PDA

View Full Version : Need Help With Harvey Martin/ Bert Schrager -Apprentice/Cuemaker Tree


billiardshot
05-02-2009, 12:13 PM
Need Help With Harvey Martin/ Bert Schrager -Apprentice/Cuemaker Tree

Would appreciate any help with information who apprentice under Harvey Martin and Bert Schrager to finish Martin/Schrager Cuemaker Tree see Sample below.

How much your cue can fetch depend not only on workmanship, but also their pedigree.

I gather the list below mentally, so if I am wrong please correct me... I'm awared that some cuemakers/apprentice might apprentice under other cuemakers!

95060

JoeyInCali
05-02-2009, 12:15 PM
Great list.

mamono
05-02-2009, 12:55 PM
Tad Kohara -> Fred Kohara, from father to son. I had no idea that Tad was an apprentice to someone. I just thought he bought equipment from someone. Then again, I don't really know that much about Tad Kohara, but would like to know more.

billiardshot
05-02-2009, 04:40 PM
Tad Kohara -> Fred Kohara, from father to son. I had no idea that Tad was an apprentice to someone. I just thought he bought equipment from someone. Then again, I don't really know that much about Tad Kohara, but would like to know more.

Mamono, Tad Kohara - was Influenced by Harvey Martin and a friend, The old TADs very similar to a Martin Cue. Question would be how much adviced or training did Tad get from H. Martin and over how many months or years?

Just as David P. Kersenbrock work with Bert Schrager, But for how many months or years?

Just as some source say Dave Barenbrugge - was Kersenbrock 3rd disciple [apprentice], But Dave only mention Dieckman in his Bio, in the "Blue Book of Pool Cue". At Dieckman for 2 years.

Lot of questions and surprise hope to be found!

Bob Watson

poolhustler
05-02-2009, 09:56 PM
Brady Andreson apprenticed under Bert Schrager also, I believe.

I alos think that Mike Montalvo worked with Tim Padgett for a while.

Tiddler
05-02-2009, 10:05 PM
Jeff Carter was working for Bert when I was living in California in the early 80's.

billiardshot
05-03-2009, 05:07 AM
Brady Andreson apprenticed under Bert Schrager also, I believe.

I alos think that Mike Montalvo worked with Tim Padgett for a while.

Poolhustler, Not Friendly with the name Brady Anderson or Mike Montalvo can you enlighten me with a little Bio or more detail?

Here an updates. I thought there would be more input, but then it is the weekend.

95117

BHQ
05-03-2009, 05:14 AM
Need Help With Harvey Martin/ Bert Schrager -Apprentice/Cuemaker Tree

Would appreciate any help with information who apprentice under Harvey Martin and Bert Schrager to finish Martin/Schrager Cuemaker Tree see Sample below.

How much your cue can fetch depend not only on workmanship, but also their pedigree.

I gather the list below mentally, so if I am wrong please correct me... I'm awared that some cuemakers/apprentice might apprentice under other cuemakers!

95060
that is neat bob!!!
next to my name , add: "player to be named later" :wink:

poolhustler
05-03-2009, 10:05 AM
Louie Ochoa from Osarah Custom Cues worked for Tim Padgett off and on for about 7 years also.

Brady Andreson (you misspelled his last name) works out of Thousand Oaks area in CA and strangely enough, no one has really heard of him. I don't know if he is a full time cue maker or not. He sells his cues through Alpha Cue.

Mike Montalvo is from Rancho Cucamonga?? area of CA and I believe is good friends with Ariel Carmeli.

Sorry, I'm lacking on details...:)

billiardshot
05-03-2009, 10:53 AM
Poolhustler, Thank for the Correction and addition information.

Brent Thank. your apprentice will be added in due time - Keystone Beer right !!

Newer updated tree.

I realize some cuemaker apprentice under other cuemaker. Sample Ed Young apprentice or learn from Craig Peterson. Or that DPK work with four different shops [counting his own].


95158

12squared
05-03-2009, 12:36 PM
I just emailed Bert to see if he can remember them all. I'll update you once/if I hear back from him.

I worked with Bert in early 1977 for about 5-6 months doing inlay work for him before going back to school. It was a trip. Pat & Bert remain good friends.

Dave

billiardshot
05-03-2009, 12:59 PM
Thank You 12squared! I be waiting for your Reply.
Do you want your name added to the tree?

12squared
05-03-2009, 08:04 PM
Thank You 12squared! I be waiting for your Reply.
Do you want your name added to the tree?

No, but thanks for asking. I haven't touched wood since, other than playing with the cues.

poolhustler
05-03-2009, 08:11 PM
Talked to Mike Montalvo today at Hardtimes, he never worked under Tim Padgett. He said he worked under Judd.

I collect Schragers and am good friends with Bert and Pat. I can call them if anything needs clarification. They are good people in my book!!

Russ......

billiardshot
05-04-2009, 04:54 AM
Russ and Dave I appreciate the information you guy are giving.

Dave I honor your request to not be put on the tree. But I think you should!

To all AZ member this Tree is free to use, but understand it still a work in progress and may not be 100% correct. Sample did Mike Lambros apprentice/ work with Bert Schrager when he was in Calif.?

The Cuemaker Tree is the Newness one


95263

poolhustler
05-04-2009, 07:24 AM
I'll give Bert a call today and ask him about Mike Lambros and others that he worked with.

Birk1
05-04-2009, 09:16 AM
I have talked with the Robinsons at length...never realized John worked with Harvey

thanks

Ryan

billiardshot
05-04-2009, 10:28 AM
Here an update Cuemaker Tree. Again if there any mistake or question Please advise.

95294

12squared
05-04-2009, 11:55 AM
I spoke w/Pat this morning (Bert's wife) and she said that Bert did receive my email about the tree. Unfortunately, Bery is experiencing another health issue so I have no new information to add. If/when I receive updated info, I will post it.

Dave

billiardshot
05-04-2009, 12:35 PM
Dave, Sorry to hear about Bert Health. I know Howard Vermillion and Kenneth "Stu" Mortenson need inlay work for Bert. But Mortenson building cue now. You know the list wouldn't be completed with out your name. Dave I'm ashame to say I forgotten your last Name!!!!

I will be adding other item to this Tree as my search deepness.

The New Upated Tree.

95306

mamono
05-04-2009, 01:12 PM
Why are there two Matt Bender's? I had no idea that Al Romero was an apprentice to Tad Kohara...! Where did this info come from?

poolhustler
05-04-2009, 01:18 PM
Is Al Romero "Little Al" from Hartimes??

I won't bother Bert with a phone call if he is not feeling well.

12squared
05-04-2009, 01:46 PM
Dave, Sorry to hear about Bert Health. I know Howard Vermillion and Kenneth "Stu" Mortenson need inlay work for Bert. But Mortenson building cue now. You know the list wouldn't be completed with out your name. Dave I'm ashame to say I forgotten your last Name!!!!

I will be adding other item to this Tree as my search deepness.

The New Upated Tree.

95306

Please do not add my name, I am not a cue builder and that's what this tree is about "Cue Makers Tree"...whom has learned/influenced from whom. Since I have not continued making cues, it would just mess up the list. But my last name is Gross.

Seeing this list is a lot of fun for me since I have had the pleasure of meeting Harvey Martin, spending 2 afternoons with him and having worked briefly with Bert. Harvey was good friends w/Allen Gilbert, the great 3-cushion player. Harvey watched us play for a whole afternoon once at someone's home and...

Being w/Harvey Martin was like spending time w/my grandfather. He once he took me to the hardware store and helped me buy glue (yellow wood glue), knife and sharpening stone for tip work, then we went to his apartment and he showed me how he retipped a cue. He used to retip all the great billiard players shafts back in the 40s/50s. I still get that warm feeling thinking and typing about it. That was a memory I will never forget. I wish I had one of his cues. :(

Dave

Black-Balled
05-04-2009, 01:50 PM
No, but thanks for asking. I haven't touched wood since, other than playing with the cues.


There's a joke in there somewhere...:eek:

poolhustler
05-04-2009, 01:52 PM
Hi Dave,

Bert and Pat have mentioned you many times during our conversations!!

I think I remember Bert saying that he had a partially finished cue that he was working on for you. Did you ever get one??

I did end up calling Pat just to make sure Bert was Ok. He had a bladder infection and is doing much better!! :)

Russ....

12squared
05-04-2009, 01:56 PM
There's a joke in there somewhere...:eek:

Why am I not surprised it was you to make the comment. I just learned there's a Gabriel billiard table in the senior's center in Greeley, about 1/2 hour from me. I might check it out one day.

Again, thanks for the "wood" reference :thumbup:

Dave

Black-Balled
05-04-2009, 02:01 PM
Dammit. I tried to censor myself too. Honestly!

Fail!

12squared
05-04-2009, 02:02 PM
Hi Dave,

Bert and Pat have mentioned you many times during our conversations!!

I think I remember Bert saying that he had a partially finished cue that he was working on for you. Did you ever get one??

I did end up calling Pat just to make sure Bert was Ok. He had a bladder infection and is doing much better!! :)

Russ....

Russ,

I'm not sure when your conversation took place. I have a cue that Bert made for me in the late 80's, which I still have. And I had him make me a sneaky cue which has a fanastic shaft - I'm guessing that was in the mid 90's. But that's it. Maybe he was making me one as a surprise :thumbup:. But if so, that would never be finished.

The cue I got from him in the late 80's I carelessly hit the wrap portion against the edge of a frieds lathe while showing him and it made a big a$$ dent in the leather wrap. But the wrap felt so good I didn't want to mess with it so it's been there since the beginning. Now it's truly a 1-of-a-kind. :eek:. Bert did one of the best pigskin leather wraps in the business back then.

Dave

poolhustler
05-04-2009, 02:22 PM
Russ,

I'm not sure when your conversation took place. I have a cue that Bert made for me in the late 80's, which I still have. And I had him make me a sneaky cue which has a fanastic shaft - I'm guessing that was in the mid 90's. But that's it. Maybe he was making me one as a surprise :thumbup:. But if so, that would never be finished.

The cue I got from him in the late 80's I carelessly hit the wrap portion against the edge of a frieds lathe while showing him and it made a big a$$ dent in the leather wrap. But the wrap felt so good I didn't want to mess with it so it's been there since the beginning. Now it's truly a 1-of-a-kind. :eek:. Bert did one of the best pigskin leather wraps in the business back then.

Dave


Hmmmmmm.. maybe I shouldn't have said anything :confused:

I have pictures of his last 6 cues, 4 of which I bought. One was for one of Lou's daughters, a purple heart cue and the other/last I thought was for you.

I'll ask Pat next time I visit them, which should be soon.

Best,

Russ...

billiardshot
05-04-2009, 03:11 PM
Why are there two Matt Bender's? I had no idea that Al Romero was an apprentice to Tad Kohara...! Where did this info come from?

Matt Bender is Mike Bender brother and replace Mike at Omega/DPK in 1991. Matt credit Both His brother and Dpk.

Al Romero [Lil AL of Hardtime Billiard] was a friend of Tad and visit his shop and learn lot from Tad.

Most information fron The Blue Book of Pool Cue and Internet, Cuemaker Website.

As I stated earlier this a work in progress and may not 100% correct. And some apprenctice under other Cuemaker. Shh!!! how many remember or knew Dieckman working with Stout in 1991 in North Carolina?

Again thank all!

billiardshot
05-04-2009, 03:22 PM
Please do not add my name, I am not a cue builder and that's what this tree is about "Cue Makers Tree"...whom has learned/influenced from whom. Since I have not continued making cues, it would just mess up the list. But my last name is Gross.
Dave

Ok Dave I will honor your request for now. That the other part I will be working on Other people who work for these Cuemaker.

Just as Bill Johnson does Dieckman Inlay, but have built his own cue.
Bob Watson

Rich93
05-04-2009, 04:30 PM
I didn't know his first name was Kenneth, but I believe Stu's last name is Mortson, not Mortenson. He did pantograph work for Bert and others and lastly with Ray Schuler. He's made some very fancy cues. He came to cuemaking late in life and is now 84 years old. I played billiards with him recently. He's full of good stories.

billiardshot
05-04-2009, 06:30 PM
I didn't know his first name was Kenneth, but I believe Stu's last name is Mortson, not Mortenson. He did pantograph work for Bert and others and lastly with Ray Schuler. He's made some very fancy cues. He came to cuemaking late in life and is now 84 years old. I played billiards with him recently. He's full of good stories.

Rich93, "Blue Book of Pool Cue", page 542, show Stu Mortenson, write up have Kenneth. I will do a search with Stu Mortson, to see what come up. Everything else I agree with. Thank for your input.

billiardshot
05-04-2009, 08:16 PM
Here another Sample of how the apprentice cuemaker tree will be broken down.
Again this not 100% correct or done. It's work in progress.

95372

billiardshot
05-05-2009, 04:55 AM
Newness update

95386

billiardshot
05-07-2009, 05:06 AM
Newness update. Does anyone remember Doug Ketchum and what he doing now?

95579

poolhustler
05-08-2009, 07:52 AM
Newness update. Does anyone remember Doug Ketchum and what he doing now?

Wow, that name sounds familiar!

Did Doug work with Bert Schrager for a little while??

He was from back east?

I think I remember Bert mentioning him....:confused:

cuedaddy
05-08-2009, 08:28 AM
Verry! Cool
Could you Pm me when its completed so I can add it to poolwiki (http://poolgoog.com/poolwiki)

filluptieu
05-08-2009, 09:00 AM
does anyone have pics of H martins cases? i wanna do a tribute Martin case

billiardshot
05-08-2009, 11:39 AM
does anyone have pics of H martins cases? i wanna do a tribute Martin case

Phillip, check here http://www.chalkers.com/id496.htm

cuedaddy
Verry! Cool
Could you Pm me when its completed so I can add it to poolwiki

Be happy to or you may use what here.

Poolhustler, read what Chris [cueman] posted

Schrager's apprentice list and Kersenbrock's apprentice list would be huge. Some people do not want it to be known who they got training from, so I won't list names. Bob Meucci's apprentice list would be huge also. But I could add a lot to your list if I felt it was kosher to do so. By apprentice I mean people who spent some time getting training from them whether it be a day or two or a year or two. David travelled all over the country training people in their own shops. Another Schrager apprentice that has done the same is Dale Hoke, but almost no one gives him any credit for the training he gave them. So since no one else gives Dale much credit I will say he taught me how to use a pantograph and make patterns and spent a summer with me once. Years before that he also taught me how to install tips by hand back in the 80's. His ability to install flawless burnished tips by hand got him the nick name Cue-Tip Dale. Even though he showed me the tricks to it, I never got as good at installing them by hand as he was, so I moved on to using a lathe a year or so later, and he moved to California and worked with Bert.
I have taught many tricks to other cuemakers and they have taught me many tricks also, so I guess we all kinda apprentice with each other. Sometimes we are the teacher and other times we are the apprentice. We just change hats momentarily.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

So this Tree may never get done.
Bob

billiardshot
05-10-2009, 05:45 AM
An Update CueMaker Tree

95804

12squared
05-10-2009, 07:49 AM
I just emailed Bert & Pat to remind them to take a look and add anything if they can. I didn't forget about you!

Dave

demonrho
05-10-2009, 12:08 PM
You can put down Jimmy Wu (sp?) as an apprentice under Bert Schrager. Also a good player out of LA.


Need Help With Harvey Martin/ Bert Schrager -Apprentice/Cuemaker Tree

Would appreciate any help with information who apprentice under Harvey Martin and Bert Schrager to finish Martin/Schrager Cuemaker Tree see Sample below.

How much your cue can fetch depend not only on workmanship, but also their pedigree.

I gather the list below mentally, so if I am wrong please correct me... I'm awared that some cuemakers/apprentice might apprentice under other cuemakers!

95060

billiardshot
05-10-2009, 03:13 PM
You can put down Jimmy Wu (sp?) as an apprentice under Bert Schrager. Also a good player out of LA.

Thank Demonho. Does anyone know if this the correct spelling Jimmy Wu?

dmgwalsh
05-12-2009, 06:21 AM
An Update CueMaker Tree

95804

As Rich mentioned in an earlier post, Ken "Stew" Mortson has been to the Illinois Billiard Club twice in the last 3 months or so. A new member who is a close friend brought Him. Stew even brought a bunch of his beautiful cues and at least one Harvey Martin for us to look at.

I alerted Stew's friend to this post to see if Stew could shed any light on some of the matters being discussed. Following is his response:

From Stew Mortson – 5/11/09

“In regards to the posting on AZ Billiards, the Harvey Martin apprentice tree. There are a few facts that are incorrect.
First, Harvey Martin never, ever stood shoulder-to-shoulder with anyone to teach them his methods and processes. Tad and Bert are 'loyal disciples' of Harvey, but no one can ever reproduce Harvey's techniques. Harvey Martin never had an apprentice. Tad bought Harvey's shop when he died to include everything. Allen Gilbert never got the information, either.
In 1989, Schrager had an order from the Palmer 1972 catalog (back page.) I inlayed 6 cues ea for a total of 36 cues including ebony with abalone. Bert was worried we couldn't get the order finished -Dale Hoke was running the shop, and Bert was going in for open heart surgery. Kersenbrock was 'freelancing,' and was brought in to help finish the 36 cue order. David wound up "being a loss" because he couldn't work at all and was fired by Pat Schrager approximately 6 weeks after he started.

David Kersenbrock was making cues by his own admission in 1971-72. He adapted to use a style that was similar to Harvey Martin – the 3/8x11 brass machine screw and the double-angle taper. Harvey decided to use that screw type because that type of thread doesn't tear away the wood in the shaft like a 3/8x10 does. It is built to last.
David was no more an apprentice of Bert Schrager than Bert was of Harvey. They crossed paths momentarily. David made cues by himself in his parents back yard (called the “Caliente” period) where he built his own adobe hut to work in, was backed by Don Lee at one point, made cues in Vegas with Jerry and Laurie, and 'freelanced' before he got to Schrager's shop.
Dale Hoke was making cues in various places before he arrived at Schrager's and has a mind for designing inlay patterns for cues that is second to none. His machining skills allowed him to make cues before, during, and after Schrager that have a high level of playability.”

Ken 'Stew' Mortson

poolhustler
05-12-2009, 06:50 AM
Great info!! Keep it coming :)

oncue4u
05-12-2009, 08:56 AM
I have been a close friend to Bert & Pat Schrager since 1975. Sometime back in the early 80's I was introduced to Harry Sims (former US National 3 Cushion Champion) who was working in Bert Schrager's shop making sneaky petes. Shortly after that Harry came to San Jose, CA and was working the counter at the original California Billiards. Harry continued to make basic cues in a small workshop at the back of the poolroom.
I do recall David Kersenbrock at Bert's shop for a short period of time.
According to Bert, Kersenbrock was passing through and had no place to stay. Bert offered him to stay in a trailer that was parked behind the shop and to help him with cuemaking. Bert warned David not to mess with the settings on his equipment. David did not listen and Bert told David to move on. I also recall Jeff Carter helping out making sneaky petes at one time. Tim Padgett learned his cuemaking skills from Bert. Bert wanted to offer him a partnership in the business. Tim decided to start his own shop much to the dismay of Bert.
Bert Schrager should be in the Hall of Fame, as he helped so many aspiring cuemakers along the way. He even offered to teach me, but being a cuemaker was not my passion.

billiardshot
05-12-2009, 11:50 AM
As Rich mentioned in an earlier post, Ken "Stew" Mortson has been to the Illinois Billiard Club twice in the last 3 months or so. A new member who is a close friend brought Him. Stew even brought a bunch of his beautiful cues and at least one Harvey Martin for us to look at.

I alerted Stew's friend to this post to see if Stew could shed any light on some of the matters being discussed. Following is his response:

From Stew Mortson – 5/11/09

“In regards to the posting on AZ Billiards, the Harvey Martin apprentice tree. There are a few facts that are incorrect.
First, Harvey Martin never, ever stood shoulder-to-shoulder with anyone to teach them his methods and processes. Tad and Bert are 'loyal disciples' of Harvey, but no one can ever reproduce Harvey's techniques. Harvey Martin never had an apprentice. Tad bought Harvey's shop when he died to include everything. Allen Gilbert never got the information, either.
In 1989, Schrager had an order from the Palmer 1972 catalog (back page.) I inlayed 6 cues ea for a total of 36 cues including ebony with abalone. Bert was worried we couldn't get the order finished -Dale Hoke was running the shop, and Bert was going in for open heart surgery. Kersenbrock was 'freelancing,' and was brought in to help finish the 36 cue order. David wound up "being a loss" because he couldn't work at all and was fired by Pat Schrager approximately 6 weeks after he started.

David Kersenbrock was making cues by his own admission in 1971-72. He adapted to use a style that was similar to Harvey Martin – the 3/8x11 brass machine screw and the double-angle taper. Harvey decided to use that screw type because that type of thread doesn't tear away the wood in the shaft like a 3/8x10 does. It is built to last.
David was no more an apprentice of Bert Schrager than Bert was of Harvey. They crossed paths momentarily. David made cues by himself in his parents back yard (called the “Caliente” period) where he built his own adobe hut to work in, was backed by Don Lee at one point, made cues in Vegas with Jerry and Laurie, and 'freelanced' before he got to Schrager's shop.
Dale Hoke was making cues in various places before he arrived at Schrager's and has a mind for designing inlay patterns for cues that is second to none. His machining skills allowed him to make cues before, during, and after Schrager that have a high level of playability.”

Ken 'Stew' Mortson

Dennis, Thank for your and Stew input. As I stated in this post earlier, there are incorrect and also this a work in progress. The tree will be broken down to inspiration/ influence by, work with, etc.

billiardshot
05-12-2009, 12:14 PM
I have been a close friend to Bert & Pat Schrager since 1975. Sometime back in the early 80's I was introduced to Harry Sims (former US National 3 Cushion Champion) who was working in Bert Schrager's shop making sneaky petes. Shortly after that Harry came to San Jose, CA and was working the counter at the original California Billiards. Harry continued to make basic cues in a small workshop at the back of the poolroom.
I do recall David Kersenbrock at Bert's shop for a short period of time.
According to Bert, Kersenbrock was passing through and had no place to stay. Bert offered him to stay in a trailer that was parked behind the shop and to help him with cuemaking. Bert warned David not to mess with the settings on his equipment. David did not listen and Bert told David to move on. I also recall Jeff Carter helping out making sneaky petes at one time. Tim Padgett learned his cuemaking skills from Bert. Bert wanted to offer him a partnership in the business. Tim decided to start his own shop much to the dismay of Bert.
Bert Schrager should be in the Hall of Fame, as he helped so many aspiring cuemakers along the way. He even offered to teach me, but being a cuemaker was not my passion.

Eric, Thank for the added information about Harry Sims. I hope we can get more information. Because I believe there still more surprise to be found.

Newness Cuemaker Tree

96025

12squared
05-12-2009, 01:45 PM
I just hung up w/Pat (Bert's wife) and we have a few more names to add, but first...

Hi Eric, it's me, Dave Gross. If you ever want to see a silky smooth stroke, watch Eric play. Nice to see you post in this thread.

What Eric said about Harvey Martin is true, he never "taught" Bert cue building. But he did used to sit in a high stool in Bert's shop watching him works and would make comments like "that cue sounds funny", then Bert would throw it in the trash. They were pretty good friends that shared the love of cues building. Harvey never offered Bert direct information until his wife, Ruby died. According to Pat, after that Harvey & Bert went for a drive and stopped somewhere private and Harvey talked for 6-7 hours about cues, woods, techniques, where he has traveled. Bert wished he had done that 25 years earlier :). I wish I were a fly on the wall.

Pat also confirmed what Eric said about DPK and then giggled.

Oh, and before I forget, it is Mortenson according to Pat.

Ok, here are a few new names:

1) Clint Swalley. Clint worked with Bert in the early years and after learning the pantograph, he was the one that eventually taught Pat.

2) Tom O'Connor. Tom worked with Bert 25-30 years ago for 3-6 months. He is the one that bought all of Bert’s equipment and raw materials in 2005 when Bert was forced to retire due to health reasons.

3) Reimon Sawyaguchi (please forgive the spelling). Reimon is from Japan and lived and apprenticed under Bert for about 6 mos. I understand he owns a room in Japan and continues to make cues...I think.

Bert & Pat say hi to all and is enjoying thinking about all the folks they have met and worked with. Pat came up with a few other names but they were already on the list.

Dave

billiardshot
05-12-2009, 02:08 PM
Thank Dave, will add names later. I wonder if Bert and Pat got a chance to talk with Dieckman when he was in California2008/2009.
How about Mentorship by: Martin???? Instead of apprentice what did Bert learn from Herman Rambow?? Or did he??

Once Again Thank soooooooo much, Dave!!!!

Maybe The word Today would be Mentor or Train By, instead of apprentice?

cranegod1
05-12-2009, 04:58 PM
don't have any insight other than Bender - Dunham. Is/was Dunham an apprentice of Bender?

12squared
05-12-2009, 07:12 PM
... what did Bert learn from Herman Rambow?? Or did he??

I don't know about the Rambow connection, if any. I emailed them to see what they say about it. I do know that Bert is one of the few cuemakers ever to be invited to Gus Szamboti's shop in his home. He has talked of that often and cherishes the memory and the great compliment bestowed upon him by Gus. They remained friends till he died. I wouldn't add that to your list, they were just friends and had mutual respect for each other.
Dave

billiardshot
05-12-2009, 07:54 PM
Dave, as before I will honor that request not to add Gus to Bert list, but I probably will it and when I get to the influenced section.

Newness updated

96091

billiardshot
05-12-2009, 07:56 PM
don't have any insight other than Bender - Dunham. Is/was Dunham an apprentice of Bender?

Cranegod1, Thank! Do you know Dunham first name?

gwjackal
05-12-2009, 08:29 PM
billiardshot - this is great stuff... It would be nice to see just how far back in time you could take this. I am wondering though were would if at all would Ray Schuler fall into play?






<------over my head......

Ken_4fun
05-12-2009, 09:06 PM
This is going to sound corny but this a great thing to do before all the memories get too fuzzy.

Reminds me of friends and family showing old pictures and telling who is who in each one, and I am the a$$ that keeps saying "write it on the back of the picture so it wont get lost."

I am sorry to say too much probably has been lost, but its important to get all you can get as soon as possible. The other thing is the group here adding and correcting, its just great.

Ken

Rich93
05-12-2009, 11:06 PM
billiardshot - this is great stuff... It would be nice to see just how far back in time you could take this. I am wondering though were would if at all would Ray Schuler fall into play?


I don't believe Ray apprenticed with anyone. He started out repairing cues and then graduated to making them. He did have many conversations with Herman Rambow and was influenced by him but never worked in his shop. Ray didn't start doing doing repairs until after Rambow died.

The only connection I can think of is that Stew Mortson, who had previously worked for Schrager, worked in Ray's shop beginning in the early 90's (uncertain about date) and produced some very fancy inlay work on custom Schulers.

Rich93
05-12-2009, 11:13 PM
....
Oh, and before I forget, it is Mortenson according to Pat.
....


Dave

It's Mortson according to Mortson.:)

billiardshot
05-13-2009, 05:14 AM
It's Mortson according to Mortson.:)

This might add to the confusion. Then who submitted this information to Blue Book of Pool Cue. I thought the Cuemaker themselves did? Here a tie to Ray Schuler.

96136

billiardshot
05-13-2009, 05:30 AM
At this point, I again want to Thank everyone for all the input!!!!

With changing time and new terminology, apprentice might be the wrong term today. With all the internet materials, Cuemaking Books, along with DVD/VHS/CD. Maybe we should let ICA , ACA, and the Cuemakers nonmember come up with a new terminology.

Since Cuemaker today are Student and Teacher!

How much surprised information will be found when I/We do Dan Janes/Bill Stroud [Joss Cues].

A simple man adding information, to whose that collect cues

12squared
05-13-2009, 06:34 AM
It's Mortson according to Mortson.:)

This is why I added that, I thought it was funny that Stew Mortson was quoted, but when asked, Pat said Mortenson without hesitation. I did see the earlier post. Personally, I have no idea :eek:.

dmgwalsh
05-13-2009, 01:03 PM
This is why I added that, I thought it was funny that Stew Mortson was quoted, but when asked, Pat said Mortenson without hesitation. I did see the earlier post. Personally, I have no idea :eek:.

OK.

Here's Stew's card from when he worked at Schuler's.

billiardshot
05-13-2009, 04:46 PM
I post this on page #4 of this thread.

From page 542 of The Blue Book of Pool Cue. See picture below.

Will the Real Stew or Stu step forward!!!!!!!!!! Or Tell us why there two different spelling.

96190

Also newness Update

96195

dmgwalsh
05-13-2009, 05:13 PM
I post this on page #4 of this thread.

From page 542 of The Blue Book of Pool Cue. See picture below.

Will the Real Stew or Stu step forward!!!!!!!!!! Or Tell us why there two different spelling.

96190

Also newness Update

96195

maybe blue book is wrong

billiardshot
05-13-2009, 05:35 PM
maybe blue book is wrong

Dennis maybe you can ask Stew For clarification?? Would Like to hear from DPK on this subject also. Maybe it time to start sending out letter to these Cuemakers to see what I get back!!

Here somthing some might not know about Dieckman and his student/apprentice.

Jason Steinberger from Donnybrook, N. Dakota received a grant from The North Dakota Council On The Arts so he could come study at The Cueniversity. And Jason became his apprentice, spending almost five weeks with Dieckman, 9 Aug 2003 thru 16 Sep 2003.

dmgwalsh
05-13-2009, 06:00 PM
Dennis maybe you can ask Stew For clarification??


It has already been clarified. He wrote what he thought and signed his name. You then questioned whether he knew his own name and he provided you with a business card.

This is getting a little silly, I think. Obviously, Blue Book made a mistake. Ask them.

I think you are getting lost on a tangent. Stick to the main focus of your thread. It is cool to bring all these names together.



Would Like to hear from DPK on this subject also.


Do you speak martian? ;)

Seriously, you are not going to hear from David on anything.

jschaefer
05-13-2009, 06:28 PM
I too have known Bert and Pat for a long time. I've enjoyed following this thread and have a few items of info I'd like to add:

Jimmy Wu spells his last name Woo.

Jerry McWorter worked for Bert for a short time, pantograph inlays and minor cue repairs, I believe.

Bert taught several neighbors/friends to assist him in the shop, Ron Genereax, Frank Austin, Jim Sforza, who made cues for a short time as Castle Cues.

Bert influenced Joe Porper who went on to learn from Jerry Franklin, as did
Jerry McWorter.

Bill Smith, from Chicago, a 3C player may have done some time in the shop also.

I do remember Al Romero would come in to have ferrules put on, but he did his own tips.

That's all for now.

billiardshot
05-13-2009, 07:35 PM
I too have known Bert and Pat for a long time. I've enjoyed following this thread and have a few items of info I'd like to add:

Jimmy Wu spells his last name Woo.

Jerry McWorter worked for Bert for a short time, pantograph inlays and minor cue repairs, I believe.

Bert taught several neighbors/friends to assist him in the shop, Ron Genereax, Frank Austin, Jim Sforza, who made cues for a short time as Castle Cues.

Bert influenced Joe Porper who went on to learn from Jerry Franklin, as did
Jerry McWorter.

Bill Smith, from Chicago, a 3C player may have done some time in the shop also.

I do remember Al Romero would come in to have ferrules put on, but he did his own tips.

That's all for now.

jschaefer, Thank for the input. Will add names or made changes tomorrow.

Do you know how much training if any McWorter got from Robinson?

billiardshot
05-13-2009, 08:05 PM
It has already been clarified. He wrote what he thought and signed his name. You then questioned whether he knew his own name and he provided you with a business card.

This is getting a little silly, I think. Obviously, Blue Book made a mistake. Ask them.

I think you are getting lost on a tangent. Stick to the main focus of your thread. It is cool to bring all these names together.

Dennis, I'm not getting lose on a tangent, just trying to get the correction done right.

Business Card Stated [Stew Mortson]
Your first post Stated [ Ken "Stew" Mortson]
Search come up with [Stew Mortson] and [Stu Mortenson]
and etc on what other have posted.

I'm happy to give him as many alias names as he want, and that should be stated. Whether for searching or collecting cue with inlays done by Stew.

Before this is done. We might see what a big spider web we have woven.

And I do appreciate these input from you Dennis.

dmgwalsh
05-14-2009, 04:34 AM
Dennis, I'm not getting lose on a tangent, just trying to get the correction done right.

Business Card Stated [Stew Mortson]
Your first post Stated [ Ken "Stew" Mortson]
Search come up with [Stew Mortson] and [Stu Mortenson]
and etc on what other have posted.


Here's my guess. Given name: Ken Mortson
nickname Stew. Goes by Stew Mortson.

Later

billiardshot
05-14-2009, 06:07 AM
Lil Al Romero name came up again! I wonder if anyone from Hardtime Billiard could ask Al if he received apprentice and to what degree from either Tad or Bert Schrager?

If any AZers' have addition informations or questions. I would very much appreciate receiving them!

Newness Update

96228

jschaefer
05-14-2009, 06:12 PM
A few more tidbits:

Jerrry McWorter played with a Robinson cue for quite some time, don't know if he learned cuemaking from him.

John Robinson's cuemaking philosophy seems very much removed from Harvey Martin, I don't see any connection at all.

Harvey Martin made some laminated shafts, 4 piece, probably in the 1940s or 50s. I had occasion to see one when he brought it to North Hollywood Billiards to show some 3C players.

ajrack
05-14-2009, 07:16 PM
Good info... DPK made my cue in 1976...and I still have it (with 4 shafts). I lived in Vegas and was watching Dave make many cues. I was at his home about 1973 and he was working with a lathe in his living room . He made about 300 cues total when in Vegas! My cue was in the neighborhood of about # 280. I sold a few billiard supplies out of Daves shop and I made quite a few custom leather cases. He quit and left Vegas shortly after. He assisted Bert during the health crisis time. I know Pat and Dave did not get along well so I figured it wouldn't last long. (I have known Bert since 1968/9 ?, when his shop was across from Universal Studios).

billiardshot
05-15-2009, 04:38 AM
A few more tidbits:

Jerrry McWorter played with a Robinson cue for quite some time, don't know if he learned cuemaking from him.

John Robinson's cuemaking philosophy seems very much removed from Harvey Martin, I don't see any connection at all.

Harvey Martin made some laminated shafts, 4 piece, probably in the 1940s or 50s. I had occasion to see one when he brought it to North Hollywood Billiards to show some 3C players.

jschaefer, if you read McWorter and Robinson Bio in The Blue Book of Pool Cue or McWorter's website you might see why I ask that question.

The laminated shaft by Martin have been mention and talk about before. I haven't seen a Martin's Laminated shaft.

billiardshot
05-15-2009, 04:41 AM
Good info... DPK made my cue in 1976...and I still have it (with 4 shafts). I lived in Vegas and was watching Dave make many cues. I was at his home about 1973 and he was working with a lathe in his living room . He made about 300 cues total when in Vegas! My cue was in the neighborhood of about # 280. I sold a few billiard supplies out of Daves shop and I made quite a few custom leather cases. He quit and left Vegas shortly after. He assisted Bert during the health crisis time. I know Pat and Dave did not get along well so I figured it wouldn't last long. (I have known Bert since 1968/9 ?, when his shop was across from Universal Studios).

ajrack, Thank for the addition information.

12squared
05-15-2009, 03:42 PM
...what did Bert learn from Herman Rambow?? Or did he??

Ok, since this is winding down, here is my last post. I received this email from Bert about him remembering Rambow and Willie Hoppe - it is pretty fun and touching so I thought I'd share (Warning: many of you will think Fatboy wrote it, if you know what I mean, but I will fix the big pieces and added some punctuation :D):

"in 1946 i met him (Rambow) and bought 2 cues from him, the man who took me there was also a very close friend of both he and hoppe who i played a game with the next day at my dads american legion meeting. i still remember that night i was "the returningg war hero" and hoppe put his hand on my shoulder and said "son, just enjoy" i was so excited i almost wet my pants! by the yhe way both cues were $26.50 apiece.
Dave, in chicago hoppe would play exabitions with Joe Chamaco i watched every game After the game was overmy dad my mother and i went with Hoppe for coffee Dave, that's anoother storry about a 9 rail bank. Hoppe told me how to make it while we were at the coffee shop that's another story."

I hope you enjoyed the excerpt from the man himself, Bert.

And thanks for doing this, it was a blast to follow and contribute.

Dave

poolhustler
05-15-2009, 04:18 PM
Couple of Schrager Pics........

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/DSC05008.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/DSC05031.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/DSC05036.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/006.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/5-6-07.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/DSC05011.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/DSC05472.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/martinbro/DSC05367.jpg

12squared
05-15-2009, 07:25 PM
Couple of Schrager Pics........



Nice pics, thanks.

HollyWood
05-15-2009, 07:27 PM
I didn't know Bert used Daisy Red Ryders in Africa

billiardshot
05-16-2009, 04:54 AM
Ok, since this is winding down, here is my last post. I received this email from Bert about him remembering Rambow and Willie Hoppe - it is pretty fun and touching so I thought I'd share (Warning: many of you will think Fatboy wrote it, if you know what I mean, but I will fix the big pieces and added some punctuation :D):

"in 1946 i met him (Rambow) and bought 2 cues from him, the man who took me there was also a very close friend of both he and hoppe who i played a game with the next day at my dads american legion meeting. i still remember that night i was "the returningg war hero" and hoppe put his hand on my shoulder and said "son, just enjoy" i was so excited i almost wet my pants! by the yhe way both cues were $26.50 apiece.
Dave, in chicago hoppe would play exabitions with Joe Chamaco i watched every game After the game was overmy dad my mother and i went with Hoppe for coffee Dave, that's anoother storry about a 9 rail bank. Hoppe told me how to make it while we were at the coffee shop that's another story."

I hope you enjoyed the excerpt from the man himself, Bert.

And thanks for doing this, it was a blast to follow and contribute.

Dave

Yes, I believe this winding down! And this all started over "What Cuemakers were in the Smithsonian." I know this list will never be completed, but we have gain a little bit more insight of who were apprentices, workers at Bert shop.

I want to Thankssssss All who post here whether we agree or not!!!!!!! Special THANKZZZZZ to Poolhustler and 12Squared.

All are welcome to use [permission granted] this Cuemaker Tree. Please remember it still work in progress and may be incorrect.

I will be posting any update or major change when I see fit.

More Bert and his apprentices or workers stories would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!

Again Thank All
Bob Watson

Cue Guru
06-09-2009, 07:56 PM
I'm working on a broader one, but not as deep.

Basically it begins in 1900 and ends around 2000- "the best 100 years of cue making" for lack of a better title.

Currently it is in excell, in a top to bottom format. I need to re-do it in a left to right format- that will give the flexibility I need to fill it in properly. Right now it's a bit confusing...

But, your first post looks good. Some aprentices I was not aware of listed there.

dpaulnot
03-27-2010, 07:00 PM
I've been able to find out about 4 cuemakers that either worked with Bert
or were influenced by his work in one way or another, since I bought one a couple of years ago. The one I've heard mentioned but don't see here is McCworter. So I'm curious as the rest of you. Great post!

Here an update Cuemaker Tree. Again if there any mistake or question Please advise.

95294

ELBeau
07-19-2011, 03:19 PM
Bump for those that enjoy the history the cuemaking aspect of it all.
thanks for all the work billiardshot

scdiveteam
07-19-2011, 05:15 PM
I post this on page #4 of this thread.

From page 542 of The Blue Book of Pool Cue. See picture below.

Will the Real Stew or Stu step forward!!!!!!!!!! Or Tell us why there two different spelling.

96190

Also newness Update

96195

Hi,

I saw this post about my friend and I thought I would share a few things:

Ken (Stupendous) Mortson is one hell of a guy.

Stew and I played golf once a week at the Golf Coarse he works as the manager of the Golf Range for years. A few years ago Stu was 82 years young at the time and we made the turn a I was keeping score and he was one under par. After the back nine he had shot a 77 on a very difficult coarse. He is a great golfer to say the least. His shot making is amazing and he drives the ball about 260. If he could drop a few more birdies a round he would be at 3 or 4 handicap for sure.

Stew's panograph work is old school and his artistic design and expression is truly original. He is a master of syemtry, asemetry and paid very close attention to the geometry he created between the the inlays. He worked at North Hollywood Billiards in the day and knows everybody including all of the big stars. Stew met and started out in Berts shop and has made a ton of cues with hundreds of inlays.

He is the real thing. On Michael Jordon's cue he inlayed over six hundred pieces that represented the 2 Three Petes and the 74 and 6 season they had on the sixth championship. Freeken awesome cue with an african style line artwork.

Stew was from Canada and flew over 200 pathfinder night bombing raids in Lancasters over Germany in WW 2 and then did another hitch in Korea where he gained his US Citizenship in the 50s. Stew has been a great teacher to me and although I did not apprentice with him, the informational knowledge I gained from this man will stay with me the rest of my life, He is a walking encyclopedia when it come to cue makers and cue history. He was a good friend of Harvey Martin.

Stew taught me how to play 3 cushion and he knows all of the shots. We where playing in my room and I watched him run a 9 with the last shot being a 5 rail air shot into an umbrella carom. He called the shot.

Stew should be in the Cue Makers HOF. I hope someone who is in charge of that stuff reads this post. If he gets a chance I will pay for his airfare to get him there. He is a rare piece of Americana.

Buy the way, if anyone out there wants one of his creations he still has a dozen or so of his gems. I watched a guy put down $ 17,000 cash for one of his children. if you wish to get a hold of him just PM me.

One of the hardest things to do in sports is to shoot your age in golf, I have seen him do it as a routine occurrence. By the way if Stew were to play Arnold Palmer today, put all the money on Stu.

A very talented man who excelled and enjoyed anything he did in life. He always did it with Panache but without an over inflated ego which is something we could learn from.


Rick Geschrey

Stew holding an 3" x 18" piece of Macarta at the breakfeast table and few years ago.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/TomGesch/moneypics049.jpg

cuemaker03
07-20-2011, 05:18 PM
I post this on page #4 of this thread.

From page 542 of The Blue Book of Pool Cue. See picture below.

Will the Real Stew or Stu step forward!!!!!!!!!! Or Tell us why there two different spelling.

96190

Also newness Update

96195

That is one hell of a list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

scdiveteam
07-21-2011, 11:35 AM
Hi,

I just got off the phone with Stew this morning. The spelling on the Schuller Card is indeed correct and I stand corrected and will amend my other post.

Ken (Stew) Mortson

Rick G

half fast bankr
07-21-2011, 05:34 PM
for laters...

DrOnePocket
11-07-2012, 05:33 PM
great info

socalqman
02-02-2013, 05:26 PM
Brady Andreson apprenticed under Bert Schrager also, I believe.

I alos think that Mike Montalvo worked with Tim Padgett for a while.

No he didn't. Louie Ochoa who now owns Osarah cues did.
Tim Padgett