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axejunkie
05-17-2009, 05:21 PM
I was a neutral party to this in 8 ball playoffs today:

Player A pockets his last remaining stripe and scratches. Player B has 3 balls (solids) on the table. Player A apparently thought he scratched on the 8 (and thus losing the game). He proceeds to rake the 8 and Player B's balls to rack them. Of course several people notice this and bring it to Player A's attention.

Teams argue briefly and it's grudgingly decided loss of game for Player A. There were no league reps or refs (was still in-house round). What is the correct ruling? Ball in hand, loss of game, loss of match??? I couldn't find the rule in the pocket manual.

jensen_lover
05-17-2009, 05:24 PM
If I was refing I would have said loss of game also. Anytime you disturb a group of balls that is a loss of game in my book. His or her mistake and hopefully they will learn from it.

TXsouthpaw
05-17-2009, 05:39 PM
loss of game for being a moron.

If your not sure ask. at least before clearing the table.

ykndoit
05-17-2009, 05:48 PM
according to the rules(in my interpretation).... It is ball in hand for player b and player b places the balls back as close to where he thought they origionally were. Since he unintentionally tried to change the game, AND moved more than 1 ball, it is ball in hand.

chevybob20
05-17-2009, 05:51 PM
It SHOULD be loss of game plus a flogging, but sadly it's not. APA lists they only ways a game could be won in at the end. This is not one of them. Re-set the table and incomming player has ball in hand.

stumpie71
05-17-2009, 06:04 PM
Since it seems both teams agreed it was unintentional,it would not be loss of game. The players would reset the balls as close to their position as possible with player B having ball in hand from the scratch. However if this had been a tournament, it would've been a sportsmanship violation and could result in loss of game/match.

daphish1
05-17-2009, 06:38 PM
he intentionally moved the 8 ball so lose of game. He might not have known he wasn't on the 8 but moved it thinking he lost so conceded the game

DeepBanks
05-17-2009, 06:46 PM
Okay meatball . . . so now you just want me to go on and have it be my shot . . . just remember, I know where you live meatball.

the420trooper
05-17-2009, 07:38 PM
If the rule doesn't call for loss of game in this situation, it should...imo.

I've had an instance where I was playing one pocket, and I shot my 7th ball in. I thought I was out, so I started raking balls toward the rack area, when my opponent "reminded" me of the correct score. :(

There was no discussion, I knew I had lost the game, and I knew I deserved it. FWIW, that was the ONLY time that ever happened.

dave sutton
05-17-2009, 07:56 PM
i agree it should be loss of game. but not much makes sense in apa.

prob would be a re rack...

dr9ball
05-17-2009, 08:00 PM
It amazes me how often teams can't decide what to do in league play and often the rule book is neatly tucked away in their team packets. Reset the Balls to their orginal position, Ball in hand to the opposing player.

daphish1
05-17-2009, 08:05 PM
i agree it should be loss of game. but not much makes sense in apa.

prob would be a re rack...

nah, wouldn't be a rerack if anything it would be determined unsportsman like conduct which is a loss of game.

dave sutton
05-17-2009, 08:27 PM
and what happens when you cant agree on original position.

resetting multiple balls is the worst answer IMO

i had a somilar situation where i moved my ball. it was hanging directly in the side pocket. i bumped it into the middle and asked if he wanted to move it back. the guy said sure and and put the ball on the rail between the side pocket and the first diamond. obv not right. after the entire place went crazy and we called the ref guess what happened...

re rack

dave sutton
05-17-2009, 08:28 PM
nah, wouldn't be a rerack if anything it would be determined unsportsman like conduct which is a loss of game.

i agree 100%

DelaWho???
05-18-2009, 03:54 AM
Deliberately sweeping the remaining balls on the table to the rack end constitutes a loss of game. The game was conceded by the scratching players action regardless of his motivation. Resetting the rack is not right because the movement of the balls wasn't accidental and pushing them all down to the racking end of the table indicated you are giving up the game, the same as not making your opponent shoot the last ball in and racking is a concession of the game. Once you move the final balls you can't change your mind and move them back.

Player B wins the arguement, because the sweeping action is deemed to be giving up.


:)

mongoose-
05-18-2009, 04:08 AM
I don't think it is a loss of game but I haven't played the APA for some time. IF I remember correctly they just put the balls back... idiotic either way. Only in the APA.

kaznj
05-18-2009, 04:54 AM
If a player takes the 8 ball off the table I would consider the 8 out of turn. Loss of game.

Snapshot9
05-18-2009, 05:11 AM
for Unsportsmen like conduct, whether he intended to do it or not, he did it, and he intended to do it when he did it, no matter what ball he was looking at when he did it ... got it!

axejunkie
05-18-2009, 06:46 AM
I know there are some wacked rules in APA, but it sounds like the rules say it should be a ball in hand foul. I guess a good reason for this would be if a stumbling drunk knocked into a player, and that player moved several balls. Loss of game would seem harsh in such an instance.

Too add insult to injury, Player B in my scenario (a 3 needing 2 games to win) snapped the 8 on the break and won the match.

CreeDo
05-18-2009, 10:50 AM
There are a few situations that any given rule book won't cover because it just hasn't been thought up, this is one of them. In these situations, common sense and courtesy should be the rule.

A player who rakes the balls is conceding the game. Doesn't matter if he's conceding out of courtesy, mental glitch, spite, or accident. The game is over and he lost. If you can lose by unscrewing your cue to signal the end of the game you can certainly lose by raking the balls. Otherwise you could abuse it as a sharking technique or hoping to gain some advantage in the way the balls were replaced.

Does anyone think the apa REALLY wants players arguing for an hour on the replacement of SEVERAL different balls (especially when nobody bothered to memorize their positions)? They put in rules just to avoid this kind of argument, because even a single ball's position can lead to lengthy debate.

Even if the other team wants to be gentlemen and replace the balls to give the guy another chance, the game is completely altered. Little differences are huge when you're talking about the position of a ball... frozen to the rail vs. a quarter inch off... passes another ball vs. doesn't pass... Replacing any single ball incorrectly would screw up the way the game plays out.

I guess Player B's team could be nice and offer to have the entire game replayed. But my feeling is that if a player is so unfocused about the game, he deserves the loss. Another possibility nobody has mentioned: I've seen guys get so upset about a missed ball or a scratch that they rake 'em. Maybe he wasn't confused at all.

axejunkie
05-18-2009, 10:57 AM
There are a few situations that any given rule book won't cover because it just hasn't been thought up, this is one of them. In these situations, common sense and courtesy should be the rule.



Thanks, some good points you raise. I believe he was nervous more than anything and just had a brain fade. His opponent's balls were clustered on the rail and a runout would've been tricky for a strong player.

DelaWho???
05-18-2009, 11:15 AM
There are a few situations that any given rule book won't cover because it just hasn't been thought up, this is one of them. In these situations, common sense and courtesy should be the rule.

A player who rakes the balls is conceding the game. Doesn't matter if he's conceding out of courtesy, mental glitch, spite, or accident. The game is over and he lost. If you can lose by unscrewing your cue to signal the end of the game you can certainly lose by raking the balls. Otherwise you could abuse it as a sharking technique or hoping to gain some advantage in the way the balls were replaced.

Does anyone think the apa REALLY wants players arguing for an hour on the replacement of SEVERAL different balls (especially when nobody bothered to memorize their positions)? They put in rules just to avoid this kind of argument, because even a single ball's position can lead to lengthy debate.

Even if the other team wants to be gentlemen and replace the balls to give the guy another chance, the game is completely altered. Little differences are huge when you're talking about the position of a ball... frozen to the rail vs. a quarter inch off... passes another ball vs. doesn't pass... Replacing any single ball incorrectly would screw up the way the game plays out.

I guess Player B's team could be nice and offer to have the entire game replayed. But my feeling is that if a player is so unfocused about the game, he deserves the loss. Another possibility nobody has mentioned: I've seen guys get so upset about a missed ball or a scratch that they rake 'em. Maybe he wasn't confused at all.

Bingo, then the captain says something and all of a sudden it's I didn't mean too...........:eek:




:)

MitchAlsup
05-18-2009, 12:49 PM
The sweeping of balls into the rack constitutes Unsportsmanlike conduct (minimum), so we have at least 2 fouls on the play.

In my heart* this would be a loss of game. (*) Rules be darned.

ronhudson
05-18-2009, 01:02 PM
Here's an interesting twist for the proponents of the "ball in hand foul" ruling.

From the APA rules:

EXCEPTION: If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact with the
cue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced.

So, if the balls are raked up into a group and the cue ball is among the pack, then it's ball in hand but the balls have to stay in the group without being replaced. If the cue ball is in the middle of the pack, then it will have to be extracted without touching another ball or, since the cue ball is "live at all times", it would then be another ball in hand foul.

Big Perm
05-18-2009, 01:16 PM
I was a neutral party to this in 8 ball playoffs today:

Player A pockets his last remaining stripe and scratches. Player B has 3 balls (solids) on the table. Player A apparently thought he scratched on the 8 (and thus losing the game). He proceeds to rake the 8 and Player B's balls to rack them. Of course several people notice this and bring it to Player A's attention.

Teams argue briefly and it's grudgingly decided loss of game for Player A. There were no league reps or refs (was still in-house round). What is the correct ruling? Ball in hand, loss of game, loss of match??? I couldn't find the rule in the pocket manual.

This makes zero sense to me:

Player A pockets last remaining strip and scratches....

Player B has three solids on the table....

Player A, who just shot and knows he scratched on a ball that was not the 8, decides to rake the balls....

This is completely crazy and makes zero sense...

Player A has altzeimers (sp?) or is some major idiot not realizing he scratched on his own shot that was not the 8....and then rakes the balls anyway....

Now, if you mean Player B raked the balls because he wasn't paying attention, then he loses because he is the idiot....it's impossible to take a few balls and place them where they were....I might be understanding if it was just more than one ball, but realistically even if you put them back, B fouled, which would give A ball in hand on the 8 :D

s'portplayer
05-18-2009, 01:30 PM
Here's an interesting twist for the proponents of the "ball in hand foul" ruling.

From the APA rules:

EXCEPTION: If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact with the
cue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced.

So, if the balls are raked up into a group and the cue ball is among the pack, then it's ball in hand but the balls have to stay in the group without being replaced. If the cue ball is in the middle of the pack, then it will have to be extracted without touching another ball or, since the cue ball is "live at all times", it would then be another ball in hand foul.

The key word in the rule is "accidentally", which is more than understandable.

The player in this situation intentionally raked the balls. Anytime a player intentionally moves object balls it is loss of game.

As many other have mentiones, the intentional raking would also fall under the unsportsmanlike category.

TheWhiteEwok
05-18-2009, 01:57 PM
I was a neutral party to this in 8 ball playoffs today:

Player A pockets his last remaining stripe and scratches. Player B has 3 balls (solids) on the table. Player A apparently thought he scratched on the 8 (and thus losing the game). He proceeds to rake the 8 and Player B's balls to rack them. Of course several people notice this and bring it to Player A's attention.

Teams argue briefly and it's grudgingly decided loss of game for Player A. There were no league reps or refs (was still in-house round). What is the correct ruling? Ball in hand, loss of game, loss of match??? I couldn't find the rule in the pocket manual.


Here is where APA is interesting.

The exact national ruling would be the following:

Because the cue ball was NOT interfered with, i.e. it was already in the pocket - but the OTHER balls were moved, Player B is responsible for putting the balls back into the "correct" position and then is awarded a ball in hand.

There is NO loss of game from this "infraction".

axejunkie
05-18-2009, 02:25 PM
This makes zero sense to me:



It didn't make any sense to me either, but we've all had our moments of madness at times. I seem to recall scoring in the wrong basket in 6th grade basketball :D

axejunkie
05-18-2009, 02:26 PM
Here is where APA is interesting.

The exact national ruling would be the following:

Because the cue ball was NOT interfered with, i.e. it was already in the pocket - but the OTHER balls were moved, Player B is responsible for putting the balls back into the "correct" position and then is awarded a ball in hand.

There is NO loss of game from this "infraction".

Interesting, I can only say we need the Ed Hochuli of APA to step forth with a long-winded explanation. I'm just grateful it wasn't my team involved.

DeepBanks
05-18-2009, 04:20 PM
Interesting, I can only say we need the Ed Hochuli of APA to step forth with a long-winded explanation. I'm just grateful it wasn't my team involved.

This is why I don't play APA . . . if he swept 'em on the table, then it should be vaya-con-dios. Game over Amigo. You can have people argue endlessly about where the balls WERE . . . etc. etc.

What I saw when I played APA was that they should adopt more CASH rules. If you were betting on that game, and the dickhead swept the table, the rule would GAME OVER - YOU LOSE COWBOY. Who's up next?

Sorry . . . not to rant, but APA rules are typically unclear or rife for the league operator to show off their "expertise". Ooooooops!

TheNewSharkster
05-18-2009, 05:02 PM
If someone concedes a game it cannot be taken back. The placement of balls back to the original position was put in the rule book so there wouldn't be touch fouls. It was never meant to cover people raking the balls and then realizing they hadn't lost the game. That is a loss by unsportsman like conduct.

Here is another scenario I have seen come up. Both players are on the 8ball. Player 1 misses and leaves it in front of the pocket. Rather than having player B shoot he pushes it in with his stick. He concedes the game and it is a loss. He can't choose to play it out after this happens.

ronhudson
05-18-2009, 09:46 PM
The key word in the rule is "accidentally", which is more than understandable.

The player in this situation intentionally raked the balls. Anytime a player intentionally moves object balls it is loss of game.

As many other have mentiones, the intentional raking would also fall under the unsportsmanlike category.

You have either missed or ignored my point. I was making no comment about whether it's a loss or a foul. The point I was making was in the second paragraph -- how the rules treat the situation if raking the balls into a pack is ruled a foul with the resulting "no balls would be replaced":

So, if the balls are raked up into a group and the cue ball is among the pack, then it's ball in hand but the balls have to stay in the group without being replaced. If the cue ball is in the middle of the pack, then it will have to be extracted without touching another ball or, since the cue ball is "live at all times", it would then be another ball in hand foul.

btoneill
05-19-2009, 07:33 AM
Our local APA league office has bylaws which clarifies this case....

"If a player grabs the rack before the 8 Ball or 9 Ball is made, that is a loss of that particular game. If the player not shooting starts taking balls out of the pocket before the 8 or 9 is made it is a loss of that particular game."

Brian

homepc
05-19-2009, 08:00 AM
Is it possible that player A was so disgusted with himself for missing, that he really was conceding the game, but his fellow teammates talked him out of it? So, he tried to act as though it was a mistake? I think its a concede and thus loss of game. Can you actually concede in APA?

Andrew Manning
05-19-2009, 10:29 AM
Is it possible that player A was so disgusted with himself for missing, that he really was conceding the game, but his fellow teammates talked him out of it? So, he tried to act as though it was a mistake? I think its a concede and thus loss of game. Can you actually concede in APA?

I don't have them in front of me, but I don't believe APA rules have any mention of "conceding". In my opinion, raking the balls after a miss should always be considered a concession, even if it was a mistake. Kind of like saying "that's good", or unscrewing your cue. Even if you change your mind, maybe because there's something you didn't see before, the concession stands. I think the APA rules should be amended with what is or is not considered a concession of game (which should not necessarily be considered the same as unsportsmanlike conduct with a loss of game penalty).

-Andrew

spoons
05-19-2009, 10:31 AM
Can you actually concede in APA?

Yes. You are allowed to concede a game in the APA. I think most people would consider this a concession of the game, regardless of whether it was an innocent mistake or not. Come playoffs time, though, rulebooks and loopholes tend to make more appearances.

I'm generally a fan of letting the play decide the outcome instead of the rules, but I'm always on the lookout for folks who try to manipulate the situation...

There's a player here in Chicago who makes it his business to know just about every letter of the APA rulebook, and he loves situations like this. I once watched him examine two balls that were frozen in such a way that he just barely couldn't make his ball. He pretended to shield the light over the balls and "accidentally" bumped them. He had his opponent put them back where his opponent thought they were, and like he was hoping, his opponent ended up setting up a dead carrom for him.


Which brings me to another point. If the decision is made to put the balls back, the non-offending player puts the balls back where they believe they were before the interference. Period. There is no discussion, and no arguing. In theory, the non-offending player can put the balls directly in front of the pockets, but at that point they risk an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty of their own.

axejunkie
05-19-2009, 11:01 AM
Is it possible that player A was so disgusted with himself for missing, that he really was conceding the game, but his fellow teammates talked him out of it? So, he tried to act as though it was a mistake? I think its a concede and thus loss of game. Can you actually concede in APA?

I'm pretty sure he just had a brain fade. The look on his face was of confusion, not of frustration. It was the first game and he just overran position; he pocketed his ball in one corner and came off the short rail toward the opposite corner to get on the 8. He just misjudged the speed like we all do at some point.