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View Full Version : APA - What a Rip Off.


mongoose-
05-18-2009, 05:13 PM
I wanted to throw this payout scenario out here regarding the APA vs our local ACS league. I asked what the payout was for their division of 8 teams & the total prize fund to pay among 3 places was $1,000. The took in $4,800 in a 15 week session. We paid back $1,100 for 1st.. $700 for 2nd .. & $400 to 3rd with ONLY 4 teams. That is $3,800 gone from the APA division purse. Also keep in mind this LO runs the entire state & I would estimate has 250+ teams in several divisions. So the little 8 team division they have here is just a small slice of the pie. Now I am sure we will get the usual blah blah speel about how the APA is a business & such. There is of course nothing wrong with someone making a living. This however is going overboard... it is plain robbery to the players paying into this foolishness. It is hard for me to understand how nieve people can be. Do the math people the so called "free" trip to Vegas is NOT free.

1on1pooltournys
05-18-2009, 05:28 PM
I wanted to throw this payout scenario out here regarding the APA vs our local ACS league. I asked what the payout was for their division of 8 teams & the total prize fund to pay among 3 places was $1,000. The took in $4,800 in a 15 week session. We paid back $1,100 for 1st.. $700 for 2nd .. & $400 to 3rd with ONLY 4 teams. That is $3,800 gone from the APA division purse. Also keep in mind this LO runs the entire state & I would estimate has 250+ teams in several divisions. So the little 8 team division they have here is just a small slice of the pie. Now I am sure we will get the usual blah blah speel about how the APA is a business & such. There is of course nothing wrong with someone making a living. This however is going overboard... it is plain robbery to the players paying into this foolishness. It is hard for me to understand how nieve people can be. Do the math people the so called "free" trip to Vegas is NOT free.

The average APA player still has not figured this out. The APA stands for "Acquire Players Assets". That is why all the League operators are rich. It is the worst league, IMO.

CreeDo
05-18-2009, 05:34 PM
so, am I reading this right... out of 4800 bucks, the APA LO kept 3800 and only gave 1,000 back?

Sounds awful.

Is the pay structure up to the individual league operator, or does the entire APA all follow the same guideline?

In another league, my team recently got 2 dollars (yes, two) for placing 4th. We had more wins than anyone else so that stung a lot.

sixpack
05-18-2009, 05:41 PM
I wanted to throw this payout scenario out here regarding the APA vs our local ACS league. I asked what the payout was for their division of 8 teams & the total prize fund to pay among 3 places was $1,000. The took in $4,800 in a 15 week session. We paid back $1,100 for 1st.. $700 for 2nd .. & $400 to 3rd with ONLY 4 teams. That is $3,800 gone from the APA division purse. Also keep in mind this LO runs the entire state & I would estimate has 250+ teams in several divisions. So the little 8 team division they have here is just a small slice of the pie. Now I am sure we will get the usual blah blah speel about how the APA is a business & such. There is of course nothing wrong with someone making a living. This however is going overboard... it is plain robbery to the players paying into this foolishness. It is hard for me to understand how nieve people can be. Do the math people the so called "free" trip to Vegas is NOT free.

You have the biggest vote with your dollars. Don't support it if you don't agree with it. Don't join.

~rc

CocoboloCowboy
05-18-2009, 05:46 PM
I wanted to throw this payout scenario out here regarding the APA vs our local ACS league. I asked what the payout was for their division of 8 teams & the total prize fund to pay among 3 places was $1,000. The took in $4,800 in a 15 week session. We paid back $1,100 for 1st.. $700 for 2nd .. & $400 to 3rd with ONLY 4 teams. That is $3,800 gone from the APA division purse. Also keep in mind this LO runs the entire state & I would estimate has 250+ teams in several divisions. So the little 8 team division they have here is just a small slice of the pie. Now I am sure we will get the usual blah blah speel about how the APA is a business & such. There is of course nothing wrong with someone making a living. This however is going overboard... it is plain robbery to the players paying into this foolishness. It is hard for me to understand how nieve people can be. Do the math people the so called "free" trip to Vegas is NOT free.


What was the league operators answer about the 3.8K????:wink:

Fatboy
05-18-2009, 05:49 PM
There is no such thing as a "Free lunch" or "Trip to Vegas". But the promis of either sure sounds attractive.

The math here dosent make sence to me in the OP. $4800 collected, $3800 gone and there was $2200 in payouts, did I mis read something?

I dont like league pool, in anyform.

IA8baller
05-18-2009, 05:54 PM
Want a good league with great payouts? Use IN2POOL.COM http://www.in2pool.com/

That's what the ISPA http://ispa.in2pool.com/ is now using and league players couldn't be happier as far as I know. Of all the $$$ taken in there is some that goes to sanctioning, some to a local secratary/treasurer that enters every weeks info, some to cover the costs of using IN2POOL's website and scoring, etc. but I think the payouts at the end of the year are easily over 75% of what is taken in.

From what info I keep getting here on AZ, why anyone would be involved in APA is beyond me .......... (disclaimer:I have never participated in an APA league, I just know what I keep seeing here on AZ about it) ............ I suppose it's mainly due to tremendous marketing on their part and people not realizing that there are other options available out there.

APA=Aquiring Players Assets seems about right from what I can see though.

Check out some of the info on IN2POOL if you get time. It might be another option to explore for those unhappy with the APA.

trustyrusty
05-18-2009, 05:57 PM
I love these "I figured it out about...." threads. If your goal is $$DOLLARS$$ for playing pool; did you really expect to do it by playing in ANY league? Could they pay out more? Sure. But, they won't if they don't have to (and it seems that their participation hasn't suffered enough for them to offer more). It's like someone saying - "Man, I can't believe that casinos make money, they should pay out more!"

IA8baller
05-18-2009, 06:04 PM
I love these "I figured it out about...." threads. If your goal is $$DOLLARS$$ for playing pool; did you really expect to do it by playing in ANY league? Could they pay out more? Sure. But, they won't if they don't have to (and it seems that their participation hasn't suffered enough for them to offer more). It's like someone saying - "Man, I can't believe that casinos make money, they should pay out more!"

A most excellent point. :thumbup:

Busbee Cue
05-18-2009, 06:08 PM
I wanted to throw this payout scenario out here regarding the APA vs our local ACS league. I asked what the payout was for their division of 8 teams & the total prize fund to pay among 3 places was $1,000. The took in $4,800 in a 15 week session. We paid back $1,100 for 1st.. $700 for 2nd .. & $400 to 3rd with ONLY 4 teams. That is $3,800 gone from the APA division purse. Also keep in mind this LO runs the entire state & I would estimate has 250+ teams in several divisions. So the little 8 team division they have here is just a small slice of the pie. Now I am sure we will get the usual blah blah speel about how the APA is a business & such. There is of course nothing wrong with someone making a living. This however is going overboard... it is plain robbery to the players paying into this foolishness. It is hard for me to understand how nieve people can be. Do the math people the so called "free" trip to Vegas is NOT free.

They don't even grease you up before they give it to you. Try playing double jepardy (8-ball and 9-ball same night) twice a week, talk about bending over...OUCH.

TX Poolnut
05-18-2009, 06:18 PM
Acquire Player's Assets

:killingme::joyful::rotflmao::rotflmao1::smile-square:

Danny Kuykendal
05-18-2009, 06:24 PM
The APA is a for profit league. If the owners of the league don't make money, no league. I agree, if you don't like the payout don't play, but what pool players don't seem to understand is that someone has to make a profit, or no more leagues or tournaments. Are they supposed to do it for free?

I actually have an in house pool league in my room that gives all the money back, but it's run by a player who doesn't need the money and really enjoys the experience. But this is certainly the exception.

Dawgie
05-18-2009, 06:26 PM
If you don't enjoy playing in the APA Leagues - why play in the APA League? Don't try to tear an organization down just b/c you don't like it. Just stop league play.

Let me see now - what other items are a rip off? Hmmmm let me see now - oh yeah how about 40K for a nice car, your telephone bill with its inherent taxes, Fed Inc Tx, SS, restaurants, liquor, cig's, golf, gasoline, (tons of taxes), interest rates from you local FDIC insured bank, pot, Viagra, health care costs in general, pool cues, etc etc etc. I would guess you can come up with other things but this should be a start.

ugotactionTX
05-18-2009, 07:42 PM
We have 2 BCA divisions here and paid out almost 20k in prize money. One division has 10 teams the other has 8. The players pay 15 dollars each time they play with 1 dollar going to the league operator and 2$ for table time. We also paid 10$ for perfect scores, and 5$ dollars for B+R and R+R We also paid top A's, B's. C's and Women and most consecutive wins. The first place team in both divisions recieved almost 2k for "team" payout alone... not to mention all the individual money. When I hear complaints from my players about payout I just laugh...

dr9ball
05-18-2009, 08:09 PM
Want a good league with great payouts? Use IN2POOL.COM http://www.in2pool.com/
Snip...

I suppose it's mainly due to tremendous marketing on their part and people not realizing that there are other options available out there.

APA=Aquiring Players Assets seems about right from what I can see though.

Check out some of the info on IN2POOL if you get time. It might be another option to explore for those unhappy with the APA.

The sad thing is that in some areas, there are no other viable options. in the Northern Virginia area, there are two choices APA and TAP. No BCA leagues. There are some tournaments around that are good but the Tiger Tour folded up shop for this season after only one tournament. The APA Masters league (no handicap, race to 7) is my favorite League Format at least until someone starts a One Pocket League or weekly tournament with a low entry fee (which probably won't attract players) though many people won't drop $50+ on a weekly tournament.

Just my thoughts.

scarlettrout
05-18-2009, 08:44 PM
It dumbfounds me that anyone would have complained about your payouts John! And I can back that up... I was 60th out of 65 regular players and on the #4 team... my payout made me happy. :D Thank you very much!

Other leagues should look at how ya'll handled the season. :thumbup:

wait... where's the happy dance...

:happydance: :joyful:


We have 2 BCA divisions here and paid out almost 20k in prize money. One division has 10 teams the other has 8. The players pay 15 dollars each time they play with 1 dollar going to the league operator and 2$ for table time. We also paid 10$ for perfect scores, and 5$ dollars for B+R and R+R We also paid top A's, B's. C's and Women and most consecutive wins. The first place team in both divisions recieved almost 2k for "team" payout alone... not to mention all the individual money. When I hear complaints from my players about payout I just laugh...

jermski
05-19-2009, 01:16 AM
I don't know about how the APA or any other league that runs in your area but I know plenty of people who make use of the free tables (practice tables). With the people I see who play on those, I know most definitely it pays for itself. I know I get my moneys worth playing on the the free tables.

mongoose-
05-19-2009, 04:04 AM
so, am I reading this right... out of 4800 bucks, the APA LO kept 3800 and only gave 1,000 back?

Sounds awful.

Is the pay structure up to the individual league operator, or does the entire APA all follow the same guideline?

In another league, my team recently got 2 dollars (yes, two) for placing 4th. We had more wins than anyone else so that stung a lot.

That is exactly what they paid back Creedo. I don't know about the guidelines as I don't play the APA.. I just thought it was bit ridiculous.

mongoose-
05-19-2009, 04:09 AM
There is no such thing as a "Free lunch" or "Trip to Vegas". But the promis of either sure sounds attractive.

The math here dosent make sence to me in the OP. $4800 collected, $3800 gone and there was $2200 in payouts, did I mis read something?

I dont like league pool, in anyform.

Fatboy I could have worded that better. I mixed in our ACS payout vs the APA. The APA took in $4800 over a 15 week session. 8 teams at $8 a head. They paid back 1000. Yes $3,800 gone. Now IF this was the only division & some was taken for the vegas trip etc I could see it somewhat but it is not. The LO has over 250+ teams state wide & send 3 teams in 8ball & 2 in 9ball annually to Vegas. The $3800 was taken from the small 8 team division. Nice huh.

gunzby
05-19-2009, 04:35 AM
Our LO gives about 3x that amount for the Vegas trip.

ne14tennis
05-19-2009, 04:49 AM
These threads always make me laugh.

As one poster said, if you play league pool with the expectation of making a profit......you're in the wrong business. It's nice to get you're money back and a little more if you finish in the top but realisticly most players play league for other reasons.

My feelings on APA are well known. Haven't played APA in almost 5 years. When I did play I played 9 ball cuz i liked the challenge of having to get 72 balls to my opponents lesser number....period. I knew it was a ripoff and i accepted it.

The APA is a pyramid scheme. Where else do you get penalized for excelling in your sport. The higher the skill level you achieve the less you can play due to the cap on team skill level. Once your team gets too good they force you to break it up and form teams with lower players to compete thereby keeping a fresh supply of new money.

I suppose it has a purpose in the pool world. It introduces people who don't play well to the sport and they get to play people of like skill and can be competitive. Other than that.....beats me why people stay in the APA

SCCues
05-19-2009, 05:04 AM
I actually have an in house pool league in my room that gives all the money back, but it's run by a player who doesn't need the money and really enjoys the experience. But this is certainly the exception.

We have an in house league just like you described and all of the money comes back to the players. Our league is run buy the players and was started by a man who got fed up with paying the APA and not getting much in return. We have a waiting list of teams who want to get in our league!

James

o2bacs
05-19-2009, 05:18 AM
I've played at least 15 maybe 20 sessions of APA. I've played TAP, BCA, VNEA, and local leagues in Arizona, Illinois, and Colorado. I have a good feel for a variety of leagues out there and all I want to say is something that is easy to forget, to each his own.

Does the APA have an absolutely ridiculous payout? No doubt. Does the APA give more "Amateur" people out there a chance to enjoy a night out once a week and have some comradery with friends? Yes it does and in many peoples areas it is the only option. Not all people want to go pro. Have quite a few pros played in the APA? For a fact yes they have.

I went to Vegas in 05 for the APA Nationals. We had enough fun that it was worth our league dues to get there. The APA is a cash cow that makes other leagues owners only wish they could be as profitable. From a purely #'s standpoint, I'd say that the APA has more members than any league out there. This being said, aside from the crap pay back and the bunk slop rules etc., the APA alternatively could be viewed as the organization that has brought more people to a table than any other. Apparently, if you built it, they will come.

IntoTheRail
05-19-2009, 05:23 AM
These threads always make me laugh.

As one poster said, if you play league pool with the expectation of making a profit......you're in the wrong business. It's nice to get you're money back and a little more if you finish in the top but realisticly most players play league for other reasons.

My feelings on APA are well known. Haven't played APA in almost 5 years. When I did play I played 9 ball cuz i liked the challenge of having to get 72 balls to my opponents lesser number....period. I knew it was a ripoff and i accepted it.

The APA is a pyramid scheme. Where else do you get penalized for excelling in your sport. The higher the skill level you achieve the less you can play due to the cap on team skill level. Once your team gets too good they force you to break it up and form teams with lower players to compete thereby keeping a fresh supply of new money.

I suppose it has a purpose in the pool world. It introduces people who don't play well to the sport and they get to play people of like skill and can be competitive. Other than that.....beats me why people stay in the APA

Great point, never really looked at it like that but its true.

From what I understand about the whole "payout" setup in the APA is that is entirely at the discretion of the LO. He doesnt have to give back a dime if he doesnt want to. I think this is where the problem is. The APA needs to have it set up so its a percentage based amount and have that be the end of it.

I live in south east Michigan and there is another APA division with a different LO in north east Ohio. Well our LO in Michigan charges 8 bucks a week to play and gives back about $3000 to each team that goes to Vegas (one for 8 ball and one for 9 ball). On the other hand the Ohio LO only charges 6 or 7 bucks to play and gives back 5000 to the teams going to Vegas. I think he sends more teams too but I cant remember.

Its pretty messed up. The only reason I play is that I like to compete and want to play in the singles events. I really hate the politics of it but I doubt anything will change. I just wish there was some sort of uniformity as far as the money is concerned. The payouts for just the seasonal play has always been a joke, each player might get back 30 bucks if they are lucky for a first place team and some lame ass trophy.

paksat
05-19-2009, 05:24 AM
forget the APA, I played my last season in the spring..

we're playing in the LTC and the money cup so we can win SOME of our money back.

it's a f*cking joke.

stikapos
05-19-2009, 05:36 AM
First thing, your numbers are wrong. You didn't include money paid for travel to Vegas, local tournaments and the overall overhead of keeping track of the league itself. Add to that the fact that the LO has the risk of non-payment by individuals and its not as rosy as you think. I'm not saying its not profitable, but it has its risks.

Next, if you've never made it to Vegas for the finals, it makes sense for you to throw darts from outside. Its a once-in-a-lifetime event. If $8 a week is that big a deal to you, then you need to start thinking about a job change more than changing leagues. I piss more than that away on tips at my local bar each time I go.

You are right, it is a pyramid scheme, one in need of a real CEO. But, for $8 a week, you have a shot each year to compete in Vegas. You'll meet people that you'll remember for the rest of your life. I can handle that.

tim

sonofthunder
05-19-2009, 05:56 AM
I captain an APA "AMETEUR" team. The reason we play is for the competition, not the dough. We knew this going in. Our objective is to have fun at a semi-competitive level.At $30.00 a year & $6.00 a week,
it is unrealistic to expect a huge cash payback. I really enjoy getting to compete. Our Tuesday team went to 'Vegas on the APA's dime,& we had a blast. I believe the winning team cashed 25k. Not a bad return a $300.00+
investment. Just my opinion.
Paul

pooltchr
05-19-2009, 06:13 AM
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve

IntoTheRail
05-19-2009, 06:17 AM
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve

Damn, I want to play in your division...thats the way it should be!

nancewayne
05-19-2009, 06:41 AM
Many in this thread mentioned the "free" practice time during league night. The nightly league fee usually includes a $1 or $2 per player to partly compensate the Room Owner for the use of their tables. That amount DOES NOT cover the extended use of tables before and after league play. The Owner absorbs that loss of revenue. BUT that is the price the Owner pays for the league bringing in customers in his room (drinking, eating, etc.). Most Owners I've talked to DEPEND on the revenue from league players. Also, when a league player plays out of a certain place, they also usually come back at other times to practice (therefore more business!).

DoomCue
05-19-2009, 07:00 AM
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve

Steve, stop trying to inject facts, logic, and statistics into the argument.

KT is a good LO, and she's doing a good thing sponsoring KF. Maybe next year, she can steal Marc's League Operator of the Year award. He's won it two years running, but if she wins it, it'll be nice to keep it in the NC family.

-djb

ne14tennis
05-19-2009, 07:03 AM
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve

The APA LO in our area hasn't had a council meeting in years. If he raises up a player you can bet it's on a team that is opposing a team from his area.....yes he plays favorites!

The defensive shots (Sand bagging) that goes unreported, or if it's reported nothing is done about it. The SL 3 and 4's that dog it all season come out and play like 6's and 7's......turns my stomach.

Hit your ball first and anything goes, can't play in the city tourney 8 ball singles unless you played in the 8 ball division (Read: more money for the LO)

I believe in the motto of Tom Simpson "Beat People With A Stick" don't try and beat me with back room politics and manipulation of a sad handicap system.

mreightball
05-19-2009, 07:28 AM
I don't know why if people are dissatisfied with the leagues they play in why they don't start their own league. We vote in a President, Treasurer who does the stats and collects the money's and all the captains of the teams vote on different rules etc. We give the captains self addressed envelopes with stamps on them and after the night of play during the week they just drop the scores and a check in the mail to the Treasurer. We have our own league an it ran 23 weeks we collected $17,350.00 at $5 per night per player an one monthly calendar raffle which neted $2860.00
Paid Out $1620.00 in Run tables and $430.00 in 8 Ball Breaks.
The rest of the money was all paid back to the teams.
Great League and format.
If you want to know how to do it email me at mr8ball@comcast.net
Ron

btoneill
05-19-2009, 07:50 AM
Damn, I want to play in your division...thats the way it should be!

All of the Charlotte APA is like that if you're playing in-house in a pool room. Some of the traveling teams in the Charlotte APA play in bars with only 1 or 2 bar boxes, so no free practice. But all the ones that play in pool halls on real tables are that way here.

To correct Steve on the number of teams that the Charlotte league office sends a year....
Cities held 3x year. 3 8 ball brackets, 1 9 ball bracket, winner of each goes to Vegas. So thats 4 x 3 = 12 teams.
There is also a 2nd chance tournament once a year for every team that made it to the final day of cities, so that's 2 additional teams going to vegas at $112k of travel fund money.

We also sent 17 people to the APA singles nationals this past month.

So, what do I pay my $7/week for? To be in a very well run league where I have fun playing with friends every week and have a chance for a "free" trip to vegas....

Brian

satman
05-19-2009, 07:54 AM
That is exactly what they paid back Creedo. I don't know about the guidelines as I don't play the APA.. I just thought it was bit ridiculous.

I don't play the APA leagues. I do have a couple of friends who own about 3 territories in central Indiana. The league operators DO NOT GET RICH off the leagues. It is a lot of work and travel to run 3 areas. Now I realize you can look at local league payouts and complain. But the lower level players have a chance to qualify, and get their way paid to bigger events. At those events the can win the trip to Vegas. I have some friends who have won those trips, and just loved the opportunity to play in Vegas,{not to mention, they get to play against people on their own skill level}. And thats where part of that money goes.

Like was posted earlier, "if you don't like it, don't play". You really shouldn't run down an organization that supports pool at the lower level, just because you don't like their payouts.

Danny Kuykendal
05-19-2009, 08:12 AM
The fact of life is, that if people don't get paid decently for what they do, they won't do it. That's why I've never begrudged room owners or tournament promoters for making some profit on an event. Pool players historically have dissed promoters or league operators for making a profit.

You can see what Don Mackey did to the pool scene in the early 90s by demanding most of all the moneys for himself and the players. He virtually destroyed it. This is pointed out by Jay in Pool Wars.

TheNewSharkster
05-19-2009, 08:34 AM
APA is crap IMO which is why I stopped playing. As it has been said before a considerable amount of money goes out to pay for travel to Vegas. Around here only 4 teams out of 100+ go each year. Only one cities tournament. So all the money everyone pays goes to a very small percent of the players. Not to mention once you get to cities you have to play a bunch of teams that have been sandbagging all year. 23 point system forces teams to break up. Its really crappy.

I say no thank you. I would rather spend $5 on a local tournament and actually get something in return if I win <gasp>

Richardson
05-19-2009, 08:36 AM
Tournaments are def good. + they are better for your pool game.

CocoboloCowboy
05-19-2009, 08:36 AM
Fatboy I could have worded that better. I mixed in our ACS payout vs the APA. The APA took in $4800 over a 15 week session. 8 teams at $8 a head. They paid back 1000. Yes $3,800 gone. Now IF this was the only division & some was taken for the vegas trip etc I could see it somewhat but it is not. The LO has over 250+ teams state wide & send 3 teams in 8ball & 2 in 9ball annually to Vegas. The $3800 was taken from the small 8 team division. Nice huh.

how did the other people in the league about being short changed?:wink:

Roger Long
05-19-2009, 09:39 AM
I have always favored BCA or ACS leagues myself because I feel the overall level of competition is stronger, the pay backs are usually higher, and the Vegas tournaments are open to everyone who is sanctioned. In Arizona we have them all: APA, TAP, BCA, ACS and VNEA, and the APA is still the biggest even though the BCA has been around the longest. As a matter of fact, the BCA and ACS leagues here have fewer players combined than any one of the other systems mentioned.

After giving this particular phenomenon much thought, I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of players out there are not like me (and probably you, since you're reading this). They don't take the game seriously. They are just out to have fun. They make new acquaintances and build new friendships. They get out of the house once or twice a week and they play good (for them), or bad, and it really doesn't matter which because they are just having a good time. And they are willing to pay for that good time. They don't expect money back - they'll take it if offered, but they really don't EXPECT it. Most of them will be happy if they can just win a trophy at some point in time. And here's the kicker; most of them have no desire to go beyond this level of play. But that's all good. For those who want to "graduate" to more serious play, the BCA and ACS are there for them. And for those who don't, good, because the pool rooms need that vast horde of players to help make ends meet.

So I love the APA and all the other "fun" leagues. They all contribute to this wonderful world of pool! :thumbup:

Roger

rope_one
05-19-2009, 09:44 AM
I have always favored BCA or ACS leagues myself because I feel the overall level of competition is stronger, the pay backs are usually higher, and the Vegas tournaments are open to everyone who is sanctioned. In Arizona we have them all: APA, TAP, BCA, ACS and VNEA, and the APA is still the biggest even though the BCA has been around the longest. As a matter of fact, the BCA and ACS leagues here have fewer players combined than any one of the other systems mentioned.

After giving this particular phenomenon much thought, I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of players out there are not like me (and probably you, since you're reading this). They don't take the game seriously. They are just out to have fun. They make new acquaintances and build new friendships. They get out of the house once or twice a week and they play good (for them), or bad, and it really doesn't matter which because they are just having a good time. And they are willing to pay for that good time. They don't expect money back - they'll take it if offered, but they really don't EXPECT it. Most of them will be happy if they can just win a trophy at some point in time. And here's the kicker; most of them have no desire to go beyond this level of play. But that's all good. For those who want to "graduate" to more serious play, the BCA and ACS are there for them. And for those who don't, good, because the pool rooms need that vast horde of players to help make ends meet.

So I love the APA and all the other "fun" leagues. They all contribute to this wonderful world of pool! :thumbup:

Roger

Roger you realize this post makes too much sense for the topic? :)

Just kidding, this is pretty much the long and short of it and most people can't accept that people play for different reasons.

catscradle
05-19-2009, 09:45 AM
Anybody who joins any league to make money is a fool, just like anybody who walks in a casino to make money is a fool. It is just a place to play pool. They're in the entertainment business, if you're not entertained go someplace else.

mongoose-
05-19-2009, 10:20 AM
how did the other people in the league about being short changed?:wink:

From what I understand they aren't very happy but the MAJORITY of the players in that are lured for that FREE trip to Vegas & can't add 2 + 2 anyway. Suckers are born every day I guess... just glad it isn't me.

And anyone who can post here that taking $3800 out of a $4800 purse is justified is full of SH** period. I haven't seen anyone say they was in a league for the money but in this thread... either way you look at it that take out of "the players money" is ridiculous.

frankncali
05-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Its amazing to me that people here complain so much about the APA making a profit. Thats what businesses do --hopefully.

Do you really think that a bottle water company doesnt make a fortune. Or that a pet food company doesnt make 300-400% profit?

I cant imagine going through everyday totally looking at who I am doing business with and worrying about how much they are charging.

We can only hope that its fair and operated correctly.


I wonder just how many times the complainers actually thank a place for doing it in a manner that they apporve of. How many times they tell the owners that they appreciate the good rates etc.. I bet it isnt nearly as often or emotional as the complaints.

btoneill
05-19-2009, 10:39 AM
And anyone who can post here that taking $3800 out of a $4800 purse is justified is full of SH** period. I haven't seen anyone say they was in a league for the money but in this thread... either way you look at it that take out of "the players money" is ridiculous.

You keep talking about this purse as the division winner being the final payout of that $4,800... They paid $1,000 of it to the winner of the division. From there they qualify for the next level tournament (cities, regionals, etc, depending on how the LO does it in that area). Once you win your division you don't pay the fee's in the high level tournaments.

Maybe the LO in that area does take a huge portion of the money paid in, maybe they don't. Until you know how many teams they have, how many and how much they get paid in higher level tournaments, how many they send to Vegas, and how much each team gets in travel assistance, you can't say they are taking $3,800 out of the purse as you're only seeing a tiny portion of the purse. The purse is all the payouts in all the various forms for the entire session, not just that one divisions winner.

And don't just look at the "cash" prize. Think of the cost for plaques, t-shirts, etc for teams that won different awards that may be in that division. There is the cost of the patches that people win for different accomplishments.

So, when you come back with the breakdown of how all the money is spent and what % goes back to the players when you factor in the entire session/year you can continue to *****. As you only have _ONE_ number out of many and using that to make your assumptions you're just showing ignorance.

Brian

tucson9ball
05-19-2009, 11:32 AM
I have always favored BCA or ACS leagues myself because I feel the overall level of competition is stronger, the pay backs are usually higher, and the Vegas tournaments are open to everyone who is sanctioned. In Arizona we have them all: APA, TAP, BCA, ACS and VNEA, and the APA is still the biggest even though the BCA has been around the longest. As a matter of fact, the BCA and ACS leagues here have fewer players combined than any one of the other systems mentioned.

After giving this particular phenomenon much thought, I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of players out there are not like me (and probably you, since you're reading this). They don't take the game seriously. They are just out to have fun. They make new acquaintances and build new friendships. They get out of the house once or twice a week and they play good (for them), or bad, and it really doesn't matter which because they are just having a good time. And they are willing to pay for that good time. They don't expect money back - they'll take it if offered, but they really don't EXPECT it. Most of them will be happy if they can just win a trophy at some point in time. And here's the kicker; most of them have no desire to go beyond this level of play. But that's all good. For those who want to "graduate" to more serious play, the BCA and ACS are there for them. And for those who don't, good, because the pool rooms need that vast horde of players to help make ends meet.

So I love the APA and all the other "fun" leagues. They all contribute to this wonderful world of pool! :thumbup:

Roger

Ok Roger, I agree with the part about some players just wanting to have fun. But, I have to disagree with the ACS having strong competition. I have played with many leagues, starting out in the Falcon Leagues which became the VNEA. Later I went into the BCA, VNEA, ACS, APA and finally back to the BCA. The reason I switched around was that our league operator switched one year from the BCA to the ACS.
I was very happy playing in the BCA which has 600 to 800 open teams show up to Vegas each year. When we arrive to play, we have to visit the brackets and see which one we are in and when we play. Well, 3 years ago we tried out the ACS and upon arriving in Vegas, I said to my team mate "let's go check out and see what bracket we are in"? Guess what, there was only 1 bracket for all the open teams. It was a 128 team bracket and was not even full, there were about 96 teams in total. I'm not saying the competition was bad, just not a very good turnout.
Ok, back to OP. I also play in a APA Masters team which after we win the city championship, we have our whole trip payed for. I like the format of race to 7 in the Masters. I don't think I could ever play in the APA handicap league because after having a few beers, I don't think I would be able to score correctly. It's much easier to mark a win or loss lol.

FeltMaster
05-19-2009, 11:37 AM
I captain an APA "AMETEUR" team. The reason we play is for the competition, not the dough. We knew this going in. Our objective is to have fun at a semi-competitive level.At $30.00 a year & $6.00 a week,
it is unrealistic to expect a huge cash payback. I really enjoy getting to compete. Our Tuesday team went to 'Vegas on the APA's dime,& we had a blast. I believe the winning team cashed 25k. Not a bad return a $300.00+
investment. Just my opinion.
Paul

I have to agree with Paul. This is a social League with possibilities of cash and trips to Vegas. I also Captain an 8 ball team that lost in the finals for Vegas last year, and played on a 9 ball team than won the trip, so I can't complain. League Operators in some places do pay $1.00 per person per night in green fees, plus they do have to pay a royalty on each player that plays that night.
We have three "Money Cups" ( $10,000) each year and the "Vegas Cup" ( 2 8 ball teams and 1 9 ball team wins)for both 8 ball and 9 ball and the payouts are fair and the trips run about $4000.00 per team x 3. But yes the LO is running a business.
This is a small 48 team franchise.
I enjoy the time with people who enjoy the same hobby. Yes, I don't make a living playing pool.....not many do.
My $.02
Dom

MO RIVER POOL
05-19-2009, 12:40 PM
does anyone (the complainers)actually have a clue how much time is put into entering score sheets and dealing with dues and renewals and such??? my wife does all of ours for our tap league and ill bet she puts in 15 hrs a week for this alone after she works her normal 45-50 hr 6 day a week job, so i tell you the league operators are not making a killing, step back and look at the real deal guys, put yourself into this, would you work for free? NO, also dont you realize that all those free trips are paid for by the lo, not to mention all the time setting up reservations and rental cars and so on. so think a little more about the people who provide you these services and the time they put in for you!!!!!
keep in mind some leagues offer nice amenites also besides free practice, we have 9 diamond bar boxes with simonis cloth and aramith balls, tell me who has that (im sure we arnt the only ones)? its just the point, we have league 4 nights a week and about to 5, so all those night you all play practice for free we cant make a dime on the hourly rate charged for those tables, so league does help keep the doors open to some of the places you all frequent and enjoy. and play many many games of pool!

TheBook
05-19-2009, 01:10 PM
Your LO was generous. Our first place team got a trophy and about $20 PP. plus the chance to play in the state tournament for a "chance" to go to Vegas. The rest of us got the old RD. Didn't get enough back to buy a drink. And from what I have heard the money that you get may not be enough to pay for the air fare and requires about 4 players to a room. The thing about this is some teams have female players and from the looks of them I don't want to be in the same room. Plus my wife wouldn't let me go to Vegas without her and I wouldn't want to either so it would cost me more than it is worth.

Right now I have a 7 day trip planned for Vegas in June. All the nights have been comped and all I have to do is pay for the air. Don't have to meet anyones schedule and can really enjoy it without all the BS. Don't need the APA to go there.

APA is a franchise. I look at it as nothing more than a night out to enjoy competition without fights. Don't depend or rely on money back. It costs $8 if I play and that is a cheap night out. If I wanted or needed the money I would do something else.

stormshadow1
05-19-2009, 01:13 PM
:thumbup:A most excellent point.Exactly!!:thumbup:

stikapos
05-19-2009, 01:26 PM
does anyone (the complainers)actually have a clue how much time is put into entering score sheets and dealing with dues and renewals and such??? my wife does all of ours for our tap league and ill bet she puts in 15 hrs a week for this alone after she works her normal 45-50 hr 6 day a week job, so i tell you the league operators are not making a killing, step back and look at the real deal guys, put yourself into this, would you work for free? NO, also dont you realize that all those free trips are paid for by the lo, not to mention all the time setting up reservations and rental cars and so on. so think a little more about the people who provide you these services and the time they put in for you!!!!!
keep in mind some leagues offer nice amenites also besides free practice, we have 9 diamond bar boxes with simonis cloth and aramith balls, tell me who has that (im sure we arnt the only ones)? its just the point, we have league 4 nights a week and about to 5, so all those night you all play practice for free we cant make a dime on the hourly rate charged for those tables, so league does help keep the doors open to some of the places you all frequent and enjoy. and play many many games of pool!

tap tap tap!!! Leave it to a golfer and they'll pay an arm and a leg for anything that allows them to play. A pool player expects someone else to pay for it!
tim

Big Perm
05-19-2009, 01:30 PM
REPOST

You could have just searched :D

If ya want leagues, pay da money and have fun.....if ya want cash back, you can get a game for $5 a rack at almost any pool hall....put in some work, it's not all that hard to make $100 a week.....20 weeks, $2k, take a trip to Vegas or anywhere ya want :thumbup:

EDIT - forgot to add, instead of someone else using a magic formula, when you match up on your own, you get to negotiate and handicap your own matches.....even more fun...

CreeDo
05-19-2009, 01:34 PM
I tried the APA and even though my experience wasn't 100% positive, I'd probably do it again.

As so many others have posted, you do not go into it looking to make money. You are paying to play, just like you'd pay table time to play if there were no league. Maybe it's more expensive than just playing with a buddy, but it also offers the chance to win money back and you're getting a different kind of competition and a social thing (for lack of a better word).

I can see why the original poster would feel like it's a ripoff, but apparently he's in the minority... the APA is the most successful and it's not just marketing. If people truly hated losing 70-90% of that weekly seven bucks, the league would have shrivelled up and died.

I was guaranteed at least 5-7 games for my 7 bucks, nevermind free practice, so I can't really say it's a ripoff. Yeah, it seems that way if you see the league operator rolling in dough... but I don't mind donating to someone who helps brings people to the table and gets an amateur to take pool more seriously. And anyway I dunno if he's as rich as he sounds. He can't singlehandedly be running all 250 without paying people to help? If the guy's making a half million bucks I'll be pretty shocked. Maybe he is?!

CocoboloCowboy
05-19-2009, 01:47 PM
From what I understand they aren't very happy but the MAJORITY of the players in that are lured for that FREE trip to Vegas & can't add 2 + 2 anyway. Suckers are born every day I guess... just glad it isn't me.

And anyone who can post here that taking $3800 out of a $4800 purse is justified is full of SH** period. I haven't seen anyone say they was in a league for the money but in this thread... either way you look at it that take out of "the players money" is ridiculous.


Thanks for your reply to my question. Think you are correct about people being lured at time.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-19-2009, 03:21 PM
tap tap tap!!! Leave it to a golfer and they'll pay an arm and a leg for anything that allows them to play. A pool player expects someone else to pay for it!
tim

I LIKE THIS ONE........

IT'S VERY VERY TRUE. I DON'T GOLF ALOT, BUT I HAVE SOME FANATICAL BUDDIES ABOUT GOLF, AND THE MONEY THEY SPEND TO "GET BETTER" IS ASTOUNDING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, EVERY DAY THAT I'M IN MY POOLROOM IT BAFFLES ME ON HOW CHEAP POOL PLAYERS REALLY CAN BE......... THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR A 10 DOLLAR TIP-PIK, THEY EXPECT ME TO OPEN A NEW ONE, PIK THE TIP FOR THEM, AND THAN JUST RECLOSE THE PIK AND HANG IT BACK UP. OR, THEY WHINE ABOUT PAYING 8 DOLLARS FOR MY 6 HOUR DAILY SPECIAL, AND THAN HAVE THE NERVE TO DUMP OUT A COFFE POT THAT IS AN HOUR OLD AND EXPECT NEW STUFF. (MY COFFEE IS FREE)

P.S. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE APA, OR CAN'T AFFORD IT, PLAY IN ANOTHER LEAGUE, OR DON'T PLAY.

Marcus

MO RIVER POOL
05-19-2009, 03:32 PM
I LIKE THIS ONE........

IT'S VERY VERY TRUE. I DON'T GOLF ALOT, BUT I HAVE SOME FANATICAL BUDDIES ABOUT GOLF, AND THE MONEY THEY SPEND TO "GET BETTER" IS ASTOUNDING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, EVERY DAY THAT I'M IN MY POOLROOM IT BAFFLES ME ON HOW CHEAP POOL PLAYERS REALLY CAN BE......... THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR A 10 DOLLAR TIP-PIK, THEY EXPECT ME TO OPEN A NEW ONE, PIK THE TIP FOR THEM, AND THAN JUST RECLOSE THE PIK AND HANG IT BACK UP. OR, THEY WHINE ABOUT PAYING 8 DOLLARS FOR MY 6 HOUR DAILY SPECIAL, AND THAN HAVE THE NERVE TO DUMP OUT A COFFE POT THAT IS AN HOUR OLD AND EXPECT NEW STUFF. (MY COFFEE IS FREE)

P.S. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE APA, OR CAN'T AFFORD IT, PLAY IN ANOTHER LEAGUE, OR DON'T PLAY.

Marcus

i second that, we play for fun/competition, if you wanna play for a living, get better and turn pro. otherwise come enjoy the evening like we do and join us in some great bs and story telling. were else can you enjoy a full evening for $7 (in our league). hell a movie and a soda is 12.00 and thats only 2 hrs if your lucky.

Gwen's up
05-19-2009, 03:34 PM
Without reading 3 pages of people sniveling that they aren't getting paid to play pool here is my 2 cents:


League play is supposed to be for fun, comradery, competition, and socialization.

The trip to Vegas, the point money, and singles boards are just bonuses to make it a little more fun.

When you go to a movie is it free? How about Dinner?

How about a softball team?

Golf Course?


LOs have plenty of expenses to cover.

Think of all the paper work. This includes computer time, printer ink, paper, envelopes, stamps.....

Organization...Making the schedules, changing the schedules, remitting the schedules...(more paper, ink, time, mailing)

Planning/Scheduling..Scheduling the season around holidays, busy vacation times. Planning the events and securing the locations. Putting together and recruiting help for the "City Cup" (regionals)

This is these people's jobs. Everyone has to make a living and some do it by owning a golf course, resturaunt, operating on brains, building pool cues..etc

Why should a LO earn 75,000 a year? Why should a football player earn 3,000,000 a year?


League play is entertainment that we pay for on a weekly basis. People who expect all the money back to the players crack me up. Consider it icing on the cake to get back point money or a "free" trip to Vegas.


Sheesh!

Dawgie
05-19-2009, 03:37 PM
Thanks Marcus. My thoughts exactly!

rlw
05-19-2009, 03:39 PM
I wanted to throw this payout scenario out here regarding the APA vs our local ACS league. I asked what the payout was for their division of 8 teams & the total prize fund to pay among 3 places was $1,000. The took in $4,800 in a 15 week session. We paid back $1,100 for 1st.. $700 for 2nd .. & $400 to 3rd with ONLY 4 teams. That is $3,800 gone from the APA division purse. Also keep in mind this LO runs the entire state & I would estimate has 250+ teams in several divisions. So the little 8 team division they have here is just a small slice of the pie. Now I am sure we will get the usual blah blah speel about how the APA is a business & such. There is of course nothing wrong with someone making a living. This however is going overboard... it is plain robbery to the players paying into this foolishness. It is hard for me to understand how nieve people can be. Do the math people the so called "free" trip to Vegas is NOT free.


at $320.00 dollars a week the LO is really getting rich. and then he has to put up with a bunch of people that want to ***** ***** ***** some more. doesn't really seem worth it.

Fatboy
05-19-2009, 04:20 PM
i like this one........

It's very very true. I don't golf alot, but i have some fanatical buddies about golf, and the money they spend to "get better" is astounding.

On the other hand, every day that i'm in my poolroom it baffles me on how cheap pool players really can be......... They don't want to pay for a 10 dollar tip-pik, they expect me to open a new one, pik the tip for them, and than just reclose the pik and hang it back up. Or, they whine about paying 8 dollars for my 6 hour daily special, and than have the nerve to dump out a coffe pot that is an hour old and expect new stuff. (my coffee is free)

p.s. If you don't like the apa, or can't afford it, play in another league, or don't play.

Marcus

you hit the bulls eye, pool players are cheap, and because of that fact they dont have much comming back, the pool players economy is in a constant recession-because they are cheap. If they wernt cheap there would be more loose $$ circulating in their economy. They think being cheap is the way to make $$$, it aint,- if it was all pool players would be rich.

CocoboloCowboy
05-19-2009, 04:28 PM
ON THE OTHER HAND, EVERY DAY THAT I'M IN MY POOLROOM IT BAFFLES ME ON HOW CHEAP POOL PLAYERS REALLY CAN BE......... THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR A 10 DOLLAR TIP-PIK, THEY EXPECT ME TO OPEN A NEW ONE, PIK THE TIP FOR THEM, AND THAN JUST RECLOSE THE PIK AND HANG IT BACK UP. OR, THEY WHINE ABOUT PAYING 8 DOLLARS FOR MY 6 HOUR DAILY SPECIAL, AND THAN HAVE THE NERVE TO DUMP OUT A COFFE POT THAT IS AN HOUR OLD AND EXPECT NEW STUFF. (MY COFFEE IS FREE)


Marcus

PAYING 8 DOLLARS FOR MY 6 HOUR DAILY SPECIAL SOUNDS LIKE A DEAL!:wink:

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-19-2009, 08:19 PM
paying 8 dollars for my 6 hour daily special sounds like a deal!:wink:

so is 7 a night for a shot at a trip to vegas, but in both cases, most pool players feel they are getting ripped off.

mongoose-
05-19-2009, 09:13 PM
You keep talking about this purse as the division winner being the final payout of that $4,800... They paid $1,000 of it to the winner of the division. From there they qualify for the next level tournament (cities, regionals, etc, depending on how the LO does it in that area). Once you win your division you don't pay the fee's in the high level tournaments.

Maybe the LO in that area does take a huge portion of the money paid in, maybe they don't. Until you know how many teams they have, how many and how much they get paid in higher level tournaments, how many they send to Vegas, and how much each team gets in travel assistance, you can't say they are taking $3,800 out of the purse as you're only seeing a tiny portion of the purse. The purse is all the payouts in all the various forms for the entire session, not just that one divisions winner.

And don't just look at the "cash" prize. Think of the cost for plaques, t-shirts, etc for teams that won different awards that may be in that division. There is the cost of the patches that people win for different accomplishments.

So, when you come back with the breakdown of how all the money is spent and what % goes back to the players when you factor in the entire session/year you can continue to *****. As you only have _ONE_ number out of many and using that to make your assumptions you're just showing ignorance.

Brian

For starters here theres only a qualifier for the states which lead to vegas. NO CASH is paid in either. 250+ teams sending 3 in 8ball & 2 in 9 ball is BS. Plain & simple.. let alone those who win then drive 7 hours to Boston for the flight... we don't live in Mass here we live in Maine. So you do the math APA genious and show me some of your ignorance. The numbers DO NOT lie. My numbers add up just fine jacknuts thus why I am not the retard being ripped off as aparently you are. Good luck donating.

mongoose-
05-19-2009, 09:18 PM
Thanks for your reply to my question. Think you are correct about people being lured at time.

Always welcome CocoboloCowboy. :)

FeltMaster
05-20-2009, 04:16 AM
For starters here theres only a qualifier for the states which lead to vegas. NO CASH is paid in either. 250+ teams sending 3 in 8ball & 2 in 9 ball is BS. Plain & simple.. let alone those who win then drive 7 hours to Boston for the flight... we don't live in Mass here we live in Maine. So you do the math APA genious and show me some of your ignorance. The numbers DO NOT lie. My numbers add up just fine jacknuts thus why I am not the retard being ripped off as aparently you are. Good luck donating.

This sounds more like a LO issue not an issue with the APA in general.
Maybe players in your area need to look into the franchise agreement and see if your LO in within guidlines. If he is, than he is one hell of a business man to keep 250 teams going (our local APA is 10% the size of your LO's and we send three teams to Vegas and have 3 money tournaments a year)......they (players) must enjoy playing pool and the company they keep if they keep coming back session after session.....I am sure that is why they play, not just for the possibility of a trip or some cash.

BryanBpool
05-20-2009, 05:32 AM
This sounds more like a LO issue not an issue with the APA in general.
Maybe players in your area need to look into the franchise agreement and see if your LO in within guidlines. If he is, than he is one hell of a business man to keep 250 teams going (our local APA is 10% the size of your LO's and we send three teams to Vegas and have 3 money tournaments a year)......they (players) must enjoy playing pool and the company they keep if they keep coming back session after session.....I am sure that is why they play, not just for the possibility of a trip or some cash.

Same with the APA league I belong too. there is maybe 80 teams and we send three 8 ball teams and one 9 ball team to vegas.

I personally joined the APA not for the chance to go to Vegas, but because the pool room I shoot at provides FREE POOL from open to 7pm on weekdays for all APA members who play out of his room. Several local rooms here in Clearwater have this perk for APA members.

so for 7$ a week, I probably squeak out 5-7 hours of free pool.

Seems like a win/win for me.

I have never understood the burning hatered for the APA. Its an Amateur League with crappy payouts. So what? If you dont like it, don't play in it.

The only reason I still play in the APA, is becuase I enjoy the night out with friends. I would be much better served playing in an open league of some sort.

pooltchr
05-20-2009, 05:48 AM
The numbers DO NOT lie. My numbers add up just fine jacknuts thus why I am not the retard being ripped off as aparently you are. Good luck donating.

We have pool rooms here in town that charge as much as $8 per hour for table time. At the end of your hour, you either turn in the balls, or pay for another hour. When you are done, you don't get anything back from the room. That is how he makes his living.

You pay $30 a year and 7 or 8 bucks a night to play every week. Even if you got nothing at all back from the league, it's still a good deal. Someone else posted that pool players seem to want everything for free. I'm beginning to see what they meant.

Why don't you start uip a league yourself? You can do all the work, and then pay everything you made back to your players. You will be broke, but everyone will love you.

Steve

Patrick53212
05-20-2009, 06:11 AM
How about this...I play in four different leagues in Milwaukee. Two are inner-city leagues (Northside), one East Side league, and one BCA league.

For the two inner-city leagues, the tavern owners for whom I played paid all of the dues and the quarters for the entire season!!!! Nothing out of my pocket. Whenever we played away games we got a $40 tab to drink on for the five of us. Then, at the end of the season they simply subtract their expenses from our prize money and we are still going to get over $100 per person back for a fourth place finish and more than $150 per person back for a third place finish!!!!

On the East side, we paid $9.00 per week including quarters. We took second and got back $200 per person for four players. There were 7 teams in our league.

In the BCA, I was simply a sub getting my games in so that I qualify to play in BCA tournament events. I did not get any prize money but have done so in the past.

I have never played in the APA. However, I would not want to based on what I have read.

stikapos
05-20-2009, 06:11 AM
For starters here theres only a qualifier for the states which lead to vegas. NO CASH is paid in either. 250+ teams sending 3 in 8ball & 2 in 9 ball is BS. Plain & simple.. let alone those who win then drive 7 hours to Boston for the flight... we don't live in Mass here we live in Maine. So you do the math APA genious and show me some of your ignorance. The numbers DO NOT lie. My numbers add up just fine jacknuts thus why I am not the retard being ripped off as aparently you are. Good luck donating.

I love folks who use terms like "jacknuts". What this all comes down to is that you are free not to participate in the APA or anything else you don't wish to. You also have the ability to critique the franchise. HOWEVER, it doesn't mean, that based on your arguments (or lack thereof), that we have to concur, follow, agree or believe you. Which is why folks of your ilk always piss me off. Its your way or the highway. I happen to disagree with you, but there is no doubt that you are certainly entitled to your opinion. The key is that we aren't all losers just because we disagree with you. That's just ignorant.

Unfortunately, you are the representative gene pool in billiards. Which is why Tiger Woods owns a yacht and Ralf Souquet is eating burgers at McDonalds. Golfers invest in the sport and pool players expect someone else to pay for it. Funny, I never hear a golfer complaining about profits made on the $500 driver they just bought.

tim

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 07:59 AM
We have pool rooms here in town that charge as much as $8 per hour for table time. At the end of your hour, you either turn in the balls, or pay for another hour. When you are done, you don't get anything back from the room. That is how he makes his living.

You pay $30 a year and 7 or 8 bucks a night to play every week. Even if you got nothing at all back from the league, it's still a good deal. Someone else posted that pool players seem to want everything for free. I'm beginning to see what they meant.

Why don't you start uip a league yourself? You can do all the work, and then pay everything you made back to your players. You will be broke, but everyone will love you.

Steve

I do run a league if you read the first post. We started it last year has just 4 teams this summer.. had 6 throughout the winter... it pays back 100%. It takes me 20 minutes to do the score sheets & I have a job thanks so I don't need to leech off the players & I am far from broke. I am happy to give them back what they put in which is what they deserve. They don't deserve being fleeced by a LO with a lure of a free trip to Vegas when the trip is NOT free. I know that may be hard to understand for some as they are so used to getting robbed.

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 08:12 AM
I love folks who use terms like "jacknuts". What this all comes down to is that you are free not to participate in the APA or anything else you don't wish to. You also have the ability to critique the franchise. HOWEVER, it doesn't mean, that based on your arguments (or lack thereof), that we have to concur, follow, agree or believe you. Which is why folks of your ilk always piss me off. Its your way or the highway. I happen to disagree with you, but there is no doubt that you are certainly entitled to your opinion. The key is that we aren't all losers just because we disagree with you. That's just ignorant.

Unfortunately, you are the representative gene pool in billiards. Which is why Tiger Woods owns a yacht and Ralf Souquet is eating burgers at McDonalds. Golfers invest in the sport and pool players expect someone else to pay for it. Funny, I never hear a golfer complaining about profits made on the $500 driver they just bought.

tim

LOL funnyyyyy. Glad I could piss you off either way & glad you think it is people like me that is why there is no money in pool. If that is your answer to take money from the players pot like the APA does it no wonder why there would be no money in pool. Won't be long & pool players won't be able to afford to go to Mcdonalds either. :)

APA LO
05-20-2009, 08:26 AM
I do run a league if you read the first post. We started it last year has just 4 teams this summer.. had 6 throughout the winter... it pays back 100%. It takes me 20 minutes to do the score sheets & I have a job thanks so I don't need to leech off the players & I am far from broke. I am happy to give them back what they put in which is what they deserve. They don't deserve being fleeced by a LO with a lure of a free trip to Vegas when the trip is NOT free. I know that may be hard to understand for some as they are so used to getting robbed.

You are comparing your 4 team league with a 250 team league as if the workload is fairly similar?

Comedy gold!

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:28 AM
for starters here theres only a qualifier for the states which lead to vegas. No cash is paid in either. 250+ teams sending 3 in 8ball & 2 in 9 ball is bs. Plain & simple.. Let alone those who win then drive 7 hours to boston for the flight... We don't live in mass here we live in maine. So you do the math apa genious and show me some of your ignorance. The numbers do not lie. My numbers add up just fine jacknuts thus why i am not the retard being ripped off as aparently you are. Good luck donating.

no name calling.

If you can't have an adult conversation, you shouldn't post about the subject.

Marcus <--- not trying to be the az police, but name calling is not needed

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:30 AM
You are comparing your 4 team league with a 250 team league as if the workload is fairly similar?

Comedy gold!

4...... 250..... WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE THE DIFFERENCE???????

Marcus <-----DOESN'T WANT TO BE A LO, POOL PLAYERS WHINE TOO MUCH

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 08:32 AM
You are comparing your 4 team league with a 250 team league as if the workload is fairly similar?

Comedy gold!

Of course the work load isn't similar but are you going to tell me the work load is worth $3800 out of $4800 paid in... well probably you are as you are a LO.

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 08:34 AM
no name calling.

If you can't have an adult conversation, you shouldn't post about the subject.

Marcus <--- not trying to be the az police, but name calling is not needed

so so sorry..... :rolleyes:

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:35 AM
LOL funnyyyyy. Glad I could piss you off either way & glad you think it is people like me that is why there is no money in pool. If that is your answer to take money from the players pot like the APA does it no wonder why there would be no money in pool. Won't be long & pool players won't be able to afford to go to Mcdonalds either. :)

NOT YOU IN PARTICULAR, BUT GROUPS OF GUYS LIKE YOU, ARE THE REASON THERE IS NO MONEY IN POOL. IF YOU AREN'T WILLING TO SPEND ANY MONEY, THE SPORT DOESN'T GENERATE MONEY.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE 7 DOLLARS A WEEK, THAN DON'T PLAY. ENJOY YOUR 4 TEAM LEAGUE, AND PLAYING THE SAME GUYS OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER AGAIN. SOUNDS BOREING TO ME.

I'VE GONE TO VEGAS WITH THE APA FOR TEAM NATIONALS (TWICE), AND SCOTCH DOUBLES. I ENJOYED EVERY TRIP.

I'M GONNA TAKE A GUESS THAT YOU'VE NEVER QUALIFIED FOR NATIONALS, AND THAT YOU THINK YOUR WHOLE TEAM WAS OVER RATED, AND THAT THE LO IS OUT TO GET YOU?

Marcus <--- HAS LEARNED, THAT IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING, JUST DON'T PARTICIPATE

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:36 AM
so so sorry..... :rolleyes:

THANKS FOR BEING SARCASTIC, THAT'S ANOTHER SIGN OF MATURITY.

SWEARING AND NAME CALLING IS THE ATTEMPT OF A FEEBLE MIND TO SPEAK WITH AUTHORITY.

Marcus <---- JUST WANTED YOU TO STOP MAKING YOURSELF LOOK FEEBLE MINDED

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 08:38 AM
NOT YOU IN PARTICULAR, BUT GROUPS OF GUYS LIKE YOU, ARE THE REASON THERE IS NO MONEY IN POOL. IF YOU AREN'T WILLING TO SPEND ANY MONEY, THE SPORT DOESN'T GENERATE MONEY.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE 7 DOLLARS A WEEK, THAN DON'T PLAY. ENJOY YOUR 4 TEAM LEAGUE, AND PLAYING THE SAME GUYS OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER AGAIN. SOUNDS BOREING TO ME.

I'VE GONE TO VEGAS WITH THE APA FOR TEAM NATIONALS (TWICE), AND SCOTCH DOUBLES. I ENJOYED EVERY TRIP.

I'M GONNA TAKE A GUESS THAT YOU'VE NEVER QUALIFIED FOR NATIONALS, AND THAT YOU THINK YOUR WHOLE TEAM WAS OVER RATED, AND THAT THE LO IS OUT TO GET YOU?

Marcus <--- HAS LEARNED, THAT IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING, JUST DON'T PARTICIPATE

wrong assumption... when I tried the APA several years ago I went to the nationals in the Masters & it was a good time & a well run event.. we finished 17th... don't keep assuming.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:39 AM
Of course the work load isn't similar but are you going to tell me the work load is worth $3800 out of $4800 paid in... well probably you are as you are a LO.

YOU THINK IT DOESN'T COST ANYTHING TO RUN THE LEAGUE? AND THAT HIS TIME IS WORTH NOTHING? DO YOU THINK THE AIRLINES FLY THE PLAYERS FOR FREE, OR THAT THE HOTELS ARE SO GENEROUS THAT THEY JUST HAVE ALL THE TEAMS STAY IN VEGAS FOR FREE?



THIS IS THE BEAUTY OF POOLPLAYERS......... NOTHING IS EVER GOOD ENOUGH, AND THE PAYOUT IS NEVER HIGH ENOUGH.

Marcus <------ NOTHING IS FREE

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 08:42 AM
THANKS FOR BEING SARCASTIC, THAT'S ANOTHER SIGN OF MATURITY.

SWEARING AND NAME CALLING IS THE ATTEMPT OF A FEEBLE MIND TO SPEAK WITH AUTHORITY.

Marcus <---- JUST WANTED YOU TO STOP MAKING YOURSELF LOOK FEEBLE MINDED

Do you call maturity someone who has a bunch of pictures of half naked women in their signature & types in caps mature. You can spend all you want into the APA don't matter to me either way not my money going out the window.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:44 AM
wrong assumption... when I tried the APA several years ago I went to the nationals in the Masters & it was a good time & a well run event.. we finished 17th... don't keep assuming.

OK, MY POINT WAS TO GET AN ANSWER WITHOUT ASKING THE QUESTION.

IF YOU WENT TO NATIONALS, AND CASHED, YOU SHOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY WITH THE APA.

DO YOU GET MAD AT THE GUY THAT FIXES YOUR CAR? OR SELLS YOU BATTERIES? THE PROFIT MARGIN ON THOSE, AND MANY OTHER ITEMS/SERVICES IS MUCH HIGHER THAN THE APA, FOR LESS WORK.

DO YOU WANT TO BE THE LO LISTENING TO 100 POOLPLAYERS CALLING TO WHINE ABOUT THEIR SKILL LEVEL, OR SOMEBODY ELSE'S SKILL LEVEL? EVERY WEEK, OVER AND OVER AND OVER....... POOLPLAYERS NEVER STOP WHINING.

I'M AN APA DIVISION REP, AND HEAR THE WHINING, AND GET TO SEE THE E-MAILS THAT THE LEAGUE OP HAS TO READ EVERY WEEK. I'D LOSE MY MIND, AND IT'S NO WHERE NEAR WORTH WHAT HE MAKES TO DEAL WITH IT.


Marcus <--- SORRY THAT YOU DON'T LIKE THE APA

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:46 AM
Do you call maturity someone who has a bunch of pictures of half naked women in their signature & types in caps mature. You can spend all you want into the APA don't matter to me either way not my money going out the window.

BECAUSE I LIKE WOMEN, AND I HAVE BAD EYES THAT MAKES ME IMMATURE?

YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING.

Marcus <---MATURE ENOUGH TO NOT RESORT TO NAME CALLING

Richardson
05-20-2009, 08:48 AM
Megan Fox is super hot.

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 08:49 AM
OK, MY POINT WAS TO GET AN ANSWER WITHOUT ASKING THE QUESTION.

IF YOU WENT TO NATIONALS, AND CASHED, YOU SHOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY WITH THE APA.

DO YOU GET MAD AT THE GUY THAT FIXES YOUR CAR? OR SELLS YOU BATTERIES? THE PROFIT MARGIN ON THOSE, AND MANY OTHER ITEMS/SERVICES IS MUCH HIGHER THAN THE APA, FOR LESS WORK.

DO YOU WANT TO BE THE LO LISTENING TO 100 POOLPLAYERS CALLING TO WHINE ABOUT THEIR SKILL LEVEL, OR SOMEBODY ELSE'S SKILL LEVEL? EVERY WEEK, OVER AND OVER AND OVER....... POOLPLAYERS NEVER STOP WHINING.

I'M AN APA DIVISION REP, AND HEAR THE WHINING, AND GET TO SEE THE E-MAILS THAT THE LEAGUE OP HAS TO READ EVERY WEEK. I'D LOSE MY MIND, AND IT'S NO WHERE NEAR WORTH WHAT HE MAKES TO DEAL WITH IT.


Marcus <--- SORRY THAT YOU DON'T LIKE THE APA

No problem Marcus.. if you want to know just ask rather then assume. But comparing the APA with a business like a garage is off track. Not the same thing. And I am sure the LO or yourself has to listen to plenty about handicapping. Then again the APA statem of the 23 rule & it's handicapping is another story in itself. I'm sure the LO makes plenty for his time.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:54 AM
Megan Fox is super hot.

SUPER DOOPER HOTTTTTTT

Marcus <--- HAS SOME MORE PICS FOR HIS NEW SIGNATURE....COMING SOON!

APA LO
05-20-2009, 08:55 AM
Of course the work load isn't similar but are you going to tell me the work load is worth $3800 out of $4800 paid in... well probably you are as you are a LO.

The $3800 out of $4800 isn't accurate. I'm not sure why you keep pointing that out.

You never did say in your first post who you asked for the breakdown. But, I'm willing to bet it wasn't the APA LO in that area. If it was, then the lengthy list of things they pay out for would certainly change the numbers you keep quoting.

Richardson
05-20-2009, 08:57 AM
Our old APA LO would gamble away the league payouts, then tell everyone........Oooopps, sorry.

After a couple of years of this the APA had enough. Sadly alot of people quit in that time.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 08:59 AM
But comparing the APA with a business like a garage is off track. Not the same thing.

WHAT MAKES THIS BUSINESS DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER? MAYBE IF I KNEW WHY YOU THOUGHT IT WAS DIFFERENT, I'D HAVE A DIFFERENT APPRECIATION FOR YOUR OPINION. BUT TO ME, A BUSINESS IS A BUSINESS.


I'm sure the LO makes plenty for his time.


HE SHOULD, IT'S A BUSINESS. THAT'S HOW HE FEEDS HIS FAMILY, AND PAYS HIS BILLS.

.................................................. ..............................................

HERE'S ONE FOR YA....... ABOUT 18 MONTHS AGO, I STARTED A BCA "FRANCHISE" IN MY AREA. I MADE ABOUT A DOLLAR A HEAD, PERE WEEK TO DO THE PAPERWORK/FOR MY TIME. THE PLAYERS FELT IT WAS TO MUCH, AND THE LEAGUE FELL APART.

I THOUGHT DOING IT FOR ONLY A DOLLAR A HEAD WAS MORE THAN GENEROUS, BUT IT WAS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW CHEAP POOLPLAYERS REALLY CAN BE.

Marcus

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 08:59 AM
The $3800 out of $4800 isn't accurate. I'm not sure why you keep pointing that out.

You never did say in your first post who you asked for the breakdown. But, I'm willing to bet it wasn't the APA LO in that area. If it was, then the lengthy list of things they pay out for would certainly change the numbers you keep quoting.

That is what they payback was. The checks don't lie. Yes I know there is other stuff taken out to pay for but the amount taken vs the payback in my opinion is a bit extreme.

APA LO
05-20-2009, 09:13 AM
The checks don't lie. Yes I know there is other stuff taken out to pay for but the amount taken vs the payback in my opinion is a bit extreme.

If you don't want to be perceived as a liar, you can't quote inaccurate information as fact. Plain and simple. If the money paid in went towards many other things that are presented as awards, you can't say that only $1000 of what was paid in was paid out.

Your league does not work the same as APA. APA is an actual business. Yours is something you do for recreation. If someone came to me and asked me to give them pool lessons, I'd probably do it for them for free, much like you run your league. If 5000 people came to me for pool lessons, I would probably not do it for free anymore. I would have to quit my other job, I would have to make schedules and create the time to teach all of these people.

While I respect that you take the time to give back to your pool playing community, I'm sure your tone would change if 1500 people came to you and asked you to run a free 100% payback league for them.

You certainly wouldn't have the time unless you quit your other job. Once you quit your other job, you would probably want to be paid a fair amount for the work you did, right?

whitewolf
05-20-2009, 09:19 AM
From what I understand they aren't very happy but the MAJORITY of the players in that are lured for that FREE trip to Vegas & can't add 2 + 2 anyway. Suckers are born every day I guess... just glad it isn't me.



In case you didn't notice, most of the players don't give a crap about going to Vegas because they realize that it is a super long shot that their little butts will be on the plane anyway. They play in the APA to have fun and get a little competition. And you don't have to be able to add 2 + 2 to figure that out.

If the APA is so bad, why don't you go start your own pool league? In Germantown Md they actually did start a 'Pot of Gold' league or something like that, which returned most of the money to the players. It started out like gangbusters but failed. If you wanted to have a good shot at winning some real cash then this might work for you. But then you would have to start churning out those handicapps and putting up with all of the *****ing all over again. Bottom line: you can't have your cake and eat it too. Sounds like you would do well in weekend tournamenst with small cash prizes.

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 10:00 AM
If you don't want to be perceived as a liar, you can't quote inaccurate information as fact. Plain and simple. If the money paid in went towards many other things that are presented as awards, you can't say that only $1000 of what was paid in was paid out.

Your league does not work the same as APA. APA is an actual business. Yours is something you do for recreation. If someone came to me and asked me to give them pool lessons, I'd probably do it for them for free, much like you run your league. If 5000 people came to me for pool lessons, I would probably not do it for free anymore. I would have to quit my other job, I would have to make schedules and create the time to teach all of these people.

While I respect that you take the time to give back to your pool playing community, I'm sure your tone would change if 1500 people came to you and asked you to run a free 100% payback league for them.

You certainly wouldn't have the time unless you quit your other job. Once you quit your other job, you would probably want to be paid a fair amount for the work you did, right?

#1 I have stated no inaccurate info. I can assure you I am no liar. As I had said the LO has 250+ teams & send 3 in 8ball & 2 in 9ball. You do the math you are an LO. Tell me just where the money goes. They give nothing extra to for the Vegas trip but airfare & hotel. And that is 4 rooms to split among 8 players per team. Other places may do it differently but that is how it is done here. The example I gave is just of a small division. There are many more divisions with much more paid into them to only send that many teams.

#2 I would find a number of people willing to donate the time to keep it at 100% payback is what I would do. I do not agree with taking that much money from the players plain & simple business or no business.

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 10:01 AM
In case you didn't notice, most of the players don't give a crap about going to Vegas because they realize that it is a super long shot that their little butts will be on the plane anyway. They play in the APA to have fun and get a little competition. And you don't have to be able to add 2 + 2 to figure that out.

If the APA is so bad, why don't you go start your own pool league? In Germantown Md they actually did start a 'Pot of Gold' league or something like that, which returned most of the money to the players. It started out like gangbusters but failed. If you wanted to have a good shot at winning some real cash then this might work for you. But then you would have to start churning out those handicapps and putting up with all of the *****ing all over again. Bottom line: you can't have your cake and eat it too. Sounds like you would do well in weekend tournamenst with small cash prizes.

whitewolf for the 3rd time in this thread if you would like to read I do run a small league & do not play the APA.

MikeM
05-20-2009, 10:24 AM
This sounds more like a LO issue not an issue with the APA in general.
Maybe players in your area need to look into the franchise agreement and see if your LO in within guidlines. If he is, than he is one hell of a business man to keep 250 teams going (our local APA is 10% the size of your LO's and we send three teams to Vegas and have 3 money tournaments a year)......they (players) must enjoy playing pool and the company they keep if they keep coming back session after session.....I am sure that is why they play, not just for the possibility of a trip or some cash.

It won't get you anywhere. Maybe when the OP's league gets tired of playing the same three teams over and over and over again, they'll spend some thought about why national leagues are a good thing.

Until then don't wrestle with pigs.

MM

FeltMaster
05-20-2009, 10:44 AM
It won't get you anywhere. Maybe when the OP's league gets tired of playing the same three teams over and over and over again, they'll spend some thought about why national leagues are a good thing.

Until then don't wrestle with pigs.

MM

I read the last few pages just now, this guy doesn't even participate in an APA league. Looks like you did what you wanted and got out. You have stated your opinion, thanks. See, APA is voluntary, you don't have to play.

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 01:43 PM
It won't get you anywhere. Maybe when the OP's league gets tired of playing the same three teams over and over and over again, they'll spend some thought about why national leagues are a good thing.

Until then don't wrestle with pigs.

MM

LOL we have had our league going only a few sessions.. give it a chance to grow boys. Gotta love you APA bit****. Just glad it isn't me donating. And YES the APA IS a ripoff.

MO RIVER POOL
05-20-2009, 02:45 PM
wow big mud puddle here, quit fueling the fire, apparently mongoose thinks the world is all wrong for trying to make a few bucks, my wife/bother in law own a tap league in 2 counties and have an in house league and we bust our asses to get sheets/schedules, handicaps and such done, trophies, plaqes and tourney reservations and flights are a nightmare, not to mention the headaches of complaining and so on. ill take a bet those that do want to volunter only go for a few months, no one and i repeat no one will work for free for ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! let it go, you have very little sympathy, no one cares if you dont like it, you dont even play in it, get your own league full tilt and see if you are wrong or right, i guarantee your 20 minutes of work turns into 15 hrs a week once you have 20 teams or more. we make about enough to pay for a computer for the league and the occasional party to have for our leagues. go figure..... no complaining here just havin fun.

mongoose-
05-20-2009, 02:53 PM
wow big mud puddle here, quit fueling the fire, apparently mongoose thinks the world is all wrong for trying to make a few bucks, my wife/bother in law own a tap league in 2 counties and have an in house league and we bust our asses to get sheets/schedules, handicaps and such done, trophies, plaqes and tourney reservations and flights are a nightmare, not to mention the headaches of complaining and so on. ill take a bet those that do want to volunter only go for a few months, no one and i repeat no one will work for free for ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! let it go, you have very little sympathy, no one cares if you dont like it, you dont even play in it, get your own league full tilt and see if you are wrong or right, i guarantee your 20 minutes of work turns into 15 hrs a week once you have 20 teams or more. we make about enough to pay for a computer for the league and the occasional party to have for our leagues. go figure..... no complaining here just havin fun.

It is simple if ya don't like the headaches & such get a REAL JOB. And I am sure you don't profit with your leagues like the APA does you probably aren't out to fleece your players dry.

MO RIVER POOL
05-21-2009, 06:07 AM
my wife works 45-50 hrs a week and i work that if not more, so get a real job sorry i have plenty. oh also, my wife bartends after shes off at her regular job for her brother, and that of course is after she does all her pool work, so i want to hear a little less of get a real job. thanks,
back to the point, we have similar intake of money as your example, we pay out similar money, were not making dick so, i just dont understand how you assume that the lo makes all this money, we pay lots of other bills with our "profits" like delinquent dues, non paying memebers nightly fees, pool supplies for league ie. paper,chalk, trophies, plaques, and so on. you will figure this out when your league has more than 25 people in it, we have approx 200 in our home bar alone, there is prob another 80-100 in the other bars, step back and look at a real big picture, bigger than mine, you said your apa lo has 250 teams, ill bet his/her week is long and late. do you think its worth making a few bucks per team to do this for a full time living? hell maybe the guy/girl has 3 kids and a house payment, i surley would let him/her have a few bucks extra to put up with my sorry butt 3 times a week for 18 weeks at a time. anyway im outta this,
""""you cant win an argument with an unreasonable person, most people are unreasonable""""
""dont argue""
thanks for letting me share my thoughts ;-)

CocoboloCowboy
05-21-2009, 02:30 PM
NOT YOU IN PARTICULAR, BUT GROUPS OF GUYS LIKE YOU, ARE THE REASON THERE IS NO MONEY IN POOL. IF YOU AREN'T WILLING TO SPEND ANY MONEY, THE SPORT DOESN'T GENERATE MONEY.







FAST_N_LOOSE I think you are 50% but I think 85% of pool Players are “B” or “C” Players, and the one thing iI do not understand these people as a group spend money on, be it during recreation play, league play, or tournament play on Beer & Alcoholic beverages in the Bar/Sports Bars, and Pool Rooms that serve alcohol.

Here is Arizona the alcohol industry does not support pool from what I see except may Anheuser-Busch putting up a sign with a bottle of bud say “join a pool league”. but the pool Player sure support Anheuser-Busch.

frankncali
05-21-2009, 03:04 PM
FAST_N_LOOSE I think you are 50% but I think 85% of pool Players are “B” or “C” Players, and the one thing iI do not understand these people as a group spend money on, be it during recreation play, league play, or tournament play on Beer & Alcoholic beverages in the Bar/Sports Bars, and Pool Rooms that serve alcohol.

Here is Arizona the alcohol industry does not support pool from what I see except may Anheuser-Busch putting up a sign with a bottle of bud say “join a pool league”. but the pool Player sure support Anheuser-Busch.

This is the attitude that has gotten mens pro pool where it is today. When Mackey stood there and told players that the industries would come after them and that they should not bow down to any of them its the same.
The industries that pool players support do not OWE pool or its players anything. We are small and have NOTHING to offer. Now the APA has been sponsored by the beverage industry a few times. THEY have something to offer and even then sponsorship has not been steady. That should tell everyone something.

Pool players need to realise that we are a super small subculture in terms of attractiveness. Now if WE, the pool community, had something to offer like a long running and well supported tour and unity then our attractiveness would skyrocket.

I also want to make it clear that I use the term, POOL PLAYER, for guys like all of us here and the minority of pool players that take the game more seriously than others. The MAJORITY of pool is played by individuals who get something totally different from the game than "pool players" do.

Jason Robichaud
05-21-2009, 05:00 PM
I posted here this morning and it is gone... Did I post something out of line and do they warn you if so?

CreeDo
05-21-2009, 06:37 PM
Jason: I haven't heard of a specific post getting quietly nuked by mods, and if they can do that they'd prolly tell you.

Maybe you did it in the other thread ("Not a rip off")?

Or you thought it went through but it didn't? Forgot to click the button or clicked it but the site timed out? Anyways... wouldn't sweat it.

CocoboloCowboy
05-22-2009, 07:37 AM
This is the attitude that has gotten mens pro pool where it is today. When Mackey stood there and told players that the industries would come after them and that they should not bow down to any of them its the same.
The industries that pool players support do not OWE pool or its players anything. We are small and have NOTHING to offer. Now the APA has been sponsored by the beverage industry a few times. THEY have something to offer and even then sponsorship has not been steady. That should tell everyone something.

Pool players need to realise that we are a super small subculture in terms of attractiveness. Now if WE, the pool community, had something to offer like a long running and well supported tour and unity then our attractiveness would skyrocket.

I also want to make it clear that I use the term, POOL PLAYER, for guys like all of us here and the minority of pool players that take the game more seriously than others. The MAJORITY of pool is played by individuals who get something totally different from the game than "pool players" do.


Again I will say 1/2 right, and maybe I will add one more thing to the MIX, Pool Players might be a SMALL MARKET for say Anheuser-Busch, but if Pool Player stopped drinking Anheuser-Busch, and switched to Miller or Coors Products when they go to play recreationally, league, or tournament play. Do you think it would get the attention of the local Anheuser-Busch distributor?

Here is the Valley of the Sun we have (2) Anheuser-Busch (Franchisees) Hensley (McCain's Wife), and Golden Eagle. I had actually asked the Promotion person at Golden Eagle years ago when they did noting for Pool.

The answer surprise me in that it all start with the Room/Bar/Sports Bar Owner asking their Anheuser-Busch Salesman for support or sponsorship. Than apparently than the salesmen goes to the Promotions Manger, and the Promotions Manger sees what they can do. The person I talked to at Golden Eagle said they had had NO REQUEST FROM BAR OWNER to support pool.

In fairness to Golden Eagle they have only a very small pert of the Valley of the Sun, and that part is the Western End, where few Pool Bars are located!

As I understand it BCA has 60,000 League PLAYERS, playing in pool League at any point in time weekly. I sure would love to have a $.10/Beer they drink weekly during league!

stikapos
05-22-2009, 08:29 AM
Again I will say 1/2 right, and maybe I will add one more thing to the MIX, Pool Players might be a SMALL MARKET for say Anheuser-Busch, but if Pool Player stopped drinking Anheuser-Busch, and switched to Miller or Coors Products when they go to play recreationally, league, or tournament play. Do you think it would get the attention of the local Anheuser-Busch distributor?

Here is the Valley of the Sun we have (2) Anheuser-Busch (Franchisees) Hensley (McCain's Wife), and Golden Eagle. I had actually asked the Promotion person at Golden Eagle years ago when they did noting for Pool.

The answer surprise me in that it all start with the Room/Bar/Sports Bar Owner asking their Anheuser-Busch Salesman for support or sponsorship. Than apparently than the salesmen goes to the Promotions Manger, and the Promotions Manger sees what they can do. The person I talked to at Golden Eagle said they had had NO REQUEST FROM BAR OWNER to support pool.

In fairness to Golden Eagle they have only a very small pert of the Valley of the Sun, and that part is the Western End, where few Pool Bars are located!

As I understand it BCA has 60,000 League PLAYERS, playing in pool League at any point in time weekly. I sure would love to have a $.10/Beer they drink weekly during league!
Leaping Lizards, CB! Just a tension breaker, had to be done. LOL. Isn't the deal here that leagues are just a fill in to a bar's overhead ? I'm not a firm believer in booze advertising anyway, but it not like there will be a huge decrement in a company's profits if pool players do or do not buy a brewer's products, is it ? Now, if you could get exclusives at the APA Regionals and Finals, that might be the ticket. Unfortunatly, what might have to be done is for players and league officials to take an action like not drinking busch products for a month at league in order to demonstrate the impact of leagues on the bottom line of bud. It would be a strain, but I think I could find enough russian rocket fuel to get me through a night's matches.

best,
tim

frankncali
05-22-2009, 11:18 AM
Again I will say 1/2 right, and maybe I will add one more thing to the MIX, Pool Players might be a SMALL MARKET for say Anheuser-Busch, but if Pool Player stopped drinking Anheuser-Busch, and switched to Miller or Coors Products when they go to play recreationally, league, or tournament play. Do you think it would get the attention of the local Anheuser-Busch distributor?

Here is the Valley of the Sun we have (2) Anheuser-Busch (Franchisees) Hensley (McCain's Wife), and Golden Eagle. I had actually asked the Promotion person at Golden Eagle years ago when they did noting for Pool.

The answer surprise me in that it all start with the Room/Bar/Sports Bar Owner asking their Anheuser-Busch Salesman for support or sponsorship. Than apparently than the salesmen goes to the Promotions Manger, and the Promotions Manger sees what they can do. The person I talked to at Golden Eagle said they had had NO REQUEST FROM BAR OWNER to support pool.

In fairness to Golden Eagle they have only a very small pert of the Valley of the Sun, and that part is the Western End, where few Pool Bars are located!

As I understand it BCA has 60,000 League PLAYERS, playing in pool League at any point in time weekly. I sure would love to have a $.10/Beer they drink weekly during league!


I totally understand where you are coming from but it becuase I have been there. I have gotten small amounts of money and discount for pool tourneys in the past but nothing within the last 8-10 years.

Its still very simple... we lack numbers. If all the pool players stopped drinking for a month I dont think any distributor would notice. And its simply due to numbers.

We cant count every individual that plays pool in our group and in the proposed boycott. Most would simply not play pool and head to a bar to drink. They would play trivia or darts or shuffleboard. Pool is not important to most. Now if we take the true pool players and had them boycott the beer distributors would not even get a blip on the radar.

Most of the time pool players and pool room owners dont have a legit plan or event setup for a distributor to profit from either monetarily or from exposure. There are many other avenues available to them that would be a better fit for their advertising dollars than a one or two day event where
50 might show up and 25 of them are going to buy one coke or ask for a glass of water.

PS-- I wish they would do more but its just not there. Right now I have been talking here in SoCal about some sponsorship for a Blues Festival I am having. Its amazing how different the responses are for this rather than a pool tourney.

Joel Chue
05-25-2009, 08:32 AM
I played APA for 23 years, I played because I love the game ,I played BCA, and Valley also. Not all area's are as bad as stated .having played for that many years I know what players have issues with. We just started being League operators,and it is a lot of work. I work a full time job other than the league, The League is my passion not my lively hood. ,far from it.5-10 years from now maybe. try working your jobs for virtually nothing and see how long you survive. The main thing with the leagues are: Are you having Fun? Do you enjoy shooting Pool, I agree with a few of the posters. DO Not Trash The league, If you do not like it do not play.Funny thing is The APA is THE WORLD"S LARGEST POOL LEAGUE AND PAYS OUT OVER $1,500,000.00 at their National Tournaments.Over 250,000 members.How many people play in tournaments and never never CASH out? The APA is for everyone to have fun and play.with the equalizer handicap system, and brings more people into playing the game.Other leagues are for mainly the upper echelon players, without the others players pool halls and local bars will not survive in todays economy. Needless to say If you do not like it Do not play, BUT DO NOT BASH SOMETHING THAT IS HELPING THE GAME.!