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View Full Version : Lift the ban bca!!!!!!


rbpwrd240
05-21-2009, 02:49 PM
For those that dont know the BCA has banned phenolic tips, does this also mean white diamond tips, G-10, tiger x-breaker and others? It is unclear at this moment.

There is another thread talking about this topic but I feel it is necessary to make the wheel squeek a little louder so that it may get some immediate attention.

DONT BE SILENT AZB!!!!!

I beg every self respecting jumper kicker and masse player to say a few words here to try to get the word to the BCA officials that this is rediculous. I cant believe they are goingt o take away so many options from the players. Now im gunna have to have several shafts for different competittions. To suit this new rule that I hope doesnt catch on. If we allowed this type of thing everytime some one wants to argue bringing back the old heritage of the game we would still all be playing on hand carved wooden slates.

BCA I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR RULLING AND WILL NOT PUT AWAY MY PHENOLICS!!! NOW I WILL JUST HAVE TO FIND AWAY TO MAKE A FENOLIC FOR USE IN YOUR EVENTS!!!

BVal
05-21-2009, 03:18 PM
For those that dont know the BCA has banned phenolic tips, does this also mean white diamond tips, G-10, tiger x-breaker and others? It is unclear at this moment.

There is another thread talking about this topic but I feel it is necessary to make the wheel squeek a little louder so that it may get some immediate attention.

DONT BE SILENT AZB!!!!!

I beg every self respecting jumper kicker and masse player to say a few words here to try to get the word to the BCA officials that this is rediculous. I cant believe they are goingt o take away so many options from the players. Now im gunna have to have several shafts for different competittions. To suit this new rule that I hope doesnt catch on. If we allowed this type of thing everytime some one wants to argue bringing back the old heritage of the game we would still all be playing on hand carved wooden slates.

BCA I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR RULLING AND WILL NOT PUT AWAY MY PHENOLICS!!! NOW I WILL JUST HAVE TO FIND AWAY TO MAKE A FENOLIC FOR USE IN YOUR EVENTS!!!
I use a WD tip and my jumper has a Phenolic tip on it. I am not upset that they are banning those tips. There are VERY hard leather tips out there that can do the job as well. What is the worst that comes of it? You have to put in more work to perfect your jump shot? I am certainly willing to do that.

I am not sure I understand what "so many options" you are talking about. The tip ban only effects two shots, the jump and the break, and it doesn't even effect those two shots that much. imo.

BVal

muddawg
05-21-2009, 03:25 PM
I beg every self respecting jumper kicker and masse player to say a few words here to try to get the word to the BCA officials that this is rediculous. I cant believe they are goingt o take away so many options from the players.

I don't mean to be picky :o... but, how does the banning of phenolic tips affect kick shots? I consider myself to be more of a kicker than a jumper, so I'm just curious.

I agree with bval...

mikeyfrost
05-21-2009, 03:27 PM
No point in fighting the system. I agree with it if they are suffering huge losses due to equipment damage, just because you know how to use your cues properly doesnt mean others do as well. How many tables have you seen the felt ruined in what feels like minutes because people scrape the cloth when they break or shoot through the slate when they jump.

If it's because of any competitive advantage though. It's bogus. Use what you need is the way I look at it. I know guys that play with Superpro tips and guess what, they do everything with one cue. Anyways I bet it is repair cost related.

BVal
05-21-2009, 03:29 PM
No point in fighting the system. I agree with it if they are suffering huge losses due to equipment damage, just because you know how to use your cues properly doesnt mean others do as well. How many tables have you seen the felt ruined in what feels like minutes because people scrape the cloth when they break or shoot through the slate when they jump.

If it's because of any competitive advantage though. It's bogus. Use what you need is the way I look at it. I know guys that play with Superpro tips and guess what, they do everything with one cue. Anyways I bet it is repair cost related.
I use a Superpro on my player and there are a lot of nights when I don't even get my break cue out of my case. I have also used my player to jump balls.

BVal

KJ Cues
05-21-2009, 03:33 PM
Sorry, but I'm not jumping on your bandwagon.
The Billiard Congress of America can set the rules as they see fit.
That's part of their purpose. I totally support their decision.
Both phenolic and G-10 have the potential to damage the CB.
Costs of new CBs aren't included in the greens fees.
You're certainly welcome to destroy your own equipment at home on your table.
Let me ask you, what did you do before phenolic?
I'm also curious about what you mean by "if we allow".
Are you thinking of boycotting?
Look, it's still a level playing field. You can't use it & nor can your opponent. A true player will adapt.

rbpwrd240
05-21-2009, 03:35 PM
I generally carry a break cue with a phenolic that doubles as a full table jumper, I dont think a leather tip will give me the same ball hoping action off the rack. I usually skip the ball and try to get it to plant back in the center(see ish) of the table. Yes this can be dangerous especially if you happend to be around my table during the first round at the May Fast Eddies tour. LOL:sorry:

I usually use a Danny Spates jumper for medoum shots and for varrying landing styles and tougher shots. I can jump draw very easily with it, most any jump will be pocketed and give shape. Now I say that becouse a jump that is too tough normally becomes a kick.:wink:

I just got a chilton flying eagle for dart style jumping. I can clear a ball that is within a chalk width from the impeding object ball. I have spent many hours learning how to shoot with phenolic resins. Most anyone that plays with me would tell you I have an extremly high success rate at any level. Now im not a great player and thats why I have these techniques. Now im going to have to go back and switch some of my tips and relearn the stroke and then adjust to there hit and english. Im just saying I have addapted my game to take full advantage of my options I dont like this new rule just my opinion. :angry:

For those that might say its an unfair advantage I would have to say that they need to learn to safe better. You cant jump over a ball your frozen to.:thumbup:

BVal
05-21-2009, 03:39 PM
I generally carry a break cue with a phenolic that doubles as a full table jumper, I dont think a leather tip will give me the same ball hoping action off the rack. I usually skip the ball and try to get it to plant back in the center(see ish) of the table. Yes this can be dangerous especially if you happend to be around my table during the first round at the May Fast Eddies tour. LOL:sorry:

I usually use a Danny Spates jumper for medoum shots and for varrying landing styles and tougher shots. I can jump draw very easily with it, most any jump will be pocketed and give shape. Now I say that becouse a jump that is too tough normally becomes a kick.:wink:

I just got a chilton flying eagle for dart style jumping. I can clear a ball that is within a chalk width from the impeding object ball. I have spent many hours learning how to shoot with phenolic resins. Most anyone that plays with me would tell you I have an extremly high success rate at any level. Now im not a great player and thats why I have these techniques. Now im going to have to go back and switch some of my tips and relearn the stroke and then adjust to there hit and english. Im just saying I have addapted my game to take full advantage of my options I dont like this new rule just my opinion. :angry:

For those that might say its an unfair advantage I would have to say that they need to learn to safe better. You cant jump over a ball your frozen to.:thumbup:
All of those things you said you can do can be done with a leather tip. You just need a better stroke. It is not an unfair advantage with what you have now because everyone has/had the same options - which is still the case. The playing field is level as far as equimpent goes. A players stroke, technique and smarts is what makes the difference. imo

Tom In Cincy
05-21-2009, 03:40 PM
Minor point... it is the BCAPL not the BCA. The BCA is a trade show organization and they don't make rules anymore.

As to your opinion about the BCAL banning phenolic tips, well it is just for BREAK cues. Nothing else.

If you had to pay for all of the damaged cue balls from the BCAL events, you might agree with the BCAL.

All the other events in the pool world are not obligated to abide by the BCAL rules, but the rules are some of the best ever written and are always up for review each year.

BVal
05-21-2009, 03:42 PM
Minor point... it is the BCAL not the BCA. The BCA is a trade show organization and they don't make rules anymore.

As to your opinion about the BCAL banning phenolic tips, well it is just for BREAK cues. Nothing else.

If you had to pay for all of the damaged cue balls from the BCAL events, you might agree with the BCAL.

All the other events in the pool world are not obligated to abide by the BCAL rules, but the rules are some of the best ever written and are always up for review each year.
Minor minor point. Isn't it the BCAPL? I agree with everything you said by the way.

BVal

Bill S
05-21-2009, 04:20 PM
For those that dont know the BCA has banned phenolic tips, does this also mean white diamond tips, G-10, tiger x-breaker and others? It is unclear at this moment.

There is another thread talking about this topic but I feel it is necessary to make the wheel squeek a little louder so that it may get some immediate attention.

DONT BE SILENT AZB!!!!!

I beg every self respecting jumper kicker and masse player to say a few words here to try to get the word to the BCA officials that this is rediculous. I cant believe they are goingt o take away so many options from the players. Now im gunna have to have several shafts for different competittions. To suit this new rule that I hope doesnt catch on. If we allowed this type of thing everytime some one wants to argue bringing back the old heritage of the game we would still all be playing on hand carved wooden slates.

BCA I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR RULLING AND WILL NOT PUT AWAY MY PHENOLICS!!! NOW I WILL JUST HAVE TO FIND AWAY TO MAKE A FENOLIC FOR USE IN YOUR EVENTS!!!

We are the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). You are certainly entitled to your opinion. We (BCAPL) are not going to change our minds. The new rule book has been printed and goes into effect June 1. If you are caught using it during our events the penalties will be severe. Our referees will be looking for phenolic tips. Will it be worth it to lose a match because you don't like the rules?

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League

suprnva
05-21-2009, 04:26 PM
Hey Bill,

Check your PMs.

Thanks!

JXMIKE
05-21-2009, 04:27 PM
I was pissed at this at first but now im like eh who cares.

btw bill s. does this include having a phenolic ferrule with a leather tip on top of it.

thanks.

JAM
05-21-2009, 04:31 PM
Just as an aside, on the International Pool Tour (IPT) -- I know, I know, it's gone now -- you could only use cues with leather tips.

In Vegas, a competitor forgot about this rule and was not allowed to play his match. He was disqualified. That is why I remember it.

TXsouthpaw
05-21-2009, 04:48 PM
this rule is crap. Ban the g10's thats fine, but why ALL phenolic tips? and I dont believe that load of BS about them hurting the balls either. I practice jumping and breaking for hours on end at home and my cue ball still looks like new. and im using phenolic and G10.

izquik72
05-21-2009, 05:17 PM
Whatt kind of tip is on the Predator BK cue?

Anybody make a break stick that comes with leather nowdays?

suprnva
05-21-2009, 05:25 PM
Whatt kind of tip is on the Predator BK cue?

Anybody make a break stick that comes with leather nowdays?

The original BK had leather, the BK2 has phenolic. I don't think there is a single break or break/jump cue out there that doesn't come standard with a phenolic tip these days.

mooseman
05-21-2009, 05:45 PM
I guess that is a valid question. Is there a minimum amount of leather or non phenolic tip required?

I actually had one of the XBreaker shafts with the IPT tip. If I recall it had a resin impregnated leather tip on it versus the G10 type tip.

Personally I moved back to using a WB tip on my J/B cue. More for CB control. Heck I also break and play with my Sugertree that has a SuperPro tip.

Fortunately I've gotten used to my Stealth AT1 jump cue and that has a leather tip on it.

12squared
05-21-2009, 06:05 PM
As to your opinion about the BCAL banning phenolic tips, well it is just for BREAK cues. Nothing else.


So do I understand this correctly that if you have a separate jump cue, any tip will be OK on the jump cue? Also is the Predator BK2 tip OK? (not sure what it's made of).

Thanks,

Dave

daphish1
05-21-2009, 07:20 PM
Is change that you have to use a leather tip? Has the new rule been posted anywhere?

conetip
05-21-2009, 08:16 PM
For those that dont know the BCA has banned phenolic tips, does this also mean white diamond tips, G-10, tiger x-breaker and others? It is unclear at this moment.

There is another thread talking about this topic but I feel it is necessary to make the wheel squeek a little louder so that it may get some immediate attention.

DONT BE SILENT AZB!!!!!

I beg every self respecting jumper kicker and masse player to say a few words here to try to get the word to the BCA officials that this is rediculous. I cant believe they are goingt o take away so many options from the players. Now im gunna have to have several shafts for different competittions. To suit this new rule that I hope doesnt catch on. If we allowed this type of thing everytime some one wants to argue bringing back the old heritage of the game we would still all be playing on hand carved wooden slates.

BCA I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR RULLING AND WILL NOT PUT AWAY MY PHENOLICS!!! NOW I WILL JUST HAVE TO FIND AWAY TO MAKE A FENOLIC FOR USE IN YOUR EVENTS!!!


If you get my cuttlefish tip system on your cue, then you could choose what tip you wanted on that cue, and don't have to have extra shafts. Just extra tips.
Neil

AuntyDan
05-21-2009, 09:01 PM
The original BK had leather, the BK2 has phenolic. I don't think there is a single break or break/jump cue out there that doesn't come standard with a phenolic tip these days.

I still have mine. I've had an X-Breaker (original top) and a Stinger and keep going back to my BK1 with the original leather tip. (Whatever Predator put on it at the factory.) I thought however that the Stinger tip was supposed to be leather, or very close to BCA specs. and that was one of it's selling points over the Sledgehammer-style one-piece phenolic tips.

Ironman317
05-21-2009, 09:34 PM
i wish every tour would ban phenolic tips. it takes alot more skill and knowledge to kick than it does to use a gaffed tip to jump with.

tuffstuff07
05-21-2009, 10:05 PM
so does this ban affect BCA or ACS leagues?

"T"
05-21-2009, 10:42 PM
As long as everyone else in the tourney is doing the same thing, what's the big deal?

It's not ALWAYS the power of the break. As folks have seen in the most recent ten ball tournament, it's a variation of speed and position.

I have both a phenolic and leather BK2 and honestly, the leather tip gets used 4-1 over the phenolic because of the control factor.

Maybe there's a political issue here between the BCA and Predator, who knows. It would be a dumb one if it is.

Aye chihuahua.

Mowem down
05-21-2009, 10:53 PM
Hello, is anybody going to answer the ? about bk2 tips being good or not, and the ?, are they going to say how thick the leather on the tip has to be. I have my playing cue tips cut down to 60 thou. right from the start.

jongreve
05-22-2009, 12:14 AM
No biggie, time to make some granite (or other material) tips. lol

JAW725
05-22-2009, 12:18 AM
Hello, is anybody going to answer the ? about bk2 tips being good or not, and the ?, are they going to say how thick the leather on the tip has to be. I have my playing cue tips cut down to 60 thou. right from the start.

No, the standard tip for the BK2 is phenolic along with many other Breakers and J/Bs. I myself have a J/B with a phenolic tip and I may just put an OB Break shaft on it ( depending on the taper/tip width ) or just buy a Samsara J/B. The OB Break Shaft apparently comes with a Samsara tip that is a hard leather, no phenolic.
I'm sure a lot of cue comp. will be pissed at this one.

Formula7
05-22-2009, 01:36 AM
Bah, I hate jumping. No offense to jumpers, just not my thing. Anyhow, I'm a kicker myself, btw, you can use any tip to kick, and not that I masse too much out of neccessity, but you can do that with leather, too.

People didn't always have phenolic, or break cues, or G-10, etc. They played pool just as damn well before all that. We lived without all this stuff, once upon a time. Maybe I'm just speaking nonsense, but that's just what I think.

RiverCity
05-22-2009, 01:41 AM
Take a hard water buffalo tip, press it in a vise and presto.... you have a leather tip that is damn near as hard as phenolic. It shouldnt be that big of a deal considering that we are talking about bar box play here.
Chuck

mongoose-
05-22-2009, 04:14 AM
so does this ban affect BCA or ACS leagues?

It is going to be a BCAPL rule. I know we are not going with it in our local ACS league but I will bet you will see other leagues follow suit. I remember years back when jump cues were banned in a lot of events but they made a comeback... this may pass by as well in time. I can't say as I buy the reason it is harming equipment though... these tips have been out for some time. I would think we would have heard a lot more about damage by now.

rlw
05-22-2009, 04:47 AM
For those that dont know the BCA has banned phenolic tips, does this also mean white diamond tips, G-10, tiger x-breaker and others? It is unclear at this moment.

There is another thread talking about this topic but I feel it is necessary to make the wheel squeek a little louder so that it may get some immediate attention.

DONT BE SILENT AZB!!!!!

I beg every self respecting jumper kicker and masse player to say a few words here to try to get the word to the BCA officials that this is rediculous. I cant believe they are goingt o take away so many options from the players. Now im gunna have to have several shafts for different competittions. To suit this new rule that I hope doesnt catch on. If we allowed this type of thing everytime some one wants to argue bringing back the old heritage of the game we would still all be playing on hand carved wooden slates.

BCA I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR RULLING AND WILL NOT PUT AWAY MY PHENOLICS!!! NOW I WILL JUST HAVE TO FIND AWAY TO MAKE A FENOLIC FOR USE IN YOUR EVENTS!!!

Keep the ban!!! make it tougher!!!

ne14tennis
05-22-2009, 05:19 AM
so does this ban affect BCA or ACS leagues?

My god people.....read the title of the thread. Does it say ACS anywhere

ne14tennis
05-22-2009, 05:25 AM
As long as everyone else in the tourney is doing the same thing, what's the big deal?

It's not ALWAYS the power of the break. As folks have seen in the most recent ten ball tournament, it's a variation of speed and position.

I have both a phenolic and leather BK2 and honestly, the leather tip gets used 4-1 over the phenolic because of the control factor.

Maybe there's a political issue here between the BCA and Predator, who knows. It would be a dumb one if it is.
Aye chihuahua.

Predator is only one company. There are dozens of sticks with Phenolic.

In the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of players world wide in and out of various leagues that this won't effect. I think it's less than 100,000 players that play BCAPL.

rburgoyne
05-22-2009, 05:31 AM
The original BK had leather, the BK2 has phenolic. I don't think there is a single break or break/jump cue out there that doesn't come standard with a phenolic tip these days.

Well first, I don't play BCAL or BCA, or ACS or whatever league this is. I think Supernva said it perfectly though, any quality break cue these days comes with a phenolic tip. So players now are going to have to get new tips and possibly ferrules put on their existing or newly purchased cues. Doesn't seem like a very friendly league to me.

I have heard of G10 tips damaging the balls (although I use one on my jumper and have never seen it) but a phenolic tip? No way. A player can tear the cloth with a hard leather tip just as easy as they can with a phenolic tip.

And for those that say the game was played years ago with only leather tips available, how many of you are using Predator or OB1 shafts? Should those be banned as well since they weren't available years ago? Just like a phenolic tip helps breaking, those shafts help players with english and draw/follow. As technology improves, equipment comes available that makes certain aspects of the game easier for people. Just my 2 cents worth. :)

jrt30004
05-22-2009, 05:37 AM
Well first, I don't play BCAL or BCA, or ACS or whatever league this is. I think Supernva said it perfectly though, any quality break cue these days comes with a phenolic tip. So players now are going to have to get new tips and possibly ferrules put on their existing or newly purchased cues. Doesn't seem like a very friendly league to me.

I have heard of G10 tips damaging the balls (although I use one on my jumper and have never seen it) but a phenolic tip? No way. A player can tear the cloth with a hard leather tip just as easy as they can with a phenolic tip.

And for those that say the game was played years ago with only leather tips available, how many of you are using Predator or OB1 shafts? Should those be banned as well since they weren't available years ago? Just like a phenolic tip helps breaking, those shafts help players with english and draw/follow. As technology improves, equipment comes available that makes certain aspects of the game easier for people. Just my 2 cents worth. :)

good post. rep to you.

Trent
05-22-2009, 06:39 AM
lets make a league for all you billiard tru-ist's have no LD shafts use thick cloth which requires a better stroke and is harder to play on so you say, :eek:only leather tips not layered either use old plastic or polyester balls and use rules from lets say 20 to 30 years ago and then you can all join there and talk abour how much better and more true your game is with the accuracy and skill of leather tips and solid rock maple shafts on thick slow cloth and you can pump yourselfs up and the other players who are open to change can play in the new leagues and it can all be seperate.... sound like a plan???

why move forward or use new technology whats the point????

catscradle
05-22-2009, 07:11 AM
For those that dont know the BCA has banned phenolic tips, does this also mean white diamond tips, G-10, tiger x-breaker and others? It is unclear at this moment.

There is another thread talking about this topic but I feel it is necessary to make the wheel squeek a little louder so that it may get some immediate attention.

DONT BE SILENT AZB!!!!!

I beg every self respecting jumper kicker and masse player to say a few words here to try to get the word to the BCA officials that this is rediculous. I cant believe they are goingt o take away so many options from the players. Now im gunna have to have several shafts for different competittions. To suit this new rule that I hope doesnt catch on. If we allowed this type of thing everytime some one wants to argue bringing back the old heritage of the game we would still all be playing on hand carved wooden slates.

BCA I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR RULLING AND WILL NOT PUT AWAY MY PHENOLICS!!! NOW I WILL JUST HAVE TO FIND AWAY TO MAKE A FENOLIC FOR USE IN YOUR EVENTS!!!

Woohoo, I agree with it 100%. Ban them. It means I'll probably never be able to jump again, but I support this decision absolutely. I'll gladly see my jump cues and phenolic break shafts sit on my rack collecting dust forever. I use phenolic now because you have to, but I see it like the 3 point shot in basketball, aluminum bats and the "DH" in baseball, and regular season overtimes in football (tie is a legit score); they should all be eliminated.

rayjay
05-22-2009, 07:30 AM
I don't buy the excuse that phenolic damages equipment more than any other type of tip. But because most of the break cues used today have phenolic tips, I do think that there may be cause for celebration among the merchants who are members of the BCA (not the BCAPL).
:p

bigshooter
05-22-2009, 07:33 AM
The sky is falling... how did we manage to play before phenolic? :confused:

I am guessing no one will quit the game over it.

NewStroke
05-22-2009, 08:01 AM
Whatt kind of tip is on the Predator BK cue?

Anybody make a break stick that comes with leather nowdays?

I play with an OB break cue, nice hard leather tip and I get good ball distribution. Best cue I have ever broke a rack with.

LosOsosCues
05-22-2009, 08:10 AM
Look at it this way there never going to outlaw leather so once you adapt you tecnique you will be set for life.

NewStroke
05-22-2009, 08:14 AM
Stainless steel balls with bells inside each ball.

CocoboloCowboy
05-22-2009, 08:29 AM
Honestly letters, and e-mails to the BCA (http://www.playbca.com/Contact/ContactUs/tabid/202/Default.aspx) may help, <<<<<----- There is a link for addreses, and e-mails. USE it!!!!

djpstacked03
05-22-2009, 08:51 AM
Damaged cue balls....... I dont believe it. So now that everyone has there jump/break cues with phenolic tips they wont be able to use them. Oh goody. Must be a marketing scheme. Now soon there will be tons of new jump cues out on the market with no phenolic tips. I know it takes more skill to jump without phenolic but why now? Too many old timers views obviosly had to do with this one. It sucks, but we will have to live with what a minority of people decided what is best for the league. Don't be surprised if all the other leagues follow suit. Damn just when I thought I was done purchasing cues............

Trent
05-22-2009, 09:11 AM
i have a jump cue with a wood tip So HAHAHAHAHAHAHA take that!! and im going to make a break cue with a ........ carbon fiber tip next so hahahaha lol

ok Maybe were looking at this the wrong way ????

Maybe aramith needs to look into there balls and figure out why they cant withstand the break??? :eek::eek:

JasonCrugar
05-22-2009, 10:03 AM
i have a jump cue with a wood tip So HAHAHAHAHAHAHA take that!! and im going to make a break cue with a ........ carbon fiber tip next so hahahaha lol

ok Maybe were looking at this the wrong way ????

Maybe aramith needs to look into there balls and figure out why they cant withstand the break??? :eek::eek:

if you guys dont like the way they run their ship.... maybe it's time to change vessels

BVal
05-22-2009, 10:19 AM
Damaged cue balls....... I dont believe it. So now that everyone has there jump/break cues with phenolic tips they wont be able to use them. Oh goody. Must be a marketing scheme. Now soon there will be tons of new jump cues out on the market with no phenolic tips. I know it takes more skill to jump without phenolic but why now? Too many old timers views obviosly had to do with this one. It sucks, but we will have to live with what a minority of people decided what is best for the league. Don't be surprised if all the other leagues follow suit. Damn just when I thought I was done purchasing cues............
Is this what you really think? There are already tons of jumps cues out on the market with out pheniloc tips. Also you shouldn't have to purchase any more cues. All you should have to do it get a new tip put on it and at worst a new ferrule and tip. But if want to be over dramatic then go buy new cues.

If you don't believe it maybe you wouldn't mind picking up the tab for the damaged cue balls instead of the BCAPL. It is obviously not true so it wouldn't cost you anything right? :eek:

BVal

djpstacked03
05-22-2009, 10:31 AM
Is this what you really think? There are already tons of jumps cues out on the market with out pheniloc tips. Also you shouldn't have to purchase any more cues. All you should have to do it get a new tip put on it and at worst a new ferrule and tip. But if want to be over dramatic then go buy new cues.

If you don't believe it maybe you wouldn't mind picking up the tab for the damaged cue balls instead of the BCAPL. It is obviously not true so it wouldn't cost you anything right? :eek:

BVal

Im just saying that it sucks. Especially if you just bought a cue with a phenolic tip. I dont want to spend any more money if I dont have to. I'd like to see some of these damaged cue balls that have been spoken of. Please someone..... lets see the proof. Are they being chipped or what? I have jumped the cue ball with a phenolic tip several times on my table at home and I have'nt noticed any damage. I think this ban is just silly. IMO of course.

cueman
05-22-2009, 10:31 AM
this rule is crap. Ban the g10's thats fine, but why ALL phenolic tips? and I dont believe that load of BS about them hurting the balls either. I practice jumping and breaking for hours on end at home and my cue ball still looks like new. and im using phenolic and G10.
I have to disagree with you on this one. I noticed over 10 years ago I was installing a lot of phenolic tips that they put marks on the cue ball. That never changed. The Canvas Based material does not seem to do as much damage as the G10 and the Linen Based material but it does still damage the cue balls. I have been using a leather tip on my jump break cues for a few years now and am happy with the results. The leagues banned phenolic tips in the past and they will probably ban them again. This will just create a market for treated leather tips that are almost as hard as phenolic and less likely to damage the cue ball. I install such a tip if any local players wants to have one put on.

rbpwrd240
05-22-2009, 11:18 AM
I feel attacked here. People your opinion on my stroke or my playing is simply that. An opinion. I can and have used leather for all things pool. So I can and will go back to fit for the BCAL events.

I was asking for help from all the kickers and masse artist's becouse those shots much like jumping are part of safty and aggressive pool game. Next they might say no kicking becouse its adding extra wear to the rails, or no masse becouse its using to much chalk. I was asking for your support as part of pools educated players. I hope all those that say they hope jumping leaves the game have actually sat down and practiced jumping. It is another part of your game and something I think every player should know how to do.

CONSIDER THIS!!!!
I dont think the BCAL is going broke paying for cue balls and I also think that a good player should have a great amount of knowledge on equipment and there effects. For consistency and power I like my phenolics. I dont use G-10 and I just got a white diamond. I dont like the BCAL limiting a player in any way shape or form. Next they will get rid of uncoinventional strokes and fast players and slow players and young players and too old players and power players then the game will be boring and probobly suffer for it. Im not saying phenolics are the best but for me at my level they were a very good option. I will always be looking for the next good option. The BCAL charges us to play where is that money going? Doesnt it pay for expensis like this? You cant take on of those dollars and use it for cue balls? Im sure sponsorship and advertising contracts the world over could handle this situation. The more I think of it actually the more It smells.

I mean no disraspect to anyone here but I do want to make some noise. So make some with me.

Tom In Cincy
05-22-2009, 11:41 AM
You've made your noise.

The BCAPL has made their noise. Rules and equipment specs are in the hands of those that also pay the bills and offer the largest yearly payout event for amateurs to play pool and have a chance to win $$$$.

You can chose to make more noise and you can chose to not partake in any BCAPL event as a protest.

This is all the noise you will get from me.



I mean no disraspect to anyone here but I do want to make some noise. So make some with me.

td873
05-22-2009, 11:43 AM
We are the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). You are certainly entitled to your opinion. We (BCAPL) are not going to change our minds. The new rule book has been printed and goes into effect June 1. If you are caught using it during our events the penalties will be severe. Our referees will be looking for phenolic tips. Will it be worth it to lose a match because you don't like the rules?

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League
What exactly is the rule? Where can I see the new rulebook?

-td

td873
05-22-2009, 11:49 AM
We are the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). You are certainly entitled to your opinion. We (BCAPL) are not going to change our minds. The new rule book has been printed and goes into effect June 1. If you are caught using it during our events the penalties will be severe. Our referees will be looking for phenolic tips. Will it be worth it to lose a match because you don't like the rules?

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League
double post. sorry.
-td

muddawg
05-22-2009, 11:50 AM
I feel attacked here. People your opinion on my stroke or my playing is simply that. An opinion. I can and have used leather for all things pool. So I can and will go back to fit for the BCAL events.

I was asking for help from all the kickers and masse artist's becouse those shots much like jumping are part of safty and aggressive pool game. Next they might say no kicking becouse its adding extra wear to the rails, or no masse becouse its using to much chalk.

ooh! ooh! ooh! then... maybe they'll say we can't play pool at all because it wears out the cloth! LOL, please don't feel like I'm attacking you, but I seriously hope you are kidding w/ this statement...

I was asking for your support as part of pools educated players. I hope all those that say they hope jumping leaves the game have actually sat down and practiced jumping. It is another part of your game and something I think every player should know how to do.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read/heard anyone talk about eliminating jumping from the game entirely... all I've read is people saying that you can achieve the same results using leather tips as opposed to phenolic tips...

Next they will get rid of uncoinventional strokes and fast players and slow players and young players and too old players and power players then the game will be boring and probobly suffer for it.

Again... I hope you are kidding and don't seriously believe this... those are some pretty radical statements.

Tom In Cincy
05-22-2009, 11:59 AM
On the BCAPL website www.playbca.com there will probably be a link to download the June 2009 rules in a PDF format. The rule will probably be under equipment specifications.

What exactly is the rule? Where can I see the new rulebook?

-td

td873
05-22-2009, 12:09 PM
On the BCAPL website www.playbca.com there will probably be a link to download the June 2009 rules in a PDF format. The rule will probably be under equipment specifications.
Nope. Which is why my post was directed to Bill.

-td

n10spool
05-22-2009, 12:10 PM
If you have a great stroke you dont need bandaids like a phenolic tip all it does is even out the playing field so those that cant hit the ball feel they have a chance now to break like someone who has mastered the break shot. If you got a stroke your okay if you cant stroke then practice more and lay off the bandaids/ cash cows products not intended to help the gameas a sport but to gross fast cash.

I think to see who the great players are now, is to go back to stevens cloth and leather tips. Mechanical bridges would be okay equal to all.

Next would be to lay out standards for tables which will need more research time I think.

FAST_N_LOOSE
05-22-2009, 12:12 PM
nope. Which is why my post was directed to bill.

-td

i'm curious as well as to how it is worded...... Does it ban all non-leather tips? Or just "phenolic"

break cue only? Or all cues that could be used?

All this whining about a rule, that to my knowledge hasn't been seen yet.

JoseV
05-22-2009, 12:21 PM
So do I understand this correctly that if you have a separate jump cue, any tip will be OK on the jump cue? Also is the Predator BK2 tip OK? (not sure what it's made of).

Thanks,

Dave

You will have to change the tip on the BK2. But You have to keep in mind when Re-placing the tip make sure you keep the carbon fibre pad on Someone Swede in the river broke his shaft becuse he re-placed his tip and did not keep that carbon fibre thing on.

Tom In Cincy
05-22-2009, 12:26 PM
You'll have to wait until JUNE 1st for the new rules. Just 9 more days maybe sooner.

You can always call Bill Stock at the BCAPL offices at 702-719-7665. A very like-able person with a long history of billiards as a very good player, referee, tournament director and the authority for equipment specification for the BCAPL.

Nope. Which is why my post was directed to Bill.

-td

Cuebacca
05-22-2009, 12:42 PM
If you don't believe it maybe you wouldn't mind picking up the tab for the damaged cue balls instead of the BCAPL. It is obviously not true so it wouldn't cost you anything right? :eek:

BVal

I still don't understand why they are replacing cue balls like crazy just for aesthetic reasons. To me it seems equivalent to replacing the cloth because of burn marks. Like burn marks, the cue ball marks are just there, and they don't bother anyone; very easy to ignore with no consequence. They get reset when the cloth eventually wears out and gets replaced, just like they would on a cue ball.

A little elaboration from the BCAPL isn't too much to ask for, IMO, given how much its members sacrifice to participate in their events.

n10spool
05-22-2009, 12:56 PM
Next we will have spring loaded rod like on a pinball machine to be a legal break fair to everyone. Heck we can even bring back the Sardo rack.

n10spool
05-22-2009, 01:12 PM
the other option is to go titanium with a center hole drilled out stuffed with leather.

rayjay
05-22-2009, 01:15 PM
If you don't believe it maybe you wouldn't mind picking up the tab for the damaged cue balls instead of the BCAPL.
BVal

Does the BCAPL really pay for damaged cue balls? Any stats or even ideas on what this has cost them since phenolic tips were introduced around 10 years ago? I've never seen it in my league, but I have only been in it for 5 years so it may be more prevalent in others than mine. I do think, though, that there will be many leaguers buying new break cues in the long run rather than replace the tip and/or ferrule. This would pump quite a bit of cash into a struggling billiard retail economy. JMO.
:p

Pushout
05-22-2009, 01:21 PM
QQ...use leather and learn to kick.

BVal
05-22-2009, 01:22 PM
Does the BCAPL really pay for damaged cue balls? Any stats or even ideas on what this has cost them since phenolic tips were introduced around 10 years ago? I've never seen it in my league, but I have only been in it for 5 years so it may be more prevalent in others than mine. I do think, though, that there will be many leaguers buying new break cues in the long run rather than replace the tip and/or ferrule. This would pump quite a bit of cash into a struggling billiard retail economy. JMO.
:p
The damage to the cue balls was one of the reasons stated for banning the tips. I don't know the figures nor would I attempt to guess. I would guess that the figure is significant enough for them to make this decision. Even if they don't pay for the cue balls and Diamond does. They work very close with each other and I am sure they want to keep the costs down for everyone involved in putting on their events.

As for people going out and buying new cues instead of replacing the tip and/or ferrule. That just doesn't make sense to me at all. Maybe people will just use it as an excuse to buy a new cue but anyone who really goes out and buys one specifically because of that is kind of strange imo.

BVal

MitchAlsup
05-22-2009, 01:29 PM
I have scuff marks on a brand new Arimith super pro cue ball from a simple miscue on a well chalked hard (layerd) tip. It is easy to imagine what a bad hit with my jump cue could do to it.

But, I have no problem with the new BCAPL rule. The difference in "jumpability" between a typical jump cue with phenolic tip and that same cue with a XX-hard tip is unmeasurable. In fact, the XX-hard tip is considerably easier to jump-draw or jump-massť than the phenolic tip is to do the same.

Nor do I think that one can get a useful power advantage on the break between a 95+ durometer tip versus a phenolic tip--a fraction of a MPH; maybe, some actually useful gain; doubtful. The same cannot be said with tips measuring 85 and softer on the durrometer, here, performance is actually lost.

rayjay
05-22-2009, 01:31 PM
I agree, it is kind of strange to replace the cue when you can replace the tip/ferrule, but I think it will happen. I'm going to put a milk dud on my Gulyassy/Samsara on top of the phenolic ferrule and see if that flies, but if not I may sell it and buy a new one. I know I'll take a beating on the old one though. And I also agree, for a lot of people it may just be the right excuse to get a new break cue! I see there's already a new thread asking for opinions on what is a good new break cue with a leather tip....
:p

Cuebacca
05-22-2009, 01:38 PM
As for people going out and buying new cues instead of replacing the tip and/or ferrule. That just doesn't make sense to me at all. Maybe people will just use it as an excuse to buy a new cue but anyone who really goes out and buys one specifically because of that is kind of strange imo.

BVal

It's actually pretty simple; if someone prefers phenolic and the vast majority of their competitions allow phenolic, it makes sense that they would want to keep a phenolic tip on one of their shafts.

ne14tennis
05-22-2009, 01:40 PM
I don't know which thread and which poster stated it but.......where do you people get the notion that BCAPL or Diamond pays for cue balls or cloth due to phenolic tip damage????

If it happens in a tournament, the table provider pays for it. He may have insurance (I doubt it) or he may attempt to recoup it from the TD (I doubt it), it is what it is. That's the price for owing a business that provides pool tables.

If it's a pool hall, the owner buys it.

If it's leagues that play out of bars, the bar owner or the owner of the company that provides the tables pay for it.

It's that simple

Do you think a bowling alley that has Brunswick lanes allows a new type of ball that ends up damaging the lanes or ball returns goes back to Brunswick and says you need to buy me new lanes cuz these balls are wrecking my equipment.....NO!!

The options are, a harder, more wear resistant pool ball material needs to be made or they need to ban the substance that is causing the damage. The BCAPL chose the latter.

Rules change all the time in every sport and sometimes they go back to what worked best when they find something new didn't work out like they thought.

It's called "Adapt and Overcome"

I post on here quite a bit, but sometimes when I read some of the crap that people come up with I wonder.......am I dumber for having read that?

mooseman
05-22-2009, 01:44 PM
If you have one of one piece phenolic ferrules/tips, I would cut the dome off so you have a flat surface and add a good WB tip to your existing shaft. Heck even the XBreaker could have the G10 cut off and replaced with a good WB tip just as you normally replace a tip. Keep the fiber pad in place. Or if you have a phenolic tip installed cut the phenolic tip down and leave a little of the phenolic in place as a pad and install a WB tip on that. I did something similar on an older break shaft I had but installed a SuperPro tip.

Of course I would recommend having a competent repairman doing the job.

If you have to buy a shaft then consider the OB Break shaft.

So many ways to skin a cat in this case with minimum cost.

BVal
05-22-2009, 01:45 PM
It's actually pretty simple; if someone prefers phenolic and the vast majority of their competitions allow phenolic, it makes sense that they would want to keep a phenolic tip on one of their shafts.
It obvoiusly makes sense to keep a phenolic if you don't play in the BCAPL but if you do play in the BCAPL then it doesn't make sense. I guess unless you want to use a different stroke for each league. It makes more sense to me to master one stroke instead of two.

BVal

stormshadow1
05-22-2009, 01:50 PM
It obvoiusly makes sense to keep a phenolic if you don't play in the BCAPL but if you do play in the BCAPL then it doesn't make sense. I guess unless you want to use a different stroke for each league. It makes more sense to me to master one stroke instead of two.

BValI agree!!:thumbup:

Cuebacca
05-22-2009, 02:04 PM
It obvoiusly makes sense to keep a phenolic if you don't play in the BCAPL but if you do play in the BCAPL then it doesn't make sense. I guess unless you want to use a different stroke for each league. It makes more sense to me to master one stroke instead of two.

BVal

It really depends on more than just "if you play in the BCAPL" or not. I play in the BCAPL, but I would hardly let that define me as a pool player. Before I rush to chop off my break tip, I'd rather see how this plays out. If the other competitions I play in don't follow suit, I see no reason to throw out some of my gear at this time.

There are way too many variables already in this game to hope for just "one stroke to master". Even just switching from 9' Gold Crowns to 7' Diamonds requires the ability to adapt; one should be able to adjust various aspects of his game fairly quickly if he hopes to stay competitive under all the conditions we face as pool players.

n10spool
05-22-2009, 02:12 PM
Bann the phenolic and non leather anything... most phenolic especialy the ones that came from overseas chip and leave little pieces on the cloth causing to bals to roll eratict and the chips to cut the cloth. Most people dont break right they break down and drag the tip across trhe felt wearing it out faster and leaving a huge divit at the headstring line.

Name some pro's that use phenolic tips in one-pocket, 14.1, 3 cusion; it's mostly 7,8,9 ball that use it

I have a strong break but my 9 ball game sucks needs more practice but 8 ball and 1 pocket I play preety good.

12squared
05-22-2009, 02:15 PM
Name some pro's that use phenolic tips in one-pocket, 14.1, 3 cusion;...

Point taken but are you serious about the statement above?

n10spool
05-22-2009, 02:17 PM
Dave which part

n10spool
05-22-2009, 02:18 PM
I dont know any pros that use phenolic in 1 pocket or 14.1 most pros use them for breaking 7,8 and 9 ball only.

all the other games they use leather to play with and some use leather to break with.

ethier everyone go phenolic no leather on any cue or go leather ne phenolic on any cue this way the playing field is even... thoose with the best stroke win

12squared
05-22-2009, 02:26 PM
Dave which part

Of course those games mentioned will not use, nor need, phenolic tips. They do not need to power the break like rotation games plus you can shoot at any ball on the table, not just the lowest numbered ball so jumping would be at a minimum if it allowed at all. it just struck me funny that those games were mentioned as part of an argument. I should have used a funny face when I posted, something like this :wink: or :eek: or :confused:.

Sorry for the confusion.

Dave

12squared
05-22-2009, 02:31 PM
You will have to change the tip on the BK2. But You have to keep in mind when Re-placing the tip make sure you keep the carbon fibre pad on Someone Swede in the river broke his shaft becuse he re-placed his tip and did not keep that carbon fibre thing on.

Thank you!

n10spool
05-22-2009, 04:55 PM
Of course those games mentioned will not use, nor need, phenolic tips. They do not need to power the break like rotation games plus you can shoot at any ball on the table, not just the lowest numbered ball so jumping would be at a minimum if it allowed at all. it just struck me funny that those games were mentioned as part of an argument. I should have used a funny face when I posted, something like this :wink: or :eek: or :confused:.

Sorry for the confusion.

Dave

It's alright dave I look at from a different aspect lets say Dennis accullo and Shane van boing are playing 10 ball even who has the stronger break? now what the difference both with leather tips? now how about both with phenolic tips?

Now look at like a,b,c,d, players a has a strong break leather tip and can run out player c needs phenolic tip to get there break up to spend [ lack of practice ] play c plays combo and never runs out cant control his rock.

Therefore phenolic tips are just bandaids to make a C player feel he can compete withthe a players. C player still wont practice cause he feels he mastered something and can when now.

Craig

rbpwrd240
05-23-2009, 12:57 AM
I dont know any pros that use phenolic in 1 pocket or 14.1 most pros use them for breaking 7,8 and 9 ball only.



Exactly, the use for phenolic isnt there for 14.1 and 1 pocket. These games dont utilize the same principles as 9 and 10 ball. There is no need to shatter the racks in 14.1 and 1 pocket. The need for shattering a 10 ball rack became very obviuse this last week during the bartram schmidt match and the predator 10 ball. The added rigidity in the phenolic 1 piece ferrule and tip combos allows for a more powerfull brake end of story. If the pros were using phenolics on there cues how can some one argue? Obviusly they think its a great product, as well as a huge majority of cue makers and players. Even those that dont jump brake with phenolics. However, most that dont jump are the first to agree with this new rulling. I hope it doesnt last more then the year.:thumbup:

I went out today and got one of my B/J shafts fitted with a shorter ferrule and an X-hard tip. I had them bring the tip half way down for a harder hit. I went out and played with it tonight. I can still get the action off the rack that phenolic allowed however now Im working harder to do it and in multiple days of competition play it could severly affect my playing. I was still able to jump most balls but the feel is very diffrent and now I have more to practice. Just to get my percentages back.

This is only my personal experience. I am no pro. I do consider myself a die hard fan.

shooter50014
05-23-2009, 02:05 AM
the ban is probally more for people with 26+ MPR breaks

I would never think a jump would cause harm to the cue ball. Its not a speed shot.

I wonder if any cue repair men were in on the vote since noone will give a reason of how many cue balls they had to replace due to not rolling right. Maybe this year they will do away with those $5 cue balls that are crap and use red dots

n10spool
05-23-2009, 02:24 AM
The quality of the cue ball is not the same as before thats problem #1 #2 is the fact that alot of phenolic tips especialy from overseas crumble and leave debris on the table wearing out the cloth faster.you got

pool players

bar bangers

kids

adults

serious players

and pro's playing on the same tables everyday in a poolhall in a tournament room its a little different pros, amatures, league players all different styles of play on a table.

its always the equipment never a player there all experts at the game all equal in skill.

Craig

CocoboloCowboy
05-28-2009, 03:00 PM
We are the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). You are certainly entitled to your opinion. We (BCAPL) are not going to change our minds. The new rule book has been printed and goes into effect June 1. If you are caught using it during our events the penalties will be severe. Our referees will be looking for phenolic tips. Will it be worth it to lose a match because you don't like the rules?

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League


IMHO many will find another place to play, and the BCAPL will loose people at their events. Think about a half dozen lost entries will cost the BCAPL more than a few Red Dot Cue Balls. JMHO!:eek:

mongoose-
05-28-2009, 03:04 PM
IMHO many will find another place to play, and the BCAPL will loose people at their events. Think about a half dozen lost entries will cost the BCAPL more than a few Red Dot Cue Balls. JMHO!:eek:

LOL don't say that... the APA will be using this as a sales pitch to recruit players.

BVal
05-28-2009, 03:06 PM
IMHO many will find another place to play, and the BCAPL will loose people at their events. Think about a half dozen lost entries will cost the BCAPL more than a few Red Dot Cue Balls. JMHO!:eek:
You say it like they will be losing you from their league when in fact you don't even play in any league at all EVER.

BVal

DogsPlayingPool
05-28-2009, 03:22 PM
IMHO many will find another place to play, and the BCAPL will loose people at their events. Think about a half dozen lost entries will cost the BCAPL more than a few Red Dot Cue Balls. JMHO!:eek:

I have my doubts about this. You really think, aside from a few bangers who's main ability to compete hinges on using a phenolic tip for a superior break, that there will be any significant exodus of players from the BCAPL? I disagree. Frankly, I see it as a non-issue.

CocoboloCowboy
05-28-2009, 03:30 PM
I have my doubts about this. You really think, aside from a few bangers who's main ability to compete hinges on using a phenolic tip for a superior break, that there will be any significant exodus of players from the BCAPL? I disagree. Frankly, I see it as a non-issue.




The use of phenolic tip has been going on for several years, and all of a sudden the phenolic tip is some evil instrument of destruction. Like I said I would bet more than a few players will stay away from the BCAPL Event in Sin City in 2010.

Maybe the problem is with the Cue Balls, and i wonder what the rockwell Hardness of the Phenolic Material is, and what the Rockwell hardness of the Cue Ball is?

Like I said Phenolic has been use for break tip for many years, and all of a sudden it is causing BALL DAMAGE? Very Strange.:wink:

DogsPlayingPool
05-28-2009, 03:39 PM
Whatever. It's still a non-issue in my opinion. I just don't see many who enjoy BCA league play, the competition and the evenings out with friends giving it up for this issue, that's all.

Yancey
05-28-2009, 03:39 PM
First off, BCA or not:

1. How does phenolic tips, made out of the same material as a phenolic balls, damage phenolic balls? It doesnt, unless the phenolic tips are made out of a different phenolic than are in premium grade Aramith Phenolic balls (not cheap balls).

2. I understand the ban on G-10 tips as they are HARDER than phenolic so they can damage another phenolic ball.

3. ALOT of people have spent money buying phenolic jump sticks and break sticks and have wasted money doing so.

4. Personally, I would just soon provide my OWN phenolic premium grade Aramith balls for my matches, tournaments or not. That way I know they are clean, high quality and the like. So room owners and directors cant say I am damaging their equipment.

To be honest, I won't play in any event personally if they ban my phenolic tips. Tournaments are not the only facet I enjoy in this game anyway, it is matches and I dont match up with anyone that want allow phenolic tips or play in any tournament that won't allow the same.

Cuebacca
05-28-2009, 03:39 PM
I think that if the BCAPL wants to ban phenolic, then they should also ban hand powder. Having that crap get all over the table is much more of a distraction than than some tiny cracks in the ball that you don't even notice while playing. The powder probably affects the game more too. I still have my doubts that the tiny cracks affect how the balls play at all.

Cuebacca
05-28-2009, 03:48 PM
First off, BCA or not:

1. How does phenolic tips, made out of the same material as a phenolic balls, damage phenolic balls? It doesnt, unless the phenolic tips are made out of a different phenolic than are in premium grade Aramith Phenolic balls (not cheap balls).

Power breaking with a phenolic tip does cause cracks in the cue ball, IMO. The question I keep trying to understand is why do these cracks matter?

Yancey
05-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Sorry, but I am jumping on your bandwagon.
The Billiard Congress of America can set the rules as they see fit.
I can also chose to NOT participate in any of their events.
Phenolic is the SAME material that good Aramith balls are made of so dont tell me they are damaging the balls.
Because owners buy CHEAP balls for play in some rooms is why I only go to quality pool establishments.
Let me ask you, the improvements in billiards should be used just like the new cures in medicine are used. If you want to live in the dark ages, go back there.
Are you thinking of boycotting? ABSOLUTELY all BCA events.

IplayBAD
05-28-2009, 04:38 PM
What about a phenolic tip that is leather infused??? and does this rule also ban the use of a white diamnod (phenolic material I believe) on a jump cue?

ceebee
05-28-2009, 04:49 PM
We just made 6 Break Cues (the BreakRAK Series # III) with the Tiger J/B Leather tip. I will have pics very soon.

The cue is Brazilian Rosewood with a gorgeous curly birdsye maple grip handle & bushka stitched rings at A-B-C-D-E. The shaft is flat laminate maple & has a 5/8 ferrule.

The length is 58" long & the tip diameter is app'x 13.4 mm. They weigh in at about 19oz. & come with JPs... The cue is made by Auerbach Custom Cues.

Richardson
05-28-2009, 05:56 PM
We just made 6 Break Cues (the BreakRAK Series # III) with the Tiger J/B Leather tip. I will have pics very soon.

The cue is Brazilian Rosewood with a gorgeous curly birdsye maple grip handle & bushka stitched rings at A-B-C-D-E. The shaft is flat laminate maple & has a 5/8 ferrule.

The length is 58" long & the tip diameter is app'x 13.4 mm. They weigh in at about 19oz. & come with JPs... The cue is made by Auerbach Custom Cues.


LOL ^ ^ ^

I will be going to the VNEA nationals next year. I will not be told to not use something thats ive been using for 5+ years, lol.

PoolSharkAllen
06-14-2009, 08:23 PM
You'll have to wait until JUNE 1st for the new rules. Just 9 more days maybe sooner.


In checking the playbca.com web site, it still shows the old rule in the 2008-2009 handbook:
"The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, pliable or phenolic material."

In regards to Bill Stock's earlier posting, before the BCAPL referees start penalizing players for using phenolic tips, they should publish the new rules first.

BRKNRUN
06-14-2009, 08:47 PM
I wonder if Obama had something to do with this???? As part of his stimulus plan he forced the BCAPL to require leather tips....This will kick start the economy for sure.....LOL

LILJOHN30
06-14-2009, 08:51 PM
I use a Superpro on my player and there are a lot of nights when I don't even get my break cue out of my case. I have also used my player to jump balls.

BVal

I got a super pro on my gilbert j/b and like it:thumbup:

ftgokie
06-14-2009, 09:02 PM
I say ban them...I have seen cue balls with tiny cracks in them from phenolic tips...if its messing up the equipment..I say BAN it! Find something else to use....use a leather tip on your break cue....

jersey jer
06-14-2009, 09:31 PM
I think more tourneys and room owners should ban all tips but leather. and ban jump cues too. ive used em, dont like em. do they work sure.. so what. i feel you should learn how to play. not buy somthing that makes one facet of the game ezer for you. if i learned to play you safe you should LEARN how to get out of it.

being safed and going to your case to pull out a jump cue, in my eyes, is the same as if you were bowling and someone on the other team had to hit a 7-10 split, goes to his other bag and pulls out a 4 effin foot wide bowling ball and says " wow im sure glad these 7-10 split balls arent banned.."

and as for break cues: having a seperate break cue was primarily to keep from mushrooming the tip on your player. If you really break soo badly that you feel you need a tip as hard or harder than the ball maybe billiard sports arent for you. besides most people who feel they need a phenolic break tip dont realize they are harder to break "well" with. if your break sucks with leather then its gonna suck with phenolic.(it might just sound a little louder).

i have an x-breaker shaft and put a leather tip it (hercules) and it breaks better now than ever b4. and as for jumping, im all for jump shots but do it with your playing cue. I do.

mrgoochio
06-14-2009, 09:41 PM
I think more tourneys and room owners should ban all tips but leather. and ban jump cues too. ive used em, dont like em. do they work sure.. so what. i feel you should learn how to play. not buy somthing that makes one facet of the game ezer for you. if i learned to play you safe you should LEARN how to get out of it.

being safed and going to your case to pull out a jump cue, in my eyes, is the same as if you were bowling and someone on the other team had to hit a 7-10 split, goes to his other bag and pulls out a 4 effin foot wide bowling ball and says " wow im sure glad these 7-10 split balls arent banned.."

and as for break cues: having a seperate break cue was primarily to keep from mushrooming the tip on your player. If you really break soo badly that you feel you need a tip as hard or harder than the ball maybe billiard sports arent for you. besides most people who feel they need a phenolic break tip dont realize they are harder to break "well" with. if your break sucks with leather then its gonna suck with phenolic.(it might just sound a little louder).

i have an x-breaker shaft and put a leather tip it (hercules) and it breaks better now than ever b4. and as for jumping, im all for jump shots but do it with your playing cue. I do.

Sorry but your analogy doesn't really match up.. The 4 foot wide bowling ball would be a sure shot even on a new turn in bowling with every pin on the spot.. there would be no need for the regular sized bowling balls anymore. It doesn't really translate to the playing cue/jump cue scenario.. :o

mrgoochio
06-14-2009, 09:46 PM
I say ban them...I have seen cue balls with tiny cracks in them from phenolic tips...if its messing up the equipment..I say BAN it! Find something else to use....use a leather tip on your break cue....

Although I completely believe you when you say you've seen cue balls with tiny cracks (as I've seen them myself), I've also been to multiple quality billiards rooms where they don't cheap out on their balls and every ball in each of the pool rooms (with about 20-25 tables each) including their cueballs were in perfect to near perfect condition. There are tons of regulars and nearly all of them powerbreak with their phenolic tipped break cues daily with no issues.

Rooms with owner complaints about phenolic tips damaging their equipment is a moot point next to the general customers that come into pool rooms abusing their equipment by either leaving drinks on tables or tossing cues around when they miss shots etc. etc. Competition players, at least in my experience, take much better care of pool room equipment.

BVal
06-14-2009, 09:47 PM
Sorry but your analogy doesn't really match up.. The 4 foot wide bowling ball would be a sure shot even on a new turn in bowling with every pin on the spot.. there would be no need for the regular sized bowling balls anymore. It doesn't really translate to the playing cue/jump cue scenario.. :o
yeah how would you roll a 4 foot wide bowling ball anyways. LOL

BVal

Cameron Smith
06-14-2009, 09:55 PM
\

In Vegas, a competitor forgot about this rule and was not allowed to play his match. He was disqualified. That is why I remember it.

That's strange, why couldn't he just use his playing cue?

jersey jer
06-14-2009, 10:03 PM
yeah how would you roll a 4 foot wide bowling ball anyways. LOL

BVal

I HAVE BIG HANDS.


anyway my example wasnt meant to be taken literaly. it was meant to give the reader a mental image in order to help get across to others how i feel. i guess mrgoochio didnt get that part. BVal that's funny im throwin ya some greenies

mrgoochio
06-14-2009, 10:09 PM
I HAVE BIG HANDS.


anyway my example wasnt meant to be taken literaly. it was meant to give the reader a mental image in order to help get across to others how i feel. i guess mrgoochio didnt get that part. BVal that's funny im throwin ya some greenies

My point is that the mental image you are portraying has no relation to the playing cue/jump cue or leather tip/phenolic tip situation. I got your analogy.

bob_bushka
06-15-2009, 03:09 AM
We are the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). You are certainly entitled to your opinion. We (BCAPL) are not going to change our minds. The new rule book has been printed and goes into effect June 1. If you are caught using it during our events the penalties will be severe. Our referees will be looking for phenolic tips. Will it be worth it to lose a match because you don't like the rules?

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League

I think Phenolics are simply another tip IMO. I know a couple of players that actually play with phenolic tips as their shooting tip(not just for breaking or jumping). I am older and grew up learning how to kick. The advent of the stubby jumpers with phenolics, I have been always opposed to. I spent years learning how to kick and now a player can learn how to jump with a stubby in like a half an hour. I know the phenolics tear up cue balls but we as players have had to put up with lousy barbox cueballs for years. Was the BCAPL as quick to respond to players complaints about cue balls as they were to make their decision to ban phenolics, I don't think so. With all that I have said, I will side with the BCAPL on this one, as I value the tradition of what one can reasonably do with a cueball from practice and experience than what one can do with a cueball because of a piece of phenolic resin.

skor
06-15-2009, 04:12 AM
Sorry, but I'm not jumping on your bandwagon.
The Billiard Congress of America can set the rules as they see fit.
That's part of their purpose. I totally support their decision.
Both phenolic and G-10 have the potential to damage the CB.
Costs of new CBs aren't included in the greens fees.
You're certainly welcome to destroy your own equipment at home on your table.
Let me ask you, what did you do before phenolic?
I'm also curious about what you mean by "if we allow".
Are you thinking of boycotting?
Look, it's still a level playing field. You can't use it & nor can your opponent. A true player will adapt.

What did you do before phenolic balls?
and before rubber rails?
and before worsted cloth?
and before billiards was played on a table....

Sports and sports equipment evolve, no point on trying to stop it.... no point on trying to go back in time either....

Phenolic make jumping easier but at the same time makes good safe shots harder.
breaking a 9ball rack and running out is easier with today's equipment so maybe it's the game's fault on not the equipment... 9ball is a hustler game, it was design to make more money and fast. The only reason it became the "pros game" is because it looks better on TV... BUT hey there isn't really pool on TV anymore so why not go back to play 14.1 or 8ball.

To be honest we really have to look at things with the correct prospective... with the current state of the BCA, who cares what they do? how many BCA events do you have in a year? is there a BCA tour?... really who cares?
The big scenes that influence the pool world today is the Asian and European scenes and as long as phenolic is OK to use over there and as long as most pro events in the USA are private then really, who gives a f.... about what the BCA does?

Kinda sad as the BCA used to be the industry leader and all other pool governing bodies tried to be like the BCA.

mrgoochio
06-15-2009, 05:34 AM
What did you do before phenolic balls?
and before rubber rails?
and before worsted cloth?
and before billiards was played on a table....

Sports and sports equipment evolve, no point on trying to stop it.... no point on trying to go back in time either....

Phenolic make jumping easier but at the same time makes good safe shots harder.
breaking a 9ball rack and running out is easier with today's equipment so maybe it's the game's fault on not the equipment... 9ball is a hustler game, it was design to make more money and fast. The only reason it became the "pros game" is because it looks better on TV... BUT hey there isn't really pool on TV anymore so why not go back to play 14.1 or 8ball.

To be honest we really have to look at things with the correct prospective... with the current state of the BCA, who cares what they do? how many BCA events do you have in a year? is there a BCA tour?... really who cares?
The big scenes that influence the pool world today is the Asian and European scenes and as long as phenolic is OK to use over there and as long as most pro events in the USA are private then really, who gives a f.... about what the BCA does?

Kinda sad as the BCA used to be the industry leader and all other pool governing bodies tried to be like the BCA.

Played in 3 tournaments in the last year in Asia, phenolics were accepted every time as well as jump cues. Everyone was OK with it and seemed to like it as well.

cardiac kid
06-15-2009, 06:27 AM
To be honest we really have to look at things with the correct prospective... with the current state of the BCA, who cares what they do? how many BCA events do you have in a year? is there a BCA tour?... really who cares?
The big scenes that influence the pool world today is the Asian and European scenes and as long as phenolic is OK to use over there and as long as most pro events in the USA are private then really, who gives a f.... about what the BCA does? Kinda sad as the BCA used to be the industry leader and all other pool governing bodies tried to be like the BCA.

Skor,

First, you must separate BCA and BCAPL. They are two separate entities. Why should you care about BCAPL? Go to their website and look at how many events they host regionally. My guess is in two years BCAPL will be completely replaced by CSI anyway to aleviate this confusion. BCAPL's connection to Diamond tables is another. If Mark Griffin decides to ban phenolic at all his events, the list of available tournaments for you will sure shrink! Remember, we are talking about amateur pool anyway. Specifically BCAPL amateur events.

Lyn

KJ Cues
06-15-2009, 07:32 AM
Rules and equipment evolve in any sport.
It's up to the rules committee to make the determinations as to whether a particular item will be allowed or not, IN SANCTIONED EVENTS. What you do out in the world, outside of sanctioned events, is up to you and what you feel you can get away with.

Would golf be a better sport if a guidance system were embedded in the ball? Would the sport be elevated if NIKE gave Tiger Woods a ball that he could drive 500 yds.?
IIRC, it's been tried and promptly rejected, BY THE RULES COMMITTEE.
Let's not dismiss the concept of a level playing field.

I don't believe that the impetus for the recent ruling was initiated by the players but by those that provide the equipment for sanctioned events. Personally I think this is the right ruling at the right time. This ruling makes pool a better sport. Isn't that a noble enough objective?

I have to admit, this ruling will affect me on a personal level and not because it will hinder my jump game. I don't jump.
I fabricate phenolic tips and one piece tip/ferrules. I see this source of income going away. That's fine by me, I'm a 'player' and will adapt. The ones who should be crying the loudest are the 'big dog' manufacturers who have designed & built some of their products around the use of phen. tips, etc.
I don't hear them whining. They are successful in business because they have the ability to change. That's an admirable quality.

"Sports and sports equipment evolve, no point on trying to stop it." Quote Skor.

Actually there is. If it's proven that said evolution results in damage to the equipment then it's time to re-evaluate the ruling. Sometimes this isn't done at the speed that some people would like.
In this scenario, the end justifies the means.

alstl
06-15-2009, 07:33 AM
I agree with Earl, they should ban jump cues.

skor
06-15-2009, 07:49 AM
Which events are sanctioned by the BCA at the moment?

genesis
06-15-2009, 07:59 AM
Thank you someone heard my crying. Do not harm our cueballs. :smile:

Bann every jumpstick and the SKILL of Billard will win the game. (Not at the high end players, beginners and medium skilled ones).

I FULLY AGREE WITH THAT DECISION. THANK YOU.

cardiac kid
06-15-2009, 09:32 AM
Which events are sanctioned by the BCA at the moment?

Skor,

At this moment, I do not know of a single event sanctioned by the BCA. They have become strictly a billiards industry mouthpiece. The BCAPL sanctions tournaments and leagues. They also write the rules for those events. VNEA and ACS essentially use BCAPL rules for their events with some modifications. Again I suggest looking at the playbca.com or playcsi.com websites under events for event listings. There is no connection between BCA and BCAPL other than three letters.

Lyn

rbpwrd240
06-15-2009, 09:59 AM
More of my opinions.


The game of billiards is a game with jump shots. If you dont like it then you probably cant jump. Some of these people argue they spent time learning how to kick. Well I spent time learning how to correctly jump with a slew of tips and now some of my favorites are illegal.

The BCA's goal is to figure out how to better elevate and excel the game in the states. Here I think they might want to see more money get poured into the industry by all of us going and getting new cues and tips and shafts.

The BCAPL argues that these tips fracture and crack cue balls. The funny part here is that most rooms that hold leagues already pay there own costs and normally have degrading 10 year old equipment anyway. The BCAPL would only have to purchase tables from Diamond on very rare instances. These tables would then be resold back to the public above cost and under retail. So the BCAPL isnt loosing money here!!!

Diamond and the BCAPL have a long standing friendly relationship. I believe the owners may even have stock in each others seperate entities. This means that BCAPLs owner makes money by buying the diamond tables that his league plays on. LOL It would make sense that he does this with league member dues.

So where is the cost hurting the BCAPL? I just dont see it. I think their maybe a connection here.

rayjay
06-15-2009, 10:29 AM
More of my opinions.

Diamond and the BCAPL have a long standing friendly relationship. I believe the owners may even have stock in each others seperate entities. This means that BCAPLs owner makes money by buying the diamond tables that his league plays on. LOL It would make sense that he does this with league member dues.

So where is the cost hurting the BCAPL? I just dont see it. I think their maybe a connection here.

Good intuition! Mark Griffin ownes both Diamond Tables and the BCAPL.
:p

Tom In Cincy
06-15-2009, 11:04 AM
More of my opinions.


The game of billiardsIt's Pocket Billiards, billiards is played with two white balls and a red ball on a billiard table without pockets is a game with jump shots. If you dont like it then you probably cant jump. so if I am for the rule, I probably can't jump? wrong, I can jump with a full cue, no jump cue. Some of these people argue they spent time learning how to kick. Well I spent time learning how to correctly jump with a slew of tips and now some of my favorites are illegal.Anyone, even non-pool players can learn how to jump a full ball using a jump cue, in less than 10 minutes.

The BCA's goal is to figure out how to better elevate and excel the game in the states. Here I think they might want to see more money get poured into the industry by all of us going and getting new cues and tips and shafts. How do you know what the BCA's goals are? Please provide your source

The BCAPL argues Are you making this up? where and when did the BCAPL argue this? that these tips fracture and crack cue balls. The funny part here is that most rooms that hold leagues already pay there own costs and normally have degrading 10 year old equipment anyway. The BCAPL would only have to purchase tables from Diamond on very rare instances. These tables would then be resold back to the public above cost and under retail. So the BCAPL isnt loosing money here!!! All conjecture on your part, no proof, just you guessing

Diamond and the BCAPL have a long standing friendly relationship. I believe the owners may even have stock in each others seperate entities. This means that BCAPLs owner makes money by buying the diamond tables that his league plays on. LOL It would make sense that he does this with league member dues. If you did a little more research rather than guessing you would already know that Mark Griffin (ower BCAPL) and Greg Sullivan (founder and owner of Diamond tables since the late 80s) have been partners for almost 20 years in the Diamond table business. There are plenty of business reasons for them to promote and offer Diamond tables and they have a perfect right to protect their investment as they see fit.

So where is the cost hurting the BCAPL? I just dont see it. Does this mean if you understood their reasoning and their practical efforts you would agree? I think their maybe a connection here.You bet there is a connection.

Do you know anything about the APA and its dealings with Brunswick tables?
The APA also makes its own rules, just like the TAP and VNEA amateur organizations. Why do you pick on the BCAPL? because you have a phenolic tip?

That's a real good reason. :frown:

Celtic
06-15-2009, 11:53 AM
I don't mean to be picky :o... but, how does the banning of phenolic tips affect kick shots? I consider myself to be more of a kicker than a jumper, so I'm just curious.


Exactly, or masse for that matter. It will piss off the jumpers, but those CUES are messing up the game of 8-ball as it is with people having a savior for when they play miserable shape.

When Robin Dodson and Jeanette Lee are showing people how easy it is for a 3 year old to make a full ball jump and make a ball with their jump cue something IS wrong with that.

The BCA had a sheet to fill out at the commencement of the event asking people if they wanted various changes, jump cues, green fees, AND phelonic tips. If the sheets came back and a majority of the people wanted those tips banned then they should be banned.

Pool is NOT golf, the games purity is ruined by people having a case full of various cues all gimmicked up to make specific shots. The game use to be magical how a person could take one single regular cue and make masse shots, amazing kicks, full cue jump shots, ect...

Now the game is being ruined and all of that skill it took to learn to master all of the various shots with a regular playing is being lost, replaced with friggin gimmicks.

WAY TO GO BCA, bring back the purity of the game.

Celtic
06-15-2009, 11:59 AM
I generally carry a break cue with a phenolic that doubles as a full table jumper, I dont think a leather tip will give me the same ball hoping action off the rack. I usually skip the ball and try to get it to plant back in the center(see ish) of the table. Yes this can be dangerous especially if you happend to be around my table during the first round at the May Fast Eddies tour. LOL:sorry:

I usually use a Danny Spates jumper for medoum shots and for varrying landing styles and tougher shots. I can jump draw very easily with it, most any jump will be pocketed and give shape. Now I say that becouse a jump that is too tough normally becomes a kick.:wink:

I just got a chilton flying eagle for dart style jumping. I can clear a ball that is within a chalk width from the impeding object ball. I have spent many hours learning how to shoot with phenolic resins. Most anyone that plays with me would tell you I have an extremly high success rate at any level. Now im not a great player and thats why I have these techniques. Now im going to have to go back and switch some of my tips and relearn the stroke and then adjust to there hit and english. Im just saying I have addapted my game to take full advantage of my options I dont like this new rule just my opinion. :angry:


It's "just my opinion" but all of that just makes me think equipment collection like you are talking about making your cue case more like a golf bag full of clubs, and players like you are ruining the purity this sport once had.

The more gimmick shafts, gimmick cues, and other crap they bring in they even out the playing field more and more and make it harder for the cream to rise to the top, and this sport has a tough enough time with that already.

Celtic
06-15-2009, 12:35 PM
Honestly letters, and e-mails to the BCA (http://www.playbca.com/Contact/ContactUs/tabid/202/Default.aspx) may help, <<<<<----- There is a link for addreses, and e-mails. USE it!!!!

I used it, I commended them for the change.

Celtic
06-15-2009, 12:53 PM
PS if I EVER see a opponent of mine pull out a http://www.jump-buddy.com/ and it is actually legal I am going to puke. This is EXACTLY what I am talking about with gimmicks and bull crap wrecking this game. Whats next, a long sleeve shirt with a carbon frame that does not allow the player to twist their stroke at all and basically forces the perfect pendulum stroke?

Wait! I have it, lets get robots that we control via remote to shoot the pool for us, and after the match is over they fight to the death ala Robotwars, that is sure to send this sport through the roof of popularity, everyone loves robots!

cardiac kid
06-15-2009, 02:03 PM
Do you know anything about the APA and its dealings with Brunswick tables?

Tom,

Until Mark Griffin purchased the BCA Pool League five years ago, APA was using Diamond tables at their National events. The excuse I hear is they wanted bigger pockets than stock and Diamond refused to change their design spec's. Thats their story. My guess is APA did not wish to support BCAPL in any way! Can you blame them?

Brunswick owns Valley. APA now uses Valley tables at their National events. This "partnership" gets really silly. At the Allen Hopkins Super Billiards Expo this year, there was an APA booth set up to recruit new members and say hello to existing ones. Every other table in the Expo center was a Diamond (approx 150 +/-). APA had to bring in a Valley for it's booth. Any questions?

Some of these posters just refuse to understand. It is BCAPL's sandbox. They make the rules. It doesn't matter why they make them. If you don't like the rules, don't play. Go play TAP, APA, ACS, VNEA, etc. I think it is a product of the most recent generations. Me, me, me!

Lyn

ShootingRazbone
06-15-2009, 02:05 PM
ooh! ooh! ooh! then... maybe they'll say we can't play pool at all because it wears out the cloth! LOL, please don't feel like I'm attacking you, but I seriously hope you are kidding w/ this statement....

You are attacking the man along with quite a few others, BVal included (I only could ever hope for a stroke like his lol)... The man has an opinion on the rules the same as all of us do. Berating the man for his is unexceptable in my OPINION! You can simply state yours without trying to make him look foolish.



Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read/heard anyone talk about eliminating jumping from the game entirely... all I've read is people saying that you can achieve the same results using leather tips as opposed to phenolic tips....

ok... your wrong....

wish every tour would ban phenolic tips. it takes alot more skill and knowledge to kick than it does to use a gaffed tip to jump with.

Bah, I hate jumping. No offense to jumpers, just not my thing. Anyhow, I'm a kicker myself, btw, you can use any tip to kick, and not that I masse too much out of neccessity, but you can do that with leather, too.

People didn't always have phenolic, or break cues, or G-10, etc. They played pool just as damn well before all that. We lived without all this stuff, once upon a time. Maybe I'm just speaking nonsense, but that's just what I think.

Woohoo, I agree with it 100%. Ban them. It means I'll probably never be able to jump again, but I support this decision absolutely. I'll gladly see my jump cues and phenolic break shafts sit on my rack collecting dust forever. I use phenolic now because you have to, but I see it like the 3 point shot in basketball, aluminum bats and the "DH" in baseball, and regular season overtimes in football (tie is a legit score); they should all be eliminated.

heres some entire threads for your enjoyment....


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=136855&highlight=jump+cues

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=87904&highlight=jump+cues

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=87904&highlight=jump+cues&page=3



Again... I hope you are kidding and don't seriously believe this... those are some pretty radical statements.


This is a pretty radical statement here as well. Go ahead and question his sanity while your at it. What I find hilarious is all the statements I read from the so called purists (who probably use a preditor or OB1 shaft mind you) who say adapt to whatever the rules are THIS WEEK! No sir, I say.... you adapt to new technology.... works both ways, not just your way. This IS the 21st century!! I love a good horse.... doesnt mean I won't drive a nice caddy.
BCAPL operators do ok.... spend a little for a FEW cueballs HELL NO... make the players spend more money on Tips, Ferrules, and new Break Sticks. geeeez

Celtic
06-15-2009, 02:14 PM
and not that I masse too much out of neccessity, but you can do that with leather, too.

BTW masse with a phenolic tip would be idiotic. It would be vastly harder to hit a good masse shot with phenolic as compared to leather. You want alot of tip contact and spin production on a masse shot, something a phenolic tip is designed specifically not to do.

Tom In Cincy
06-15-2009, 02:14 PM
Lyn,
I had heare that story a few years back.

The association with APA and Brunswick did raise a few eyebrows in the 'industry'. Business protecting itself from competition.
Locking into a contract does tend to squeeze out the competition. But wait until the contract is over.


Tom,

Until Mark Griffin purchased the BCA Pool League five years ago, APA was using Diamond tables at their National events. The excuse I hear is they wanted bigger pockets than stock and Diamond refused to change their design spec's. Thats their story. My guess is APA did not wish to support BCAPL in any way! Can you blame them?

Brunswick owns Valley. APA now uses Valley tables at their National events. This "partnership" gets really silly. At the Allen Hopkins Super Billiards Expo this year, there was an APA booth set up to recruit new members and say hello to existing ones. Every other table in the Expo center was a Diamond (approx 150 +/-). APA had to bring in a Valley for it's booth. Any questions?

Some of these posters just refuse to understand.

I agree Lyn, some of these posters just like to spout their opinions (even tho the facts speak otherwise) about what they think is suppose to be

It is BCAPL's sandbox. They make the rules. It doesn't matter why they make them.
These rules were not made to anger phenolic tip owners or the retailer, distribution and manufactures.

If you don't like the rules, don't play. Go play TAP, APA, ACS, VNEA, etc. I think it is a product of the most recent generations. Me, me, me!

Lyn

cardiac kid
06-15-2009, 02:20 PM
The BCA's goal is to figure out how to better elevate and excel the game in the states. Here I think they might want to see more money get poured into the industry by all of us going and getting new cues and tips and shafts.

You're correct, that is the purpose of the BCA!

The BCAPL argues that these tips fracture and crack cue balls. The funny part here is that most rooms that hold leagues already pay there own costs and normally have degrading 10 year old equipment anyway. The BCAPL would only have to purchase tables from Diamond on very rare instances. These tables would then be resold back to the public above cost and under retail. So the BCAPL isnt loosing money here!!!

We are not talking about damage to the tables. Aramith is the manufacurer of the billiard balls used by BCAPL at their National events. Complain to them, not Diamond or BCAPL.

Diamond and the BCAPL have a long standing friendly relationship. I believe the owners may even have stock in each others seperate entities. This means that BCAPLs owner makes money by buying the diamond tables that his league plays on. LOL It would make sense that he does this with league member dues. So where is the cost hurting the BCAPL? I just dont see it. I think their maybe a connection here.

The tables used at the National Event are not owned by the BCAPL. Bad Boyz Productions owns the tables just as High Country Promotions owns the Valley tables used at all the other Nationals. They make money by charging us $1.00 per game for the use of the tables!

Lyn

cardiac kid
06-15-2009, 02:27 PM
Lyn,
I had heare that story a few years back.

The association with APA and Brunswick did raise a few eyebrows in the 'industry'. Business protecting itself from competition.
Locking into a contract does tend to squeeze out the competition. But wait until the contract is over.

Tom,

It's great to hear from you. I've been in Sactown several times since I met you. My family came first. Just never found the time to stop by Hard Times and say hello. Fly in first thing in the morning. Fly home on the last flight back to Vegas. I should be back in November. I'll stop by for sure! Keep doing the great job.

Lyn

ShootingRazbone
06-15-2009, 02:30 PM
Do you know anything about the APA and its dealings with Brunswick tables?
The APA also makes its own rules, just like the TAP and VNEA amateur organizations. Why do you pick on the BCAPL? because you have a phenolic tip?

That's a real good reason. :frown:

Thats EXACTLY the reason why he made this thread.... If I actually played in the BCAPL I would be slighty miffed as well..... My break stick has a Phenolic tip... Most of the tournaments and leagues allow them....now 5000 players have to change because this mythical damage to hundreds of THEIR cueballs which is costing them huge losses. wtf?

I do agree with the opinion that it is their league and they can take their ball and go home if they choose. Nothing to say about that really. Just have to deal... doesn't mean we have to agree. Also doesn't mean we have to be snippy with others if we don't.

Rich93
06-15-2009, 02:37 PM
Honestly letters, and e-mails to the BCA may help, <<<<<----- There is a link for addreses, and e-mails. USE it!!!!

I used it, I commended them for the change.

Thanks for the suggestion, Celtic. I just commended them also.

Tom In Cincy
06-15-2009, 02:41 PM
So, you don't play in the BCAPL? do you object to any rules other than the BCAPL? or are you just picking on the BCAPL?

Thats EXACTLY the reason why he made this thread....

I wonder if the original poster even has a rule book?

If I actually played in the BCAPL I would be slighty miffed as well..... My break stick has a Phenolic tip... Most of the tournaments and leagues allow them....
Would you please list all of the "MOST of the tournaments and Leagues" you say allow them? or are you just guessing?

now 5000 players have to change because this mythical damage to hundreds of THEIR cueballs which is costing them huge losses. wtf?

WTF exaggerating facts and reasons? How do you know it is because it of damages and HUGE costs. Who did the testing? or is this just your OPINION you want everyone to agree with?


I do agree with the opinion that it is their league and they can take their ball and go home if they choose. Nothing to say about that really. Just have to deal... doesn't mean we have to agree. Also doesn't mean we have to be snippy with others if we don't.

cardiac kid
06-15-2009, 03:42 PM
Most of the tournaments and leagues allow them....now 5000 players have to change because this mythical damage to hundreds of THEIR cueballs which is costing them huge losses. wtf?

I challenge you to out break me. You can have your phenolic tip and custom break cue. When I'm on the East Coast, I'll use my Schon with a stock shaft and tip. On the West Coast, I have a fifteen year old Mc Dermott with the original tip. Those who played me in the Super Billiards Expo, BCAPL and ACS National events will tell you, breaking is not my shortcoming. Like every facet of the game, I practice my breaks. I'm just trying to keep even with the young players. I've tried the new technologies. I break no better. It sounds like I do but I don't count more balls falling or better cue ball control . I feel it is the same as the decades old cue question. Which plays better, my entry level Schon, their top of the line $5000 cue or a one off $20k super custom? It's the player stupid!

Lyn

rayjay
06-15-2009, 04:37 PM
Just FYI...Valley was recently sold to a private company that also makes shuffleboard and foosball games, according to the most recent Billiards Digest. Brunswick no longer ownes it.
:p

LA toolman
06-15-2009, 05:50 PM
I could jump and break ok before I got my Stinger with the
(patented phenolic tip ferule system):rolleyes:,and i do really really like it.
But now there is a ban, even though I don't play bca at this time,
I think other leagues,TD's, room owners may follow suit.
After I have seen the pictures of the cue balls with small hairline fractures,
I checked my Own Qball at home.I didn't' see any,
so I started breaking every time at the same spot on the Q ball.
My Q ball is over 30 years old and I think its a centenial.
Any how I will post Pics when I eventually split it right in half.

ShootingRazbone
06-15-2009, 07:10 PM
So, you don't play in the BCAPL? do you object to any rules other than the BCAPL? or are you just picking on the BCAPL?

No, I'm posting because you and some others are incenerating the guy for having an opinion unlike your own. I could really care less about the rule change quite frankly. (As I said I don't play BCAPL...thought I made that clear?)

I agree Lyn, some of these posters just like to spout their opinions (even tho the facts speak otherwise) about what they think is suppose to be

What facts lmao? Some of these posters? Like yourself for posting what you think its supposed to be? Your different? How?

I wonder if the original poster even has a rule book?

What does that have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING? Put the keyboard down before you hurt yourself!

Would you please list all of the "MOST of the tournaments and Leagues" you say allow them? or are you just guessing?

The World Pool-Billiard Association
Tap
The Jacoby Tour
The Great Southern Billiard Tour
VNEA (last year at least)
BCAPL up until now (why should I have anything other then what I have now)
Seminole Pro Tour ---- "Mills Jumps for Billiards Victory
Seminole Pro Tour / Holiday, FL"
Predator 9 Ball Tour
KF
The Super Billiard Expo (last I checked, I could be wrong about this one)

Here's one for ya.... Tony Crosby's Blog http://tonycrosby.com/

"I have been a little slack lately with updating my blog. The last couple of months have been hectic, I have been working very hard off the table instead of on it and it is begging to show in my game which is frustrating. As many of you know I run www.strokeitwear.com also the tour www.kfcuetour.com I have been working very hard on a new project with Corey Deuel and several other high Profile players including Dennis Hatch to bring out and Develop a new line of cues www.conceptcues.com . I have incorporated the Sniper Break Jump cue which now comes in 4 styles brown, black with or without wraps. This break Jump cue is already being used by some of the best players in the World."

Jesus dude... I can go on and on here... can't you google it or something?


WTF exaggerating facts and reasons? How do you know it is because it of damages and HUGE costs. Who did the testing? or is this just your OPINION you want everyone to agree with?


Look guy... Have you even read ANY posts here at all? I count at least 5 posts in this thread stating that it is the damage to the balls thats causing this rule change. IT AIN"T ME SMART GUY! I plainly stated if this was the cause of the rule change then my OPINION is it's horse&%@!. If you know the real answer then please... enlighten us oh great one... give it to us....the answer....waiting?
If you have a problem with my OPINION, which you clearly have with anyone who doesn't agree with you, then thats on you, sorry. Take a nap.

ShootingRazbone
06-15-2009, 07:21 PM
I challenge you to out break me. You can have your phenolic tip and custom break cue. When I'm on the East Coast, I'll use my Schon with a stock shaft and tip. On the West Coast, I have a fifteen year old Mc Dermott with the original tip. Those who played me in the Super Billiards Expo, BCAPL and ACS National events will tell you, breaking is not my shortcoming. Like every facet of the game, I practice my breaks. I'm just trying to keep even with the young players. I've tried the new technologies. I break no better. It sounds like I do but I don't count more balls falling or better cue ball control . I feel it is the same as the decades old cue question. Which plays better, my entry level Schon, their top of the line $5000 cue or a one off $20k super custom? It's the player stupid!

Lyn

No....I ain't you... nor is the guy next to you or the guy across the room from you... Nor anyone else on this forum! Nobody else is you.... Everyone is different (in case you didn't notice) You either hit a golf ball 300 yards or you don't.... you either throw a baseball 95 miles an hour or you don't. You have a good break or you need some effin help....If you can break well with your shitty schon then GREAT. I happen to like my break stick which was legal last I checked.....Do I like breaking with MY SCHON.... NO...
Can Bobby Jones hit a golf ball as long as Tiger Woods with the clubs he used back then.... Hell No.....could he do it today?... probably with the new technology.... If Phenolic tips did't help then they wouldn't be selling. If Jump cues didn't help then they wouldn't be selling, stupid!

PaulAlex7000
06-28-2009, 12:37 PM
I'm not quite clear about this ruling. This is only for phenolic tips, right? What does a Mezz PB2 use? On Pooldawg's web site (http://www.pooldawg.com/product/mezz-zzpb2-power-break-ii-pool-cue-stick), it said a super hard Black Ingot tip; I've no idea if that is leather or not...

Also, I assume I can replace the tip on a J&J J/B cue with a leather tip without issue?

rbpwrd240
06-28-2009, 01:23 PM
Yes I have a rule book

All of you people who argued against me well the BCAPL thought enough of my opinion and my posts to alter the ruling they had already told me couldnt and wouldnt be changed.

I single handedly worked the powers of technology and the good ol fashion soap box till the message was heard. To those who helped me and agreed with me on this venture thank you and to those who insantly felt like they needed to check there obvius success in the game by attacking mine well that is a problem with your charictor.

I realy dont see a need for this post to continue for me, so for the last time the offical rulling will now be no phenolics on the brake cue and whatever you want on the jump cue. This is fine with me becouse I dont need a phenolic to brake. So thank you to the BCAPL and the AZ comunity for all there help without you guys it would have been the old rule all year, ATLEAST

SupaFoo
06-28-2009, 01:30 PM
I'm not quite clear about this ruling. This is only for phenolic tips, right? What does a Mezz PB2 use? On Pooldawg's web site (http://www.pooldawg.com/product/mezz-zzpb2-power-break-ii-pool-cue-stick), it said a super hard Black Ingot tip; I've no idea if that is leather or not...

Also, I assume I can replace the tip on a J&J J/B cue with a leather tip without issue?

Hey PaulAlex,

I'm pretty sure the ruling applies to resins as well, so if it's not leather, it's probably no good. You could totally stick a leather tip on a J&J and it would be fine. I would recommend the Samsara J/B tip or the less expensive Super Pro (My J/B and shooting tips, respectively). Both are great! :thumbup: