PDA

View Full Version : BCAPL: The Official Final Phenolic Tip Ruling


Holly
06-18-2009, 04:44 PM
Phenolic Tip Rule


Effective June 1, 2009, the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League in “Equipment Specifications” under “Cues,” item d. states:

“The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, or pliable material.
Phenolic cue tips are not permitted.”

The BCA Pool League is amending this rule to state: “THE CUE TIP ON BREAK CUES MUST BE MADE OF LEATHER WITH NO NON-LEATHER MATERIALS ADDED TO THE CONTACTING SURFACE.” There have been questions asked, such as: “What if I break with my jump cue?” and similar questions. It is very simple. Whatever cue you break with must have a leather tip.

The reason for this rule is that the BCA Pool League has witnessed too many examples of damaged cue balls. After consultations with Aramith and Simonis, it has been determined the major contributing factor in cue ball damage is the hardness of the tip on break cues.

For several years the WPA has taken the position that the cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the cue ball. The BCAPL subscribes to the WPA philosophy.

This policy only applies to break cues. Jump cues are allowed to have a leather or non-leather tip - since it is difficult to stroke with enough force to cause damage.

This rule will be in effect at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships and regional tournaments that the BCAPL promotes. Promoters, directors and operators of events such as league play or local tournaments may alter the rules as they see fit.

Signed,
Bill Stock, BCAPL
Director of Referees and
Rules Administrator

back2good1
06-18-2009, 05:14 PM
um... Breaking News: Anyone wanna buy a cheap break cue with a phenolic tip? PM me.

Celtic
06-18-2009, 05:21 PM
This policy only applies to break cues. Jump cues are allowed to have a leather or non-leather tip - since it is difficult to stroke with enough force to cause damage.


That is just brutal. I cannot believe that people could get together to decide a rule and be so shortsighted that they cannot see how this is going to be something they are going to be dealing with like crazy for the years to come before they finally do what they should have done today and simply banned all tips that are non-leather from pool.

Rest assured, people using 3/4 length jump cues for longer jump shots pounding the cueball into the table with a powerful break stroke are going to cause as much damage to the cueball on those shots, many jumps require almost vertical cues to jump a ball and basic physics of the cueballs motion being impeded from the table imparts more energy from the jump cue then a break shot where the forward motion of the cue ball is not impeded by the table.

If I ever win the lottery things are going to change in this bloody sport and I will show people how it can be done right.

CocoboloCowboy
06-18-2009, 05:26 PM
If I ever win the lottery things are going to change in this bloody sport and I will show people how it can be done right.

I HOPE YOU WIN THE POWER BALL SOON! SO YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO MAKE THE CHANGES YOU WISH!:thumbup:

magix
06-18-2009, 05:55 PM
um... Breaking News: Anyone wanna buy a cheap break cue with a phenolic tip? PM me.

what do you have and how much? george

XxMerlinxX
06-18-2009, 06:46 PM
So what should they have done instead? What if Aramith simply can't come up with a harder set of cueballs? Phenolic tips gain their hardness from the fact that they're made up of fibers, normally comprised of carbon, which are set in a resin that again adds to the strength of the final product. What if they can't produce a set of balls at that same level of hardness?

RRfireblade
06-18-2009, 07:06 PM
The BCA Pool League is amending this rule to state: “THE CUE TIP ON BREAK CUES MUST BE MADE OF LEATHER WITH NO NON-LEATHER MATERIALS ADDED TO THE CONTACTING SURFACE.”

I guess that means laminated tips are out too. . . :rolleyes:

Eruditass
06-18-2009, 07:14 PM
and i thought the ruling was for jump cues too..

shoulda put that g10 on my J/B! i am fine to break with a housecue.

Fatboy
06-18-2009, 08:19 PM
And with this news, Steve Lomax is still in action, :thumbup:

NINEBALLART
06-18-2009, 09:52 PM
Is that why I got that E-MAIL from Seybert's today that Predator jump cues are on sale for $99.95.....:rolleyes:

cbi1000
06-18-2009, 10:48 PM
I for one understand and i'm ok with the new rules.

IMO, if you need a phenolic tip to break balls on a bar box then you have bigger problems the what tip you are using.

cbi

stuckart
06-18-2009, 11:10 PM
I for one understand am ok with the new rules.

IMO, if you need a phenolic tip to break balls on a bar box then you have bigger problems the what tip you are using.

cbi

Tap Tap Tap. I 100% agree!

I have never used a Phenolic Tip and don't plan to anytime soon! I hope everyone gets on board and stops complaining about it.

It is what it is.....

JB Cases
06-18-2009, 11:47 PM
Then Why doesn't the WPA ban phenolic tips as well?

This past week I spent some time inspecting the cueballs in use at the China open on the practice tables as well as on the tournament tables.

None of them had any visible damage on them despite being exposed to some of the hardest and most consistent breakers on the planet Earth.

Why would Simonis have anything to say about this? They are a cloth manufacturer.

As for Aramith it's better to blame the cue than to admit that maybe their balls aren't as good as they used to be. I have ten cue balls to test from a manufacturer who CLAIMS that their balls are better than Aramith. We will see. I know that they feel pretty good when you play with them. Perhaps if they have a formula that can stand up to breaking with phenolic tips then these balls will finally have a chance to come to the market and challenge Aramith.

I don't know.

I agree that the BCAPL is in a perfect position to gather significant amounts of data related to pool playing and equipment interaction.

It just strikes me as funny that just now, after phenolic tipped break cues have been in use for around 12 years, they have "discovered" that these cues are harmful to the cueballs AND how it's only them who have this problem.

Not to say that the APA and VNEA don't also have a similar problem but I figure we would have heard about it by now if they did.

Well, it's their sandbox and the BCAPL can make up whatever rules they see fit. I just don't think that they should lean on the WPA's rules since the WPA does in fact allow phenolic tips on break cues. Perhaps that will change as well now and instead of the WPA's rules driving the sport we will have the tail wagging the dog when leagues in the USA get to make the rules that the rest of the world must follow.

I would also like to know just HOW the BCA intends to be able to enforce this rule?

Will they have a materials testing lab on hand to test each person's tip? What is pliable? Will there be a certain hardness that is allowed (probably the best way to test quickly in the field)? Will each referee be outfitted with a Durometer to test hardness?

Rich93
06-19-2009, 12:05 AM
That is just brutal. I cannot believe that people could get together to decide a rule and be so shortsighted that they cannot see how this is going to be something they are going to be dealing with like crazy for the years to come before they finally do what they should have done today and simply banned all tips that are non-leather from pool.

Rest assured, people using 3/4 length jump cues for longer jump shots pounding the cueball into the table with a powerful break stroke are going to cause as much damage to the cueball on those shots, many jumps require almost vertical cues to jump a ball and basic physics of the cueballs motion being impeded from the table imparts more energy from the jump cue then a break shot where the forward motion of the cue ball is not impeded by the table.

If I ever win the lottery things are going to change in this bloody sport and I will show people how it can be done right.

I also wish they had banned all non-leather tips, but I think their compromise is pretty reasonable. They are trying not to go farther than what's necessary to protect the equipment, i.e., to protect the equipment while pissing off the fewest people possible. They believe, and I think they're right, that the force applied with an elevated cue is not enough to hurt the cue ball, at least in the vast majority of jump shots.

A ban on all non-leather tips would have been cleaner, but a lot of people think it's great fun to execute jump shots and they didn't want to take away any fun from the game, especially at a time when pool is struggling, rooms are closing, and there is practically no TV coverage.

CocoboloCowboy
06-19-2009, 05:59 AM
Then Why doesn't the WPA ban phenolic tips as well?

This past week I spent some time inspecting the cueballs in use at the China open on the practice tables as well as on the tournament tables.

None of them had any visible damage on them despite being exposed to some of the hardest and most consistent breakers on the planet Earth.

Why would Simonis have anything to say about this? They are a cloth manufacturer.

As for Aramith it's better to blame the cue than to admit that maybe their balls aren't as good as they used to be. I have ten cue balls to test from a manufacturer who CLAIMS that their balls are better than Aramith. We will see. I know that they feel pretty good when you play with them. Perhaps if they have a formula that can stand up to breaking with phenolic tips then these balls will finally have a chance to come to the market and challenge Aramith.

I don't know.

I agree that the BCAPL is in a perfect position to gather significant amounts of data related to pool playing and equipment interaction.

It just strikes me as funny that just now, after phenolic tipped break cues have been in use for around 12 years, they have "discovered" that these cues are harmful to the cueballs AND how it's only them who have this problem.

Not to say that the APA and VNEA don't also have a similar problem but I figure we would have heard about it by now if they did.

Well, it's their sandbox and the BCAPL can make up whatever rules they see fit. I just don't think that they should lean on the WPA's rules since the WPA does in fact allow phenolic tips on break cues. Perhaps that will change as well now and instead of the WPA's rules driving the sport we will have the tail wagging the dog when leagues in the USA get to make the rules that the rest of the world must follow.

I would also like to know just HOW the BCA intends to be able to enforce this rule?

Will they have a materials testing lab on hand to test each person's tip? What is pliable? Will there be a certain hardness that is allowed (probably the best way to test quickly in the field)? Will each referee be outfitted with a Durometer to test hardness?


Good post John!

realkingcobra
06-19-2009, 08:02 AM
I fail to understand the "cry" over the banning of phenolic tips on break cues, as players don't break any harder today than in all the years I've been playing pool. If a player thinks having a phenolic tip on their break cue give them some kind of advantage on winning a game from the break, then ALL players would be running out after the break...and they're NOT! The only difference between a phenolic tip and a leather tip is the mushrooming effect some leather tips have from breaking with them so often....so what! Geez people....play pool, it's the game you REALLY play AFTER the break!

Glen

PS. If I had MY way, I'd ban all jump cues as well, and if you make a jump shot...it would have to be with the cue you shot with LAST!

macguy
06-19-2009, 08:25 AM
I fail to understand the "cry" over the banning of phenolic tips on break cues, as players don't break any harder today than in all the years I've been playing pool. If a player thinks having a phenolic tip on their break cue give them some kind of advantage on winning a game from the break, then ALL players would be running out after the break...and they're NOT! The only difference between a phenolic tip and a leather tip is the mushrooming effect some leather tips have from breaking with them so often....so what! Geez people....play pool, it's the game you REALLY play AFTER the break!

Glen

PS. If I had MY way, I'd ban all jump cues as well, and if you make a jump shot...it would have to be with the cue you shot with LAST!

You are not really right about that. With the phenolic tip you don't hit the cue ball as hard but still get a strong break. This makes for more good breaks (cue ball hitting the 1 ball square) due to the less effort. You can concentrate on the form of your break and don't have to come out of your shoes just to hit them hard.

Predator5K4
06-19-2009, 08:35 AM
Regardless of whether we like the new ruling or not, I would like to thank Bill Stock and Holly Ryan for their consideration in posting the official ruling on this forum. There has been a lot of speculation and a lot of uncertainty, both of which have been addressed. Now that I know what the official rules are, I also know what I need to do to be in compliance. Do I have to change tips on my break shaft? Yup. But if I want to play in a BCAPL sanctioned event, that's the way it goes. Thanks again.

Shawn Armstrong
06-19-2009, 09:28 AM
You are not really right about that. With the phenolic tip you don't hit the cue ball as hard but still get a strong break. This makes for more good breaks (cue ball hitting the 1 ball square) due to the less effort. You can concentrate on the form of your break and don't have to come out of your shoes just to hit them hard.

You're also not really right about your post either. I remember reading the speed testing results from Shane Sinnott at Platinum Billiards back when he did testing over multiple brands. The phenolic tipped cues were all faster - by a whopping 2% over the leather tipped cues. So I'm guessing that the extra 0.4-0.6 MPH you gained with the phenolic tip made a huge difference with that softer, smoother stroke? BOLLOX. You can break just as well with leather as phenolic. The last two US Open champs are SVB and John Schmidt. Both break with leather tips - it didn't hurt them too much.

stevesdl
06-19-2009, 09:31 AM
I agree with Predator5k4 100%.

Sure I have some thoughts about the banning especially since it cost a "few extra dollars" out of my pocket to comply but I want to play BCAPL events. Though I subjectively and personally believe I had a slight advantage added to "my game" using phenolic, (yes it could be all psychological :) ), with everyone's comments and suggestions on this site, I will improvise with new leather tips (hopefully either samsara or water buffalo - on order as I type) and continue to enjoy and improve my overall game.

In addition, Bill and Holly have been very professional with presenting the information. They came directly to our forum to give us the information. Wow I feel that was a very nice privelege granted to us.

Thank you Bill, Holly and all on here that are assisting me in suggesting what we all can do to improvise in our game.

Steve

jrt30004
06-19-2009, 09:31 AM
glad i spent less than 90 bucks buying a players jump/break.

CocoboloCowboy
06-19-2009, 10:22 AM
I fail to understand the "cry" over the banning of phenolic tips on break cues, as players don't break any harder today than in all the years I've been playing pool. If a player thinks having a phenolic tip on their break cue give them some kind of advantage on winning a game from the break, then ALL players would be running out after the break...and they're NOT! The only difference between a phenolic tip and a leather tip is the mushrooming effect some leather tips have from breaking with them so often....so what! Geez people....play pool, it's the game you REALLY play AFTER the break!

Glen

PS. If I had MY way, I'd ban all jump cues as well, and if you make a jump shot...it would have to be with the cue you shot with LAST!

THREE WORDS:

People

Hate

Change







Wonder how the People at Tiger Products, a big support of BCAPL, feel have their Ice Breaker Brwak/Jump Cues, and Ice Breaker TIPS BANNED?:confused:

BVal
06-19-2009, 10:25 AM
THREE WORDS:

People

Hate

Change







Wonder how the People at Tiger Products, a big support of BCAPL, feel have their Ice Breaker Brwak/Jump Cues, and Ice Breaker TIPS BANNED?:confused:
Why don't you call them and ask them? The tips can still be used on jump cues.

BVal

Roger Long
06-19-2009, 11:25 AM
Recently, one of the top players in the world brought me his break cue to have me replace the phenolic tip with a hard leather tip. Before doing so, I asked him if he liked using a little english on the break shot, and was that his reason for getting away from the phenolic tip? He answered "Yes,"...I changed the tip.

Now here was a world-class player who was willing to sacrifice maybe a little bit of speed in order to gain a little more control. It didn't bother him in the least to make a change when he thought it was best for his game.

After an absence of several years from the BCAPL tournament in Vegas, I have joined a team that will be going back there next year. I currently have a phenolic tip on my break cue, but I will soon be changing it out to a leather tip so that I will be in compliance with the BCAPL's new rule. They have every right to institute the rules for their league, and it's no big deal with me. :thumbup:

Roger

catscradle
06-19-2009, 11:52 AM
So what should they have done instead? What if Aramith simply can't come up with a harder set of cueballs? Phenolic tips gain their hardness from the fact that they're made up of fibers, normally comprised of carbon, which are set in a resin that again adds to the strength of the final product. What if they can't produce a set of balls at that same level of hardness?

I don't know if they could or couldn't produce harder balls, but I think it a pretty good assumption that harder balls would play differently. Maybe we'd be very displeased with harder balls.

catscradle
06-19-2009, 12:00 PM
That is just brutal. I cannot believe that people could get together to decide a rule and be so shortsighted that they cannot see how this is going to be something they are going to be dealing with like crazy for the years to come before they finally do what they should have done today and simply banned all tips that are non-leather from pool.

Rest assured, people using 3/4 length jump cues for longer jump shots pounding the cueball into the table with a powerful break stroke are going to cause as much damage to the cueball on those shots, many jumps require almost vertical cues to jump a ball and basic physics of the cueballs motion being impeded from the table imparts more energy from the jump cue then a break shot where the forward motion of the cue ball is not impeded by the table.

If I ever win the lottery things are going to change in this bloody sport and I will show people how it can be done right.
First of all it only effects BCAPL sanctioned events. Secondly, even if they could magically effect all pool games everywhere, what difference would it make as long as both players were required to use a leather tip. If I can't break as hard as another person with a leather tip, it pretty likely that I can't break as hard as him with a phenolic tip either. Also if I can't break as hard as somebody else, well, he should have an advantage.
The argument that jumps effect the cue ball as much as breaks do is only an argument that phenolic tipped jump cues should be banned as well. I think that would be great as well even though I would probably never jump successfully again.
If I ever win the lottery I'll be satisfied opening a decent room around here without worrying about making money. :smile:

realkingcobra
06-19-2009, 12:04 PM
THREE WORDS:

People

Hate

Change







Wonder how the People at Tiger Products, a big support of BCAPL, feel have their Ice Breaker Brwak/Jump Cues, and Ice Breaker TIPS BANNED?:confused:


So what's next, laser sights for the mental midgets of the game? That's a change isn't it? How about mirror that you can place on the rails so you can see that perfect angle when banking balls...after all, the mirror don't make the shot for you, as you still need to shoot it, but that's a change isn't it? I can just see it now, guy pulls a fold up mirror out of his case, sets it up on the rail to get the perfect reflection of the bank shot...then fires the ball in the pocket...picks up the mirror...just like he would a bridge cue and puts it back, and gets ready for his next shot.

hmmmm....pool has come so far in the last 15 years or so.

Glen

filluptieu
06-19-2009, 12:07 PM
sucks for all the x breaker owners, not to mention the PB owners as well and BK2s

Holly
06-19-2009, 12:59 PM
sucks for all the x breaker owners, not to mention the PB owners as well and BK2s

My name is Holly...and I'm an X-Breaker owner.
(I too will be joining the phenolic 12-step recovery program)

BVal
06-19-2009, 01:05 PM
sucks for all the x breaker owners, not to mention the PB owners as well and BK2s
Not all BK2's have phenolic tips on them. In fact, quite a few of them were ordered with leather tips already. IMO, the tip is not what makes a good break cue break well.

BVal

Sweet Marissa
06-19-2009, 01:40 PM
Just curious... How can you tell the difference between leather and phenolic tips? Are they going to inspect every break cue's tip?

suprnva
06-19-2009, 02:21 PM
Just curious... How can you tell the difference between leather and phenolic tips? Are they going to inspect every break cue's tip?

A while back Bill S stated that all refs will be trained to notice phenolic tips. I would think between the sound and look of them (if they have the ferrule/tip combo) they will be able to tell. I'm sure I'll get asked to look at my cue as I'll be using a phenolic ferrule with a thin leather tip on it (OK per Bill S).

watchez
06-19-2009, 02:25 PM
Just curious... How can you tell the difference between leather and phenolic tips? Are they going to inspect every break cue's tip?

Just like jump cues have to be a certain length, it is up to the opponent to have it checked if they feel it is an issue.

My question to Holly/Bill is -

You have stated the rule.

What is the penalty for using a phenolic tip?

Celtic
06-19-2009, 02:49 PM
First of all it only effects BCAPL sanctioned events. Secondly, even if they could magically effect all pool games everywhere, what difference would it make as long as both players were required to use a leather tip. If I can't break as hard as another person with a leather tip, it pretty likely that I can't break as hard as him with a phenolic tip either. Also if I can't break as hard as somebody else, well, he should have an advantage.
The argument that jumps effect the cue ball as much as breaks do is only an argument that phenolic tipped jump cues should be banned as well. I think that would be great as well even though I would probably never jump successfully again.
If I ever win the lottery I'll be satisfied opening a decent room around here without worrying about making money. :smile:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1876887#post1876887

Celtic
06-19-2009, 02:55 PM
So what's next, laser sights for the mental midgets of the game? That's a change isn't it? How about mirror that you can place on the rails so you can see that perfect angle when banking balls...after all, the mirror don't make the shot for you, as you still need to shoot it, but that's a change isn't it? I can just see it now, guy pulls a fold up mirror out of his case, sets it up on the rail to get the perfect reflection of the bank shot...then fires the ball in the pocket...picks up the mirror...just like he would a bridge cue and puts it back, and gets ready for his next shot.

Don't doubt for a second that someone is not working out a way to build those as we speak.

http://www.jump-buddy.com/

Exists and was being sold at the BCAPL event at a booth in Vegas this year, the thing made me want to puke.

CocoboloCowboy
06-19-2009, 02:55 PM
sucks for all the x breaker owners, not to mention the PB owners as well and BK2s

That make sense to me.:smile:

CocoboloCowboy
06-19-2009, 02:58 PM
A while back Bill S stated that all refs will be trained to notice phenolic tips. I would think between the sound and look of them (if they have the ferrule/tip combo) they will be able to tell. I'm sure I'll get asked to look at my cue as I'll be using a phenolic ferrule with a thin leather tip on it (OK per Bill S).

Seems to me like a solution to a problem, and maybe a way to beat the rule.

suprnva
06-19-2009, 03:02 PM
Seems to me like a solution to a problem, and maybe a way to beat the rule.

It's a solution that I'm very please with to be honest. I've always been able to break fairly hard (around 25 mph) and with the new tip/ferrule combo I don't feel that I'm losing any speed but I'm gaining control. Jumping is easy too (except within like 6 inches, which I've never been great at). I don't know if it's a way to "beat" the rule, but Bill S said it was fine as long as the phenolic doesn't connect with the cue ball, and it doesn't.

BVal
06-19-2009, 03:03 PM
Seems to me like a solution to a problem, and maybe a way to beat the rule.
Are you suggesting that people should cheat? Is that how you roll? A man with class and integrity would follow the rules. Let me know where you stand.

Thanks,

BVal

macguy
06-19-2009, 03:04 PM
My name is Holly...and I'm an X-Breaker owner.
(I too will be joining the phenolic 12-step recovery program)

Error uuuuuuuuuuuuu

Bob Jewett
06-19-2009, 03:04 PM
Then Why doesn't the WPA ban phenolic tips as well? ...
As I read them, the WPA equipment specs already ban phenolic tips. How do you read them?

Here they are for your convenience:

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..

Roger Long
06-19-2009, 03:12 PM
Seems to me like a solution to a problem, and maybe a way to beat the rule.

It's not a real problem, and no one is trying to "beat the rule" in that case. Besides, what does this whole issue have to do with you? This is a league matter, and as you've told us more than once, you don't play leagues. Or are you just trying to keep things stirred up against the BCAPL?

Roger

Ironman317
06-19-2009, 03:21 PM
personally, i think it's a step in the right direction to making the sport better.

snipershot
06-19-2009, 03:24 PM
It's not a real problem, and no one is trying to "beat the rule" in that case. Besides, what does this whole issue have to do with you? This is a league matter, and as you've told us more than once, you don't play leagues. Or are you just trying to keep things stirred up against the BCAPL?

Roger

I dont play in any league either, so does that mean I cant have an opinion on this topic? Im not sticking up for anyone here, and I have read in several other threads where you and some others have made it clear that you do not get along with coco, but your statment about it being a league matter, and implying that if I am not in a BCA league I should not have an opinion is wrong. It is very possible I am misunderstanding you. Im not trying to stir anything here, but maybe you let your personal feelings get in the way of your judgement. If I were to start playing a league, this is all info I may or may not be interested in, but it is a public forum nonetheless.



Joe

Tom In Cincy
06-19-2009, 03:24 PM
Roger,
You keep asking him if he is trying to 'stir' things up. By now you ought to know that is his whole purpose in this forum.
Coco just likes to comment on any little thing that tickles his fancy, according to him, he doesn't have any first hand experience on anything related to pool except maybe $5 weekly tournaments and One Pocket games with his buddy and ripping on the AZ tournament trail.

Gambling... he has stated he doesn't do this any more and when he did it was just for peanuts. So high dollar bets, he's just guessing. Knowing anything about setting up spots for any game he is probably just guess.

Leagues.... he says he doesn't play on league... that should make his comments about league play and rules just a guess.

He says he and his only friend just play One Pocket, so I guess when he references break cues he's just guessing.

The only fact that Coca has led anyone to believe is that he is an old pool player that is probably a c+ level player at the most that spends most of the time on this forum and a few others, posting these drivel quips and 'stirring things up" to see his name in print.

and for what it is worth, posters need to negative rep him as much as possible to help the unsuspecting poster from thinking coca is a GOOD reference. He is, IMO, NOT.

It's not a real problem, and no one is trying to "beat the rule" in that case. Besides, what does this whole issue have to do with you? This is a league matter, and as you've told us more than once, you don't play leagues. Or are you just trying to keep things stirred up against the BCAPL?

Roger

CocoboloCowboy
06-19-2009, 03:26 PM
personally, i think it's a step in the right direction to making the sport better.

Personally I like Phenolic, and Tiger Ice Breaker Tip is the NUTS, as you got Hard, and Control. But as someone said the BCAPL has the right to change the rules, or due, or what ever they want too. Plus the players have the right to vote on the new rules with their money, and where they spend it.

petticasey
06-19-2009, 03:38 PM
So what's next, laser sights for the mental midgets of the game? That's a change isn't it? How about mirror that you can place on the rails so you can see that perfect angle when banking balls...after all, the mirror don't make the shot for you, as you still need to shoot it, but that's a change isn't it? I can just see it now, guy pulls a fold up mirror out of his case, sets it up on the rail to get the perfect reflection of the bank shot...then fires the ball in the pocket...picks up the mirror...just like he would a bridge cue and puts it back, and gets ready for his next shot.

hmmmm....pool has come so far in the last 15 years or so.

Glen

Sh%# don't tell everyone about my mirror technique. Pretty soon i will be finished making my Laser Aligned Mirror Engager (L.A.M.E. for short)

PM if you want one

petticasey
06-19-2009, 03:40 PM
Don't doubt for a second that someone is not working out a way to build those as we speak.


fear not its on its way

Holly
06-19-2009, 03:46 PM
Just like jump cues have to be a certain length, it is up to the opponent to have it checked if they feel it is an issue.

My question to Holly/Bill is -

You have stated the rule.

What is the penalty for using a phenolic tip?

Hi Watchez and Everyone,

Sorry I cannot answer your questions. I posted the ruling for Bill late yesterday as he is on his way to Alaska and will be back in a week. My role at CSI is events, marketing, PR, graphical and ad design and mainly the NCS. Rules and regulations are Bill's area.

Thanks,
Holly

JB Cases
06-19-2009, 07:54 PM
As I read them, the WPA equipment specs already ban phenolic tips. How do you read them?

Here they are for your convenience:

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..


I read them then as being unenforceable. Because this sentence is not properly defined and leaves the door open to interpretation;

"The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material "

From Wikipedia on Phenolic Resin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenolic_resin

* Bakelite is made from phenolic resin and wood flour.
* Richlite is made from phenolic resin and paper.
* Novotext is essentially cotton-reinforced Bakelite
* Tufnol is made from phenolic resin and cotton or linen fabric.[2]
* Syndyne phenolic laminates are made from phenolic resin and kraft/cotton paper or cotton fabric.[3]

Seems to me from a layman's perspective that all of these compounds contain fibrous material. As to the definition of pliable I think most folks aren't inclined to think of a leather cue tip as particularly pliable. It takes some forces to deform them when they are properly shaped and burnished.

As to the section about damaging the addressed ball - this is still not proven satisfactorily. Some people run "tests" that show no damage while others claim to be able to damage the ball even with a fully leather untreated tip. So the rule is good on the surface but completely misses the fact that a situation can arise where something that was previously not harmful to cue balls can suddenly, through the introduction of different cue balls be damaging to those new types of cueballs.

This is why there needs to really be some sort of clearinghouse for all these issues, type of tips allowed, ball standards, table construction, etc....

I was at a place that makes softball bats. They showed me how many certifications MUST go on every bat they make. They are required to send bats to many different "governing bodies" in order to obtain compliance certification.

So back to my original point, while you read the WPA's rule as banning phenolic tips, in practice the WPA has in fact allowed them and therefore must feel that they are in compliance with the rule as written. Or else why wouldn't they have amended the rule in the last 15 years to specifically ban phenolic tips as well as treated tips which exhibit the same properties as phenolics?

Roger Long
06-19-2009, 08:27 PM
I dont play in any league either, so does that mean I cant have an opinion on this topic? Im not sticking up for anyone here, and I have read in several other threads where you and some others have made it clear that you do not get along with coco, but your statment about it being a league matter, and implying that if I am not in a BCA league I should not have an opinion is wrong. It is very possible I am misunderstanding you. Im not trying to stir anything here, but maybe you let your personal feelings get in the way of your judgement. If I were to start playing a league, this is all info I may or may not be interested in, but it is a public forum nonetheless.



Joe

Joe:

I'm not saying you, Coco, or anyone else cannot have an opinion on this or any other matter. You're right, this is a public forum and everyone has a right to express their own opinion. But Coco had already expressed his opinion four other times in this thread before making the comment that I called him on. I think I asked a fair question of Coco. A couple of weeks ago he was ragging on the BCAPL for raising their annual membership fee, and now he is ragging on them for a change in their rules. So why is he so negative towards the BCAPL when he isn't even one of their players? I'm just curious.

But if you'll read the post from Tom In Cincy, I think he pretty much summed up the situation.

Roger

no stroke
06-19-2009, 10:25 PM
I've never seen a cue ball damaged by a phenolic tip, arramith is just trying to pass the buck to keep from admitting maybe they dont make the best cue balls and simonis is agreeing because they dont like un'skilled players making there felt look bad with poorly executed jump shots.

realkingcobra
06-20-2009, 05:36 AM
I've never seen a cue ball damaged by a phenolic tip, arramith is just trying to pass the buck to keep from admitting maybe they dont make the best cue balls and simonis is agreeing because they dont like un'skilled players making there felt look bad with poorly executed jump shots.

Digging a little deep there arn't you? Simonis has nothing to do with the cue balls showing up with little cracks in them, that is the cue ball and the cue ball alone. I HAVE seen the cracks in the cue balls, so maybe YOU need to look a little closer and stop trying to blame the ban on Simonis:mad:

Glen

CocoboloCowboy
06-20-2009, 05:58 AM
I read them then as being unenforceable. Because this sentence is not properly defined and leaves the door open to interpretation;

"The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material "

From Wikipedia on Phenolic Resin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenolic_resin

* Bakelite is made from phenolic resin and wood flour.
* Richlite is made from phenolic resin and paper.
* Novotext is essentially cotton-reinforced Bakelite
* Tufnol is made from phenolic resin and cotton or linen fabric.[2]
* Syndyne phenolic laminates are made from phenolic resin and kraft/cotton paper or cotton fabric.[3]

Seems to me from a layman's perspective that all of these compounds contain fibrous material. As to the definition of pliable I think most folks aren't inclined to think of a leather cue tip as particularly pliable. It takes some forces to deform them when they are properly shaped and burnished.

As to the section about damaging the addressed ball - this is still not proven satisfactorily. Some people run "tests" that show no damage while others claim to be able to damage the ball even with a fully leather untreated tip. So the rule is good on the surface but completely misses the fact that a situation can arise where something that was previously not harmful to cue balls can suddenly, through the introduction of different cue balls be damaging to those new types of cueballs.

This is why there needs to really be some sort of clearinghouse for all these issues, type of tips allowed, ball standards, table construction, etc....

I was at a place that makes softball bats. They showed me how many certifications MUST go on every bat they make. They are required to send bats to many different "governing bodies" in order to obtain compliance certification.

So back to my original point, while you read the WPA's rule as banning phenolic tips, in practice the WPA has in fact allowed them and therefore must feel that they are in compliance with the rule as written. Or else why wouldn't they have amended the rule in the last 15 years to specifically ban phenolic tips as well as treated tips which exhibit the same properties as phenolics?


More wisdom from John Baton who may in many way have more knowledge of Pool Equipment that one other person on this forum. Why ? For those in Rio Linda California. He work for a big company that makes all kind of pool equipment in Asia.

Think the one point about the Phenolic Tip that few have mentioned is that if a player is not a strong person because of physical strength, size, or physical disabilities like a shoulder injury. Phenolic gives an edge, and a hard break than say with leather.

I have been using a Phenolic tip for over 4 years, it has caused ZERO DAMAGE to my Personal Aramath Measles Ball that is what I use to practice BREAKING.

But I fall into category of a week breaker because of a rotator cuff injury that will always cause me to have a a weakness in my shoulder.

I don't play many tournaments, and when I do they are most 9 ball. Honestly I am sure there are a few players who can break hard enough to damage a cue ball with a Phenolic tip, but IMHO they are a very small percentage of the player's.

Honestly I think Phenolic has been around a long time, like over 5 years, and just now it is causing Cue Ball Damage. That sounds strand to me all of a sudden cue balls are cracking.

Time will tell if the other Pool League Governing Bodys will adopt the same Phenolic Ban. Than it will also be interesting to see if local Bar & Rooms Ban Phenolic!

realkingcobra
06-20-2009, 11:13 AM
More wisdom from John Baton who may in many way have more knowledge of Pool Equipment that one other person on this forum. Why ? For those in Rio Linda California. He work for a big company that makes all kind of pool equipment in Asia.

Think the one point about the Phenolic Tip that few have mentioned is that if a player is not a strong person because of physical strength, size, or physical disabilities like a shoulder injury. Phenolic gives an edge, and a hard break than say with leather.

I have been using a Phenolic tip for over 4 years, it has caused ZERO DAMAGE to my Personal Aramath Measles Ball that is what I use to practice BREAKING.

But I fall into category of a week breaker because of a rotator cuff injury that will always cause me to have a a weakness in my shoulder.

I don't play many tournaments, and when I do they are most 9 ball. Honestly I am sure there are a few players who can break hard enough to damage a cue ball with a Phenolic tip, but IMHO they are a very small percentage of the player's.

Honestly I think Phenolic has been around a long time, like over 5 years, and just now it is causing Cue Ball Damage. That sounds strand to me all of a sudden cue balls are cracking.

Time will tell if the other Pool League Governing Bodys will adopt the same Phenolic Ban. Than it will also be interesting to see if local Bar & Rooms Ban Phenolic!

Just for your information, cue balls haven't just started getting damaged, they've been damaged for quite a while now, it's just now being brought up because of the players that complain about the non-perfect cue balls when "they" are playing next! So, if breaking so hard is so important then why is Cory Duel still breaking so soft? Is it because more games are won AFTER the break by PLAYING pool and pocketing balls, or won on the BREAK?

Glen

Glen

tatcat2000
06-20-2009, 11:35 AM
Reviewing, the amended BCAPL Equipment Specifications for Cues, paragraph (d), second sentence, now reads:

"The cue tip on break cues must be made of leather with no non-leather materials added to the contacting surface."

Enforcement will be per BCAPL Rule 1.4.2:

"It is a foul if you take a shot with a cue that does not meet BCAPL specifications. The cue must be removed from play."

BCAPL Referees are not going to become "cue tip police". Until otherwise directed, enforcement of the new provision will be the same as for any other equipment issue - a referee will not become involved until summoned to a table. Once called to a table, the referee will examine the equipment, make a ruling, and enforce the penalty if appropriate.

As far as detecting illegal tips, we do not necessarily expect BCAPL referees to become tip experts. For the moment, I can only speak specifically to BCAPL national and regional tournaments. The BCAPL will make every effort to ensure that a person that is extremely knowledgeable regarding the issue is available at all times. If a referee has any doubt as to the legality of a particular tip, the issue will be taken up the chain.

Local enforcement will be more problematical, and will be addressed in the near future. I am sure that we will make an effort to train referees to recognize illegal tips where the evidence is readily apparent. It will obviously be tougher when the evidence is not so readily apparent.

However, rest assured that any attempt to evade the rule intentionally by disguising a tip, or intentionally trying to confuse the issue with irrelevant technicalities, will be treated as a sportsmanship issue, and penalties are likely to be more severe than a simple foul.

As the BCAPL National Office further addresses enforcement issues, or if they designate a more severe penalty than currently provided for in Rule 1.4.2, updates will be provided.

On a side note, an Applied Ruling is being drafted that will, for the purposes of enforcing the new break cue tip restriction, classify any cue used to execute a break shot as a break cue. The effect of the ruling will be that a player cannot skirt the rule by claiming that the cue used for the break shot is a "playing cue" as specified by the definitions, and therefore not subject to the tip restriction.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.

Rich R.
06-20-2009, 01:18 PM
Does anyone happen to know just how the BCAPL determined that the damage to cue balls was coming from the phenolic tips?
I'm no scientist, but it seems to me that the cue ball ends up hitting the rack a lot harder than the cue tip hits the cue ball.
Also, did they somehow exclude damage done by the many players who launch the cue ball off of the table onto a hard floor?

I've seen cue balls damaged in several ways, but I have never seen one damaged by a phenolic tip.

jmizzo
06-20-2009, 01:47 PM
Isnt this discussion just like saying that you shouldnt be able to use a wedge in golf because it can damage the course and be problematic for the next player?

Also for those who want to ban jump cues, isnt that like banning a putter? Its a tool used for a specific shot, just like a break cue or a bridge to hit a long shot.

Im just curious. I like the idea of a phenolic ferrule with a small small small leather tip on it. The force should go directly through the tip and give about the same results?

IMO anything on a cue should be fair game, but nothing should be able to be added to the table. No mirror or line up aid, or anything like that as it isnt what you are using to shoot.


I too practice alot with a phenolic tip. I will do break drills and jump drills for 4 hours straight and have never ever chipped or cracked a cue ball.

Just my opinion.

EnglishTeacher
06-21-2009, 08:19 AM
I have gotten quite a chuckle out of many of the responses to the new BCAPL ruling on Phenolic tips (altho' I'm not the 1st to make a more reasoned comment ... CBI1000 and StuckArt come to mind).

Once your done "pinching a loaf" over this issue, you might consider the following ...

You don't have to toss out your $400 break cue or bust it over 'BCA' Bill Stock's head down in Henderson (altho' you might enjoy the emotional release from doing so) ...

You might choose to take that $25 you won last night sharkin' the rubes down at the local dive bar and have a cue mechanic put a super hard leather (or other legal) tip on your break cue. That way, you don't flatten out your fancy playing cue's tip with your bad ass mojo. (FYI, I'm not a cue mechanic fishin' for clients).

Even if you have a combination phenolic tip/ferrule, a cue mechanic can use a lathe to grind off the tip portion and apply said replacement tip.

I've played a pretty fair game of pool for nearly 40 years now, and in spite of being a skinny old fart pushing 60 years old, most folks I play would kill (or, preferably, swap their Sledgehammer:smile:) for either my 8 Ball or my 9 Ball break.

BTW, I break with my "playing" cue (adorned with a Tiger Everest medium hard tip, dressed with [OMG, here's another excuse for you to pinch a loaf] Silver Cup Chalk!) and rely on some carefully selected modest spin to drop a ball to two and leave myself either a look at the 1 Ball or mid table shape in 8 Ball.

Can you say, "technique" ... ?

If you want to "buy" your game, try spending some of your lunch money on lessons and practice time. (FYI again, I am a coach, but since one of the luxuries of being in biz for yourself is the option to pick and choose one's clientele AND I choose not to coach whiners, I ain't fishin' for business here either).

Take a look at the game of golf. With the new driver clubheads approaching the size of a small BMW, tons of folks can now hit a drive 280 yards or more (and probably even deeper into the "woods" (pun intended) than ever before!).

What's the result? Tiger Woods now hits driver/wedge to a "long" par 5 as do several other pros and some of the better amateurs. The installed base of courses around the country are now "obsolete" except for producing "stats" that only an idiot would compare to Sam Snead's, or Jack Nicklaus' accomplishments.

Tiger Woods clearly dominates the modern game of golf using this kind of equipment. Take away the gihugic clubheads and guess what, Tiger would still dominate the game of golf, probably even more so, because all of his competitors play by the same rules.

Tiger's got game, character and the mental edge to dominate, not to mention "touch" around the greens, all of which don't rely on equipment.

Hmmmm ... Perhaps the same might be true of billiards. You think Johnny Archer might be able to "spread 'em" without a phenolic tip ...?

I do.

The people with a more legitimate gripe about the new BCAPL ruling include the equipment manufacturers (and to a lesser degree retailers) who have a large investment in selling you your "game".

But even these folks can at least recover some (sorry, the R & D and promotional costs associated with the phenolic tip) are what beancounters like to call "sunk" costs) of their investment by retrofitting their inventory with legal tips.

Lastly, I do indeed cry a river for the poor guy/gal/'combo' who has a Break/Jump 'combo' with a phenolic tip. I guess you're going to have to either get a job ("OMG"?) in order to afford a new break-only cue, have someone make a 2nd shaft with legal break tip for your combo cue or simply ...

Pull up your panties and get some game so you don't need an equipment advantage to earn your lunch money down at the local pub OR in the next BCA event.

Remember, your competition will be "saddled" with the same rules you have to play by ..

Well, it seems that I've run out of apostrophes and parentheses, so I'll guess I'll have to go now.


EnglishProfessor :groucho: aka "capn.curmudgeon" :nanner:

Snapshot9
06-21-2009, 01:14 PM
First off, they can not enforce it, and second, if they do, all they will do is to run off league players to some other league that doesn't have that rule.

This will hurt the BCA leagues more than anything.

I would be willing to bet that only 'surface' research was done before they made a ruling that would run so deep into the game.

Phenolic cue tips are 'composites', and no composite is as hard as an object made out of the hardest material in the composite.

Is the G10 Glass tip going to be banned? In my opinion, it should come under fire before phenolic tips ever do.

As to the gentleman that questioned anyone using a phenolic tip on a barbox. Evidently, you have never sustained a shoulder problem, arm problem, or rotator cup problem, and you are not very old, thus your comments. I have had shoulder problems, rotator cup problems in the past, and lost strength in my left arm (I am right handed). Those weren't the deciding factor though. I have always been a hard breaker ("One of the hardest in town") and I am 5'7", about 155 lbs. I have always been strong for my size. The problem came when I was about 57 or 58 and I started to have a decrease in strength, mainly due to aging more than anything else. My breaks did not have the original snap to them as in the past, and I was not making balls on the snap as much as I use to.

I must admit, I purchased a break/jump cue with a phenolic tip (and ferrule) out of curiousity, and for my own selfish reasons. I want to maintain the 'snap' in my break, and getting the action in the balls when they break. I hate, repeat I hate, to see balls out of the rack run up to a pocket after breaking, and stop 1-2 inches short of going in.

What the phenolic tip did for me, mostly, was to pay attention to my breaking technique, and to retrain myself to get all of the 'extra' motions out of my break stroke, and to hit the cue ball consistently in the same spot on the cueball. With a leather tip, you can have 'slop' in your technique and still be able to break the balls. With a phenolic tip, it is much more demanding to have a good breaking technique and form.

Let me be the first to say that this ruling will be rescinded in the end.

alstl
06-21-2009, 02:21 PM
IMO that's a stupid decision. Phenolic tips to a lot more damage to cloth as a result of jumping balls than to a cue ball on the break.

I'd say they got it backwards. They should ban jump cues and allow the phenolic tip on the break.

rackem
06-21-2009, 03:34 PM
Here is the Measel ball from my buddies table. It has experienced damage but it has never been hit with a phenolic tip. :rolleyes:
100390
Either the balls are soft or the darn dog must have g10 teeth.:D:D

thehammer37
06-21-2009, 03:40 PM
New Rulebook is posted on playbca.com

TXsouthpaw
06-21-2009, 03:40 PM
Here is the Measel ball from my buddies table. It has experienced damage but it has never been hit with a phenolic tip. :rolleyes:
100390
Either the balls are soft or the darn dog must have g10 teeth.:D:D




and the funny thing is ive got a cue ball that looks like new even though ive practiced breaking for up to 3 hours stragith with a phenolic tip. I think some of the balls are crap and it has nothing to do with the tips.

realkingcobra
06-21-2009, 03:50 PM
Here is the Measel ball from my buddies table. It has experienced damage but it has never been hit with a phenolic tip. :rolleyes:
100390
Either the balls are soft or the darn dog must have g10 teeth.:D:D

The measle cue ball is a polyester cue ball, whereas the red circle cue ball is phenolic...did you know that, which means the measle cue balls are softer than the red circle cue balls;)

rackem
06-21-2009, 05:05 PM
The measle cue ball is a polyester cue ball, whereas the red circle cue ball is phenolic...did you know that, which means the measle cue balls are softer than the red circle cue balls;)
No Glen, I was not aware of that. I will give the dog a red circle and report back. :D:eek:
Thanks for the info.:thumbup2:
No wonder the red circle plays better.

Tom In Cincy
06-21-2009, 05:52 PM
Glen,
Would you please explain the differences in the two plastic compounds 'Polyester and Phenolic" thanks.

Who makes the Polyester red circle cue ball?
Who makes the Pro Cup cue ball?

Who makes Centennials? and Who makes Brunswick Anniversaries?


The measle cue ball is a polyester cue ball, whereas the red circle cue ball is phenolic...did you know that, which means the measle cue balls are softer than the red circle cue balls;)

Rich R.
06-21-2009, 07:22 PM
I have gotten quite a chuckle out of many of the responses to the new BCAPL ruling on Phenolic tips (altho' I'm not the 1st to make a more reasoned comment ... CBI1000 and StuckArt come to mind).

Once your done "pinching a loaf" over this issue, you might consider the following ...

You don't have to toss out your $400 break cue or bust it over 'BCA' Bill Stock's head down in Henderson (altho' you might enjoy the emotional release from doing so) ...

You might choose to take that $25 you won last night sharkin' the rubes down at the local dive bar and have a cue mechanic put a super hard leather (or other legal) tip on your break cue. That way, you don't flatten out your fancy playing cue's tip with your bad ass mojo. (FYI, I'm not a cue mechanic fishin' for clients).

Even if you have a combination phenolic tip/ferrule, a cue mechanic can use a lathe to grind off the tip portion and apply said replacement tip.

I don't think I'll be changing tips any time soon. The day after I let a cue repair mechanice gring off the tip portion of my combination phenolic tip/ferrule, I'm sure they will recind this rule.

I've played a pretty fair game of pool for nearly 40 years now, and in spite of being a skinny old fart pushing 60 years old, most folks I play would kill (or, preferably, swap their Sledgehammer:smile:) for either my 8 Ball or my 9 Ball break.

BTW, I break with my "playing" cue (adorned with a Tiger Everest medium hard tip, dressed with [OMG, here's another excuse for you to pinch a loaf] Silver Cup Chalk!) and rely on some carefully selected modest spin to drop a ball to two and leave myself either a look at the 1 Ball or mid table shape in 8 Ball.

Can you say, "technique" ... ?

Technique is definitely more important than the cue.

If you want to "buy" your game, try spending some of your lunch money on lessons and practice time. (FYI again, I am a coach, but since one of the luxuries of being in biz for yourself is the option to pick and choose one's clientele AND I choose not to coach whiners, I ain't fishin' for business here either).

Take a look at the game of golf. With the new driver clubheads approaching the size of a small BMW, tons of folks can now hit a drive 280 yards or more (and probably even deeper into the "woods" (pun intended) than ever before!).

What's the result? Tiger Woods now hits driver/wedge to a "long" par 5 as do several other pros and some of the better amateurs. The installed base of courses around the country are now "obsolete" except for producing "stats" that only an idiot would compare to Sam Snead's, or Jack Nicklaus' accomplishments.

Tiger Woods clearly dominates the modern game of golf using this kind of equipment. Take away the gihugic clubheads and guess what, Tiger would still dominate the game of golf, probably even more so, because all of his competitors play by the same rules.

Tiger's got game, character and the mental edge to dominate, not to mention "touch" around the greens, all of which don't rely on equipment.

Hmmmm ... Perhaps the same might be true of billiards. You think Johnny Archer might be able to "spread 'em" without a phenolic tip ...?

I do.

The people with a more legitimate gripe about the new BCAPL ruling include the equipment manufacturers (and to a lesser degree retailers) who have a large investment in selling you your "game".

But even these folks can at least recover some (sorry, the R & D and promotional costs associated with the phenolic tip) are what beancounters like to call "sunk" costs) of their investment by retrofitting their inventory with legal tips.

If I were a manufacturer or a dealer, I would be putting my letter to the BCA in the mail tomorrow morning.

Lastly, I do indeed cry a river for the poor guy/gal/'combo' who has a Break/Jump 'combo' with a phenolic tip. I guess you're going to have to either get a job ("OMG"?) in order to afford a new break-only cue, have someone make a 2nd shaft with legal break tip for your combo cue or simply ...

Pull up your panties and get some game so you don't need an equipment advantage to earn your lunch money down at the local pub OR in the next BCA event.

Remember, your competition will be "saddled" with the same rules you have to play by ..

Well, it seems that I've run out of apostrophes and parentheses, so I'll guess I'll have to go now.


EnglishProfessor :groucho: aka "capn.curmudgeon" :nanner:

I don't use a phenolic tip to get an equipment advantage over others. I have a few years under my belt and I have had shoulder problems for many years. The phenolic tips only let me get close to the breaks of others.

Rich R.
06-21-2009, 07:31 PM
This will hurt the BCA leagues more than anything.

I think it will hurt the BCA too.
I know the room owner, where I play, is currently contemplating bringing in a BCA in house league. This rule change has helped me make up my mind. I will definitely not be playing in that league.
I have two jump break cues, one with a phenolic tip and the other with a combination phenolic tip/ferrule. I waited quite a while before going with the phenolic, just in case they changed the rules. After waiting for a considerable length of time, and the BCA accepting the combination tip/ferrules, I purchased these cues. Why should I have them altered or replaced now just to play in the BCA. Their league isn't that good.

Majic
06-21-2009, 07:42 PM
Just curious... How can you tell the difference between leather and phenolic tips? Are they going to inspect every break cue's tip?

It's very obvious when there is a phenolic tip used on a break cue. Sounds sort of like a rifle goin off.

Bigtruck
06-22-2009, 05:16 PM
Bump for anyone that is curious but doesn't want to search. LOL.

BVal
06-22-2009, 08:10 PM
I think it will hurt the BCA too.
I know the room owner, where I play, is currently contemplating bringing in a BCA in house league. This rule change has helped me make up my mind. I will definitely not be playing in that league.
I have two jump break cues, one with a phenolic tip and the other with a combination phenolic tip/ferrule. I waited quite a while before going with the phenolic, just in case they changed the rules. After waiting for a considerable length of time, and the BCA accepting the combination tip/ferrules, I purchased these cues. Why should I have them altered or replaced now just to play in the BCA. Their league isn't that good.
Interesting that you would not play in the league because of the tip you have to use on your break cue. Good luck in your other leagues.

BVal

RRfireblade
06-22-2009, 08:25 PM
The measle cue ball is a polyester cue ball, whereas the red circle cue ball is phenolic...did you know that, which means the measle cue balls are softer than the red circle cue balls;)

Not according to Saluc.

According to them measles CBs , AKA Aramith Pro Cup Cue balls, are made of the exact same phenolic resin compound.

In fact they state that thier resin compound far excedes that of any polyester and as such , is why they use thier phenolic resin.

Luxury
06-23-2009, 12:32 AM
So the BCAPL must have assumed that the brokest population of any sport are going to run out and buy new cues so they can keep playing at the national events?

These are the guys that can't pay their weekly dues because they lost their last dollar gambling. They aren't all going to run out and buy new cues.

Guys like me who can easily afford a new cue aren't going to be happy playing with a foreign cue when I will always be playing league and gambling with my BK2.

Rich R.
06-23-2009, 06:32 AM
Interesting that you would not play in the league because of the tip you have to use on your break cue. Good luck in your other leagues.

BVal

In my area, the BCAPL has a very small presence. Their leagues are few and far between.
On the other hand, I live on the boarder between two of the largest APA areas in the country. There is pleanty of competition in the APA leagues in this area with some players being pro caliber. It is not like some of the small town APA areas you read about on this forum. I play in a totally in house league, on 9' Diamond and Gold Crown tables and there is a minimum of sharking and sandbagging.
IMHO, in this area, the BCAPL needs me more than I need them. There is no real incentive for me to play in the BCAPL, especially if I have to buy a new break cue just for that league.

The point that really bothers me about the BCAPL is that they just up and changed the rules without any concern for their thousands of members who have been using phenolic tips for many years.

If all of the other league systems and pool organizations ban phenolic tips, none of us will have a choice. Until then, I still have a choice and right now I will choose not to join the BCAPL.