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tigerseye
06-19-2009, 11:26 AM
I was keeping score the other night and i was having a hard time figuring out if this person was shooting defense or what... They clearly could not pocket the ball so they hit it and left the CB on the rail for a difficult shot.
I asked if that was defensive and they replied...nope i was just trying to make a good hit....
hmmm....
So what do you think????:confused:

cueguy
06-19-2009, 11:37 AM
I was keeping score the other night and i was having a hard time figuring out if this person was shooting defense or what... They clearly could not pocket the ball so they hit it and left the CB on the rail for a difficult shot.
I asked if that was defensive and they replied...nope i was just trying to make a good hit....
hmmm....
So what do you think????:confused:

In the APA, if you are not "offensively" trying to pocket a ball, then it is a defensive shot.
One year in Vegas, the ref said that our guy didn't hit the ball hard enough to actually be trying to make it (a bank) - so it is defensive!

Larry

Jude Rosenstock
06-19-2009, 12:07 PM
What is especially interesting is when a two-way shot is employed (a shot with offense AND defense in mind). For example, in the below scenario, any decent shot-maker will immediately call the bottom-left corner pocket and win the game but a savvy low-rank player might shoot the bank shot knowing a miss will leave their opponent nothing. Here, I would mark defense if missed even though they were clearly going for a shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HFAs2IYhR2PNXp3cFAs4cBtj1caEg2kNXp3kFhd@

Patrick Johnson
06-19-2009, 12:10 PM
I think you should be able to come up with a thread title that gives some clue what the topic is.

pj <- may be overestimating you
chgo

mikeyfrost
06-19-2009, 12:12 PM
Any non offensive shot is a safety...I got in an argument at Nationals last year with a ref when he ruled a kick shot a safety, normally no big deal but the way the match played out they had me down for over 10 safeties and we barely had that amount of innings. I was ducking a lot but not that much. If you kick hard its not a safety but if u kick to barely make contact it's still a safety in APA. How bout that ish???

frankncali
06-19-2009, 12:13 PM
What is especially interesting is when a two-way shot is employed (a shot with offense AND defense in mind). For example, in the below scenario, any decent shot-maker will immediately call the bottom-left corner pocket and win the game but a savvy low-rank player might shoot the bank shot knowing a miss will leave their opponent nothing. Here, I would mark defense if missed even though they were clearly going for a shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HFAs2IYhR2PNXp3cFAs4cBtj1caEg2kNXp3kFhd@

Thats a bit insane. :D
Would you still mark it defensive if it goes in the pocket?

I can see marking it if they have no intentions of it going but just becuase they shoot a smart OFFENSIVE shot doesnt mean that it should be marked defensive.

Good to see you bak online Jude. Have seen you on here in a while!
How did your BCA go?

BTW-- where can I find a couple of these low skilled savvy players?? :D

NewStroke
06-19-2009, 12:19 PM
This is one of the many reasons I left the APA. When I was young and beginning to learn pool, I was taught to call safety. I did the same thing in APA and people would still argue. It's not worth the effort just so you can remove an inning from my match.

Jude Rosenstock
06-19-2009, 12:21 PM
Thats a bit insane. :D
Would you still mark it defensive if it goes in the pocket?

I can see marking it if they have no intentions of it going but just becuase they shoot a smart OFFENSIVE shot doesnt mean that it should be marked defensive.

Good to see you bak online Jude. Have seen you on here in a while!
How did your BCA go?

BTW-- where can I find a couple of these low skilled savvy players?? :D


The point I'm making about marking defensive shots is, sometimes you have to wait for the outcome in order to make a ruling. Obviously, if the ball goes in, it's offense. If it doesn't go in, the shooter has played safe.


Regarding BCA, I had an okay showing. I wasn't very happy about how i was playing overall but I had these decent moments here and there. I won my first three in singles (don't know how). Thereafter, my poor play caught up with me. In scotch, we took 33rd out of 395 which was a lot of fun. In Master Team, we finished 12 of 13. I had about a .500 record in that event and was really happy about it, too!

NewStroke
06-19-2009, 12:21 PM
I almost forgot, one the main "problem" drunks that used to play missed the urinal, he got really p1ssed when I asked him if that was defensive.

Andrew Manning
06-19-2009, 12:26 PM
On my team we always ask each other.

Shooter shoots ambiguous shot, scorekeeper asks "defense?", shooter answers yes or no. I don't know what the other team's scoresheet is going to say, but I always know ours is accurate.

-Andrew

frankncali
06-19-2009, 12:44 PM
On my team we always ask each other.

Shooter shoots ambiguous shot, scorekeeper asks "defense?", shooter answers yes or no. I don't know what the other team's scoresheet is going to say, but I always know ours is accurate.

-Andrew

thats kind of how it is done here. Mainly certain people never seem to have defensive shots marked. Everyone assumes that the lower rated players never miss on purpose.

If anyone rattles the pocket and it doesnt go yet leave the cueball in a tough position for their opponnet I cant mark that a defensive shot. They were honestly trying to make the ball.

As for asking or letting scorekeepers know... how about this one..

In nationals we are playing a team and each time they are going to play a safety they would turn to the scorekeepers and say safe then shoot.

I could not believe that even the ref didnt understand why it was wrong. Even two teams next to us didnt...UNTIL I explained it to them. The ref actually looked like a lightbulb went off in his head when it dawned on him.

They received a sportsmanship warning but they did it a couple more times. Ref warned them again saying a penalty would happen if it continued. Not sure what they would have done.

They were pissed. I just asked them how they would like it if on every shot for the rest of the match my guys lined up and pointed to where he wanted the CB to end up AND then called timeout. I could refuse each time if he was on the right track. They seemed to understand then but still thought what they were doing wasnt hurting.

pooltchr
06-19-2009, 01:41 PM
What is especially interesting is when a two-way shot is employed (a shot with offense AND defense in mind). For example, in the below scenario, any decent shot-maker will immediately call the bottom-left corner pocket and win the game but a savvy low-rank player might shoot the bank shot knowing a miss will leave their opponent nothing. Here, I would mark defense if missed even though they were clearly going for a shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HFAs2IYhR2PNXp3cFAs4cBtj1caEg2kNXp3kFhd@

I must disagree. If an attempt is made to make the shot it is not defense. Now if the ob only came half way back up the table, I might consider it.

Steve

Jude Rosenstock
06-19-2009, 01:50 PM
I must disagree. If an attempt is made to make the shot it is not defense. Now if the ob only came half way back up the table, I might consider it.

Steve

That is part of the problem with marking APA safeties then, isn't it? This is clearly a two-way shot. I'm not saying ALL two-way shots should inherently be labeled as safeties if missed. I am saying, however, if the shooter takes a more difficult offensive shot because of the added benefit of defense, they should be marked for a defensive shot if they miss.

pooltchr
06-19-2009, 01:50 PM
In nationals we are playing a team and each time they are going to play a safety they would turn to the scorekeepers and say safe then shoot.

I could not believe that even the ref didnt understand why it was wrong. Even two teams next to us didnt...UNTIL I explained it to them. The ref actually looked like a lightbulb went off in his head when it dawned on him.

They received a sportsmanship warning but they did it a couple more times. Ref warned them again saying a penalty would happen if it continued. Not sure what they would have done.

They were pissed. I just asked them how they would like it if on every shot for the rest of the match my guys lined up and pointed to where he wanted the CB to end up AND then called timeout. I could refuse each time if he was on the right track. They seemed to understand then but still thought what they were doing wasnt hurting.

I'm not sure I see a problem with this. Whenever I play a defensive shot, I always try to say something to the scorekeepers like "mark that one" or "that was D". What's wrong with doing it before the shot? "Guess I have to play defense on this one".

Steve

cueguy
06-19-2009, 02:27 PM
That is part of the problem with marking APA safeties then, isn't it? This is clearly a two-way shot. I'm not saying ALL two-way shots should inherently be labeled as safeties if missed. I am saying, however, if the shooter takes a more difficult offensive shot because of the added benefit of defense, they should be marked for a defensive shot if they miss.

I disagree.
Here it is from the APA manual:
Defensive Shots: A defensive shot is a shot where the shooter deliberately misses so as to pass his turn at the table on to his opponent. A safety is a defensive shot because the shooter had no intention of making a ball of his category. Intention is the key word. Sometimes intent can be a matter of opinion and judgment, but the scorekeeper’s judgment must be accepted by the opposing player. Remember that defensive means deliberately missed.


IF the shooter has the intention of making the ball and leaves a hard shot - it is not a safety, rather it is just a good miss ;-)

Larry

pooltchr
06-19-2009, 02:43 PM
Exactly! Intent to make a ball is the one determining factor as to whether a shot is defense or not.

Here's a question, based on that rule. The shooter is hooked on his ball, and his only option is to kick at it. That ball is sitting right in the middle of a cushion. You know the shooter (let's say an SL3) will do well just to get a good hit. Do you mark it at defense, since the only real intent was to make sure they got a good hit? Even though the player didn't have much of a chance of making the ball anywhere?

Steve

NewStroke
06-19-2009, 02:48 PM
Exactly! Intent to make a ball is the one determining factor as to whether a shot is defense or not.

Here's a question, based on that rule. The shooter is hooked on his ball, and his only option is to kick at it. That ball is sitting right in the middle of a cushion. You know the shooter (let's say an SL3) will do well just to get a good hit. Do you mark it at defense, since the only real intent was to make sure they got a good hit? Even though the player didn't have much of a chance of making the ball anywhere?

Steve

This is exactly why this rule does not work and I hear the conversation come up all the time.

SpotMonster22
06-19-2009, 03:25 PM
In nationals we are playing a team and each time they are going to play a safety they would turn to the scorekeepers and say safe then shoot.

I could not believe that even the ref didnt understand why it was wrong. Even two teams next to us didnt...UNTIL I explained it to them. The ref actually looked like a lightbulb went off in his head when it dawned on him.

They received a sportsmanship warning but they did it a couple more times. Ref warned them again saying a penalty would happen if it continued. Not sure what they would have done.

They were pissed. I just asked them how they would like it if on every shot for the rest of the match my guys lined up and pointed to where he wanted the CB to end up AND then called timeout. I could refuse each time if he was on the right track. They seemed to understand then but still thought what they were doing wasnt hurting.

That's strange....because if you look at the sportsmanship award nomination form, one of the items listed as good sportsmanship is "Opponent announced defensive shots before making them"

Not sure I agree with the refs call.

ronhudson
06-19-2009, 04:22 PM
Exactly! Intent to make a ball is the one determining factor as to whether a shot is defense or not.

Here's a question, based on that rule. The shooter is hooked on his ball, and his only option is to kick at it. That ball is sitting right in the middle of a cushion. You know the shooter (let's say an SL3) will do well just to get a good hit. Do you mark it at defense, since the only real intent was to make sure they got a good hit? Even though the player didn't have much of a chance of making the ball anywhere?

Steve

Every call is based on the judgement of the scorekeeper. If the scorekeeper sees that the hit is just barely hard enough to score a hit on the object ball, then there was no attempt to pocket a ball. Since there's no need to call a pocket, a hit that sends the object ball across the table to another rail was not defensive as the object ball had an opportunity to fall into any pocket within its range.

poolplayer2093
06-19-2009, 04:27 PM
In the APA, if you are not "offensively" trying to pocket a ball, then it is a defensive shot.
One year in Vegas, the ref said that our guy didn't hit the ball hard enough to actually be trying to make it (a bank) - so it is defensive!

Larry

they don't allow defensive shots in vegas?

i heard something about only being allowed to play 2 safes. is that true?

cueguy
06-19-2009, 05:50 PM
they don't allow defensive shots in vegas?

i heard something about only being allowed to play 2 safes. is that true?

I don't know about the 2 safeties, but they want it marked correctly for the handicapping system.

okinawa77
06-19-2009, 07:05 PM
Exactly. In APA, it's the scorekeeper's call (opposing team), but if the opposing team's score sheet looks ridiculous, then you can make a claim (with the LO).
Obviously, if the game has 2 innings, and 6 safeties marked down on 1 player, then just make sure your scoresheet is accurate, because when the LO sees that their sheet is not accurate, then they will lose their scoring bonus.

When I play, and the scorekeeper asks me if it's a safety. I just tell the scorekeeper, if I don't pocket a ball on a shot, then mark it as a safety. It keeps things simple, and 95% of the time, it's absolutely true. I get asked often, because I shoot a lot of 2 way shots, but, if I am definitely shooting a safety, I call it before I shoot.
I think calling a safety before you shoot the shot, makes you commit to executing the safety shot successfully.

JDB
06-19-2009, 07:24 PM
That is part of the problem with marking APA safeties then, isn't it? This is clearly a two-way shot. I'm not saying ALL two-way shots should inherently be labeled as safeties if missed. I am saying, however, if the shooter takes a more difficult offensive shot because of the added benefit of defense, they should be marked for a defensive shot if they miss.

Actually, I would argue that a two-way shot should NEVER be marked as a safety because their is an intent to make a shot. The other intent is to leave the opponent bad IF the shot is missed.

This is good play and should not be marked a safety IMO.

I will always err to the safety side on a two shot, but that doesn't mean I didn't have the intent to make the object ball. In the APA intent is everything regarding safeties.

Jude Rosenstock
06-19-2009, 08:04 PM
Actually, I would argue that a two-way shot should NEVER be marked as a safety because their is an intent to make a shot. The other intent is to leave the opponent bad IF the shot is missed.

This is good play and should not be marked a safety IMO.

I will always err to the safety side on a two shot, but that doesn't mean I didn't have the intent to make the object ball. In the APA intent is everything regarding safeties.

Well, I think that is partly the problem with such catagorized score-keeping. In the example I provided, the shooter is obviously making a decision that compromises an immediate win for the sake of having a defensive option.

In the APA manual, the definition reads as follows:

SAFETY: A defensive action taken when a player either has no “makeable” or
“high percentage” shot or chooses to leave his opponent in a difficult situation. It
is a legal shot and is not considered to be dirty pool. A safety must still conform
with the rule concerning hitting the correct ball first and striking a rail afterwards.
If a correct ball is accidentally pocketed while playing safe, the shooter must
continue to shoot. Players with integrity call their safeties.


In the example I provided, there is an easier offensive option yet the shooter chose to leave his opponent in a difficult situation in the event of a miss. If the score-keeper chooses to not mark a defensive shot, obviously this is not the worst violation of marking a defensive inning but there is no doubt, at least in my mind, that defense was the primary intent of the shooter.

CreeDo
06-19-2009, 08:34 PM
You can't judge anything by the shooter's intent, and pretty much all rules work in a way where guessing what is in the other guy's head is not required.

Therefore I'm inclined to say anything's a safe if it appeared to have no chance of going into a pocket. That still requires a judgment call (trying to define what had "no chance") but at least it doesn't require mindreading.

The APA LO I had stressed marking uncalled safeties as a key part of preventing sandbagging.

frankncali
06-19-2009, 10:12 PM
I'm not sure I see a problem with this. Whenever I play a defensive shot, I always try to say something to the scorekeepers like "mark that one" or "that was D". What's wrong with doing it before the shot? "Guess I have to play defense on this one".

Steve

Say I am shooting and your my coach. I have a choice between playing safe or going for the ball.

Now if you know that EVERY time I play safe I announce it before shooting then you as a coach know what I am going to do. If I announce "safe" and you dont think that its the best shot for me then you call TimeOut. If not you let me play on.
Also more important is knowing that I am going for a ball...since I did not announce it.

Also the rule where a coach can refuse a TO has been abused by a few teams. Players can ask frequently for a TO after lining up on a shot. If its ok then the coach can refuse.

All of these type issues can be fixed by having all honest people playing but we really can't assume that or even dream that it would ahppen.

SpotMonster22
06-21-2009, 08:04 AM
In the example I provided, there is an easier offensive option yet the shooter chose to leave his opponent in a difficult situation in the event of a miss. If the score-keeper chooses to not mark a defensive shot, obviously this is not the worst violation of marking a defensive inning but there is no doubt, at least in my mind, that defense was the primary intent of the shooter.

We have this argument on my team about two way shots a lot...

Jude, I'm curious would you still consider this a defensive shot based on shot selection alone, even if your impression was that the shooter really gave their best effort to nail the bank?

SpotMonster22
06-21-2009, 08:28 AM
Say I am shooting and your my coach. I have a choice between playing safe or going for the ball.

Now if you know that EVERY time I play safe I announce it before shooting then you as a coach know what I am going to do. If I announce "safe" and you dont think that its the best shot for me then you call TimeOut. If not you let me play on.
Also more important is knowing that I am going for a ball...since I did not announce it.

Also the rule where a coach can refuse a TO has been abused by a few teams. Players can ask frequently for a TO after lining up on a shot. If its ok then the coach can refuse.

All of these type issues can be fixed by having all honest people playing but we really can't assume that or even dream that it would ahppen.

I really don't get why this is such a big deal...With only one time out per game, the only thing you can communicate to your player is, "I don't want to burn a time out over this." Unless you've got some "secret signal" in the way you don't call a time out.

If it means that players are going to call their less obvious defensive shots (those that just miss a pocket), and we have more accurate handicaps, I think that's much more important to creating a fair competitive environment than avoiding the possibility of giving the coach a heads up that a player is going to play defense.

If everyone called all of their defensive shots before making them, there wouldn't be an issue. All coaches would have that advantage, and we'd probably have more accurate scorekeeping.

I agree there is a slight strategic advantage, but I really don't mind. I think it would be refreshing if people saw accurate recording of defensive shots as strategically advantageous, rather than just something to avoid being DQ'd.

Jude Rosenstock
06-21-2009, 10:03 AM
We have this argument on my team about two way shots a lot...

Jude, I'm curious would you still consider this a defensive shot based on shot selection alone, even if your impression was that the shooter really gave their best effort to nail the bank?

I think two scorekeepers are entitled to have a different number of defensive shots. I KNOW this is defense but it doesn't need to be scored that way. There is no doubt in my mind that shots such as the one I showed can run up innings and there is no doubt that knowledge to play such a shot shows a degree of skill. It's not JUST a miss even though there was a genuine effort to pocket the ball.