-04-2009, 03:45 AM
[QUOTE=manwon;1801599]

Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

Now back to John and him being so open - While we have John in this frame of mind, how much does Zhen get paid? And would you encourage Zhen to open up his own shop? I would think you would since you allow him to make knick knacks to sell on ebay. Ask Zhen how much it would cost for one of those really thin credit card holders.

I pay him what he asked me for and also his rent. I don't "allow" him to make things and sell them - he was doing that well before I met him and the quality of his work is one of the reasons I hired him to work for me full time. He has been the teacher for the other people in our shop who have started to make leather goods.

From talking to other people who employ full time leather carvers I am told that what I pay is about three times the going rate. I don't believe that the exact amount is a subject of discussion.

Would I encourage him to open his own cue case shop? No I would not. I asked him not to do that and I trust him fully that he won't do it. However if he did then it would not matter to me as I know that his cases wouldn't be the same as mine because he would be doing them the way he wanted to do them and not the way I want. I do know that if he follows what I have taught him about case construction and detail that his cases would be world class.

Zhen Hai is not the only person who does tooling for me. He is the only one who is employed full time though.

Zhen Hai gets good money from his leather goods in China. Up to $200-$300 for some purses and backpacks he has made. He gets $20-$50 for wallets regularly. I have already said to him we should start selling his stuff to the USA. So I will ask him about your credit card holder. I'd show the one I designed for my personal use that I have been using for two year's but I am sure it's not what you are thinking of.

Everyone in my shop gets paid much more than they would if they were doing the same job elsewhere. All of my friends who own factories tell me I pay too much and am spoiling my staff. Then in the same breath they complain about how bad their workers are. I tell them something my British friend with a bricklaying business told me years ago, "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys."

JB Cases
05-04-2009, 04:14 AM
The only reason, in my opinion we have exchanges like this is because at least to me you come off like the biggest Dog at the food bowel, no one else gets to eat until you have had your fill. The tension involving cases started when Rusty's work started becoming popular on the forum. You took this as invasion of your territory, and had to attack any source because it was taking attention away from you. At first you said his work is not close to the top case makers on the forum, now in a matter of months you are equating his name with them. John, have you added Rusty to your website yet? I know that up until recently he was one of the few who was not listed, maybe you just did not realize that you had over looked it.

I also Like you John, because you also stand up for your beliefs even if I do not agree with them. That is one thing we both certainly have in common.

Take Care John!!:)

I didn't overlook it at all. I add anyone who has a web presence (website) whose work I feel merits a recommendation.

I don't understand why you spend so much time trying to ascribe motivation to what I do. Unless you are a psychologist you should really just stick to the discussion and the points that are made.

Look it up on the history, every comment I have made to Rusty about his cases has been highly complimentary from the first case until the last.

I took exception with your characterization of Rusty's work not with Rusty's because Rusty doesn't come out and say he is the greatest thing since Chas Clements.

Do you remember when Dean Campbell was promoting his new Deano sneakies that were made by an unknown cue maker? Remember how he said that they were the best hitting cues ever and better than all the custom cues he owned and so on.... or something close to that? What did you do? You were quite critical of this and sought to discredit Dean's characterization through talking about how it wasn't worth the money Dean was asking for it. Remember we had an argument over that?

How is this any different when you then come out and start touting a new case maker as being as good as one of the best who ever lived and you haven't even seen the work except in pictures? That's all I took exception to, the fact that you set yourself up as someone who is intimate with the work of both and is qualified to rank them as equals.

I never said Rusty's work isn't close to the top makers on this forum, who are they anyway? Are you going to make a list? I said that it is my opinion that if anyone is the heir apparent to Chas Clements then it is Marc Turcasso, MatCase on this forum. And that opinion is based on my first hand knowledge of Chas Clement's style and methods when compared to what I can see of Marc's cases.

Yes Craig I "come off" as highly opinionated about cue cases because in fact I am. I am very sensitive to keeping things factual and real when it comes to cases both in construction and design. This attitude has not changed since my first postings on the Rec.Sport.Billiard group in 1996ish and there are plenty of folks here who can verify that.

I also share a lot of what I know and try to help others get a good start in their case making. Other than Chas Clements in the distant past and a little advice on tooling that Jim Murnak gave me two years ago no other case maker has ever offered me any help to improve my product. Yet I do this all the time. Does it sometimes come off as bragging or egoistic? I am sure it does as I have never been the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to making everyone happy with my speeches. Still though the fact remains that you can find a lot of good information about how to build cases that I have shared over the years. Ask Rusty and he will tell you what he and I discussed in private concerning the way he makes cases.

But be that as it is, another good friend pointed out to me the futility of carrying on discussions like this on AZ or elsewhere. I promised him to stop and I will.

Craig, you can have the last word on this subject. You are absolutely correct in that the time I spent on this thread could have and should have been spent doing more work that creates.

As I said the subject is a good one and has a lot of merit. Here is an example that brings your point home.

When I was doing the pictures for the new Sterling cases I went to a local studio and talked with the owner who was also the main photographer. I ordered and paid for something around 600 images. When I went to review them they were horrible. I asked the owner if he did the work and he said that his assitants did it - then I asked him if he had checked it before I was summoned to view the images, he said no.

So I told him that I expected them to be done right and that I didn't care WHO did them but I wasn't accepting crap. So he did the new ones and they turned out fairly good. When I went there I had no reason to assume that the pictures would be anything less than great. As it turned out the first ones weren't and luckily this was something that could be redone.

If however the first ones had been right then I would never have known the difference unless I was very very very familiar with the owner's work.

The point of all this is as I said it's each person's preference as to what is important to them when getting something from someone. And it's their responsibility to do all the due diligence to insure as best they can that their wishes are respected.

It's unrealistic to expect all craftsmen to work alone all the time. It is realistic to expect them to be involved in the product before it is presented to the customer.

When I sign something then I am saying to my customer that I stand good for what I am giving them. I am saying to them that all that I am is invested in this case and I give it to you with pride in my and my team's accomplishment.

JimS
05-04-2009, 07:44 AM
If I have a custom cue made for me by a cue builder I want him to do the work.

If I have a custom case made for me by a custom cas builder I want the case to be made to my specs by craftsmen who are supervised.

That's me.

manwon
05-04-2009, 10:51 AM
Craig, there is no point in arguing with JB Cases. Its like arguing with my beagle, he will bark and bark, but in the end, he just doesnt understand what people say.:D I think if a product has a logo, it doesnt have to be made by a certain person, but if its signed, it should be made by the person holding the pen. Signing someone elses work is like plagerism if you ask me, but thats just my opinion.



Joe



Joe you win the best post to this thread nothing could be more true!!!!!!

D I think if a product has a logo, it doesnt have to be made by a certain person, but if its signed, it should be made by the person holding the pen. Signing someone elses work is like plagerism if you ask me, but thats just my opinion.

Thanks Joe

manwon
05-04-2009, 11:14 AM
I pay him what he asked me for and also his rent. I don't "allow" him to make things and sell them - he was doing that well before I met him and the quality of his work is one of the reasons I hired him to work for me full time. He has been the teacher for the other people in our shop who have started to make leather goods.

From talking to other people who employ full time leather carvers I am told that what I pay is about three times the going rate. I don't believe that the exact amount is a subject of discussion.

Would I encourage him to open his own cue case shop? No I would not. I asked him not to do that and I trust him fully that he won't do it. However if he did then it would not matter to me as I know that his cases wouldn't be the same as mine because he would be doing them the way he wanted to do them and not the way I want. I do know that if he follows what I have taught him about case construction and detail that his cases would be world class.

Zhen Hai is not the only person who does tooling for me. He is the only one who is employed full time though.

Zhen Hai gets good money from his leather goods in China. Up to $200-$300 for some purses and backpacks he has made. He gets $20-$50 for wallets regularly. I have already said to him we should start selling his stuff to the USA. So I will ask him about your credit card holder. I'd show the one I designed for my personal use that I have been using for two year's but I am sure it's not what you are thinking of.

Everyone in my shop gets paid much more than they would if they were doing the same job elsewhere. All of my friends who own factories tell me I pay too much and am spoiling my staff. Then in the same breath they complain about how bad their workers are. I tell them something my British friend with a bricklaying business told me years ago, "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys."





"if you pay peanuts you get monkeys."
John that is only in the USA, the Reason US Companies are setting up Business in China, including yourself is because in China if you pay peanuts you get Skilled People!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;) Now there is nothing wrong with it, it's Capitalism at it's finest, but until you pay these people at least the American minimum wage for their hard work don't act like your their savor!!!:)

Now argue that fact John, tell everyone that is not true.:)

dave sutton
05-04-2009, 04:23 PM
cost of living is different everywhere. that shouldnt be an issue. each state has its own min wage requirement right?

CocoboloCowboy
05-04-2009, 04:34 PM
John that is only in the USA, the Reason US Companies are setting up Business in China, including yourself is because in China if you pay peanuts you get Skilled People!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;) Now there is nothing wrong with it, it's Capitalism at it's finest, but until you pay these people at least the American minimum wage for their hard work don't act like your their savor!!!:)

Now argue that fact John, tell everyone that is not true.:)


manwon I think you a 33% correct, but many Americans do not want to work in factory jobs any longer, kids today don't seem to want to start at the bottom.

I know you are U.S. Army Retired, and had over 20 years plus on Active duty in the Army. honestly was the work ethic of the soldiers when you joined up or were drafted the same as the year you retired?

I know several Senior USAF NCO who are stationed down the road from me who complain about the "New" Airmen who have no work ethic, and want to do 8 hours, and go home to watch TV. These Sr. NCO's are responsible for keep the F-16 Flying, and Not Crashing due to maintenance failures.

The "New" Airman what what the Recruiter told them 8 hour shift, a great place to live, great food, and bennies.

Irish634
05-04-2009, 07:22 PM
It's really hard to tell when you make statements like this that are presented as fact but in fact are just opinion that is ignorant of the actual process.



That's funny

dr9ball
05-04-2009, 07:33 PM
Love the Case John great design.

nasc
05-04-2009, 08:49 PM
manwon I think you a 33% correct, but many Americans do not want to work in factory jobs any longer, kids today don't seem to want to start at the bottom.

I know you are U.S. Army Retired, and had over 20 years plus on Active duty in the Army. honestly was the work ethic of the soldiers when you joined up or were drafted the same as the year you retired?

I know several Senior USAF NCO who are stationed down the road from me who complain about the "New" Airmen who have no work ethic, and want to do 8 hours, and go home to watch TV. These Sr. NCO's are responsible for keep the F-16 Flying, and Not Crashing due to maintenance failures.

The "New" Airman what what the Recruiter told them 8 hour shift, a great place to live, great food, and bennies.

I was a "New" Airman, 1 Feb 76. The same quote "no work ethic" etc. applied then as now. We were told great food and great place to live, 8 hour shifts etc.. The Recruiters lied just as well back then as they do now. You're joining the fricking service no matter which branch. You are serving your country and putting it all on the line. Whether it's 1909 or 2009. "You sell your soul to the company store". No less no more. As for no one wanting to start at the bottom,the country still needs ditch diggers. With Obambas plan ditch diggers are going to make big $$$.
Glen

CocoboloCowboy
05-05-2009, 04:37 AM
I was a "New" Airman, 1 Feb 76. The same quote "no work ethic" etc. applied then as now. We were told great food and great place to live, 8 hour shifts etc.. The Recruiters lied just as well back then as they do now. You're joining the fricking service no matter which branch. You are serving your country and putting it all on the line. Whether it's 1909 or 2009. "You sell your soul to the company store". No less no more. As for no one wanting to start at the bottom,the country still needs ditch diggers. With Obambas plan ditch diggers are going to make big $$$.
Glen


Well when I was young I was not too good to do any work offer for GREEN, I wash dishes, bussed Table, clean machinery in a machine shop, did janitorial work, hell in Jr. High School I was dishes in exchange for lunch, and other wise would have not had lunch. I thought that job was great at I got 60 CENT Food Credit EACH DAY!

I have a step grandson who could get a job tomorrow at the Movies but he refuses to take that job because he don't want to be seen by his friend working there.

I honestly do not see the problem of being seen working, except he would have money to spend. but than he has it now as his parent give him stuff, and money to spend.

MilwShooter
05-05-2009, 06:35 AM
The Poll question is confusing, it sounds like this: "Do you like sun or rain?" with the options of yes, sometimes, no etc..... Not sure how to answer that one.

manwon
05-05-2009, 10:09 AM
The Poll question is confusing, it sounds like this: "Do you like sun or rain?" with the options of yes, sometimes, no etc..... Not sure how to answer that one.

No prtoblem and your not alone, I am kinda confused and I made the dam thing, next time I will make things more clear.

Thanks for your post.

Cue Guru
05-05-2009, 12:04 PM
OK!

Well, I feel I might be sticking my finger in the fan here, but here's my 2 cents and why...

Several years ago I had Joss (east) make me a cue. I assumed Dan would be making it, because he was supposed to sign it when it was completed.

In one of the many phone conversations (did not have the Internet yet myself) I learned that his son Steve would be making the cue. So, I had Steve sign it.

Steve was taken aback by that request, as apparently I was the first one to ask for him to sign it.

I said "If you are making it, you should sign it." Dan made great cues a long time ago. I have a Joss now (but that custom is long gone). The current Joss east is not what an old Dan Janes was, that much is for sure.

They strayed too far from the pure spirit of the crafted cue.

The cue I got was fine- great player with a sold hit. I was a bit put off by the fact that I had ordered a 59" cue and was delivered a 60" cue. That detail is one that should not have been overlooked in my opinion. I had Paul Drexler cut one of the shafts 1/2 inch and put another Ivory ferrule on it, and I cut 1/2 inch off the butt cap. Fixed.

When one person has responsibility for the entire process (even if he does not do all the work himself) I feel the final product quality speaks for itself.

manwon
05-05-2009, 12:21 PM
OK!

Well, I feel I might be sticking my finger in the fan here, but here's my 2 cents and why...

Several years ago I had Joss (east) make me a cue. I assumed Dan would be making it, because he was supposed to sign it when it was completed.

In one of the many phone conversations (did not have the Internet yet myself) I learned that his son Steve would be making the cue. So, I had Steve sign it.

Steve was taken aback by that request, as apparently I was the first one to ask for him to sign it.

I said "If you are making it, you should sign it." Dan made great cues a long time ago. I have a Joss now (but that custom is long gone). The current Joss east is not what an old Dan Janes was, that much is for sure.

They strayed too far from the pure spirit of the crafted cue.

The cue I got was fine- great player with a sold hit. I was a bit put off by the fact that I had ordered a 59" cue and was delivered a 60" cue. That detail is one that should not have been overlooked in my opinion. I had Paul Drexler cut one of the shafts 1/2 inch and put another Ivory ferrule on it, and I cut 1/2 inch off the butt cap. Fixed.

When one person has responsibility for the entire process (even if he does not do all the work himself) I feel the final product quality speaks for itself.

I think this was a well thought out and intelligent Post, I think you can keep your fingers for now!!:)

Thanks for your Post!

poolplayer2093
06-04-2009, 09:06 PM
manwon I think you a 33% correct, but many Americans do not want to work in factory jobs any longer, kids today don't seem to want to start at the bottom.

I know you are U.S. Army Retired, and had over 20 years plus on Active duty in the Army. honestly was the work ethic of the soldiers when you joined up or were drafted the same as the year you retired?

I know several Senior USAF NCO who are stationed down the road from me who complain about the "New" Airmen who have no work ethic, and want to do 8 hours, and go home to watch TV. These Sr. NCO's are responsible for keep the F-16 Flying, and Not Crashing due to maintenance failures.

The "New" Airman what what the Recruiter told them 8 hour shift, a great place to live, great food, and bennies.

i think the times when americans didn't want to work in factories has come and gone. people're so hurt for work they'll take what ever they can find

to keep my post on topic i think it shouldn't matter as long as the customer is happy with what he paid for.
i guess resale could be an issue though. i ran into a cue a few years ago that played great and looked great. but because nobody knew who made it i doubt if i tried to sell it on here i'd get more than 600 for it. i guess when it comes to resale a name could be important

mullyman
06-04-2009, 09:13 PM
Well, I've never heard even a rumor about Jim White working on Mottey's cues but, if it did happen, I wouldn't be too miffed about it. I mean c'mon, Jim is established well enough by now that his work is golden.
MULLY
I say this because I own Mottey cues and JMW's.