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View Full Version : BCA bands phenolic saturday at nationals


banky
05-20-2009, 06:34 PM
Will be in print new rule book that is now in printing.

Check post down ways for more info. BCA and Jump cues

tucson9ball
05-20-2009, 06:40 PM
Will be in print new rule book that is now in printing.

Check post down ways for more info. BCA and Jump cues

Ok? Are they banding them or banning them? ;)

akaTrigger
05-20-2009, 08:10 PM
Ok? Are they banding them or banning them? ;)

I'm just as confused. Was this thread useful? It just makes my head hurt. I wouldn't mind knowing more info though... I just can't read between the fuzzy lines/words.

qbilder
05-20-2009, 09:20 PM
Say it aint so :eek: How's anybody gonna play if they can't break? Sorry for the sarcasm. I just don't see the big deal.

CreeDo
05-20-2009, 10:42 PM
For break cues, I dunno if it's a big deal. Some of these beat to hell house sticks have tips that are so packed and worn and shiny that they're like diamonds.

But for jump cues it's huge. I've tried many times to jump without the benefit of the harder tip and it's a huge difference. Phenolic tips really do make popping up the cue ball super easy. It'll be interesting to see how this affects people's games.

skor
05-20-2009, 10:46 PM
As long as White Diamond tips are OK then I don't mind...

ne14tennis
05-20-2009, 11:55 PM
The new rule book in effect for the 2009-2010 BCAPL season which goes into efffect 1 June prohibits the use of phenolic tips.

You can still jump, just not with phenolic.

This is for BCAPL sanctioned events. Read: Nationals and most likely your state tournament and any leagues that decide to adopt it.

TheMadScientist
05-21-2009, 01:39 AM
I'd say good, but people will just find a way around the rule. They will cut a plastic tip out and glue it to the ferrule. Noone will know the difference. Or they will go back to putting a hole with a tiny leather piece in the middle of the tip.

They should just ban all jump cues. Let people learn how to kick and masse again. Bring back some purity to the game.

steev
05-21-2009, 04:00 AM
someone please link to the wording they agreed on? i've been wanting this ban for a long time...

-s

mongoose-
05-21-2009, 04:02 AM
Are they banning only jump cues with phenolic tips or are they banning break cues as well. The phenolic tip definatly makes a difference if you ask me.. I can jump a full ball very easily with my break/jump cue with a phenolic tip without breaking it down to the jump cue. Of course the jump cue I can get over balls closer together but it is still a big advantage with that tip.

ne14tennis
05-21-2009, 04:31 AM
Are they banning only jump cues with phenolic tips or are they banning break cues as well. The phenolic tip definatly makes a difference if you ask me.. I can jump a full ball very easily with my break/jump cue with a phenolic tip without breaking it down to the jump cue. Of course the jump cue I can get over balls closer together but it is still a big advantage with that tip.

On the page with the summary of rule changes for the upcomming year, it says:Phenolic tips are prohibited at BCAPL events

I would say that covers anything you want to use with that kind of tip

Bill S
05-21-2009, 09:19 AM
The BCA Pool League is banning phenolic tips as of June 1, 2009. Cues are not an issue. Jump cues are still allowed as long as they do not have a phenolic tip on them. The harder phenolic is tearing up the cue balls.

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League
Director of Referees
Rules Administrator

SK Custom Cues
05-21-2009, 09:37 AM
The BCA Pool League is banning phenolic tips as of June 1, 2009. Cues are not an issue. Jump cues are still allowed as long as they do not have a phenolic tip on them. The harder phenolic is tearing up the cue balls.

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League
Director of Referees
Rules Administrator

What about G10? That's some hard stuff. I would think if phenolic is banned so would G10, but that is just my opinion.

I personally like white diamond. They are just as hard as phenolic tips but they are still leather and can put english on the cue ball if so desired. It doesn't get too shiny either. I think Joseph Picone invented these? Great tip. 100% leather if I am correct.

mosconiac
05-21-2009, 09:39 AM
Would it be legal to use a phenolic ferrule with the slightest sliver of leather over the top? Maybe even domed (very slightly) such that the edge of the "tip" is dead even with the edge of the ferrule?

bfdlad
05-21-2009, 10:12 AM
Well, from what I believe Mike Gulyassi owns the patent for ALL phenolic tips. I believe that he is activley talking to manufacturers and telling them that they can't make anymore or if they do they have to pay a royalty to him.

I am not sure if there is any connection here but it sure would not help Mike if his tip was made unusable in many tournys. I am sure I am reading too much into this, I am not good enough to know the difference to be honest.

btoneill
05-21-2009, 10:32 AM
What about G10? That's some hard stuff. I would think if phenolic is banned so would G10, but that is just my opinion.


G10 is a phenolic. It just has fiberglass in it to make it stronger. Other phenolic tips use linen/cotton in its construction.

Brian

mongoose-
05-21-2009, 10:37 AM
On the page with the summary of rule changes for the upcomming year, it says:Phenolic tips are prohibited at BCAPL events

I would say that covers anything you want to use with that kind of tip

Thank you ne14tennis. I will bet there will be other leagues/organisations following suit as well. BUMMER! :(

iba7467
05-21-2009, 10:39 AM
I'd say good, but people will just find a way around the rule. They will cut a plastic tip out and glue it to the ferrule. Noone will know the difference. Or they will go back to putting a hole with a tiny leather piece in the middle of the tip.

They should just ban all jump cues. Let people learn how to kick and masse again. Bring back some purity to the game.

Absolutely, and let's go back to clay balls and wooden tables. Simonis cloth is really unfair and let's move on to basketball too. The dunk, out of here ... breakaway rims, no way ... the three point line, bye bye. Golf ... no more synthetic balls, no large head drivers, no wedges. Racing, no turbo chargers, no superchargers, no NOS, no oversized bores.

These things are natural progressions of the game that change it from its history. These things happen. It's how life goes. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but why ask for purity in pool and nothing else. Unless you follow an Amish lifestyle or more severe you have accepted the evolution of the world around you, but not your game.

Tom In Cincy
05-21-2009, 10:57 AM
As much as there is physical change to try to improve games, there is also the RULE changes that also cause resistance. There has always been some level of 'resistance' for any change(s). All games/sports go through this.

Especially when there isn't a single authority for physical or rule changes in pool, it will be pretty much left up to the whims of all the different organizations.





These things are natural progressions of the game that change it from its history. These things happen. It's how life goes. .

TheMadScientist
05-21-2009, 11:29 AM
Absolutely, and let's go back to clay balls and wooden tables. Simonis cloth is really unfair and let's move on to basketball too. The dunk, out of here ... breakaway rims, no way ... the three point line, bye bye. Golf ... no more synthetic balls, no large head drivers, no wedges. Racing, no turbo chargers, no superchargers, no NOS, no oversized bores.

These things are natural progressions of the game that change it from its history. These things happen. It's how life goes. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but why ask for purity in pool and nothing else. Unless you follow an Amish lifestyle or more severe you have accepted the evolution of the world around you, but not your game.

Jumping with toothpick is different than having nice balls and cloth. If a 4 in APA can line up with his tiny stick and fire a jump in every time, there is someting wrong with the system. How often would that same player even get a good hit kicking or curving?

There is a difference with pool and the pro sports you mentioned. If I wanted to go play golf with a shovel in my back yard, I could do it. Could I play on the pro tour with one? No. They wouldn't let me play with or without one. What if I could beat Tiger Woods with my shovel? Not because I play good, but because a shovel gets over all the trees in the way 95% of the time. Then it would not be a skill game anymore, and Tiger will soon be using a shovel to play too.

NewStroke
05-21-2009, 11:38 AM
If you have a jump cue that could potentially ruin the balls, I say ban that substance. Good pool balls are not cheap and owners can't afford to be replacing them all the time.

MitchAlsup
05-21-2009, 11:44 AM
Me, I do not see this as a problem. There are plenty of tips out there that measure 95+ on the durrometer--so for $10-$30 the jump cue or break cue is made legal (again) with little loss in energy/utility and a gain in lack-of-damage to the cue balls.

pwd72s
05-21-2009, 11:46 AM
I agree...why damage balls? Isn't this why the rules banning phenolic were put in place?

btoneill
05-21-2009, 11:46 AM
For those making the sports analogies...

* The PGA bans new things all the time.
* MLB still doesn't allow aluminum bats
* FINA (world swimming ruling body) has just the other day banned 10 high-tech swimsuits
* ICU (international cycling union) has banned many technologies in bikes

There have been many technical advances in pool that haven't been banned. Laminated shafts, laminated tips, aluminum cue shafts, carbon fibre cue shafts, better rails, better cloth, better chalk, etc. Just because they are banning something that:
1) can damage the cue ball
2) causes a higher incidence of the cue ball leaving the table on a break (which can injure bystanders)
3) can cause cause wear spots to appear faster on the cloth
doesn't mean that the sport is anti-technology.

Now, if they started banning every new technology that comes around, I'd agree with you, but this is one item.

Brian

NewStroke
05-21-2009, 11:53 AM
Come to think of it, the BCA should ban my toddler, he has done a number on a couple of my balls bouncing them off the cement garage floor :D

stormshadow1
05-21-2009, 11:54 AM
These tips are hard a hell and you can apply some english if need be.I don't agree with the ban but these tips are just as good as any phenolic and legal!!:thumbup:

CocoboloCowboy
05-21-2009, 11:56 AM
Well will this be the end of the tiger Ice Breaker Tips?

NewStroke
05-21-2009, 11:59 AM
I agree about the white diamond tips and may be converting to that since I have a couple lying around.

Is the Ice Breaker tip phenolic?

SupaFoo
05-21-2009, 12:05 PM
I agree about the white diamond tips and may be converting to that since I have a couple lying around.

Is the Ice Breaker tip phenolic?

It contacts the ball with leather but has a phenolic jacket

rayjay
05-21-2009, 12:16 PM
I've never seen a cueball damaged by a phenolic tip, but I guess others have. I have seen small chips in other balls caused by collision with the cueball and other balls. Aren't they phenolic too? Anyway, my break cue has a phenolic tip that I will grind flat and put a milk dud on if I have to, my break shouldn't suffer much. I hardly ever jump so that won't affect me hardly at all. Wonder what impact this will have on all other pieces of the poolplayer trade, i.e. pro and amateur tournaments, other leagues, poolrooms, and especially the rush to produce "compliant" break and jump cues.
:p

Cuebacca
05-21-2009, 12:30 PM
Pool balls have a limited lifespan. They do not last forever. They wear out and get smaller and lighter as they continue to be used. So to simply say, "cue balls get damaged by phenolics" is meaningless.

Here is the important question: What effect does this "damage" have on cue ball performance, and by how much is the ball's lifespan shortened by regular use of phenolic tips?

Is there a test that one can perform on a "damaged" cue ball to show that it somehow plays differently from a brand new one? If not, then this ban is BS and only prevents aesthetic damage.

Tommy-D
05-21-2009, 12:58 PM
> It wouldn't bother me a bit,I don't have phenolic on my break cue (I don't need it),and my jump cue has a Future synthetic leather tip on it,which has been approved by the BCA for about 15 years now. Tommy D.

ne14tennis
05-21-2009, 01:57 PM
The bottom line is: If it is not leather, you won't be allowed to use it for jumping, breaking or shooting.

I asked about the variations, e.g., White Diamond Tips or the Ice Breaker Tips and I was told that they would probably not allow those either.

The pool hall I play out of replaced several red dot cue balls due to this. You don't notice it unless you look for it but if the ball is clean, you can see dozens of half circles and circles wich look like hairline cracks in the surface.

Cuebacca
05-21-2009, 02:11 PM
The pool hall I play out of replaced several red dot cue balls due to this. You don't notice it unless you look for it but if the ball is clean, you can see dozens of half circles and circles wich look like hairline cracks in the surface.

But what was their rationale for replacing them? Did they determine that these marks, which are hardly noticeable unless you are looking carefully for them, somehow affect how the balls play? If not, that's like replacing Simonis after one week of use because they noticed two lines of burn marks were being formed due to breaking. :confused:

CocoboloCowboy
05-21-2009, 02:21 PM
It contacts the ball with leather but has a phenolic jacket


Hopefully Crown City Cory will chime in on the subject!

Big Perm
05-21-2009, 02:27 PM
At one point, didn't we all just use the heaviest house cue off the rack to break with???? Hell, many people break and jump with their playing cue....

Methinks this is not a big deal....it may help my game, my new-fangled break cue with phenolic tip and I have never really gotten along :D

pooltchr
05-21-2009, 02:56 PM
and especially the rush to produce "compliant" break and jump cues.
:p

Good point. The most popular single jump-break cue in the pool room where I play is the Fury J/B with phonelic tip. They have been out for around 7 or 8 years. Many other brands have also been out there just as long. There are an awful lot of them out in the player's hands.

I wonder why they waited so long to decide to ban them?????????

Steve

ne14tennis
05-21-2009, 03:05 PM
Good point. The most popular single jump-break cue in the pool room where I play is the Fury J/B with phonelic tip. They have been out for around 7 or 8 years. Many other brands have also been out there just as long. There are an awful lot of them out in the player's hands.

I wonder why they waited so long to decide to ban them?????????

Steve
Maybe it took years to see the cumulative effects of the damage?

CocoboloCowboy
05-21-2009, 03:50 PM
Maybe the players should send the BCA a message, where move to other leagues. I honestly do not understand how a Tip could damage Cue Balls, unless they are those Faux Aramith Balls being made in Asia.

BVal
05-21-2009, 03:54 PM
Maybe the players should send the BCA a message, where move to other leagues. I honestly do not understand how a Tip could damage Cue Balls, unless they are those Faux Aramith Balls being made in Asia.
Because some of the tips are harder then the cue balls themselves.

BVal

Rich93
05-21-2009, 04:17 PM
Good point. The most popular single jump-break cue in the pool room where I play is the Fury J/B with phonelic tip. They have been out for around 7 or 8 years. Many other brands have also been out there just as long. There are an awful lot of them out in the player's hands.

I wonder why they waited so long to decide to ban them?????????

Steve

Better late than never.

TheMadScientist
05-21-2009, 04:18 PM
Maybe the players should send the BCA a message, where move to other leagues. I honestly do not understand how a Tip could damage Cue Balls, unless they are those Faux Aramith Balls being made in Asia.

I've seen some major damage on some of the red circle cue balls in our pool hall. Little half circle cracks all over the ball. I didn't know what the damage was from until now.

If I play a big money set, I'd like to not worry that maybe the ball will skid because of an ugly cue ball.

TXsouthpaw
05-21-2009, 04:57 PM
I wonder why they waited so long to decide to ban them?????????

Steve



Good question. If they do hurt the balls then this wouldve been obvious years ago. Why wait till now? I think the "it hurts the cue ball" argument is total BS. and i dont buy it.

TXsouthpaw
05-21-2009, 05:15 PM
Will be in print new rule book that is now in printing.

Check post down ways for more info. BCA and Jump cues


is english your third language or what?

pooltchr
05-21-2009, 05:48 PM
I wonder which causes more cue ball damage...phonelic tips, or cue balls flying across the room and hitting the floor when someone loses control on a break shot.

CocoboloCowboy
05-21-2009, 05:56 PM
I've seen some major damage on some of the red circle cue balls in our pool hall. Little half circle cracks all over the ball. I didn't know what the damage was from until now.

If I play a big money set, I'd like to not worry that maybe the ball will skid because of an ugly cue ball.

Your point than is one from personal experience. Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

btoneill
05-22-2009, 07:10 AM
I wonder which causes more cue ball damage...phonelic tips, or cue balls flying across the room and hitting the floor when someone loses control on a break shot.

And some owners swear that the phenolic break cues are causing more cue balls to fly off the table, hence doubling the issue...