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View Full Version : What "plain janes" of today are destined to be the "vault queens" of tomorrow?


txcuemaster
05-10-2009, 06:07 AM
In a thread in the "Ask a Cue Maker" section about "player cues" and "collecter cues", Dave Sutton posted this:
if you went back in time to some of the owners of gus' cues and said "that cue will be 20k$ in 20 years" do you think they would play with them. bet most wouldnt :thumbup:

So I thought that would be a good topic for another thread:

What cues are we playing with NOW, that we consider "players cues", or "plain janes", that we would not be playing with "if we only knew..."???

Pushout
05-10-2009, 08:11 AM
Just my opinion, everybody has one;) Cues are made to be played with. I doubt I'll ever own a cue that I would just put away and not play with it. That is one reason Southwest cues are and will be, out of the financial reach of many, if not most, people.
I have one the first twelve cues that Dan Dishaw made in 1993 and play with it almost daily. I would do the same with a Southwest {I had two}, Searing, Barry Szamboti, Hercek, etc.

PegLeg
05-10-2009, 09:51 AM
My Dale Perry eBay cue. It is one of a kind and will be worth a ton of money in the future. :rotflmao1:

J$Cincy
05-10-2009, 09:54 AM
any Dennis Searing cue... but they play so good it is hard to put them down. mine looks like it has been through a war.

txcuemaster
05-10-2009, 10:41 AM
any Dennis Searing cue... but they play so good it is hard to put them down. mine looks like it has been through a war.

OK, maybe we should add "Explain WHY you think this or that particular maker's cues will be so honored in the future?"

What are the mystical and/or mythical qualities that make Balabushkas and Szambotis so sought after today? And what current cues might inherit these or similar qualities in 10, 20, 30 years?

Folks talk about the "great hit" of the Southwests, the great craftsmanship of Tads and Ginas, but what, for instance, will make one of today's Dennis Searing "player" cues into tomorrow's "collector classic" worth 10 or 20 or 30 times its price today?

Or is there even anything being built today that will ever approach the level of fame and collectability of these other cues?

Ken_4fun
05-10-2009, 11:18 AM
My opinion, and for most means nothing but I will share.

The time of buying "Gus or George" cue that for $100 and getting $25K is gone. Similiar to buying a 69 Camaro or Superbird. That window is closed and never coming back.... THERE ISNT ANOTHER WINDOW LIKE THAT AND WILL NEVER BE ONE.... There wasnt alot of cuemakers at that time like there is now. There are tons of cuemakers, tons, hell almost every town in America has a freaking cuemaker of some sort. Get over it.

Now, IMO, there are a few that are going to hold their values, or possibly increase slightly.

Hailey and Showman are two that come to mind and I have heard Mobly might be another.

Searing I wouldnt even put in that group, along with Tony at BB, their cues are so premium priced I cant imagine buying one and even doubling its value. I didnt include Barry as he isnt even accepting orders.

As far as Southwest, I really think that it is perfect example of people wanting what they cannot have. 10 year wait? There are tons of just as good or better playing cues out there for less money. But face it, Southwest is a freaking factory making tons of cues basically of one design. They are good at it, but everyone gets better by making the same cue over and over. IMO, look for a cuemaker making less than 20 per year and maybe closer to 10.

IMO, again just mine, the best thing to look at is quality.

Ken

pwd72s
05-10-2009, 11:52 AM
This is an impossible call...but a good discussion point. There are many cuemakers out there today whose work would qualify. But the collectables market is a fickle one, and really impossible to predict. My advice is to have an eye for quality, then pick the top of the line model. Sure seems to work that way with cars. For example, a 1957 Corvette is desirable. Oh, but an all original fuel injected '57 Corvette is VERY special.

PhilosopherKing
05-11-2009, 09:12 PM
In a thread in the "Ask a Cue Maker" section about "player cues" and "collecter cues", Dave Sutton posted this:


So I thought that would be a good topic for another thread:

What cues are we playing with NOW, that we consider "players cues", or "plain janes", that we would not be playing with "if we only knew..."???

Gracio. Zinzola.

PhilosopherKing
05-11-2009, 09:18 PM
My opinion, and for most means nothing but I will share.

The time of buying "Gus or George" cue that for $100 and getting $25K is gone. Similiar to buying a 69 Camaro or Superbird. That window is closed and never coming back.... THERE ISNT ANOTHER WINDOW LIKE THAT AND WILL NEVER BE ONE.... There wasnt alot of cuemakers at that time like there is now. There are tons of cuemakers, tons, hell almost every town in America has a freaking cuemaker of some sort. Get over it.

Now, IMO, there are a few that are going to hold their values, or possibly increase slightly.

Hailey and Showman are two that come to mind and I have heard Mobly might be another.

Searing I wouldnt even put in that group, along with Tony at BB, their cues are so premium priced I cant imagine buying one and even doubling its value. I didnt include Barry as he isnt even accepting orders.

As far as Southwest, I really think that it is perfect example of people wanting what they cannot have. 10 year wait? There are tons of just as good or better playing cues out there for less money. But face it, Southwest is a freaking factory making tons of cues basically of one design. They are good at it, but everyone gets better by making the same cue over and over. IMO, look for a cuemaker making less than 20 per year and maybe closer to 10.

IMO, again just mine, the best thing to look at is quality.

Ken
Anybody who directly learns from or apprentices with one of the makers mentioned above.

Gerald
05-12-2009, 12:06 AM
I don't think that I saw one post that referred to a "Plain Jane". One guy who makes a gorgeous "Plain Jane" is Ed Prewitt. No points-only rings made of Pau. He gets around 2 grand for his "Plain Janes". Zylr cues also command around a grand without points or inlays. Two cuemakers with totally different construction methods. JoeyInCali apprenticed under Kerry and makes a great hitting cue with stunning woods. I think that I saw "Plain Janes" made by Edwin Reyes that featured exotic woods. As I recall they would stop you in your tracks. To me a "Plain Jane" is a players cue with rings only and no points or inlays. I acknowledge that I have read here of different interpretations and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm sure that all of the cuemakers mention in this thread have made great "Plain Janes." Let's see some pics.

memikey
05-12-2009, 01:53 AM
Any cue which has been delivered by Eddie Wheat on time, in budget and within 1 inch of being the ordered length will be a major collectible with considerable novelty value. If accompanied by original signed and dated wheatbucks in compensation for length discrepancy the value will multiply and it should be insured by the owner right now :)

dave sutton
05-12-2009, 05:24 AM
hey....... lol. glad to see someone actually liked on of my posts.

ken said it right. those days are gone. if your any good if a few years your cues will be inthe 4 figure range.

i dont think any cues will hit that again. unless steve tikkler owns them. in other words they will have to be among the makers top work ivory handles silver gold gems ect...

i like scott g. and steve klein but its hard to say bc none of us have the shop that the top guys like erine do. maybe in 10 15 20 years of aquiring equiptment

i for one am very "hampered" by a limited bankroll. you kn ow what tho. i work with what i got. mainly i do things right and take my time. every $$$ i make for cues goes right back into the shop. i keep my bill/work money and my cue money sep

Icon of Sin
05-12-2009, 05:28 AM
Scruggs...

BlowFish
05-12-2009, 05:37 AM
I buy a cue that I like with a cuemaker that is approachable and easy to deal with. I never dreamt or think the those cues will be Vault Queens in the future. I buy what my budget allows.

Pushout
05-12-2009, 06:50 AM
As far as Southwest, I really think that it is perfect example of people wanting what they cannot have. 10 year wait? There are tons of just as good or better playing cues out there for less money. But face it, Southwest is a freaking factory making tons of cues basically of one design. They are good at it, but everyone gets better by making the same cue over and over.
Ken

Everything in your post I agree with except for this. From my conversations with Laurie Franklin I wouldn't call them a "factory", you make it sound like they are making production cues. And they don't make "tons of cues", which is one reason for the wait time. I would guess they make less than a lot of other cue makers, though the numbers escape me at the moment. That's how everybody gets better, by making their basic design over and over.
Again, I liked your post, with this exception.

Ken_4fun
05-12-2009, 07:01 AM
Everything in your post I agree with except for this. From my conversations with Laurie Franklin I wouldn't call them a "factory", you make it sound like they are making production cues. And they don't make "tons of cues", which is one reason for the wait time. I would guess they make less than a lot of other cue makers, though the numbers escape me at the moment. That's how everybody gets better, by making their basic design over and over.
Again, I liked your post, with this exception.



Southwest makes 250-300 (according to the internet and I suspect more if you include pacifiers etc.) a year. That my friend is ALOT of cues, that is over 1 per day. Compare that to cuemakers who make 10 per YEAR......

To me that is a production cue. If you think it is a custom, have her add a few inlays for you.

I think the wait is on purpose. Remember Studio 54 in New York? Their gimmick was that sometimes celebriaties that the didnt allow in, or others, the big deal was getting in. If the demand is 10 years, are you telling me that they couldnt bring in a couple more cuemakers or apprencies the expidite the timing?

IMO Laurie is better than almost all cuemakers of keeping demand high and production at a level where the demand is always higher than the supply.

Ken

CocoboloCowboy
05-12-2009, 07:05 AM
Ed Prewitts Plan Janes are not plain, but have lovely ring work.

crawfish
05-12-2009, 07:21 AM
The original white Cuetech. No frills. No BS. Just a player. Just a player.

AtLarge
05-12-2009, 12:21 PM
Southwest makes 250-300 (according to the internet and I suspect more if you include pacifiers etc.) a year. That my friend is ALOT of cues
Ken

Ken, I think you are wrong about the quantity of South West cues made in recent years. I think it is considerably fewer than 250-300. What evidence of that do I have?

1. I took delivery of a new SW in late August of 2006, which was about two-thirds of the way through the year. The serial number was below 350. (They start at 300 or 301 each year.) I acknowledge that SW may have made an unusually low number of cues in 2006.

2. IndyQ buys and sells a lot of SW cues. His web site shows a lot of the cues he has sold in the past. The highest numbered cue he shows for any year this decade is numbered 445-03, which means that it was the 146th cue made that year (if they start at 300). For many other years, none of the serial numbers are even as high as 400.

3. I have never seen a SW cue numbered in the 500's or higher this decade.

One way to answer this question, of course, is to ask Laurie. I have not done that for this post.

But I openly ask -- has anyone reading this post seen a SW cue made this decade that is numbered 500 or higher?

Ant812
05-12-2009, 12:43 PM
i would agree that there arent as many sw's made per year as what everyone believes. i also believe the 2nd market prices on them will never decrease, only increase. i am pretty confident there cues being made today that will increase in value. i doubt it will be increases like ones in the past, but an increase nontheless. unfortunatley we dont know what they will be. just like we didnt know all of those old cars would be worth a ton. i own a salvage yard that is a family bussiness. my pop crushed hundreds if not thousands of those priceless cars. :eek::eek::eek:

Ken_4fun
05-12-2009, 02:26 PM
i would agree that there arent as many sw's made per year as what everyone believes. i also believe the 2nd market prices on them will never decrease, only increase. i am pretty confident there cues being made today that will increase in value. i doubt it will be increases like ones in the past, but an increase nontheless. unfortunatley we dont know what they will be. just like we didnt know all of those old cars would be worth a ton. i own a salvage yard that is a family bussiness. my pop crushed hundreds if not thousands of those priceless cars. :eek::eek::eek:

Wow never thought about all those cars....better not to think about it.

Ken

Pushout
05-12-2009, 04:33 PM
Southwest makes 250-300 (according to the internet and I suspect more if you include pacifiers etc.) a year. That my friend is ALOT of cues, that is over 1 per day. Compare that to cuemakers who make 10 per YEAR......

Ken

Ok, I'll bite. What cue maker makes 10 cues a year?? I'd really like to know. I've never heard of a full time guy who makes that few cues in a year.

Pushout
05-12-2009, 04:43 PM
Southwest makes 250-300 (according to the internet and I suspect more if you include pacifiers etc.) a year. That my friend is ALOT of cues, that is over 1 per day.

Ken

Last I knew, there were 365 days in a year. According to the Blue Book, they make 250 a year. And I don't think they make many pacifiers. With the demand, I don't think that's a lot of cues. You seen to be a bit ornery about this??

guycrunch
05-12-2009, 04:57 PM
Ok, I'll bite. What cue maker makes 10 cues a year?? I'd really like to know. I've never heard of a full time guy who makes that few cues in a year.

searing, szamboti, and haley come to mind right away.

guy

SSach
05-12-2009, 05:14 PM
What cues are we playing with NOW, that we consider "players cues", or "plain janes", that we would not be playing with "if we only knew.

Don't hate me for my opinions... that is all they are :)

When I think about future collectable cues that are currently know as "players" I consider any cue that a majority of the cue enthusist/pools players believe are made superior to the others. If I am buying it for sole collectablilty I would consider popular playablity and production output. I mean Very limited production and total output as a cuemaker from beginnig to end.

I consider Art Cantando amongst the many other names that will be mentioned as a highly sought after now and highly collectable cues of the future. Never heard one bad thing about him or his cues. Plus he got some good pointers from a great guy.

Ken_4fun
05-12-2009, 05:40 PM
Ok, I'll bite. What cue maker makes 10 cues a year?? I'd really like to know. I've never heard of a full time guy who makes that few cues in a year.

There are several that make around 10 per year. I know of one top cuemaker that only made 1 cue for a top collector,,,,,;)

If you want a list let me know and I will share.

Ken

Ken_4fun
05-12-2009, 05:49 PM
Last I knew, there were 365 days in a year. According to the Blue Book, they make 250 a year. And I don't think they make many pacifiers. With the demand, I don't think that's a lot of cues. You seen to be a bit ornery about this??

Yes, (you are really cracking me up) but assuming they dont work weekends, only M-F and lets be generous and give them a couple weeks off on vacation, unless you are a harda$$ and make them work all holidays, weekends and no vacations!

5 days in a week,,,,50 weeks (52-2 vacation) makes 250. That makes 250 per year or about 1 per day.

I am just trying to state the facts, not being ornery at all. I do giggle when people say rare, or other. SW cues makes 10 times the number of cues some full time cuemakers make.

Hell guys, I have a SW. I really like the cue, but there are ALOT of SW cues. Take Showman, Hailey and a few others and they havent made the number of cues in their entire careers combined that SW has made in one year.

LOL

Ken

tikkler
05-12-2009, 07:34 PM
Ok, I'll bite. What cue maker makes 10 cues a year?? I'd really like to know. I've never heard of a full time guy who makes that few cues in a year.




BLACK BOAR......DENNIS SEARING
Steve

Impact Blue
05-12-2009, 07:40 PM
There are several that make around 10 per year. I know of one top cuemaker that only made 1 cue for a top collector,,,,,;)

If you want a list let me know and I will share.

Ken

Where's Tad Kohara on this list?

(man, I'm on a tad binge lately!)

sydbarret
05-12-2009, 07:55 PM
Eddie Wheat?

Ken_4fun
05-12-2009, 08:08 PM
Where's Tad Kohara on this list?

(man, I'm on a tad binge lately!)



I think the birdseye cue or zebrawood is easily the most common, the others are less and less seen. The hoppe one like I have is pretty common too, IMO the second most seen Tad, and I wouldnt consider it rare either.

Most of the others I dont see often.

Ken

AtLarge
05-12-2009, 08:24 PM
Ken -- please see post #19 in this thread. Any comments? Have you ever seen or heard of a SW cue made this decade with a number higher than 500? How about higher than 450?

Ken_4fun
05-12-2009, 08:37 PM
Ken -- please see post #19 in this thread. Any comments? Have you ever seen or heard of a SW cue made this decade with a number higher than 500? How about higher than 450?

Seen one? Hell, I own one with a higher number! :thumbup:

Pin Number on mine is 496 94

Attached is pics of cue, if you want pics of pin, thats a little tougher but I will try.

Ken

AtLarge
05-12-2009, 09:24 PM
Seen one? Hell, I own one with a higher number! :thumbup:

Pin Number on mine is 496 94

Ken

Your cue was made in 1994. My question relates to SW cues made in this decade, i.e., the year 2000 or later. Have you ever seen or heard of a SW cue made in this decade with a serial number over 500? Over 450? What I'm trying to confirm is that their volume in recent years is nothing like 250-300 cues per year.

Pushout
05-13-2009, 06:53 AM
Yes, (you are really cracking me up)
LOL

Ken

Don't think you need me to crack you up:D I've never considered them rare, myself, it's just that the demand doesn't seem to let up over the years. Again, this is partly due to people buying them and "putting them away". I don't think the wait time is on purpose, it's just the way they cure their wood, I've been told.
As for Searing, Barry Szamboti, and others not making more than ten cues a year, wow! I really had no idea of this and had not heard it before.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-13-2009, 08:34 AM
The time of buying "Gus or George" cue that for $100 and getting $25K is gone. Similiar to buying a 69 Camaro or Superbird. That window is closed and never coming back.... THERE ISNT ANOTHER WINDOW LIKE THAT AND WILL NEVER BE ONE.... There wasnt alot of cuemakers at that time like there is now. There are tons of cuemakers, tons, hell almost every town in America has a freaking cuemaker of some sort. Get over it.



TAP Tap TAP

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-13-2009, 08:38 AM
your cue was made in 1994. My question relates to sw cues made in this decade, i.e., the year 2000 or later. Have you ever seen or heard of a sw cue made in this decade with a serial number over 500? Over 450? What i'm trying to confirm is that their volume in recent years is nothing like 250-300 cues per year.

I'm looking for pictures....... If my memeory serves me well,i had a 460 something from the 2000's that i brokered for a guy.

P.S. THEY CERTAINLY MAKE MORE CUES NOW THAN THEY DID IN 94.

Ken_4fun
05-13-2009, 08:42 AM
Your cue was made in 1994. My question relates to SW cues made in this decade, i.e., the year 2000 or later. Have you ever seen or heard of a SW cue made in this decade with a serial number over 500? Over 450? What I'm trying to confirm is that their volume in recent years is nothing like 250-300 cues per year.

Okay, okay, you got me. Southwest cues are very, very rare. They make very, very few of them. All of the documentation in blue books are a conspiracy to make everyone think that there are lots of them, but there really is just a rare few that ever make it out of LV. :confused:

In this last decade, fewer than 10 actually survived, making them the most sought after and rarest of all SW cues.....:rolleyes:

Oliver Stone has been called and filming will begin at 11:00.
:p

Do you really think that they make LESS cues now than they did in the JF era? Have you EVER been to SW cues shop? Do you have a CLUE how many people are working there?

UGH, I give.
Ken :deadhorse:

Ken_4fun
05-13-2009, 08:48 AM
i'm looking for pictures....... If my memeory serves me well,i had a 460 something from the 2000's that i brokered for a guy.

Marcus, I think I had one that was 367-07 and I got it in either Feb, or March of that year, I think, and yes I have pictures of that one too.

It was a pacifier cue, so I dont know how that figures into the count either.

Ken

AtLarge
05-13-2009, 10:22 AM
P.S. THEY CERTAINLY MAKE MORE CUES NOW THAN THEY DID IN 94.

I don't think so. I know I've seen high-numbered (500+) cues from the early to mid 1990's, but not recently. But I could certainly be wrong.

AtLarge
05-13-2009, 10:32 AM
Do you really think that they make LESS cues now than they did in the JF era?
Yes

Have you EVER been to SW cues shop?
Yes

Do you have a CLUE how many people are working there?
Yes

UGH, I give.
Ken :deadhorse:

Ken, no reason to get testy. My information apparently differs from yours. I'm just trying to find out whether I'm correct. Do we have a confirmed sighting of a SW cue made in the 2000's with a serial number higher than 500? 450?

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-13-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't think so. I know I've seen high-numbered (500+) cues from the early to mid 1990's, but not recently. But I could certainly be wrong.


I JUST SENT AN E-MAIL TO Laurie ASKING OUR QUESTIONS........


I HAD ASKED: HOW MANY CUES IS THE SW SHOP MAKING PER YEAR, AND HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO THE 93,94,95 ERA?

HER REPLY: "In answer to your other questions: not enough and less than in the good old days."

NOT SURE WHY THE NUMBERS OF CUES MADE IS KEPT SO SECRETIVE, BUT IT IS FROM ALOT OF CUEMAKERS.

AtLarge
05-13-2009, 06:40 PM
I JUST SENT AN E-MAIL TO Laurie ASKING OUR QUESTIONS........


I HAD ASKED: HOW MANY CUES IS THE SW SHOP MAKING PER YEAR, AND HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO THE 93,94,95 ERA?

HER REPLY: "In answer to your other questions: not enough and less than in the good old days."

NOT SURE WHY THE NUMBERS OF CUES MADE IS KEPT SO SECRETIVE, BUT IT IS FROM ALOT OF CUEMAKERS.

I read this as supporting my contention that 250-300 is way high for recent years. I'm not surprised she didn't give you actual numbers. Since their cues fall in a fairly narrow price band, disclosing the number they sell per year is tantamount to disclosing their gross income per year (exclusive of repairs and related work). That's not something that a lot of cue makers want to do.

I could also speculate on the reasons the numbers are down from "the good old days," but I'm going to skip that.

bobroberts
05-21-2009, 11:39 AM
I JUST SENT AN E-MAIL TO Laurie ASKING OUR QUESTIONS........


I HAD ASKED: HOW MANY CUES IS THE SW SHOP MAKING PER YEAR, AND HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO THE 93,94,95 ERA?

HER REPLY: "In answer to your other questions: not enough and less than in the good old days."

NOT SURE WHY THE NUMBERS OF CUES MADE IS KEPT SO SECRETIVE, BUT IT IS FROM ALOT OF CUEMAKERS.

As far as I am concerned they are mass production shop compared to Searing, Hercek, and quite a few others.