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qbilder
05-21-2009, 12:11 AM
Ok so i'm kinda bored & I have one of those dynamic brains that never rests. I just read a thread about table cloth & deflection. So I figured i'd ask the board about some lingering notions. Let me be clear that I understand deflection, unquestionably, in a perfect little laboratory world. This is just for fun, not trying to find an answer to life or cause arguing.

My first question is humidity. Am I the only guy who notices ball travel dynamics changing with the relative humidity? I'm sure i'm not. But I have never heard it included in deflection debates. Not to be rude, but if you can't relate to what i'm saying then you likely can't contribute worthwhile info so please skip to the next question. How does humidity affect deflection?

Next is static electricity. It causes electromagnetic fields that cause objects to gravitate, in simple terms meaning it can theoretically try to bond the cueball to the table surface. Hence would require more force to move the ball, and this is where mass isn't the only variable to consider when figuring deflection. This is very real in every day play. My question is to what extent does it affect deflection? And can it be related to and/or happen in conjunction with humidity changes?

Last is table cloth. In golf you can relate it to putting in the rough or on the green. Let's call the, "rough", some el-cheapo high knap cloth found all across the world on bar tables. The "green" can be simonis 760. Again it's back to the force required to move the ball. In the rough, it's very difficult to move the ball, requiring considerable force. The ball will travel in the path of least resistance, meaning unpredictability. On the green, it takes minimal effort to move the ball & it travels very accurately in the direction struck. So in my chaotic mind, i'm seeing deflection having the variable of not just the ball & cue, but also the cloth under the ball that adds opposing force to the ball, thereby pinching it between it & the cue tip. That naturally will increase squirt with increased opposing force, in this case being knappy cloth. So how much does cloth affect deflection? Are all three of the variables I mention legitimate & if so, how can anybody judge deflection based on mass? Food for thought. I don't really care, just wanna know what everybody else thinks.

manwon
05-21-2009, 01:54 AM
Ok so i'm kinda bored & I have one of those dynamic brains that never rests. I just read a thread about table cloth & deflection. So I figured i'd ask the board about some lingering notions. Let me be clear that I understand deflection, unquestionably, in a perfect little laboratory world. This is just for fun, not trying to find an answer to life or cause arguing.

My first question is humidity. Am I the only guy who notices ball travel dynamics changing with the relative humidity? I'm sure i'm not. But I have never heard it included in deflection debates. Not to be rude, but if you can't relate to what i'm saying then you likely can't contribute worthwhile info so please skip to the next question. How does humidity affect deflection?

Next is static electricity. It causes electromagnetic fields that cause objects to gravitate, in simple terms meaning it can theoretically try to bond the cueball to the table surface. Hence would require more force to move the ball, and this is where mass isn't the only variable to consider when figuring deflection. This is very real in every day play. My question is to what extent does it affect deflection? And can it be related to and/or happen in conjunction with humidity changes?

Last is table cloth. In golf you can relate it to putting in the rough or on the green. Let's call the, "rough", some el-cheapo high knap cloth found all across the world on bar tables. The "green" can be simonis 760. Again it's back to the force required to move the ball. In the rough, it's very difficult to move the ball, requiring considerable force. The ball will travel in the path of least resistance, meaning unpredictability. On the green, it takes minimal effort to move the ball & it travels very accurately in the direction struck. So in my chaotic mind, i'm seeing deflection having the variable of not just the ball & cue, but also the cloth under the ball that adds opposing force to the ball, thereby pinching it between it & the cue tip. That naturally will increase squirt with increased opposing force, in this case being knappy cloth. So how much does cloth affect deflection? Are all three of the variables I mention legitimate & if so, how can anybody judge deflection based on mass? Food for thought. I don't really care, just wanna know what everybody else thinks.

My first question is humidity. Am I the only guy who notices ball travel dynamics changing with the relative humidity? I'm sure i'm not. But I have never heard it included in deflection debates. Not to be rude, but if you can't relate to what i'm saying then you likely can't contribute worthwhile info so please skip to the next question. How does humidity affect deflection?

I suspect that there are two factor that are effected by humidity on a pool table that effect ball travel and they are the rails and the cloth. High humidity equals high moisture content which translates to a slower ball speed. Now I think most players who have played in multiple environments know when a pool table is located in a uncontrolled humid environment that bank angles will shorten up. I am uncertain if this do to only the rails or if the cloth also effects these angles but, I suspect that moist cloth would tend to grab at the ball which would reduce the amount of spin transfered from being hit and as it rebounds off the rails. In the end in my opinion since moisture tends to decrease the angle by reducing spin deflection would also be minimized if moister effects it at all, and I do not think that it does.

Next is static electricity. It causes electromagnetic fields that cause objects to gravitate, in simple terms meaning it can theoretically try to bond the cueball to the table surface. Hence would require more force to move the ball, and this is where mass isn't the only variable to consider when figuring deflection. This is very real in every day play. My question is to what extent does it affect deflection? And can it be related to and/or happen in conjunction with humidity changes?

In my opinion static electricity or electromagnetic Fields would not effect an object made out of Cast Resin Phenolic since it is an insulator outside of the effects of normal gravity. But, I do think moisture built up in billiard cloth certainly does require more force to move any round object across it. I suspect that when the cloth becomes moist like I said above spin is reduced and forward momentum is also reduced because the moisture itself creates friction which increases the grab of the cloth. The cheaper and more nappy the cloth the more surface area the ball must move across do to more surface area of the ball that is touched, which in turn creates more friction and a decrease in speed. I suspect that moisture intensifies friction which equals reduced speed. I do not think that this would effect deflection one way or another.

Just my thoughts, interesting questions.

charly
05-21-2009, 03:27 AM
i do carry a humidity indicator in my cue case. i noticed that humidity does affect "ball carry" and i do adjust depending on the humidity. of course, there are other factors that you have to consider such as "squirt" when applying spin on a ball. Humidity also affects ball speed, hence one has to adjust amount of force applied.

however, i get to play only once a week so most of the time i just take everything forgranted. :)

scottyr44
05-21-2009, 03:35 AM
just hit the ball already lol ;)

JimS
05-21-2009, 04:27 AM
Analyzing those conditions doesn't help me very much. The primary thing that helps is hitting a few balls to get the "feel" of the conditions. Humidity will make a difference and since that is common knowledge it's sort of built into the "feel" of the playing. The cb gets hit a few times and you feel how it's rolling, rebounding, sliding (or not). I guess there's different strokes for different folks here. I just get really confused if I analyize it too much.

SK Custom Cues
05-21-2009, 08:35 AM
Ok so i'm kinda bored & I have one of those dynamic brains that never rests. I just read a thread about table cloth & deflection. So I figured i'd ask the board about some lingering notions. Let me be clear that I understand deflection, unquestionably, in a perfect little laboratory world. This is just for fun, not trying to find an answer to life or cause arguing.

I suppose u must be bored, cause these questions are not normally what I'd expect to read on a daily basis, but I'll give it a whack.

My first question is humidity. Am I the only guy who notices ball travel dynamics changing with the relative humidity? I'm sure i'm not. But I have never heard it included in deflection debates. Not to be rude, but if you can't relate to what i'm saying then you likely can't contribute worthwhile info so please skip to the next question. How does humidity affect deflection?

I don't mind a 'wet' table. To me, the deflection does change a little, cause I gotta stroke the ball harder. The shaft also sticks a little more, and the cloth and rails react differently when drier. I, happen to have a long stroke and I tend to notice that I am able to overcome those conditions rather easily, but there is a noticeable difference on humid days.

Next is static electricity. It causes electromagnetic fields that cause objects to gravitate, in simple terms meaning it can theoretically try to bond the cueball to the table surface. Hence would require more force to move the ball, and this is where mass isn't the only variable to consider when figuring deflection. This is very real in every day play. My question is to what extent does it affect deflection? And can it be related to and/or happen in conjunction with humidity changes?

When it comes to this, I think it also may have to do with how clean the equipment is. Particles caught do cause more friction which can result in more energy. All this is such a microscopic notion that it is almost not worth even thinking about. IMHO> Static electricity 'sticks' to various surfaces, but I can't grasp the idea of it making a significant difference on the pool table. To me it the dirt particles you have to think about as opposed to this.

Last is table cloth. In golf you can relate it to putting in the rough or on the green. Let's call the, "rough", some el-cheapo high knap cloth found all across the world on bar tables. The "green" can be simonis 760. Again it's back to the force required to move the ball. In the rough, it's very difficult to move the ball, requiring considerable force. The ball will travel in the path of least resistance, meaning unpredictability. On the green, it takes minimal effort to move the ball & it travels very accurately in the direction struck. So in my chaotic mind, i'm seeing deflection having the variable of not just the ball & cue, but also the cloth under the ball that adds opposing force to the ball, thereby pinching it between it & the cue tip. That naturally will increase squirt with increased opposing force, in this case being knappy cloth. So how much does cloth affect deflection? Are all three of the variables I mention legitimate & if so, how can anybody judge deflection based on mass? Food for thought. I don't really care, just wanna know what everybody else thinks.

I play golf. On a stimp meter, there is a slanted device held at the same angle of 20 degrees and propelled from a notch created in that ramp. How ever many feet the ball rolls is the rating of that green. details of stimp meter' here:

http://www.usga.org/turf/articles/management/greens/stimpmeter.html

I would think the same test could be applied in pool, but to me, the distance we are talking about in relation to the type of energy applied to a ball of that size is not even worth doing a test like that, cause, simply put, we are just hittin the damn thing a couple of feet, sometimes not even that.

In golf, the ball is so small compared to the blades of grass and how thick that grass is makes a huge difference. The fibers of the cloth are so relatively small compared to the cue ball, and you got to think about the bar table cue ball in relation to bar table cloth as well as the simonis cloth in relation to an aramith for instance. Aside from that, I think that the harder the shot is struck, the more action will be created with whatever in the hell you are trying to do. ie... If I have to cut in a 7 degree follow shot I have to go long ways around table with high left, I am going to have to load up more and aim my pole to a much higher extreme because of the cloth. Because I have to hit it harder, I will have to do more. This is the same if I was playing with a LD shaft or a non LD. If I had a 49 degree cut shot and I wanted to kill it with severe inside, I would have to really ginsu that bad boy to the most extreme to get the kind of action I wanted, especially if I was shooting all the way down table. These shots would definitely be struck with a varying degree of stroke thus promoting or negating the amount of deflection in my shot.
Confused? Ya, me too. :eek:

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.:wink:

dr_dave
05-21-2009, 08:53 AM
First of all, it is important to be clear with terminology so everybody knows what everybody else is talking about. It seems by "deflection" you mean "squerve" or the "combined effect of squirt (CB deflection) and swerve (CB curving)" or "effective squirt." FYI, I have some good illustrations, videos, and resources on these topics here:

Also, I have a complete summary of all effects related to squirt, swerve, and throw here:

Ok so i'm kinda bored & I have one of those dynamic brains that never rests. I just read a thread about table cloth & deflection. So I figured i'd ask the board about some lingering notions. Let me be clear that I understand deflection, unquestionably, in a perfect little laboratory world. This is just for fun, not trying to find an answer to life or cause arguing.

My first question is humidity. Am I the only guy who notices ball travel dynamics changing with the relative humidity? I'm sure i'm not. But I have never heard it included in deflection debates. Not to be rude, but if you can't relate to what i'm saying then you likely can't contribute worthwhile info so please skip to the next question. How does humidity affect deflection?Humidity generally makes conditions more "sticky." See the effects page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects) for more info.

Next is static electricity. It causes electromagnetic fields that cause objects to gravitate, in simple terms meaning it can theoretically try to bond the cueball to the table surface. Hence would require more force to move the ball, and this is where mass isn't the only variable to consider when figuring deflection. This is very real in every day play. My question is to what extent does it affect deflection? And can it be related to and/or happen in conjunction with humidity changes?Static electricity decreases with increased humidity. I personally don't think this is a significant factor, even in extremely dry climates (e.g., in Colorado, where live).

Last is table cloth. In golf you can relate it to putting in the rough or on the green. Let's call the, "rough", some el-cheapo high knap cloth found all across the world on bar tables. The "green" can be simonis 760. Again it's back to the force required to move the ball. In the rough, it's very difficult to move the ball, requiring considerable force. The ball will travel in the path of least resistance, meaning unpredictability. On the green, it takes minimal effort to move the ball & it travels very accurately in the direction struck. So in my chaotic mind, i'm seeing deflection having the variable of not just the ball & cue, but also the cloth under the ball that adds opposing force to the ball, thereby pinching it between it & the cue tip. That naturally will increase squirt with increased opposing force, in this case being knappy cloth. So how much does cloth affect deflection? Are all three of the variables I mention legitimate & if so, how can anybody judge deflection based on mass? Food for thought. I don't really care, just wanna know what everybody else thinks.The cloth has no effect on squirt (CB deflection) but it has a big effect on swerve (CB curve). Again, all of the cloth-related and other effects are summarized here:

Check them out.

Regards,
Dave

CreeDo
05-21-2009, 09:09 AM
It's not that these things are utterly crazy, it's just that if there's any affect at all, it's so slight that they can be ignored. The cue ball is relatively massive compared to the forces at work here. Static electricity is enough to move a strand of hair (.00001 ounces at the heavy end, if I'm using google properly) and the ball is 6 ounces.

Humidity affects roll distance but has nothing to do with roll angle. The ball and the cue tip experience no 'pinching', the ball leaves the tip as soon as possible and it's fully off the tip before it crosses a single individual thread on the pool cloth. Golf and pool have some similarities but you're overcooking it. Individual blades of grass being higher than a golf ball will impede it. These fibers are huge compared to the ball, and rough and random. Fibers of cloth are not huge compared to the ball - even on the nappiest cloth the biggest fiber is just microscopically higher than the absolute bottom-most point on the ball. Those tiny fibers are not enough to overcome the force of the 19 oz (or whatever) cue forcefully smacking a 6 oz ball enough to get it to deflect significantly.

I won't say humidity affects nothing on the pool table, it affects roll distance (when 99% of that force is gone from the cue ball, the humidity probably affects whether it takes another turn or two or just comes to rest) but I don't see it doing a thing to deflection. All the action in a deflected shot happens faster than you can imagine, literally before the ball even gets rolling.

You know what would probably have a stronger affect? The nap of the cloth vs. swerve. Just throwing that out there.

--

Even though you really don't want to hear it, there's a point where overthinking these things can be bad for your game. Please don't ever try to claim you missed a ball due to static electricity or humidity =)

qbilder
05-21-2009, 10:06 AM
:thumbup: Thanks for the conversation, fellows. In reality, I play with no concious attention on anything except making balls & getting position. I see so much talk about deflection & thought i'd throw some things out there, throwing a bone to the dog you might say.

I did read some interesting input. I do thoroughly understand squirt vs. deflection. That's middle school physics. What my questions were about is deflection, mostly. By adding opposing force to the cueball, it is theoretically a substitute for mass. This in turn makes the cueball seem heavier, requiring more force from the cue stick to impart movement. A good example of my thinking is take that 6oz cb & put an ounce of restriction under it, in the form of wet cloth or high knap, thus requiring an extra ounce of force from the cue stick. That extra ounce of force will indeed cause the cue stick to deflect more than dry, smooth playing conditions with the same equipment. Yes, an ounce is a lot & unrealistic, but it's an easy example. Maybe i'm wrong. If so, I should never have passed 7th grade :eek:

I appreciate reading the replies. Some ok entertainment for a few minutes :)