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tigerseye
05-23-2009, 07:10 AM
I had someone tell me that phenolic tips put micro fractures in the cueball and that is why the BCA has banned them....
I am having a hard time believing this one...:confused:
Insight anyone??

CocoboloCowboy
05-23-2009, 07:18 AM
A Member got a e-mail from Bill Stock-Head BCA Referee saying it is so.

cardiac kid
05-23-2009, 07:35 AM
Why is everyone so up in arms about this rule change? It's their sandbox. We either play by their rules or find another place to play!

Seriously, why are you questioning the BCAPL's decision? If Bill and Ric both say cue balls are being ruined, why can't you just believe them? Would you rather play with the junk cue balls the ACS, VNEA and APA use for their National events? I've had one too many J hook rolls from the weighted cue balls. Its not like they're banning jump cues entirely! I'm waiting to see what happens at the Valley Forge event next month. Allen usually abides by BCAPL rules. My .02.

Lyn

CocoboloCowboy
05-23-2009, 07:43 AM
Why is everyone so up in arms about this rule change? It's their sandbox. We either play by their rules or find another place to play!



Lyn


Sadly many Bars, and tourny's use the BCA's Rules IMHO this SUCKS.:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:


I think their is option II, the Player NEED to Lobby the BCA to stop the change!!!!!

NineBallNut
05-23-2009, 08:09 AM
best picture I could find. look at upper right of cueball, the little smiley marks are what there talking about.
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite3.jpg

cardiac kid
05-23-2009, 08:35 AM
It is the option of every bar and non-sanctioned event to choose the rules to play by. I agree the players have the right to question the BCAPL's decision. They may protest. They may decide not to play in BCAPL events. That is the players choice. I prefer rules consistancy. Vegas pool events are expensive enough. I'd prefer not to have them charge me in advance for damage to the equipment to satisfy a small group of players. Again, if they had banned jump cues I would understand the uproar. This is just too trivial.

Lyn

tigerseye
05-23-2009, 09:57 AM
best picture I could find. look at upper right of cueball, the little smiley marks are what there talking about.
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite3.jpg

Very kewl pic....
Cueballs are more sensitive than i realized...

tigerseye
05-23-2009, 10:01 AM
Why is everyone so up in arms about this rule change? It's their sandbox. We either play by their rules or find another place to play!

Seriously, why are you questioning the BCAPL's decision? If Bill and Ric both say cue balls are being ruined, why can't you just believe them? Would you rather play with the junk cue balls the ACS, VNEA and APA use for their National events? I've had one too many J hook rolls from the weighted cue balls. Its not like they're banning jump cues entirely! I'm waiting to see what happens at the Valley Forge event next month. Allen usually abides by BCAPL rules. My .02.

Lyn



Just so you know, i could care less about the rule change. I was only asking if this was the reason for the change because i never knew that cue balls could actually be damaged by a tip so badly that it effects a bunch of rookies to play league pool to thier best abilities....

This is being abit nit picky....

Whats next, u have to have leather pockets with foam padding behing them?? Maybe a nice fluffy pillow on the bottom of the pocket so the cueball doesn't get hurt??
LOL!!!

What a joke:D:D

JoseV
05-23-2009, 11:50 AM
Ill chime in real quick im no slouch on the table i can string a few rack together but it remains to be seen by you guys. When i first bought my BK2 and after breaking with for a month i had so many little cracks on it that i could hear it pulling/snagging on the cloth when it was quiet enough in the room.


I tried to count the little cracks on the cueball becuse at the time i had no clue what was causing them but i lost count after 78 and it was a brand new arimith cueball i bought a day after the BK2 came in.

Johnnyt
05-23-2009, 12:01 PM
I have 3 Q-balls. Two good ones and a cheapy. They all have those smiley faces on them from my J/B cue. I believe the tip is the same material as the object balls. I washed them all with soap and water and looked at them with a jewelers loope. Only the QB's had the marks and the marks are shaped just like half the tip. So yes, it does put marks in the QB. Johnnyt

Cuaba
05-23-2009, 01:50 PM
I never liked phenolic tips anyway. The sound drives me crazy, it sounds like a miscue.

stumpie71
05-23-2009, 04:19 PM
Are the tips as hard or harder than the cue ball material. I understand its the same material but could it have been made harder. Either way if it's damaging the cb's it a good move.

Dead Money
05-23-2009, 06:13 PM
Best picture I have seen of the cue ball damage:


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1814923&postcount=27

TXsouthpaw
05-23-2009, 06:19 PM
this ban is bs. Phenolic tips have been around for years, why the change now?

If it was doing that much damage why not ban them as soon as they came out. Why waite till everyone was using them. Maybe someone is trying to sell more leather tips.

rayjay
05-23-2009, 08:53 PM
Or sell more break cues. The billiard retailers will be happy!
:p

gunzby
05-23-2009, 09:04 PM
I'm actually surprised so many people went with phenolic tips. You can get leather tips that are close in hardness and have much better ability to control. It's become quite evident in the last decade or so that control is much more important than the speed of the break.

the420trooper
05-23-2009, 09:49 PM
I never liked phenolic tips anyway. The sound drives me crazy, it sounds like a miscue.

Funny you would mention that....1 out of 3 times I break with a phenolic tip, I miscue....I would rather grab a crappy house cue to break, than use my phenolic monstrosity...jmo.

As others have said, the level of control offered by a leather tip is well worth the (perceived) difference in power offered by phenolic tips...

joeboxer
05-23-2009, 09:52 PM
Funny you would mention that....1 out of 3 times I break with a phenolic tip, I miscue....I would rather grab a crappy house cue to break, than use my phenolic monstrosity...jmo.

As others have said, the level of control offered by a leather tip is well worth the (perceived) difference in power offered by phenolic tips...


Exactly, phenolic takes time to get used to, but i dont have that kind of patience.

I break with my shooting cue, but i do use a Superpro to shoot with so it works out great.

the420trooper
05-23-2009, 09:55 PM
.................

chin0
05-23-2009, 11:22 PM
This can mean that the market for the phenolic tips and etc would be affected. This could trickle down and bring down certain businesses due to the ban. Maybe they can just upgrade the CB and make them out of G-10 material? It could be expensive, but it is not the the measles and blue dots are very cheap right now. So they are just banning the tips and not the phenolic ferrule and all that correct? If so, I am sure there are tips out there that are leather that are just as hard or a ted bit softer than the phenolic tips. I know manwon mention something about a milk dud type of leather tip they use that is 100+ in hardness. Seems hard enough to me lol. Just MHO

gunzby
05-23-2009, 11:34 PM
This can mean that the market for the phenolic tips and etc would be affected. This could trickle down and bring down certain businesses due to the ban. Maybe they can just upgrade the CB and make them out of G-10 material? It could be expensive, but it is not the the measles and blue dots are very cheap right now. So they are just banning the tips and not the phenolic ferrule and all that correct? If so, I am sure there are tips out there that are leather that are just as hard or a ted bit softer than the phenolic tips. I know manwon mention something about a milk dud type of leather tip they use that is 100+ in hardness. Seems hard enough to me lol. Just MHO

You can definitely make a milk dud just as hard, or damn close to phenolic. I've taken break tips and mashed em with a ball pein hammer to harden them up before installing them.

I rack balls
05-23-2009, 11:45 PM
I think it is a good idea to ban phenolic.

the420trooper
05-24-2009, 02:04 PM
I think it is a good idea to ban phenolic.

I have a red circle that looks a lot like that...And with a leather tip, I can squat the cueball. I have no control at all with a phenolic tip.

The only advantage phenolic tips provide, imo, is the ease of jumping over balls...but it's still hard to make a jump draw shot with a phenolic...

I think banning phenolic tips is good for the game. (And for our cueballs)

ShootingArts
05-25-2009, 10:48 AM
This can mean that the market for the phenolic tips and etc would be affected. This could trickle down and bring down certain businesses due to the ban. Maybe they can just upgrade the CB and make them out of G-10 material? It could be expensive, but it is not the the measles and blue dots are very cheap right now. So they are just banning the tips and not the phenolic ferrule and all that correct? If so, I am sure there are tips out there that are leather that are just as hard or a ted bit softer than the phenolic tips. I know manwon mention something about a milk dud type of leather tip they use that is 100+ in hardness. Seems hard enough to me lol. Just MHO

G-10 is fiberglass reinforced. Never seen anything with glass fiber in it that didn't start shedding glass over time if it was bent or rubbed. Somehow I have an image of a fuzzy cue ball when it gets a little age on it too! :D :D :D

Hu

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2009, 11:08 AM
From the pix posted here it seems Bill and the BCA are correct on this one. Every one of those marks matches the shape of a tip and as JohnnyT said, they are only on the cue ball.

chin0
05-25-2009, 12:47 PM
G-10 is fiberglass reinforced. Never seen anything with glass fiber in it that didn't start shedding glass over time if it was bent or rubbed. Somehow I have an image of a fuzzy cue ball when it gets a little age on it too! :D :D :D

Hu

I didn't think about that, at least it would look cool under a black light lol

Bigtruck
05-25-2009, 01:34 PM
I think it is a good idea to ban phenolic.


I'm sorry........ I'm not convinced that those marks are from phenolic tips. They look more like collision marks from hitting the balls on breaks.....imo.

Ray
(G10 user)

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm sorry........ I'm not convinced that those marks are from phenolic tips. They look more like collision marks from hitting the balls on breaks.....imo.

Ray
(G10 user)

Interesting, I suppose that may also explain the shape of the marks. You would think then that the one ball should have its share of similar marks from all the rotation games played where the one ball is hit first on the break.

Thunderball
05-25-2009, 02:17 PM
I think it is a good idea to ban phenolic.

I have a cue ball that is covered in these marks. They won't come off either.

Came from a cuetec cue with the hardest leather tip I could find since I had designated it a break cue. I do forget the tip maker now fwiw....standard lower end one piece tip... .one of the cheaper (est) ones.

It took a while to figure it out to be honest.What convinced me was when I went my brothers house to play some on his table. Now his CB has a few of those same marks.

Leather tip,standard ferral = awful looking CB?
It did for me.....hundreds and hundreds of those same dam simi circles.

Oddly enough,I now have a "black phenolic" one piece ferral/tip on that cue now and now I have no issues...Ironic considering I know,but its true.

junkbond
05-25-2009, 02:39 PM
The first time I read one of these threads about phenolic tips damaging cue balls, I examined my seven-year-old cue ball for marks and found none. That is what I expected, because I was not using a phenolic tip. Shortly after that, however, I began using a j/b with a one-piece phenolic tip/ferrule. I just went in and polished the cue ball and checked again. I found several of these marks. I am inclined to believe that the phenolic tip is causing the damage.

TXsouthpaw
05-25-2009, 02:56 PM
I think it is a good idea to ban phenolic.

looks like you got a bad cue ball. i just polished my cue ball and it looks brand new again, and i practice breaking for hours on end up to 3 at a time. with a pheonlic tip. and i jump with a G10. still nothing. Maybe its your ball. cause i dont think its the tip.

and if its the tip, why did they ban it now? phenolic has been out for years but it just started damagin the cue ball now? I dont buy it.
I say we put hillbilly or nevel on the table with a phenolic tip and let em whack away. If they dont damage the ball then that would settle the argument once and for all.

In fact ironman or stones might be able to tell us if hillbilly uses phenolic and if he's damagin the cueballs.

Bigtruck
05-25-2009, 05:11 PM
Interesting, I suppose that may also explain the shape of the marks. You would think then that the one ball should have its share of similar marks from all the rotation games played where the one ball is hit first on the break.

Good point.....I didn't see anyone post a one ball picture. I would like to hear from Aramith on this matter myself.

How about an Aramith R&D Scientist or something. I do find it interesting to hear all the pool players theories though. LOL.

I think the composition of the balls changes with time too. A few questions to ponder:

Did you ever notice how a new set of ball will play very crisp?
What is the life expectancy of a cue ball?
Will it become brittle with time and fractrure more easily?
Should we use a "breaking" ball and then switch to a "shooting" ball?
If a cueball hits a concrete floor, is it ruined? or would it have to be a phenolic floor? LOL.
What research was done before implementing the new rule?

Inquiring minds want to know! :D

Ray

chin0
05-25-2009, 05:30 PM
Is the force of the ball getting pounded with a phenolic tip that much harder than the phenolic balls hitting each other? I mean, it is the same compund, other than the g-10 vs phenolic thing. My brother uses a g-10 on his j&j j/b and I have yet to find anything, not even a scratch from breaking with the g-10 of phenolic. Maybe it is because I don't jump balls or my wimpy break :embarrassed2:

I also don't get how big of a roll difference would a little scratch or even a few little scratches or those infamous starburst would do to the roll of the ball. For years people have been playing barbox tourneys with jacked up valley CB and they are still knockout kings. Dave Matlock and Keith McCready is pretty famous on the barbox, and I'm sure they have played on barboxes with jackup chipped up scratched up CB and they still murder on it. So I don't know how it would actually affect the play of the game. If you let things like that affect you, than you definitely don't stand a chance against a shark moves. JMHO

Gerry
05-26-2009, 04:25 AM
It's from the phenolic tips for sure. We noticed the marks on the "house set" of balls right after the house counter kid got a new j/b and got into "artistic" shots, and friggin masse' shots. The CB was covered with little black spots and on further inspection the little smiley faces.

JB Cases
05-26-2009, 01:54 PM
From the pix posted here it seems Bill and the BCA are correct on this one. Every one of those marks matches the shape of a tip and as JohnnyT said, they are only on the cue ball.

Until someone runs some controlled testing there is no way to know what is causing these marks.

Many of is have been using and selling phenolic tipped cues for years, to include phenolic resin tips, carbon fiber tips and G-10 epoxy tips.

These tips have been in use for many many years now and never before has this been an issue.

Therefore the next obvious conclusion is that the composition of the balls has changed in some way. Balls do have a finish coating on them just like a pool cue. Naturally it is is much hard than that which is on a pool cue but it's a finish nonetheless. This is what you are seeing with the smiley cracks, damage to the finish.

I personally do not feel that the average person or even the average professional can break the balls hard enough to damage a cue ball with a phenolic tipped cue unless the ball is somehow defective.

I am certain that the BCAPL will not reverse their stance and they probably won't bother to test their reasoning in a controlled environment either. The easiest course is to ban the use of non-leather tips and allow their referees the latitude to make on the spot decisions as to the "legality" of any particular cue they are presented with during a match.

Even if the manufacturers prove that it's the balls and not the tips that are the problem this becomes then a debate over which is more important balls or cues.

It is my thought that since there are no standards and billiards is really just a wild west free for all for control that this situation will just further muddy the waters. Basically just build a jump break with several shafts or with some tip system like the Cuttlefish and that solves the problem from the player's perspective to a degree. Although the player's shot arsenal would be limited by the equipment in some leagues at least they would have all available legal equipment available to them at all times.

NewStroke
05-26-2009, 01:58 PM
One point I have not read regarding this issue is the skill level of the people actually using the jump cues. I know some people that not only beat the hell out of the balls but their cue and table as well. I would not be surprised if they used their jump cue as a second hammer. While it is possible that these tips are damaging balls, we could also be paying for inexperience.

sfleinen
05-26-2009, 02:24 PM
Folks:

There are two threads I'm aware of where this was discussed in detail, and also proof given as to exactly *where* the cue tip met the cue ball. I.e. "I'll line up a break shot with this brand-new cue ball, and hit just a hair below the logo on the cue ball..."

When the cue ball is retrieved right after that break shot, a classic "comma crack" appears right at that spot, next to the logo (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1537839&postcount=56):

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1130093
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=136089

-Sean

SK Custom Cues
05-26-2009, 08:38 PM
what a mess we have on our hands.

Let's think about our equipment on comparative terms. As many of you know, I like to compare golf to pool, and so do many other people due to the similarity.

What do we do when we beat up our golf ball? We get a new one out. Apparently, we have either some weak cue balls out there, or we have some massive breaks in combination with some hard equipment.

When there is a small concentrated force penetrating a much larger force, with enough speed it doesn't matter how hard the tip is, penetration can still occur. Think about martial artists who can break boards with their hands and feet. It is a matter of confidence and speed of direct delivery that produces that type of effect. It seems impossible, but nevertheless it is done all the time.

It would take an impressive amount of force of 60+ MPH to fracture the cue ball contacting the head ball the way the pictures are shown above. I am in total belief that these rock hard tips are destroying the cue balls because of the concentrated energy produced by the tip's force, but that's due to a combination of having king-kong-like breaking power. I think a cue ball is safe from the softer breaks. I think what is fracturing the cue ball is not on flush hits, but when the edge of the tip contacts the cue ball creating that piercing effect and therefore resulting in the smiley-face impression. I think that is we saw in the pictures above. Cues that were 14mm+ in combination with pure, center-ball hits, there would be much less of this happening. This is only my belief and I welcome anyone to challenge it with an educated guess. Until we have scientific proof, all we are left to is our opinions and educated beliefs.

It is my opinion also, that whomever made this rule has done so with the best of intentions and proven facts produced by more than qualified officials. Even if they didn't have proof, it's still their organization and they can make any rule they want to even if it's outrageous. In golf, men have to wear slacks, and women are recommended to wear skirts. Rules are not there to restrict, but to enable competitors more freedom among the competitive platform. As long as everyone is made to abide by the rules equally, who gives a shit? Don't complain about the equipment, cause if your game is relying on that, you need to revise your plan of attack.