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ArizonaPete
05-05-2009, 02:25 PM
I'm thinking about buying a performance shaft - either a Predator or OB. I'm leaning toward the OB. But I'm not convinced that a low deflection shaft will help my game. If I do decide to buy one, the next question is should I get a 13mm tip (which I'm accustomed to and like) or should I go all the way with the OB-2 or Z shaft with an 11.75mm tip? I've shot for about 1/2 hour with a 12.5 mm tip and I feel I can hit the cue ball more accurately but seem to lose a little on drawback (can't hit the cue ball as low without jumping). Perhaps I need more playing time with the smaller diameter cue. Unfortunately there's no large pool hall in the area where I can try various cues.

I'd appreciate opinions on the pros and cons of going to something like a 11.75 mm tip size. And any opinions on whether low deflection shafts really help improve your game.

prewarhero
05-05-2009, 02:28 PM
For me, the smaller the size the easier it is to cue up in my bridge hand. 13mm is too fat for me to used a closed bridge and still be comfortable.

socks
05-05-2009, 02:56 PM
theres more differance between 314/ob-1 and z/ob-2 than just tip size. they have different tapers.

the 314 and ob-1 have a 15" pro taper, that means the shaft is 12.75mm starting at the tip and going back 15" staying a consistant 12.75mm and then is a cone up to the joint the rest of the way.

the z and ob-2 shafts are a strait or conical taper where the tip is 11.75mm and its a steady increase in size back to the joint, like a cone.


the later two will provide a stiffer hit and the cone affect provides stability and reduces flex in the shaft. but the smaller tip size will allow you to go further out on the edges of the cue ball without miscueing to apply more spin/english

mcdpool
05-05-2009, 04:04 PM
I'm sorry, but I saw the "pros & cons of small tip size" right under the "shanelle loraine in finals" thread... and had to laugh out loud! :) Just had to share.

center pocket
05-05-2009, 04:33 PM
That is pretty funny!!!:rotflmao1:

enzo
05-05-2009, 04:38 PM
pros
-more spin, especially on softly hit shots
-more draw (same as more spin i guess)

con
-more difficult to attain a centerball (ie no english) hit

in general, can shoot softer (which is great), but you'll have more trouble getting a dead flat ball.

the only spot in my game that didn't improve with my 314 was masse shots where you're curving around a ball to make a hit. you cant do that as well (cant curve as much) with a LD shaft. this really is the only shot that has gone downhill for me.

PDX
05-05-2009, 04:53 PM
I play with both a full shaft and an 11.5mm shaft, and I like them both. I will have to say that the 11.5 is a 30 year old shaft, the cue is a little thicker at the joint and not cored. It plays wonderful. I also play with a full 13 on my Runde, which is nice a firm. Actually, both cues are quite firm. There are more factors involved other that tip size. I can't speak for LD shafts as I am not a fan. But thinner has it's merits, as does thicker. I probably didn't help at all.

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 04:57 PM
the smaller tip size will allow you to go further out on the edges of the cue ball without miscueing to apply more spin/english

pros
-more spin, especially on softly hit shots
-more draw (same as more spin i guess)

con
-more difficult to attain a centerball (ie no english) hit

in general, can shoot softer (which is great), but you'll have more trouble getting a dead flat ball.

masse shots where you're curving around a ball to make a hit. you cant do that as well (cant curve as much) with a LD shaft

Sorry, but none of these are true. Everything works the same with a smaller tip except:

- it produces less squirt
- it's easier to see where you're hitting the cue ball

All the rest is just being unfamiliar with it.

pj
chgo

Surly
05-05-2009, 05:03 PM
I have an 11.5 tip and a 13.

The 11.5 really made me focus on my contact with the cue ball. It was like, "Jeez, this is like shooting with a pencil!" It was almost like it was marking the lines like a laser. Or an arrow.

The I put a Ram tip on it and everything went to hell. I'm shooting with my 13 now, my game has come back, and I don't 'need' to pay such myopic attention to the contact point.... which is nice.

I agree that the smaller tip called for a softer stroke, and the draw was wicked.

Rich93
05-05-2009, 05:12 PM
Sorry, but none of these are true. Everything works the same with a smaller tip except:

- it produces less squirt
- it's easier to see where you're hitting the cue ball

All the rest is just being unfamiliar with it.

pj
chgo

Judging by my results on up-and-down-the-table practice shots (shoot from the foot spot straight to the center of the far short cushion, see if the ball comes back over the foot spot), I think it may be slightly more difficult to hit center ball with a smaller tip.

Cue 1 is my playing cue with a 12mm tip. Cue 2 is a break cue with a 13mm pretty flat tip. On the few times I've tried it, Cue 2 does better on this shot. Could just be a small sample anomaly. Also, it gives me an handy excuse for failing to pass the test with the 12mm. But I wonder if there isn't something to it.

Patrick Johnson
05-05-2009, 05:22 PM
Rich93:
Judging by my results on up-and-down-the-table practice shots (shoot from the foot spot straight to the center of the far short cushion, see if the ball comes back over the foot spot), I think it may be slightly more difficult to hit center ball with a smaller tip.

Maybe the unfamiliarity of the tip's size makes it a little harder for you to see when it's centered (until you're familiar with it), but you have to hit centerball just as accurately with either tip, and you get precisely the same reaction for the same amount of error (assuming the same tip curvature).

pj
chgo

3kushn
05-05-2009, 08:00 PM
I'm thinking about buying a performance shaft - either a Predator or OB. I'm leaning toward the OB. But I'm not convinced that a low deflection shaft will help my game. If I do decide to buy one, the next question is should I get a 13mm tip (which I'm accustomed to and like) or should I go all the way with the OB-2 or Z shaft with an 11.75mm tip? I've shot for about 1/2 hour with a 12.5 mm tip and I feel I can hit the cue ball more accurately but seem to lose a little on drawback (can't hit the cue ball as low without jumping). Perhaps I need more playing time with the smaller diameter cue. Unfortunately there's no large pool hall in the area where I can try various cues.

I'd appreciate opinions on the pros and cons of going to something like a 11.75 mm tip size. And any opinions on whether low deflection shafts really help improve your game.

"Losing draw simply means you're not contacting the CB where you think you are, assuming all is well with your stroke. Pat Johnson leads to a good point. You have to get used to the shaft. 30 minutes isn't even close to enough time. You need hours or better yet, days or months to determine what you need unless you're such a player that people are feeding you cues for endorsement or you're constantly experimenting with different designs.

I speculate that the draw difference is simply not being used to seeing the CB with a smaller tip and maybe you're lining up the top of the smaller tip where the top of the larger tip was. The actual contact point is very small and a 1 or 2mm difference in contact point makes a huge difference in CB action. It's gonna take time.

Pick the one that's gonna give you the overall picture you want then play for a few months then decide if it was the right choice. Sorry and I know it's hard sometimes to spend a couple of C-notes on a shaft. Used to be able to buy a cue for that. Maybe 2.

Good luck.

scottyr44
05-05-2009, 08:19 PM
well hitting the cue ball any lower will not impart more spin on the cue ball so the smaller tip will not help in that fact, also a larger tip helps with applying the most spin. Under the idea that the more leather you touch the cue ball with the more friction is created. Just remember the best way to apply english is with a good stroke.<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/Player/?@4AadE4PaSy4TacF3phpS4UadE4UbbF4kaSy1kUvl3kDxt3kH VY3kHeVzb1uBnA@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="600" height="400" ></iframe>

this is the best i can do on tables around here but if you notice my tip position it is no more than a half of a tip
you shouldn't use more than a half of tip in any direction to apply the most spin possible, practice your stroke.

JoseV
05-05-2009, 08:50 PM
To each there own i like my 13mm shaft and will never switch.

bencho
05-05-2009, 09:14 PM
I used to play with this guy who used to go to my school. He graduated last year and is now doing grad somewhere else. Played with a Z and he *****ed EVERY time he missed shot or shape. I used to hate it but I've played with a Z and now have a Z2, as well as 314 and 314-2. I've come to understand that smaller tips exacerbate every mistake you make. If your stroke is off by the slightest bit, it makes you miss by a mile. I do not see the same effect in the 314/314-2. Now I realize the frustration that guy experienced after his shots.

So to answer your question, LD shafts do help. but moving around from shaft to shaft really messes up your game when it takes a little bit of time to readjust. If you're coming from a standard/stock shaft, I'd recommend starting with a 12.75, i.e. predator/ob1. Learn how the reduced deflection affects the way you shoot. Then move on to thinner shafts if you really want to, i.e. Z/ob2. I've had a friend jump from stock shaft straight to Z and he got extremely frustrated when he couldn't control it. Take small steps!

Deadon
05-05-2009, 09:45 PM
So to answer your question, LD shafts do help. but moving around from shaft to shaft really messes up your game when it takes a little bit of time to readjust. If you're coming from a standard/stock shaft, I'd recommend starting with a 12.75, i.e. predator/ob1. Learn how the reduced deflection affects the way you shoot. Then move on to thinner shafts if you really want to, i.e. Z/ob2. I've had a friend jump from stock shaft straight to Z and he got extremely frustrated when he couldn't control it. Take small steps!

Good advice, and the tip size helps you get lower on the CB without miscuing. That is if you like to cue real low, which I do.

thefonz
05-05-2009, 10:26 PM
i don't think the benefit is in the low deflection aspect of the shafts, if you have a good stroke the difference should be minimal. the biggest difference is the amount of spin you can apply to the cueball and the amount of throw that is imparted on the object ball (which does need some getting used to) many top players will attest to the fact that there are some things you can do with predator or ob shafts which are much more difficult with a regular one. this is usually making the cueball do some pretty cool things especially using reverse side and draw.

JimS
05-06-2009, 04:25 AM
Sorry, but none of these are true. Everything works the same with a smaller tip except:

- it produces less squirt
- it's easier to see where you're hitting the cue ball

All the rest is just being unfamiliar with it.

pj
chgo

True dat!

The characteristics can be argued or "discussed" all day but the bottom line is of course a high performance shaft helps one shoot more accurately and which size is just a matter of preference.

Get a Z2 and take the time to get used to the conical taper. Once you become acclimatized to it you'll find a new dimension to your game as you cb stays on course better and you enjoy seeing more accurately exactly where on the cb the tip will be striking.

The contact area on the cb is the same whether the tip is 10mm or 15mm. You get the same amount of spin/english regardless of the cue tip size except the small tip allows the contact point to be a bit lower and will produce more draw while strking the cb with less force. This is useful because you'll be shooting more softly and consequently be jawiing/jarring fewer shots.

I cannot fathom why people are so afraid of small tips. They are more precise and precision is the name of the game! No contest! Precision is what is needed to pot balls and move the cb to exactly the pin-point where you want it.

Patrick Johnson
05-06-2009, 06:58 AM
well hitting the cue ball any lower will not impart more spin on the cue ball

This is not true. Hitting the cue ball farther from center is the only way to impart more spin.

so the smaller tip will not help in that fact

A smaller tip doesn't hit lower anyway.

...also a larger tip helps with applying the most spin. Under the idea that the more leather you touch the cue ball with the more friction is created.

This is also not true. More leather touching the cue ball doesn't produce more friction.

you shouldn't use more than a half of tip in any direction to apply the most spin possible

Also not true. The most spin is applied by hitting the cue ball as far from center as possible (maximum is about halfway from center to edge).

...practice your stroke.

Finally, something I agree with. :)

pj
chgo

CueSportTV
05-06-2009, 07:37 AM
I have always thought that the small tip size has led to more control of the cue ball, obviously thought this depends on how accurate your cueing is. English pool players (on our snooker like tables with 2" balls) use tips as small as 6mm - big difference is that on a smaller table you have to do less with the cue ball anyway.

I prefer a slightly smaller tip due to having played snooker in the past

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-06-2009, 09:00 AM
Smaller tip= you better have a good stroke

bigger tip= more forgiving

Patrick Johnson
05-06-2009, 10:16 AM
Smaller tip= you better have a good stroke

bigger tip= more forgiving

Nope. No difference (for the same tip curvature).

pj
chgo

scottyr44
05-06-2009, 11:17 AM
This is not true. Hitting the cue ball farther from center is the only way to impart more spin.



A smaller tip doesn't hit lower anyway.



This is also not true. More leather touching the cue ball doesn't produce more friction.



Also not true. The most spin is applied by hitting the cue ball as far from center as possible (maximum is about halfway from center to edge).



Finally, something I agree with. :)

pj
chgo
well i guess i was misunderstood after re reading my post i wasn't very clear
1. i produce the most spin possible by using a contact point that is closer to the center than the lowest point which is about halfway
2. and yes the more contact surface, ie leather does transfer more spin than less contact surface due to the fact there is contact longer but with a ld shaft the tip stays in contact with the cue ball longer hence less squirt and the meaning low deflection but this also allows a smaller tip to impart the same amount if not more friction to a cueball
if you choose to disagree you can ask someone who useses a masse cue on a regular basis which usually run around 13 to 14 mm

JoeyA
05-06-2009, 02:46 PM
I'm thinking about buying a performance shaft - either a Predator or OB. I'm leaning toward the OB. But I'm not convinced that a low deflection shaft will help my game. If I do decide to buy one, the next question is should I get a 13mm tip (which I'm accustomed to and like) or should I go all the way with the OB-2 or Z shaft with an 11.75mm tip? I've shot for about 1/2 hour with a 12.5 mm tip and I feel I can hit the cue ball more accurately but seem to lose a little on drawback (can't hit the cue ball as low without jumping). Perhaps I need more playing time with the smaller diameter cue. Unfortunately there's no large pool hall in the area where I can try various cues.

I'd appreciate opinions on the pros and cons of going to something like a 11.75 mm tip size. And any opinions on whether low deflection shafts really help improve your game.

Pete,
First off, the Predator 314-2 and the OB 1 shafts are 12.75 MM.

The OB-2 and the Z-2 are 11.75 mm.

I have a 314-2 and like it just fine, however I am getting an OB1 shaft soon. I had one of those Earl Strickland 20" straight taper OB1 shafts but it didn't work for me. The long tapered stick/shaft was stolen and someone else wound up with the darn thing and now I am ready to give the OB 1 another go but with the standard taper that comes with it.

It sounds like you may have a little trouble with the 11.75 mm shafts and if I were you I would stay with the 12.75 mm shafts.

Low deflection shafts whether you simply cut down a traditional maple shaft by careful sanding over time or if you buy a new technology shaft like the OB 1 shaft, lower deflection is a good thing, imo.

But that's just my $.02. :)

JoeyA

Patrick Johnson
05-06-2009, 07:32 PM
well i guess i was misunderstood after re reading my post i wasn't very clear

I understand you fine; you're just wrong about everything.

1. i produce the most spin possible by using a contact point that is closer to the center than the lowest point which is about halfway

No you don't.

2. and yes the more contact surface, ie leather does transfer more spin than less contact surface due to the fact there is contact longer

None of this is true.

but with a ld shaft the tip stays in contact with the cue ball longer

No, it doesn't.

hence less squirt

If you could get longer contact time it would mean more squirt, not less. But you can't, so it's moot.

this also allows a smaller tip to impart the same amount if not more friction to a cueball

??

if you choose to disagree you can ask someone who useses a masse cue on a regular basis which usually run around 13 to 14 mm

I don't "choose" to disagree. I have no choice because nothing you said is true.

pj
chgo

JimS
05-07-2009, 03:33 AM
RE: Patrick's post above... it's not choose to disagree. It's a statement of facts. As in proven. :groucho:

scottyr44
05-10-2009, 05:21 AM
maybe you could explain to me why i can draw up to 20 feet with using half a tip of english because apparently i have know idea about this game

Patrick Johnson
05-10-2009, 12:04 PM
maybe you could explain to me why i can draw up to 20 feet with using half a tip of english

Sure I can: you're making it up.

pj
chgo

DeepBanks
05-10-2009, 02:32 PM
I'm sorry, but I saw the "pros & cons of small tip size" right under the "shanelle loraine in finals" thread... and had to laugh out loud! :) Just had to share.

tip size . . . yuuuup!

Rich93
05-10-2009, 03:15 PM
maybe you could explain to me why i can draw up to 20 feet with using half a tip of english because apparently i have know idea about this game

No offense to you, scottyr44, but your comment brings to mind a controversy from a few years ago. Mike Sigel, by anybody's standard one of the greatest players of all time, wrote in a Billiards Digest instructional article that english does not throw the object ball. I think he said it curves the cue ball so you only think it's throwing the object ball. When challenged, he came back with just about the same words, that he knows something about this game.

How someone of Mike Sigel's accomplishments could be so wrong about something so basic, is one of the pool's biggest mysteries to date. Of course, I am not worthy to scuff his cue tip and readily acknowledge that.

chin0
05-10-2009, 04:26 PM
I heard a rumor that size does matter :D the tip I think can stimulate better when it is bigger LMFAO jk

I like a smaller tip because I can hit better with it and it can spin the CB better IMO

poolplayer2093
05-10-2009, 04:39 PM
well hitting the cue ball any lower will not impart more spin on the cue ball so the smaller tip will not help in that fact, also a larger tip helps with applying the most spin. Under the idea that the more leather you touch the cue ball with the more friction is created. Just remember the best way to apply english is with a good stroke.<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/Player/?@4AadE4PaSy4TacF3phpS4UadE4UbbF4kaSy1kUvl3kDxt3kH VY3kHeVzb1uBnA@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="600" height="400" ></iframe>

this is the best i can do on tables around here but if you notice my tip position it is no more than a half of a tip
you shouldn't use more than a half of tip in any direction to apply the most spin possible, practice your stroke.


i don't buy that man. i've heard all that "it's not how low you hit it" stuff before. but from what i've seen plenty of players cue lower or further over on the ball to get the effect they want.

scottyr44
05-10-2009, 10:53 PM
well i'm glad you automatically assume i'm lying i appreciate that, i'll tell you what when i get back to the states i will video tape it and post on you tube using that rempe ball and show you where i hit the cue ball.

dragon81
05-10-2009, 11:00 PM
I just got two z2 shafts to replace my original 314's....it is taking some adjustment but a few more practice sessions and I will be ok.
I have never shot with an OB so not sure about a comparison.

JXMIKE
05-10-2009, 11:03 PM
OMG patrick johnson you are a nit, you just quote what everybody says in this thread and say no your wrong with nothing to back it up, someones got a napoleon complex, like a little kid saying nope your wrong im right no matter how stupid your stance is.

Get a life bro.



First time someone on this forum has pissed me off.

scottyr44
05-10-2009, 11:27 PM
No offense to you, scottyr44, but your comment brings to mind a controversy from a few years ago. Mike Sigel, by anybody's standard one of the greatest players of all time, wrote in a Billiards Digest instructional article that english does not throw the object ball. I think he said it curves the cue ball so you only think it's throwing the object ball. When challenged, he came back with just about the same words, that he knows something about this game.

How someone of Mike Sigel's accomplishments could be so wrong about something so basic, is one of the pool's biggest mysteries to date. Of course, I am not worthy to scuff his cue tip and readily acknowledge that.
Mike sigel is correct the cue ball does curve when you apply side spin the cue ball which changes the angle which it hits the object ball and will throw the object ball. this curve is less with a ld shaft but still happens. when you learn to shoot a shot with side spin you brain makes the correction in the aiming point to compensate for the curve you just don't know it.

Patrick Johnson
05-10-2009, 11:31 PM
well i'm glad you automatically assume i'm lying i appreciate that, i'll tell you what when i get back to the states i will video tape it and post on you tube using that rempe ball and show you where i hit the cue ball.

If you get 20 feet of draw hitting 1/4" below center (a half tip) I'll pay you $100.

I'll be impressed if you get 20 feet of draw hitting anywhere on the cue ball.

pj
chgo

scottyr44
05-10-2009, 11:39 PM
Gladly where is your pool hall or local place of play? I will gladly stop there on my way home from korea for mid tour. June 15th
and i said up to 20 feet on average it is 16 to 18 feet

scottyr44
05-10-2009, 11:41 PM
i don't buy that man. i've heard all that "it's not how low you hit it" stuff before. but from what i've seen plenty of players cue lower or further over on the ball to get the effect they want.
No offense as well but where someone "cue's" as in where they aim on the cue ball and where they hit are two different places

dr_dave
05-11-2009, 09:17 AM
I'm thinking about buying a performance shaft - either a Predator or OB. I'm leaning toward the OB. But I'm not convinced that a low deflection shaft will help my game. If I do decide to buy one, the next question is should I get a 13mm tip (which I'm accustomed to and like) or should I go all the way with the OB-2 or Z shaft with an 11.75mm tip? I've shot for about 1/2 hour with a 12.5 mm tip and I feel I can hit the cue ball more accurately but seem to lose a little on drawback (can't hit the cue ball as low without jumping). Perhaps I need more playing time with the smaller diameter cue. Unfortunately there's no large pool hall in the area where I can try various cues.

I'd appreciate opinions on the pros and cons of going to something like a 11.75 mm tip size. And any opinions on whether low deflection shafts really help improve your game.It is important to distinguish between tip size (shaft diameter) and tip shape (tip radius). For more info of the effects of both, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html#size

As for the advantages and disadvantages of low-squirt cues, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt

Regards,
Dave