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View Full Version : Good Jump cues without phenolic tips?


djpstacked03
05-22-2009, 10:39 AM
In the wake of the BCAPL ban on phenolic tips I now need some info on what are good jump cues or jump/break cues without phenolic tips. I play in a VNEA league and I would'nt be surprised if they followed suit about the phenolic tips.

mr8ball
05-22-2009, 10:45 AM
Jacoby are the best. I have tried them all and nothing compares to the Jacoby.

chin0
05-22-2009, 10:46 AM
You can change your tips instead of your entire cue right? Maybe a little cheaper than changing the entire cue. Are white diamond ips considered phenolic tips?

Voodoo Daddy
05-22-2009, 10:57 AM
Check your PM's...

BVal
05-22-2009, 10:57 AM
In the wake of the BCAPL ban on phenolic tips I now need some info on what are good jump cues or jump/break cues without phenolic tips. I play in a VNEA league and I would'nt be surprised if they followed suit about the phenolic tips.
Stealth AT-1 is a very good jump cue.

BVal

gatorcc
05-22-2009, 11:21 AM
Does anyone know if the tip on a McDermott Stinger is a phenolic?

McChen
05-22-2009, 11:39 AM
stinger and jacoby both use phenolic. white diamond is a type of phenolic too. should be pretty easy to change a phenolic tip to leather. i actually prefer leather to phenolic, much more control. you can get leathers that are nearly as hard as phenolic. the best jump cue i've used is the stealth at-1 and it comes with a leather tip.

gatorcc
05-22-2009, 11:53 AM
stinger and jacoby both use phenolic. white diamond is a type of phenolic too. should be pretty easy to change a phenolic tip to leather. i actually prefer leather to phenolic, much more control. you can get leathers that are nearly as hard as phenolic. the best jump cue i've used is the stealth at-1 and it comes with a leather tip.

Thanks. Guess I need to find someone to put a leather tip on my Stinger.

Ironman317
05-22-2009, 12:30 PM
a rock hard leather tip on a rick howard-mace cue...is a winning combination for breaking and jumping.

ne14tennis
05-22-2009, 12:43 PM
You can change your tips instead of your entire cue right? Maybe a little cheaper than changing the entire cue. Are white diamond ips considered phenolic tips?

I asked that very question and I was told that The White Diamond and the Ice Breaker tips "Would probably not be allowed".

I have been in contact with the TD or table supplier for most of the BCAPL events and he is going to get me clarification on what (If any) variations for brak and jump tips will be allowed. Stay tuned.

I know what a phenolic tips sounds like, but some of them from a distance look like a normal ferrule/tip combo.

Tennesseejoe
05-22-2009, 12:58 PM
It's a simple job to put a leather tip on a phenolic tip/ferule---but have pro cue person do it. Many hard tips work great and if you want it very hard just have the installer take the tip down very thin.

mooseman
05-22-2009, 01:02 PM
Stealth AT-1 is a very good jump cue.

BVal

Concur..............

Also gives you a longer or short jump cue as needed.

The Saw
05-22-2009, 01:18 PM
Cheaper to have a cue maker make you a stiff shaft, hard ferrule, and a very thin hard tip.... Or have a cue repair guy put a very thin hard tip on your current break/jump cue.

I didn't like breaking with the phenolic tip and due to the IPT I ended up with a hard thin tip on my break shaft. I prefer it w/o the phenolic tip. Doesn't jump quite as well but has better CB control on the break.

jacobycues
05-22-2009, 01:27 PM
stinger and jacoby both use phenolic. white diamond is a type of phenolic too. should be pretty easy to change a phenolic tip to leather. i actually prefer leather to phenolic, much more control. you can get leathers that are nearly as hard as phenolic. the best jump cue i've used is the stealth at-1 and it comes with a leather tip.

We actually haven't used phenolic on our jump cues in over a year. We use the G10 tip. Works great for a jump cue if you are looking at switching your tip out.

BVal
05-22-2009, 01:32 PM
We actually haven't used phenolic on our jump cues in over a year. We use the G10 tip. Works great for a jump cue if you are looking at switching your tip out.
I am pretty sure that is banned along with phenolic by the BCAPL. G-10 is harder then phenolic.

BVal

NewStroke
05-22-2009, 01:47 PM
We actually haven't used phenolic on our jump cues in over a year. We use the G10 tip. Works great for a jump cue if you are looking at switching your tip out.

I think G10 is a big reason for the ban.

rayjay
05-22-2009, 02:07 PM
Stealth AT-1 is a very good jump cue.

BVal

Is that also a break cue, or jump cue only?
thx

Quatsch83
05-22-2009, 02:08 PM
Does anyone know if the tip on a McDermott Stinger is a phenolic?

Yep, it is.

McChen
05-22-2009, 02:08 PM
i think the ban is pretty much for any resin based tip, phenolic, g10, white diamond, etc. i think the only gray area would be the tiger icebreaker, where you have both leather and phenolic. i think only the leather part actually makes contact with the cue ball, so it might be ok?

mooseman
05-22-2009, 02:09 PM
Is that also a break cue, or jump cue only?
thx

That is just a jump cue. The butt breaks down to give you a long and short jump cue as needed.

rayjay
05-22-2009, 04:00 PM
OK, thanks.
:thumbup:

mongoose-
05-22-2009, 04:51 PM
If you are using a jump cue and actually know how to use it it don't matter if you have a leather or phenolic tip. NONE of the first jump cues that came on the market had phenolic tips. YES the phenolic jumps better but if you are skilled it will not matter. Throw a waterbuffalo or something of that sort on & play the game. Or don't play the BCAPL. Personally I think the reason of harming the balls is crap anyway. But unfortunatly you may see other leagues & organizations follow suit. The BCAPL does have a very good set of rules in place... possibly the best out there in my opinion.

Johnnyt
05-22-2009, 04:59 PM
It figures they would ban those kind of tips after I finally sprang for a J/B and a regular Jump cue. Only took me 15 or more years to spring for one. I'm old, I hate change. But I'll roll with the punches on this one. Johnnyt

mongoose-
05-22-2009, 05:08 PM
It figures they would ban those kind of tips after I finally sprang for a J/B and a regular Jump cue. Only took me 15 or more years to spring for one. I'm old, I hate change. But I'll roll with the punches on this one. Johnnyt

LOL same here johnny I can't see spending 100's of dollars on a break cue... I just use a J&J as I see you do too. I can jump full balls without breaking it down with that phenolic tip though. Guess I will just have to adjust back to the old way of leather if everything goes to banning phenolic.

Majic
05-22-2009, 05:26 PM
We actually haven't used phenolic on our jump cues in over a year. We use the G10 tip. Works great for a jump cue if you are looking at switching your tip out.
G10 is phenolic with glass in it

Cue Guru
05-22-2009, 05:29 PM
a rock hard leather tip on a rick howard-mace cue...is a winning combination for breaking and jumping.

Hear here!

Great cues he makes. (I just realized that sounds like Yoda!) "Away put your pool cue. I mean you no harm!":o

Robroy
05-22-2009, 06:10 PM
In the wake of the BCAPL ban on phenolic tips I now need some info on what are good jump cues or jump/break cues without phenolic tips. I play in a VNEA league and I would'nt be surprised if they followed suit about the phenolic tips.


The Frog and Tadpole come with two shafts, if the tournament allows phenolic tips you have it, if they don't the other shaft will jump with a hard flat tip too. Not as close but for sure close enough.
I only used a flat hard tip....not nearly as hard as they make now,I'm curious to see how well it will work with a hard tip again.
The're nothing fancy but it is a tool I had to have in my case.
I told people I made money selling it, I made thousands using it. And that was before I put a phenolic on them.

Cornerman
05-22-2009, 06:33 PM
If you are using a jump cue and actually know how to use it it don't matter if you have a leather or phenolic tip. NONE of the first jump cues that came on the market had phenolic tips. YES the phenolic jumps better but if you are skilled it will not matter. Throw a waterbuffalo or something of that sort on & play the game. Or don't play the BCAPL. Personally I think the reason of harming the balls is crap anyway. But unfortunatly you may see other leagues & organizations follow suit. The BCAPL does have a very good set of rules in place... possibly the best out there in my opinion.

Excellent post. A lot of relatively newer players and posters don't realize this.

My first jump/break cue had regular leather tips, not even overly hard. My Andy Gilbert break/jump came with a leather tip on the shaft. I had Andy make me a second shaft with a phenolic tip. Though the phenolic tip makes jumping easier, the leather tip was no slouch.

The Meucci jump cue had leather tips.

Mace j/b cues had leather tips.

My X-Breaker has a second shaft that has a flat super hard leather tip.

And the Stealth jumper has a leather tip relying on other parameters to make jumping easier.

I recall the Happy Hopper being the first jump cue with a phenolic tip. Anyone else remember one earlier that had a phenolic tip (not a full phenolic shaft)?

Fred

pooltchr
05-22-2009, 10:18 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Bunjee cues become popular again.

Steve

Cornerman
05-23-2009, 05:28 AM
G10 is phenolic with glass in it

Not technically, but a lot of manufacturing industry folks (me included) will blanketly group G-10 and its relatives in the phenolic family. It's an epoxy resin, not phenol.

The wording of the ban needs to be crystal clear on intent. For example, if you impregnate a leather tip with super glue, you're creating a hardened high compression plastic tip bound by (leather) fiber. Will this/should this be legal? I dont' see why not. But maybe that's what their intent is.

Incidentally, if they're going to ban these tips (high compressive, fiber-based thermosets), I hope it's not because of the fear of hurting the balls. If that's the case, then they better start banning playing pool on hard floors as well as banning any table manufacturer that uses tacks or brads to install their plastic pocket liners. I believe these cause 95% of all pool ball blemishis and nicks.

Fred

mongoose-
05-23-2009, 07:05 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Bunjee cues become popular again.

Steve

That is a very good assumption pooltchr. I thought the bungees was under
40" though. I haven't seen one in ages and I could definatly be wrong but isn't the length ruling on jump cues 40" ? Those bungees jump very well from what I remember.

Cornerman
05-23-2009, 07:08 AM
That is a very good assumption pooltchr. I thought the bungees was under
40" though. I haven't seen one in ages and I could definatly be wrong but isn't the length ruling on jump cues 40" ? Those bungees jump very well from what I remember.
It's over 40"

Fred

mongoose-
05-23-2009, 07:14 AM
Excellent post. A lot of relatively newer players and posters don't realize this.

My first jump/break cue had regular leather tips, not even overly hard. My Andy Gilbert break/jump came with a leather tip on the shaft. I had Andy make me a second shaft with a phenolic tip. Though the phenolic tip makes jumping easier, the leather tip was no slouch.

The Meucci jump cue had leather tips.

Mace j/b cues had leather tips.

My X-Breaker has a second shaft that has a flat super hard leather tip.

And the Stealth jumper has a leather tip relying on other parameters to make jumping easier.

I recall the Happy Hopper being the first jump cue with a phenolic tip. Anyone else remember one earlier that had a phenolic tip (not a full phenolic shaft)?

Fred

Thank you Fred. I can't recall when the first phenolics actually came out as I have only been using one about a year now. I could never see spending the money to buy expensive break cues & usually had broke with my player but I do like the phenolic. I however would not have a panic attack if they stopped making them lol. On one side it is a gimick that gives less skilled players a better chance to compete with the break & jump. I do know the first jump cue I had years ago was made by a guy here in Maine with just a lepro tip on it & it jumped fine... IF you can jump you can jump with anything you just need a more deliberate stroke to do it. It is going to be interesting to see what happens here in the future with other organizations after the BCAPL makes this ruling. Their rules & league are much respected in this industry. I really think you are gonna see others follow suit.

504boi
05-23-2009, 07:34 AM
Stealth AT-1 is a very good jump cue.

BVal

I have had the Stealth jump cue for some years, its works very good. I started using a jump/break cue with a phenolic tip about a year ago, also works very good. For jumps where I need more accuracy I use my stealth.
With the ban in place, I will replace the phenolic tip on my jump/break with a water buffalo tip, which is what comes on the stealth.

Robroy
05-23-2009, 10:17 AM
It's over 40"

Fred

they introduced the phenolic tip

Cornerman
05-23-2009, 11:06 AM
they introduced the phenolic tip

I don't think so Robin. If John Barton was here (which he is), I'm sure he will tell you that the Bunjee Jump Cue was made from leather. I suppose John could have been sporty and invented a new phenolic compound (leather-based phenolic?) Just for the pool industry, but I'll guess not.

John?


Regards,

Fred

JamisonNeu
05-23-2009, 11:45 AM
Someone should look into Thermal plastics, instead of the thermal set plastic.

Something like CVS this might work and it is softer. The only problem is people will have to replace the tips when the oil's (resin) in the plastic losses it's moisture. My best guess is about 1-2 years.

People should be able to put it on and have no problem. It might even hold chalk. It would probably be nicer on the ears.

Jamison Neu

Robroy
05-23-2009, 12:00 PM
I don't think so Robin. If John Barton was here (which he is), I'm sure he will tell you that the Bunjee Jump Cue was made from leather. I suppose John could have been sporty and invented a new phenolic compound (leather-based phenolic?) Just for the pool industry, but I'll guess not.

John?


Regards,

Fred

Ask him, it was the first time I ever seen one...and I have been jumping for a while.

PoolSharkAllen
05-24-2009, 10:10 AM
I asked a well-known cue maker what kind of hard leather tip he would recommend I replace my phenolic tip with. He recommended a water buffalo tip.

Does anyone have a opinion on how well the water buffalo tips play for jump cues?

mongoose-
05-24-2009, 10:18 AM
I asked a well-known cue maker what kind of hard leather tip he would recommend I replace my phenolic tip with. He recommended a water buffalo tip.

Does anyone have a opinion on how well the water buffalo tips play for jump cues?

They play pretty well. I use to use one on my old break cue years ago. Very hard tip.

McChen
05-24-2009, 11:31 AM
the bunjee tip is made of phenolic resin bits of ground up leather in it to satisfy the BCA requirements. this is what JB told me. he also said he experimented with very hard leather tips, and they worked just as well. specially treated and compressed water buffalo

rackem
05-24-2009, 11:42 AM
the bunjee tip is made of phenolic resin bits of ground up leather in it to satisfy the BCA requirements. this is what JB told me. he also said he experimented with very hard leather tips, and they worked just as well. specially treated and compressed water buffalo
Just wondering how long ago JB told you that? Was it recently or years ago?

real bartram
05-24-2009, 11:46 AM
Cheaper to have a cue maker make you a stiff shaft, hard ferrule, and a very thin hard tip.... Or have a cue repair guy put a very thin hard tip on your current break/jump cue.

I didn't like breaking with the phenolic tip and due to the IPT I ended up with a hard thin tip on my break shaft. I prefer it w/o the phenolic tip. Doesn't jump quite as well but has better CB control on the break.

your cue got taken over.

Cornerman
05-24-2009, 03:46 PM
Ask him, it was the first time I ever seen one...and I have been jumping for a while.

I already know that that he didn 't introduce the phenolic tip. .

John told me already that the jump rod (Hightower?Y had phenolic tip/shaft combo and some othe jump sticks already had a phenolic tip prior to the Bunjee intro.

Fred

The Saw
05-24-2009, 04:00 PM
your cue got taken over.

Thanks, cause I kind of like it better.... But the next time you go to Dickies I will let you take it with you and you can have him match it to my butt. It's f'in ugly!

alwayzcocacola0
05-24-2009, 05:59 PM
so a Phenolic ferrule is fine correct? just no phenolic tips? or are they totally banning phenolic on the cue?

McChen
05-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Just wondering how long ago JB told you that? Was it recently or years ago?

just yesterday actually...

JB Cases
05-24-2009, 10:26 PM
Ah man, even when I want to get away I can't - finally after all this debate about jump cues we finally have an interesting topic.

Ok.

1. Prior to this morning I have never experienced that a phenolic tip puts cracks in the cueball in any fashion and certainly not as been pictured. As many of you know I did countless exhibitions when we were selling the Bunjee and also when selling the Fury break/jump cues. Beyond that I had a collection of about ten brands of jump cues and about eight different cueballs to test on. Conservatively I say I have done hundreds of thousands of jump shots using the Bunjee and the Fury over the last ten years. I have easily done hundreds using other brands of jump cues. I think that if there were an issue with damaging the cue balls using phenolics then I would have seen it prior to now.

2. Having said that - this morning I went to the factory and got several cues with phenolic tips, G-10, and carbon fiber and tried to duplicate the little smiley cracks that have been pictured on AZ. Out of about fifty shots where I was deliberately trying to miscue I was able to actually get one small smiley crack in the surface of the ball. The rest of the attempts did no permanent damage. The smiley crack came from the cue using the G-10. So I can agree that there is a possibility that a combination of tip material, technique and the type of ball could result in visible damage to the ball.

3. I did not introduce phenolic tips on jump cues. There were jump rods on the mid 90's that had phenolic tips. Hans Joerg Bertram in Germany and/or Oliver Stops also in Germany were the first that I knew of who put them on normal shafts.

4. I didn't say that the Bunjee Jumper tip has leather in it to comply with the current BCA Pool League's rules. The tip was made with ground up leather to comply with the WPA and BCA rules that were in place in 1998 when I introduced that brand. In reality though there was no performance difference between the Bunjee tip and a normal phenolic tip, which was the goal. I did however make damn sure that the cue was not in any way shape or form damaging the cueball or the table in any way. Before I introduced the Bunjee Jumper I did thousands of shots on my table in our shop so that I could understand everything about the cue and about jumping balls.

4a. Regarding my comment about Water Buffalo tips. In my experimenting I did compress and treat a Water Buffalo tip to see how it would stack up against the Bunjee Tip. I installed it on a normal Bunjee Jumper and tested it. It worked almost as well as the Bunjee Tip. I felt that I could depend on the jumpability of the Bunjee Tip a little more BUT that the compressed WB tip "felt" better.

5. My view of the BCA's ruling. I think that it is a little extreme to include all materials other than leather in the ban. I think that it may well be the ferrule that is causing the problem when it strikes the cue ball repeatedly on a miscue, in which case many ferrules used on most cues could conceivably cause the same damage. I feel that this warrants further study. I do think that it will hard to enforce and lead to a lot of arguments and pissed off players. I am not really sure how the BCA plans to discern between leather and phenolic on the spot.

I do think that the cue should not damage the ball ever. However I also think that people are not taking into account that part of the problem could be the balls themselves. In my own informal studies I found that some balls will mark up far easier than others.

Pool balls are made of phenolic resin or polyester resin. Both come in many grades and quality levels and the exact "formula" that each ball maker uses is a secret to them. It's for this reason that not many ball makers are able to duplicate Aramith's properties. But even Aramith balls vary in their properties.

It is my opinion that if a ball is being damaged by a collision with a ferrule or a tip then it probably will also be damaged by collisions at velocity with other balls of equal hardness.

In conclusion I think that this will lead to manufacturers coming up with ways to replace phenolics and similar materials with leather tips that have the same or nearly the same performance as phenolics when it comes to jumping balls and velocity of the cue ball off the tip for the break shot.

In the end this is probably a good thing long term so that people stop trying to one-up each other with resin-based tips and we get back to figuring out how to make leather tips work as well.

As I said earlier though I think that the problem most likely lies with the balls though and that the BCAPL should investigate this as it seems like a knee-jerk reaction. If there were a major problem then it surely would have surfaced long before now as phenolic tipped break and jump cues have been on the market for the past ten years.

Going back to lurking.

McChen
05-25-2009, 01:39 AM
thanks for the nice post john....didn't mean to speak for ya!

rackem
05-25-2009, 02:34 AM
I would think that the damage being done to the cue ball would be occuring more from break shots as opposed to jump shots.
I asked in an earlier post as John mentioned, just how do they plan on determining what tip is made out of what on the spot during tournament play. :confused:
Wasn't that the reason the must be leather rule ceased to be enforced in the past. :ignore:ers.
I don't think sound is going to be reliable. :rolleyes:

I also wonder if some cue balls are more prone to damage than others??

banky
05-25-2009, 07:48 AM
Jerico the creator of the stinger has leather tip that performs with phenolic.

They knew the change was going to happen sooner or later so they introduced in 2005 at trade show the first version of this tip.

First mention of this change was when ipt was still here then viking tour.

So this is not a total surprise room owners have been complaining about
phenolic tip for years.

conetip
05-25-2009, 08:10 AM
Iy would seem from JB testing, that it is the g10 , or tips with glass reinforcing that is causing the failures on cue balls, and not phenolics.
If this is on fact the case, then just the g10 type tips should be banned.
They should only be banning tip materials that have shown to be damaging a cue ball.
I am sure a robot arm could simulate a break at 35 mph onto a cue ball and different tips could be tested to see what is actually causing the damage. The cue ball does not have to be hitting a rack each time.
Or a cueball could be dropped from about 35 feet in a tube onto a tip sample in the middle of the tube on the ground.
Whoever does the test, will need to have the respect of the rulemakers.
My thoughts.
Neil

Cue Guru
05-26-2009, 04:23 AM
It's over 40"

Fred

BCA ruling on cues in general...

http://www.cueguru.com/cue_regulations/