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View Full Version : The Draw Stroke Test...How Do You Rate?


mosconiac
05-05-2009, 09:52 AM
We've all probably seen this simple draw stroke test...please take the poll so we can see where we all rate. :thumbup:

With a 314, I typically return to where the CB started, which is about 12-13 diamonds. I've had an occasional flyer that made it to the end rail (15 diamonds), but that is very unusual. I haven't tried out my OB-2 yet. Also, I usually use a red triangle or measles CB. A red circle would probably give me a teensie bit more length.

I started doing this in response to watching Jon Kucharo shoot it. He would easily reach the 2nd end rail (15 diamonds) and more often than not stretch it out to the middle of the table again (18-19 diamonds). I've heard that Nevel can do that too...if not a diamond or so more.

Tips for getting better results:
1) chalk up!!
2) concentrate on striking the CB low with a loose wrist
3) draw straight back...any side movement or spin will consume distance
4) use a good follow-thru...move the CB back a little if you double-hit

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AdcU4BdJm1CdYA1Ddii1EdcV1FduE1GdWo1HgHG1IfoW1Jf uj1KflA4Lfem4MfXU4NfiF4Ofjt4PYSf4QaLG4kYSf4kaCq1kR Ej4kKng4laLG4lbrp3qYBGThis_simple_draw_stroke_test _will_reveal_a_lot_about_your_stroke.__I've_illust rated_my_typical_ability...about_12-13_diamonds.&ZZ2rBjdIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_7_diamonds.&ZZ3sDAkIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_15_diamonds.&ZZ1uDjA@

Gregg
05-05-2009, 10:00 AM
IMO power draw is easy compared to drawing the cue ball with control. Some can draw six feet, but can they draw six inches, reliably?

3Bros Billiards
05-05-2009, 10:05 AM
19 diamonds is quite impressive...

IamMark
05-05-2009, 10:16 AM
19 diamonds would be insane, that would be up and down 2 rails and back to the middle? It's a tough test, since table cloth, rails, and ball condition plays such a big factor. There's a video of Mike Massey on youtube doing 15 pretty easily, so I wouldn't be surprised if he could do 19 also.

Neil
05-05-2009, 10:22 AM
...............

instroke75
05-05-2009, 10:56 AM
This is an ironic thread to me, cause I have been doing this for years to test my drawing ability,( 15 is easy, I've done in between 19 and 20 a few times!). I always use this when testing out a new cue or telling someone how I think there cue hits.

Jeremy

okinawa77
05-05-2009, 11:25 AM
19 diamonds would be insane, that would be up and down 2 rails and back to the middle? It's a tough test, since table cloth, rails, and ball condition plays such a big factor. There's a video of Mike Massey on youtube doing 15 pretty easily, so I wouldn't be surprised if he could do 19 also.


Mike Massey had the CB near the side pocket (3 diamonds away from OB), which makes it a more difficult draw shot than the one diagrammed (CB 1.5 diamonds away from OB).

If you want to make the draw shot more challenging, try placing the CB at the head string diamond.

okinawa77
05-05-2009, 11:31 AM
Interesting poll, but everyone should be aware that the equipment you are on makes a HUGE difference in the results. The room I use to play at, two tables side by side. Same cloth, same type balls and cb's. On the one table, it is easy to get table length draw. On the other table, you have to use a power draw to get 5 diamonds of draw.

How tight the cloth is stretched, how much the cb is worn compared to the ob, both have a big effect on the outcome with the same stroke.

I absolutely agree. Have you played on the BCA Diamond 7' Bar Tables?
I try to draw 1 diamond, and end up drawing the length of the table and then some. Those tables are insanely fast. It's almost as if someone decided, let's make the tables so fast, the players will want to smash their heads on a table until their heads bleed.....oh wait...didn't a pro player already do that. :grin:

Jeff G. Martin
05-05-2009, 12:07 PM
IMO power draw is easy compared to drawing the cue ball with control. Some can draw six feet, but can they draw six inches, reliably?

Great point.

scottjen26
05-05-2009, 12:27 PM
Good points from all re: equipment, controlled draw vs. power draw, etc.

Given that, on a typical 9 footer with normal cloth (Simonis 860 etc.) I can reliably get to the bottom end rail. Some days a little less, some days a little more, almost always between 14 and 16. Probably the best I've done is a 17, and I stroked it pure, knew as soon as I hit it. 18 - 19 is impressive, Massey/Nevel territory...

Another shot I play around with is putting the object ball in a about the same spot, maybe a little closer to the pocket, and placing the cue ball on that same line but about 1/2" or so away from the top rail. Elevate and make the ball and draw back to the top rail. I can do this 1 out of 2 or 3 attempts reliably, best I've done with that position is back to the top rail and out to the middle of the table. Thought I had a good stroke until I saw Larry Nevel do it with the cue ball frozen to the top rail, and elevate and draw the cue ball up and down the entire table - I hate him... :grin:

Jude Rosenstock
05-05-2009, 12:28 PM
Interesting poll, but everyone should be aware that the equipment you are on makes a HUGE difference in the results. The room I use to play at, two tables side by side. Same cloth, same type balls and cb's. On the one table, it is easy to get table length draw. On the other table, you have to use a power draw to get 5 diamonds of draw.

How tight the cloth is stretched, how much the cb is worn compared to the ob, both have a big effect on the outcome with the same stroke.

Yeah, I was about to say, EVERYBODY HERE should come to Amsterdam to take this test. You're guaranteed to score about 10-20% better. I can't say I've ever done more than 12 and on slower rails, I'm certain to struggle to get 10.

EDIT: I was off by about 2 diamonds. Should read 12 and 10.

Ant812
05-05-2009, 12:31 PM
i have never tried this one, but when i feel my draw could use work, i set a ball up a few inches from a corner pocket on the footrail and place the cueball behind the headstring. i can usually draw back the full length of the table plus 2 to 3 diamonds. this is on an 8' table with cloth that is medium speed. being so far from the object ball makes you concentrate a little more on a streight stroke, while forcing you to hit deep, low, and LEVEL, all while avoiding a miscue.

Cornerman
05-05-2009, 12:32 PM
I started doing this in response to watching Jon Kucharo shoot it. He would easily reach the 2nd end rail (15 diamonds) and more often than not stretch it out to the middle of the table again (18-19 diamonds). I've heard that Nevel can do that too...if not a diamond or so more.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AdcU4BdJm1CdYA1Ddii1EdcV1FduE1GdWo1HgHG1IfoW1Jf uj1KflA4Lfem4MfXU4NfiF4Ofjt4PYSf4QaLG4kYSf4kaCq1kR Ej4kKng4laLG4lbrp3qYBGThis_simple_draw_stroke_test _will_reveal_a_lot_about_your_stroke.__I've_illust rated_my_typical_ability...about_12-13_diamonds.&ZZ2rBjdIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_7_diamonds.&ZZ3sDAkIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_15_diamonds.&ZZ1uDjA@


Ummm.... not only does Nevel get 19 diamonds, too, but he starts at the other end of the table!

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AdcU4BdJm1CdYA1Ddii1EdcV1FduE1GdWo1HgHG1IfoW1Jf uj1KflA4Lfem4MfXU4NfiF4Ofjt1PbCc4QbjX1kbCc4kbbG1kU Wg4kRti1kOls4lbjX4lbrp3qYBGThis_simple_draw_stroke _test_will_reveal_a_lot_about_your_stroke.__I've_i llustrated_my_typical_ability...about_12-13_diamonds.&ZZ2rBjdIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_7_diamonds.&ZZ3sDAkIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_15_diamonds.&ZZ1uDjA@

Fred <~~~ seen it

grindz
05-05-2009, 01:20 PM
Ummm.... not only does Nevel get 19 diamonds, too, but he starts at the other end of the table!

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AdcU4BdJm1CdYA1Ddii1EdcV1FduE1GdWo1HgHG1IfoW1Jf uj1KflA4Lfem4MfXU4NfiF4Ofjt1PbCc4QbjX1kbCc4kbbG1kU Wg4kRti1kOls4lbjX4lbrp3qYBGThis_simple_draw_stroke _test_will_reveal_a_lot_about_your_stroke.__I've_i llustrated_my_typical_ability...about_12-13_diamonds.&ZZ2rBjdIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_7_diamonds.&ZZ3sDAkIf_you_get_back_to_this_rail,_you've_travel led_15_diamonds.&ZZ1uDjA@

Fred <~~~ seen it

That is SICK!!!! I'm going to go hurl now in disgust of my pitiful stroke....

td

metallicane
05-05-2009, 01:32 PM
Usually 11-12, but sometimes more and sometimes the ball goes flying off the table.

Johnnyt
05-05-2009, 01:45 PM
14 on a bar box
. Johnnyt

MitchAlsup
05-05-2009, 03:19 PM
Table speed (felt), bumper performance, and ball condition have big inputs to how far one can draw the ball.

Firecracker
05-05-2009, 03:42 PM
Table speed (felt), bumper performance, and ball condition have big inputs to how far one can draw the ball.

How about table size too...are we talking 7 ft, 8 ft, 9 ft?

I would say on a 9 ft, 8-10 diamonds, but on a 7 ft, I could probably get 12-14.

JDB
05-05-2009, 05:28 PM
How about table size too...are we talking 7 ft, 8 ft, 9 ft?

I would say on a 9 ft, 8-10 diamonds, but on a 7 ft, I could probably get 12-14.

Very true. I just tried it on my 9 foot with 860 Simonis and got around 11 - 12 (Actually closer to 11, but that was not an option).

I thought I could do better; however, after several tries I consistently came in around 11.

JoeW
05-05-2009, 05:37 PM
Yeah I can get to 12 on my 9 foot table but 9-10 is the usual. Must be these old tired arms ! or is it that I took up pool seriously only a few years ago. For whatever reason the max draw seems to be sufficent for my game.

RiverCity
05-05-2009, 11:52 PM
Trust me, I love draw as much as the next guy...... but what is the purpose of this? Other than bragging rights, I dont know of a game situation where this much draw is needed.
Chuck

Drawman623
05-06-2009, 03:37 AM
15 or 16 on a 9 ft with Simonis. Reasonable accuracy too...and I still don't have the strongest stroke in the room:angry:

okinawa77
05-06-2009, 08:40 AM
Trust me, I love draw as much as the next guy...... but what is the purpose of this? Other than bragging rights, I dont know of a game situation where this much draw is needed.
Chuck


This is a stroke drill to analyze any defects in the delivery of the cue.

If you have side english (off-center), then the CB will come off the head rail at an obscene angle. If you hit the side rail, then you are contacting the OB off-center. If you do not pocket the OB, then you have a lot of work to do.

Once you are able to consistently execute the shot, then you increase your speed/power and try to continue to maintain full control in order to execute the shot properly.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-06-2009, 08:45 AM
this is a stroke drill to analyze any defects in the delivery of the cue.

If you have side english (off-center), then the cb will come off the head rail at an obscene angle. If you hit the side rail, then you are contacting the ob off-center. If you do not pocket the ob, then you have a lot of work to do.

Once you are able to consistently execute the shot, then you increase your speed/power and try to continue to maintain full control in order to execute the shot properly.

that's a great post..... When i'm trying to help somebody develope a bigge stroke, this is one of the tests i use. Power is useless without control.

realkingcobra
05-06-2009, 05:47 PM
A good player only needs to draw the cb into the next position to make the next shot, when I see this kind of draw of the cue ball in tournament play or gambling, then maybe I'll work on my draw shot a little more...and I can already draw the cue ball....to the next shot!!;)

Glen

Cuebuddy
05-06-2009, 06:05 PM
A good player only needs to draw the cb into the next position to make the next shot, when I see this kind of draw of the cue ball in tournament play or gambling, then maybe I'll work on my draw shot a little more...and I can already draw the cue ball....to the next shot!!;)

Glen

I'll vouch for that:wink:.
BTW when spell check trys to fix your name it offers me Loganberry. lmao

scottyr44
05-06-2009, 08:31 PM
15 or 16 on a 9 ft with Simonis. Reasonable accuracy too...and I still don't have the strongest stroke in the room:angry:
You had the strongest for a couple of weeks while his arm was in a sling lol

jsp
05-06-2009, 08:37 PM
Just tried on my 9-footer with 860 simmonis, and I can consistently get between 12-13. Since there is no 12-13 option, I rounded up to 13-14. ;)

And unless you're talking about a barbox, I don't believe any of the posters who claim they can do 19+ diamonds. And I'll continue to disbelieve until I see some video evidence. :thumbup:

RiverCity
05-06-2009, 10:16 PM
A good player only needs to draw the cb into the next position to make the next shot, when I see this kind of draw of the cue ball in tournament play or gambling, then maybe I'll work on my draw shot a little more...and I can already draw the cue ball....to the next shot!!;)

Glen
Bingo!
If a person wants to develop a solid stroke with control, precision and power.... its called a break shot. ;) Practicing a solid hit on the head ball of a full rack with power will accomplish this and more.
Chuck

mullyman
05-06-2009, 10:34 PM
IMO power draw is easy compared to drawing the cue ball with control. Some can draw six feet, but can they draw six inches, reliably?

I'm standing with you on this one. In my 25+ years of playing I've yet to encounter the situation where I needed to draw the cue ball 2 and a half table lengths. On a decent table with decent cloth I can draw the length of the table starting out with a table length between the balls. I honestly have never needed any more than that.
MULLY

mullyman
05-06-2009, 10:49 PM
Actually, looking at the original diagram doesn't tell me that it shows a lot about a persons draw stroke. Getting the cue ball back to the end rail is plenty, end rail and back to center table would be more than enough. Being that close to the OB I see no problem with either shot I just described. You want to test your draw stroke? Do this one instead. This one will separate the men from the boys.
MULLY


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4HbBu2IGjc1PWSI1kWSI4kbBf1kTQP@

mikepage
05-07-2009, 05:01 AM
Just tried on my 9-footer with 860 simmonis, and I can consistently get between 12-13. Since there is no 12-13 option, I rounded up to 13-14. ;)

And unless you're talking about a barbox, I don't believe any of the posters who claim they can do 19+ diamonds. And I'll continue to disbelieve until I see some video evidence. :thumbup:

I just tried on my 9 footer with Simonis 860. I hit the end rail (15) the first three tries in a row. But in all 10 tries, I never got to 16!

There's a few people I play with regularly who can hit the cueball accurately stroking a lot harder than I can. I'm guessing they're going to be in that 19+ range. Maybe I'll set 'em on it....

lee brett
05-07-2009, 06:18 AM
i can screw(draw) the ball 30ft on a snooker table, 9 ball 19 easily on a decent table, not saying it trying to be arrogant, i actually can do this very easy and would happily challenge anyone snooker or 9 ball that i can i have more screw power than anyone, only because of my technique i have more drive than anyone so i have more cue power. watch predator 10 ball next week john morra who i teach this 2...

fastwoltz
05-07-2009, 08:01 AM
i think it has to many varibles table size cue call size cloth and weather are just a few you cant control draw stroke as good as the other strokes any way

jjr183
05-07-2009, 08:15 AM
Trust me, I love draw as much as the next guy...... but what is the purpose of this? Other than bragging rights, I dont know of a game situation where this much draw is needed.
Chuck

Unfortunately I have had the below situation come up a couple of times where I am too straight on the ball to force it over and cannot or do not want to shoot the bank (perhaps due to a blocking ball). The reason I shoot this shot this way is because I know I cannot go past the 9 as the final cue position is near the limit of my drawing ability and I feel comfortable enough with my stroke to shoot this reliably.

Hmmm, perhaps the reason that I cannot get more than 10-11 diamonds is because I just cannot force myself to shoot a regular shot like a break shot. I think its off to the practice table for me tonight...

<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/Player/?@3HYcG4IbHD2PXVF2kXVF3kYSo2kTxi1kURi@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="600" height="400" ></iframe>

Beware_of_Dawg
05-07-2009, 08:35 AM
i hesitated to answer because I think this is more dependant on equipment than anything else. I go to a really fast table with great cloth & rails (strokers/tampa) I think I can rip 15, maybe more. On the tables I play on now, Im lucky to get 10-11. I don't think your poll mentions anything about table size either. Give me a 7ft diamond with new cloth... WOOT. I'm drawing like fuxing picasso. lulz.

CreeDo
05-07-2009, 10:22 AM
Larry nevel can get a 15 one handed (with CB stuck on the rail) on beat-to-hell random barboxes. I had to see the video to believe it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWtyPrgn2VA

You might say "yeah but you're drawing like 4 feet less on a barbox"... but given how nasty the cloth is, I bet the exact same stroke on nice cloth with get a full 15 diamonds on a 9-footer also.

Two handed, who knows what he can do.

But I'm with gregg. Draw distance is neat but it's like judging who can throw a basketball farthest. Past a certain point you don't really need it. If someone can draw to within a ball's width of the 1, then the 2, then the 3... they are doing something more impressive than 20 feet of draw.

stevea
05-07-2009, 10:33 AM
someone kinda said something about this earlier but very little... In Mike Massey trick/skills shot book he put the cue ball at the side pocket about 2 inchs off the side then the object ball on the second Diamond and his best draw the book said would have been your 19 diamond on your scale. We tried this for a while (from his spots on the table) and the best i got was 16 diamonds but couldn't get that consistently.

mosconiac
05-07-2009, 11:18 AM
To everyone that remarked that the shot is pointless, I concur under normal game conditions where precision & accuracy reigns. But you'll be glad you have this shot in your back pocket when a blowhard says he has a strong draw stroke and is inclined to prove it to you. :wink:

<----Has *witnessed* a flurry of gambling centered around this shot.

J.T.450r
05-07-2009, 01:34 PM
15 on an 8x4 w/somonis sometimes 16/17

Ballbreaker
05-07-2009, 02:29 PM
Me and another very good player in my area conducted this test today with several shafts,on a diamond professional table, simonis 860 cloth, vacumed and cleaned, aramith tv set of balls and here are the results, Carolina Custom Merry Widow cue 18.6 oz 3 shots per shaft:

8pc rad lam shaft kamui 2 med tip sold on az billiards

1=13, 2=13.5, 3=12.5

Carolina Cues Stock Shaft Wizard Med Tip

1=14.5, 2=14, 3=14.5

ob-1 shaft everest tip

1= 12, 2=12.5, 3=12.5

ob-2 shaft everest tip

1=15, 2=14.5, 3=16.5

Searing shaft wizard med tip

1=18.5, 2=17, 3= 17.5

pred 314 everest tip

1=13.5, 2=14, 3=14

pred 314-2 everest tip

1=14.5, 2=14, 3=15

pred z shaft everest tip

1=15, 2 14.5, 3=15

now im tired,lol;)

wolfcookie
05-07-2009, 02:36 PM
I dont see any reson to draw a C/B that far.. I can say I have over drawn A C/B more than 13-15 but why.. At takes A heck of alot more skill to draw 3 feet or 3in. perfect when you need to..

Andrew Henson
05-07-2009, 03:25 PM
I can get 11-12 consistently. I was playing BCA on a horrible team and drew one like crazy, they were all impressed even though I missed the shot. Doesn't matter unless you can control whitey and help play better position.

Cornerman
05-07-2009, 04:15 PM
I dont see any reson to draw a C/B that far.. I can say I have over drawn A C/B more than 13-15 but why.. At takes A heck of alot more skill to draw 3 feet or 3in. perfect when you need to..

It comes up. We're all pool players. We should be able to shoot over the top power draws. I really don't ever see why anyone would object to seeing how far you can draw.

I mean, really, if you're faced with the straight back 9'+ draw where the object ball and cueball are 8' or 9' away, why wouldn't you want to make sure that you've actually executed the stroke before?

And please let's not give the BS answer about playing better position. That's a copout. We all get left shots time to time.

Fred

Cornerman
05-07-2009, 04:21 PM
Actually, looking at the original diagram doesn't tell me that it shows a lot about a persons draw stroke. Getting the cue ball back to the end rail is plenty, end rail and back to center table would be more than enough. Being that close to the OB I see no problem with either shot I just described. You want to test your draw stroke? Do this one instead. This one will separate the men from the boys.
MULLY


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4HbBu2IGjc1PWSI1kWSI4kbBf1kTQP@

I agree with you. And I think it really is the same type of stroke we're talking about. It comes up. And sometimes we're left the shot and there's no safe.

Here's one I shot in a tournament. And I think there's no reason to play safe. I don't see why a pool player wouldn't want to test themselves on this shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4GaED1HQOX4IbQH1PNsi1kNsi4kYub1kMfX1kJcq@

Fred <~~~ crappy draw stroke

CreeDo
05-07-2009, 05:41 PM
That was a pretty cool detailed test ballbreaker. So the shaft choice matters a lot with draw, not just sidespin? Looks like Searing (which I don't hear talked about much) draws like a madman.

Black-Balled
05-08-2009, 06:52 AM
i can screw(draw) the ball 30ft on a snooker table, 9 ball 19 easily on a decent table, not saying it trying to be arrogant, i actually can do this very easy and would happily challenge anyone snooker or 9 ball that i can i have more screw power than anyone, only because of my technique i have more drive than anyone so i have more cue power. watch predator 10 ball next week john morra who i teach this 2...


I would love to see this on video. I find it hard to think one of your qualifications/ knowledge would post somethin you couldn't do...

30ft on that napped lawn is a damn looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way.

Monstermash
05-09-2009, 07:41 AM
I find it interesting that the OP mentions how different equpiment effects the amount of draw he is able to achieve. While it does have some effect I have seen "players" that can't draw 4" with any cue/shaft/tip combo. That being said, I also know players that could draw the length of the table with a broom stick with a tip glued to the end.

RiverCity
05-09-2009, 09:42 PM
One of the biggest keys to the draw shot is the contact point between the tip and the cueball. A lot of people arent hitting the ball where they think they are. Thats when practicing with a striped ball, or one of the countless training balls out there comes in handy. Having visual proof of where the tip is actually hitting the cue ball shocks some people. Ive seen people hitting a half inch higher than they thought they were.
Chuck

Rod
05-12-2009, 10:21 AM
I set this up and shot it One Time. That was after playing 6 hrs of 1 pocket. I figure if you need that much draw you only have one chance in the real world. 16+ diamonds was ok even though when it hit the other end rail it had a little holding english which killed the speed a little.

Power draws come up at times but as some have said it doesn't matter how far, its how accurate are you when you need it.

Rod

juggler314
05-12-2009, 11:34 AM
I think there are situations where way more than normal draw comes in useful. Occasionally it comes up that I need to draw back into a cluster of balls, break them up and have the cue (hopefully) go through them and continue down the table to get into some (usually relatively large) position area.

Much like a standard force follow break shot in straight pool, where you need the cue to go through the stack and keep going. Only with massive draw can you draw back, have it hit another ball full on with enough power to break a small cluster and keep going.

The debate over whether or not you really should ever have to do that is another one (one could argue that needing to do that just means you got bad position or played a bad pattern in the first place).

I think a situation like that I am more likely to do a full power draw, than the OP diagram. I can't think of a single time I've ever needed to draw more than perhaps 9 or so diamonds other than to show off. 9 diamonds will get you from the center of the table, back to the short rail and back to the center again. I suppose occasionally a situation would come up where you might need to go from center, back to the rail and back to the other rail too, but that would come up way less often.