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macguy
06-18-2009, 05:05 PM
Does the new ruling regarding phenolic tips signal the end of the jump break cue? I don't know anyone who would jump with a leather tip if they don't have to. It may also usher back in the dedicated jump cue that was replaced by the J/B.

teedotaj
06-18-2009, 05:07 PM
I don't understand this. Doesn't this only affect BCA leagues anyway?
Or is it all events in America o.0

Hierovision
06-18-2009, 05:08 PM
It will probably eliminate the close jumps that are possible with a dart-stroking professional, but I doubt we will see the end of the jump/break. We might even see more jump/break/players as a result. Andy Gilbert better prepare for more orders :P

macguy
06-18-2009, 05:12 PM
I don't understand this. Doesn't this only affect BCA leagues anyway?

Just making an observation but you are right. The actual number of people it effects world wide it is meaningless. Although people are always picking up the rule book to make a call and if the BCA book is an accepted source for rulings it can be more far reaching.

macguy
06-18-2009, 05:14 PM
It will probably eliminate the close jumps that are possible with a dart-stroking professional, but I doubt we will see the end of the jump/break. We might even see more jump/break/players as a result. Andy Gilbert better prepare for more orders :P

Why would that be seeing that you can jump better with a White Diamond or phenolic tip? Why would someone not want the best tip for jumping? That wouldn't make sense.

muttley76
06-18-2009, 05:21 PM
Keep in mind that jump breaks were around many, many years before phenolic tips. And they will be around long, long after.

macguy
06-18-2009, 05:24 PM
Keep in mind that jump breaks were around many, many years before phenolic tips. And they will be around long, long after.

What will be the alternative, use two shafts and switch back and forth? It would make more sense to just have a break cue and jump cue each with the correct tip.

Richardson
06-18-2009, 05:26 PM
The rule i read said nothing about JUMP cues with phenolic tips being banned.

muttley76
06-18-2009, 05:28 PM
What will be the alternative, use two shafts and switch back and forth? It would make more sense to just have a break cue and jump cue each with the correct tip.


Hopefully they will just ban all jump cues. Too many people these days can't kick anyways. Lord knows I would be the first in line if they did.

Hierovision
06-18-2009, 05:28 PM
Why would that be seeing that you can jump better with a White Diamond or phenolic tip? Why would someone not want the best tip for jumping? That wouldn't make sense.

I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say. All I was saying is that the BCA banning phenolic tips probably won't do any damage to jump/breaks, and may even increase orders for jump/break/players. I know I enjoy a hard tip, but nothing that will damage my balls. (That's what she... oh never mind).

macguy
06-18-2009, 05:29 PM
Hopefully they will just ban all jump cues. Too many people these days can't kick anyways. Lord knows I would be the first in line if they did.

That is not what we are discussing and not going to happen.

Celtic
06-18-2009, 05:29 PM
I don't understand this. Doesn't this only affect BCA leagues anyway?

The BCAPL rules weigh heavily on the rules that other organizations decide to use. Don't be surprised if this rule ripples throughout the pool world.

Richardson
06-18-2009, 05:30 PM
Phenolic Tip Rule


Effective June 1, 2009, the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League in “Equipment Specifications” under “Cues,” item d. states:

“The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, or pliable material.
Phenolic cue tips are not permitted.”

The BCA Pool League is amending this rule to state: “THE CUE TIP ON BREAK CUES MUST BE MADE OF LEATHER WITH NO NON-LEATHER MATERIALS ADDED TO THE CONTACTING SURFACE.” There have been questions asked, such as: “What if I break with my jump cue?” and similar questions. It is very simple. Whatever cue you break with must have a leather tip.

The reason for this rule is that the BCA Pool League has witnessed too many examples of damaged cue balls. After consultations with Aramith and Simonis, it has been determined the major contributing factor in cue ball damage is the hardness of the tip on break cues.

For several years the WPA has taken the position that the cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the cue ball. The BCAPL subscribes to the WPA philosophy.

This policy only applies to break cues. Jump cues are allowed to have a leather or non-leather tip - since it is difficult to stroke with enough force to cause damage.

This rule will be in effect at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships and regional tournaments that the BCAPL promotes. Promoters, directors and operators of events such as league play or local tournaments may alter the rules as they see fit.

Signed,
Bill Stock, BCAPL
Director of Referees and
Rules Administrator

macguy
06-18-2009, 05:34 PM
I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say. All I was saying is that the BCA banning phenolic tips probably won't do any damage to jump/breaks, and may even increase orders for jump/break/players. I know I enjoy a hard tip, but nothing that will damage my balls. (That's what she... oh never mind).

My point was, no one given a choice is going to have a leather tip on a jump cue. Since you can only have one tip of leather on the J/B what good would the cue be. It would be an inferior jump cue and no one wants that. They want the best they can get. They alternative is a dedicated jump cue. No need for the J/B anymore.

muttley76
06-18-2009, 05:36 PM
That is not what we are discussing and not going to happen.


Hey, you were the one who asked about "changing shafts", lol. The truth is, not too many good players need phenolic tips on break cues. And most now have separate jump cues as well, so I don't see this as being too huge an issue.

frankncali
06-18-2009, 05:37 PM
I think people might find that they dont lose much on their break and that they might find more control.

I think a second shaft with a quick release joint is the way to go. I have a 2x4 case as do many and I dont have room for the butt of a dedicated jump cue.

macguy
06-18-2009, 05:37 PM
Phenolic Tip Rule


Effective June 1, 2009, the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League in “Equipment Specifications” under “Cues,” item d. states:

“The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, or pliable material.
Phenolic cue tips are not permitted.”

The BCA Pool League is amending this rule to state: “THE CUE TIP ON BREAK CUES MUST BE MADE OF LEATHER WITH NO NON-LEATHER MATERIALS ADDED TO THE CONTACTING SURFACE.” There have been questions asked, such as: “What if I break with my jump cue?” and similar questions. It is very simple. Whatever cue you break with must have a leather tip.

The reason for this rule is that the BCA Pool League has witnessed too many examples of damaged cue balls. After consultations with Aramith and Simonis, it has been determined the major contributing factor in cue ball damage is the hardness of the tip on break cues.

For several years the WPA has taken the position that the cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the cue ball. The BCAPL subscribes to the WPA philosophy.

This policy only applies to break cues. Jump cues are allowed to have a leather or non-leather tip - since it is difficult to stroke with enough force to cause damage.

This rule will be in effect at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships and regional tournaments that the BCAPL promotes. Promoters, directors and operators of events such as league play or local tournaments may alter the rules as they see fit.

Signed,
Bill Stock, BCAPL
Director of Referees and
Rules Administrator

Interestingly, if you read the last line they are not even calling for anyone to enforce it.

macguy
06-18-2009, 05:39 PM
Hey, you were the one who asked about "changing shafts", lol. The truth is, not too many good players need phenolic tips on break cues. And most now have separate jump cues as well, so I don't see this as being too huge an issue.

If someone builds B/J cues it is. Some guys that is all they build.

ajohnson13
06-18-2009, 05:39 PM
This policy only applies to break cues. Jump cues are allowed to have a leather or non-leather tip - since it is difficult to stroke with enough force to cause damage.



This is good to know as I break with my playing cue, and jump with a J&J with a WD tip on a Phenolic ferrule. No worries for me.

Pushout
06-18-2009, 06:14 PM
Hopefully they will just ban all jump cues. Too many people these days can't kick anyways. Lord knows I would be the first in line if they did.

Better they ban jump shots, period.

muttley76
06-18-2009, 06:16 PM
Better they ban jump shots, period.


If a guy can jump a full ball less than 2" away with a full cue, more power to him. But too many players use the jump cue as a crutch. Makes the shot far too easy. I would much rather ban the shot than continue to use these cheat tips, but that's just me. Sorry to hijack the thread. Won't do it again.

RRfireblade
06-18-2009, 07:17 PM
I think they should ban safety play.

SupaFoo
06-18-2009, 07:24 PM
My point was, no one given a choice is going to have a leather tip on a jump cue. Since you can only have one tip of leather on the J/B what good would the cue be. It would be an inferior jump cue and no one wants that. They want the best they can get. They alternative is a dedicated jump cue. No need for the J/B anymore.

Maybe if you only jump as a crutch. I for one play with the Samsara J/B and like that I can more effectively Masse jump with it's tip v. my old phenolic J/B.

jonesy
06-18-2009, 07:26 PM
Jump cues should be banned. Jumping with a full cue is a skill. It takes a great stroke to perform a jump shot with a shooting cue. Just because you have a cheater stick (jump cue) doesn't mean you should be able to use it in competition. The game would be better if they were not used ,if you can't jump with your playing cue you should learn to kick. People should remember that pool is a hard game and an art to perfect, and if it was that easy to pull off amazing shots it wouldn't be as great of a game as it is.

MitchAlsup
06-18-2009, 07:31 PM
I don't know anyone who would jump with a leather tip if they don't have to.

I thnk you have some of the physics and issues incorreclty positioned in your thining processes.

There are leather tips that are sufficiently hard that jumping is not made usefully any harder, and are sufficiently hard to serve as a break tip for those that can muster 25 MPH cue ball speeds. Look for tips in the 90 range on the durrometer (Water buffalo comes to mind).

A leather jump tip is vastly better for applying spin on jumps than is a phenolic tip. This spin can manifest itself as draw, follow and massé--and if you learn to control it, can be quite valuable.

A leather tip on a jump cue will miscue less often than the phenolic tip and give some margin for bridge-position or cue-aiming-at-cue-ball error.

There are some venues where my jump cue is also my short stick due to wall impediments. Having a leather tip here is vastly better than having my playing cue at 50 degrees above the horizontal.

Grumpy
06-18-2009, 10:04 PM
We have some all leather tips that are so hard they almost sound like a phenolic tip &
if you can "jump" you can jump over the light.
They run way over 100 on the hardness tester.
Plus they even hold some chalk.
BillDoes the new ruling regarding phenolic tips signal the end of the jump break cue? I don't know anyone who would jump with a leather tip if they don't have to. It may also usher back in the dedicated jump cue that was replaced by the J/B.

JB Cases
06-19-2009, 01:23 AM
We have some all leather tips that are so hard they almost sound like a phenolic tip &
if you can "jump" you can jump over the light.
They run way over 100 on the hardness tester.
Plus they even hold some chalk.
Bill

Doesn't this then run counter to the idea that the BCAPL is trying to reduce the hardness of the tips that strike the cue ball on the break?

How can anything be "way over 100 on the hardness tester" ? On my Durometer it used a needle to measure hardness and 100 was the limit. A block of steel and a diamond was a 100. Most phenolic tips were about 90-95.

So if a tip is harder than phenolic then it's not likely to be pliable or pure leather.

I guess my point is that if a tip has all the same properties of a phenolic resin tip including the sound of it then it's unlikely to be allowed for use no matter how much you protest that it's "leather".

The real point of all this is that the ban is only for break cues. This is probably not a bad thing overall. The phenolic tip was really invented to supplement the jump cue in the same way that the leather tip supplements the normal cue, by allowing a greater range of possible shots.

I personally can not see any advantage to having a cue that adds extra speed to the break when that same speed IS achievable through technique and practice. Using a jump cue IS different in that the best professional in the world CANNOT make the jump shots which are possible with a phenolic or similarly tipped jump cue if his jump cue does not have a tip with those properties.

Having a jump cue however raises the bar for everyone and make professionals that much better due to the increase in available shots that they can perform.

Another way to say it is that I can outdraw Mike Massey all day if my tip is leather and chalked and his cue has no tip and no chalk. However given the same equipment, be it the no-tip cue or the one with chalked leather tips he will outplay me in every way. The jump cue is that "same for all" tool.

Jumping the light isn't really a shot that's needed but it's nice to know that it's possible if you have the stroke for it.

skor
06-19-2009, 01:48 AM
Phenolic Tip Rule


Effective June 1, 2009, the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League in “Equipment Specifications” under “Cues,” item d. states:

“The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, or pliable material.
Phenolic cue tips are not permitted.”

The BCA Pool League is amending this rule to state: “THE CUE TIP ON BREAK CUES MUST BE MADE OF LEATHER WITH NO NON-LEATHER MATERIALS ADDED TO THE CONTACTING SURFACE.” There have been questions asked, such as: “What if I break with my jump cue?” and similar questions. It is very simple. Whatever cue you break with must have a leather tip.

The reason for this rule is that the BCA Pool League has witnessed too many examples of damaged cue balls. After consultations with Aramith and Simonis, it has been determined the major contributing factor in cue ball damage is the hardness of the tip on break cues.

For several years the WPA has taken the position that the cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the cue ball. The BCAPL subscribes to the WPA philosophy.

This policy only applies to break cues. Jump cues are allowed to have a leather or non-leather tip - since it is difficult to stroke with enough force to cause damage.

This rule will be in effect at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships and regional tournaments that the BCAPL promotes. Promoters, directors and operators of events such as league play or local tournaments may alter the rules as they see fit.

Signed,
Bill Stock, BCAPL
Director of Referees and
Rules Administrator

Jump cues with phenolic tips will damage the CB just as well...

Remember times when the balls used to be made from ivory? they used to crack a lot... And so the industrial plastic was invented, and evolved and today's balls are durable then ever. So now with phenolic tips they get damaged again, so it only means that it's time for another evolution step for the billiard balls.... Too bad we don't have people like Michael Phelan to throw in the motivation.....

knocking balls of the table and bad maintenance of the pockets and return systems damage the balls just the same so lets ban pockets and go back to play Carom....

Play cue, jump cue, break cue..... ban this ban that.... why is it OK to have several golf clubs designed for specific scenarios but it is not OK for pool?

You can't jump from every position, you still need to know how to kick.... jump cues are not the reason why people don't know how to kick, they just don't.... you can't blame draw shot for someone's lack of knowledge on how to force-follow....

JB Cases
06-19-2009, 01:51 AM
I thnk you have some of the physics and issues incorreclty positioned in your thining processes.

There are leather tips that are sufficiently hard that jumping is not made usefully any harder, and are sufficiently hard to serve as a break tip for those that can muster 25 MPH cue ball speeds. Look for tips in the 90 range on the durrometer (Water buffalo comes to mind).

Not entirely true. A standard Water Buffalo may test at a 90 but that is only on the glazed surface. I went through all this many years ago in my Instroke Tip testing craze where I made all sorts of charts with Durometer numbers on 10 points on each tip - both out of the box and after x-number of shots. I thought I was going to revolutionize how tips were bought and sold. This approach was based on Guido Orlandi's methods of rating tips which I expanded.

In my testing the Water Buffalo only performs close to the phenolic when it is highly compressed, very thin AND is glazed with a thin layer of super glue. During this time I had a dozen jump cues of various brands as well as hundreds of Bunjee Jumpers to test on.

A leather jump tip is vastly better for applying spin on jumps than is a phenolic tip. This spin can manifest itself as draw, follow and massé--and if you learn to control it, can be quite valuable.

Well, this seems true on the surface but since I saw at my Bunjee Booth, that Ned Morris drew the cueball table length after a table length corner to corner jump shot I have to conclude that it's largely how good your stroke is. Buddy Hall also did an impromptu demonstration once and showed us all just how well a professional can control the cue ball with a phenolic tipped jump cue. Lastly at one the Vegas tournaments Bob Meucci was playing around at our booth doing full cue masse' shots with the Bunjee Breaker. Later we put it on his machine and it tested better on deflection than a lot of the name brand cues he had tested up until that point.

I can apply a generous amount of spin on jump shots using my phenolic tipped Fury jump cue. This has to do with the amount of practice I have put in.


A leather tip on a jump cue will miscue less often than the phenolic tip and give some margin for bridge-position or cue-aiming-at-cue-ball error.

Got anything to back up this assertion? First there is a no-miscue area on the cueball and if your tip hits inside this circle then you will never miscue. If you hit outside the circle then you will always miscue.

I don't really get the idea that any sort of cue tip can make up for alignment or aiming errors. That seems like magic to me. Either you are lined up correctly or you are not. Pool cues are pretty democratic in this regard they hit the ball where they are pointed without regard to the player holding them. They neither help nor hinder a player's shot UNLESS you are speaking of deflection reduction and consistentcy which is outside this discussion.


There are some venues where my jump cue is also my short stick due to wall impediments. Having a leather tip here is vastly better than having my playing cue at 50 degrees above the horizontal.

If you are using it as a short stick then presumably you are addressing the ball on the horizontal - and yes a leather tip feels more comfortable. But as to whether it's inherently better..... well I played many times using ONLY the phenolic tipped jump cue and won nice sum of money a few times. I even ran eight and out using the phenolic tipped jump cue once. So I'd say that my own fairly deep experience in this area goes counter to what you are presenting as conventional wisdom. I even tortured a pair of UPA "pros" and made them quit while using the Fury Jump Break cue. And I mean TORTURED in the literal sense that I was running out from everywhere with no problem and giving them no air whatsoever.

Tommy-D
06-19-2009, 01:59 AM
> There was talk about this when the original jump cue "ban" went into effect,about how this might put the jump cue manufacturers/builders out of business. It didn't.

For those that weren't around,I'm certain the PBT (1994) banned the jump cue itself,and maybe the BCA did too,because there were instruments that had virtually no resemblance to a pool cue,that were being passed off as jump cues.

The popular version of this example was a 3 foot length of something close to 5/8 aluminum rod,with a great big slab of phenolic on it,that in some cases was meant to be used chalk-less,and usually had a bicycle-type hand grip on the end. I always heard this referred to as a "tire-buddy/knocker" type.

Allen Hopkins briefly marketed a gizmo called a Jump Tip,basically a great big aluminum joint protector with a similar phenolic tip,meant to be used on the butt of your playing cue. (like you'd really want to jump a ball with a clearcoated butt to start with :rolleyes:)

When the BCA first implemented the standards for jump cues (40" length,minimum or maximum weight,leather or pre-approved synthetic),I got a hold of some of the black Future tips,which at one time,(maybe not now) were certainly approved by them as acceptable.

These tips are no longer made,or at least not advertised. They were a hard but not unforgiving plastic,maybe something similar to PVC,because they smell like melting electrical tape when installing them. I put one of them on a old Micarta ferruled Schon shaft,and had Bill McDaniel make me a jump cue butt 12" in length to work with that shaft.

I still use that same jump cue to this day,and that was over 15 years ago. I can draw my rock with it,but still hard enough that the jump,with a properly executed stroke,is automatic up to the 3-4 inch range. I've only tried to jump a ball closer that that maybe 10 times in meangingful competition,and used just the shaft and a normal stroke.

Those tips were also dynamite on break cues,but their only drawback is getting them to stay on. I only have 1 left.

I personally won't see any demise in J/B cues,because I've never owned one. I've tried most,and although they may rock in one aspect,IMO most of them truly suck in the other,or maybe they're so-so in both. I've yet to find one that does both GREAT,hence seperate cues for me.

I doubt it will hurt anyone's bottom line. It may hurt some of the player's feelings,but it's not like that's a hard thing to do ;). Tommy D.

JB Cases
06-19-2009, 02:09 AM
Jump cues should be banned. Jumping with a full cue is a skill. It takes a great stroke to perform a jump shot with a shooting cue. Just because you have a cheater stick (jump cue) doesn't mean you should be able to use it in competition. The game would be better if they were not used ,if you can't jump with your playing cue you should learn to kick. People should remember that pool is a hard game and an art to perfect, and if it was that easy to pull off amazing shots it wouldn't be as great of a game as it is.

Why can't people stay on topic? If you really want to have pool be as hard it can be then let's all go back to the mace? Let's see how many balls you can run with that.

Jumping balls with a jump cue is a skill. PERIOD. If you don't believe it then I will be in Las Vegas next week and you are more than welcome to bring your jump cue and go head to head with me at $100 per shot.

I just spent an HOUR last night teaching the former Canadian champion the finer points of jumping with a jump cue. Not only did I have to coach her in the mechanics but also in the theory so that she left with a solid foundation to improve that aspect of her game.

In the 1800's an Englishman toured America and fascinated audiences with his mastery of the cueball in billiards. His name was Jack Carr. The spin that he was able to impart to the ball was thereafter referred to as "english". His gimmick, trick, secret.......he had a leather tip on his cue and used chalk to increase the friction. I bet an APA 5 today could have beaten Carr on his best day.

The point is that Carr introduced something that greatly widened the range of AVAILABLE shots. Let's say for the sake of argument that pre-Carr there were 100 makeable shots. And post-Carr there were now 200 makeable shots. Well it's obvious that the game didn't get easier with addition of more shots. Now it's easier to play position and also easier to miss position due to the increase in variables.

The jump cue as a tool does THE EXACT SAME THING. It increases the amount of available shots while also increasing the chances to make an error. Therefore the skilled players who actually practice with it are rewarded with more successful shots and the players who just use it as a crutch are punished with either failed shots or a complete lack of control over the cue ball.

I will give $1000 to the first person who can take a rank amateur and have them make ten jump shots in less than three attempts that I set up. You will not see the shots beforehand but I give you 30 minutes to train your player in how to jump using a jump cue. Since the jump cue is the thing that you say is responsible for all the great shots and not the player then it ought to be easy to take my money. Any takers?

skor
06-19-2009, 02:15 AM
Jump shot also make the game a 3D game so it has to be harder then a 2D game....

JB Cases
06-19-2009, 02:35 AM
For all those who think that you cannot apply Spin with a phenolic tip I refer you to this statement by no less than the greatest bank pool player who ever lived.

One time with Titanic Thompson -- I'm sure you've heard of him -- well Ti was in town and he saw me playing a guy that was a bookmaker playing for four hundred dollars a game, playing him 8-5 one pocket and I was playing one-handed with no tip on my cue. Now what happened was, I drew the ball about 6-7 inches with no tip, one-handed. So he said 'They'll be no more of that', and he got a glass of water and I had to dip the stick in the water each time before I shot, but I still beat him out of four thousand. Well Titanic saw that and said, 'That was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life!' - Eddie Taylor

Excerpted from this interview: http://www.onepocket.org/EddieTaylorInterview.htm

JamisonNeu
06-19-2009, 02:40 AM
For all those who think that you cannot apply Spin with a phenolic tip

This is one of the only times in years that I wanted to gamble on pool.

Grumpy
06-19-2009, 10:25 AM
The durometer sold by Porper is apparently calibrated a little differently & does not use a "needle" tip and a phenolic tip reads about 200. The tip in question does read over 100 and it is pure leather.
Thanks John for Taking a shot.
BillDoesn't this then run counter to the idea that the BCAPL is trying to reduce the hardness of the tips that strike the cue ball on the break?

How can anything be "way over 100 on the hardness tester" ? On my Durometer it used a needle to measure hardness and 100 was the limit. A block of steel and a diamond was a 100. Most phenolic tips were about 90-95.

So if a tip is harder than phenolic then it's not likely to be pliable or pure leather.

I guess my point is that if a tip has all the same properties of a phenolic resin tip including the sound of it then it's unlikely to be allowed for use no matter how much you protest that it's "leather".

The real point of all this is that the ban is only for break cues. This is probably not a bad thing overall. The phenolic tip was really invented to supplement the jump cue in the same way that the leather tip supplements the normal cue, by allowing a greater range of possible shots.

I personally can not see any advantage to having a cue that adds extra speed to the break when that same speed IS achievable through technique and practice. Using a jump cue IS different in that the best professional in the world CANNOT make the jump shots which are possible with a phenolic or similarly tipped jump cue if his jump cue does not have a tip with those properties.

Having a jump cue however raises the bar for everyone and make professionals that much better due to the increase in available shots that they can perform.

Another way to say it is that I can outdraw Mike Massey all day if my tip is leather and chalked and his cue has no tip and no chalk. However given the same equipment, be it the no-tip cue or the one with chalked leather tips he will outplay me in every way. The jump cue is that "same for all" tool.

Jumping the light isn't really a shot that's needed but it's nice to know that it's possible if you have the stroke for it.

JB Cases
06-19-2009, 07:22 PM
The durometer sold by Porper is apparently calibrated a little differently & does not use a "needle" tip and a phenolic tip reads about 200. The tip in question does read over 100 and it is pure leather.
Thanks John for Taking a shot.
Bill


Well with a little help from our friends at Google and Wikipedia we learn that there are several scales of hardness that a durometer measures and that the apparatus itself plays a large part in the outcome. My Durometer cost $300 and was designed to be a part of a larger apparatus that would apply constant pressure. I did not have the larger machine and so could not test using the resistance of the larger structure.

It's not about taking a shot. The fact of the matter is that NONE of us are experts in materials testing and NONE of us can show any true scientific controlled experiments to prove or disprove our assertions. All of our evidence comes from personal experience and anecdotal situations.

You may well have a "leather" tip that performs as well as a phenolic tip when it comes to jumping. I highly doubt that it came from the box that way based on what I know of this subject.

Or are these tips for sale somewhere, pre-manufactured and ready for use?

Are they available to the public at large and for all the jump-cue manaufacturers and break cue manaufacturers to use. Presumably you are wanting to say that these tips are NOT as hard as Phenolics and therefore WILL NOT damage the balls, right?

My only contention which remains my contention, is that IF the tips are no different in performance and even SOUND like Phenolics then how is the average BCA referee supposed to discern the difference?

JB Cases
06-19-2009, 07:26 PM
This is one of the only times in years that I wanted to gamble on pool.

Well obviously if we are talking your brand of spin then it is much easier when you have more give. But the point that the other person was attempting to make is that trying to apply spin using a phenolic tip is silly. The fact is Jamison that you know full well that I can and do play pool adequately with a phenolic tipped cue.

I am fully confident that with a little practice you could apply much more spin with the phenolic tipped cue than I could dream of.

Danktrees
06-19-2009, 07:34 PM
Does the new ruling regarding phenolic tips signal the end of the jump break cue? I don't know anyone who would jump with a leather tip if they don't have to. It may also usher back in the dedicated jump cue that was replaced by the J/B.

i jump with a hard leather tip on my carmeli j/b. it's better than any phenolic tip i've ever tried. all the people that i've let try it love it too. i can jump a ball that's an inch away with it pretty easily. perhaps u just never tried a leather tip that works?

macguy
06-19-2009, 07:38 PM
i jump with a hard leather tip on my carmeli j/b. it's better than any phenolic tip i've ever tried. all the people that i've let try it love it too. i can jump a ball that's an inch away with it pretty easily. perhaps u just never tried a leather tip that works?

What brand is the tip?

Quesports
06-19-2009, 07:54 PM
What brand is the tip?

Yea I want to know also, EH.....