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cuetechasaurus
03-11-2010, 11:41 PM
In a league match tonight, my opponent broke, then ran all the balls down to his last ball, and partially hooked himself behind one of my balls. He couldn't see his ball enough to shoot it straight in, but he could see about half of his ball, and there was a possible carom off one of my balls. It wasn't an easy carom, he would have to hit the shot with force to make it.

He didn't call a shot, or call safe. He got down and shot it, and hit it pretty hard. He made the carom, and he started walking to the side of the table the cue ball was traveling to, acting like he was going to shoot again. The cue ball came to a stop frozen behind one of my balls, leaving him hooked. As soon as the ball stopped, he paused for a second, and went and sat down.

I'm not sure on the rule if neither a safe or a shot is called, and a ball is pocketed. He left me frozen to my ball with no shot, and the 8 was hanging near a hole, so a safety was difficult.

I asked him what his intention was, and he said he was playing safe. This made no sense to me, since the guy is a decent player, and he hit the ball very hard, scattering the balls. I asked him if he called safe, and he said he did, but I didn't hear or see him say anything. His back was turned to me, so if he said it he must have whispered it.

Could I have made him shoot again? This brings up another question, what if it seemed like there was no possible shot, and he said nothing, and his ball goes 4 or 5 rails around the table and goes in. Could I still have made him shoot again?

GoTulane
03-11-2010, 11:54 PM
Well, it seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made, and therefore it would be difficult to truly know what was happening and what the shooter was trying, in order to make a call.

The first mistake you made was not asking the opposing player what he was doing with the shot, before he took it. That way, he would have told you his intentions (safe, which pocket, etc), and the next call would have been made that much easier for yourself. On really tough shoots that could have many factors that can come into question, I always ask my opponent his intentions before he shoots, so that there are no arguments after the shot.

For me, I will always tell my opponent what I am doing on a difficult shot, and what the consequences are, so that nothing comes into question. In the end it is a game, and fair play is important to me.

Learn your lesson, and next time make sure that your opponent and yourself are always on the same page, and therefore limit any questions after a shot.

I feel most of my opponents are fair and good sports, but there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification on a difficult shot in a tough position.

In the end, your opponent did not call a pocket, so it can be assumed to be a safety shot - wasn't calling anything - and the shot was not a high percentage shot. Therefore, no matter what his body language was saying to you, he did not call the shot, and therefore it is your turn.

Just some thoughts, since I have been there and done that too.

Michael

danquixote
03-11-2010, 11:58 PM
In a league match tonight, my opponent broke, then ran all the balls down to his last ball, and partially hooked himself behind one of my balls. He couldn't see his ball enough to shoot it straight in, but he could see about half of his ball, and there was a possible carom off one of my balls. It wasn't an easy carom, he would have to hit the shot with force to make it.

He didn't call a shot, or call safe. He got down and shot it, and hit it pretty hard. He made the carom, and he started walking to the side of the table the cue ball was traveling to, acting like he was going to shoot again. The cue ball came to a stop frozen behind one of my balls, leaving him hooked. As soon as the ball stopped, he paused for a second, and went and sat down.

I'm not sure on the rule if neither a safe or a shot is called, and a ball is pocketed. He left me frozen to my ball with no shot, and the 8 was hanging near a hole, so a safety was difficult.

I asked him what his intention was, and he said he was playing safe. This made no sense to me, since the guy is a decent player, and he hit the ball very hard, scattering the balls. I asked him if he called safe, and he said he did, but I didn't hear or see him say anything. His back was turned to me, so if he said it he must have whispered it.

Could I have made him shoot again? This brings up another question, what if it seemed like there was no possible shot, and he said nothing, and his ball goes 4 or 5 rails around the table and goes in. Could I still have made him shoot again?

Seems to me that this is not a rule question, as a player is required to call the ball and pocket. What this is going to boil down to is ...did he really call safe, and who if anyone verified the call to you. The burden of communicating intent falls upon the shooter, but you as an opposing player also have the responsibility and the right to knowing his intent prior to shooting......Will the LO say announcing a safe to his teammate was good enough, or will he side with you and declare your opponent must insure you are aware of his intent prior to shooting. Perhaps an answer may be found on his teams scoresheet, if it was recorded as a miss and then changed to reflect a safety.....your arguement will have plenty of weight.....Dan

Mike in MN
03-12-2010, 12:07 AM
Far too often in league play I see players who are taken advantage of due to inattention to their own game. I can't count how many times I've seen players fail to notice a foul because they weren't paying attention while their opponent was shooting. Same goes for your case. Whether or not you were paying attention, I can't say for sure. But one thing is certain: Never rely on the honor system. For every guy that will tell you the truth, there are five who won't. Remember, it's pool, and pool players are dirty, no-good liars and cheaters :p

cuetechasaurus
03-12-2010, 12:11 AM
In the end, your opponent did not call a pocket, so it can be assumed to be a safety shot - wasn't calling anything - and the shot was not a high percentage shot. Therefore, no matter what his body language was saying to you, he did not call the shot, and therefore it is your turn.

Just some thoughts, since I have been there and done that too.

Michael

The circumstances showed that there was no safe. He was down to his last ball, all of my balls were wide open. The carom was the only possible shot. He hit the shot hard, scattering several balls on the table. He acted as if he was getting ready to shoot again. The cue ball traveled three or four rails around the table, and came to rest frozen behind one of my balls. When that happened, he paused for a second, and then went and sat down.

GADawg
03-12-2010, 03:29 AM
I think BCAPL Rules state something to the effect that obvious shots do not have to be called but banks, kicks and combinations are never considered obvious and must be called. I would think a carom would fall under this same rule as it is not obvious.

If that is the case and he did not call the carom, then the ball made does not count and it is your shot. If he had had an open shot on the 8 then it still would not be his shot.

I agree with the others that you should have asked his intentions before the shot to be clear. Then there would be no doubt.

Also, if he was playing safe, having his team mates hear the call is of no consequence. Either the opponent or a referee must hear the call.

Forgot your last question. If he makes no call of ball and pocket and a ball banks 4 or 5 rails and goes into a pocket, then, to me, it would not count as a legally pocketed ball and it would be your shot. On the other hand, it the ball was hanging or very near a pocket and he completely missed the all but the cue went round the table and then pocketed the ball, that one should count, I think. But in any case, how he might leave the opponent is of no consequence in determining the legality of the shot.

The best solution to this never ending conundrum is the have a rule that every shot must be called, either ball and pocket, or safe.

satman
03-12-2010, 07:24 AM
In a league match tonight, my opponent broke, then ran all the balls down to his last ball, and partially hooked himself behind one of my balls. He couldn't see his ball enough to shoot it straight in, but he could see about half of his ball, and there was a possible carom off one of my balls. It wasn't an easy carom, he would have to hit the shot with force to make it.

He didn't call a shot, or call safe. He got down and shot it, and hit it pretty hard. He made the carom, and he started walking to the side of the table the cue ball was traveling to, acting like he was going to shoot again. The cue ball came to a stop frozen behind one of my balls, leaving him hooked. As soon as the ball stopped, he paused for a second, and went and sat down.

?

If you're playing BCA rules, he can't play a carom off one of your balls to make his. That's a foul. You had ball in hand. If you're playing any standard league rules, including APA or VNEA, it's a foul too.

dr9ball
03-12-2010, 07:43 AM
If you're playing BCA rules, he can't play a carom off one of your balls to make his. That's a foul. You had ball in hand. If you're playing any standard league rules, including APA or VNEA, it's a foul too.

I believe the player can make a carom off of the opponents balls if it is the object ball that caroms not the cue ball. For example, a player shoots his 7 ball into his opponent's 15 ball making the 7 in the corner. I see nothing in the rules that prevent this type of carom.

ronhudson
03-12-2010, 07:48 AM
A carom is a carom.


oooooh, I know. How about if we get everyone to use a coaster or something else to mark the pocket on each shot....

Big_H515
03-12-2010, 07:49 AM
If you're playing BCA rules, he can't play a carom off one of your balls to make his. That's a foul. You had ball in hand. If you're playing any standard league rules, including APA or VNEA, it's a foul too.


playing a carom of your opponents ball is not a foul. If your ball is struck first whatever happens after the fact doesn't matter so long as the object ball falls into the called pocket.

boblzer0
03-12-2010, 08:09 AM
this is the correct answer. if you don't call a carom, bank, or combo in bca it's a non called shot and it would be your shot regardless. you should've jumped up out of your seat as soon as he shot it. he knew what was going on i'm sure.

I think BCAPL Rules state something to the effect that obvious shots do not have to be called but banks, kicks and combinations are never considered obvious and must be called. I would think a carom would fall under this same rule as it is not obvious.

If that is the case and he did not call the carom, then the ball made does not count and it is your shot. If he had had an open shot on the 8 then it still would not be his shot.

I agree with the others that you should have asked his intentions before the shot to be clear. Then there would be no doubt.

Also, if he was playing safe, having his team mates hear the call is of no consequence. Either the opponent or a referee must hear the call.

Forgot your last question. If he makes no call of ball and pocket and a ball banks 4 or 5 rails and goes into a pocket, then, to me, it would not count as a legally pocketed ball and it would be your shot. On the other hand, it the ball was hanging or very near a pocket and he completely missed the all but the cue went round the table and then pocketed the ball, that one should count, I think. But in any case, how he might leave the opponent is of no consequence in determining the legality of the shot.

The best solution to this never ending conundrum is the have a rule that every shot must be called, either ball and pocket, or safe.

Richm
03-12-2010, 09:36 AM
BCA is call pocket only. as long as you hit your ball first and call a pocket you are ok. you do not have to call caroms banks just ball and pocket. obvious shots do not have to be called.
The shot you are describing would not be obvious so if he did not call ball and pocket it is your shot

satman
03-12-2010, 12:30 PM
playing a carom of your opponents ball is not a foul. If your ball is struck first whatever happens after the fact doesn't matter so long as the object ball falls into the called pocket.

I mis-read the post. That's what happens when you're doing 2 things at once.

Big Perm
03-12-2010, 12:42 PM
The circumstances showed that there was no safe. He was down to his last ball, all of my balls were wide open. The carom was the only possible shot. He hit the shot hard, scattering several balls on the table. He acted as if he was getting ready to shoot again. The cue ball traveled three or four rails around the table, and came to rest frozen behind one of my balls. When that happened, he paused for a second, and then went and sat down.

As far as I know, if the shot isn't obvious, he should have to call the pocket.....otherwise, he should have announced a safe....he may not have broken the rules, but it seems he might be stretching the spirit of them....based on what you said, it appears that if he had a shot, he was going to continue, which insinuates that he was, in fact, trying to make that shot....

Going forward, sounds like he's someone you'd want question beforehand in a similar situation...

I sincerely disagree with the notion that you have to watch and catch people making fouls......it's a game for gentlemen and real women.....you should never have to "catch" someone in a foul.....they should be the first to point it out....it's a game of honor, or at least that's how I see it....

cuetechasaurus
03-12-2010, 04:06 PM
This is strange, other people told me that since he did not call safe and pocketed a ball, I could have made him shoot again. Is this covered in the rule book?

ridewiththewind
03-12-2010, 04:44 PM
2.8 Safety Play

Prior to any shot except the break, you may declare a safety. On a safety, your inning ends after the shot regardless of whether you pocket any ball. You must declare the safety to your opponent before the shot, and they must acknowledge your intentions. If you do not declare a safety or it is not acknowledged, and you pocket an obvious ball, your inning continues and you must shoot again. A safety must meet the requirements of a legal shot or it is a foul.

IMHO...the carom shot/the shot actually taken was definitely NOT an obvious shot. This is why I make my intentions clear, whether I have to or not...avoids a lot of arguments that way.

Lisa

Maniac
03-12-2010, 04:50 PM
This is strange, other people told me that since he did not call safe and pocketed a ball, I could have made him shoot again.

IMO, and the way I read it in the rules, the "other people" are wrong. Only obvious shots need to be called. The shot you describe is FAR from obvious. He may of just been hitting his ball as to not give up ball-in-hand. Since no pocket was called on an unobvious shot, the shot does not count. It was your shot. It doesn't matter whether a safety was called. Safties are shot all the time without a player calling them.

The sad thing is, if he hadn't of hooked himself, I'm sure there would have been a disagreement anyways as to whose shot it was.

The best way to handle an opponent shooting any shot that is not obvious to you is to ask what his/her intentions are before the player is into his stance.

Maniac

Maniac
03-12-2010, 04:57 PM
2.8 Safety Play

Prior to any shot except the break, you may declare a safety. On a safety, your inning ends after the shot regardless of whether you pocket any ball. You must declare the safety to your opponent before the shot, and they must acknowledge your intentions. If you do not declare a safety or it is not acknowledged, and you pocket an obvious ball, your inning continues and you must shoot again. A safety must meet the requirements of a legal shot or it is a foul.

IMHO...the carom shot/the shot actually taken was definitely NOT an obvious shot. This is why I make my intentions clear, whether I have to or not...avoids a lot of arguments that way.

Lisa

The only real reasons a safety needs to be called is if 1.) You are going to make one of your own balls and give up the table, and 2.) if there is a chance of someone accidentally pocketing an obvious ball during the execution of a safety (as is mentioned in the quoted post/rule).

Many safeties are not called simply because if a ball and pocket are not called, the table is going to be relinquished to the other player anyway.

Maniac

ssminn
03-14-2010, 07:30 PM
Perhaps a new rule is required. If a player fails to call a ball & pocket or to call “Safety”, and a ball from his group is pocketed, the opponent has the right to take the next shot or give it back to the original shooter. “Obvious shot” rule is not changed.

GADawg
03-14-2010, 07:49 PM
Perhaps a new rule is required. If a player fails to call a ball & pocket or to call “Safety”, and a ball from his group is pocketed, the opponent has the right to take the next shot or give it back to the original shooter. “Obvious shot” rule is not changed.

OR, just take away the "obvious shots not called" option and just call every shot. Easy and no question.

Celtic
03-14-2010, 08:36 PM
If you're playing BCA rules, he can't play a carom off one of your balls to make his. That's a foul. You had ball in hand. If you're playing any standard league rules, including APA or VNEA, it's a foul too.

That is simply wrong.

Grilled Cheese
03-14-2010, 09:34 PM
He couldn't see his ball enough to shoot it straight in

He didn't call a shot, or call safe.

He got down and shot it,

He made the carom


I trimmed down your post to include the only relevant facts.

Fact 1: No direct shot. AKA, no obvious shot of an object ball directly to a pocket.

Fact 2: No ball called, no safety called.

Fact 3: An OB was made via carom - an indirect shot that requires being called.


Since all non direct shots MUST be called, and your opponent did not call a shot nor call safe - then your opponent's turn at the table is OVER.

It's that simple. Done.


You have the right to ask your opponent his intentions; however, it isn't your responsibility to ensure that a shot is called. It's the shooter's responsibility. They don't call it, they lose their turn.


There's no controversy. BCA rules are the best rules in the world because they account for every situation. It's extremely and exceedingly rare to run into a situation that isn't covered by the rules in a clear and direct manner.

If and when that does happen, those situations quickly become hot topics of discussion among the pros and the experts as well as other high level enthusiasts of the game. As a result, the matter is taken up by the "governing" bodies of the game and new wording or new rule is written to deal with the issue.

pocketspeed
03-15-2010, 05:44 AM
i could be wrong here (and if i am i am sure someone will point it out) but current rules do not specify what an "obvious" shot is or is not. they leave out the whole bank, combo, carom, etc...

obvious shots are different for different pple. if both the OP and his opponent saw this carom then the shot was obvious to both of them. for the OP its obvious that his opponent is a cheater. he was trying to make the carom, made it and then was hooked and then said he called safe. a safe isnt called until your opponent acknowledges it. the OPs opponent should have been still at the table dealing with the unintentional hook.

brian

stuckart
03-15-2010, 10:53 AM
Lots of good information on here so far.

Here is the answer for BCA Rules.

The shot was not an obvious shot therefore if he made a ball or not it was your turn after the balls stopped rolling. He didn't foul, so you don't get ball-in-hand. There is absolutely zero reason for him to call safe on the shot. Doing so would do absolutely nothing. In 8-ball you only really need to call safe if you are going to shoot an obvious ball in the pocket.

At the National BCA Tournament in 2008 they had amended a rule that said all non-obvious shots had to be called. It stated something like any Kick, Carom, Bank or Combination were not obvious shots and should always be called.

heit8
03-15-2010, 11:05 AM
This has happened to someone on my team before in playoffs, and if they did not call safty and pocketed a ball you can make them shoot again.

Neil
03-15-2010, 11:34 AM
...............

pocketspeed
03-15-2010, 12:54 PM
Bottom line is, it's your turn because he didn't call the shot. I agree that he was probably trying to pull a move on you, and if he had a clear shot next, he would have tried to shoot it. If he did, that is when you would have a complaint against him. Possibly even unsportsmanship conduct for shooting out of turn. But, as it is, it's just your turn. Caroms, no matter how obvious or easy, are never termed obvious shots, and must therefore be called. He didn't call it.

just curious as to how you would define "obvious". the rule book eliminates the "bank, kiss, combo" etc... verbiage. the OP and his opponent both saw the shot. it was the only shot available. doesnt that make it the obvious shot?

brian

ridewiththewind
03-15-2010, 01:07 PM
just curious as to how you would define "obvious". the rule book eliminates the "bank, kiss, combo" etc... verbiage. the OP and his opponent both saw the shot. it was the only shot available. doesnt that make it the obvious shot?

brian

No it doesn't.



2009-2010 BCA Rule Book

Obvious Shots

A shot in which the non-shooting player has no doubt as to, or does not question, the called ball and the called pocket. The following types of shots are exceptions and are defined as being "not obvious":

a. bank shots;

b. kick shots;

c. combination shots;

The list is not necessarily all-inclusive. For other shots, the referee is the sole judge of whether a shot is obvious or not.


Lisa =====> wondering if she's the only one who gets, keeps, and actually reads her BCAPL mini rule book...heck, they're included with your BCAPL membership.

pocketspeed
03-15-2010, 01:19 PM
No it doesn't.



2009-2010 BCA Rule Book

Obvious Shots

A shot in which the non-shooting player has no doubt as to, or does not question, the called ball and the called pocket. The following types of shots are exceptions and are defined as being "not obvious":

a. bank shots;

b. kick shots;

c. combination shots;

The list is not necessarily all-inclusive. For other shots, the referee is the sole judge of whether a shot is obvious or not.


Lisa =====> wondering if she's the only one who gets, keeps, and actually reads her BCAPL mini rule book...heck, they're included with your BCAPL membership.

well i stand corrected.

and yes you are

brian

ridewiththewind
03-15-2010, 01:20 PM
Wow!....well, that would certainly explain a lot! LoL!!!

Lisa

smoooothstroke
03-15-2010, 02:28 PM
just curious as to how you would define "obvious". the rule book eliminates the "bank, kiss, combo" etc... verbiage. the OP and his opponent both saw the shot. it was the only shot available. doesnt that make it the obvious shot?

brian


Permission to use this quote for my sig line.

Brian in the kangeroo court court I hearby sentence you to read every AZ thread ever posted:P

pocketspeed
03-15-2010, 02:52 PM
Permission to use this quote for my sig line.

Brian in the kangeroo court court I hearby sentence you to read every AZ thread ever posted:P

not sure how to take your post.

what if i already have?

brian=>shouldnt confuse world standardized rules with league rules...

ridewiththewind
03-15-2010, 03:00 PM
The reality is this:

Every few days there is another rules thread, and usually it involves questions concerning BCA rules.

Now I KNOW that every league that joins the BCAPL is sent a current BCA rule book, in a mini size to handily fit into a case pocket, a current session patch, and each player gets a membership card with a membership #.

So, for so many people to have so many rules questions just leaves me scratchin' my noodle...the answer should be right in your case! I mean, I do get the whole male 'won't read the instruction manual' or 'won't stop to ask for directions' thing....but seriously, when the answer is so close at hand, whether it be via the handy dandy rule book or the online access to the rules...it just makes no sense to me.

I carry my rule book with me every time I go out to play...but then again, I also call every ball and pocket, whether necessary or not....an ounce of prevention and all.

Lisa =====> never runs into these types of problems.

blah blah
03-15-2010, 04:06 PM
The reality is this:

Every few days there is another rules thread, and usually it involves questions concerning BCA rules.

Now I KNOW that every league that joins the BCAPL is sent a current BCA rule book, in a mini size to handily fit into a case pocket, a current session patch, and each player gets a membership card with a membership #.

So, for so many people to have so many rules questions just leaves me scratchin' my noodle...the answer should be right in your case! I mean, I do get the whole male 'won't read the instruction manual' or 'won't stop to ask for directions' thing....but seriously, when the answer is so close at hand, whether it be via the handy dandy rule book or the online access to the rules...it just makes no sense to me.

I carry my rule book with me every time I go out to play...but then again, I also call every ball and pocket, whether necessary or not....an ounce of prevention and all.

Lisa =====> never runs into these types of problems.

I have that book, love it, and keep it in my case, too.

But I joined a BCA league this season (we started last week). The day before our first match, we received the rules that will replace some of the BCA rules. These included (and I paste some of the weirdest):

Legal Shots:
--Push shots are legal. (They are not legal in BCA Tournaments).
--A masse shot as long as the hand holding the butt of the stick is under the armpit.
--Moving a ball. If any stationary balls, that sit between player and cue ball, are accidentally moved by the player with any part of the body, clothing, jewelry, cue stick, mechanical bridge, chalk, etc. the opponent has the option of moving the ball back to its original position or leaving it where it sits. Player at table continues to shoot after determination of ball has been executed. (this isn't weird until you look at the list of fouls)
--Touching a stationary ball that sits between player and cue ball (again, this isn't weird until you look at the list of fouls)


Fouls:
--Jump shots---(At BCA Tournaments Jump shots are legal only when executed in front of a referee).
--If a safety shot is called and executed by player (Legal at BCA Tournaments)
--Touching or moving any balls in front of or to the sides of the cue ball [emphasis added]
--Teammates telling a player if he/she has stripes or solids even if player asks (Player should pay attention to his/her game)

HOWEVER:
--Scratch Shots: A scratch on the break is not a foul. When the player scratches the cue ball on the break, his opponent has ball in hand behind the head string. The base of the ball must be behind the head string. When a player is placing the cue ball behind the head string and uses his cue stick to do so, it is not a foul. If the cue stick hits the cue ball and it does not cross the head string, it is not considered a shot. If the cue ball does cross the head string it is considered a shot. When a player has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and his only balls are within the head string, player’s only option is a kick shot. When a player scratches he/she will announce that they have done so to the opponent. [emphasis added]

I made sure to loudly announce to absolutely everybody when I scratched (although I really did think they should be paying enough attention to their game to notice the cueball was missing from the table). And I couldn't get a clear definition of a push shot after three emailed attempts with YouTube videos.

I've been irritated ever since we got the new rules. I'm trying to just keep a sense of humor.

Neil
03-15-2010, 04:12 PM
...............

blah blah
03-15-2010, 04:42 PM
Say what??? It's a foul to call a safety???

I was going to make a seperate thread on it, but decided not to. This is, IMHO, one of the biggest things holding back pool. No matter what room you go to, what tournament, what league, even the same room everyday but different people, you have different rules. It's a joke and a travesty that only pool can not come up with a uniform set of rules to be followed everywhere. You bowl, it's the same rules across the country, same with every other sport. Why should anyone take pool serious when we can't even come up with uniform rules to the game?? You can't just going making up whatever rules you want to and expect anyone else to take you serious.

Lolol. Honestly, I think they mean when you call Safety, make one of your balls, and then expect your inning to be over. I'm only guessing, though, because I copied and pasted the entire rule right there.

...On the larger issue, yes, I do strongly agree with you. But for humor value, I will quote a friend, who ends every single argument, whether it applies or not, even whether anyone agrees or not, with the statement:

THAT'S why they need to legalize marijuana!

GADawg
03-15-2010, 05:44 PM
just curious as to how you would define "obvious". the rule book eliminates the "bank, kiss, combo" etc... verbiage. the OP and his opponent both saw the shot. it was the only shot available. doesnt that make it the obvious shot?

brian

Under BCAPl it is pretty well defined. Any kick, carom, bank or combination is not obvious and must be called.

For my own purposes, i will also call any shot which is not a hanger or a simple direct line shot to a pocket.

I want my opponent to know what I am doing and do everything i can to be sure he does.

On the other side, if I am not absolutely sure what my opponent is doing on a shot, I ask before the shot. If he is shooting and simple one rail kick and forgot to call it, I ask before the shot.

Celtic
03-17-2010, 11:53 AM
I have that book, love it, and keep it in my case, too.

But I joined a BCA league this season (we started last week). The day before our first match, we received the rules that will replace some of the BCA rules. These included (and I paste some of the weirdest):

Legal Shots:
--Push shots are legal. (They are not legal in BCA Tournaments).
--A masse shot as long as the hand holding the butt of the stick is under the armpit.
--Moving a ball. If any stationary balls, that sit between player and cue ball, are accidentally moved by the player with any part of the body, clothing, jewelry, cue stick, mechanical bridge, chalk, etc. the opponent has the option of moving the ball back to its original position or leaving it where it sits. Player at table continues to shoot after determination of ball has been executed. (this isn't weird until you look at the list of fouls)
--Touching a stationary ball that sits between player and cue ball (again, this isn't weird until you look at the list of fouls)


Fouls:
--Jump shots---(At BCA Tournaments Jump shots are legal only when executed in front of a referee).
--If a safety shot is called and executed by player (Legal at BCA Tournaments)
--Touching or moving any balls in front of or to the sides of the cue ball [emphasis added]
--Teammates telling a player if he/she has stripes or solids even if player asks (Player should pay attention to his/her game)

HOWEVER:
--Scratch Shots: A scratch on the break is not a foul. When the player scratches the cue ball on the break, his opponent has ball in hand behind the head string. The base of the ball must be behind the head string. When a player is placing the cue ball behind the head string and uses his cue stick to do so, it is not a foul. If the cue stick hits the cue ball and it does not cross the head string, it is not considered a shot. If the cue ball does cross the head string it is considered a shot. When a player has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and his only balls are within the head string, player’s only option is a kick shot. When a player scratches he/she will announce that they have done so to the opponent. [emphasis added]

I made sure to loudly announce to absolutely everybody when I scratched (although I really did think they should be paying enough attention to their game to notice the cueball was missing from the table). And I couldn't get a clear definition of a push shot after three emailed attempts with YouTube videos.

I've been irritated ever since we got the new rules. I'm trying to just keep a sense of humor.

That is entirely absurd. Alot of those rule changes are idiotic to anyone with a sense of the game and why the standard BCA rules are the way they are.

This type of regionalization in rules within a structured league framework of the BCA should flat out not be allowed. If you run a BCA sanctioned league you should use the standard BCA rules such as are used in Vegas, where people playing that league might actually end up and then have no clue as to the proper rule set as it is SUPPOSED to be.

The BCAPL needs to clamp down and stop this type of regional variation, the lack of a specific and consistent rule set for the game is one of the key hurdles in this game becomming more accepted.

Bill S
03-17-2010, 01:02 PM
Say what??? It's a foul to call a safety???

I was going to make a seperate thread on it, but decided not to. This is, IMHO, one of the biggest things holding back pool. No matter what room you go to, what tournament, what league, even the same room everyday but different people, you have different rules. It's a joke and a travesty that only pool can not come up with a uniform set of rules to be followed everywhere. You bowl, it's the same rules across the country, same with every other sport. Why should anyone take pool serious when we can't even come up with uniform rules to the game?? You can't just going making up whatever rules you want to and expect anyone else to take you serious.

I sure would like to know who the league operator is. I would like to give them a call. If someone knows, give me a call or email me at bill@playcsipool.com.

Bill Stock
BCA Pool League
Director of Referees
Rules Administrator
702-719-7665

Celtic
03-18-2010, 10:45 AM
Bump for Bill S.

Good to let him know this stuff so he can fix things rather then just randomly whining about it on the forum.

MitchAlsup
03-18-2010, 12:26 PM
I believe the player can make a carom off of the opponents balls if it is the object ball that caroms not the cue ball. For example, a player shoots his 7 ball into his opponent's 15 ball making the 7 in the corner. I see nothing in the rules that prevent this type of carom.

BCA specifically states that a legal shot includes:
A: using legal equiptment (checked before the games begin)
B: using a legal stroke (tip first, no double hits)
C: hitting a legal ball first
D: potting the called ball in the called pocket.

A carom off an illegal ball is a foul
A carom off a legal ball is fine

BCA also specifies that the shooter must call any nonobvious shot, and that a safety is a nonobvious shot
BCA further specifies that the opponent (you) have the right to know what the call is, but that you cannot instrrupt the shot

Shooter did not call nonobvious shot: ruling:: end of inning, shooter did not make called ball in called pocket, and did not comit a foul (unless original statement of play was missing in details).

ronhudson
03-18-2010, 01:55 PM
Blah Blah originally posted the message with the strange local rules in BCA league play. He lists that he's from Sacramento.

stick8
03-18-2010, 02:11 PM
not playing to much 8ball,but am i missing somthing here??? he did not call shot? but it went anyway.no foul was commeted, so it is incoming players shoot. right???he just lost his turn. right???so the outher guy is still snookered.right???need a answer as i am going to have a 8ball with bca rules!!!!:confused: