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View Full Version : APA is not a Ripoff


TWOFORPOOL
05-19-2009, 10:23 PM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.

mikeyfrost
05-19-2009, 10:46 PM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep you money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.

Speak it brother...greenie!

dogginda9
05-19-2009, 11:00 PM
I enjoy the APA for a variety of reasons. It is not the devil it is made out to be sometimes. It may not be for everyone, but it has its place in the pool world.

cbi1000
05-19-2009, 11:35 PM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.


I agree, different leagues have different pros and cons. The biggest con of the APA is the payout, however, i'm like you, i do it for the fun and not the pay.

Craig

obrien714
05-20-2009, 12:04 AM
i joined 2 apa teams and was told i needed to sandbag,, i refused and quit...


apa is for cheaters,,

PAt

rbpwrd240
05-20-2009, 02:01 AM
I hate APA, I can always tell the APA player from the APA player that sandbags. The APA player looks like an amature and the APA sand bagger looks like a BCA player. I play BCA. Just my .02 cents. As far as payment It would be nice to see good players make a living at pool. However in todays world it is very difficult.

cookie man
05-20-2009, 04:03 AM
[QUOTE=rbpwrd240;1829640]. The APA player looks like an amature and the APA sand bagger looks like a BCA player. I play BCA.
So BCA players are cheaters?

catscradle
05-20-2009, 04:21 AM
i joined 2 apa teams and was told i needed to sandbag,, i refused and quit...


apa is for cheaters,,

PAt

That is a valid point, but a much different one than the original whine about the payouts.

MOJOE
05-20-2009, 05:31 AM
I'm a realistic guy too. I play pool in leagues because I enjoy the friendships that come about and I LOVE to play the game. If I was doing it for the money, I'd be living on the streets. I don't play in leagues to make a profit, often I get back more than I put in but that is just a bonus to me, not my motivation to play.

Do I like APA? NO, but that's not what this is about.. I find it hard to take being run out 3 consecutive racks by a SL3, when I am a 7 but would not mind another 6 or 7 doing it to me.. I was too told that I need to sandbag, which I politely refuse to do. Integrity is more important to me than a few more bucks and a plastic trophy that collects dust. That's why I like the BCA and VNEA, and we have AA leagues in my area for the competetive players, which I like a lot.

IMHO, league operators are in it to make a profit, I believe it must be a lot of work and I would not want to deal with the headaches of all of the beyotching and moaning. That's my take on it, no whining from me!

BryanBpool
05-20-2009, 05:36 AM
i joined 2 apa teams and was told i needed to sandbag,, i refused and quit...


apa is for cheaters,,

PAt

That is a problem with your TEAM CAPTAIN, not the league.

Any handicapped league will have sandbaggers.

My team does not sandbag.

Hierovision
05-20-2009, 05:42 AM
APA discourages improvement.

APA is for casual players not looking to get better, but to enjoy the social scene while banging balls around.

APA Masters is for players and is a pretty sweet deal if you find one that stays at one good pool hall instead of travelling.

BCA is better than APA Masters (at least in the VA Beach area) because it pays better and offers a higher caliber of competition.

APA=Mostly social
BCA=Mostly competitive

Pick your preference.

pooltchr
05-20-2009, 05:55 AM
IMHO, league operators are in it to make a profit, I believe it must be a lot of work and I would not want to deal with the headaches of all of the beyotching and moaning. That's my take on it, no whining from me!

Just look at all the complaining about APA that goes on right here. Now imagine what kind of crap a LO has to put up with. In my opinion, they probably don't make enough. But I'm glad we have someone in our area who is willing to do it!

Steve

Maniac
05-20-2009, 06:22 AM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.

I can't seem to stay out of these APA threads. But anyhow, here's my take:

IMO, the APA is not a ripoff. What it is though is a league for the less-serious minded pool players of varying skill levels to get out of the house for an evening or two to socialize with friends all the while enjoying a pastime/hobby/sport that they love. My wife and I have immensely enjoyed the APA leagues that we have been a part of. We have made lots of friends, some of which we see outside of the poolroom/bar. We watch far less television and spend less time in our reclining chairs. The APA is not a league for the hard-core player expecting to profit from his or her success. Yes, there is the "chance" to go to Vegas, but other than that (and I for one don't give a rats-ass if I ever go to Vegas) the only thing a successful player can expect is a buttload of patches and a small payout for a division MVP award. The APA does serve a purpose for the beginning player or one whose skill level hasn't reached (or may never reach) their full potential. I do not at this time play in a more competive league, but at some time in the future I want to. But I will still play in an APA league with my wife and friends for a more relaxing experience and still get some decent table time. The APA is not for everyone. Yes, there is sandbagging, but look me in the eye and tell me other leagues don't have sandbaggers. What about road players/hustlers? Isn't their success based on the fact that they have to sandbag (i.e. "hustle") to make money?The APA is not a perfect system. It will not put food on your table nor will it pad your wallet. It's all about the fun baby, and if you're not having fun, then don't play in it. There are certainly other choices out there (none of which are perfect systems either btw). The APA has a place in the pool scene. It is basically just the first stepping stone into the pool league lifestyle. Some move on, others don't and never will. Six bucks per match and a handful of quarters for the boxes (barbox and jukebox), plus a sawbuck or two for a few Crown Royal's and Corona's, all for a night of enjoyment and fun IMO does not amount to a "rip-off".

Maniac

Icon of Sin
05-20-2009, 06:54 AM
I play APA and I am starting to enjoy it less and less each day. The constant rule book thumpers. The bad sportsmanship and sharking whether it is intentional or whether the opposing team or player is too ignorant to know what they are doing is wrong. The horrible playing conditions at certain hosting locations. The unending hipocrasy from local league offices regarding banned players and reinstated players. The sandbagging. The rating system that would work great if there wasn't sandbaggers.

I'm a 7 in apa 8ball and I go from between a 7 and 8 in apa 9ball. While that is good for league standards, it's just mediocre when it comes to real pool. The only reason I continue to play in league is that it's only 7 bucks that night if I shoot and it's decent competition. I can't afford to quit league and play for money all the time. Sure I will come out ahead sometimes, but most of the time I will come out behind.

So I stay in the apa just for the cheap competition. I'm not sure how much longer that will last. If I get a trip to vegas out of it, then great. Sure I put enough money into the league to pay for a trip at least 3 times, but i dont look at it that way. Where else can you play someone of your caliber who most of the time is really trying to win for their team and for only 7 bucks other then TAP or BCA?

Along the lines of the other 2 leagues. Our local BCA league has worse sportsmanship then the APA, and the TAP has player skill levels so ****ed up that you would be better off just making the entire league even races. In our area, the APA is the better of all 3 evils and it still isn't great.

So to sum up. I dont consider the APA a rip-off because Im getting out of it exactly what I want to.

poolfoole
05-20-2009, 06:56 AM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK!


That was never part of the deal to begin with, so it's irrelevant to how the APA works.


These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!!


The movie industry is robbing people by mass plagiarism. Almost every movie made nowadays is a plagiarized remake of something. This has nothing to do with the APA, but I just felt like getting that in. The APA is also robbing people by taking in a lot of revenue and giving back a very small percentage of what they take in.

The APA basically is a pyramid scheme with its 23 rule. It's impossible to keep a 8 player team together for long, as it forces teams to split up and start new teams. The pyramid scheme part has nothing to do with the movie industry analogy.


Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.


I don't think the majority of the money goes back to the originators of one of these plagiarized remakes like the latest Star Trek movie. How much is William Shatner getting? How much are the original Star Trek originators getting? The stakeholders of course are making a lot of money. There was never ever any claim or agreement that you were going to get any money just for purchasing a movie ticket. Therefore, it's irrelevant to your APA analogy. The APA does not give back the majority of its revenue back to the originators/investors, that being the league players who pay their weekly and annual dues. Your analogy seems pointless.



Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room?


The same reason 1st place in a tournament pays more than 4th place or 8th place. The same reason that that if you pay $100 buy in and finish in the money, you expect more back than if you pay $10 buy in and finish in the money. The same reason that if you gamble and bet $100 on yourself, you expect to get back more than if you bet $10 on yourself.


If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.

I play in the APA too, and it is fun and entertaining. $6 to $10 per week is a pretty low entertainment expense too. I don't do it for the money either, but the APA is awfully greedy in how much money they take in compared to how much they give back. This is one of the major complaints that people have about the APA.

Spimp13
05-20-2009, 07:15 AM
I play APA and I am starting to enjoy it less and less each day. The constant rule book thumpers. The bad sportsmanship and sharking whether it is intentional or whether the opposing team or player is too ignorant to know what they are doing is wrong. The horrible playing conditions at certain hosting locations. The unending hipocrasy from local league offices regarding banned players and reinstated players. The sandbagging. The rating system that would work great if there wasn't sandbaggers.

I'm a 7 in apa 8ball and I go from between a 7 and 8 in apa 9ball. While that is good for league standards, it's just mediocre when it comes to real pool. The only reason I continue to play in league is that it's only 7 bucks that night if I shoot and it's decent competition. I can't afford to quit league and play for money all the time. Sure I will come out ahead sometimes, but most of the time I will come out behind.

So I stay in the apa just for the cheap competition. I'm not sure how much longer that will last. If I get a trip to vegas out of it, then great. Sure I put enough money into the league to pay for a trip at least 3 times, but i dont look at it that way. Where else can you play someone of your caliber who most of the time is really trying to win for their team and for only 7 bucks other then TAP or BCA?

Along the lines of the other 2 leagues. Our local BCA league has worse sportsmanship then the APA, and the TAP has player skill levels so ****ed up that you would be better off just making the entire league even races. In our area, the APA is the better of all 3 evils and it still isn't great.

So to sum up. I dont consider the APA a rip-off because Im getting out of it exactly what I want to.

I would have to agree with you on this for the most part except for "the rating system that would work great if it wasn't for sandbaggers". I think it is very difficult to come up with a handicap system that is fair and allow people to stay together for a long time unless you have a team of nothing but between 2-5 handicaps. APA does promote growth and gets teams to split to start new teams with this handicap system. How well do you really have to shoot to be a 5 or even higher in APA? It is nice to be able to have 8 players on a team to help neutralize the handicap system, but even then it is hard to shoot a "strong team" good enough to go to vegas when people are worried about dumping to keep their handicaps down. APA is more of a for fun league, meet people, compete on a friendly level, and to try to get the free or cheap trip to Vegas...I get that. If this is the purpose a player is looking for when playing in league then yes APA is not a rip off because it is fairly cheap to play...but if I want to play with 5-6 other friends and we can't because our handicaps don't meet the 23 it makes it tough to want to really play in the league that is hard to play in and keep teams together.

maldito
05-20-2009, 07:31 AM
[QUOTE=rbpwrd240;1829640]. The APA player looks like an amature and the APA sand bagger looks like a BCA player. I play BCA.
So BCA players are cheaters?

I dont' think he implied that BCA players are cheaters but that sandbager looks like a better player .

APA LO
05-20-2009, 08:11 AM
The APA basically is a pyramid scheme with its 23 rule.

This is flawed logic. I won't call it flawed logic to the level of Mongoose giving us a breakdown of APA prize money when he doesn't even play APA, but it is flawed.

The 23 rule is not how APA grows. APA grows because host locations want this type of business in their establishments. The APA grows because people who play APA go to work and brag about how much fun they had last night. The APA grows because people walk into the bar and see all the fun people are having. That's what makes the league really grow.

Now, people do go up in skill level. Everyone is generally going to get better over time. That's not a bad thing. But, the 23 rule was created to allow EVERYONE to be able to enjoy a pool league, not just good players.

As an LO, I make roster adjustments just about every day. The new teams joining my league are not teams split in two because of handicaps. More often than not, they are all brand new players or maybe someone who wants to play on another night and they grab some other people.

Teams with handicap issues typically replace one or two players with lower skilled players. The replaced players usually find teams with handicap space. In some instances, the replaced players might form a new team, but it's pretty rare. If I relied on that as my only growth, I wouldn't grow much.

The 23 rule is there for the lower skilled player to be able to play. The 23 rule forces teams to play the lower skilled players. And that makes sense since close to 70% of the APA is made up of players with skill levels of 4 or lower. The 23 rule currently allows these line ups:

77333
55553
55544
66632
76542

And a whole lot of other combinations. If your team has gotten to the point that you can't meet the 23 rule anymore, you are going to have to make some changes. Here are the realistic options:

A) replace a higher skilled player(s) with a lower skilled player(s)
B) Split the team in half (which also requires finding 6 to 8 more players to fill out those two teams)
C) Drop the team

I'd venture to guess teams choose A) 95 times out of 100. Why? Because someone typically drops off the team each session anyway. As popular as I was as a team captain many years ago, there wasn't a single session that went by where I wasn't replacing someone. School, work, babysitter issues, girlfriend/boyfriend and husband/wife spats, etc... I don't have enough space to give all the reasons people stop playing, but when someone drops, you simply find a replacement and you move on.

This is why the 23 rule being a pyramid scheme is flawed logic. It's simply not true. It would be awesome for me if teams did split every time someone went up in skill level, but it just doesn't happen that way.

pooltchr
05-20-2009, 08:12 AM
I play in the APA too, and it is fun and entertaining. $6 to $10 per week is a pretty low entertainment expense too. I don't do it for the money either, but the APA is awfully greedy in how much money they take in compared to how much they give back. This is one of the major complaints that people have about the APA.

The question is WHY? Why would you pay $50 to go to an NFL game if there was no chance of getting any or all of it back? Entertainment value!

Why would you pay hundreds to take the family to Disney World if there was no chance of getting any of it back? Entertainment value!

Why do you pay $12 for a movie ticket if there is no chance of getting any of it back?

Why is it that we think that the pool industry owes us something? They are providing a service and offering a source of entertainment. If you don't find it entertaining, don't pay. But don't expect they should pay you to participate. You aren't providing a service to them, they are providing one to you! If you get something back, consider it a bonus. You are paying for the entertainment.

Steve

APA Gene
05-20-2009, 08:17 AM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.

Amen, brother. Maybe if all those complainers would just quit the rest of us could continue to enjoy ourselves? After all they are probably the sandbaggers as well! rep to ya.

CreeDo
05-20-2009, 08:19 AM
Sandbagging - No handicapping method is sandbag-proof. People say it happens more in APA than in other leagues... maybe that's true. But there's no reason it can't happen in a BCA or VNEA league. You can't rag on the league for TRYING... even if it's not foolproof. None of them are.

Nobody at the top of the food chain does anything to encourage it. If individual LO's let is slide or individual captains encourage it... well, lazy or dishonest people are everywhere. If they weren't in the really huge popular league... guess where they'd be? In your local BCA, TAP, or VNEA league probably.

Not getting back as much money as promised: if the league makes a specific promise and goes back on it, or uses really deceptive wording in their ads... that's a legit complaint. I'm talking about stuff that's so clear-cut that you could file a lawsuit with it. If people are generally complaining because the BCA 'hypes up' vegas or whatever... quit whining, welcome to marketing. Detractors make it sound like a bunch of poor starry-eyed optimists are getting duped by false promises. They aren't. The average league player has done it before and knows what to expect (despite mongoose's situation).
Here's what they promise:

At the national level, the APA guarantees more than $1 million in national tournament prize money. This consists of the $500,00 APA 8-Ball National Team Championships, the $250,000 APA 8-Ball Classic, the $100,000 APA 9-Ball National Team Championship, the $100,000 APA 9-Ball Shootout, and the MiniMania tournaments, which paid nearly $220,000 during the 2007 National Team Championships.

Pretty straightforward to me. Nowhere does it claim this is 100%, 90%, or even 20% of the total money they take in. Nowhere does it claim you personally are going to have a good shot at this money. It's just a few simple facts that you can take at face value.

Pyramid scheme: As far as I know, I pay the same dues no matter WHOSE team I'm on. Me being forced to move doesn't generate any extra money, unless there's some team switching tax I'm not aware of. I pay the same 7 dollars a week whether I'm on the same team as last year or not. If you have 50 people, you are going to have 10 5-man teams no matter how they get rearranged.

Be intelligent people. You could argue the 23 limit actually costs the APA money in the short run. Does the APA want to break up regular teams who are a guaranteed steady source of income year after year? Would they really rather risk having people quit because they got 'too good'? Or because they can't play with their friends? Or because one guy got kicked off the team, and now the team is incomplete, and they never manage to work out a replacement so the leftover members can't play this year without a full team?

The APA doesn't want to risk any of these things happening, as these things cost them money (in the short term). In the long term though, it makes them money... amateurs sign up knowing they can get to play with strong players, and won't be the baby seals who get clubbed by a few powerhouse teams. Making amateurs feel welcome brings in more players and more players = more money. That's the only reasoning behind the 23 rule, and there's nothing wrong with it. The fresh amateurs are happy, and they far outnumber the 7's who decide to quit because of the 23 limit.

Roger Long
05-20-2009, 08:30 AM
i joined 2 apa teams and was told i needed to sandbag,, i refused and quit...


apa is for cheaters,,

PAt

There are cheaters wherever you go. The APA didn't invent them.

Roger

poolfoole
05-20-2009, 08:34 AM
The question is WHY? Why would you pay $50 to go to an NFL game if there was no chance of getting any or all of it back? Entertainment value!

Why would you pay hundreds to take the family to Disney World if there was no chance of getting any of it back? Entertainment value!

Why do you pay $12 for a movie ticket if there is no chance of getting any of it back?

Why is it that we think that the pool industry owes us something? They are providing a service and offering a source of entertainment. If you don't find it entertaining, don't pay. But don't expect they should pay you to participate. You aren't providing a service to them, they are providing one to you! If you get something back, consider it a bonus. You are paying for the entertainment.

Steve

I understand the concept of paying for entertainment. In your examples, there's no expectation of getting any money back because they are 100% entertainment ventures. In league pool, however, a player pays weekly and annual dues for the privilege of membership and match play. There are prizes awarded to winning teams. The prizes are an incentive for most of the league players, who are not there purely for entertainment purposes, contrary to your examples. The way I see it, the APA takes in lots of revenue from its members, and gives very little back. The members are the reason the league exists. The APA doesn't give a damn about its members, which is the reason why they take in so much and give back so little. If they actually cared about their members, they would be way more generous in the prizes that they award, since league members care about prizes.

I predict you're probably going to hit me with the following questions: Well, if you don't like it, why do you even play in the APA. Why don't you play in another pool league? I would, but there are no other established pool leagues in town that can compete with the APA. TAP league only has 2 or 3 divisions, and BCA has a hand full of in house leagues and that's about all there is to choose from.

Spimp13
05-20-2009, 08:37 AM
This is flawed logic. I won't call it flawed logic to the level of Mongoose giving us a breakdown of APA prize money when he doesn't even play APA, but it is flawed.

The 23 rule is not how APA grows. APA grows because host locations want this type of business in their establishments. The APA grows because people who play APA go to work and brag about how much fun they had last night. The APA grows because people walk into the bar and see all the fun people are having. That's what makes the league really grow.

Now, people do go up in skill level. Everyone is generally going to get better over time. That's not a bad thing. But, the 23 rule was created to allow EVERYONE to be able to enjoy a pool league, not just good players.

As an LO, I make roster adjustments just about every day. The new teams joining my league are not teams split in two because of handicaps. More often than not, they are all brand new players or maybe someone who wants to play on another night and they grab some other people.

Teams with handicap issues typically replace one or two players with lower skilled players. The replaced players usually find teams with handicap space. In some instances, the replaced players might form a new team, but it's pretty rare. If I relied on that as my only growth, I wouldn't grow much.

The 23 rule is there for the lower skilled player to be able to play. The 23 rule forces teams to play the lower skilled players. And that makes sense since close to 70% of the APA is made up of players with skill levels of 4 or lower. The 23 rule currently allows these line ups:

77333
55553
55544
66632
76542

And a whole lot of other combinations. If your team has gotten to the point that you can't meet the 23 rule anymore, you are going to have to make some changes. Here are the realistic options:

A) replace a higher skilled player(s) with a lower skilled player(s)
B) Split the team in half (which also requires finding 6 to 8 more players to fill out those two teams)
C) Drop the team

I'd venture to guess teams choose A) 95 times out of 100. Why? Because someone typically drops off the team each session anyway. As popular as I was as a team captain many years ago, there wasn't a single session that went by where I wasn't replacing someone. School, work, babysitter issues, girlfriend/boyfriend and husband/wife spats, etc... I don't have enough space to give all the reasons people stop playing, but when someone drops, you simply find a replacement and you move on.

This is why the 23 rule being a pyramid scheme is flawed logic. It's simply not true. It would be awesome for me if teams did split every time someone went up in skill level, but it just doesn't happen that way.

Your idea isn't a bad one except for teams that are a group of friends that want to play together to try to go to Vegas. Which guy/girl are you going to tell them they get the boot? What if your best person 6/7 is the nuts and you would be foolish to get rid of them if you want to compete and win, especially in higher level play? Then you go down to the next lower person but wait, you have 2 (5s). Which one goes? If you don't think someone is going to get pissed for getting the boot then you are high as a kite UNLESS everyone is under the same assumption that this can happen at the beginning of the season and the captain will make this decision and everyone should not play if this could be an issue. If this is the case then tally ho and good luck. As for option B it could work if the friends once again don't mind splitting up even though the whole idea was to play together to begin with...now who plays with who? I can easily see argument or problems on how this is broken out whether it be I want to play with this person or this foursome has a better chance to succeed then our foursome...Option C is pretty much giving up, time to play Tap I guess lol. You can argue the 23 is a good # or bad # to use...

Guerra Cues
05-20-2009, 08:41 AM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.

I agree with you 500% Bob!:eek::eek:

Richardson
05-20-2009, 08:41 AM
The replaced players usually find teams with handicap space. In some instances, the replaced players might form a new team, but it's pretty rare.

So in other words, teams have to split up because they need handicap room. Thanks for clearing that up.

EDIT: and alot of teams choose the option; we will sandbag so our team isnt forced to split up.

poolfoole
05-20-2009, 08:56 AM
This is flawed logic.... The 23 rule is not how APA grows.


The hell it isn't. Teams split up all the time, and people are forced to bring in their wives, girlfriends, mothers, grandmothers, brothers, sisters, and any other low skill level player they can exclusively because of the 23 rule. These are often people who would not otherwise even be playing in the league.


APA grows because host locations want this type of business in their establishments. The APA grows because people who play APA go to work and brag about how much fun they had last night. The APA grows because people walk into the bar and see all the fun people are having. That's what makes the league really grow.


These factors all contribute to league growth as well.

Now, people do go up in skill level. Everyone is generally going to get better over time. That's not a bad thing. But, the 23 rule was created to allow EVERYONE to be able to enjoy a pool league, not just good players.

As an LO, I make roster adjustments just about every day. The new teams joining my league are not teams split in two because of handicaps. More often than not, they are all brand new players or maybe someone who wants to play on another night and they grab some other people.



Teams with handicap issues typically replace one or two players with lower skilled players. The replaced players usually find teams with handicap space. In some instances, the replaced players might form a new team, but it's pretty rare. If I relied on that as my only growth, I wouldn't grow much.

The 23 rule is there for the lower skilled player to be able to play. The 23 rule forces teams to play the lower skilled players. And that makes sense since close to 70% of the APA is made up of players with skill levels of 4 or lower. The 23 rule currently allows these line ups:

77333
55553
55544
66632
76542

And a whole lot of other combinations. If your team has gotten to the point that you can't meet the 23 rule anymore, you are going to have to make some changes. Here are the realistic options:

A) replace a higher skilled player(s) with a lower skilled player(s)
B) Split the team in half (which also requires finding 6 to 8 more players to fill out those two teams)
C) Drop the team



Option A and B are really 1 in the same as are why it's a pyramid scheme, for reasons that I elaborated on earlier. It's impossible to keep a team with the 23 rule if you have any high skill level players at all. I'm a SL7, so I know this well.


I'd venture to guess teams choose A) 95 times out of 100.


This is a lie. Just traight propaganda from an APA LO.


Why? Because someone typically drops off the team each session anyway. As popular as I was as a team captain many years ago, there wasn't a single session that went by where I wasn't replacing someone. School, work, babysitter issues, girlfriend/boyfriend and husband/wife spats, etc... I don't have enough space to give all the reasons people stop playing, but when someone drops, you simply find a replacement and you move on.


I agree there are many other reasons for roster changes that have to do nothing with the 23 rule.


This is why the 23 rule being a pyramid scheme is flawed logic. It's simply not true. It would be awesome for me if teams did split every time someone went up in skill level, but it just doesn't happen that way.

The 23 rule is a fundamental reason for new player recruitment for players who would not otherwise join.

Scott Lee
05-20-2009, 08:57 AM
deleted...double post

Scott Lee
05-20-2009, 08:58 AM
This is a great post, and accurately reflects how the APA is. Are there shoddy league operators within the APA? I'm sure there are. There are also thieves that run other pool leagues too. Fortunately, the majority are upfront, who do a good job, no matter what league they run. I really believe that it is the same group of 'crybabies' that complain about the APA over and over again...EVERY time they get the opportunity...and if the opportunity doesn't come quick enough, they start another thread. It is, after all, quite simple. If you don't like the APA, DON'T PLAY IN THE APA (and if you don't play, you have no room to b*tch about it...unless you just like to complain). Apparently there are more than a quarter MILLION league players who must like it, since the APA's numbers do not go down, but actually go up! The majority of the posts on this thread, imo, accurately reflect the b.s. attitude that poolplayers are OWED something, just for playing. That is nonsense. Show me a business, ANY business, who does it just for the love of it (and makes no profit), and that person will be out of business in short order. Yet in every poolroom, the players expect everything to be free, to spend no money out of their own pocket, and for the room owner to hold huge tournaments (and don't forget to add plenty of $$$). No wonder rooms are closing left and right...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Sandbagging - No handicapping method is sandbag-proof. People say it happens more in APA than in other leagues... maybe that's true. But there's no reason it can't happen in a BCA or VNEA league. You can't rag on the league for TRYING... even if it's not foolproof. None of them are.

Nobody at the top of the food chain does anything to encourage it. If individual LO's let is slide or individual captains encourage it... well, lazy or dishonest people are everywhere. If they weren't in the really huge popular league... guess where they'd be? In your local BCA, TAP, or VNEA league probably.

Not getting back as much money as promised: if the league makes a specific promise and goes back on it, or uses really deceptive wording in their ads... that's a legit complaint. I'm talking about stuff that's so clear-cut that you could file a lawsuit with it. If people are generally complaining because the BCA 'hypes up' vegas or whatever... quit whining, welcome to marketing. Detractors make it sound like a bunch of poor starry-eyed optimists are getting duped by false promises. They aren't. The average league player has done it before and knows what to expect (despite mongoose's situation).
Here's what they promise:


Pretty straightforward to me. Nowhere does it claim this is 100%, 90%, or even 20% of the total money they take in. Nowhere does it claim you personally are going to have a good shot at this money. It's just a few simple facts that you can take at face value.

Pyramid scheme: As far as I know, I pay the same dues no matter WHOSE team I'm on. Me being forced to move doesn't generate any extra money, unless there's some team switching tax I'm not aware of. I pay the same 7 dollars a week whether I'm on the same team as last year or not. If you have 50 people, you are going to have 10 5-man teams no matter how they get rearranged.

Be intelligent people. You could argue the 23 limit actually costs the APA money in the short run. Does the APA want to break up regular teams who are a guaranteed steady source of income year after year? Would they really rather risk having people quit because they got 'too good'? Or because they can't play with their friends? Or because one guy got kicked off the team, and now the team is incomplete, and they never manage to work out a replacement so the leftover members can't play this year without a full team?

The APA doesn't want to risk any of these things happening, as these things cost them money (in the short term). In the long term though, it makes them money... amateurs sign up knowing they can get to play with strong players, and won't be the baby seals who get clubbed by a few powerhouse teams. Making amateurs feel welcome brings in more players and more players = more money. That's the only reasoning behind the 23 rule, and there's nothing wrong with it. The fresh amateurs are happy, and they far outnumber the 7's who decide to quit because of the 23 limit.

magnetardo
05-20-2009, 09:08 AM
You allow this lineup in your league?

The 23 rule is there for the lower skilled player to be able to play. The 23 rule forces teams to play the lower skilled players. And that makes sense since close to 70% of the APA is made up of players with skill levels of 4 or lower. The 23 rule currently allows these line ups:

77333
55553
55544
66632
76542

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-20-2009, 09:09 AM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.






THOSE JERKS.... HOW DARE THEY NOT GIVE YOU ALL YOUR MONEY BACK WHEN YOU WERE DONE!

Marcus

Richardson
05-20-2009, 09:10 AM
You allow this lineup in your league?

The 23 rule is there for the lower skilled player to be able to play. The 23 rule forces teams to play the lower skilled players. And that makes sense since close to 70% of the APA is made up of players with skill levels of 4 or lower. The 23 rule currently allows these line ups:

77333
55553
55544
66632
76542


Its 7 6 5 3 2. lol

Spimp13
05-20-2009, 09:12 AM
If you don't like the APA, DON'T PLAY IN THE APA (and if you don't play, you have no room to b*tch about it...unless you just like to complain).

The majority of the posts on this thread, imo, accurately reflect the b.s. attitude that poolplayers are OWED something, just for playing. That is nonsense. Show me a business, ANY business, who does it just for the love of it (and makes no profit), and that person will be out of business in short order. Yet in every poolroom, the players expect everything to be free, to spend no money out of their own pocket, and for the room owner to hold huge tournaments (and don't forget to add plenty of $$$). No wonder rooms are closing left and right...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I have disagreed with Scott on some things in regards to APA in the past, BUT I will have to agree on these comments. Playing for $6.25 a week is cheap entertainment and it is still a business that they can't do for free. I still think there are some problems with APA, but there are some very positive things about it as well. It will never be perfect, but that is ok by me.

APA LO
05-20-2009, 09:19 AM
Its 7 6 5 3 2. lol

Yeah, you got me. I need to proofread before I post.

magnetardo
05-20-2009, 09:21 AM
I have a 7 and a 6 and know ALL the combinations that you can use lol.



Yeah, you got me. I need to proofread before I post.

Richardson
05-20-2009, 09:22 AM
Yeah, you got me. I need to proofread before I post.


I had a team that played that way for a year. we had a 7, 6, 5, 5, 4, 3, 3, 2


Was the easiest team to field i ever was the captian of. Also went to vegas which was a + + +

Ant812
05-20-2009, 09:45 AM
i enjoy the apa and take it for what it is. and these rosters numbers you are posting are great. but lets turn to 9 ball and throw in some 8's and 9's. i dont think raising the total up to 25 would hurt too much. i am a captain of a 9 ball team that started with 76553332. in one session we are now 76664432. this all happened early in the session and unless my 2 shows up, i cant shoot. and it seems like the lower the number, the more likely something will come up giving them an excuse to not show (refering to my team, not yours). on top of that one of the 6's and one of the 4's are way overrated, cant remeber the last time they won, and still dont move down. it seems to me that one quicker to go up and slower to come down. but it is what it is, i enjoy it, i just think they could change a few things.

Spimp13
05-20-2009, 11:01 AM
There can be a valid argument for the handicap system on how the rules are set on people moving up or down as being flawed. It does seem to be easier for someone to move up then moving down. I believe there are several things involved with the handicap system (how many innings, who you beat, who you played, your win loss in the last either 10 or 20 etc). I had this happen to a guy I played in playoffs. I am a 7 and he was a 6. I beat him 5-0 in about 9 innings. Guess what...next week he moved up to a 7!! We both couldn't believe it. When we asked the LO and he mentioned how the system I believe took your recent 20 plays and that this match based off of whatever formula they use caused him to move up even though he didn't win a game. Something doesn't seem right about that...

FeltMaster
05-20-2009, 11:01 AM
I had a team that played that way for a year. we had a 7, 6, 5, 5, 4, 3, 3, 2


Was the easiest team to field i ever was the captian of. Also went to vegas which was a + + +

My current 8 ball team is : 6,6,5,5,5,4,3,3

We play 6,5,5,4,3 80% of the time and it works well.

IbeAnEngineer
05-20-2009, 11:07 AM
I agree, the APA is not a Rip-Off. However, in the area that I live in a player has a Choice between APA, BCA and VNEA and several independent/local cash & trophy leagues.

Comparing the APA, BCA and VNEA leagues in Houston, the APA clearly has the worst return on investment of the three. I played in the APA from 1992 to 2003. My main issue is that a team can play all year long and when it gets to the end of the year only 5 out of almost 200 teams have the opportunity to travel to Nationals. On the other hand, the BCA league and Valley league both pay back money to on 80% or more of the teams in the league and all teams in the league can go out to Vegas and participate AS A TEAM if they choose.

I for one got tired of investing a year of weekly play and dues to have it all riding on one weekend in late May (city finals) for any return.
Just my 2 cents.

erik
05-20-2009, 11:17 AM
I'd be happy to play in other leagues, but first I have to be good enough. I'd have no fun if I was playing solid players without a handicap, even a flawed one.

I'm an APA lvl4. No sandbagging, no BS. I know that I play "lvl 4's" who are borderline 6's due to their sandbagging, but I see it as a way to force me to 'man up' and learn to play like a champ. Sometimes I even bury those f**kers, like last week when the other team was questioning whether I should be a 4 because I beat their guy in a hard fought battle. My (announced) safeties beat his 'bagging :grin:.

To me, the money is just part of playing pool. I pay $13 a week for a few hours of playtime, to get away from the wife & kids for a bit, for pointers on my skills and abilities, have some fun, and compete in a friendly game. If I get any cash back, I've won more than I expected.:thumbup:

sonofthunder
05-20-2009, 11:38 AM
It is true about having to split & having to form 2 new teams, to make 23.So we did, & there were some growing pangs. We still made the playoffs & made some new friends, & still get to see our "other half" on
Tues night. As a coach, as well as a builder, I find that another welcomed challenge. It truly is different strokes for different folks.
Enjoy Pool!! Paul

Richardson
05-20-2009, 11:42 AM
My (announced) safeties beat his 'bagging :grin:

Thats the whole concept to bagging, you find someone who REALLY wants to win then make them believe they did.

cigardave
05-20-2009, 12:01 PM
I ran an in-house independant league for ~8 years that was highly successful.

The league was based on having 4-person teams... and we balanced the total skill level of each team by assigning an "A" player, a "B" player, a "C" player and a "D" player to each team... the players were selected by random draw so there could be no "fixed" teams.

We did allow some "teaming", such as husband/wife and/or bf/gf relationships, provided such teaming was acceptable to the majority of the league membership... we voted on each proposed teaming relationship. The most notable aspect to our league... There was no sandbagging.

And on the money side of it, we paid every team money at the end of each session. The payout was pretty flat. We also paid the Top 10 Shooters and we also paid The Most Improved Individual, 2nd Session and The Most Improved Individual, Overall.


And of all the money collected during a session, we paid out to teams and individuals more than 92% of the monies collected during the session. In other words, only 8% of what was collected went into my pocket and that of the Treasurer who had duties to collect the money and bank it.

frankncali
05-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Every league has its ups and downs. I have been told by a few that I would like the VNEA and that its a great league. Just not sure why if its better that it has not gotten more widespread.

I played BCA and it was ok. Just not much fun playing one game and then sitting. Also not fun playing people that are not very good even up. No handicap sucks for 80% of the players if not more. BCA is more of a
sanctioning body rather than a league though. I really dont think it should even be compared to the other national same format everywhere leagues.

The APA has its flaws but its a great representation of america. Many small businesses are ran great and many are not. APA leagues are franchised small businesses and will have the same characteristics.

Biggest troubles in APA for me is people that dont have a clue about pool judging skill levels and people thinking that they aer sandbagging when in reality that are not. Most teams that bag dont do that well. I have played in 3 different APA areas and most teams that bag are made up of players scared to put it on the line every week so they "bag". When it counts its amazing that they other guy just got lucky and beat them..stupid APA rules etc..

Big Perm
05-20-2009, 12:07 PM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.


If you continue to make posts that utilize common sense and make valid points, I will start reporting you and do my best to have you banned :D

Richardson
05-20-2009, 12:13 PM
If you started a league that magically made someone a better player the longer they played. But, offered no payback and no national trip.

Would anyone play ?

MikeM
05-20-2009, 12:40 PM
i joined 2 apa teams and was told i needed to sandbag,, i refused and quit...


apa is for cheaters,,

PAt

Did you report the person(s) who told you to sandbag?

If not you are enabling the cheating.

MM

crawfish
05-20-2009, 12:43 PM
Now that I've raised the bar at a "3" level, I am gonna take off regionals this year.




APA is a business. It is profitable. It does bring people together fairly cheaply to play competitively. It is a "for profit" business. It does promote ranking, sandbagging, and other traits normally saved for the degenerate gambler.

jrt30004
05-20-2009, 12:49 PM
Did you report the person(s) who told you to sandbag?

If not you are enabling the cheating.

MM

amen.:thumbup:

TWOFORPOOL
05-20-2009, 12:58 PM
If you continue to make posts that utilize common sense and make valid points, I will start reporting you and do my best to have you banned :D

Now I don't care who you are THATS FUNNY!!!!

jrt30004
05-20-2009, 01:12 PM
It does promote ranking, sandbagging, and other traits normally saved for the degenerate gambler.[/QUOTE]

there's the rub. the same people who hate that stuff in the apa are the same people trying to sqeeze a spot they don't deserve out of someone for money. they are the same people i play in handicapped tournaments who claim i should be ranked much higher than i am and then run three racks and out on me. it goes on everywhere get over it. the apa at least gives exposure to the game. yes, one out of twenty will take the game seriously, and the other 19 will look like a monkey f*cking a football, but one of twenty is better than none out of a million. and for the people who play in these s*itty areas, i feel for ya. sucks to be you. here in atlanta i've pocketed 500 bucks in less than the last year playing in apa tournaments and i haven't sniffed a trip to vegas. that was just the money won in three singles tournaments. and it covered a nice portion of my weekly fees. first place team in each division gets a 100 dollar bonus and we run division cups and qualifier cups three times a year and if you win your barcket in the qualifer you take about a grand as a team (800 for second, 400 for 3rd/4th and the numbers are a little lower for nine ball because you have less teams) and the right to play in the cities. the cities are held once a year and send about four or five 8 ball and four or five 9 ball teams. we also send a few jack and jill and scotch doubles teams in both 8 and 9 as well as a few regional singles in each sl bracket. so no our LO isn't hording millions away on our 9 dollar a person a match and $25 a person yearly dues. he makes a living. good god - if you hate it don't play it. but don't sit around and b*tch and moan that the game is dying and please don't whine about the apa. just don't play and let those of us who enjoy it play in it. and just for the record the bca is filled with just as many little b*tches as the apa. just ask the nit assed motherf*cker i had to deal with last night who couldn't run out of a burning building but couldn't wait to tell me what i was doing wrong. f*cking nits are everywhere. i'm gonna use that s*it as a sig line.

Spimp13
05-20-2009, 01:19 PM
But how do you feel about that, I hate it when you hold back?

crawfish
05-20-2009, 01:21 PM
It does promote ranking, sandbagging, and other traits normally saved for the degenerate gambler.

there's the rub. the same people who hate that stuff in the apa are the same people trying to sqeeze a spot they don't deserve out of someone for money. they are the same people i play in handicapped tournaments who claim i should be ranked much higher than i am and then run three racks and out on me. it goes on everywhere get over it. the apa at least gives exposure to the game. yes, one out of twenty will take the game seriously, and the other 19 will look like a monkey f*cking a football, but one of twenty is better than none out of a million. and for the people who play in these s*itty areas, i feel for ya. sucks to be you. here in atlanta i've pocketed 500 bucks in less than the last year playing in apa tournaments and i haven't sniffed a trip to vegas. that was just the money won in three singles tournaments. and it covered a nice portion of my weekly fees. first place team in each division gets a 100 dollar bonus and we run division cups and qualifier cups three times a year and if you win your barcket in the qualifer you take about a grand as a team (800 for second, 400 for 3rd/4th and the numbers are a little lower for nine ball because you have less teams) and the right to play in the cities. the cities are held once a year and send about four or five 8 ball and four or five 9 ball teams. we also send a few jack and jill and scotch doubles teams in both 8 and 9 as well as a few regional singles in each sl bracket. so no our LO isn't hording millions away on our 9 dollar a person a match and $25 a person yearly dues. he makes a living. good god - if you hate it don't play it. but don't sit around and b*tch and moan that the game is dying and please don't whine about the apa. just don't play and let those of us who enjoy it play in it. and just for the record the bca is filled with just as many little b*tches as the apa. just ask the nit assed motherf*cker i had to deal with last night who couldn't run out of a burning building but couldn't wait to tell me what i was doing wrong. f*cking nits are everywhere. i'm gonna use that s*it as a sig line.[/QUOTE]

My point is in my quote, that, people bi#$h about the gamblers and people trying to match up in their own favor. They play APA for fun. APA is structured to keep great players out. I played undefeated as a seven ONE year. That is as high as APA goes here. People even complained I shouldn't be allowed to play. Pool is pool. Noone's gonnna change. Everyone wants to win at whatever rank. Some for the cheese, some for a trophy, some for recognition. APA is a business that promotes people spending money in my home poolroom. Good. Spend away.

ronhudson
05-20-2009, 01:43 PM
Every league has its ups and downs. I have been told by a few that I would like the VNEA and that its a great league. Just not sure why if its better that it has not gotten more widespread.



VNEA (Valley National 8-Ball Association) can only be played on Valley tables that are owned by a Valley vendor, and the franchise in any local area is only available to a Valley vendor who serves that area.

Jerry Yost
05-20-2009, 02:28 PM
Thanks to the Greater Washington DC area APA, League Operator Lee Tiani and Hard Times Cafe of Germantown!!!!

I can't think of too many things I can do for 4hours of what I consider entertainment for a whopping $9 dollars!!!! There are numerous league nights when I don't even play a match and I'm shooting for free for the entire night. In addition, the room I play at offers free pool for any APA player except for weekend nights.

Payouts and Vegas are simply icing on the cake for me.

poolfoole
05-20-2009, 03:30 PM
My current 8 ball team is : 6,6,5,5,5,4,3,3

We play 6,5,5,4,3 80% of the time and it works well.

You'd better hope to God your 3s don't go up to 4s, and that they show up every single week. Otherwise you're screwed.

railfirst
05-20-2009, 03:32 PM
I just went and saw Star Trek and really enjoyed it until I left and THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME ANY MONEY BACK! These cheap pyamid theaters are robbing us!!!! Yes the majority of the money goes back to the originators/investors of the movie and those damn theaters keep the rest AND I DON'T GET BACK A DIME!!! What a ripoff.

Why is it in pool that the better you are the more you expect something back from a league or pool room? If you want to make money in pool go gamble or play in tournaments. People who complain about paying 6.00 - 10.00 to play in a league ARE NITS!! You should keep your money and quit whinning about it. You will feel better.

I play in the APA because its fun and entertaining and I have a good time with my wife and friends. I don't do it for money - I have a job for that.
true, but if you play in a cash league you would expect to get cash back.


Ben

jrt30004
05-20-2009, 03:35 PM
there's the rub. the same people who hate that stuff in the apa are the same people trying to sqeeze a spot they don't deserve out of someone for money. they are the same people i play in handicapped tournaments who claim i should be ranked much higher than i am and then run three racks and out on me. it goes on everywhere get over it. the apa at least gives exposure to the game. yes, one out of twenty will take the game seriously, and the other 19 will look like a monkey f*cking a football, but one of twenty is better than none out of a million. and for the people who play in these s*itty areas, i feel for ya. sucks to be you. here in atlanta i've pocketed 500 bucks in less than the last year playing in apa tournaments and i haven't sniffed a trip to vegas. that was just the money won in three singles tournaments. and it covered a nice portion of my weekly fees. first place team in each division gets a 100 dollar bonus and we run division cups and qualifier cups three times a year and if you win your barcket in the qualifer you take about a grand as a team (800 for second, 400 for 3rd/4th and the numbers are a little lower for nine ball because you have less teams) and the right to play in the cities. the cities are held once a year and send about four or five 8 ball and four or five 9 ball teams. we also send a few jack and jill and scotch doubles teams in both 8 and 9 as well as a few regional singles in each sl bracket. so no our LO isn't hording millions away on our 9 dollar a person a match and $25 a person yearly dues. he makes a living. good god - if you hate it don't play it. but don't sit around and b*tch and moan that the game is dying and please don't whine about the apa. just don't play and let those of us who enjoy it play in it. and just for the record the bca is filled with just as many little b*tches as the apa. just ask the nit assed motherf*cker i had to deal with last night who couldn't run out of a burning building but couldn't wait to tell me what i was doing wrong. f*cking nits are everywhere. i'm gonna use that s*it as a sig line.

My point is in my quote, that, people bi#$h about the gamblers and people trying to match up in their own favor. They play APA for fun. APA is structured to keep great players out. I played undefeated as a seven ONE year. That is as high as APA goes here. People even complained I shouldn't be allowed to play. Pool is pool. Noone's gonnna change. Everyone wants to win at whatever rank. Some for the cheese, some for a trophy, some for recognition. APA is a business that promotes people spending money in my home poolroom. Good. Spend away.[/QUOTE]

that's why i put that in bold when i quoted you. i agree whole heartedly.

CreeDo
05-20-2009, 11:19 PM
VNEA (Valley National 8-Ball Association) can only be played on Valley tables that are owned by a Valley vendor, and the franchise in any local area is only available to a Valley vendor who serves that area.

I'd heard this too. I don't want to get anyone in trouble but our VNEA league doesn't go by these rules. We play on non-valley brand barboxes and many full-sized tables throughout the year.

I like the handicapping system better than the APA's and I like travelling to various places to play, even though half of them are bars with really nasty 7 footers that have been set on fire and pissed on.

Jerry Yost
05-21-2009, 05:59 AM
Congratulations to the APA for creating a sustainable business model that makes it profitable for the franchiser/LO while providing good quality entertainment at a very reasonable cost for the players. I suppose some players would like to leach as much as they could out of the organization until it was no longer attractive to LO's as a business and then it would just disappear much like many of the men's professional organizations.

TWOFORPOOL
05-21-2009, 11:21 AM
Congratulations to the APA for creating a sustainable business model that makes it profitable for the franchiser/LO while providing good quality entertainment at a very reasonable cost for the players. I suppose some players would like to leach as much as they could out of the organization until it was no longer attractive to LO's as a business and then it would just disappear much like many of the men's professional organizations.


And that's the bottom line! Well said.