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dr9ball
05-04-2009, 06:18 PM
I want to wish a hearty Congratulations to one of my SPF students, Rob Reeves. He took 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)

Good Job Rob!!

http://www.poolplayers.com/nsc/2009nsc/stats/white0001.HTM



SPF -> Not just for Sunscreen anymore!

Scott Lee
05-04-2009, 08:33 PM
Congratulations to Rob! :thumbup: It goes to show you what you can accomplish, with some effort and desire. Rob came to pool school last summer, and then took the Xpert Class last November. Obviously his hard work paid off! I've heard from several students in our D.C. area school (among many others around the country), on how their pool games have improved significantly. The next pool school is scheduled for May 22-24, in Harrisburg, PA. We have only two spots left, for this school.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

pooltchr
05-05-2009, 05:14 AM
I love hearing stories like this one. Whenever one of our students attends one of our schools and then works to apply the things they learned to their personal game, the results are obvious. And there is no better feeling for an instructor than to see one of their students succeed.
Steve

lee brett
05-05-2009, 06:04 AM
well done guys keep up the good work, i agree nothing more satisfying for an instructor when 1 of your student wins its what we work for to get the satisfaction of seeing someone we helped win..

akaTrigger
05-05-2009, 06:45 AM
This thread should focus on Rob Reeves. Congrat's on a great finish!

sfleinen
05-05-2009, 07:02 AM
This thread should focus on Rob Reeves. Congrat's on a great finish!

As always, you nailed it on the head, Mel. Hearty congrats to Rob for reaping the rewards from the obvious hard work he put in!

-Sean

DennyS
05-05-2009, 08:14 AM
Here's a couple more we could add, Amy Theriault & Kim Vergottini. Amy finished 2nd and Kim 4th in the BCA Ohio State Women singles. Good luck to them in Vegas!

ArtOfTheCue
05-05-2009, 08:53 AM
Rob is on my APA 9 ball team and plays in other leagues I'm involved in. He's an excellent player, but more importantly, Rob is a really great person and totally stand up guy. He's the first one to call a foul on himself, even if nobody else saw it, and always ready to help his friends in any way he can.

Seriously, it couldn't have happened to a better guy.

On a semi-related note, I'm one of the other Northern Virginia students that Scott mentioned, and his and Randy's pool school was hands down the best pool investment I've ever made. If these guys are coming anywhere near you, take the school. Rob's gone from an APA 3 to an APA 5 in under a year since then, and I've gone from 1 break and run in my life to 3 of them this week in the same time period. Nobody I took the class with has any regrets, and most of us can't believe how inexpensive it was for the results we've gotten out of it.

Scott Lee
05-05-2009, 08:55 AM
Denny...Absolutely agree. We could probably name dozens of students who have taken their new processes, and improved so much, that they've made marks in regional and national tournaments! Way to go Rob Reeves, Amy Theriault, and Kim Vergottini!

I'm looking forward to having you teach at the upcoming Harrisburg pool school! The students are in for a treat! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


Here's a couple more we could add, Amy Theriault & Kim Vergottini. Amy finished 2nd and Kim 4th in the BCA Ohio State Women singles. Good luck to them in Vegas!

Scott Lee
05-05-2009, 09:11 AM
Matt is another example of a student who has really APPLIED himself, to take his game to a new level. On top of that, he's also wanting to teach others, and has shared what he learned with many others. Like I've said many times...it's NOT rocket science, and it's not secret information!

Thanks Matt! Keep up the good work! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Rob is on my APA 9 ball team and plays in other leagues I'm involved in. He's an excellent player, but more importantly, Rob is a really great person and totally stand up guy. He's the first one to call a foul on himself, even if nobody else saw it, and always ready to help his friends in any way he can.

Seriously, it couldn't have happened to a better guy.

On a semi-related note, I'm one of the other Northern Virginia students that Scott mentioned, and his and Randy's pool school was hands down the best pool investment I've ever made. If these guys are coming anywhere near you, take the school. Rob's gone from an APA 3 to an APA 5 in under a year since then, and I've gone from 1 break and run in my life to 3 of them this week in the same time period. Nobody I took the class with has any regrets, and most of us can't believe how inexpensive it was for the results we've gotten out of it.

randyg
05-05-2009, 10:23 AM
I sure like this thread.

SPF=randyg...:-)

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 11:31 AM
I sure like this thread.

SPF=randyg...:-)

I think it should be called "ADVERTISEMENT - Congratulations to another SPF Student". You know, like how we keep things honest in the papers.

pj
chgo

sfleinen
05-05-2009, 12:12 PM
I think it should be called "ADVERTISEMENT - Congratulations to another SPF Student". You know, like how we keep things honest in the papers.

pj
chgo

Patrick:

I agree wholeheartedly. This thread was supposed to be about the STUDENT and his/her successes, *NOT* the teacher. IMHO, if not very bad form, it is at the very least salacious and opportunistic for a teacher to gloat in public over a student's success.

Funny though, some of the responses to this thread kinda remind of the "band camp" scenes (http://youtube.com/watch?v=gFgY7dTpVxs) in the movie, "American Pie". "I remember this one time in pool school..." "Back in pool school, we used to..." :D

-Sean

Gatz
05-05-2009, 12:16 PM
This is the shittiest advertisement I have ever seen :rotflmao:

DennyS
05-05-2009, 01:34 PM
Please I didn't do this for advertisement! I only wanted to share the success 2 of my students had. I really don't need to advertise for anything. I have many students every week!

dr9ball
05-05-2009, 02:53 PM
I think it should be called "ADVERTISEMENT - Congratulations to another SPF Student". You know, like how we keep things honest in the papers.

pj
chgo

Pat, would you have us not acknowledge the successes of our students?
Clearly all the credit goes to what Rob has done after his lessons. The hard work and dedicated practice are the keys to his success. I am very proud of Rob and he happens to be an SPF student. With all the bashing that some members of this forum have been doing towards the SPF Instructors I though it was good to note one particular student's achievement. I learned long ago that I couldn't please everyone. Isn't it nice that both you and I have the freedom to post here even though some wish to censor my posting.

Scott Lee
05-05-2009, 04:03 PM
Sean...I thought it WAS about the success of the students. What you call "gloating", I call praising a friend and student, on their application of knowledge. The fact that Rufus was the 'teacher' and Rob was the student is irrelevant. They are friends, plain and simple. It's no different than anyone else posting about how well a friend did in a tournament (or in a gambling match, for that matter). That you and PJ don't like it that one teaching style helped someone teach themselves to play better, and then went out and applied it well, really isn't the issue. Nobody ever said SPF was a "holy grail", or the "only method that works". What works for some, won't work for others. Last I checked, it's a free country, with everyone's right to choose.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Patrick:

I agree wholeheartedly. This thread was supposed to be about the STUDENT and his/her successes, *NOT* the teacher. IMHO, if not very bad form, it is at the very least salacious and opportunistic for a teacher to gloat in public over a student's success.

Funny though, some of the responses to this thread kinda remind of the "band camp" scenes (http://youtube.com/watch?v=gFgY7dTpVxs) in the movie, "American Pie". "I remember this one time in pool school..." "Back in pool school, we used to..." :D

-Sean

JoeyA
05-05-2009, 04:06 PM
Pat, would you have us not acknowledge the successes of our students?
Clearly all the credit goes to what Rob has done after his lessons. The hard work and dedicated practice are the keys to his success. I am very proud of Rob and he happens to be an SPF student. With all the bashing that some members of this forum have been doing towards the SPF Instructors I though it was good to note one particular student's achievement. I learned long ago that I couldn't please everyone. Isn't it nice that both you and I have the freedom to post here even though some wish to censor my posting.

What SPF instructors should do is take out a nice large ad with Mike Howerton on the front page of AZ Billiards.

The regular prospect "MINING" for students in this forum by SPF instructors is quite apparent to most of us.

The SPF "bashing" as you call it is being earned by virtually every SPF staff member.

It's just a shame that the SPF staff won't even admit to mining the Main Forum for customers.

I remember other people getting hazed for blatant advertising in the Main Forum and think that SPF may have their own reckoning in the near future.

JoeyA

akaTrigger
05-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Pat, would you have us not acknowledge the successes of our students?
Clearly all the credit goes to what Rob has done after his lessons. The hard work and dedicated practice are the keys to his success. I am very proud of Rob and he happens to be an SPF student. With all the bashing that some members of this forum have been doing towards the SPF Instructors I though it was good to note one particular student's achievement. I learned long ago that I couldn't please everyone. Isn't it nice that both you and I have the freedom to post here even though some wish to censor my posting.

I don't mind acknowledgment of your students' success and I don't think your posts should be censored, but I think this thread was more about SPF than Rob.

For instance, you wrote:

Title: Congratulations to another SPF Student

"I want to wish a hearty Congratulations to one of my SPF students, Rob Reeves. He took 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)

Good Job Rob!!"

Others might have wrote:

Title: Congratulations to Rob Reeves

"I want to send a big shout out to Rob Reeves who just placed 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)! I am very proud of him (and he happens to be one of my students). :thumbup:"

OR.... how about:

Title: Congratulations to Rob Reeves

"I want to wish a hearty Congratulations to one of my SPF students, Rob Reeves. He took 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)

Good Job Rob!!"

I don't think I'm the only one that see's the difference.

And yes, free speech and opinion sharing is what makes the world a great place, so I'm sure I'll get slammed.... and yet, I have no issues with SPF!

Okay, let the words fly at me. I'm ready.

Before I sign off, Congrat's again to Ron! I don't know him but a lot of people obviously think he's a great guy and that goes along way.

JoeyA
05-05-2009, 05:02 PM
I don't mind acknowledgment of your students' success and I don't think your posts should be censored, but I think this thread was more about SPF than Rob.

For instance, you wrote:

Title: Congratulations to another SPF Student

"I want to wish a hearty Congratulations to one of my SPF students, Rob Reeves. He took 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)

Good Job Rob!!"

Others might have wrote:

Title: Congratulations to Rob Reeves

"I want to send a big shout out to Rob Reeves who just placed 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)! I am very proud of him (and he happens to be one of my students). :thumbup:"

OR.... how about:

Title: Congratulations to Rob Reeves

"I want to wish a hearty Congratulations to one of my SPF students, Rob Reeves. He took 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)

Good Job Rob!!"

I don't think I'm the only one that see's the difference.

And yes, free speech and opinion sharing is what makes the world a great place, so I'm sure I'll get slammed.... and yet, I have no issues with SPF!

Okay, let the words fly at me. I'm ready.

Before I sign off, Congrat's again to Ron! I don't know him but a lot of people obviously think he's a great guy and that goes along way.


Trigger,
You are quite right with your suggestions. I doubt anyone could find fault in what you said.

And while we're at it, let's wish congratulations to Dr9Ball, the teacher for doing a good job. Oh yeah, way to go Ron. :D Just kidding. Fifth place amongst all those players is a great accomplishment.

JoeyA

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 05:07 PM
Scott Lee:
That you and PJ don't like it that one teaching style helped someone teach themselves to play better, and then went out and applied it well, really isn't the issue.

And it really isn't the case, as you well know. You're not doing your or Cue-Tech's reputation here any good by so obviously trying to twist our meaning, Scott.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 05:13 PM
Pat, would you have us not acknowledge the successes of our students?

You know it's not about that, and so does everybody else.

This could be a little thing, of no consequence. But instead every time this comes up (and it keeps coming up) you guys get a little more tarnished - not so much because you did it again, but because you insist on trying all these transparent dodges and denials.

It not only makes you look less than truthful; it makes it appear that you think we're all stupid.

pj
chgo

SmoothStroke
05-05-2009, 05:21 PM
#1 06-08-2008, 03:42 PM
SmoothStroke
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005
vCash: 500
iTrader: (0)
Posts: 114


Congratulations Angelo Quadara

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a fine showing at Valley Forge.
I know Mom, Dad and Joseph are proud of you.
You know I am. Someone once said hard work pays off.
You're a fine young man, intelligent and respectuful as a young man can be.
Don't forget to thank your parents.

P.S. That's a great stroke you have there young man I think I am going to need some weight.

Signed: Now you know my screename

Today May 5 2009 -The above post was praise to one of my students back in June of 2008.
He finished second in the junior 16 yr olds, If I want to hijack your thread I would add a Number One Female player in the world was also one of my students for 5 - 6 hours a day for months,,,not one 3 hour lesson 3 years ago.

But as you can see from my post the praise went to my student.
The new post is so maybe you can see what praise is all about, compare the two.
I may start my own school, maybe call it SSS Academy

ArtOfTheCue
05-05-2009, 05:33 PM
In all fairness to the SPF instructors, I am the one who posted a blatant advertisement, not any of them. While they certainly didn't hesitate to illustrate a connection between my friend's performance and the instruction he recieved, I don't think anyone else came right out and said "take this program.". I did that.

Just to be clear, I'm not an SPF teacher and my only connection to them is that I took their clinic and have contacted Scott since then whenever I need advice from an instructor. I have no personal incentive whatsoever to push their services. I took the course about a year ago, so I'm well beyond the "afterglow effect" that can distort a person's unbiased opinion of such events.

I also know how to objectively evaluate a teacher and his curriculum -- in my (non pool related) professional career, I've studied in great depth the psychology of learning and most effective teaching methods. Additionally, I've been playing for 11 years, and have known and/or worked with about that many billiards coaches. The bottom line here is that these guys teach a great program, and the majority of them teach it quite well. As I mentioned earlier, I've seen drastic results in my game and in the games of every other person I know who took the course with me (6 of them). I've known instructors who've helped me a little and others who've actually damaged my game, but this program is the only one I've personally experienced that has truly made me a much better player.

I know there are differing opinions on the SPF guys here, and I'm certainly not trying to claim they're perfect. There are definitely things I really don't like about their organization, and I think the quality of instruction can vary a little too much from instructor to instructor. That said, I tell anybody who asks me to go see Scott and Randy, and none of them have come back disappointed or even mostly satisfied. They're always amazed. Scott and Randy's course consistently gets drastic results, and that's why I wanted to plug them. I know Rob very well, and I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he were on this board, he would have done the same thing.

If you don't like the way they handle themselves here, that's fine -- I tend to agree with you sometimes. But don't let that cloud the fact that they consistently get rapid, drastic results out of students at virtually all levels in the game, because that's really what instructors should be evaluated on, right?

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 05:49 PM
I tell anybody who asks me to go see Scott and Randy, and none of them have come back disappointed or even mostly satisfied.

I've learned from Scott and praised him highly for his expertise and enthusiasm more than once here. His and Randy's and Cue-Tech's expertise and value as instructors is not in question. People simply object to their constant half-disguised self-promotion here. It's got to the point that I look for (and sadly usually find) the ulterior motive in all their posts.

...don't let that cloud the fact that they consistently get rapid, drastic results out of students at virtually all levels in the game, because that's really what instructors should be evaluated on, right?

As I said, this isn't about evaluating them as instructors (except that they're inadvertently making it harder to do that when they post this way).

pj
chgo

lfigueroa
05-05-2009, 06:12 PM
Congratulations to Rob! :thumbup: It goes to show you what you can accomplish, with some effort and desire. Rob came to pool school last summer, and then took the Xpert Class last November. Obviously his hard work paid off! I've heard from several students in our D.C. area school (among many others around the country), on how their pool games have improved significantly. The next pool school is scheduled for May 22-24, in Harrisburg, PA. We have only two spots left, for this school.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


Pathetic.

Lou Figueroa
buy an ad

pooltchr
05-05-2009, 06:57 PM
The regular prospect "MINING" for students in this forum by SPF instructors is quite apparent to most of us.

The SPF "bashing" as you call it is being earned by virtually every SPF staff member.



JoeyA

I can only speak for myself, but of the hundreds of students I have worked with, I could count on one hand the number who listed this forum as the way they heard about me.
I don't post here to find students. I post here because I love pool, I can learn a lot, and sometimes even share some knowledge.

Do you think this would be a better pool forum without all the instructors participating?

Steve

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 07:35 PM
...of the hundreds of students I have worked with, I could count on one hand the number who listed this forum as the way they heard about me.

So it shouldn't hurt any of you to stop with all the ads.

Do you think this would be a better pool forum without all the instructors participating?

Are you saying you won't "participate" without the self-promoting?

pj
chgo

JoeyA
05-05-2009, 09:27 PM
So it shouldn't hurt any of you to stop with all the ads.



Are you saying you won't "participate" without the self-promoting?

pj
chgo

I think Patrick said it far better than I ever could have.

JoeyA

randyg
05-06-2009, 02:35 AM
So it shouldn't hurt any of you to stop with all the ads.



Are you saying you won't "participate" without the self-promoting?

pj
chgo



Good idea Patrick. I will ask all the *&$ Instructors to tone it down.....*&$-randyg

cookie man
05-06-2009, 03:25 AM
I've learned from Scott and praised him highly for his expertise and enthusiasm more than once here. His and Randy's and Cue-Tech's expertise and value as instructors is not in question. People simply object to their constant half-disguised self-promotion here. It's got to the point that I look for (and sadly usually find) the ulterior motive in all their posts.



As I said, this isn't about evaluating them as instructors (except that they're inadvertently making it harder to do that when they post this way).

pj
chgo
PJ, i'm just surprised you havn't mentioned DR. Dave

pooltchr
05-06-2009, 05:04 AM
So it shouldn't hurt any of you to stop with all the ads.

I don't post ads. I post comments. As I pointed out, internet forums are not the best source for students. My business comes from referrals from other satisfied students. (OOPS, sorry! That sounds like a commercial, doesn't it! :wink:



Are you saying you won't "participate" without the self-promoting?
I already do. I asked you if you thought the forum would be a better place without any instructors participating...and you didn't answer.

pj
chgo

Look around. There are a lot of bigger issues to worry about than whether or not an instructor praises the success of one of his students. Let's start a poll to find out if SVB puts his pants on right leg first, or left leg first. In the scheme of things, what is really important?
Steve

sfleinen
05-06-2009, 05:05 AM
PJ, i'm just surprised you havn't mentioned DR. Dave

cookie man:

Bad comparison. Dr. Dave doesn't continually hawk "wares" like the SPF instructors do. His posts are not laced with blatant sales pitches like, oh, this:

[...]
The next pool school is scheduled for May 22-24, in Harrisburg, PA. We have only two spots left, for this school.

Instead, Dr. Dave continually offers up his knowledge, expertise, research (e.g. videos, documentation) and helpful attitude to the pool community, without hawking wares (e.g. "slots" in some school).

That is the point of the heat against the SPF instructors. When called to the carpet about these practices, one is met with evasive defenses from the SPF instructors, such as calling into question *any* instructor's ability to post on these forums, as if to imply "ability to post = right to stick an ad in your face." Or the "who, me? I was only 'congratulating' a fellow student/practitioner" back-pedaling. As a countering example, you don't see the BCA instructors being called to the carpet about these practices -- only the SPF instructors. (And there are plenty more BCA instructors out there than the SPF instructors!) This is not a "religious war" against the SPF; it has nothing to do with SPF itself -- only how it's continually marketed. If Dr. Dave had thinly-veiled sales pitches for, oh, say, high-speed camera widgets in his posts, you can *BET* (and we pool players are a gambling bunch, aren't we?) that he would be met with the same call to the carpet.

This is not a debate about "freedom of speech" (e.g. the evasive defenses about this "being a free country"). As with anything, there's a time and a place for stuff like this. On AZBilliards, if not paying Mike H. for an ad/banner at the top of the screen, this "place" is the Wanted/For Sale forum, and to a lesser extent, the Ask The Instructor forum.

Respectfully,
-Sean

Patrick Johnson
05-06-2009, 06:33 AM
Dr. Dave doesn't continually hawk "wares" like the SPF instructors do. His posts are not laced with blatant sales pitches like, oh, this:

[...]
The next pool school is scheduled for May 22-24, in Harrisburg, PA. We have only two spots left, for this school.

Personally, I don't mind when these pool schools are announced here - that's advertising, but it's for a specific event so it's relatively infrequent, and it's above board. It's when every other post (and that's generous for some of these guys) is laced with self-referential "stealth" promotion that I get tired of it.

It's not the end of the world, but you'd think they'd want to hear about it if they're having the wrong effect.

And, of course, Dr. Dave is the best example we have of the opposite kind of posting: his information, articles and videos are all offered freely in the spirit of openly sharing knowledge with his fellow discussion forum participants. If you're talkin' down the Doctor, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
05-06-2009, 06:41 AM
pooltchr:
I don't post ads. I post comments. As I pointed out, internet forums are not the best source for students. My business comes from referrals from other satisfied students. (OOPS, sorry! That sounds like a commercial, doesn't it!

I didn't really have you in mind, Teach' - just making general comments for those who know who they are.

I asked you if you thought the forum would be a better place without any instructors participating...and you didn't answer.

I don't think that question is relevant to this issue, and I'm a little surprised that you'd ask it again. It sounds like you're threatening not to participate if you can't advertise.

There are a lot of bigger issues to worry about than whether or not an instructor praises the success of one of his students.

Again, you know that's not what this is about.

pj
chgo

mikepage
05-06-2009, 07:09 AM
Personally, I don't mind when these pool schools are announced here - that's advertising, but it's for a specific event so it's relatively infrequent, and it's above board.

I agree. When it's a traveling one-time school, it's good information to get out there.

There was a now-defunct Minnesota forum that allowed basically no talk about tournaments. A room couldn't say they had a $400 added 14.1 tournament this weekend, for instance. Sure, it's advertising--I guess--but it's also information forum readers want to know. It really too away from the forum.

I don't mind seeing an occasional reminder about Scott's travel schedule, or that there's a such and such pool school coming to Oskosh. So long as the information aspect outweighs the promotion aspect, I'm good with it.


And, of course, Dr. Dave is the best example we have of the opposite kind of posting: his information, articles and videos are all offered freely in the spirit of openly sharing knowledge with his fellow discussion forum participants. If you're talkin' down the Doctor, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.


Dave has so much in the bank on the information side of the equation that he could promote promote promote for 1000 posts, and I wouldn't complain.

Do you suppose a Johnson/Page fightin tag team would scare 'em?

Patrick Johnson
05-06-2009, 07:21 AM
Do you suppose a Johnson/Page fightin tag team would scare 'em?

I can hear their knees knockin' at the very idea. LOL.

pj
chgo

P.S. Are you going to give us plenty of advance notice for your grand opening? I'd like to take a road trip (maybe you can introduce me to your Police Chief, Frances McDormand).

mikepage
05-06-2009, 07:32 AM
You betcha!

I can hear their knees knockin' at the very idea. LOL.

pj
chgo

P.S. Are you going to give us plenty of advance notice for your grand opening? I'd like to take a road trip (maybe you can introduce me to your Police Chief, Frances McDormand).

JoeyA
05-06-2009, 07:48 AM
PJ, i'm just surprised you havn't mentioned DR. Dave

You're comparing Dr. Dave with SPF family?

Dr. Dave REGULARLY jumps into MANY THREADS and posts and offers his advice free of charge to the forum. Most of his posts are subtantially different from the SPF advertisements.

If you don't see the difference, then I guess we just aren't reading the same posts.

I really don't mind reading a little free advertisement in the forum informing us of new products and services or even a reminder every once in a blue moon about so and so, but I think by now, we all know who the SPF family is and what a valuable service they provide IN THEIR SCHOOLS AND CLINICS and there is less need to be prodded by constant advertising for the same product in the Main Forum.


JoeyA

sfleinen
05-06-2009, 08:21 AM
Personally, I don't mind when these pool schools are announced here - that's advertising, but it's for a specific event so it's relatively infrequent, and it's above board. It's when every other post (and that's generous for some of these guys) is laced with self-referential "stealth" promotion that I get tired of it.

That was my point as well, Patrick. I covered that in another post (e.g. the American Pie-esque "band camp" references in those "every other posts"), but because the waters seemed to have been muddied with the "should 'all' instructors just not post then" counter reply, I tried to shine a flashlight on an example of the "shoehorn marketing" that was going on. Of course, not all instructors are guilty of this; just select few (they know who they are).

Certainly, occasional posts about upcoming schools / road-shows / schedules are warranted and welcomed, but these are their own threads. Like you, I quickly got tired of the "band camp" marketing shoehorned into every other post, whether the original thread had to do with a pool school or not.

And to be fair, perhaps folks like you and me have become very sensitive to it because it'd been in our face for so long. We now look for (and unfortunately find) it in just about every other post, and sometimes we don't even have to look for it -- it's just "right there" out in the open.

It's not the end of the world, but you'd think they'd want to hear about it if they're having the wrong effect.

Absolutely. I know if I were in business, I'd want to know if my very marketing practices were negatively affecting my message or my reputation.

And, of course, Dr. Dave is the best example we have of the opposite kind of posting: his information, articles and videos are all offered freely in the spirit of openly sharing knowledge with his fellow discussion forum participants. If you're talkin' down the Doctor, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

pj
chgo

With this I fully concur. "Them are fightin' words" to me as well. You might've noticed I opened that reply to cookie man with the opening sentence, "Bad comparison," and then followed that up with an explanation why. Bringing Dr. Dave into this certainly came out of left field, and I know there's a lot of us that wanted to squash that in a heartbeat -- you, Mike Page, JoeyA, and myself being good examples.

-Sean

Neil
05-06-2009, 08:46 AM
...............

Cornerman
05-06-2009, 09:03 AM
I want to wish a hearty Congratulations to one of my SPF students, Rob Reeves. He took 5th place in the APA National Singles Championships (9 ball White Tier)

Good Job Rob!!

http://www.poolplayers.com/nsc/2009nsc/stats/white0001.HTM



SPF -> Not just for Sunscreen anymore!

Okay, okay, let's get this thread back on track and back on the players. I'd also like to give a hearty congratulations to Brandon Ryan who also placed 5th.. in the Black Tier!!!

http://www.poolplayers.com/nsc/2009nsc/stats/black0002.HTM

Brandon is my teammate on my BCA team. (And on my team, don't tell him I said this... he's the #4 shooter!!). I'd love to sit here and say I taught him everything he knows, but alas, he already had a game when he hopped on our team.

Fred <~~~ has some good teammates

Cornerman
05-06-2009, 09:19 AM
And, of course, Dr. Dave is the best example we have of the opposite kind of posting: his information, articles and videos are all offered freely in the spirit of openly sharing knowledge with his fellow discussion forum participants. If you're talkin' down the Doctor, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Pat (and Mike and Joey), what you view as friendly, free, open, etc., others (including me) have viewed (in the past) Dr. Dave as overly aggressive, self-serving, self-promoting. He's certainly toned it down, but let's not make it sound like he hasn't been guilty himself. And, let's not make it sound like he didn't have a book to sell.

Similar to the tone of many of the SPF instructor posts, there's chafe. The information from Dr. Dave and the SPF instructors is mostly excellent. I think both the SPF instructors and the Dr. Dave (and a lot of other self-promoting, but well-intentioned posters) would do well to listen to the posters "complaints." And, I think they have listened. Certainly Dr. Dave has.

Fred

Neil
05-06-2009, 09:37 AM
..............

Patrick Johnson
05-06-2009, 10:02 AM
Me:
And, of course, Dr. Dave is the best example we have of the opposite kind of posting: his information, articles and videos are all offered freely in the spirit of openly sharing knowledge with his fellow discussion forum participants. If you're talkin' down the Doctor, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Fred:
Pat (and Mike and Joey), what you view as friendly, free, open, etc., others (including me) have viewed (in the past) Dr. Dave as overly aggressive, self-serving, self-promoting. He's certainly toned it down, but let's not make it sound like he hasn't been guilty himself. And, let's not make it sound like he didn't have a book to sell. Similar to the tone of many of the SPF instructor posts, there's chafe.

I don't remember hearing about his book. I'm not questioning what you say, but the fact I don't know about it must say something about the level and frequency of Dave's self-promotion vs. others'.

The information from Dr. Dave and the SPF instructors is mostly excellent.

I agree, but there's a real difference in their "signal to noise" ratios.

pj
chgo

JoeyA
05-06-2009, 11:03 AM
I don't remember hearing about his book. I'm not questioning what you say, but the fact I don't know about it must say something about the level and frequency of Dave's self-promotion vs. others'.



I agree, but there's a real difference in their "signal to noise" ratios.

pj
chgo

While Dr. Dave and I aren't best buds (We've never met nor share a drink or a meal), I can say that I remember more about what he offers in free instruction on the Main Forum than I do about any book OR DVD that he might offer.

It's common knowledge that you can view almost everything on his website FREE OF CHARGE.

Add in the fact that he posts all of those videos of unique shots and situations that he and Bob Jewett film and contribute to the Main Forum FREE OF CHARGE as well as him answering every question with good effort and you have a person who MINIMIZES any mention of his product or services and MAXIMIZES the instructional information available FREE OF CHARGE.

Is his website for ordering DVD's or books:
http://dr-dave-billiards.com/ ?

or the incredible volumes of free INSTRUCTIONAL INFORMATION: http://billiards.colostate.edu/

lol

If I'm not mistaken he seldom tells you where you can go to buy his stuff and normally refers Main Forum members to his website where you can view his high quality instructional information for free.

JoeyA (didn't mean for this to turn into an advertisement for Dr. Dave) really.........but at least it's not HIM hawking his wares non-stop in the Main Forum.

sfleinen
05-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Folks:

Great idea on Fred's (CornerMan's) part -- congratulating students who put into practice what they learned and reaped the rewards/benefits.

I'd like to congratulate Easton, CT's own Douglas Moe, a skill level "4" in the APA, who has taken 5th place in the Yellow Tier of the APA Nationals:

http://poolplayers.com/nsc/2009nsc/stats/yellow0001.HTM

Doug is not an SPF student, but rather took lessons from the famous Bob Begey, a.k.a. "Bristol Bob" (http://azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2005.php?playernum=872). (Those that recall the name "Bristol Bob" know him as Kid Delicious' road partner (http://nycgrind.com/?p=127), as told in the fanciful book, "Running the Table: The Legend of Kid Delicious, the Last Great American Pool Hustler.") Doug's application of the information he learned has gained him the ability to consistently win APA Regionals (singles boards) and thus a ticket to Vegas to compete in the APA Nationals. This year, he placed 5th in the APA Nationals -- getting stronger each year!

Congratulations Doug!
-Sean

Cornerman
05-06-2009, 11:36 AM
I don't remember hearing about his book. I'm not questioning what you say, but the fact I don't know about it must say something about the level and frequency of Dave's self-promotion vs. others'.



First, let me again apologize for using Dr. Dave as the example because at this point it's unfair since he's a bit of an innocent bystander in all this.

That being said, when someone said in an earlier post that they are surprised you didn't mention Dr. Dave, well... now you know why. I think you would have said the same thing as you are suggesting now... that the self promoting tone can often be a turn off to the good content. I had several online discussions with Dr. Dave on this very subject, and people ragged on me and the other "detractors" for taking him to task. Today, I think his posts are what they are partially due to those early "negative" posts.

So, you get to reap the rewards of Dr. Dave's more .... streamlined posts.

But, to everyone else, we are all mostly adult here. Everyone can say whatever they want, however they want. But similarly, anyone has the right to take those posts to task. And moderators have the power to moderate.

Fred

Cornerman
05-06-2009, 11:38 AM
Is his website for ordering DVD's or books:
http://dr-dave-billiards.com/ ?

or the incredible volumes of free INSTRUCTIONAL INFORMATION: http://billiards.colostate.edu/

They're both his. And I encourage everyone to take a look at all of the information he offers.

Fred

JoeyA
05-06-2009, 02:15 PM
First, let me again apologize for using Dr. Dave as the example because at this point it's unfair since he's a bit of an innocent bystander in all this.
Fred

Well all righty then, I'll let you buy me a beer. :D
JoeyA

mikepage
05-06-2009, 05:42 PM
First, let me again apologize for using Dr. Dave as the example because at this point it's unfair since he's a bit of an innocent bystander in all this. [...]

Well certainly everybody here should buy

"The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards" (Sterling, 2004)

by David G. Alciatore

But that's not really the point here...

...

Come to think of it

I don't remember what IS the point.

Cornerman
05-06-2009, 05:54 PM
Well certainly everybody here should buy

"The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards" (Sterling, 2004)

by David G. Alciatore

But that's not really the point here...

...

Come to think of it

I don't remember what IS the point.
The point was whether the water ever reached your house and how it affected you. And then, the point was that we're waiting for the grand opening.

Fred <~~~ and everyone should think about SPF lessons and buying Dave's book

JMuck
05-06-2009, 11:12 PM
I've enjoyed Dr. daves videos immensely.Some are truly enlightening.The costs of compiling that information can only come from someone who is passionate about learning and sharing that learning.We get to watch those videos for free. Thank you Dr. Dave

JoeyA
05-07-2009, 07:41 AM
I've enjoyed Dr. daves videos immensely.Some are truly enlightening.The costs of compiling that information can only come from someone who is passionate about learning and sharing that learning.We get to watch those videos for free. Thank you Dr. Dave

Stay out of this thread Dave! You've been warned. ;)

JoeyA

Roger Long
05-07-2009, 09:52 AM
I've enjoyed Dr. daves videos immensely.Some are truly enlightening.The costs of compiling that information can only come from someone who is passionate about learning and sharing that learning.We get to watch those videos for free. Thank you Dr. Dave

I dunno. Dr. Dave's info always Sounds Pretty Funky to me.
:D

p.s. My unpaid ad is right below the signature line.

Roger

JMuck
05-07-2009, 10:22 AM
High speed video speaks for itself.

JoeyA
05-07-2009, 10:30 AM
I dunno. Dr. Dave's info always Sounds Pretty Funky to me.
:D

p.s. My unpaid ad is right below the signature line.

Roger

Roger,
I have never seen your signature line or website http://www.maestrosproshop.com/

I see that you offer many different and valuable pool tips on a variety of subjects, FREE on your website.

I'll look around a bit more at the cues and other areas of your website when I have more time.

thanks,
JoeyA

Roger Long
05-07-2009, 10:32 AM
High speed video speaks for itself.

So does high speed reading.

Roger Long
05-07-2009, 10:56 AM
Roger,
I have never seen your signature line or website http://www.maestrosproshop.com/

I see that you offer many different and valuable pool tips on a variety of subjects, FREE on your website.

I'll look around a bit more at the cues and other areas of your website when I have more time.

thanks,
JoeyA

Hey, guys, don't take me serious. I'm just having a little fun on a slow Thursday morning. I'm not trying to cut down Dr. Dave or anyone else, I just saw an opportunity to play on some words with the "Sounds Pretty Funky" thing.

As for the signature line, yes, that is free advertising, graciously permitted by the forum administrators here. I humbly thank them for that, and promise them that I will try to keep all comments that could be regarded as solicitations for business out of my regular posts.

Roger

tweakling
05-07-2009, 01:02 PM
Greetings everyone!

I'm Rob Reeves, and I'd like to start by saying MUCHAS GRACIAS!!! (I'm pretty sure that's Spanish for "you're very good-looking") for all the kudos over my strong performance in Vegas last week. For the record, I also managed to do ok on the blackjack tables (not losing everything is winning there, right?).

I would especially like to acknowledge and thank Randy, Scott and Rufus for their instruction and support. I've always enjoyed playing pool, but I love it all the more now that someone finally showed me how to hit the damn ball straight. Seriously, my stroke was a mess, and they showed me how to fix it, as well as how to self-diagnose whenever it gets out of line again. Yes, that's right, I'm promoting SPF. So there.

That said, please let this thread die. Everyone has made their points. All that's left is bickering and getting all snarky with each other (I never miss an opportunity to use the word "snarky"). Posting on forums is much like driving on the highway. People find it so easy to honk their horns and yell out the window when they're not face-to-face with a driver who offended them in some way. If they were to meet in person, it's more likely they would exchange excuse-me's in a civil manner, and perhaps even buy each other a drink.

Cheers!
-Rob

pooltchr
05-07-2009, 01:44 PM
Rob. Thanks for joining in with a voice of reason.
And congratulations on your accomplishments.
There's more to follow, I'm sure.

Steve