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cuetable
05-06-2009, 10:30 PM
Hi, as I am adding instructional videos (http://talk.cuetable.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82) to the screening room (http://talk.cuetable.com/forumdisplay.php?f=56), I came across this one:

http://talk.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=5699#post5699

Isn't this a foul where you hit the cue ball twice?

mullyman
05-06-2009, 10:39 PM
Not 100% sure if it's legal or not from this angle. I know you can shoot that high and have the tip glance off the ball thus missing the foul.
MULLY
I like how he missed the shot but they edited it going straight in the pocket. He was off about a diamond before they changed camera angles. hehe!!

Jeff G. Martin
05-06-2009, 11:00 PM
It looks like it'd be a double hit to me. If shooting through a frozen OB is a double hit, wouldn't it stand that shooting through a rail while the CB is frozen is also a double hit? He scratched anyways. :thumbup:

curlyscues
05-06-2009, 11:03 PM
Not 100% sure if it's legal or not from this angle. I know you can shoot that high and have the tip glance off the ball thus missing the foul.
MULLY
I like how he missed the shot but they edited it going straight in the pocket. He was off about a diamond before they changed camera angles. hehe!!

i think that's how he double hit it. ;)

M.C.

Drew
05-06-2009, 11:08 PM
I'd call it a foul. He missed it BAD!!!

TWOFORPOOL
05-06-2009, 11:09 PM
First of all if you are frozen to an object ball you can't double hit the cue ball.

This shot looks legal to me since he didn't double hit the cue ball. He cut the cue ball off the rail so it came off the rail at an angle away from the object ball. The angle made it hit the object ball at angle therebye cutting the ball in the pocket.

Mullyman is right though he did miss the shot but they put in another shot to see it go in.

dave sutton
05-07-2009, 12:34 AM
exactly. a frozen ball can not be a double hit. also to avoid the push you have to shoot away which he did. the only way the shot was a foull is bc he scratched

AkersCues
05-07-2009, 12:55 AM
First of all if you are frozen to an object ball you can't double hit the cue ball.

This shot looks legal to me since he didn't double hit the cue ball. He cut the cue ball off the rail so it came off the rail at an angle away from the object ball. The angle made it hit the object ball at angle therebye cutting the ball in the pocket.

Mullyman is right though he did miss the shot but they put in another shot to see it go in.

I agree as long as the cue ball is frozen to the rail its a clean hit imo, take it for what its worth

Patrick Johnson
05-07-2009, 01:02 AM
...a frozen ball can not be a double hit.

That's true when you stroke toward the object ball and there are no nearby obstacles to prevent the OB from moving freely away. In this case you're stroking away from the OB so that principle doesn't apply.

also to avoid the push you have to shoot away

There's no push when you stroke toward the object ball, the same as there's no double hit. It's an entirely legal hit. But in this case it's the rail, not the OB, that might cause the foul.

the only way the shot was a foull is bc he scratched

He didn't scratch, but the shot could have been a double hit or a push if the rail prevented the OB from getting out of the way of the follow through. I don't think this happened because of the wide angle the OB was hit into the rail, allowing it to rebound freely away without being "trapped" by the tip.

It's an interesting shot - actually a kick shot.

pj
chgo

12squared
05-07-2009, 01:05 AM
First of all if you are frozen to an object ball you can't double hit the cue ball.

Since he hit away from the frozen ball, I don't think that rule is in effect for this shot. That rule is to take a normal stroke into the frozen ball. He did not double hit the cue ball, he hit the CB into the rail at such an angle that it compressed into the rail and rebounded out cutting the 9-ball. There have been many variations of this shot in both pool and 3-cushion. If you aim the cue ball flatter to the rail (with a little mor speed), you can miss the 9 all together and do some other stuff with the cue including draw the CB to make a ball in the opposite corner around what appears to be blocking balls. It's the same shot.

Dave

dave sutton
05-07-2009, 01:18 AM
That's true when you stroke toward the object ball and there are no nearby obstacles to prevent the OB from moving freely away. In this case you're stroking away from the OB so that principle doesn't apply.



There's no push when you stroke toward the object ball, the same as there's no double hit. It's an entirely legal hit. But in this case it's the rail, not the OB, that might cause the foul.



He didn't scratch, but the shot could have been a double hit or a push if the rail prevented the OB from getting out of the way of the follow through. I don't think this happened because of the wide angle the OB was hit into the rail, allowing it to rebound freely away without being "trapped" by the tip.

It's an interesting shot - actually a kick shot.

pj
chgo

thank you i guess for quoting everything i said then saying the exact same thing.

also if you watch the last few seconds of the video he did scratch... obv it was a joke...:thumbup:

as far as shooting away if a ball is not about a chalks length apart you have to jack up or shoot away. you can not shoot straight thru the ball. push everytime with any forward movement of the cueball. basically impossible to not push or double hitm it applies to this shot but maybe better to some others that can come up in a game

Patrick Johnson
05-07-2009, 01:40 AM
thank you i guess for quoting everything i said then saying the exact same thing.

LOL. If I said the same thing, why are you disagreeing with me?

...as far as shooting away if a ball is not about a chalks length apart you have to jack up or shoot away. you can not shoot straight thru the ball. push everytime with any forward movement of the cueball. basically impossible to not push or double hit

The rules say otherwise:

WPA World Standardized Rules

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.7

6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
...if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball

it applies to this shot

How can it apply to this shot if he's shooting away from the OB?

pj
chgo

GeorgeFW
05-07-2009, 01:46 AM
Didn't you guys see this shot in the movie "The Hustler"? This was the shot they beat the bartender with at the start of the movie.

dave sutton
05-07-2009, 02:02 AM
ok.. lets do it your way

LOL. If I said the same thing, why are you disagreeing with me?



i wasnt disagreeing with you. i thanked you for repeating me



The rules say otherwise:

again thank you for repeating exactly what i said. you can not push if the balls are TOUCHING. key word is TOUCHING. i also gave the rule for a push if the balls are NOT TOUCHING. you must jack up or shoot away. any FORWARD movement is considered a foul


How can it apply to this shot if he's shooting away from the OB?

i thought i stated in the very first sentence of my post that it is NOT a foul

hope this helps

14-1StraightMan
05-07-2009, 05:19 AM
Hi, as I am adding instructional videos (http://talk.cuetable.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82) to the screening room (http://talk.cuetable.com/forumdisplay.php?f=56), I came across this one:

http://talk.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=5699#post5699

Isn't this a foul where you hit the cue ball twice?

Good legal shot but he missed it. The 9-ball was heading rght for the rail and they switch scenes showing the 9 going into the pocket. You think they would of filmed it a few times to get it right.....

gulfportdoc
05-07-2009, 06:09 AM
Didn't you guys see this shot in the movie "The Hustler"? This was the shot they beat the bartender with at the start of the movie.
Actually the balls were reversed. The OB was on the rail. The CB was frozen to it.

Doc

Patrick Johnson
05-07-2009, 07:47 AM
I wasnt disagreeing with you.

OK. Sorry if I misread you. It was a little difficult to understand what you were saying.

To be clear, my point was that it's not a double hit or a push to stroke normally toward the OB when the CB and OB are frozen together. But none of that applies here because the CB is being hit away from the OB.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
05-07-2009, 07:53 AM
By the way, why is this a poll? The written explanations should be valuable, but rules aren't popularity contests.

pj
chgo

poolfoole
05-07-2009, 08:17 AM
Looks like a legal shot to me. Doesn't look like a double hit. Very similar to Paul Newman's Hustler bank shot.

cuetable
05-07-2009, 08:57 AM
page 1 is a diagram for the shot in the video

page 2 is a diagram for the shot in the Hustler.

I kept thinking the tip would hit the cue ball twice in both layouts.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1IYFG1PbaG1TcXE3phqT1kbaG1kcXD@2IUWS2PUOj2TTqC3p hst2dUWS3dbSt2kUOj2kUGs@

Patrick Johnson
05-07-2009, 09:08 AM
...a diagram for the shot in the Hustler.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2IUWS2PUOj2TTqC3phst2dUWS3dbSt2kUOj2kUGs@

I think this is the shot in The Hustler:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2IbBH2PXXH2TXgH3phus2dbBH1dbCd@

I'm pretty sure it's a foul.

pj
chgo

cuetable
05-07-2009, 09:25 AM
I think this is the shot in The Hustler:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2IbBH2PXXH2TXgH3phus2dbBH1dbCd@

I'm pretty sure it's a foul.

pj
chgo

You are correct, the shot on my page 2 was from The Color of Money

Is that a foul?

mbvl
05-07-2009, 09:36 AM
Since he hit away from the frozen ball, I don't think that rule is in effect for this shot. That rule is to take a normal stroke into the frozen ball. He did not double hit the cue ball, he hit the CB into the rail at such an angle that it compressed into the rail and rebounded out cutting the 9-ball. There have been many variations of this shot in both pool and 3-cushion. If you aim the cue ball flatter to the rail (with a little mor speed), you can miss the 9 all together and do some other stuff with the cue including draw the CB to make a ball in the opposite corner around what appears to be blocking balls. It's the same shot.

Dave

Dave,

However, the shot as described (if set up on a carom table) would be illegal in all carom games. You may not shoot into a cushion to which you are frozen, just as you may not shoot into a ball to which you are frozen.

Here is the appropriate rule (although the "English" transation is cumbersome, at best):

"8. If the player plays directly with the cue-ball the cushion with which it would be in contact, without having detached it by means of a detached massť stroke in advance, [it is a foul] (indicated by "ball in contact)"

I know from experience that many carom players are not aware of this rule.

Mark

CreeDo
05-07-2009, 10:05 AM
There is a common trick shot based on this, forget the nickname it has... "the great escape" maybe.

You kick into the rail, the cue ball never touches the ball it's frozen to because the rubber compresses enough to let the CB get out of the way. With the right amount of running english, it travels 3 rails and comes back to its original position, caroming off the back of that ball to hit the hanger.

Not a foul.

http://creedo.gbgl-hq.com/escapetrickshot.jpg

Patrick Johnson
05-07-2009, 10:13 AM
Wei:
...the shot on my page 2 was from The Color of Money:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2IUWS2PUOj2TTqC3phst2dUWS3dbSt2kUOj2kUGs@
Is that a foul?

Since the CB is driven more or less straight into the rail for this shot it's probably a double hit or a push, unless the foul is avoided with a "fouette" cueing technique - using maximum english so the tip "caroms" off the cue ball without double hitting it.

pj
chgo

Tennesseejoe
05-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Unless you can see/hear that it is a foul--I don't think anyone should be able to call "foul".

spoons
05-07-2009, 02:41 PM
First things' first. As an instructional video, I would rate it subpar at best. If for no other reason than the vagueness of his description of how to hit the shot. "The only thing that you have to do is shoot the cue ball into the rail. And, shoot it with a moderate stroke, and that should make the 9-ball go into this pocket." If it were truly that high percentage of a shot, he wouldn't have had to use the video clip of him missing the shot in the final cut. In my opinion, this is a trick/proposition/showboat shot with little value in an actual game of 9-ball.

Unless you can see/hear that it is a foul--I don't think anyone should be able to call "foul".

I wholeheartedly disagree. There are plenty of times when you can't physically see or hear the second hit, or some other form of foul occuring. Most of them deal with close hits and/or double contacts of the cue ball. Often times, by watching the resulting paths of the balls, it's fairly easy to determine whether a foul has occurred or not. In those cases, I think it's absolutely correct to call the foul.

The shot in question is likely not a foul, but I don't know if we really have enough visual evidence one way or another without watching the path of the cueball.

frankwhite
05-07-2009, 05:21 PM
I think this is the shot in The Hustler:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2IbBH2PXXH2TXgH3phus2dbBH1dbCd@

I'm pretty sure it's a foul.

pj
chgo

With out a doubt, it is a foul.............

TX Poolnut
05-07-2009, 05:33 PM
It's very hard to tell from the view of the camera.

Patrick Johnson
05-07-2009, 05:39 PM
spoons:
Often times, by watching the resulting paths of the balls, it's fairly easy to determine whether a foul has occurred or not. In those cases, I think it's absolutely correct to call the foul.

It's definitely correct. Tournament referees are taught to judge hits by the paths of the balls, referees' instructions for official rules describe how to do it, and most of the shots in Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett's "Pool Rules Quiz " video are judged that way (link here -> Pool rules quiz for referees and players, with Bob Jewett (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm)).

Knowing how to call fouls this way also helps you learn to avoid those tricky fouls.

A word to the wise though: even though calling fouls this way is correct, correct may have a slightly different meaning to the guys at the Brew 'n Cue. In fact it might have a different meaning to each of them.

pj
chgo

td873
05-07-2009, 06:06 PM
Isn't this a foul where you hit the cue ball twice?
1) it is a foul to hit the cue ball twice.
2) this shot does not hit the cue ball twice.
There is no foul. [Why do you think the cue ball was hit twice?]

If you shoot this with outside english it's very difficult to even double hit the cue ball. In fact, aiming far enough away, you can completely miss hitting the object ball.

-td

dave sutton
05-07-2009, 08:22 PM
well said pj. thats how a foul should be judged. by the path the balls take. the balls dont lie...

spoons
05-08-2009, 06:33 AM
1) it is a foul to hit the cue ball twice.
2) this shot does not hit the cue ball twice.
There is no foul. [Why do you think the cue ball was hit twice?]

If you shoot this with outside english it's very difficult to even double hit the cue ball. In fact, aiming far enough away, you can completely miss hitting the object ball.

-td

I think it would be easier to avoid a double hit/illegal contact by using inside (in this case, left) english. In fact, it might be nearly impossible to avoid a bad hit using outside (right) english on this shot. Is that what you meant?

Tennesseejoe
05-08-2009, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennesseejoe
Unless you can see/hear that it is a foul--I don't think anyone should be able to call "foul".




First things' first.

I wholeheartedly disagree. There are plenty of times when you can't physically see or hear the second hit, or some other form of foul occuring. Most of them deal with close hits and/or double contacts of the cue ball. Often times, by watching the resulting paths of the balls, it's fairly easy to determine whether a foul has occurred or not. In those cases, I think it's absolutely correct to call the foul.

The shot in question is likely not a foul, but I don't know if we really have enough visual evidence one way or another without watching the path of the cueball.


I think we really agree. If you can't see the double hit, the paths of the balls, etc. indicating a foul---then you shouldn't call a foul. Or did I miss something?

cuetable
05-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Thanks for all your great ideas.

After thinking about this for a few days, I realize why I got the foul shot idea from. And a lot of this came from my own assumption.

1, The cue ball and the object ball are lined up to the first diamond
2, The balls are froze to each other and the cue ball is frozen to the rail (Note: the video never shows this; this comes out of my initial impression)
3, In order for the object ball to go into the pocket, it has to be hit at a different contact point
4, As the cue ball gets compressed into the cushion, there will be a tiny gap between balls
5, As the cue ball is bounced back from the cushion to hit a different contact point on the object ball.
6, The cue tip remains in touch with the cue ball between the time the cue ball leaves the initial position to the time it hits a new contact point.


Since the initial contact does not count, the cue ball hit the object ball only once. So this should be a legal hit! :)


I don't mean to discredit the video or to disrespect for Joe in any way. As a matter of fact, I envy Joe for making a great effort in delivering great online billiard instructional videos. I wish there are more people who'd share ideas to help new pool players.

I have watched most of his videos and added them to the tip section (http://talk.cuetable.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82) of pool video screening room (http://talk.cuetable.com/forumdisplay.php?f=56). At a later time, I will try to make a catalog listings for all the great youtube pool videos, including videos from Joe Nichols, Dr Dave, Mike Page, Tom Rossman, Buddy Hall, Marcus (forcefollow) and others. To help the sport effectively we should try to reach out more..

kingwang
05-08-2009, 06:06 PM
To anybody reading this, I highly suggest checking out Byrne's Complete Book of Pool Shots : 350 Moves Every Player Should Know . It shows a ton of shots where you have to shoot into the rail w/o fouling.

Patrick Johnson
05-08-2009, 07:23 PM
Thanks for all your great ideas.

After thinking about this for a few days, I realize why I got the foul shot idea from. And a lot of this came from my own assumption.

1, The cue ball and the object ball are lined up to the first diamond
2, The balls are froze to each other and the cue ball is frozen to the rail (Note: the video never shows this; this comes out of my initial impression)
3, In order for the object ball to go into the pocket, it has to be hit at a different contact point
4, As the cue ball gets compressed into the cushion, there will be a tiny gap between balls
5, As the cue ball is bounced back from the cushion to hit a different contact point on the object ball.
6, The cue tip remains in touch with the cue ball between the time the cue ball leaves the initial position to the time it hits a new contact point.

It's a foul for the cue tip to be touching the CB when the CB contacts an OB (except while they're initially frozen). But I don't think that happens on this shot.

Since the initial contact does not count, the cue ball hit the object ball only once. So this should be a legal hit! :)

The cue ball can hit an object ball any number of times - that's not a foul.

pj
chgo

philw
05-08-2009, 08:35 PM
Didn't you guys see this shot in the movie "The Hustler"? This was the shot they beat the bartender with at the start of the movie.
You're mistaken that wasn't the shot in the "Hustler." The shot Eddie Felson shot was a bank shot where the balls were frozen to each other.

spoons
05-08-2009, 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennesseejoe
Unless you can see/hear that it is a foul--I don't think anyone should be able to call "foul".







I think we really agree. If you can't see the double hit, the paths of the balls, etc. indicating a foul---then you shouldn't call a foul. Or did I miss something?

It sounds like we do agree, and it's just a case of message board interpretation gone slightly awry. Glad to be on your side :)

asbani
05-08-2009, 10:52 PM
I saw the video, and I thought that he didn't hit the cueball twice, he kind of shot it legally and then from there the Cueball actually in a very fast split second went and hit the object ball serveral times, It was really fast. but with physics that what really happened, a normal humanoid eye cannot see this, its very very quick. Then after the contact from the CB + OB serveral times, it went off to the pocket & and CB went really fast, but he not hit the CB twice with his cue, Therefore it's not a foul.

Patrick Johnson
05-09-2009, 10:21 AM
the Cueball actually in a very fast split second went and hit the object ball serveral times

This is impossible. How did the OB hang around after being hit once to be hit again?

pj
chgo

nick serdula
05-09-2009, 10:34 AM
There is a push into the rail. That is the first foul. The rail depresses and the balls are no longer frozen. The cue slides over on the cue's tip then comes off the rail.
There can also be a bouble hit caused by the rail's collapse. This would be the cue hitting the cueball as it releases from the push.
Definate foul.

Nick :)

Patrick Johnson
05-09-2009, 10:47 AM
There is a push into the rail. That is the first foul.

So you're saying it's impossible to hit a cue ball into the rail without pushing?

The rail depresses and the balls are no longer frozen. The cue slides over on the cue's tip

What's the evidence of this?

There can also be a bouble hit caused by the rail's collapse. This would be the cue hitting the cueball as it releases from the push.

I guess you mean "as it rebounds from the rail". This could happen, but only at steeper angles. How do you know this angle is too steep?

Definate foul.

Nope, not definite. Not even likely in my opinion, judging by the angle of the hit into the rail.

pj
chgo

nick serdula
05-09-2009, 10:20 PM
Just see exactly what you can get away with. You may be fore warned shafts may split and ferrels crack. You also may just seperate the rail rubber. The object ball hides alot.
Can you can shoot that rock almost straight into with a clean hit when it is froze against the rail?
Don't break anything important!

Nick :)