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Ball Banger
03-13-2010, 06:40 AM
The FACTS, JUST the FACTS


How much of your Weekly dues money do you get back from APA?? You Do the Math.


Our BCA banquet is coming up and the current discussion is about the way we are currently paying out approx 80% of the weekly player's dues to various winning teams and awards. Approx 10% of the total money collected is for administrative costs including a paid Sec/Tres who does all the paper work. Approx 10% is spend on food etc for the awards banquet, leaving approx 75 to 80% PAY BACK to the players and Teams etc.


Comparing our pay back to other leagues such as bowling etc. We feel we are right in line with our pay back to league members.

elove
03-13-2010, 06:44 AM
Would like to see some BCA leagues in our area. But I dont know if the market would be able to handle it..Pretty sure The APA has it locked down around here..

Ball Banger
03-13-2010, 06:55 AM
Would like to see some BCA leagues in our area. But I dont know if the market would be able to handle it..Pretty sure The APA has it locked down around here..

elove

If you had a BCA league, people would have to play pool by real pool rules. BTW You wouldn't have to pay $ 50.00 to file a protest and might actually have a chance of winning that protest because they don't have to give your money back.

Sorry but Numbers don't lie.

cuesmith
03-13-2010, 07:46 AM
The FACTS, JUST the FACTS


How much of your Weekly dues money do you get back from APA?? You Do the Math.


Our BCA banquet is coming up and the current discussion is about the way we are currently paying out approx 80% of the weekly player's dues to various winning teams and awards. Approx 10% of the total money collected is for administrative costs including a paid Sec/Tres who does all the paper work. Approx 10% is spend on food etc for the awards banquet, leaving approx 75 to 80% PAY BACK to the players and Teams etc.


Comparing our pay back to other leagues such as bowling etc. We feel we are right in line with our pay back to league members.


With the APA you'll probably find that 80% goes into Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart's pockets. They don't give much back!

Maniac
03-13-2010, 07:58 AM
How much of your Weekly dues money do you get back from APA??

It can all depend on your specific league operator. It changes from area to area. The one in my area pockets a lot of cash that could be payed out to session champions, city tourney champions, etc. The only money I have ever heard of anyone getting in my APA area is at the end of the session $25 goes to the Division MVP's. No session champion (regular season nor playoffs) or city tournament (to see which teams go to Vegas) winners have ever gotten a penny as far as I know. Sad to say.

Maniac

Mark Griffin
03-13-2010, 09:52 AM
To elove and others.

If you want info on how to start a BCA Pool League, please contact our office. It is VERY EASY and costs nothing.

We have ovr 450 league operators and some are large and some are small.

But all of them got their league started for zero invetment. You can play establish your own criteria and in can be a traveling league or an in-house league.

It is better than the APA. Usually BCAPL pay out 75% or so on the local level (compared to the 20% or so of the APA).

If you want a 'national handicapped league' you should check out the USA Pool League It is required that 50% be paid out on the local level but it has no membership dues the first year and puts money into a 'pro pot' which will help support pool. Over 70% of our matches go hill-hill and sandbaggers do not survive very well.

All qualified members of both of these leagues are eligible to play in the National tournament in Las Vegas at the Riviera in May - the greatest pool show on earth.

Please feel free to contact us for no obligation information.

Thanks,

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS

alstl
03-13-2010, 10:18 AM
I had never played in either until now and I'm in one of each. One APA league and one BCA league. I just show up and shoot pool, I don't know about all the other stuff. The difference I see from a pool perspective is no pushout in APA, different scoring system, and I'm not sure what the handicap system is in BCA but it seems very restrictive in APA. The APA seems to prohibit too many good players from playing.

TheBook
03-13-2010, 10:23 AM
The FACTS, JUST the FACTS


How much of your Weekly dues money do you get back from APA?? You Do the Math.


Our BCA banquet is coming up and the current discussion is about the way we are currently paying out approx 80% of the weekly player's dues to various winning teams and awards. Approx 10% of the total money collected is for administrative costs including a paid Sec/Tres who does all the paper work. Approx 10% is spend on food etc for the awards banquet, leaving approx 75 to 80% PAY BACK to the players and Teams etc.


Comparing our pay back to other leagues such as bowling etc. We feel we are right in line with our pay back to league members.

What league are you referring to? Your topic is APA but your discussion is about BCA. What is your point?

APA LO
03-13-2010, 10:30 AM
It is better than the APA. Usually BCAPL pay out 75% or so on the local level (compared to the 20% or so of the APA).

If you want a 'national handicapped league' you should check out the USA Pool League It is required that 50% be paid out on the local level but it has no membership dues the first year and puts money into a 'pro pot' which will help support pool. Over 70% of our matches go hill-hill and sandbaggers do not survive very well.Thanks,

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS

Not only are you way off, Mark, but you are also way out of line. If you think my league only pays back 20%, you are extremely misinformed. Or are you spewing forth that garbage because you believe you have to make the competition look bad in order to make your own product look good?

You should be embarrassed.

accustatsfan
03-13-2010, 10:43 AM
My area stopped hosting APA because the money doesn't benefit anyone except teams that make it to nationals. In house handicap leagues are popular because all the money comes back one way or the other.

If owner A always gets regional (with all of the extra money) and other owners never do what's their incentive?

I don't play APA anymore, but one of the owners I know has the room, tables, etc and she could never get the LO to allow it because he didn't live there.

Andrew Manning
03-13-2010, 11:05 AM
The FACTS, JUST the FACTS


How much of your Weekly dues money do you get back from APA?? You Do the Math.


Our BCA banquet is coming up and the current discussion is about the way we are currently paying out approx 80% of the weekly player's dues to various winning teams and awards. Approx 10% of the total money collected is for administrative costs including a paid Sec/Tres who does all the paper work. Approx 10% is spend on food etc for the awards banquet, leaving approx 75 to 80% PAY BACK to the players and Teams etc.


Comparing our pay back to other leagues such as bowling etc. We feel we are right in line with our pay back to league members.

If you're playing league pool for the money, you're playing for the wrong reason. I could completely understand complaints about high fees, if the fees are too high for some, but complaints about low payouts? It isn't a tour, it's an amateur league. The reward should be the enjoyment you get out of it.

-Andrew

CreeDo
03-13-2010, 11:23 AM
League is a product you purchase just like your car or TV. You're buying a fun night out with friends to play competitive pool as a team. It is not a lottery ticket or a massive tournament.

If that's not worth 8 bucks a week or whatever they charge, then spend your money on something else. Don't bash leagues for offering the product. Lots of players think it's worth buying and they don't piss and moan about not getting cash out of it. That cash is just the gravy on top.

I also think it's tacky to bash apa specifically, even if it's to promote another pool league. APA does something good for pool and brings enjoyment to a lot of people. If someone gets rich in the process then that's fine with me... when you do something well (like provide a good league experience to a quarter million people) then you deserve to get paid for it. I'd like to see both BCA and APA membership grow next year. Along with VNEA, TAP, and anyone else who is willing to do the work to get people into pool.

Scott Lee
03-13-2010, 01:04 PM
CreeDo...This is a well-reasoned, rational and logical response to the OP and the APA-bashing posts. Well done! I can certainly understand people's anger at some APA rules (and especially at the national office management...which I tend to agree with), but act on it by not playing, instead of lashing out publicly on an internet forum! The APA is not for everyone, and never said it was, nor tried to be. It does a good job at what it is supposed to do...get more people at least casually interested in pool. Thank you for a thoughtful response to what is always a volatile issue on this forum. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

League is a product you purchase just like your car or TV. You're buying a fun night out with friends to play competitive pool as a team. It is not a lottery ticket or a massive tournament.

If that's not worth 8 bucks a week or whatever they charge, then spend your money on something else. Don't bash leagues for offering the product. Lots of players think it's worth buying and they don't piss and moan about not getting cash out of it. That cash is just the gravy on top.

I also think it's tacky to bash apa specifically, even if it's to promote another pool league. APA does something good for pool and brings enjoyment to a lot of people. If someone gets rich in the process then that's fine with me... when you do something well (like provide a good league experience to a quarter million people) then you deserve to get paid for it. I'd like to see both BCA and APA membership grow next year. Along with VNEA, TAP, and anyone else who is willing to do the work to get people into pool.

Scott Lee
03-13-2010, 01:06 PM
Andrew...Tap, tap, tap!:thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If you're playing league pool for the money, you're playing for the wrong reason. I could completely understand complaints about high fees, if the fees are too high for some, but complaints about low payouts? It isn't a tour, it's an amateur league. The reward should be the enjoyment you get out of it.

-Andrew

Ball Banger
03-13-2010, 01:16 PM
Not only are you way off, Mark, but you are also way out of line. If you think my league only pays back 20%, you are extremely misinformed. Or are you spewing forth that garbage because you believe you have to make the competition look bad in order to make your own product look good?

You should be embarrassed.

No APA LO

You should be embarrassed for only returning 20% or $ 1.60 of the $ 8.00 weekly fee you charge. Numbers don't lie, APA should go down history as the BEST POOL HUSTLE ever.

Thunderball
03-13-2010, 01:25 PM
Ya know...I think I'll throw some popcorn in the old nuke oven and make my self comfortable..

cuesmith
03-13-2010, 01:27 PM
Not only are you way off, Mark, but you are also way out of line. If you think my league only pays back 20%, you are extremely misinformed. Or are you spewing forth that garbage because you believe you have to make the competition look bad in order to make your own product look good?

You should be embarrassed.

My biggest complaint against the APA is the "23 rule"! The reason for my discust of this rule is that it's nothing but a Ponzi Scheme. It's devised to split teams so they'll be forced to form 2 new teams. This is to benefit the APA management, not the players! People who go along with this BS are forced to sandbag in order to be able to continue playing together. This makes the whole system a travesty IMHO! I'll continue to voice my opinion about these unscrupulous people who are in actuality driving a spike in the heart of our sport! You want to know why pool isn't going anywhere? It's organizations like the APA who rape the sport for their own gain who are driving it into the ground!

And the power play they pulled to keep Mark Griffin off the WPBA Board is just another example! I don't begrudge them making money. I just don't like their methods!

jdxprs
03-13-2010, 02:04 PM
how exactly do you factor in the money that is paid out at the national level for leagues like apa and tap?

justadub
03-13-2010, 02:15 PM
Uhhh.... a "ponzi scheme"?

From the US Securities and Exchange Commission:

"What is a Ponzi scheme?
A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors. Ponzi scheme organizers often solicit new investors by promising to invest funds in opportunities claimed to generate high returns with little or no risk. In many Ponzi schemes, the fraudsters focus on attracting new money to make promised payments to earlier-stage investors and to use for personal expenses, instead of engaging in any legitimate investment activity."

I realize it's cool to reference ponzi schemes after the Madoff scandal, but it doesn't apply to APA.

#1: There is no promise of return on investment. The only promise is a fun night out playing pool. Nothing more.
#2: Since we see in #1 above there is no return on investment promised in exchange for the funds spent, the attracting of new customers to APA doesn't fund any previously made promise, as there is none.

Yes, the 23 rule encourages teams to split up and to bring in more new players, so that the teams can fit under the handicap. This isn't hidden, it isn't secret, and it isn't evil. It is a business plan, and it works for them quite nicely. Don't like their business, and it's practices? Don't patronize them.

Chill out people. I don't agree with everything APA does, but stop comparing it to Bernie Madoff, and stop thinking you are being ripped off. If you don't enjoy playing, don't play. Don't expect to make money playing APA. They don't promise that to you. You shouldn't expect that from them. Yes, there are big prizes to be won each year at Nationals. But surely you are intelligent enough to calculate how long the odds are to cash in, out of 260,000 members, is a very small percentage. It is not "owed" to you.

Talking about "giving back"... how do you suppose the manufacturers of pool playing equipment feel about the APA? And the fact that they attract more players each year to the sport, by utilizing the insidious 23 rule? Think that there are more people buying cues, cases, gloves, chalk, and even tables? Yup. I'd say that is "giving back" to the pool industry. And that is good for everyone playing pool, as the suppliers are going to be stronger, and have more offerings for all of us.

Try and have some fun.

NoBull9
03-13-2010, 02:39 PM
I have shot on an APA team for 15 years plus.I shoot BCA aswell.I've never been to vegas with either league.Its not about the money its just fun and its supports my local pool room.Now both leagues offer one thing in common they bring players to the pool rooms that purchase the products that support pro pool.To say one legue is better then the other nothing more then opinion.I can tell you this if it weren't for the Apa chapter in and around Atlanta most te pool rooms would be gone.The bca room host just sold out here.The apa host Q's 2 is the largest supporter of pro and ameture pool in Atl.

Ball Banger
03-13-2010, 04:29 PM
I have shot on an APA team for 15 years plus.I shoot BCA aswell.I've never been to vegas with either league.Its not about the money its just fun and its supports my local pool room.Now both leagues offer one thing in common they bring players to the pool rooms that purchase the products that support pro pool.To say one legue is better then the other nothing more then opinion.I can tell you this if it weren't for the Apa chapter in and around Atlanta most te pool rooms would be gone.The bca room host just sold out here.The apa host Q's 2 is the largest supporter of pro and ameture pool in Atl.

NoBull

No way you can make money playing Leagues or is that my intention. But It is nice to know your hard earned money is staying in town to support local venues. Our Last place team even gets money back at the awards banquet.

Another Bone I have to pick with APA is the secret handicap system. At least in BCA everything is out in the open and anyone can do the math.

SCCues
03-13-2010, 05:06 PM
With the APA you'll probably find that 80% goes into Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart's pockets. They don't give much back!

They hit the pool jack pot with the APA.

James

crawfish
03-13-2010, 08:49 PM
It's a business. You are supposed to have fun and drink beer and somewhat compete with the "Vegas Trip" looming over your head. (By the way, you can go to a large tournament at least twice for what you pay to play league.) The bar/poolroom makes cash from beer, food, etc. The league makes the owner money, period. Why else? Why are areas "for sale." Profits, my dear people, profits.

Zims Rack
03-13-2010, 10:22 PM
I love these threads... bump to top!

Worst_7_ever
03-14-2010, 12:06 AM
[............................

smoooothstroke
03-14-2010, 01:04 AM
Not only are you way off, Mark, but you are also way out of line. If you think my league only pays back 20%, you are extremely misinformed. Or are you spewing forth that garbage because you believe you have to make the competition look bad in order to make your own product look good?

You should be embarrassed.

Is there a way to find out what APA LOs make and put back into prizes?

Most people I talk to think it is a very low %.I would guess and this is just a guess,around 50%?

I think maybe the 20% is in reference to local payouts excluding the Vegas trip.

Grilled Cheese
03-14-2010, 03:47 AM
This thread is called do the math, so I'll do some math...


APA, not counting the $25 yearly membership fee..

Nightly league fee: $7

Teams: 16 - a full division.

That's 8 match ups a week, 5 players per team can play per week, 10 total @ $7 = $560 a week. $560 a week by say, a 14 week session (some are shorter, some longer) = $7,840.

In a full length session like fall or spring (summer is shorter) in a full division, the 1st place teams wins anywhere from $950 - $1,200 depending. Second in the $700 ball park. Third in the $450 - $500 range or around $55 a player if split 8 ways on a full roster. First place is just over $100 per team member. That's typical of the APA.

Works out to around 30% pay out at best. Could be lower but not higher.

If this same division, with the same fees, same length of season and so forth had a 70% pay out, first place would win around $2,500. Split 8 ways at worst with a full roster, that's just over $300 per person. More if the team is smaller in roster.

That's in one session/season. That's one season, one division. Forget other divisions, league nights, pool halls etc. It adds up.

Predictably, the sycophants of the APA and their LO's will come out and say "well, it's not about the money" ...well of course not. No one is in it to make money. It's a night out right? Great! Then why don't YOU pay out more? Guess what? The in-house league, or BCA or whatever pays out more and they're also not about the money, and their players are also NOT in it to make money - they're also about a friendly night out too. Why not have a friendly night out of fun, AND for the hell of it, get paid out 3x more than the APA?



That is why you can expect to pay well over $60,000 to buy an APA franchise. The APA is the best if you are a league operator or work for the APA. Of course they will come out and defend it with great fervor - it's their bread.

No offense to other leagues, but I wouldn't want to put in all the time and work running one, dealing with everyone's crap etcetera etcetera for a small percentage. I'd want to make as much as possible. I would be in it to make money, not to provide a pool league to a bunch of people to kick money back and forth between themselves. And if it was a low maintenance league that required little from me, I'd still want to milk it for whatever I could get. I don't offer my time and energy for the entertainment consumption of others. It's business 100%. The corrupt handicapping, the selective enforcement of rules so forth and so on. Why do you think that is? Do you really expect a LO to kick a team out or punish them for cheating or other types of violations? When that team literally puts money in his/her pocket every week? Get real.

On the other hand, for the player the APA is just about as bad as it gets. the utmost lowest payouts, the worst most nonsensical rules, and the most painful and dreadful format. There are rules in the APA that have no logical basis whatsoever. Some are so bizarre they offend one's intelligence. People wait around till 11pm or later, even as late as 1am to play their match.

Most of the members fall for the Vegas trick. It's the ultimate lure. Let's see....

Slug it out 16 weeks battling sandbaggers to try and make top 3 (or get lucky and get a wildcard), then win in playoffs against the better sandbaggers to qualify for regional. Most never make it. Then, the ones that do have to battle it out in a single elimination tournament with 32 other teams, most of whom are the most elite and sophisticated of sandbaggers where 2 qualify for that Vegas trip. Some get lucky and don't have to "invest" much to make it. By my estimation, the average APA player that DOES make it to Vegas, has spent anywhere from $3,000 - $5,000 to get there. Some more. Again, some are lucky or build all-star teams of sandbaggers to get there quick - but these built-to-go-to-Vegas teams are, in my observation, about 20% successful. One in 5 makes it. They usually fail in regionals (due to getting wiped out by some sandbagger team) and then break up.


Speaking of sandbagging. Not only is the format painful and the odds for making it to Vegas highly unfavorable, but the handicap system is perhaps the worst. It's the sandbagger's dream system. Forget the fact that their lousy secret system is exposed across the internet and is hardly a secret - the vast majority of players figure out on their own that they need to pad innings. They might not know about the applied scoring, but it doesn't matter. Padding innings still works. The "applied" system does not work at all.

If the APA handicap system worked, there wouldn't need to be a 23 rule. I know they say that's in place to break teams apart. That's absolutely true. Still, the typical 7 usually runs a 90% or higher win percentage against other handicaps. There are many instances of players putting up say, a 13-1 record on the season and not being raised. There are many more instances of players losing all season long and not being dropped a skill level. We're talking people who lose legitimately, since losing all season has no sandbagging benefit as it has knocked the team out of a playoff spot.

Individually it doesn't work. At the team level it also doesn't work.

In the APA it is not uncommon at all, in fact it's fairly typical for the first place team to have an overall team win percentage in excess of 60%. I've seen as high as 67%. Whereas, teams at the bottom can be as low as 35%.

That's not handicapping.


The APA is also like the 800lb gorilla of bad pool. Aside from standardizing bad rules among the amateur masses and reinforcing bad play and bad sportsmanship - LO's can be thugs. The APA isn't content providing a product and being happy with those that want to buy into their product. No, they attack the competition.

That is why I find it extremely hypocritical by many LO's when they whine about others attacking the APA. Why don't they talk about what many APA LO's do? APA LO's have been guilty of threatening pool room owners. Yes, I have seen it with my own eyes.

What happens is this, the pool room has 2 or 3 APA league nights. This generates a lot of business for the room owner. So much so, it becomes a critical part of their business. Keep in mind the room owner gets not a single penny from the league. The sole benefit is that it generates traffic in the room. Someone gets the idea to start an in-house league or a BCA league on a free night. The room owner is cool with the idea and ok's it for the one last open weekday night. The reason being for all of this is for something different. Not that there exists more demand for APA league play. Not at all. But there is demand for a different product, like BCA or an in-house. There's at least a few dozen people who want something different. The APA LO gets wind of this and goes around promoting another APA league night at the same place. Or offering a master's division or whatever.

Of course, the APA LO knows that as soon as a competitor league forms, his leagues will shrink. They won't be doomed, there's always a large segment who clings to the dream of getting a paid trip to Las Vegas. The other league players will see the in-house league pays out 3x more and they'll want in.

In order to destroy the competition, the LO either directly, or in a veiled manner threatens to move his divisions to another room. I've seen this happen. The LO was willing to take a drop of 70% in his membership in those particular divisions to stick it to the room owner. That's because many teams didn't want to travel to the new room. They were only interested in staying where they were at. As a result, the room owner was holding some cards and the LO came back and they came to terms. Terms which were no other leagues at the room. You might wonder, why would the LO take a hit for a session or two? Well, because he can afford these thug-like tactics. He has other divisions at other rooms. He was also an absentee LO that did it as a side thing and had other sources of income. Neglects most of the duties of being an LO. The room owner couldn't handle 3 nights a week emptying out, and the room is his only money making gig.

There's a reason there's almost NO BCA in this APA LO's territory. I suspect this is the case in other places. I'm sure some APA LO's are honest guys that play fair and promote their own league rather than try to sabotage others. No offense to those guys.


It's funny how APA LO's are sensitive to criticism, but as soon as another league, whether a national organization or in-house comes into the scene, they become vicious attack dogs. Going around, telling players how bad the other league is, spreading false rumors about the league, spreading lies and negativity about it and how it functions.



Anyhow, that's pretty much everything all in one long post. This is what I have observed over the years watching an APA league operating in the pool room I frequent.

CreeDo
03-14-2010, 08:09 AM
Two things bola:

Our local room had an existing league and apa came along, wanting to play on a different night than the existing league. When the other league found out about APA, they're the ones who used the tactics you described... they pulled out of that room, demanding exclusivity. The LO and room owner were old friends so it was pretty depressing to see.

They have since mended fences but the APA left. I'm not some APA suckup; I do think it's pretty lame that the APA LO gave up on our room after just one season. I had a good time playing in it and when the time came around to try it next year... he was done and gone. Not profitable enough I guess.

--

Your figures do not mention the APA LO's overhead. It's a lot of time and travelling. He isn't relaxing at home and occasionally updating an excel spreadsheet. And he spends money on all the little stuff that adds up (cards patches trophies gas money etc). From what I've read, about a buck per week per player is the vegas fund.

Your math comes up with 7840, with 5500 lining the guy's pockets. Even if you ignore that overhead, how many sessions can he cram into a year? Or looking at it another way, how many sessions per division must he handle in order to make, say, 40 or 50k per year? Try handling the handicapping and money and paperwork and feedback for 16 teams with 5 guys per team x however many divisions, see what you think of it.

A lot of jobs look too easy for the money they seem to be making, but there's always a reason for it. OMG the guy running the local domino's franchise makes a quarter mil a year? WTF they pay an MLB umpire 6 figures? That kid gets 40 bucks an hour to fix my computer and he didn't have to go to school to learn it?! ...you gotta try a job or at least know the ins and outs of it before you're qualified to knock it.

Zims Rack
03-14-2010, 10:39 AM
Math is simple...
$7 per player x 10 players per match = $70 per match
Pay back is $3 per point at a max of 5 pts per match (pay back for local level) = max of $15 payback per match.
$70 - $15 = $55 per match goes to LO/Nationals/APA Home Office!
$70 x .2144 (less than 21.5%) = $15.008

How is the other $55 per match split up? What's the LOs, the Nationals, the Home Office %?
$25 yearly membership x 500,000 players (claimed by APA in an article I read months ago) = $12,500,000.00... where's it go, how's it dispersed?

My perspectives...
As a player- I'm sickened with the rules, hcp system, match format, need to sand bag and of course the money distribution.

As a business- pat the APA on the back! They've nailed the marketing on the head, created a system disigned to grow rapidly and is very, very profitable.

As a LO- I feel that the players true interest and the growth as a game is hindered or not really the focus point in the APA system.

Just my .02
Zim

markpatrick
03-14-2010, 11:19 AM
Math is simple...
$7 per player x 10 players per match = $70 per match
Pay back is $3 per point at a max of 5 pts per match (pay back for local level) = max of $15 payback per match.
$70 - $15 = $55 per match goes to LO/Nationals/APA Home Office!
$70 x .2144 (less than 21.5%) = $15.008

How is the other $55 per match split up? What's the LOs, the Nationals, the Home Office %?
$25 yearly membership x 500,000 players (claimed by APA in an article I read months ago) = $12,500,000.00... where's it go, how's it dispersed?

My perspectives...
As a player- I'm sickened with the rules, hcp system, match format, need to sand bag and of course the money distribution.

As a business- pat the APA on the back! They've nailed the marketing on the head, created a system disigned to grow rapidly and is very, very profitable.

As a LO- I feel that the players true interest and the growth as a game is hindered or not really the focus point in the APA system.

Just my .02
Zim

2 scenarios
Played in APA one session, 25 yearly fee 7 bucks a week for 14 weeks plus 7 bucks a week for 2 weeks in the playoffs which we won.
Payback, not a dime.
In order to qualify for Vegas we would have to play in a regional event, but only if we played 2 more sessions.
No one in our league got a dime back.
The bar started their own in house league, had a banquet and paid all teams something.

Next session was Rusty Brandemeyer? spelling? Missouri 8 ball league. 10 bucks session fees and 5 bucks a week to play. OUr team also won the playoffs. Got back $50 cash per player.
Qualified for the team tournament which was played in St Charles and the winner of the 5 man team got 6000 to split and the winner of the 4 man team got 6000 to split, then they played for a 1000 bonus.

THIS HAPPENS 3 TIMES A YEAR.

No pie in the sky you may get to go to Vegas? Yeah if you play for a year. Get real lucky.

I think Missouri 8 ball is the best league going. Hell even the last place team gets some beer money.

I have thought about playing again in the APA and I have thought about driving down the road throwing $5 bills out of my Challenger window.

Kudos to Rusty and his trusty side kick Jay Carlton.

cuesmith
03-14-2010, 11:53 AM
2 scenarios
Played in APA one session, 25 yearly fee 7 bucks a week for 14 weeks plus 7 bucks a week for 2 weeks in the playoffs which we won.
Payback, not a dime.
In order to qualify for Vegas we would have to play in a regional event, but only if we played 2 more sessions.
No one in our league got a dime back.
The bar started their own in house league, had a banquet and paid all teams something.

Next session was Rusty Brandemeyer? spelling? Missouri 8 ball league. 10 bucks session fees and 5 bucks a week to play. OUr team also won the playoffs. Got back $50 cash per player.
Qualified for the team tournament which was played in St Charles and the winner of the 5 man team got 6000 to split and the winner of the 4 man team got 6000 to split, then they played for a 1000 bonus.

THIS HAPPENS 3 TIMES A YEAR.

No pie in the sky you may get to go to Vegas? Yeah if you play for a year. Get real lucky.

I think Missouri 8 ball is the best league going. Hell even the last place team gets some beer money.

I have thought about playing again in the APA and I have thought about driving down the road throwing $5 bills out of my Challenger window.

Kudos to Rusty and his trusty side kick Jay Carlton.

Obviously this sounds like a much better option, but I have one question. Does this league incorporate something like the "23 rule"? This rule in itself sounds innoculous but it's the instrument used to force the teams to sandbag or break the team up, split and form new teams. This is the "business plan" the APA uses to rob you.

I've been a league operator for a competetor (Heart of Ohio Pool League) which was much better and fairer than the APA also so I do understand the concept!

OK, maybe I was too liberal with the word "Ponzi" scheme, but it's still a pyramid racket as designed by it's "business plan"! It's discraceful and should not be tollerated. It makes people play "numbers games" instead of playing pool.

I've been on both sides of the APA. I started playing in 1982 when it was called the Busch Pool League. I've had teams disqualified because we played pool, not the numbers games and tried our best to win. I've even gone the other side and put together a team of "one pocket" players to play in the APA 8 ball league. Yeah we got kicked out too. They didn't like it when they found out my star "SL2" , Eugene Metz was also known as "CLEM"! LOL

I played in the mud and didn't like the company! Met a lot of nice people who were all frustrated by the APA system! I've been asked dozens of times to play on someones team or form a team again but I've swore to never give another dime of my money to the APA. Even had teams offer to pay my way when I explained this but I can only explain the the APA still gets the money and thats what I'm protesting. I urge others to let the APA know that you're fed up with the BS! Make them drop the "23 rule" and give something back to the sport or you'll find someone who will!

Banks
03-14-2010, 12:01 PM
You couldn't pay me enough to be an LO and deal with all of the freakin' whiners and crybabies there are out there.

In all of your numbers, did you bother to factor in the costs of the business? You know, spending hours entering scoring information into a computer, composing and printing weekly information, phone and fax lines.. and then there are the hours and hours dedicated to dealing with pool players, which I have come to believe may be the biggest bunch of whiners in any group out there. They whine about the leagues they willingly join, they whine about the tables, they whine about the rules.. they'll whine about everything.

As far as I'm concerned.. for $7 a week, I get a lot back. Somebody takes their time to organize matches for me at places I normally wouldn't experience against players I normally wouldn't get to play. I usually get quite a bit of free table time, which coupled with the match time probably is equivilent to the $7 I pay. Our LO in the Portland area puts on a few different things a year that pay out to players, too, including a big summer campout. And as inexpensive as the trophies are and all that, they still cost money.

Next time you start spouting off numbers, please add in all of the other things so that you don't just come off as a biased whiner.

CocoboloCowboy
03-14-2010, 12:07 PM
The FACTS, JUST the FACTS


How much of your Weekly dues money do you get back from APA?? You Do the Math.


Our BCA banquet is coming up and the current discussion is about the way we are currently paying out approx 80% of the weekly player's dues to various winning teams and awards. Approx 10% of the total money collected is for administrative costs including a paid Sec/Tres who does all the paper work. Approx 10% is spend on food etc for the awards banquet, leaving approx 75 to 80% PAY BACK to the players and Teams etc.


Comparing our pay back to other leagues such as bowling etc. We feel we are right in line with our pay back to league members.

IMHO the League Op, need some GREEN in their pocket for doing all the work.

If you know the number coming off the top up front for expenses. That is all you need to know to decide to be part of, or find another league.

justadub
03-14-2010, 12:42 PM
I do have a question regarding the Missouri (and I suppose also the Ohio) league... Do the guys that run those leagues do that as their primary employment? Meaning is this their "job", the way by which they pay all of their personal bills and living expenses? If so, and they can still pay out all of this money from the limited amount being fed into the system, then they should certainly be congratulated, and of course encouraged to expand this great and wonderous system to the rest of us.

My guess is this is being run by some very avid pool enthusiasts who are doing this as a side operation, for the benefit of all who play. And that is very cool. But as cool as all that is, it's not a fair comparison to a system that is the primary form of income for an APA LO.

Again, I'm not knocking what you folks have, as it does sound pretty good. If it were available here I'd probably want to play in that program too. But you need to compare apples to apples when declaring how awful the one national program that can be particpated in virtually everywhere in the US versus a regional program. (Before you start spouting BCA or the others, realize that when I say nationwide, I mean nationwide. There isn't another league of its type anywhere in Maine, certainly not within a multiple hour drive. But there are APA leagues that cover 2/3rds of this very rural state, and supposedly will be expanding to cover the rest of the state soon. Aroostook County, Maine, a VERY remote part of this country. It ain't Canada, but you can see it from there!)

Maybe this is the Missouri League operators form of income, but if it was, why haven't they franchised this puppy out nationwide? Probably because this is being run by poolplayers for poolplayers, i.e. a hobby, versus a business for someone to make a living from. I congratulate them on "giving back". So tell me, what do you "give back" in your job?

insanepoolgod
03-14-2010, 12:44 PM
Excellent analysis. I agree that you shouldn't play in leagues for a return on your investment. But, everyone should analyze which league is an overall better product.

Speaking of numbers, has anyone compared the number of members of the various national leagues over the past 20 or so years? It would be interesting to see if there has been a shift in membership from one league to another.

markpatrick
03-14-2010, 01:06 PM
Obviously this sounds like a much better option, but I have one question. Does this league incorporate something like the "23 rule"? This rule in itself sounds innoculous but it's the instrument used to force the teams to sandbag or break the team up, split and form new teams. This is the "business plan" the APA uses to rob you.

I've been a league operator for a competetor (Heart of Ohio Pool League) which was much better and fairer than the APA also so I do understand the concept!

OK, maybe I was too liberal with the word "Ponzi" scheme, but it's still a pyramid racket as designed by it's "business plan"! It's discraceful and should not be tollerated. It makes people play "numbers games" instead of playing pool.

I've been on both sides of the APA. I started playing in 1982 when it was called the Busch Pool League. I've had teams disqualified because we played pool, not the numbers games and tried our best to win. I've even gone the other side and put together a team of "one pocket" players to play in the APA 8 ball league. Yeah we got kicked out too. They didn't like it when they found out my star "SL2" , Eugene Metz was also known as "CLEM"! LOL

I played in the mud and didn't like the company! Met a lot of nice people who were all frustrated by the APA system! I've been asked dozens of times to play on someones team or form a team again but I've swore to never give another dime of my money to the APA. Even had teams offer to pay my way when I explained this but I can only explain the the APA still gets the money and thats what I'm protesting. I urge others to let the APA know that you're fed up with the BS! Make them drop the "23 rule" and give something back to the sport or you'll find someone who will!

Players are handicapped from 2 to 8. Ratings are established based on player ability. You can play 5 eight level players against 5 seven level players. That would be 40 points vs 35 points. The point spread determines the spot 5 point variance usually gets 3 games going to 11.
Pills are drawn each round with a round consisting of 5 games.

For the complete rules you can check out Missouri 8 ball .com.

And yes there are alot of whiners and such in this and every league. But it all comes out in the wash.

PLUS you actually get some money in your pocket without a pie in the sky trip to Vegas.

cuesmith
03-14-2010, 02:17 PM
IMHO the League Op, need some GREEN in their pocket for doing all the work.

If you know the number coming off the top up front for expenses. That is all you need to know to decide to be part of, or find another league.

Frankly, the money is not important! Like I said, I've been a league operator. I wouldn't wish that on my worse enemies. The late night calls from drunken league players who can't read a rule book or wanted me to make a call on a situation I did not witness, was enough for me. My complaint is the harm it's doing to pool. How can a system that penalizes you for improving be right? I don't mind giving up a fair handicap when both player are trying to win, but to force teams to split up because team members improve, is pure BS!

elove
03-14-2010, 02:46 PM
I play 2 nights a week 1 8 and 1 9 ball..I don't play for a return on my money..I play to get out of the house and see people that for the biggest part I like...I have one person on my team that said he was quitting because not everybody was serious enough and he wanted to go to vegas. I told him if he really wanted to go to Vegas, quit playin for one year and save his money and go...but back to the original point the APA is on of the biggest pyramid schemes out there it is designed for a good team to get to where they have to split and recruit their own players. I go out every night understanding this and I am OK with it...so to get to the point Whether or not you like the APA or not. You have a choice to play or not, I choose to play not for the chance of going to Vegas but to spend sometime outside of my house and forget of the day to day problems...for me well worth the 6 dollars I spend...JMO

ridewiththewind
03-14-2010, 02:46 PM
Frankly, the money is not important! Like I said, I've been a league operator. I wouldn't wish that on my worse enemies. The late night calls from drunken league players who can't read a rule book or wanted me to make a call on a situation I did not witness, was enough for me. My complaint is the harm it's doing to pool. How can a system that penalizes you for improving be right? I don't mind giving up a fair handicap when both player are trying to win, but to force teams to split up because team members improve, is pure BS!

I couldn't agree with you more!! Someone recently attempted to start an APA league here locally. Not only did the bar starting the league fail, but I would say it's safe to assume that the league failed as well.

I was asked to join, and I respectfully declined. When I was asked why, I explained that I wasn't going to 'throw' a game for the sake of remaining on a team or the league. When I was told that wasn't true, I explained it to the guy that I wasn't going to play for a league that would penalize me for improving my level of play. BTW, I declined an invitation to play in a TAP league as well.

The only national league system I will play on is the BCAPL...no monkey business, no handicaps (save for local play-offs), and just a nice, enjoyable evening of no-nonsense competitive play.

Lisa

pep88
03-14-2010, 07:50 PM
lot of APA bashing. The players is what make a league good or bad

Scott Lee
03-14-2010, 08:00 PM
deleted...double post

Scott Lee
03-14-2010, 08:02 PM
Zim...Your numbers are off by 50%. Reread that article, and post it here. I was a former APA LO, in the early 90's, and corporate "claimed" they would reach 1 million by 2000 (it was over 125K back then. They have never even come close. The latest numbers have been flat for at least the last 2-3 years, if not longer, at 250K (and that includes Canada and Japan). Do you think running two national championships costs nothing? Do they cost millions? No...but they do run nice tournaments in Vegas. Do you think national tv advertising is free? No. Does it cost millions? No, but they do a LOT of advertising. All these "bash the APA" threads make me sick. You can not like something, and choose not to participate, but to badmouth what you know nothing about is BS. The majority of APA players LIKE the league, or they wouldn't play. Are there bad APA LO's? Sure...just like there are bad BCA LO's, TAP LO's, VNEA LO's, etc. Don't call them all crooks because of the actions of a few. Don't forget, there's also the slimeball actions of the guy who "certified" you as an instructor. I notice that you no longer put your affiliation with him in your sig lines...smart move.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


$25 yearly membership x 500,000 players (claimed by APA in an article I read months ago) = $12,500,000.00... where's it go, how's it dispersed?

Zim

Zims Rack
03-15-2010, 05:30 AM
Zim...Your numbers are off by 50%. Reread that article, and post it here. I was a former APA LO, in the early 90's, and corporate "claimed" they would reach 1 million by 2000 (it was over 125K back then. They have never even come close. The latest numbers have been flat for at least the last 2-3 years, if not longer, at 250K (and that includes Canada and Japan). Do you think running two national championships costs nothing? Do they cost millions? No...but they do run nice tournaments in Vegas. Do you think national tv advertising is free? No. Does it cost millions? No, but they do a LOT of advertising. All these "bash the APA" threads make me sick. You can not like something, and choose not to participate, but to badmouth what you know nothing about is BS. The majority of APA players LIKE the league, or they wouldn't play. Are there bad APA LO's? Sure...just like there are bad BCA LO's, TAP LO's, VNEA LO's, etc. Don't call them all crooks because of the actions of a few. Don't forget, there's also the slimeball actions of the guy who "certified" you as an instructor. I notice that you no longer put your affiliation with him in your sig lines...smart move.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott- if I misread the membership numbers, my mistake, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading "over 500,000 members is US, Canada and now Japan". Either way, all you said is correct... but I (and I'm apparently not the only one) feel that the local level should have a payout in ANY league. If you make the NATIONAL events the focus point, then your system will be cheated to get to that level. Make the LOCAL level more rewarding and the National level a little something extra, then the league will be more competitive and fair.

As far as my association with the BSACA and Tim White, yes I took a week long course, learned a lot and in great detail, became an instructor under the BSACA... it's apparently not successfull and he's pretty much alienated himself due to certain actions (no need for detail) and I've pretty much gone on my own as well. Tim is a very talented and knowledgeable instructor and for those reasons I don't bash him like other "Professional Instructors" on the forums. Do I agree with his actions on the videos or with the Shuffett's, NO! But does that mean that I need to bash him, NO!

Personally, from one professional to another... I have never bashed an individual in the public eye... in our business, we can't burn ANY bridges!

Thanks Scott,
Zim

Maniac
03-15-2010, 08:32 AM
All these "bash the APA" threads make me sick. You can not like something, and choose not to participate, but to badmouth what you know nothing about is BS. The majority of APA players LIKE the league, or they wouldn't play. Are there bad APA LO's? Sure...just like there are bad BCA LO's, TAP LO's, VNEA LO's, etc. Don't call them all crooks because of the actions of a few.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


Scott,

With all due respect to each and everyones opinion, I submit this post and proclaim it to NOT be bashing the APA. Just relating my feelings and experiences.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is a public forum. All opinions, whether they agree with mine (yours) or not are valued. Information CANNOT be recieved on this forum without ALL the opinions being given. That being said, there are a LOT of opinions on this forum AGAINST the APA. Obviously there are a lot of people that have been involved in the APA that have had bad experiences and choose to relate them to us here. If we listen to what we read, we may realize that the APA does indeed have a lot of shortcomings. Do the other leagues? I'm sure they do, but mysteriously they do not get the ink that the APA does. Why is that? Possibly, it is because there are way fewer instances of bad experiences in the other leagues. Possibly, it is because the APA has a larger membership, therefore more odds of possible problems. It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that there is obviously a lot of people on this forum unhappy enough with the APA to want to come on here and "sound off" about their experiences. Why should this make you sick? If you came on here with a problem (such as Zim's Rack's instructor) and I didn't agree with it, it wouldn't make me "sick". You have the right to your opinion AND the right to post it on here (and you did). The APA "bashers" have this very same right. Let's not forget that.

Now, I have played (since 2006) in APA 8-ball and 9-ball leagues without missing a session. This session I am not playing in either one. Do I hate the APA? No. In fact, I believe the APA has a solid structure and a good base on which to have a decent "fun" league. If you have an honest LO (which I did not) and players that abide by the rules and show integrity (which many in my divisions did not), you can have a very enjoyable and successful league. It just didn't happen for me, and apparently not for MANY others judging on the number of threads/posts written on this forum. I will play APA again. I don't hate it. If I play in South Arlington APA, it's going to have to be Masters Division though. No more APA handicapping for me, thank you! At least not in the area where I have to play. What is happening in the regular division leagues here would pi$$-off a lot of people. I'm not going to get into it now, but I have touched on it in other threads.

Scott, let's try to remember that there are people like myself on this forum that VALUE each and every opinion/related experience, whether it is on the same page with mine (or yours) or not. I want nothing less than what people have experienced, or how they really feel about a given subject. My suggestion to you is to never again open an APA thread if it is going to "make you sick".

Maniac

TimKrazyMon
03-15-2010, 09:13 AM
Not only are you way off, Mark, but you are also way out of line. If you think my league only pays back 20%, you are extremely misinformed. Or are you spewing forth that garbage because you believe you have to make the competition look bad in order to make your own product look good?

You should be embarrassed.

Hey there champ, got news for ya. From my point of view that 20% is closer to accurate than you think. My LO sends 5 teams to Vegas (3 8-ball, 2 9 ball) with a travel fund of $8000 apiece. So that would add up to $40k, factor in cost of patches, trophies, and other various awards & I'd say that the payback to players adds up to 15%-20%, given what we "donate" in league fees.

APA LO
03-15-2010, 10:10 AM
It's funny how APA LO's are sensitive to criticism, but as soon as another league, whether a national organization or in-house comes into the scene, they become vicious attack dogs. Going around, telling players how bad the other league is, spreading false rumors about the league, spreading lies and negativity about it and how it functions.

Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.

Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues.

Mark Griffin
03-15-2010, 12:14 PM
First of all, I sure would like to know who I am talking to - you can contact me by PM if you prefer it that way.

Secondly, as many of the other posts have stated, the 20% is not that far off. I absolutely agree there are good and bad League Operators - but to state that I am spreading misinformation about the APA is not accurate.

The APA is a great business model - but it does very little to promote pool. There rules are 'make believe' and their system really promotes sandbagging (just ask the APA players). I do get along with several APA League Operators but the APA home office has policies that do nothing but alienate me.

But this thread is about how much money is returned to the APA players. I will stand pretty close to the 20% I stated earlier. You may pay out way more - but your brethren just don't.

Is that bashing? I don't think so - it is what it is.

Bashing is the APA BLACKMAILING the WPBA members to not cast their vote for me to be on their board. They say it would be a conflict. Strange that the APA never felt they were in conflict the 10 years that Renee' was on the BCA board. A little double standard?????

The APA has drawn the line in the sand - not me. I will try to work with anyone if that will advance pool. The APA can NOT say that. And that is one reason why I don't think they are good for pool.

If you want to debate this, please pick up the phone and call me (702-835-2000 is my cell). But if you don't tell me your name, I will not talk to you.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS



APA LO said "Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.

Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues."

LeagueGuy
03-15-2010, 01:51 PM
I need to throw in my 2 cents as well.

I have played in the APA system for a while. In our area the L.O. pays out close to 50% of what he takes in. Between cash tournaments, vegas trips, sending teams to other APA tournaments not to mention trophies pins patches etc. alot goes back to the league - just only a small % age of it is in cash.

If you want to play in a league for cash, then find a league that pays only cash and stop bashing the APA.

As for comments about the rules, the APA is gearred to bring new players into the game. The 9-ball ball count and no push rule helps the lower player. The 8-ball fluke rule and not open off the break helps the lower skilled player. What is wrong with giving a slight edge to the people who actully need it.

The BCA is a handicap league at the local level but if you want to go to the national event it is no longer handicapped. What makes me laugh is that if the APA format is so bad, why did the BCA come up with its new national handicapped leaguer. Could it be that the APA is right on the mark and that the BCA missed the boat and realized that the majority of players are not highly skilled ones. The bottom line is that the APA is a business for the L.O and i know many that put their heart and soul into it.

As for sandbaggin. My area does not have sandbaggin problem. By the way, for those that complain about others sandbaggin - i would go by the old saying that it typically takes a sandbagger to spot a sandbagger.

If you want to play for cash, go find a tournament somewhere and leave the APA alone. There happen to be 250,000 of us that love it and don;t care about the cash and want to try to earn our way to nationals.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But just because the 250,000 of us don't saher yours does not mean we are necessarily wrong.

smoooothstroke
03-15-2010, 02:06 PM
I have spent a lot of time bashing the APA and well....its fun.

True the numbers do not match up with other league systems as far as payouts.Yes its a pyramid scheme of sorts but...

-The APA works-

I know a few top players who got thier start in APA some even stayed with thier team long after they were able to get anything back.They used it as a way to give back to the game through coaching(skills and sportsmanship).The timeout is one nice feature of APA play.

The APA puts people around the pool tables on what might otherwise have been a dead night for the bar.These people around the tables are buying drinks and food,tipping the employees.Where I play we have 9' tables in one part of the building and 7' Valleys in another.Since the 9' tables do not pay for themselves on most nights the APA players help to keep the place open.

When I first started playing pool if I was asked to join a league I did not ask about payouts.New players want to get out of the house one night of the week and they want to compete and have a chance to win.Most people who become serious about pool or want to compete against higher skilled players simply move on from the APA.

When you start looking at numbers and payouts its time to leave the APA and find a different pool mode.

cswann1
03-15-2010, 02:11 PM
Nice post LeagueGuy.:thumbup:

stumpie71
03-15-2010, 02:34 PM
I've been playing in the APA for several years. My LO pays out roughly 40% cash yearly between the local tourneys and sending teams to Vegas. It's just a nudge above 20% :rolleyes: I know. I don't have a problem with the 23 rule either. It's not the rule that promotes the sandbagging it's the people that CHEAT for an edge. And the biggest complainers of the sandbagging are usually the ones that have done it and been caught or are the ones doing it.
As for the APA being bad for the sport by generating revenue for local pool halls, bars and businesses in the billiard industry. How is that bad? I don't see the highly skilled players out there trying to do this or much of anything for the sport. Other than complain that they can't get there share of the pie since most seem to think they deserve something for nothing.

Roger Long
03-15-2010, 02:45 PM
League is a product you purchase just like your car or TV. You're buying a fun night out with friends to play competitive pool as a team. It is not a lottery ticket or a massive tournament.

If that's not worth 8 bucks a week or whatever they charge, then spend your money on something else. Don't bash leagues for offering the product. Lots of players think it's worth buying and they don't piss and moan about not getting cash out of it. That cash is just the gravy on top.

I also think it's tacky to bash apa specifically, even if it's to promote another pool league. APA does something good for pool and brings enjoyment to a lot of people. If someone gets rich in the process then that's fine with me... when you do something well (like provide a good league experience to a quarter million people) then you deserve to get paid for it. I'd like to see both BCA and APA membership grow next year. Along with VNEA, TAP, and anyone else who is willing to do the work to get people into pool.

CreeDo speaks the REAL facts.

For years I said I didn't want anything to do with the APA, but that was because I had heard so many negative reports about that organization (such as some in this thread). I guess I should have learned to never say never. Our local APA league operators are a married couple who work very hard and do a wonderful job of promoting pool in our area. And theirs is the only league in our area that is actually growing during these tough times, while all the other leagues are losing players. Whatever it is they make off of their franchise, I can tell you that it is not nearly enough.

Plus, the APA national organization makes no bones about telling everyone that their goal is to make the lesser-skilled players happy, not to funnel money to those who think they are semi-pros and that league play should be a source for supplemental income.

One more thing; if the APA has learned how to make money in this industry, then I say good for them. That's what good business is all about. If others think they should "give it all back to the players," then that is their business. I wish them well, also.

Roger

APA LO
03-15-2010, 03:05 PM
Secondly, as many of the other posts have stated, the 20% is not that far off. I absolutely agree there are good and bad League Operators - but to state that I am spreading misinformation about the APA is not accurate.

The APA is a great business model - but it does very little to promote pool. There rules are 'make believe' and their system really promotes sandbagging (just ask the APA players). I do get along with several APA League Operators but the APA home office has policies that do nothing but alienate me.

But this thread is about how much money is returned to the APA players. I will stand pretty close to the 20% I stated earlier. You may pay out way more - but your brethren just don't.

Is that bashing? I don't think so - it is what it is.

Bashing is the APA BLACKMAILING the WPBA members to not cast their vote for me to be on their board. They say it would be a conflict. Strange that the APA never felt they were in conflict the 10 years that Renee' was on the BCA board. A little double standard?????

The APA has drawn the line in the sand - not me. I will try to work with anyone if that will advance pool. The APA can NOT say that. And that is one reason why I don't think they are good for pool.

If you want to debate this, please pick up the phone and call me (702-835-2000 is my cell). But if you don't tell me your name, I will not talk to you.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS



APA LO said "Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.

Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues."

I had you pegged to be a bit smarter than this, Mark. You have fallen into the trap of believing a handful of internet message board posters who just love to stir things up. For every person who likes to bash APA on this site, there are hundreds and maybe even thousands that don't visit this site at all (or even quit visiting this site after reading the constant negativity tossed at APA) because they love everything about the APA.

Instead of taking the high road and ignoring it, you decided to take the time to attempt to capitalize on it like an ambulance chasing lawyer. And even in your responses to me after I explained how embarrassing this is for you, you continue to provide misinformation about my league.

I pay back 50% of what my league members pay in weekly fees. A small percentage of what I make goes to APA in royalty, and between that weekly royalty and membership fees, my same members get some of that back in prize money in the National Championships. Thus, more than 50% return. I wouldn't expect you to know that since it really isn't any of your business. But, I know of several APA League Operators who publish a breakdown of their weekly fees in their bylaws for all of their league members to see.

Why someone might pay back more or less is of their concern and their concern only. As nice of an effort that Bola Ocho made on breaking down the local fees in his area, he completely forgot to include a whole lot of stuff that typically gets paid out in local league play. I pay out trophies and plaques to individuals and host locations, patches for every 8 and 9 ball break and every break and run, added money in individual tournaments, MVP prize money, paid entry fees into National events, trophies at the Local Team Championships, prize money at the Local Team Championships and probably a whole lot more that I'm not thinking of. I shouldn't have to tell the president of a pool league any of this. You should know these things. As a fellow business man, I shouldn't have to point out that most of these internet posters really have no idea what kind of money it requires to run a successful business. Half of them never even considered an actual business expense when they calculate how much I make. Nevermind that there is this thing called taxes.

As far as you being blackmailed by the APA National Office, that's not really mine or anyone elses business here. There's always 3 sides to every story, and all we have is yours. After reading how you assume APA LO's only pay out 20% because some internet poster said so, I'm not all that inclined to believe yours. At the same time, I don't really care.

Finally, calling APA's rules make believe and saying APA's business model does nothing to promote pool is just a bunch more misinformation. It's also a rather childish rhetoric since you now seem to be responding in a tone that suggests your feelings are hurt. How in the world did you become this misinformed, Mark?

As far as who I am and whether you will continue your discussion with me depending on whether I provide you a name, I'm sorry but it's once again none of your business. I am an APA LO and I'm damn proud of what I do and the product I provide for my players. I don't see why you would need this information since you seem to believe everything all of these other anonymous internet message board posters are throwing out there. I don't appreciate you badmouthing my business on a public forum. You will never see me badmouth the BCA on here. We get along with every BCA LO in our area and we recognize the benefits every league does for the pool business world as a whole.

Are there things I could say that would be negative towards BCA? Sure, but what would be the point? No one is perfect and no one is claiming to be perfect.

Promote your own product and quit providing misinformation about APA, and I'll leave you alone. Continue badmouthing APA and I'll continue responding in kind.

markpatrick
03-15-2010, 03:20 PM
I had you pegged to be a bit smarter than this, Mark. You have fallen into the trap of believing a handful of internet message board posters who just love to stir things up. For every person who likes to bash APA on this site, there are hundreds and maybe even thousands that don't visit this site at all (or even quit visiting this site after reading the constant negativity tossed at APA) because they love everything about the APA.

Instead of taking the high road and ignoring it, you decided to take the time to attempt to capitalize on it like an ambulance chasing lawyer. And even in your responses to me after I explained how embarrassing this is for you, you continue to provide misinformation about my league.

I pay back 50% of what my league members pay in weekly fees. A small percentage of what I make goes to APA in royalty, and between that weekly royalty and membership fees, my same members get some of that back in prize money in the National Championships. Thus, more than 50% return. I wouldn't expect you to know that since it really isn't any of your business. But, I know of several APA League Operators who publish a breakdown of their weekly fees in their bylaws for all of their league members to see.

Why someone might pay back more or less is of their concern and their concern only. As nice of an effort that Bola Ocho made on breaking down the local fees in his area, he completely forgot to include a whole lot of stuff that also gets paid out in that league area. I pay out trophies and plaques to individuals and host locations, patches for every 8 and 9 ball break and every break and run, added money in individual tournaments, MVP prize money, paid entry fees into National events, trophies at the Local Team Championships, prize money at the Local Team Championships and probably a whole lot more that I'm not thinking of. I shouldn't have to tell the president of a pool league any of this. You should know these things. As a fellow business man, I shouldn't have to point out that most of these internet posters really have no idea what kind of money it requires to run a successful business. Half of them never even considered an actual business expense when they calculate how much I make. Nevermind that there is this thing called taxes.

As far as you being blackmailed by the APA National Office, that's not really mine or anyone elses business here. There's always 3 sides to every story, and all we have is yours. After reading how you assume APA LO's only pay out 20% because some internet poster said so, I'm not all that inclined to believe yours. At the same time, I don't really care.

Finally, calling APA's rules make believe and saying APA's business model does nothing to promote pool is just a bunch more misinformation. It's also a rather childish rhetoric since you now seem to be responding in a tone that suggests your feelings are hurt. How in the world did you become this misinformed, Mark?

As far as who I am and whether you will continue your discussion with me depending on whether I provide you a name, I'm sorry but it's once again none of your business. I am an APA LO and I'm damn proud of what I do and the product I provide for my players. I don't see why you would need this information since you seem to believe everything all of these other anonymous internet message board posters are throwing out there. I don't appreciate you badmouthing my business on a public forum. You will never see me badmouth the BCA on here. We get along with every BCA LO in our area and we recognize the benefits every league does for the pool business world as a whole.

Are there things I could say that would be negative towards BCA? Sure, but what would be the point? No one is perfect and no one is claiming to be perfect.

Promote your own product and quit providing misinformation about APA, and I'll leave you alone. Continue badmouthing APA and I'll continue responding in kind.

Look at you, condemnation of Mark and yet you respond as well. Have you guys ever heard how Hubbard and Bell bought out Louie Roberts who was one of the 3 original owners of this league.????

Well no need to add FUEL to the fire.

APAs sponsors pay a big chunk of their advertising and kickbacks from Vegas for having the event there cover those cost. So, the 20 percent argument may not be that far off the point.

With Hubbard and Bell pulling down 7 figure salaries for their dedication.
Why dont we pull up the APA business tax filings.???

Now were diggin up BONES.

DeepBanks
03-15-2010, 07:20 PM
we've beat this one down to the fine points good.

I played APA . . . don't have any issues with a league operator making money . . . its a business.

The handicap system sucks. I played both 9 and 8 ball in APA . . . between the 23 deal and some asshole team captains we'd end up some nights having a 7 or 8 play a 2 or 3 handicap - ridiculous.

The team members improve - handicaps go up - bam! End of year you had to break up the team. I do believe that this is a fundamental of the model - its used to spawn MORE teams - MORE money - etc. etc.

IMO non-expert laughable opinion, APA should drop the TEAM handicap for the night - the 23 deal is what pisses off everyone. Make some conditions like everyone who plays that night has to play someone at the same or within one level of their skill level - period. Who gives a rats ass if you go over 23.

The sandbagging can also be rampant in APA from what I saw. Have a couple of "skilled" players doing observations/ratings and you'd stop a lot of what ails the APA. Some players (who were baggers) were swinging 2 - 3 levels during a session or during the year. Maybe 4's or above should never be allowed to go Down - if you proved you have the ability to play at that level - go from a 3 to a 4 - then you are a 4 until you earn a 5. From then on, you are one and you don't change until you improve to the next level. Some people made a science out of playing this F*cKi@g game on handicaps . . . that was enough to make me say screw this a few years ago and I never went back.

Also, i believe they should Pay or incentivize the finish in the regular league sessions more - do a payout or something. Going to Vegas ain't what its cracked up to be - most pay 50% or more out of pocket even with the league "help", and play matches at some of the most godawful times ever. BCAPL does a much better job with this, and there's a lot less emphasis on handicap. Most have a couple of local tourney's through the year in your town - no travel - a decent payout - and you play above average to very good players almost every match. You want to get better - play someone WHO IS better. Get your ass beat - you'll either learn or leave for a more "comfortable" situation.

APA is losing the better players to competitor's leagues as they do not feel that they have a place. If you have a choice in your area, and you're a 6 or above you go somewhere else as you can't play in the APA handicap system - you basically become a coach or mentor most of the time. Sit around all night and don't play. I'd rather play my buddies and get robbed out of a couple of bucks a game bets then sit around and do what the APA has going on.

But, the APA is a VERY good league for bringing in the beginners and spreading the game out to bigger numbers of pool players in america . . . what it doesn't do a good job of is trying to cater to ALL or MOST levels of pool players - ALL of the people who WOULD play league pool - and regardless of their ability.

APA does get most people who will play OUT to PLAY . . . they will motivate them to come have a weekly social revolving around pool - week in - week out. That is very important! But APA needs to do a "health check", as most players who reach 6 or above leave VERY quickly after attaining it. That's just as big an issue as not having 2's or 3's join in droves, because half of them probably never play out a year or so either. There's frustration on both ends of the spectrum.

Worst_7_ever
03-15-2010, 07:40 PM
I need to throw in my 2 cents as well.

I have played in the APA system for a while. In our area the L.O. pays out close to 50% of what he takes in. Between cash tournaments, vegas trips, sending teams to other APA tournaments not to mention trophies pins patches etc. alot goes back to the league - just only a small % age of it is in cash.

If you want to play in a league for cash, then find a league that pays only cash and stop bashing the APA.

As for comments about the rules, the APA is gearred to bring new players into the game. The 9-ball ball count and no push rule helps the lower player. The 8-ball fluke rule and not open off the break helps the lower skilled player. What is wrong with giving a slight edge to the people who actully need it.

The BCA is a handicap league at the local level but if you want to go to the national event it is no longer handicapped. What makes me laugh is that if the APA format is so bad, why did the BCA come up with its new national handicapped leaguer. Could it be that the APA is right on the mark and that the BCA missed the boat and realized that the majority of players are not highly skilled ones. The bottom line is that the APA is a business for the L.O and i know many that put their heart and soul into it.

As for sandbaggin. My area does not have sandbaggin problem. By the way, for those that complain about others sandbaggin - i would go by the old saying that it typically takes a sandbagger to spot a sandbagger.

If you want to play for cash, go find a tournament somewhere and leave the APA alone. There happen to be 250,000 of us that love it and don;t care about the cash and want to try to earn our way to nationals.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But just because the 250,000 of us don't saher yours does not mean we are necessarily wrong.


helps the lower player.

This is a good point, and very true, its actually the best thing that the APA provides.


The bottom line is that the APA is a business

This IS the bottom line

As for sandbaggin. My area does not have sandbaggin problem.

LMFAO...you do not seem to be nieve, perhaps this was a typo.;)

Worst_7_ever
03-15-2010, 07:50 PM
I've been playing in the APA for several years. My LO pays out roughly 40% cash yearly between the local tourneys and sending teams to Vegas. It's just a nudge above 20% :rolleyes: I know. I don't have a problem with the 23 rule either. It's not the rule that promotes the sandbagging it's the people that CHEAT for an edge. And the biggest complainers of the sandbagging are usually the ones that have done it and been caught or are the ones doing it.
As for the APA being bad for the sport by generating revenue for local pool halls, bars and businesses in the billiard industry. How is that bad? I don't see the highly skilled players out there trying to do this or much of anything for the sport. Other than complain that they can't get there share of the pie since most seem to think they deserve something for nothing.

The rule is what fuels most of the baggin nation wide...don't be nieve, its very simple. If they raised the 23 rule to say 25 or 27, and the individuals level upwards of 8, or perhaps 9, then the levels of baggin would go way down. Yes, there would still be some going on, but the fact that teams would have to split up less would be much better for the players, and much worse for the APA's bottom line and membership numbers.

Maniac
03-16-2010, 07:00 AM
Make some conditions like everyone who plays that night has to play someone at the same or within one level of their skill level - period.


DeepBanks, you make a lot of the usual good points, but I cannot agree with this solution. For instance, we have a team in our division (they do both 8-ball and 9-ball) named the Billiard Babes. They are an all-woman team. They are all a bunch of SL2's and SL3's. If a team loaded up with 5's, 6's, and 7's showed up, nobody would play that night. I understand the 23-rule problem, but your solution is slightly flawed.

Maniac

justadub
03-16-2010, 07:19 AM
APA is losing the better players to competitor's leagues as they do not feel that they have a place. If you have a choice in your area, and you're a 6 or above you go somewhere else as you can't play in the APA handicap system - you basically become a coach or mentor most of the time. Sit around all night and don't play. I'd rather play my buddies and get robbed out of a couple of bucks a game bets then sit around and do what the APA has going on.

If all the other leagues that we keep hearing about are SO much better, than this is fine, and a win-win. The better players that dislike APA so much get their wish, and move on. The rest of the team recruits newer players, making it easier for them to work the 23-rule. And more players are being introduced to pool. A win-win all around.

But, the APA is a VERY good league for bringing in the beginners and spreading the game out to bigger numbers of pool players in america . . . what it doesn't do a good job of is trying to cater to ALL or MOST levels of pool players - ALL of the people who WOULD play league pool - and regardless of their ability.


As always, the APA MAsters division is ignored in this part of the discussion. If there are SO MANY really good players in your league, there should be more than enough to make a Masters Division work. Then ALL of the people who WOULD play league pool can play league pool, and not worry about that pesky handicap system, the one that allows lesser players to play in a reasonable fashion.

APA does get most people who will play OUT to PLAY . . . they will motivate them to come have a weekly social revolving around pool - week in - week out. That is very important! But APA needs to do a "health check", as most players who reach 6 or above leave VERY quickly after attaining it. That's just as big an issue as not having 2's or 3's join in droves, because half of them probably never play out a year or so either. There's frustration on both ends of the spectrum.

I agree with this statement, in that any organization needs to do a "health check" on a regular basis, and more frequently the larger said organization gets. And perhaps some issues might be addressed for the better. But make mistake, ANY organization or league system will have issues of it's own. I suspect BCA, TAP, Missouri and Ohio will all have some wrinkle or other to be ironed out at some point, too. They just aren't the biggest fish in the pond, so those issues won't get the same attention.

Don't get me wrong. I do not agree with everything my LO does. As a matter of fact, he has some practices that I actively dislike. But I retain my perspective, and realize that he is the one with the responsibility for the entire operation, both the good, and the bad. If it's that bad, then I have the ultimate choice in the matter, not to play in his league. He has every right to make a living doing this.

stumpie71
03-16-2010, 04:15 PM
The rule is what fuels most of the baggin nation wide...don't be nieve, its very simple. If they raised the 23 rule to say 25 or 27, and the individuals level upwards of 8, or perhaps 9, then the levels of baggin would go way down. Yes, there would still be some going on, but the fact that teams would have to split up less would be much better for the players, and much worse for the APA's bottom line and membership numbers.

Your right it is very simple. Why do people sandbag? Is it the 23 rule? NO! The do it because they want an advantage over the other person/team. The 23 rule is a cop out. I have played in numerous leagues the past 19 years. Both handicapped and not. A couple were structured similar to the APA with the handicaps. One had a higher limit (didn't stop any baggin made it easier!) the other doesn't have a limit, you just have to play 1 lower skill level during the night. While I did like the structure and formats, it was not better or worse. Just different. Instead of trying to change it to your liking, why not stay with the one that suits YOU!
I have never been on a team that had to split up because of handicaps. Have been to Vegas numerous times and been in the finals or semi's to go to Vegas every year. We have had to replace a couple of players but plan ahead for that. We don't look for the best 3's or 4's we look for chemistry. When we replace a player it's usually with a new player that's just learning to play. I will take time to teach them as best I can and enjoy helping them. I love the sport and helping people learn. I may not be a very good teacher or highly skilled player like most on this board, but I get off my ass and give back the best I can instead of bicthing about what pool owes me.

Grilled Cheese
03-16-2010, 04:38 PM
Sandbagging is so rampant in the APA, that many of the more successful teams almost openly admit that sandbagging is not just part of the game - it IS the game.

Now, even those who do not sandbag do like the fact that the handicap system doesn't work. Regardless of whether they actually think about it in that way. Most don't. Here's why.

It's well known that higher handicaps typically clobber the lower handicaps. Lower handicapped players do not enjoy playing higher handicaps for this reason. The higher handicaps don't mind because lower handicaps are an easy win, and similar handicap opponents are just even up.

In a truly handicapped system, all matches are even or extremely close. This means that no one gets much over 50% win percentage, nor does anyone fall much below a 50% win percentage.

What that means is, people have to WORK for their wins. It's not easy. Every match is a battle, regardless of who you play. A lot of players don't want to work hard to win - which is also a characteristic of their overall outlook in pool and why they are mediocre at best or mostly horrible players.

Many people in the APA don't like to have to work hard in a match. They like having an edge, but at the same time get miserable when it's themselves who are at a disadvantage. Yet, strangely, they don't get it nor mind. I suppose because they cherish the blow outs they inflict on their opponents, and quickly forget the beatings they received.

Team Matches are most often won by "put-up strategy"....that is, the team that can leverage the greater advantage by selecting match ups. Again, another testament to the fact that the individual handicapping system does NOT work.

There are three positions you can find yourself in, in an APA match:

Even up, an easy win, or nearly doomed to lose.

That isn't the case in a truly handicapped system. You'll always have an equal chance to win all the time. All or most matches are even up.

What decides what position you're in? Whether you were put up first and the other team decides who plays you, or whether your team put you up against a known opponent.

As a result, you are most often at a disadvantage being put up where the other team decides who will play you. Thanks to the fact that the handicapping system does not work.

cuesmith
03-16-2010, 04:45 PM
Your right it is very simple. Why do people sandbag? Is it the 23 rule? NO! The do it because they want an advantage over the other person/team. The 23 rule is a cop out. I have played in numerous leagues the past 19 years. Both handicapped and not. A couple were structured similar to the APA with the handicaps. One had a higher limit (didn't stop any baggin made it easier!) the other doesn't have a limit, you just have to play 1 lower skill level during the night. While I did like the structure and formats, it was not better or worse. Just different. Instead of trying to change it to your liking, why not stay with the one that suits YOU!
I have never been on a team that had to split up because of handicaps. Have been to Vegas numerous times and been in the finals or semi's to go to Vegas every year. We have had to replace a couple of players but plan ahead for that. We don't look for the best 3's or 4's we look for chemistry. When we replace a player it's usually with a new player that's just learning to play. I will take time to teach them as best I can and enjoy helping them. I love the sport and helping people learn. I may not be a very good teacher or highly skilled player like most on this board, but I get off my ass and give back the best I can instead of bicthing about what pool owes me.

Frankly, if what you've said is true, you must be one of the teams of people playing the "numbers game" instead of pool. And I'm not *****ing about pool oweing me anything. If you knew anything about me, you'd know I've given a lot back to the sport! I just don't like the APA using the "23 rule pyramid" to enrich themselves and then using power plays to influence the boards of other pool organizations.

If you like it, you deserve all you get!

cuesmith
03-16-2010, 05:37 PM
Sandbagging is so rampant in the APA, that many of the more successful teams almost openly admit that sandbagging is not just part of the game - it IS the game.

Now, even those who do not sandbag do like the fact that the handicap system doesn't work. Regardless of whether they actually think about it in that way. Most don't. Here's why.

It's well known that higher handicaps typically clobber the lower handicaps. Lower handicapped players do not enjoy playing higher handicaps for this reason. The higher handicaps don't mind because lower handicaps are an easy win, and similar handicap opponents are just even up.

In a truly handicapped system, all matches are even or extremely close. This means that no one gets much over 50% win percentage, nor does anyone fall much below a 50% win percentage.

What that means is, people have to WORK for their wins. It's not easy. Every match is a battle, regardless of who you play. A lot of players don't want to work hard to win - which is also a characteristic of their overall outlook in pool and why they are mediocre at best or mostly horrible players.

Many people in the APA don't like to have to work hard in a match. They like having an edge, but at the same time get miserable when it's themselves who are at a disadvantage. Yet, strangely, they don't get it nor mind. I suppose because they cherish the blow outs they inflict on their opponents, and quickly forget the beatings they received.

Team Matches are most often won by "put-up strategy"....that is, the team that can leverage the greater advantage by selecting match ups. Again, another testament to the fact that the individual handicapping system does NOT work.

There are three positions you can find yourself in, in an APA match:

Even up, an easy win, or nearly doomed to lose.

That isn't the case in a truly handicapped system. You'll always have an equal chance to win all the time. All or most matches are even up.

What decides what position you're in? Whether you were put up first and the other team decides who plays you, or whether your team put you up against a known opponent.

As a result, you are most often at a disadvantage being put up where the other team decides who will play you. Thanks to the fact that the handicapping system does not work.

You have a pretty good grasp of the APA system. I think if the 23 rule was eliminated entirely, and maybe a scale of 1-10 instead of 2-7 to adjust handicaps was developed would be a good start. And then instead of the current "put up system" have each team captain, secretly make up a list of the 5 players and the order they'll play, in advance and present their lists at post time for the first match. This would hopefully make the match-ups somewhat random. If the 1-10 scale works as well as I think it could (with some work of course) it should make the matches between high and lower handicapped players closer. This would benefit the lower handicapped players in that they'd be able to gain some experience playing better players. This is IMHO one of the most important things a person can do to improve their game. I'd give more "coaching time outs" for the lesser handicapped players also so they can learn the correct shots to take more easily and conversly less for the higher handicaps.

Finally I'd put the lions share of the prize money into the local level tournaments. Also use them for qualifiers (Any team finishing in the top 25% is elegible to enter National level tournament) for anyone wishing to compete in a National level tournament in Vegas or wherever with a significant entry fee for the teams that wish to play. Hopefully their winnings from the local level tournament can be used to defray the expenses of the National if they should elect to play. This way if you're not interested in the Vegas circus your prize money doesn't have to go into that pool! And those who do want to compete in the Vegas tourney, and if they finish in the top 25% are elegible to enter.

Makes more sense to me, but I'm not trying to get rich!

Grilled Cheese
03-16-2010, 06:10 PM
The 23 rule is designed to break teams up, that's first and foremost.


Think of it like this...


5 players play in a given night. That's 23 / 5 = 4.6

4.6 is the average skill level you can put up at most for an overall team strength level.

Now, do this. Count up your handicaps on your team, and divide by the total number of players. If that number is anywhere near 4.6, you have a stacked team and a team where it is very hard to field a team without your low players there every week. Very close to breaking up or in desperate search of 2's, 3's or maybe 4's to get breathing room...while maybe having to kick 5, 6, or 7 off the team.


The notion that it's designed to keep teams from stacking high players would be true, but there's a few problems with this.

1. If it is true, then the APA is admitting their handicapping system doesn't work. Since a team of all 7's should play even against a team of all 3's. So much for the "equalizer" system.

2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.

This was to prevent teams from bringing 7,6,6 or 6,6,6 in playoffs where the goal is to win 3 matches to advance. This would obviously cause teams without an equal response in handicap level to get steamrolled. Again, another admission by the APA that their handicap system doesn't work.

If I'm wrong on this, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I remember this happening to some team at my pool room once. A team was forfeited for bringing 6,6,5 = 17pts.


But let's get back to the 4.6 average. This is important and the APA knows it. They've gauged it to where they know that the beginner will usually float around an SL3 for a season or two, but as they improve, the 4 - 5 range isn't hard to get to. That means, once some basic competence is gained (such as how to hold the stick straight for at least 2 shots), that individual player is now pushing the individual team average limit. Stressing the team's handicap.

Teams that stay intact are always, always teams that have two or three players perpetually stuck at an SL3 level. That allows everyone else to grow and improve and go up in handicap level without the team having to break apart.

If everyone on your team is learning and developing their game - your team is doomed.


That said, to maintain a team you need two or three people who have no capacity to improve. And other teams as well must have such players. Sandbagging teams don't have this problem.

Who wants to play in a league where 30% or more of the membership has no capacity to improve? I guess individuals who also have little capacity to improve themselves. Those that barely do, the SL6's and SL7's enjoy the league to beat up on people who have no idea how to play 8-ball. That's part of the put up strategy to gain wins. Not that most of them know how to play either; they rely on their better ball pocketing and position play abilities.

DirtyIrish
03-16-2010, 10:07 PM
You have a pretty good grasp of the APA system. I think if the 23 rule was eliminated entirely, and maybe a scale of 1-10 instead of 2-7 to adjust handicaps was developed would be a good start. And then instead of the current "put up system" have each team captain, secretly make up a list of the 5 players and the order they'll play, in advance and present their lists at post time for the first match. This would hopefully make the match-ups somewhat random. If the 1-10 scale works as well as I think it could (with some work of course) it should make the matches between high and lower handicapped players closer. This would benefit the lower handicapped players in that they'd be able to gain some experience playing better players. This is IMHO one of the most important things a person can do to improve their game. I'd give more "coaching time outs" for the lesser handicapped players also so they can learn the correct shots to take more easily and conversly less for the higher handicaps.

Finally I'd put the lions share of the prize money into the local level tournaments. Also use them for qualifiers (Any team finishing in the top 25% is elegible to enter National level tournament) for anyone wishing to compete in a National level tournament in Vegas or wherever with a significant entry fee for the teams that wish to play. Hopefully their winnings from the local level tournament can be used to defray the expenses of the National if they should elect to play. This way if you're not interested in the Vegas circus your prize money doesn't have to go into that pool! And those who do want to compete in the Vegas tourney, and if they finish in the top 25% are elegible to enter.

Makes more sense to me, but I'm not trying to get rich!

the main we have cheaters is they 90% of the time DO NOT want to play their level This year they think they are going to help out us level 5 and below by breaking up the "super Teams" anybody up for a friendly bet on whether or not that happens
not gonna do it nope nope not gonna do it
Irish

justadub
03-17-2010, 05:01 AM
2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.

This was to prevent teams from bringing 7,6,6 or 6,6,6 in playoffs where the goal is to win 3 matches to advance. This would obviously cause teams without an equal response in handicap level to get steamrolled. Again, another admission by the APA that their handicap system doesn't work.

If I'm wrong on this, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I remember this happening to some team at my pool room once. A team was forfeited for bringing 6,6,5 = 17pts.




I haven't looked at the team captain manual either. But if it is true, then my team would have forfeited right away at our state qualifiers a couple of months ago. 7+6+4=17. Played that way for all three rounds. Did the same for league championships, too. The LO was there for the qualifiers, and was re-computing handicaps between matches, so he was aware of who we played.

BTW, we went to the 4th player once or twice, and the 5th player twice as well. Guess it wasn't that big a competitive balance problem in our area.... Oddly enough, the other teams all had similar make-ups, give or take. None exactly, but plenty of high level with enough lower level to keep all these matches within one of the opponents handicap, were they drawn that way.

I'm not gonna go back over all the rest of the stuff again. Those who hate it will continue to hate it and rail against it. I just wanted to clarify this point.

Grilled Cheese
03-17-2010, 05:04 AM
Must be a local bylaw then.

I'm too lazy to check the APA manual online. That and I'll feel dirty looking through it.

LeagueGuy
03-17-2010, 05:59 AM
2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.

This was to prevent teams from bringing 7,6,6 or 6,6,6 in playoffs where the goal is to win 3 matches to advance. This would obviously cause teams without an equal response in handicap level to get steamrolled. Again, another admission by the APA that their handicap system doesn't work.

If I'm wrong on this, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I remember this happening to some team at my pool room once. A team was forfeited for bringing 6,6,5 = 17pts.



Who wants to play in a league where 30% or more of the membership has no capacity to improve? I guess individuals who also have little capacity to improve themselves. Those that barely do, the SL6's and SL7's enjoy the league to beat up on people who have no idea how to play 8-ball. That's part of the put up strategy to gain wins. Not that most of them know how to play either; they rely on their better ball pocketing and position play abilities.


Sorry Bola Ocha but you are way off on a number of points

There is no rule against playing any number of points in the first 3 matches. However in the 9-ball format there is a rule about playing 2 players 6 or more but again this rule does not apply to 8-ball. If this is the real reason that you weer unhappy with the APA (which I highly doubt) then you should have spoken to your division rep or L.O. and asked a few questions.

Secondly to insinuate that a team needs to have a 2 or a 3 who never wants to get better is completely off base. In the APA what teams need to do is to always have lower skilled players on their team. When their new players improve then they need to change around their roster which usually means a top end player leaves and a new players comes on. Teams that play in the APA understand that and that is part of the game. This league is built for the lower to mid player - not the highly skilled player although there is enough to keep the highly skilled player interested. I am an 8 in 9-ball and a 7 in 8-ball and have never thought the way you doabout the APA. Between the singles and the Masters along with regular league, there are lots of opportunities for mw to play other higher skilled players.

Wal-Mart gets more compalints than any other retailer. Does that mean Wal-Mart is bad. No, it just means that because of the numbers they will get more complaints. The same holds for the APA. Their memberships of 250,000 is 3.5 times higher than the BCA (I looked it up before I typed this) and many times what the other leagues have.

Not everyone needs to like the APA system. In fact, in our area, most of the sandbaggers and a__holes play in another league. Just another reason why the APA league I play in is so much fun.

elove
03-17-2010, 08:07 PM
I do not remember who sent me the PM about starting a BCA league in my area but PLEASE resend .....

TimKrazyMon
03-17-2010, 09:51 PM
2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.



There is no rule in APA 8-ball limiting handicaps other than the 23-rule, however in APA 9-ball there is an additional rule that you can not play more than 2 senior handicapped players. Senior handicaps are 6's through 9's.

overtaker
03-17-2010, 10:01 PM
It is sad when the owner of the BCA has to get on a billiard forum and bash another league. Things not going so well for you?

beav99_4life
03-17-2010, 10:05 PM
It is sad when the owner of the BCA has to get on a billiard forum and bash another league. Things not going so well for you?

Really? Would you like to guess again?

sunnyday
03-17-2010, 11:31 PM
It is sad when the owner of the BCA has to get on a billiard forum and bash another league. Things not going so well for you?

When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.

APA Operator
03-18-2010, 02:24 AM
It's well known that higher handicaps typically clobber the lower handicaps. Lower handicapped players do not enjoy playing higher handicaps for this reason. The higher handicaps don't mind because lower handicaps are an easy win, and similar handicap opponents are just even up.

In a truly handicapped system, all matches are even or extremely close. This means that no one gets much over 50% win percentage, nor does anyone fall much below a 50% win percentage.

<Extra stuff cut>

There are three positions you can find yourself in, in an APA match:

Even up, an easy win, or nearly doomed to lose.

That isn't the case in a truly handicapped system. You'll always have an equal chance to win all the time. All or most matches are even up.



Theoretically true. Practically impossible.

Think of the best player you know. In an 8-Ball match against a beginner (APA 2), what would the spot have to be to give each player an equal chance to win? 15-2? More?

Now play five of those races in one night. How long do you think it would take?

This is just one example, and yes, it is the extreme. But watch what happens next. Think of the fifth-best player you know. What would the spots have to be for this player and each of the players in the first example? What about the 100th-best player?

If you follow the logic, you can see that it is practically impossible to devise a handicap system that makes every match a 50-50 proposition AND can be played out in four or five hours.

So what do you do? Well, you could decrease the number of individual matches played on a league night, but my guess (and it's not much more than a guess, just a gut feeling) is that the true-handicap system would require at least two to three times as many games, so to finish the night at a reasonable hour you probably could only play two matches. Two players isn't much of a team. Location owners would hate it, since it would cut their crowd by 2/3. One player going on vacation would seriously hamper the team. All in all, this probably isn't a good option.

You could play multiple matches simultaneously. This would require multiple tables, though - again location owners would not be happy. You couldn't even have teams in a location with just one table. This probably isn't a good option either.

What's left? Make the races manageable so the average race can be completed in an hour or less. No spots bigger than five games. Your beginners are 2's, so the highest skill level is 7. That gives you six buckets into which you must group your players. Given this limitation, no matter how you determine the grouping, there will be plenty of matches where one player is the clear favorite.

Don't EVEN talk to me about spotting by ball count. Besides the fact that it's a horrible way to handicap 8-Ball, my contention would be that the disparity in ability between players would still produce matches that can't fit into a league night.

Please note that my comments apply to ANY system of handicapping, not just 8-Ball and not just APA. Every handicapped league suffers from the time constraints of a league night, so NO handicapped league can ever produce 50-50 matches all or nearly all the time.

Zims Rack
03-18-2010, 05:23 AM
I think that BALL COUNT is probably the fairest way to HCP an 8-ball league, not by games!

In 8-ball, the better players will win 70% or more of the games, which means that the lower hcp players are winning only 30% or less of the games. By using a ball count scoring system it requires the better players to play their game and not sandbag and rewards the lower hcp players for what they were able to accomplish during each game.

Zim's Rack 8-Ball League has a modified team hcp max... we use a 27 rule, when a team is over 27 they are not forced to split up or add players to roster to keep hcp below 27, but they do give a bonus hcp to the lower hcpd team. Doesn't discourage the better team from improving their game, but rewards the weaker team with bonus points that they are not likely to earn during the game.

98% of the time when a league session ends with playoffs you will have sandbagging- especially when a majority of your weekly fees goes to the playoffs or National Championship. Zim's Rack 8-Ball League has eliminated the need for sandbagging- all leagues have sandbaggers, it's how they are punished for doing so that makes a difference.

BTW- we play a 16 game round robin format with 4 players, starts at 730pm and ends around 1030 (some 10, some 11pm).

Zim

daphish1
03-18-2010, 05:35 AM
There is no rule in APA 8-ball limiting handicaps other than the 23-rule, however in APA 9-ball there is an additional rule that you can not play more than 2 senior handicapped players. Senior handicaps are 6's through 9's.

I believe Bola Ocho is talking about this rule:

16. 23-RULE/19-RULE IN EFFECT
The 23-Rule in the Open Division and the 19-Rule in the Ladies Division,
will be enforced. No team will be allowed to add a player to the roster for
23-Rule/19-Rule purposes. Teams that cannot meet the 23-Rule/19-Rule
will not be disqualified based on their inability to meet the 23-Rule/19-Rule.
Instead, they will be allowed to play four players whose combined skill levels
do not exceed 19 in the Open Division (or 16 in the Ladies Division), when
the sum of the lowest five players listed on the roster exceeds 23/19, and
forfeit the fifth point.
Just as in regular Session Playoffs, you must show that the players listed on
your roster could have made up a legal team if the match had gone the full five
points. If the lowest five players listed on your 8-Ball division roster do exceed
23 (19 for Ladies), your team will be playing with four players whose
combined skill levels do not exceed 19 (16 for Ladies). Obviously, if a fifth
match were required, your team would have to forfeit.

Stylez777
03-18-2010, 05:39 AM
As for the original topic:

I've played on the same 8-ball APA team for 3 seasons. Let's say we had an avg of 16 weeks in each season. so if I played every single week (which i didn't i missed a week here or there or had the night off because we have 7 players on the team and I took the night off so someone else could shoot) we have $8 x 16 weeks = $128 over 3 seasons = $384 which is a fair number to say I've spent on my APA league so far (our yearly team fee is paid by the bar we play for) Last season my team won the division and we also won the sportsmanship award which gave the team back money which came out to $120 per person on the team. So all in all for the avg guy like me I got back 25% of the money I spent to do something that I love to do every week. Also got a shot to play and go to Vegas which was also really cool. I can't complain at all.

Phidget
03-18-2010, 05:41 AM
I tried APA for 2 sessions last year. Went to cities and forfeited both times due to having a new team with handicaps going up. I got tired of trying to field a team with friends who play pool because i COULDNT. You have to have completely new players, people with one arm, or missing an eye to keep handicaps down if you have even 2 decent players on your team. Nearly anyone playing very often will go to 5.

I also experienced a nightly rep who had it out for my team and admitted as much to others on his team to the point that peoeple were flocking to other nights/pool halls. He also upheld the rules differently and admitted to not enforcing one rule because the guy on the other team was known to easily anger.

I also experienced an area rep who said she "handled it", yet the same behavior continued.

Overall, I paid in over $500 last year for leagues and dues. Out of that, I got 3 plaques that cost $15 each from the trophy store as well as a bunch of headaches and an inability to actually play with my friends (having to recruit strangers).

I also don't drink when I play (I go out to play pool OR drink, not both at once), so it isnt exactly a fun night - strangers, archaic rules, expensive, idiot rep....

I have since left APA and joined an in house league with 90% going to payouts. The format is odd, but the atmosphere is so much better and I can play with friends.

From my time in the APA and city tournaments, there was plenty of sandbagging combined with Oscar caliber performances from guys I have seen play well the other 6 nights in a week. I also saw about 25% of teams turn into crazed demons, out for "Vegas". I mean come on. On a typical league night to call a rep over to demand forfeits because a cell phone was answered!

It amazes me the money and time many people spend in this league trying to get to Vegas. Newflash. Save your league dues and shop around. Vegas is not that pricy.

APA has a good model from a business standpoint, plus they have the enviable spot of pretending to be the white knight of the sport so that talking bad about them is treated as a bad thing. I don't blame them their money, but don't kid yourselves it is about promoting the sport; it is about promoting their business.

This area just started some form of league (Super 30 i think) with higher rankings allowed per team. Dues are the same but with no big payout or Vegas trip. Great job. Listen to the complaints and provide what people want, but still charge them the same money as national stuff with all the normal payout money being divied between the apa folks.

I am glad I played in it so I could understand what people said about APA (good and bad). It also gave me a "ranking" so I could play in my local pool hall events (required).

I WISH TO GOD that other leagues could gain a foothold here, but it is just too hard to get enough people to play at once, and noone wants to play leave APA after their months or years of "investment" - - this just may be their year!

LeagueGuy
03-18-2010, 05:49 AM
When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.


How is it a fact when there is no way that anyone except an APA L.O. knows the facts.

This is not face it is speculation from people who already have a biased negative opinion. In fact it is blantant false information and borders alot close tosalnder than fact.

As i said previosly. If you don't like it then don't play. But keep the false information and the blatant lies to your self.

sunnyday
03-18-2010, 06:43 AM
How is it a fact when there is no way that anyone except an APA L.O. knows the facts.

This is not face it is speculation from people who already have a biased negative opinion. In fact it is blantant false information and borders alot close tosalnder than fact.

As i said previosly. If you don't like it then don't play. But keep the false information and the blatant lies to your self.

I guess some of you 'APA' supporters/ LO just can't handle the truth. Mark G. said that APA is a great business model and even complimented about it's concept somewhere in this thread, but all you can think of is that he is bashing APA? Wake up people.

I don't play APA, but I hear horror stories about it almost everyday. Plus, it seems like every couple months, there's someone starting a thread about how disappointed they are by the organization. So, it's not like there aren't plenty of people complaining about it. I don't think people get bored and make up stories day after day.

I'm sure there are good people among APA too, but it seems lately all I hear are complaints.

S.

uwate
03-18-2010, 06:59 AM
Does APA pay back very little to the local players who dont make it to Vegas? Yes for sure.

Does APA encourage mediocre play and tend to prune the better players from the league? Yes I also believe this.

Does the APA system penalize players for getting better? Yes and it encourages sandbagging.

All that said, APA is successful and I dont begrudge them for making a profit. They have found a market in the amateur pool community and their system benefits the pool room as well as encouraging more beginners to have a weekly organized pool league.

Really though, if APA is cutting a huge profit out of the league, then the natural course of business evolution is that this will create an influx of competition. A fat profit margin is like a big white underbelly of a sluggish beast that other starving entrepreneurs look to slit in a capitalist system. APA should watch their backs carefully because in the long run, a focus on extracting too much profit from the players with too small of a giveback on the local level will only result in the successful rise of other league systems.

Until then, I guess I will continue seeing players firing in a ball that goes 4 rails then off of two balls into a side pocket, and the rest of the team whoops and yells APA APA APA!

Ball Banger
03-18-2010, 07:01 AM
APA is a great business model.

First APA provides a 5 to 6 figure income to a multitude of people across this country and a few more.

Second it provides a playing field for those who would other wise not make the team or be 5th string.

Third the pay back margin is so low that most of the Player never see a dime.

alstl
03-18-2010, 07:32 AM
APA is a great business model.

First APA provides a 5 to 6 figure income to a multitude of people across this country and a few more.
Second it provides a playing field for those who would other wise not make the team or be 5th string.

Third the pay back margin is so low that most of the Player never see a dime.

I just joined an APA team for the first time and I did it strictly to have fun. I can already see why people complain about the 23 point limit for a team but you pointed out the reason why it isn't likely to change.

If I was getting rich with the current business model I wouldn't change it.

justadub
03-18-2010, 07:46 AM
I'm sure there are good people among APA too, but it seems lately all I hear are complaints.

S.

Surely you realize that 90% of the complaints are created by 10% of the participants, or less. This applies to almost anything, anywhere.

In business, we know that for every person that makes a complaint there are literally dozens more who are satisified, or not bothered enough to worry about it. Certainly we need to pay attention to those who are unhappy, but we alse know that they are nowhere near the majority, else we wouldn't still be in business at all. This applies to so many things in life, and all this APA bashing is proof of that.

I'm not always here in these threads to necessarily "defend" the APA, because A) they don't need defending, and B) I'm not always pleased with everything that is done, at least at the local level. I'm not here to say they are the best thing since sliced bread. But that doesn't mean I have to tear the whole thing down. It is a good business model, that they don't need to be ashamed of. It DOES get more new people into pool, which supports the local pool rooms, and the equipment manufacturers. And it gives all you "really good" players someone to either hustle, make fun of, or mold in your own image. Hey, some of us might actually get "good" some day, too. Nahh.........

As always, it is fashionable to bash APA if you consider yourself a "good" pool player. It's always fashionable to bash the big guy. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Obama/Dubbya, AT&T, the Yankees (justifiably :grin-square:) the Cowboys, anything that is very successful will get the lions share of the bashing, too. It is the nature of things. If you can't realize that and admit that, then we can't have a reasonable discussion.

It seems people aren't happy unless they are complaining... an oxymoronic way to live, but hey, what do I know? After all, I'm just an APA banger.

LeagueGuy
03-18-2010, 07:55 AM
APA is a great business model.

First APA provides a 5 to 6 figure income to a multitude of people across this country and a few more.

Second it provides a playing field for those who would other wise not make the team or be 5th string.

Third the pay back margin is so low that most of the Player never see a dime.

You forgot to add that it also;

Provides 250,000 customers that buy cues, cases, tables and other pool items

Provides customers to over 10,000 (I am guessing at that number) bars and pool halls , some of whom may not be in business without them

Provides table vendors with locations and revenue

any many other spinoff effects.

While the other leagues (TAP, BCA, Valley etc..) do this as well, the APA provides more as they have more members.


As a previous post said, if the APA does not give back fair value, then they will not be around much longer. The marketplace will dictate that. I can tell you in my area and in many others the APA is actually growing and the other leagues are shrinking. Maybe it is because of the work and money that my L.O. puts into it. (our area pays cash each session in a tournament as well as trips to vegas for teams, doubles, masters and captains winners) That may not be the case in all areas but that is why I take so much offence with all the bad info about the APA in these posts.

The APA system works and is good for the game of pool. If there are bad L.O.'s out there (and I am sure there are) then talk about them specifically if you must but don't generalize because what may have happened to you is not the norm. Every industry has its bad apples and our is no exception.

Ball Banger
03-18-2010, 08:01 AM
Surely you realize that 90% of the complaints are created by 10% of the participants, or less. This applies to almost anything, anywhere.


Justadub

Once again that wonderful APA Business model has found a way to make money off the Malcontents. They simply charge a $ 50 fee to file a formal disagreement and therefore get paid for their time.

CocoboloCowboy
03-18-2010, 08:04 AM
Here in the Valley of the Sun, ONE APA League Operator is spending a lot of MONEY to getting players to their LEAGUE! As I will will assume both Pool Newpapers are CHARGING the Operator for their 1/2 Page Color in one paper, and 1/2 Page Black & White in the other paper.

I would guess that is about 3-4 hundred bucks per month on advertising in those two publication alown, plus flyers, and poster? So the League operator is making GREEN...

APA is just one of of the 7 or 8 by my count with APA, BCAPL, ACS, TAP, VNEA, Arizona Pool League, and UPA.

Would not Pool be better off with just, One Sanctioning Organizations? Just one Sanctioning Organization Set of Stand Rules? Just Sanctioning organizations sanctioning, ALL Youth, Novice, Amateur, Leagues, and last Professional Pool Events??

LeagueGuy
03-18-2010, 08:20 AM
Justadub

Once again that wonderful APA Business model has found a way to make money off the Malcontents. They simply charge a $ 50 fee to file a formal disagreement and therefore get paid for their time.

Hey Ballbanger,

Again, rather than take a shot at the APA, why not simply recognize that in hockey, baseball, soccer, darts, bowling, and almost any other organized sport, you must pay a protest fee to file a protest. Otherwise everyone would file a protest every week for no reason.

Protest fees are common in every competitive sport but you choose to make it an APA issue.

Do you have a vested financial interest in dragging down the APA or do you just need counselling?

justadub
03-18-2010, 08:26 AM
Justadub

Once again that wonderful APA Business model has found a way to make money off the Malcontents. They simply charge a $ 50 fee to file a formal disagreement and therefore get paid for their time.

$50 to file a formal complaint does seem extreme. I already said I don't agree with everything they do.

Simple fix, don't play.

If you want to have a team with all your best buds on it, then realize you can't play APA if you're all "really good". It won't work, it ain't for you guys.

If you don't like the way the organization does what it does, don't play. Play in some other league.

If you expect to get paid to play in a league, don't play APA.

If you are so good that the APA rules seem silly to you, don't play.

If you are big league talent, why are you so worried about the minor leagues?



If you can't recognize that many of these complaints sound elitist.... :rolleyes:

APA LO
03-18-2010, 08:28 AM
I guess some of you 'APA' supporters/ LO just can't handle the truth. Mark G. said that APA is a great business model and even complimented about it's concept somewhere in this thread, but all you can think of is that he is bashing APA? Wake up people.

Claiming that 20% is all that is paid back is bashing the APA.
Claiming that APA's rules are make believe is bashing the APA.
Claiming that APA does nothing to promote the game of pool is bashing the APA.

I guess his way of offering up a compliment is to spit on my shoes before he kicks me in the ass.

If this was just a BCA message board, I guess I just wouldn't care what Mr. Griffin said about the APA. Instead, he said it on a forum visited by my very own customers. If he wants to spew forth a bunch of negative commentary about other leagues, he better be ready to deal with responses he doesn't like.

You will never see me on here bashing the BCA, and that's all I ask of Mark and anyone who actually works for BCA.

The negative crap does nothing for anyone. In a sense, I'm doing Mark a favor by stopping himself from embarrassing himself any further. He should only talk about what he truly knows about. That's it. It's that simple.

Everything else is opinion. We all know the old saying about opinions......

sunnyday
03-18-2010, 08:50 AM
To APA LO:

It looks like Mark G. has already answered your question. You should try calling him and speak to him yourself.

I think it was embarrassing for APA when the letter was read at the WPBA'S voting committee threatening to pull their sponsorship if Mark G. was voted onto the board - might I add - completely a voluntary service?

Besides, this is a public forum, anyone can speak their mind here.

If you don't like it, then don't play, LOL.

S.

First of all, I sure would like to know who I am talking to - you can contact me by PM if you prefer it that way.

Secondly, as many of the other posts have stated, the 20% is not that far off. I absolutely agree there are good and bad League Operators - but to state that I am spreading misinformation about the APA is not accurate.

The APA is a great business model - but it does very little to promote pool. There rules are 'make believe' and their system really promotes sandbagging (just ask the APA players). I do get along with several APA League Operators but the APA home office has policies that do nothing but alienate me.

But this thread is about how much money is returned to the APA players. I will stand pretty close to the 20% I stated earlier. You may pay out way more - but your brethren just don't.

Is that bashing? I don't think so - it is what it is.

Bashing is the APA BLACKMAILING the WPBA members to not cast their vote for me to be on their board. They say it would be a conflict. Strange that the APA never felt they were in conflict the 10 years that Renee' was on the BCA board. A little double standard?????

The APA has drawn the line in the sand - not me. I will try to work with anyone if that will advance pool. The APA can NOT say that. And that is one reason why I don't think they are good for pool.

If you want to debate this, please pick up the phone and call me (702-835-2000 is my cell). But if you don't tell me your name, I will not talk to you.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS



APA LO said "Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.

Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues."

APA LO
03-18-2010, 08:51 AM
When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.

You are not really helping matters when you claim something as fact that isn't fact at all. It's CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

Ken_4fun
03-18-2010, 08:54 AM
Don't EVEN talk to me about spotting by ball count. Besides the fact that it's a horrible way to handicap 8-Ball, my contention would be that the disparity in ability between players would still produce matches that can't fit into a league night.

Please note that my comments apply to ANY system of handicapping, not just 8-Ball and not just APA. Every handicapped league suffers from the time constraints of a league night, so NO handicapped league can ever produce 50-50 matches all or nearly all the time.

I am usually a APA basher but trying to stay positive on this thread.

In pool the better player almost always has the advantage, (gambling or league), and giving the spot may lessen it, but unless the spot is enormous the lower player is in a tough spot.

I dont like the other leagues (non-APA) where you have ball counts. IMO, especially in 9 ball the object is to win the game not make balls. So it teaches people to play the wrong way. APA 8-ball does count games won, not balls.

But this discussion seems to focused on 8-ball, so as I mentioned above, the 23 rule is good, and trying to stay as close to 23 makes the team as successful as possible. If the number was 25 or 27 as some has suggested, those teams would be nearly impossible to beat in the playing format. Imagine facing (3) SL7 verses (3) SL2-4. The winning percentages would be maybe 90%, and the SL7 has no fear of going up so they have no need to sandbag and can play full speed.

Again trying to stay positive, I cant think of a way to handicap that would get the 50/50 percentage and do it in a reasonable amount of time, that does not include the pain of ball counts, etc.

So all of APA bashers (me included), before you bash, give a better way that still meets that critiera.

Ken

sunnyday
03-18-2010, 08:55 AM
You are not really helping matters when you claim something as fact that isn't fact at all. It's CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

Well, thank you. Sense your beeing a grammer & spelling police, you mind corecting eeryone els' post:p

S.

APA LO
03-18-2010, 09:31 AM
To APA LO:

It looks like Mark G. has already answered your question. You should try calling him and speak to him yourself.

I think it was embarrassing for APA when the letter was read at the WPBA'S voting committee threatening to pull their sponsorship if Mark G. was voted onto the board - might I add - completely a voluntary service?

Besides, this is a public forum, anyone can speak their mind here.

If you don't like it, then don't play, LOL.

S.

You're exactly right, Sunny. Anyone can speak their mind here. And that's typically what people do. People badmouth the industry in just about every thread on this forum. There is so much negativity, that I typically don't visit here anymore. That's sad, because I think I have a lot to offer this game. I'm an enthusiast of the sport and I don't like any negativity. I only respond when someone calls into question my integrity, spreads falsehoods about my business or attempts to muddy the APA in general. For the lengthy posts that some of these people make, it's pretty clear they have some sort of agenda against APA. I care about the sport of billiards and it definitely makes me angry to see people constantly bashing a product over and over. If they don't like it, they should just not play. Along those same lines, If APA were really as bad as everyone likes to portray them to be on this message board, there is absolutely no way they would still be in business.

Mark decided to spread falsehoods about my business and I'm simply pointing out how embarrassing it is for him to do so. A true professional doesn't spread lies on public forums. Or at least they shouldn't if they wish to continue being viewed as professional.

I fell into the trap that Mark now finds himself in on this message board. You want to feel important and feel like you are making a contribution, but then you get sucked in by the negativity, and later you realize all you did was waste a bunch of time arguing with people who matter very little to the success or failures of your business. You waste the time because you don't want negative people to get the last word and make your product look bad. You are proud of your product and you want your customers to know you are proud of your product.

But, just be proud of your own product. Don't drag other people's products through the mud. Especially not with invalid and false claims.

You reap what you sew!

APA LO
03-18-2010, 09:34 AM
Well, thank you. Sense your beeing a grammer & spelling police, you mind corecting eeryone els' post:p

S.

Yeah, I was sorta having a little fun with that one. Sorry.

APA LO
03-18-2010, 09:46 AM
IMO, especially in 9 ball the object is to win the game not make balls. So it teaches people to play the wrong way. APA 8-ball does count games won, not balls.

Ken

I really liked your post, Ken. But, I have to disagree with you on the above paragraph. Maybe you didn't word this exactly how you wanted to, but I have to disagree on the level of importance it is to learn how to play shape on balls in 9 Ball, and string runs together rather than look for the first potential combination to cheese in the 9.

Learning how to play position and run racks is not the wrong way to play 9 Ball. If you don't learn how to run racks, you won't win very many sets.

While APA does not really reward someone for sinking the 9 Ball, the reward comes from stringing together lengthy runs, and does not reward for not stringing together lengthy runs. In other words, it will not reward you if your opponent runs 1-8 in every rack and leaves you the 9 Ball.

Ken_4fun
03-18-2010, 10:23 AM
While APA does not really reward someone for sinking the 9 Ball, the reward comes from stringing together lengthy runs, and does not reward for not stringing together lengthy runs. In other words, it will not reward you if your opponent runs 1-8 in every rack and leaves you the 9 Ball.

No, IT DOES REWARD you for running 1-8 of each rack.

The player makes 8 balls and gets 8 points, I would get 2 points for making the 9.

I get the break (which is a HUGE disadvantage in APA 9 ball because of the no pushout rule). I hook myself or get no shot on the one, and turn the table with ball in hand. Again the player runs balls, doesnt try to "win", but just make balls (and I have coached players, "just make balls!"). I dont tell them to break out balls to make run outs, I told them "just make balls".

IMO, the no pushout in 9 ball makes 9 ball a (lets say dissappointment) and I no longer play it in APA, and it is my game of choice when not playing leagues. I cannot win against a SL2. I think I had to make like 68 or 72 points before they made 16 or so. (No flames on exactly requirements because it has been a few years.)

Thinking that playing APA 9 ball will improve players is like thinking that sandbagging doesnt happen in almost every match. :rolleyes:

Ken

Total_Chaos13
03-18-2010, 12:07 PM
First let me say I have no pony in this race, just wanted to throw out what i see in my local apa league. Let me also say apa lo you sound like a great lo and I wish i had you as mine, if you ran my apa it might be the biggest in the nation, right now we are in the top 10 in members.

The op was about the math so lets DO THE MATH. These numbers will not be exact but just give an idea of the apa in my area. Like i stated before my region is in the top 10, I don't know exact rank but i have heard as high at 2 as low as 7. We have somewhere around +/-700 teams playing 8ball, 9 ball and dj 7 days a week. Our weekly fees are $30 per week for 8 ball, $30 for 9 ball( this may have changed i haven't played only 9 ball in a while) and $48 for DJ regardless if the bar pays all, some or none.

700 teams a week x 30 = $21,000 a week in league fees alone. (This number will be higher as there are several DJ teams.) So lets assume around 20% of teams by dj, which would be a fair guess so 140 teams. To keep the numbers simple lets say 150.

(550x30) + (150x48) = 16500 + 7200+ = $23,700 a week in league fees.


Three sessions of 13, 14, 13 weeks = 40 We have 6 weeks of playoffs, 2 at the end of each session but not all the teams play so to keep it simple i'll leave it off.

23,700 x 40 = $948,000 in weekly fees alone. This isn't including the $25 yearly league fee, which i guess most gets sent back to corporate so I'll leave it off as well.

Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

cuesmith
03-18-2010, 12:54 PM
First let me say I have no pony in this race, just wanted to throw out what i see in my local apa league. Let me also say apa lo you sound like a great lo and I wish i had you as mine, if you ran my apa it might be the biggest in the nation, right now we are in the top 10 in members.

The op was about the math so lets DO THE MATH. These numbers will not be exact but just give an idea of the apa in my area. Like i stated before my region is in the top 10, I don't know exact rank but i have heard as high at 2 as low as 7. We have somewhere around +/-700 teams playing 8ball, 9 ball and dj 7 days a week. Our weekly fees are $30 per week for 8 ball, $30 for 9 ball( this may have changed i haven't played only 9 ball in a while) and $48 for DJ regardless if the bar pays all, some or none.

700 teams a week x 30 = $21,000 a week in league fees alone. (This number will be higher as there are several DJ teams.) So lets assume around 20% of teams by dj, which would be a fair guess so 140 teams. To keep the numbers simple lets say 150.

(550x30) + (150x48) = 16500 + 7200+ = $23,700 a week in league fees.


Three sessions of 13, 14, 13 weeks = 40 We have 6 weeks of playoffs, 2 at the end of each session but not all the teams play so to keep it simple i'll leave it off.

23,700 x 40 = $948,000 in weekly fees alone. This isn't including the $25 yearly league fee, which i guess most gets sent back to corporate so I'll leave it off as well.

Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

No doubt the LO's must be doing all right. I just had some moron LO from Pennsylvania call my cell phone and leave a threatening message. I called him back and it seems that he believes I'm entitled to my opinion as long as I didn't tell people in AZ billiards about it. I guess he's afraid it'll cut into his bottom line if people realize how bad they're being taken advantage of! Well, "POOL LEAGUE BOB" from Penn, I really don't care who you knock my cues to, as you threatened to do in your message, as I can't possibly make enough cues to fill the demand for them in the rest of my lifetime anyway! And besides that I could care less how much money you, Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart make anyway. I just have a problem how you make it! Using the 23 rule to force teams to break up is a travesty that all players should rebel against. It only penalizes you for improving unless you play the sandbagging numbers game which isn't pool in any sense of the word!
I've long since done as some have advised and quit playing in the APA. That doesn't mean I'll stand by quietly as they rape the sport!
This post is specifically for "Pool League Bob" the classless moron who chose to call me with the stupid threats! Of course he probably hides under an alias when and if he posts here. His type are usually too cowardly to confront someone directly and only snipes from under his rock!

C_Whip
03-18-2010, 01:01 PM
First let me say I have no pony in this race,
either do I, I think all leagues have pros & cons.
Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

Going by your math, do you really think that your LO is pocketing your $698,000 difference? Do you know that a majority of your weekly dues goes to the St Louis office for their $1Mil nationals payout (and staff salaries)? Does your LO have an office staff that requires salaries? How about an office with rent payments? Did he/she buy the franchise as a current franchise, which would cost a lot in capital investment, or develop it into a large one through his efforts?

I currently only play BCA myself but I don't HATE either.

Grilled Cheese
03-18-2010, 01:09 PM
No doubt the LO's must be doing all right. I just had some moron LO from Pennsylvania call my cell phone and leave a threatening message.


I said earlier in the thread that many (not all) APA LO's use thug-like tactics. This corroborates what I said.

LO's are in a tough position. They own a franchise. One that is centrally governed by the corporate APA. That means they are stuck having to defend a horrible system, crappy rules and other negative aspects of the APA. It is understandable that APA LO's get worked up into a lather over criticism because the APA is their bread.

However, the proper way to handle it is not to threaten people. It's to either counter the criticism with the benefits and positive aspects of the APA (and let the free market decide) or to prove the criticism as being false. Not to call up cuemakers and threaten them, or threaten room owners like some wannabe mafioso.

markpatrick
03-18-2010, 01:28 PM
First let me say I have no pony in this race, just wanted to throw out what i see in my local apa league. Let me also say apa lo you sound like a great lo and I wish i had you as mine, if you ran my apa it might be the biggest in the nation, right now we are in the top 10 in members.

The op was about the math so lets DO THE MATH. These numbers will not be exact but just give an idea of the apa in my area. Like i stated before my region is in the top 10, I don't know exact rank but i have heard as high at 2 as low as 7. We have somewhere around +/-700 teams playing 8ball, 9 ball and dj 7 days a week. Our weekly fees are $30 per week for 8 ball, $30 for 9 ball( this may have changed i haven't played only 9 ball in a while) and $48 for DJ regardless if the bar pays all, some or none.

700 teams a week x 30 = $21,000 a week in league fees alone. (This number will be higher as there are several DJ teams.) So lets assume around 20% of teams by dj, which would be a fair guess so 140 teams. To keep the numbers simple lets say 150.

(550x30) + (150x48) = 16500 + 7200+ = $23,700 a week in league fees.


Three sessions of 13, 14, 13 weeks = 40 We have 6 weeks of playoffs, 2 at the end of each session but not all the teams play so to keep it simple i'll leave it off.

23,700 x 40 = $948,000 in weekly fees alone. This isn't including the $25 yearly league fee, which i guess most gets sent back to corporate so I'll leave it off as well.

Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

Just how much of that money do you think Terry and Larry let the league operators keep?

They may get to keep a 1/3, Larry and Terry get 2/3. Just a guess. Have not see the books or tax returns but they are probably public record.

LeagueGuy
03-18-2010, 01:43 PM
You guys all keep saying it yourself.

The marketplace will decide whether the APA is going to survive or not.

But that is not good enough for the majority of the negative guys on this thread.

You all, and that includes you Mr. Griffin, seem to think that you have to post speculation and call them facts, post fabrications and use other slanderous tactics in order to try to influence what the market has already decided

The marketplace says the APA has 250,000 players and the next closest has less that 3.5 times that. There are 7 or 8 other leagues now and the APA has survived all the challenges and will likely continue to do so.

So why don't you pleaes do us all a favour and shut up so that the market can actually decide. In 2-3 years if another league has grown even close to what the APA is, then you will have proved your point.

Right now most of you negative posters are coming off like a bunch of crybabies who can't seem to convince 250,000 other people to share your opinions. Agian - shut up and let the market decide. Just don't complain when you don't like the result.

beav99_4life
03-18-2010, 02:20 PM
You guys all keep saying it yourself.

The marketplace will decide whether the APA is going to survive or not.

But that is not good enough for the majority of the negative guys on this thread.

You all, and that includes you Mr. Griffin, seem to think that you have to post speculation and call them facts, post fabrications and use other slanderous tactics in order to try to influence what the market has already decided

The marketplace says the APA has 250,000 players and the next closest has less that 3.5 times that. There are 7 or 8 other leagues now and the APA has survived all the challenges and will likely continue to do so.

So why don't you pleaes do us all a favour and shut up so that the market can actually decide. In 2-3 years if another league has grown even close to what the APA is, then you will have proved your point.

Right now most of you negative posters are coming off like a bunch of crybabies who can't seem to convince 250,000 other people to share your opinions. Agian - shut up and let the market decide. Just don't complain when you don't like the result.

Ahh, another articulate and highly educational post. Thank you for your invaluable input. This post has brought the light to all of us "crybabies". Maybe we'll just "shut up" for you now.

Blackball75
03-18-2010, 02:56 PM
I've been playing for 9 weeks in APA 8-ball and am really enjoying it. It seems ideal for a novice like me (SL4) who wants to play league pool, meet like-minded people and have fun. It also seems like an excellent springboard from which to develop and improve one's pool skills and ability.

My LO is a nice guy, and no, I don't think he's "screwing" me (or anyone else) in any way. Neither do I get any impression at all that he's rolling in money which he fleeced off us loser pool-players. Rather the opposite; I really think he's doing what he does because he loves pool and he loves people.

On the national level I don't care that much what the APA makes. They are generally good for pool and provide a lot of people with a lot of fun. Sure, they are making a profit from my hobby, but all sports organizations do this. In the same way, Predator cues and Master chalk make a profit from my hobby. So what? That's how they survive (and in some cases how competitive events in that sport survive). As long as they plow back a reasonable percentage of their profit into developing the sport, what their shareholders get is a periphery issue as far as I'm concerned. Let them worry about the business. I'm there to play pool.

The only - minor - complaint I have about the APA 8-ball league system, is that I'd like to see the top 3 teams from Division Playoffs receive some kind of cash or other reward for attaining overall positions 1, 2 and 3 in the Division. ATM it seems even winning a Division and then the Playoffs means that a shot at the ultimate prize in Vegas is a very long way off. More immediate and specific prizes or awards for winning team members would be nice.

An APA-sanctioned "ladder"-style league for individuals would also be awesome.

Just my $0.02.

Of course everyone has opinions (we live in a democracy) and not everyone will like how the APA does things. But this one guy's pretty happy with them anyway.

RackRunner
03-18-2010, 03:28 PM
Well I made it to page three before I skipped to the end of this discussion. I have a good friend of mine who is an APA LO. He's actually the one who introduced me to the APA. I was put on a team by him to help out the team. I, like so many others was then lured in with the dream of making it to Vegas for the National Team Championships in August. I left the first team to start my own team and we proceeded to win the LTC and we went to Vegas my first full year being involved with the APA. My friend, the APA LO then proceeded to tell me he wouldn't let me play in his league the following year because he had teams complaining and threatening to quit if he let my team play. I guess it's a good thing I live so close to another state...as I took some players from year one and added some more and proceeded to win my second LTC and we were off to Vegas two years in a row. Year three and now my friend says I can play in his league again. After two years in Vegas I learned real quick what it would take to win a national championship, and unfortunately that means sandbagging your asses off. When in Rome, do as the Romans. I built a team full of 7's and everyone in the league (including the APA LO) knew the skill levels of each of the players on my team. BUT, not until we were in the finals of the LTC did my "friend" the APA LO decide to bump one of my players to a 6. When I asked him why, he said he bumped him because of "known ability", to which I replied, "you've known about his ability all year long." So I have no doubt that the APA LO was trying to make it as hard as possible for my team to "Threepeat", but we won for the third year in a row. Only problem, the losing Captain decides to file a complaint with the APA National Office, so now we're getting off the plane in Vegas with a target on our backs, right from the start. Myself and one other 7 did not see playing time that whole tournament. We ended up having to play with four players our last two matches. I tell you this for this reason...

The APA is nothing but a brilliant business plan to make the guys at the top a lot of money. I don't begrudge them that, and I don't care if the league operators make a ton of money either. My issue with the APA is simply the 23 rule, and the fact that there is no box to mark down a "lucky" shot. You have a box to mark a defensive shot, but what about when a player misses his/her intended pocket but a ball falls into a different pocket? They continue to shoot and no where is there a space so the LO knows it was a lucky shot. It makes the player appear to be better than they actually are. Therefore their scores/innings are better and they eventually get their handicap raised up. They do this on purpose so one team becomes two, two become four, four become eight and so on, and the APA grows exponentially. Great business plan. But the fact of the matter is, I signed up to play with my teammates, the guys/girls that I wanted to hang out with and play pool with. Now because of the 23 rule, we had to split our team up (3 times). I ran out of players that I wanted to play with, and so I for one quit playing in a league that counts slop in the games but doesn't want to keep track of it on the scoresheet...

Cory in DC
03-18-2010, 06:17 PM
NoBull

No way you can make money playing Leagues or is that my intention. But It is nice to know your hard earned money is staying in town to support local venues. Our Last place team even gets money back at the awards banquet.

Another Bone I have to pick with APA is the secret handicap system. At least in BCA everything is out in the open and anyone can do the math.

Why pay the last place team? You could just scale down the dues and reach the same place. All that does is loan the LO some money until the end of the season? And make people feel good when they get handed money for coming in last???

APA LO
03-18-2010, 06:45 PM
Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

This is exactly why you should contact your league operator before attempting to do the math. If you don't have all the information, it's a futile effort that will leave all of us wondering what is missing.

You mentioned trophies, but you didn't assign a dollar amount. With 700 teams and numerous winners, that's a lot of trophies. Trophies, plaques and patches/pins cost quite a bit of money 3 times a year and in big events like city championships.

No mention of individual achievements. Does your 700 team LO really not do any kind of MVP tournaments or awards for top shooters?

You mention tricup, money cup and city championships as three separate tournaments. The very definition of a tricup is 3 tournaments. Are you absolutely positive there aren't 3 tricups a year and there is one money cup and one city championship?

You mention that only two teams from this 700 team league went to Nationals. That's not even close. I'm only a little over half that size and I send about 10 teams. I'm guessing it's probably closer to 16 or 18 teams.

I'm going to go ahead and call you on the $2500 per team to Nationals, also. You did mention travel, and that's probably right. But, it also costs money to put these players in hotels for the 6 nights the team will be there, and that's a rather hefty expense as well. Especially when you are sending somewhere close to 18 teams.

I have a list of things that I also offer back in the form of cash and prizes, and I wouldn't be surprised if the LO you are doing the math for also has their list of things they pay back in prize money. How many things are missing from the list?

Finally, in a perfect world where one wants to break down the math, there are no holidays, no acts of god that cancel league play and there most certainly aren't any byes. I can't begin to tell you how much uncollected money you have calculated into your theorem for teams that didn't play due to byes in the schedule.

It's nearly impossible to sit there with a calculator to factor in every single prize payout when you are doing it completely blind to every faction of the LO's administration of the league. Heck, I'd have a tough time doing it for myself each year if I didn't track each and every expense all year long.

If someone wants to make it appear as though the LO only paid out 20% or less, it's pretty easy to casually forget some significant sized expenses. I'm not saying you have done this here and that you aren't making an honest attempt to do the math, but I have to say I'm pretty sure you are either forgetting some things or you just aren't aware of things that are missing.

The best person to ask where all the money goes is the LO him/herself. They'd probably be happy to point out all the things they pay out that you might not have even realized they do. They might even have a list of all the things they pay out listed right in their bylaws.

Scott Lee
03-18-2010, 07:00 PM
Blackball75...Your local L.O. can payout any way they see fit. They do not have to "conform" to any national standard. The national office 'offers' advice, but does not require the L.O. to follow it, regarding how prizes are paid out. Maybe if you get a petition going, and enough members in your league area sign it, the L.O. will do what you're asking.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com



The only - minor - complaint I have about the APA 8-ball league system, is that I'd like to see the top 3 teams from Division Playoffs receive some kind of cash or other reward for attaining overall positions 1, 2 and 3 in the Division. ATM it seems even winning a Division and then the Playoffs means that a shot at the ultimate prize in Vegas is a very long way off. More immediate and specific prizes or awards for winning team members would be nice.

An APA-sanctioned "ladder"-style league for individuals would also be awesome.
.

Ball Banger
03-18-2010, 09:29 PM
Why pay the last place team? You could just scale down the dues and reach the same place. All that does is loan the LO some money until the end of the season? And make people feel good when they get handed money for coming in last???

Cory

Our League might be a money league but we are more interested in the social part than the money. Many of our teams party together when they aren't playing pool. To have a cap on handicaps would really hurt these different social groups. Our banquets are a group party and we want everyone to have fun. Our bars are not open so the extra money for the last place teams helps pay the Bar bill. Truth of the matter is the First Place team doesn't really make any money after you take out weekly expenses.

markpatrick
03-18-2010, 10:44 PM
Why pay the last place team? You could just scale down the dues and reach the same place. All that does is loan the LO some money until the end of the season? And make people feel good when they get handed money for coming in last???

What are you talking about getting money for last place>?

Where the hell is this league at.? West Virginia?:frown::frown::frown:

markpatrick
03-18-2010, 10:47 PM
Blackball75...Your local L.O. can payout any way they see fit. They do not have to "conform" to any national standard. The national office 'offers' advice, but does not require the L.O. to follow it, regarding how prizes are paid out. Maybe if you get a petition going, and enough members in your league area sign it, the L.O. will do what you're asking.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Probably RULE 1, do not pay out anyone unless they win the Regional them give them part of the funds needed to make it to Vegas and arrange for kickbacks to Hubbard and Bell for each room reservation made.

GIve me a break. You want to play for fun? Start a fun league with no entry fee in your area. Let me know how that works out for you.????:mad:

overtaker
03-18-2010, 10:56 PM
When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.

Don't people in the BCA office have better things to do than put messages up on this waste of time. Wait I forgot, not much going in bca, lol

Banks
03-18-2010, 11:57 PM
Ok, which of you needs a kleenex? Wah wah waaah. Sheesh.

Most of the people that I've heard locally ***** about APA are 5s and 6s, maybe the occassional 7. One guy tried to tell me he left APA for BCA because of a lack of competition. He said I was his only competition remaining in the division.. that was pretty funny, seeing as how I'm not sure if he beat me even a handful of times over a few years, while I still think there's plenty of competition. Want practice? Try taking 5 before an "on" 5 or 6 get their 3 or 4.

Want to talk about math? Tell me how many group hobbies there are out there where you can hang out and drink while dishing out as little as $1.50/hr for the activity. Most of the players I know are 3-6 and they play because they are competitive and enjoy the game. The lower people would like to get better, but it is just cost and/or time prohibitive.

As far as whether the handicaps work.. in BCA 8, balls are counted. That really means nothing when you get run out or have no strategy play when you constantly fail to run out. APA 9 taught me that controlling my opponent's shot is as critical to a win as making my own shots. Each league's rules have their ups and downs.

Considering I drink and smoke, $7 or $14 once a week really isn't much figuring I *may* get money back and I get free table time here and there. Hell, sometimes I'll use a practice table and not even play that night or I'll be allowed to use a practice table on a night that I don't play league.

If this league hustle was such easy money, why doesn't everybody start one? I've said it before.. I don't think you could pay me enough to deal with some of the pool players out there.

APA Operator
03-19-2010, 12:36 AM
Really?

You could have just given us the short version of your story. "I cheated, I got caught. In the process I robbed honest players of three trips to Vegas. I don't play APA any more because of slop and the 23 rule."

You expect us to believe that's really why you no longer play APA? Come on, you were fine with the rules until you got caught cheating.



Well I made it to page three before I skipped to the end of this discussion. I have a good friend of mine who is an APA LO. He's actually the one who introduced me to the APA. I was put on a team by him to help out the team. I, like so many others was then lured in with the dream of making it to Vegas for the National Team Championships in August. I left the first team to start my own team and we proceeded to win the LTC and we went to Vegas my first full year being involved with the APA. My friend, the APA LO then proceeded to tell me he wouldn't let me play in his league the following year because he had teams complaining and threatening to quit if he let my team play. I guess it's a good thing I live so close to another state...as I took some players from year one and added some more and proceeded to win my second LTC and we were off to Vegas two years in a row. Year three and now my friend says I can play in his league again. After two years in Vegas I learned real quick what it would take to win a national championship, and unfortunately that means sandbagging your asses off. When in Rome, do as the Romans. I built a team full of 7's and everyone in the league (including the APA LO) knew the skill levels of each of the players on my team. BUT, not until we were in the finals of the LTC did my "friend" the APA LO decide to bump one of my players to a 6. When I asked him why, he said he bumped him because of "known ability", to which I replied, "you've known about his ability all year long." So I have no doubt that the APA LO was trying to make it as hard as possible for my team to "Threepeat", but we won for the third year in a row. Only problem, the losing Captain decides to file a complaint with the APA National Office, so now we're getting off the plane in Vegas with a target on our backs, right from the start. Myself and one other 7 did not see playing time that whole tournament. We ended up having to play with four players our last two matches. I tell you this for this reason...

The APA is nothing but a brilliant business plan to make the guys at the top a lot of money. I don't begrudge them that, and I don't care if the league operators make a ton of money either. My issue with the APA is simply the 23 rule, and the fact that there is no box to mark down a "lucky" shot. You have a box to mark a defensive shot, but what about when a player misses his/her intended pocket but a ball falls into a different pocket? They continue to shoot and no where is there a space so the LO knows it was a lucky shot. It makes the player appear to be better than they actually are. Therefore their scores/innings are better and they eventually get their handicap raised up. They do this on purpose so one team becomes two, two become four, four become eight and so on, and the APA grows exponentially. Great business plan. But the fact of the matter is, I signed up to play with my teammates, the guys/girls that I wanted to hang out with and play pool with. Now because of the 23 rule, we had to split our team up (3 times). I ran out of players that I wanted to play with, and so I for one quit playing in a league that counts slop in the games but doesn't want to keep track of it on the scoresheet...

Eieio59
03-19-2010, 05:32 AM
Just how much of that money do you think Terry and Larry let the league operators keep?

They may get to keep a 1/3, Larry and Terry get 2/3. Just a guess. Have not see the books or tax returns but they are probably public record.

So, when are you making YOUR tax returns public? Just wondering :smile:

Eieio59
03-19-2010, 05:56 AM
Probably RULE 1, do not pay out anyone unless they win the Regional them give them part of the funds needed to make it to Vegas and arrange for kickbacks to Hubbard and Bell for each room reservation made.

GIve me a break. You want to play for fun? Start a fun league with no entry fee in your area. Let me know how that works out for you.????:mad:

Mark Patrick.... this is not pointed at you.....just couldn't get my regular reply to work!!!!

Do you not understand that this is a BUSINESS. WE run our business and our CUSTOMERS have the right to choose not to play or to play. If we were truly giving unsatisfactory service to them, they would simply just choose not to play, just as you would choose not to shop at a particular store if you didn't agree with their policies. The APA is not a league put together by somebody who wants a hobby on the side, who has another full-time job to support them. The APA is run by business people who treat it as such and sell a product/service to their customers, who - again - have the right to say no at any time and leave. Apparently, since the APA has over 250,000 members, their CUSTOMERS must approve.:smile: What I think happens here on this board is that NON-customers who do not, for whatever reason, like the APA or, have an agenda against it - tend to try to disclose to everyone how much money everyone makes running the APA and to disclose everything that THEY don't like about the APA. NOW - if this was truly an APA player who was having issues, they have several lines of recourse: 1) they could contact their local league operator; 2) if that didn't satisfy them, they could contact APA National office; 3) quit, if they didn't like how the National Office responded - and I assure you they respond.

Obviously this is not the case, however, as the same players over and over again continue to bash the APA on every possible thread. If you don't have a horse in the race, why bet? If you do have a horse in the race, why complain here - why not go thru the proper channels? If you have gone thru the proper channels and don't like what you see/hear, why play? It is a never ending cycle - and it gets old.

You must realize that when that when you say these things you are attacking someones credibility and most people will take offense to it, just as I do. I have been in the pool and billiard industry my entire life and if you can find ONE SINGLE person who will tell you that I have EVER ripped them off, cheated or whatever, I'll apologize to you VERY publicly..... so please be more careful when you throw around these types of comments.

Here's my final comment: If YOU want to PLAY in a funsy league, then please - start one yourself...... please put up your own money for advertising, gas, insurance, office products, etc, etc, etc..... THEN continue to pour your money into it for all of these things while you struggle to pay your bills (because you simply can't work a full time job and run your league). Be sure to put the 60+ hours per week into running and advertising your league, work 32 weekends out of the year (oh, and on those weekends - they aren't 8 hour days.....)...... do this for a few years, and then - maybe then..... you will call the APA office and ask how YOU can buy a franchise! By that time, you will be so tired of DOING IT FOR FREE, you might understand.:p

justadub
03-19-2010, 06:59 AM
Probably RULE 1, do not pay out anyone unless they win the Regional them give them part of the funds needed to make it to Vegas and arrange for kickbacks to Hubbard and Bell for each room reservation made.

GIve me a break. You want to play for fun? Start a fun league with no entry fee in your area. Let me know how that works out for you.????:mad:

Just to point out that not all APA areas operate the same as what YOU might be used to...

We won our Division playoffs last session. Our team split $800 between us. The second place team split $400 between them. $1200 in our division that session.

Multiply that by three sessions. $1200 x 3 = $3600

Multiply that by 2 (number of divisions our LO has) $3600 x 2 = $7200

Thats just here in little old backwoods Maine. In payouts for winning your Division session. BEFORE going to any Regionals. And our LO still sends I believe 5 teams to Vegas in the end.

So some actually DO make a little bit of scratch from playing in our league, and our LO does pay out a pretty fair amount. Certainly not to the level all your hot-shot players expect, not bad for a "fun" League.

Darn it, I guess he didn't see Rule Number 1, huh?

cuesmith
03-19-2010, 07:28 AM
Mark Patrick.... this is not pointed at you.....just couldn't get my regular reply to work!!!!

Do you not understand that this is a BUSINESS. WE run our business and our CUSTOMERS have the right to choose not to play or to play. If we were truly giving unsatisfactory service to them, they would simply just choose not to play, just as you would choose not to shop at a particular store if you didn't agree with their policies. The APA is not a league put together by somebody who wants a hobby on the side, who has another full-time job to support them. The APA is run by business people who treat it as such and sell a product/service to their customers, who - again - have the right to say no at any time and leave. Apparently, since the APA has over 250,000 members, their CUSTOMERS must approve.:smile: What I think happens here on this board is that NON-customers who do not, for whatever reason, like the APA or, have an agenda against it - tend to try to disclose to everyone how much money everyone makes running the APA and to disclose everything that THEY don't like about the APA. NOW - if this was truly an APA player who was having issues, they have several lines of recourse: 1) they could contact their local league operator; 2) if that didn't satisfy them, they could contact APA National office; 3) quit, if they didn't like how the National Office responded - and I assure you they respond.

Obviously this is not the case, however, as the same players over and over again continue to bash the APA on every possible thread. If you don't have a horse in the race, why bet? If you do have a horse in the race, why complain here - why not go thru the proper channels? If you have gone thru the proper channels and don't like what you see/hear, why play? It is a never ending cycle - and it gets old.

You must realize that when that when you say these things you are attacking someones credibility and most people will take offense to it, just as I do. I have been in the pool and billiard industry my entire life and if you can find ONE SINGLE person who will tell you that I have EVER ripped them off, cheated or whatever, I'll apologize to you VERY publicly..... so please be more careful when you throw around these types of comments.

Here's my final comment: If YOU want to PLAY in a funsy league, then please - start one yourself...... please put up your own money for advertising, gas, insurance, office products, etc, etc, etc..... THEN continue to pour your money into it for all of these things while you struggle to pay your bills (because you simply can't work a full time job and run your league). Be sure to put the 60+ hours per week into running and advertising your league, work 32 weekends out of the year (oh, and on those weekends - they aren't 8 hour days.....)...... do this for a few years, and then - maybe then..... you will call the APA office and ask how YOU can buy a franchise! By that time, you will be so tired of DOING IT FOR FREE, you might understand.:p

I too hope to make this my last comment on the subject!

First I don't begrudge the APA making a living, even a GOOD living. Especially the league operators. I know it's a thankless job with more headaches than Carters has little liver pills (just showing my age there). But ....

You should not think because you have 250,000 members that they are happy or even satisfied with the system! I assure you the vast majority of them think it sucks! But in a lot of cases it's "the only game in town" for them anyway.

The concept of a night out with your friends, playing pool is very inviting. In the beginning things seem pretty innoculous but the longer one plays in the APA the more they realize what a rediculous system it really is. Sure you still have your night out, but you've likely had to split your team up and form teams with new players. For some this type of social interaction may be just the ticket, but most want to play pool and don't like being told who they can play with.

Anyone who says that sandbagging isn't a HUGE problem in the APA is either naive or simply a liar! The sandbagging is obviously fueled in large part due to the infamous "23 rule"! This "23 rule" is strictly an instrument used to divide teams and create more of them, thereby bringing in more money for the APA heads, LO's, bar owners etc. While this may seem like a good thing, bringing more players to the sport etc.... That's what the APA would like you to believe! BUT the harm done by forcing people to sandbag way more than outweighs the the benefit of more players. Give the people a league that rewards them for improving, helps people who want to advance beyond the amateur rankings and gives something back to the sport in the way of pro tournament sponsorship and I think you'll see some improvement in the way the sport is perceived.

I understand that a lot of the LO's are hard working, conscientious people who are very much interested in the sport. They also are caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't blame them for defending their business interests, but the LO's need to let St. Louis know that people aren't satisfied with status quo. That if they want to continue to lead the market they'll have to change before someone does put the time effort and money into making a league that people will be satisfied with. If they wait til that happens it will be too late, the bubble will burst! Personally I'd rather see the APA correct the flaws in their system and really become the model pool league they try to make people think they are. They already have the infrastructure. But I'm afraid they are doomed to their own greed and are too stubborn and greedy to make the changes for the better! And here I'm refering to the top of the food chain, not the LO's.

I'm off the soap box, wasted too much time arguing what I see as the obvious!

APA LO
03-19-2010, 08:12 AM
I too hope to make this my last comment on the subject!

First I don't begrudge the APA making a living, even a GOOD living. Especially the league operators. I know it's a thankless job with more headaches than Carters has little liver pills (just showing my age there). But ....

You should not think because you have 250,000 members that they are happy or even satisfied with the system! I assure you the vast majority of them think it sucks! But in a lot of cases it's "the only game in town" for them anyway.

The concept of a night out with your friends, playing pool is very inviting. In the beginning things seem pretty innoculous but the longer one plays in the APA the more they realize what a rediculous system it really is. Sure you still have your night out, but you've likely had to split your team up and form teams with new players. For some this type of social interaction may be just the ticket, but most want to play pool and don't like being told who they can play with.

Anyone who says that sandbagging isn't a HUGE problem in the APA is either naive or simply a liar! The sandbagging is obviously fueled in large part due to the infamous "23 rule"! This "23 rule" is strictly an instrument used to divide teams and create more of them, thereby bringing in more money for the APA heads, LO's, bar owners etc. While this may seem like a good thing, bringing more players to the sport etc.... That's what the APA would like you to believe! BUT the harm done by forcing people to sandbag way more than outweighs the the benefit of more players. Give the people a league that rewards them for improving, helps people who want to advance beyond the amateur rankings and gives something back to the sport in the way of pro tournament sponsorship and I think you'll see some improvement in the way the sport is perceived.

I understand that a lot of the LO's are hard working, conscientious people who are very much interested in the sport. They also are caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't blame them for defending their business interests, but the LO's need to let St. Louis know that people aren't satisfied with status quo. That if they want to continue to lead the market they'll have to change before someone does put the time effort and money into making a league that people will be satisfied with. If they wait til that happens it will be too late, the bubble will burst! Personally I'd rather see the APA correct the flaws in their system and really become the model pool league they try to make people think they are. They already have the infrastructure. But I'm afraid they are doomed to their own greed and are too stubborn and greedy to make the changes for the better! And here I'm refering to the top of the food chain, not the LO's.

I'm off the soap box, wasted too much time arguing what I see as the obvious!

APA has done exactly as you requested, Sherm. They developed a Masters League. This sounds like the exact thing you are looking for. You will never have to break up your team in this format.

I haven't responded to you before, mainly because it seems rather obvious to me that you seem pretty convinced in our opinion. It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt it. But, for your loyal readers, I will go ahead and do it anyway. I operate a very big league. Not once in probably the last 5 years has a team split in two due to handicaps in my league. A team split in two because there was a ton of infighting going on amongst them, but not once has a team split in two for handicap reasons. Thus, the "pyramid scheme" thought process is quite skewed.

It's already been said before in this thread, but the typical move is to replace a higher skilled player with a lower skilled player. One roster change can typically fix a team's handicap issue. With 8 players on a roster, it's hard to keep the same 8 players on a team in the first place. In all the years I played APA before becoming an LO, I can't think of a single time I went into the next session with the same identical team. Not because of handicaps, but because someone started going to school on Tuesday nights, or someone got a girlfriend who didn't like pool, or they took a job at night, or they decided they just didn't like committing to Tuesday's, or they were too selfish to sit and let one of their teammates shoot that night, etc........If you really have no friends that aren't high skilled players, I suggest you go out and find some. People who don't live and breathe pool need friends, too.:smile:

I'd ask you what your skill level was when you first joined APA, but I'll just assume you are a highly skilled player, because it's generally the highest skilled players who enjoy hearing themselves talk the most. ;), but APA created this league to bring NEW people to the sport. It's done exactly that. If APA raises the handicap limit, they now alienate the whole concept of bringing new people to the sport.

I've yet to meet someone who can take a cue out of the rack for the very first time in their life and shoot 7 level pool. I've also never seen any other pool leagues cater to this very same person. If you put that new player in any non handicapped league in my area, the team that added him will be laughed out of the building by all the serious pool players.

APA designed a handicap system that allows this gentleman to get his feet wet with organized pool league play. When he becomes so good that every other league can benefit from having him in their league, he will have plenty of choices.

I know it's an inconvenience for a team to have to drop even one player due to handicaps. But, people do get better. And the honest teams do what they have to do. They bring a new member to the team that will likely take years to get to the level of the player they replaced. You are also correct that some people will not do the right thing and just attempt to skirt the rules. In some areas, it's quite possible that the honest people stayed quiet too long and the league might be overrun by not so honest people. But, that's not everywhere and that's not to say APA simply turns their back on the problem.

Some of us care more than you will ever know. But, the fine folks at AzBillards certainly aren't the one's you should be complaining to. Complain to the local LO. If that doesn't solve the problem, contact the APA.

But, by all means, please don't assume that APA is what's broke because they won't adjust the skill level limit to meet YOUR team's needs. APA is looking at the big picture and promoting pool to everyone who enjoys to play the game, not just the select few that are actually good at the game. It would be silly to think that APA could raise the handicap limit to 30 and still have an influx of new people join the league. If APA did that, we'd be catering to the same select few that every other league is catering to. What would be the point of that and how would that be promoting new people to the sport?

At the very least, just get over it already if you really hate APA. It's not healthy for you to spend this much time agonizing over something that is no longer a part of your life. If you want it to still be part of your life, go through the proper procedures to fix it. Again, AzBilliards has a wonderful site, but I doubt they have the wherewithall to handle local APA skill level handicap complaints. I'm not so sure they even want to tackle that issue. As a person who does deal with handicap complaints, I can assure them they don't want any part of it. It's not my favorite part of this job, but it must be done.

CreeDo
03-19-2010, 09:06 AM
Wish I could rep APA LO again. It's not even that I'm a big fan of APA, I'm not in it anymore. But it's nice to see someone fight for something they obviously believe in. He's willing to go to bat with a forum full of hostile attitudes and deeply ingrained misconceptions. And his arguments are clear and direct and I'd like to think they get through to someone. But that requires the bashers to open up their minds and throw away their agenda.

Does anyone read this guy's posts and truly, sincerely believe he's just lying through his teeth and raking in piles of cash with some pyramid scheme? And what about the 250k members, they've all been fooled and should be playing elsewhere? Maybe... just maybe... we should give them some credit. It's very possible they go in making an informed decision, and they're aware of other options, but they stick with the APA because they actually like it and aren't worried about payouts. I don't think they'd quit if the league operator opened up his books.

jason
03-19-2010, 09:48 AM
As Mark Griffen stated, the APA has a great business model. The APA has successfully carved its place in the very limited pool market.

For any successful business model that is to be sustainable, it must be profitable in free society. The APA has done that. Maybe a few at the top have made a good deal of money, but I don't think any LO's are getting rich. I think most do it as a labor of love. As a former BCA LO (pre BCA-PL) I can tell you that it is a lot of work.

Just because they have 250,000 doesn't mean it is the best thing for the game of pool. Some pool purists will argue that the bar box has hurt the game.

The problem or by-product is the handicapping system and therefore the sandbagging. The APA has yet to solve this problem to the satisfaction of the majority of the players.

The bottom line is we (the pool community) should be working together for the best interest of the game. When someone like APA LO attacks someone like Mark who has done so much for the game, it saddens me. If the APA was an end all solution, they wouldn't be getting so much backlash from the pool community.

The APA has done very little to promote the higher level pool player. As many have stated, they force you to generate a new team after reaching a certain skill level or quit. Where does this agree with the idea of a "social league"? It doesn't because the APA is about generating money first, not about the best interest of the game. That's the bottom line.

APA LO
03-19-2010, 10:09 AM
When someone like APA LO attacks someone like Mark who has done so much for the game, it saddens me.

Let me get this straight, the president of the BCA is posting in an APA thread falsehoods about the APA and I'm the guilty one?

Consider me guilty as charged, I suppose. :confused:

sunnyday
03-19-2010, 10:22 AM
Don't people in the BCA office have better things to do than put messages up on this waste of time. Wait I forgot, not much going in bca, lol

Yes, so not much going on there is $13,000 added BCAPL State tournament going on this weekend in Oklahoma:rolleyes:

S.

IbeAnEngineer
03-19-2010, 10:22 AM
[QUOTE=APA LO;2328737]APA has done exactly as you requested, Sherm. They developed a Masters League. This sounds like the exact thing you are looking for. You will never have to break up your team in this format.

APA LO,

Does a player have to be on a regular APA 8 or 9 ball team in order to participate in the masters?

TimKrazyMon
03-19-2010, 11:06 AM
Does a player have to be on a regular APA 8 or 9 ball team in order to participate in the masters?

As far as I know, you only have to have an established APA handicap of 6 or higher in 8-ball or 9-ball.

CreeDo
03-19-2010, 11:44 AM
A couple of things I disagree with...

Just because they have 250,000 doesn't mean it is the best thing for the game of pool. Some pool purists will argue that the bar box has hurt the game.

If your argument is that popular doesn't mean good for pool... are you sure? If you could distill 'good for pool' into a single, definable goal... an end result to work towards... what would it be?

"More people playing" sounds like a pretty good candidate.


The problem or by-product is the handicapping system and therefore the sandbagging. The APA has yet to solve this problem to the satisfaction of the majority of the players.


Can you prove that a majority... 50% or even 25%... consider sandbagging to be a major problem? There's a whole community of guys who play every week and have no complaints. They don't post here and they don't write angry letters to the LO about some guy staying at 4 when he should be bumped to a 5.

We don't hear from those guys because they aren't going out of their way to say everything's fine. It's the vocal minority that's doing all the talking. It gives the impression that there's a tidal wave of complaints about sandbagging when probably it's only a small fraction of players who notice or care about who's-ranked-what.


The bottom line is we (the pool community) should be working together for the best interest of the game. When someone like APA LO attacks someone like Mark who has done so much for the game, it saddens me. If the APA was an end all solution, they wouldn't be getting so much backlash from the pool community.


That's ridiculous. LO didn't start this thread, nor did he talk to or about mark until mark went after him. He felt like he was, at least indirectly, under attack. People are talking about apa LO's in general like they're greedy a-holes who break up teams to make more money and permit sandbagging because they don't care about the fairness of the matches. It's kind of a no-brainer that a guy who ID's himself as APA LO is going to fight back.

The "backlash" you're talking about happens in any successful venture. The bigger something gets, the more complaints you'll get. Nobody got to be the size of mcdonald's without pissing off a lot of people. There is no way you will see a league that is huge and popular and makes money for everyone, and has a fairly low level of complaints.

The APA has done very little to promote the higher level pool player. As many have stated, they force you to generate a new team after reaching a certain skill level or quit. Where does this agree with the idea of a "social league"? It doesn't because the APA is about generating money first, not about the best interest of the game. That's the bottom line.

Well, let's be perfectly clear. It's a business. It IS about making money, like ALL BUSINESSES. A handful operate in the red because the owner really loves what he's doing or wants to donate his time and effort to some goal. But you cannot ask thousands of league operators to do this. It's perfectly fair if you want to do it on your own, but you don't have the right to expect that of other people.

The APA doesn't deny it favors the lower level players over the higher level. And their motives for that may indeed be profit. 90% of the people who play pool probably can't run 5 balls in a row consistently. You can't be profitable by favoring that other 10% at the expense of the 90%.

The side effect of favoring newbies is that more of them join leagues and get into pool. That is good for pool. Stuff like "this is bad for pool because purists don't like it and there's a backlash of complaints" is abstract. 250,000 members is real. It can be quantified. You cannot put sticks into the hands of 250K people and be bad for pool.

markpatrick
03-19-2010, 12:01 PM
Just to point out that not all APA areas operate the same as what YOU might be used to...

We won our Division playoffs last session. Our team split $800 between us. The second place team split $400 between them. $1200 in our division that session.

Multiply that by three sessions. $1200 x 3 = $3600

Multiply that by 2 (number of divisions our LO has) $3600 x 2 = $7200

Thats just here in little old backwoods Maine. In payouts for winning your Division session. BEFORE going to any Regionals. And our LO still sends I believe 5 teams to Vegas in the end.

So some actually DO make a little bit of scratch from playing in our league, and our LO does pay out a pretty fair amount. Certainly not to the level all your hot-shot players expect, not bad for a "fun" League.

Darn it, I guess he didn't see Rule Number 1, huh?

Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.

The only good think about league play is you get a team drink in most bars. Mo8 ball pays out each session and you have a chance to win 6000 every 4 months if you win your division or win your division playoffs.

Missouri 8 ball is a business just not under the cash cow model.

justadub
03-19-2010, 02:28 PM
Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.

The only good think about league play is you get a team drink in most bars. Mo8 ball pays out each session and you have a chance to win 6000 every 4 months if you win your division or win your division playoffs.



Two things... On your first point, it's a too bad YOUR league didn't have a payout at the end of the session.
So yes, when playing in your APA League, that does kinda suck. But as we have pointed out in this thread and many others, not all APA Leagues run the way yours did. I got paid my very first session in our League. I'm not BS-ing you. Thats the wway it runs here. Just like your Missouri league runs the way it does there.

We do have to play two sessions in order to play in the Vegas qualifier, which is consistent. But that has nothing to do with being paid for winning the session. And thats OK with me, too, because I joined the league to play.

Lastly, I never get any team drink! Dammit! The best I get is a slice of pizza one week out of the 16. How the heck did THAT happen? To me, of all people. Free drinks are the best drinks! :p

APA LO
03-19-2010, 02:36 PM
Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.

The only good think about league play is you get a team drink in most bars. Mo8 ball pays out each session and you have a chance to win 6000 every 4 months if you win your division or win your division playoffs.

Missouri 8 ball is a business just not under the cash cow model.

I'm really happy that you found a league that suits all of your wants and needs. But, let me ask you a serious question........

Why aren't you hanging out in a happy go lucky Missouri 8 Ball League thread instead of this APA bashing thread?

Is it because you'd rather complain about things you don't like rather than talk about things you do like?

Blackball75
03-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Lastly, I never get any team drink! Dammit!


I do, every week ;)

Blackball75
03-19-2010, 03:41 PM
I wonder if the APA will put on 10-ball leagues in the future?

APA Operator
03-19-2010, 03:50 PM
Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.

Just for clarification, the requirement to continue playing in the league or lose eligibility is an anti-sandbagging measure. I know, because I was part of the group that brought the requirement into existence. Without it, teams would qualify in Summer Session, then drop out and practice for eight months. The next we see of them is at the regional, where everybody on the team shoots a level or two higher than they were when they left and they run over their opponents.

By requiring the team to play with at least four original members, we get to monitor their improvement from the time they qualify to the time they play in the regional. It really has nothing to do with "getting their money for two more sessions". It's about doing everything we can to make sure the skill levels of players in the regional reflect those players' true abilities.

I can already imagine some of the replies I'll get to what I wrote above. Let me try to head some of them off at the pass...

"Just because they have to play, it doesn't mean they have to win. What's to keep them from losing all their matches in the subsequent sessions?" We took care of that in the rules too. If a qualified team fails to finish in the top half of their division in a subsequent session, the LO has the authority to take their qualification away. It's not automatic - we run a handicapped league, and theoretically a team could finish first one session and last the next. All we want is for our players/teams to give an honest effort every week. If the LO feels a team isn't giving an honest effort, he/she can take their qualification away.

"Only four original members have to play, so the other four could disappear and show up with greatly improved abilities nine months later." Not really. The Spring Session roster is the roster that plays in the regional, so anyone who isn't on the team (or doesn't play four times) in the Spring will not be eligible.

"So four players could take off Fall Session, then come back for Spring and just play the minimum four matches, not showing anything in those matches." This is true. However, guess who I'm focused on when I review skill levels for the regional? Who do you think are going to be the first ones I watch at the tournament?

It's a bit of a balancing act. You don't want to penalize honest players who have legitimate reasons for not being able to play often. On the other hand, you want to do whatever you can to make it hard for the cheaters to succeed.

Zims Rack
03-19-2010, 04:08 PM
When a player wants to improve their personal game (no mater the game), they practice and practice and practice.. right?

Well what if that person does not know what they are doing wrong or why he/she keeps missing the pocket or not get to the desired position for the next shot, would you recommend that he/she find someone to help them so that when they practice its the correct way?

Bad practice will result in negative outcomes, proper practice will result in positive outcomes!

Agree???

Then how is the APA benefiting the future of pool? Yes, they are getting players involved in the game (#s don't lie), but what kind of talent is there going to be in the regional tours, pro tours in 10-15 years when the current players are no longer playing? Currently the APA encourages bad practice ethics and has no reward for improving your game... ohh, wait, you get to form another team and make new friends and kiss your other friends goodbye!

Just a thought!
Zim

APA LO
03-19-2010, 04:26 PM
APA LO,

Does a player have to be on a regular APA 8 or 9 ball team in order to participate in the masters?

That's up to each individual LO from what I understand. Contact your LO to find out if they offer the format and what their roster requirements are.

justadub
03-19-2010, 05:39 PM
When a player wants to improve their personal game (no mater the game), they practice and practice and practice.. right?

Well what if that person does not know what they are doing wrong or why he/she keeps missing the pocket or not get to the desired position for the next shot, would you recommend that he/she find someone to help them so that when they practice its the correct way?

Bad practice will result in negative outcomes, proper practice will result in positive outcomes!

Agree???

Then how is the APA benefiting the future of pool? Yes, they are getting players involved in the game (#s don't lie), but what kind of talent is there going to be in the regional tours, pro tours in 10-15 years when the current players are no longer playing? Currently the APA encourages bad practice ethics and has no reward for improving your game... ohh, wait, you get to form another team and make new friends and kiss your other friends goodbye!

Just a thought!
Zim
http://forums.azbilliards.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
Before you worry about the demise of competitive pool, and it being all the APA's fault, just stop.... take a deep breath.... and look around. Not everyone has the desire, energy, available time and/or money, or skill to become a "really good player". Since "really good players" wouldn't lower themselves to APA league play, of course...

That having been said, anyone who wants to get better is going to get better. That is a drive that comes from within. No amount of sandbagging or griping about rules will stop that. It just won't happen. Players want to play, and they want to beat people.

Those who play the system obviously aren't interested in that, they are interested in getting away with something, or pulling a fast one. A "hustle", if you will. They get their jollies from being able to say they won, not in being able to beat someone.

Those who don't try to improve so they can stay under the 23 rule have no honor, and no life to speak of. Why would you worry about them ever improving enough to play at "your level", with the big boys?

On the other hand, there are A LOT of casual players. They aren't interested in driving themselves to be able to beat everyone, and that should be OK. And it doesn't signal doom and gloom for competitive pool in coming years.

It seems that the major theme behind these APA bashing threads is that a group of 4 or 5 friends who all play at a high level can't play APA, and they're mad as hell about it. "Change the system for us, dammit!" If you guys are all so darned good, why are you playing League anyway? "Haven't you heard? Good players don't play League. And those that do won't ever try to improve, they all want to keep their handicaps down."

Bull. I'm trying to improve, every week. I still suck, but I wasn't bummed out when I went from a 3 to a 4 this past week. It makes our team have to scramble now, but we'll be fine. I want to play better. I know I'm not the only one, either.

Poolhalljunkie
03-19-2010, 06:09 PM
I am new to the APA, our league just started this year, i am so far enjoying it in eightball I have had a pretty good run, I am rated a 7 I know this is a little inflated, due to the lack of competition we only have 6 eightball teams and 4 nineball teams.
I like the nineball scoring, it forces me to out play my opponent every game. I would like to be able to play for a qualifier, but due to our small size we are told that we cannot hold one or go to another area and play, I feel that if i am an APA member I should be able to go to any APA affiliated, (singles) event no matter where it is held, and play.
I also don't like the fact my wife and I cannot play in scotch doubles as a team ,as we would be above the 10 point cutoff.

If any of what I am saying is wrong than I would appreciate help in finding out how to get the correct info.

APA LO
03-19-2010, 07:34 PM
I am new to the APA, our league just started this year, i am so far enjoying it in eightball I have had a pretty good run, I am rated a 7 I know this is a little inflated, due to the lack of competition we only have 6 eightball teams and 4 nineball teams.
I like the nineball scoring, it forces me to out play my opponent every game. I would like to be able to play for a qualifier, but due to our small size we are told that we cannot hold one or go to another area and play, I feel that if i am an APA member I should be able to go to any APA affiliated, (singles) event no matter where it is held, and play.
I also don't like the fact my wife and I cannot play in scotch doubles as a team ,as we would be above the 10 point cutoff.

If any of what I am saying is wrong than I would appreciate help in finding out how to get the correct info.

636-625-8611 is the number to the APA National Office. Players travel where they must to compete in Regional events. APA coordinates events based on the amount of participation in certain areas and then sets up Regional sites. While it may be true that you can't hold one yet, you can certainly be sent to another area to compete in one. It's not as easy as just showing up wherever you wish, however. APA can walk you through this better than I can, so feel free to call them and ask to speak to someone in the tournament department about Single's Regionals.

Of course, you also have to qualify locally on a Single's Qualifier Board before you can be invited to compete in the next round.

If you are still new to the APA, it's possible your handicap isn't fully established yet. Maybe as your and your wife's skill level settle in, you will be able to compete in a Scotch Doubles Tournament with the handicap limit of 10. But, if you can't, find a new partner. Chances are good you would have been sleeping on the couch teaming up with your wife anyway. The first time you hook her on a ball, sorry honey probably won't be good enough.:cool:

markpatrick
03-19-2010, 08:37 PM
[QUOTE=justadub;2329479]http://forums.azbilliards.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
Good point Zim.

I find it is not all about the Benjarmins for the LO s and Terry and Larry.

Yeah I will expose my tax records if Terry and Larry do.

NO PROBLEM>

You see I was an automated robotic welding and assembly maintenance manager pulling down 6 figures, not 7 or 8 for shaking hands with league members in Vegas once a year.

overtaker
03-19-2010, 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=justadub;2329479]http://forums.azbilliards.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
Good point Zim.

I find it is not all about the Benjarmins for the LO s and Terry and Larry.

Yeah I will expose my tax records if Terry and Larry do.

NO PROBLEM>

You see I was an automated robotic welding and assembly maintenance manager pulling down 6 figures, not 7 or 8 for shaking hands with league members in Vegas once a year.



I don't believe anyone cares about your tax records or the tax records of the APA. Their tax records are made public each year.

And I am sure that the Zim league is just so great, only he could develop a fair handicap system, what a joke.

Just play in your own little world and whine with the rest of the cry babies on here.

I have played in the APA and the BCA and with the great cash tournaments and events have made a lot more money in the APA

Currently play in BCA as well and the same two or three teams always
win each session and win at the little final tournament.

Yes even last place gets a few cents back each session, what a joke

Would be better if only the top two or three won all the money, oh yeah
I forgot, that won't work because the same teams win everytime. But how can that be since the BCA has such a great handicap system.

Well, I will let you chronic *****ers worry about it and I am sure that
your great minds will figure out whats best for pool, lol


If you don't like something just don't play. Get a life

poolhustla61508
03-20-2010, 02:49 AM
The only problem I have and this could possibly go for all handicap leagues. I've been too vegas 3-4 times now and there is a huge difference in the level of play from an apa 4 from one area compared to another. This could possibly be the same for bca but I've never been for that so I don't know.

I can understand there being a big difference in the level of 7's but the low to mid ranked players should be close. I just want to understand how this is, I know some area's have more people which makes the league bigger but even if you took the biggest league and the smallest, IF the system worked then the players should be close in skill level.

I'm not bashing either league here I just want some help understanding here......Also maybe if the leagues were switched to big tables it might help with handicaps instead of playing on bar boxes with pockets big enough to drive a mack truck through.....:)

Tillman345
03-20-2010, 04:00 AM
Ok, I read this and had to stop at page 5. I am going to be another to put my .02 in. I have played both leagues and here is the summation. APA is for peopel that want to have fun playing pool while the BCA is a league for people that want to compete. That is why the APA is larger, because there are more people that suck at pool and than the other end of the spectrum. They have to salvage there pride so why would they play in a league they have no chance in winning a single game. As far as payouts go, who cares. Noone is getting rich playing in either league. My opinion, APA sucks ass. But that is me. I will never play in one again. The rules are what do it for me. Dumbest shit I have ever heard in my life. "I lost the game because I was scratching my left nut, closing my right eye and standing on 1 foot while I shot. Damn it!!!" Sorry, they may have the numbers but the BCA if by far, hands down, no doubt about a better league for people who want to play pool. PERIOD.

Tony_in_MD
03-20-2010, 05:04 AM
The problem, as I understand it, is that the skill levels for players are based upon the League Operators region. That being said there can be a huge difference between 4's from let's say Chicago and 4's from another area of the country.

Until APA skill levels are adjusted and set nationally, this difference in level of play will continue to exist.








The only problem I have and this could possibly go for all handicap leagues. I've been too vegas 3-4 times now and there is a huge difference in the level of play from an apa 4 from one area compared to another. This could possibly be the same for bca but I've never been for that so I don't know.

I can understand there being a big difference in the level of 7's but the low to mid ranked players should be close. I just want to understand how this is, I know some area's have more people which makes the league bigger but even if you took the biggest league and the smallest, IF the system worked then the players should be close in skill level.

I'm not bashing either league here I just want some help understanding here......Also maybe if the leagues were switched to big tables it might help with handicaps instead of playing on bar boxes with pockets big enough to drive a mack truck through.....:)

Zims Rack
03-20-2010, 05:17 AM
[QUOTE=markpatrick;2329650]
And I am sure that the Zim league is just so great, only he could develop a fair handicap system, what a joke.

Currently play in BCA as well and the same two or three teams always
win each session and win at the little final tournament.

Yes even last place gets a few cents back each session, what a joke
Would be better if only the top two or three won all the money, oh yeah
I forgot, that won't work because the same teams win everytime. But how can that be since the BCA has such a great handicap system.

Well, I will let you chronic *****ers worry about it and I am sure that
your great minds will figure out whats best for pool, lol
If you don't like something just don't play. Get a life

Well, the past few years about 40% of our teams have a shot at 1st place with only 1 match left in the session, our MVP race comes down to the last night of league as well. ALL teams receive a payout in our league and we payback 84%, 72% if you count the qtrs for table time!

1st- 4th place is usually seperated by less than 15 balls... less than 2 racks! One division the top 5 were seperated by .8... less than 1 ball... is that a close race for 1st, does that even the playing field... #s don't lie!

Zim

APA LO
03-20-2010, 10:07 AM
Another Bone I have to pick with APA is the secret handicap system. At least in BCA everything is out in the open and anyone can do the math.

I can't believe I missed this one previously. Not everything in the BCA is out in the open, Mr. Banger. The following is an exact quote from Mark Griffin's handicapped pool league rules:

"Player ratings are determined by a proprietary formula. The formula tracks several factors of each player's record of performance within the league. To prevent any possibility of manipulation of ratings by players, the formula is not, and will not, be published."

This post isn't meant to make you look bad, Mr. Banger. Only to point out once again that perception and/or opinion is not FACT!

APA LO
03-20-2010, 10:19 AM
The problem, as I understand it, is that the skill levels for players are based upon the League Operators region. That being said there can be a huge difference between 4's from let's say Chicago and 4's from another area of the country.

Until APA skill levels are adjusted and set nationally, this difference in level of play will continue to exist.

We do not operate on a different scoring system based on what region we play in. There will probably always be a perception that 4's from one part of the country are better than 4's in another. Some people who lose a match never wish to say they just lost the match. They like to make excuses for why they lost the match, and the easiest one and the most beaten to death excuse on the planet is that the other player was not rated properly.

In my own league area, a skill level 4 can beat another skill level 4 by a score of 3-0. Does that mean that one skill level 4 is way better than the other one or someone isn't rated properly? Should it be assumed that the handicap system doesn't work because one 4 won their match 3-0 over another 4? Not at all.

Players from all over the country win mini tournaments at the National event in Las Vegas in all skill level tiers besides also winning individual matches in the National Team and Singles Championships.

That's not to say that people aren't attempting to manipulate skill levels. APA kicks them out of the tournaments and the league if they are caught.

APA Operator
03-20-2010, 02:37 PM
The problem, as I understand it, is that the skill levels for players are based upon the League Operators region. That being said there can be a huge difference between 4's from let's say Chicago and 4's from another area of the country.

Until APA skill levels are adjusted and set nationally, this difference in level of play will continue to exist.

This is a polular misconception. Some competing leagues will propagate the misconception as a selling point for their own league. Let me show you why they're wrong.

Take any handicapped league with a computerized handicap calculation. Matches are played and recorded on scoresheets. Those scoresheets go somewhere and data is input into a computer. The computer program spits out new handicaps. Let's call this part the "baseline". If this is all that is done, it doesn't really matter where that computer is or who is inputting the data, right?

Most systems, though, provide the ability for manual adjustment. After all, it's not possible for a computer to get it right 100% of the time, is it? If it is, then it would be possible to cheat with impunity. A computer can be fooled repeatedly, but eventually a human learns.

So, the difference now is in the manual adjustments and who is making them. Those with a "central" system will argue that their system is better because it removes bias - the same people are doing the adjustments for everyone, and they are doing them the same every time. That sounds good, doesn't it? Look a little closer - if they are done the same every time, why not just teach the computer to do them? Just put it in the baseline, and once again it doesn't matter whether it's centralized or not.

The only way manual adjustments can be useful (or even necessary) is if they can be (and are) treated differently on a case-by-case basis. You need knowledge that can't be programmed into a computer. Who has that knowledge, or is best-equipped to get it? That's right, the local guy.

If skill level differences exist between different APA areas, it only means the local knowledge isn't being put to use. However, even if that is the case, it is worse in any centralized system, where local knowledge can't be used anywhere!

Any operator worth his salt will make use of every tool and every source to make sure handicaps in his area are accurate. That applies to any system. So, if there's a handicap problem, it's a problem with the operator, not the system.

Worst_7_ever
03-20-2010, 08:30 PM
...........................

APA Operator
03-20-2010, 11:05 PM
Biggest league in America the LO makes 7 figures...thats right over 1 mill. How do i know that? The APA home office told my good friend (who happens to have just bought a franchise here last year) when they had him down in St Louis. I guess they were really trying to show him the upside of the buisness. The area in question is in the Maryland area I believe.
Wow, imagine all the customers he has to keep happy to generate an income like that! Oh wait, that's not income, it's revenue. Now would be a good time to do some of that math. Subtract taxes, royalties, an office staff of 14 (complete with medical plan, 401k plan, and social security taxes), a fleet of couriers, lease on office space, office equipment, a whole network of computers to maintain, the list goes on and on.

So how much does he really make (not that it's any of your business)? He's been an APA operator for over 20 years, and has built a five-figure customer list by working his tail off to provide a good product and excellent service. If you think it's an easy way to get rich, give it a try. Or maybe you could just talk to your good friend. I'm sure he's been able to just sit back and "raise and split" his way to an obscene income too.

overtaker
03-20-2010, 11:16 PM
Ok, I read this and had to stop at page 5. I am going to be another to put my .02 in. I have played both leagues and here is the summation. APA is for peopel that want to have fun playing pool while the BCA is a league for people that want to compete. That is why the APA is larger, because there are more people that suck at pool and than the other end of the spectrum. They have to salvage there pride so why would they play in a league they have no chance in winning a single game. As far as payouts go, who cares. Noone is getting rich playing in either league. My opinion, APA sucks ass. But that is me. I will never play in one again. The rules are what do it for me. Dumbest shit I have ever heard in my life. "I lost the game because I was scratching my left nut, closing my right eye and standing on 1 foot while I shot. Damn it!!!" Sorry, they may have the numbers but the BCA if by far, hands down, no doubt about a better league for people who want to play pool. PERIOD.




I play both leagues, I was just wondering exactly what specific rule do you not like in the APA. BCA has some whacky rules that don't make sense. Example. Player scratches on 8 and doesn't lose. duh stupid rule

Player makes 8 on the break and doesn't win, dumb rule

I hear people proudly proclaiming that they don't take a slop shot in the BCA. Week after week I watch players lucking the ball in. Oh yeah it went in the pocket they called but it went two extra rails and hit three balls before it went in. But I guess that's not a slop shot.

The only reason the strong players like the BCA is that a really good player
can destroy all the weaklings in the bca each week. with being able to shoot either set after the break and other rules that only favor the advanced player. Another reason you like it so much is that you don't have to ever win anything to play in the nationals, but of course you have to fund your trip yourself. The tiny winnings from the little divisions BCA has won't get you a bus ticket to the next town.

If anyone can put a team together and go it's not a real national championship. I guess we should all just show up at the next Summer Olympics and sign up for our favorite event. And when we win at the bca nationals we don't win anything. 11 g's for first place split 10 ways after we have paid our own way and that's for first place. Of course thats because it's all based on your paid entries with nothing added. What a joke.

As usual the strong player always wants everyone else to cater to him
and to hell with anyone else. he knows it all and is so darn good. The pool room should pay him to come in. The fact is the stronger players won't spend much of their money on league night, eat before they come and still think the establishment should bend over backwards for them.

come on you can tell us the truth, you won't play in the Real League anymore because they won't let you. your kind gives real pool players a bad name. just my 2 cents, lol

Worst_7_ever
03-21-2010, 03:40 AM
...................................

TimKrazyMon
03-21-2010, 05:12 AM
Wow, imagine all the customers he has to keep happy to generate an income like that! Oh wait, that's not income, it's revenue. Now would be a good time to do some of that math. Subtract taxes, royalties, an office staff of 14 (complete with medical plan, 401k plan, and social security taxes), a fleet of couriers, lease on office space, office equipment, a whole network of computers to maintain, the list goes on and on.

So how much does he really make (not that it's any of your business)? He's been an APA operator for over 20 years, and has built a five-figure customer list by working his tail off to provide a good product and excellent service. If you think it's an easy way to get rich, give it a try. Or maybe you could just talk to your good friend. I'm sure he's been able to just sit back and "raise and split" his way to an obscene income too.

Are youe even trying to be serious? Terry & Valerie own every county in Maryland except 4. Even with those expenses, they're still more than likely clearing 7 figures. Are you trying to say that you could own most of metropolitan Maryland and not print money?

Ball Banger
03-21-2010, 05:32 AM
I play both leagues, I was just wondering exactly what specific rule do you not like in the APA. BCA has some whacky rules that don't make sense. Example. Player scratches on 8 and doesn't lose. duh stupid rule

Player makes 8 on the break and doesn't win, dumb rule
I hear people proudly proclaiming that they don't take a slop shot in the BCA. Week after week I watch players lucking the ball in. Oh yeah it went in the pocket they called but it went two extra rails and hit three balls before it went in. But I guess that's not a slop shot.

The only reason the strong players like the BCA is that a really good player
can destroy all the weaklings in the bca each week. with being able to shoot either set after the break and other rules that only favor the advanced player. Another reason you like it so much is that you don't have to ever win anything to play in the nationals, but of course you have to fund your trip yourself. The tiny winnings from the little divisions BCA has won't get you a bus ticket to the next town.

If anyone can put a team together and go it's not a real national championship. I guess we should all just show up at the next Summer Olympics and sign up for our favorite event. And when we win at the bca nationals we don't win anything. 11 g's for first place split 10 ways after we have paid our own way and that's for first place. Of course thats because it's all based on your paid entries with nothing added. What a joke.

As usual the strong player always wants everyone else to cater to him
and to hell with anyone else. he knows it all and is so darn good. The pool room should pay him to come in. The fact is the stronger players won't spend much of their money on league night, eat before they come and still think the establishment should bend over backwards for them.

come on you can tell us the truth, you won't play in the Real League anymore because they won't let you. your kind gives real pool players a bad name. just my 2 cents, lol


Overtaker

You make a great point about all the league rules being watered down. One that burns my butt is the Table run rule that doesn't take into account when 7 of the opponent's balls are gone. Just that a person sinks 8 balls in a row.

Bring Back 8 Ball Bar Rules and old fashion 9 ball before Texas Express. Make the girls shoot spot shots and no ball in hand. Shoot real pool and not the slop rules of our cry baby political correct society.

CreeDo
03-21-2010, 08:06 AM
Shoot real pool and not the slop rules of our cry baby political correct society.

Which one is more like "real" pool, and which one is a very "sissy" way to win?

A: You win by sinking every stripe or solid, then sink the 8

B: You get a free automatic win for sitting on your ass and doing nothing cuz the other guy scratched on one shot. Or you get an automatic free win a lucky roll on your break, without making a single called shot.

-------

You don't see the contradiction in logic here?

"They don't count my running those 7 balls, they only count his win. That's unfair!"
vs.
"Hey, he scratched on the 8! Nevermind that he ran 7 balls before that, he should lose! I shouldn't have to make balls to win!"

Surely someone who is manly enough to want "real pool" can handle running 8 balls with ball in hand on a wide open table.

PS to worst_7: Gosh, I wonder why he thought you were attacking him? In a thread full of people claiming APA LO's rip people off and get rich at the players expense, you post something about how an APA LO somewhere is getting 7-figures rich. Derka Der!

Tony_in_MD
03-21-2010, 09:46 AM
APA LO and APA Operator brought some good points to this discussion.

True, that a LO that should use all of the information available to them in tweaking the H.C. of players in his league. From what I remember that is what local handicap meetings are supposed to do. Probably some do some don't. Also sometimes those local handicap reviews are not the best thing to do, if there no people on it that had experience playing other players from outside their own watering hole.

True that players from all parts of the country can and do win tourneys at the national level. This though is not definitive proof that there cannot be skill level differences from one APA region to another. Anyone can get hot during a tourney.

However what was still not answered is; are the skill levels for APA determined at a national level using the data from all of the LO's systems?

Lets look at a hypothetical... I start a region 100 players, all of those players in my region have intermediate to advanced skills (lets say from APA 5-7 in 8 ball)

The play and pound on each other exclusively in my league, how would there handicaps filter out.

I think the very best of them would be 7's and the worst of them would become 3's based on the fact that the population I have is a small sample that is not normally distributed.

The point of my assumpion is that you need a large sample size and a normally distributed group of players for the skill levels to be assigned correctly.

I only bring this up because I would still like to believe this is a more valid explanation for skill level differences then the old sandbagging excuse. I would like to think that 99 percent of the players in a handicapped league are honest and enjoy the competition for what it is, and not try to gain the system for their own personal and team benefit.

Please don't think I am bashing the APA, I have played in APA for 10 years, and TAP for 3 years. When I left APA I was a 7 in eight ball and a 8 in nine-ball. I was very supportive of the APA when I played, and I still am, though there are still aspects of it that I do not agree with. I will keep those to myself as they have no point in this discussion. I have stopped playing all handicapped leagues, not because of my problems with player handicaps, just that it was time for me to move on.

rope_one
03-21-2010, 10:43 AM
Tony,

From a statistical analysis point of view, I would think having a normal population or large/small population size will make no difference in ranking players, since it appears the number of innings to win matters more than how often you win. So by that logic if I am averaging 2 inning per game when I win, and that makes me some skill level, what difference does it make if I don't always do it? Unless as in your example I am a 5 in a very stong league and I just never win. So I doubt that the small vs large market makes that much difference.

jason
03-21-2010, 10:55 AM
Let me get this straight, the president of the BCA is posting in an APA thread falsehoods about the APA and I'm the guilty one?

Consider me guilty as charged, I suppose. :confused:

Again, what falsehoods do you speak of? The 20% local payout? My experience with the APA proves this to be accurate.

APA Operator
03-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Wow...your an angry LO. All I was saying was what he was told...did I say, or even imply that making money was a bad thing? You really need to try decafe. The APA is a good buisness, and fun for me as I have been to 9 nationals - 6 for 8 ball, 2 for 9 ball, and one for singles. But it also alot of what others have said as well.....every league has both upsides and downsides, thats just the way it is. I would love to see some of the rules change, but I am not gonna stop playing just because the local level here doesnt payout actual cash. I enjoy the "long haul" of trying to get to vegas.

It seems to me that your on auto pilot when it comes to defending everything APA...they really got you to drink the Kool aid. Spend less time blindly arguing your points here, and get back to work, or practicing some 8 ball. The one thing I have noticed about APA LO in general, and thats that they SUCK at the pool table themselves. You know the old saying, those that can do, and those that can't run APA leagues.:wink:

I use that saying myself sometimes. Except with me, it's usually "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys ed. Those who can't teach phys ed, run leagues." And you're right, I can't play a lick. You could probably spot me the 5 out and still kick my butt.

I'm not angry at all. I'm just telling "the rest of the story." You want to post how much you've been told a guy makes, and claim that you have no agenda, then attack me when I post that it's really not as much as you think, and that he's spent over 20 years building his business and deserves whatever he makes. Sounds like an agenda to me. Then, of course (and dare I say expected?), you have to resort to the old "you suck at pool", as if that somehow is relevant to anything. I guess my retort should be "well, my dad can beat up your dad." So there, top that!

LeagueGuy
03-21-2010, 12:00 PM
Again, what falsehoods do you speak of? The 20% local payout? My experience with the APA proves this to be accurate.

My history with the APA in my area and my math shills in all the surrounding areas prove that to be false.

The point that APALO was tring to make is that you cant just make up numbers and put them out as fact. They may in fact be true in 1 or 2 areas but as money others as posted on here it is certainly not true in the majority of areas.

Mr. Griffin, as the head of a legitimate pool organization, should not be spreading rumors about the APA and what is worse, he is not only spreading them he is then calling them facts. THAT MY FELLOW AZ BILLIARDS POSTERS AMOUNTS TO BLATANT LIES AND MISREPRESENTATIONS.

As another poster pointed out earlier, maybe the only way for the BCA to gain market share is not by offering a better product, but by slandering the competition. I for one can see right through that and anyone else that has a brain should be able to see it as well.

irackalot
03-21-2010, 12:18 PM
I've been keeping up with this thread for 2-3 days and I've seen a lot of the other APA bashing threads out there as well. Here's my take.

As far as the % of payouts locally and nationally for each league. First off, nobody except the LO's really know exactly what is taken in and payed out and secondly, who really gives a damn. If you think it's not enough then don't play. It's that simple. Personally, I play leagues for the night out and for some friendly competition.

I play both APA and BCA. I really get tired of seeing some the more arrogant posters on here talking about how "real" pool players only play BCA and everyone in APA is just some banger with no clue. While it's true that there are a lot of beginners and bad players in APA there are also quite a few really good players as well. Just go to Vegas and play in some of the $50 mini tournaments and try them out.

Actually, I feel like I get challenged more in the APA league I play in than I do in BCA. My experience with BCA is that there are 2 or 3 teams that just dominate the rest of the league every session. To me, it's not fun pounding some other team 25-0 with 3 or 4 chances at the table every game. It's harder to win consistently in APA because of the handicap and yes the rules are slanted to the lower ranked players. But if all of the bashers are as good as they say they are that shouldn't be a problem. Right?

I enjoy playing in both leagues. I just get tired of seeing people whining about payouts, handicaps, and rules of a league that obviously is doing something right or they wouldn't have more members than any other league. I'm not saying the APA is perfect and I like all of the rules(ex. 23 rule) but I think for as big of an organization as it is they do a pretty good job.

M

APA Operator
03-21-2010, 12:25 PM
Are youe even trying to be serious? Terry & Valerie own every county in Maryland except 4. Even with those expenses, they're still more than likely clearing 7 figures. Are you trying to say that you could own most of metropolitan Maryland and not print money?

I'm pretty sure they're not. They're about 7 times my size, we have similar fee structures, and I don't even clear six figures (not even close). I don't have an office staff or many of the expenses they have, so to think that they can make 7 times my income is naive.

It's your last sentence that I find most interesting. I actually do like to think that if I had their area I could have their success. But that's after 15 years in the business. I know how hard it is, but I think I could do it.

HOWEVER, if you think they are "printing money", then I'd be willing to bet that YOU couldn't do it.

We see that attitude all the time, people who think there's nothing to it. After all, how hard can it be to run a league? It's actually not that hard at all, if you want to run ONE division with ten or twelve teams. But try growing it to the point where you can make a living at it, then come back and tell us all how much money you're printing.

justadub
03-21-2010, 02:42 PM
It's my guess that most of the folks who believe that the APA LO's can print money, or make 7 figures, have never run a business themselves. Again, it's simply a guess. But I run a business. I see the Profit and Loss statements, and the Expense Summaries. I understand that there are lots and lots of expenses that the average joe wouldn't expect or anticipate.

That is why you won't catch me begrudging a successful LO making a good living. It isn't easy. Running any kind of business successfully isn't easy, and if you are indeed successful, the you deserve to be compensated for it.

TimKrazyMon
03-21-2010, 02:49 PM
I'm pretty sure they're not. They're about 7 times my size, we have similar fee structures, and I don't even clear six figures (not even close). I don't have an office staff or many of the expenses they have, so to think that they can make 7 times my income is naive.

It's your last sentence that I find most interesting. I actually do like to think that if I had their area I could have their success. But that's after 15 years in the business. I know how hard it is, but I think I could do it.

HOWEVER, if you think they are "printing money", then I'd be willing to bet that YOU couldn't do it.

We see that attitude all the time, people who think there's nothing to it. After all, how hard can it be to run a league? It's actually not that hard at all, if you want to run ONE division with ten or twelve teams. But try growing it to the point where you can make a living at it, then come back and tell us all how much money you're printing.

I used to live up in Maryland, so I know that territory very well. Hell, in Baltimore there's practically a bar with a pool table on every other block. Yes, I am aware exactly how much work goes into growing a league, be it APA, BCA, VNEA, etc. So yes, I think if they're not clearing 7 figs, I could.

Worst_7_ever
03-21-2010, 08:22 PM
I use that saying myself sometimes. Except with me, it's usually "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys ed. Those who can't teach phys ed, run leagues." And you're right, I can't play a lick. You could probably spot me the 5 out and still kick my butt.

I'm not angry at all. I'm just telling "the rest of the story." You want to post how much you've been told a guy makes, and claim that you have no agenda, then attack me when I post that it's really not as much as you think, and that he's spent over 20 years building his business and deserves whatever he makes. Sounds like an agenda to me. Then, of course (and dare I say expected?), you have to resort to the old "you suck at pool", as if that somehow is relevant to anything. I guess my retort should be "well, my dad can beat up your dad." So there, top that!

.............................

Scott Lee
03-21-2010, 09:53 PM
Worst_7_ever...In the first place, the national office would only know what the GROSS figure for Terry Justice is...not the net (and they only "might" know that, based on the royalty paid to the national office). That "employee" you speak of would have no idea what Terry puts out in local prize money (hundreds of thousands every year), and they would have NO idea what his annual expenses are, which as already mentioned, are very likely far and above what anyone outside of an APA LO would know about. Terry has been the most successful L.O. in the history of the APA...and that says a lot. You HAVE to keep the players happy or they will leave. When I was in APA nearly 20 years ago, Terry had 1100 teams then. I know he has more now, and has sold off several league areas to others. As for him "clearing" 7 figures...I sincerely doubt it...possibly grossing that much, but his net would be nowhere near a million dollars a year. Even if it was, imo, he deserves it. It's a tough job, and you have to love it (just like any successful business). I'm a successful businessman too, but I spend 200 days a year, on the road, away from my home, to do it. Obviously I like what I do too, or I wouldn't do it, just for the $$$.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As for my comments about the Maryland LO who makes 7 figures...well thats what was told to me by my friend who just bought a area around here. That was told to him directly by an employee of the APA nationals office. I simply stated what I had heard, I did not say it with any agenda, as its clear from my posts, and the post I responded to, that I have none.

APA Operator
03-21-2010, 10:36 PM
First off, I want to say "I am sorry" I thought I was replying to post by APA LO. I didnt even realize you were a different poster all together. For THAT I am sorry. As for my comments about the Maryland LO who makes 7 figures...well thats what was told to me by my friend who just bought a area around here. That was told to him directly by an employee of the APA nationals office. I simply stated what I had heard, I did not say it with any agenda, as its clear from my posts, and the post I responded to, that I have none. If you had taken the time to actually read the post I responded to, you probably would have realized that. As for attacking you...well if you think that was an attack, then your waaaaaaaaaaay to thin skinned. But regardless of that I do think your blind defemse of anything APA is a little stupid. As I said in my last post, every league has its own issues, and the APA has many. You were correct about the saying being altered, but i did that as a joke...even if its really true. Also, i would enjoy it if your dad beat up mine as he was a real dead beat, and left my mom with two kids under 1 years old. Again, I would suggest decafe
I don't see how you could say I'm blindly defending everything APA. This makes nine or ten posts for me in this thread, and in exactly ONE of them I defended something specific to APA (the requirement for qualified teams to continue playing subsequent sessions). That one was even more of an explanation than a "blind defense". Some were handicapping systems in general. In this particular chain, yes, I am defending a guy who put his nose to the grindstone, lived on mac & cheese for years, and built himself a pretty good business. He happens to be an APA operator, but that's actually irrelevant. You say you weren't implying anything when you made your seven figures comment, but that's not the way it read. I'm not the only one who read it that way - look at the PS at the bottom of CreeDo's reply above.

I don't have a retort for your dead beat dad, so I guess you got me there. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept "I'm rubber and you're glue..."! :nanner:

overtaker
03-21-2010, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Worst_7_ever
Biggest league in America the LO makes 7 figures...thats right over 1 mill. How do i know that? The APA home office told my good friend (who happens to have just bought a franchise here last year) when they had him down in St Louis. I guess they were really trying to show him the upside of the buisness. The area in question is in the Maryland area I believe.




Wow...your an angry LO. All I was saying was what he was told...did I say, or even imply that making money was a bad thing? You really need to try decafe. The APA is a good buisness, and fun for me as I have been to 9 nationals - 6 for 8 ball, 2 for 9 ball, and one for singles. But it also alot of what others have said as well.....every league has both upsides and downsides, thats just the way it is. I would love to see some of the rules change, but I am not gonna stop playing just because the local level here doesnt payout actual cash. I enjoy the "long haul" of trying to get to vegas.

It seems to me that your on auto pilot when it comes to defending everything APA...they really got you to drink the Kool aid. Spend less time blindly arguing your points here, and get back to work, or practicing some 8 ball. The one thing I have noticed about APA LO in general, and thats that they SUCK at the pool table themselves. You know the old saying, those that can do, and those that can't run APA leagues.:wink:

You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to
having league operators that can't play pool. There are many of them
that would smoke your ass from dusk till dawn. The one you know might not play so you keep living in your dream world. If you need a game just let me know and I will be happy to hook you up.

Worst_7_ever
03-22-2010, 01:33 AM
You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to
having league operators that can't play pool. There are many of them
that would smoke your ass from dusk till dawn. The one you know might not play so you keep living in your dream world. If you need a game just let me know and I will be happy to hook you up.

................................

Worst_7_ever
03-22-2010, 01:36 AM
I don't see how you could say I'm blindly defending everything APA. This makes nine or ten posts for me in this thread, and in exactly ONE of them I defended something specific to APA (the requirement for qualified teams to continue playing subsequent sessions). That one was even more of an explanation than a "blind defense". Some were handicapping systems in general. In this particular chain, yes, I am defending a guy who put his nose to the grindstone, lived on mac & cheese for years, and built himself a pretty good business. He happens to be an APA operator, but that's actually irrelevant. You say you weren't implying anything when you made your seven figures comment, but that's not the way it read. I'm not the only one who read it that way - look at the PS at the bottom of CreeDo's reply above.

I don't have a retort for your dead beat dad, so I guess you got me there. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept "I'm rubber and you're glue..."! :nanner:

and the way your reply read to me was that you were upset, and wanted to make a point..thats how it seemed to me. As I told you in my second response..I enjoy playing in the APA. Just because I don't like all there rules doesnt mean i don't play in it.

Worst_7_ever
03-22-2010, 01:39 AM
Worst_7_ever...In the first place, the national office would only know what the GROSS figure for Terry Justice is...not the net (and they only "might" know that, based on the royalty paid to the national office). That "employee" you speak of would have no idea what Terry puts out in local prize money (hundreds of thousands every year), and they would have NO idea what his annual expenses are, which as already mentioned, are very likely far and above what anyone outside of an APA LO would know about. Terry has been the most successful L.O. in the history of the APA...and that says a lot. You HAVE to keep the players happy or they will leave. When I was in APA nearly 20 years ago, Terry had 1100 teams then. I know he has more now, and has sold off several league areas to others. As for him "clearing" 7 figures...I sincerely doubt it...possibly grossing that much, but his net would be nowhere near a million dollars a year. Even if it was, imo, he deserves it. It's a tough job, and you have to love it (just like any successful business). I'm a successful businessman too, but I spend 200 days a year, on the road, away from my home, to do it. Obviously I like what I do too, or I wouldn't do it, just for the $$$.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

................................

markpatrick
03-22-2010, 04:20 AM
I used to live up in Maryland, so I know that territory very well. Hell, in Baltimore there's practically a bar with a pool table on every other block. Yes, I am aware exactly how much work goes into growing a league, be it APA, BCA, VNEA, etc. So yes, I think if they're not clearing 7 figs, I could.

Sitting back in the lap of luxury, waiting for the dough to come running in every week from all areas of the country, seldom making an appearance and all the while on the APA payroll. 7 figures, if league operators are making 7 figures they might be making 8 figures by now.:eek::eek:

Money that could go BACK to the players. I mean how much money do you need to die with anyway.

LeagueGuy
03-22-2010, 06:22 AM
Sitting back in the lap of luxury, waiting for the dough to come running in every week from all areas of the country, seldom making an appearance and all the while on the APA payroll. 7 figures, if league operators are making 7 figures they might be making 8 figures by now.:eek::eek:

Money that could go BACK to the players. I mean how much money do you need to die with anyway.

Another poster who thinks that they know everything. Have you been reading the replies from people who actually might have an idea about the income of a L.O. I would trust that APA LO, APA operator and Scott Lee might have a little bit more insight into it than you.

And while we are generalizing about APA League Operators, why don't we generalize about your type.

You
never want to pay for a table - and yet complain about which free table you get.
spend hours practicing jumping on this free table and then complain the cloth is wearing out.
complain that the tournament you enter has no (or not enough) money added but the don't spend a dime at the pool hall
Complain about the service from the bar becuase your free glass of water takes a few minutes to arrive
I could go on and on becuase i know your type.

Instead of jumping all over those who support the game (and yes, some may make a living off it as well), try supporting the game yourself and the locations that host the game. What the game needs is more APA operators and more Scott Lee's and al ot less of you cheap -------- who only want to take and take and take and give nothing back. The game would be a lot better off without you in it.

Total_Chaos13
03-22-2010, 07:33 AM
This is exactly why you should contact your league operator before attempting to do the math. If you don't have all the information, it's a futile effort that will leave all of us wondering what is missing.

I'm going to break your reply up so make answering easier. I'm just throwing out numbers from what i see at my local apa region. The Op stated that 20% payout for apa and I was trying to show a simple total in vs total out that will show what my league pays back to the players.


You mentioned trophies, but you didn't assign a dollar amount. With 700 teams and numerous winners, that's a lot of trophies. Trophies, plaques and patches/pins cost quite a bit of money 3 times a year and in big events like city championships.

I didn't mention too much about trophies because only the first place team get one. A 15-25 trophy awarded to the first place team of each divison. Their are around 70 divisions so thats only 2750.00 at 25 each. So 3 grand 3 times a year for less than 10 grand out of the million he is bringing in isnt much in the grand scheme of things.


No mention of individual achievements. Does your 700 team LO really not do any kind of MVP tournaments or awards for top shooters?


Their is an mvp race in each division. 3 brackets for skill levels, 2-3, 4-5, 6-7 for 8. The winner gets an mvp patch. That's it no money or trophy just a patch.


You mention tricup, money cup and city championships as three separate tournaments. The very definition of a tricup is 3 tournaments. Are you absolutely positive there aren't 3 tricups a year and there is one money cup and one city championship?


The tricup title is a misnomer. Its called tri cup because we are called the tri-county area due to the close relationship of the three counties here in my state. Their are 3 tournaments a year you play for. Tricup after summer session, moneycup after fall session and cities after spring, which includes moneycup winners, tricup winners and division winners from spring. So if your goal is to get to Vegas as a team it makes more sense to win spring so you don't have to play the extra games associated with moneycup or tricup.


You mention that only two teams from this 700 team league went to Nationals. That's not even close. I'm only a little over half that size and I send about 10 teams. I'm guessing it's probably closer to 16 or 18 teams.

I'll verify exactly how many teams were sent to Vegas with our APA office.


I'm going to go ahead and call you on the $2500 per team to Nationals, also. You did mention travel, and that's probably right. But, it also costs money to put these players in hotels for the 6 nights the team will be there, and that's a rather hefty expense as well. Especially when you are sending somewhere close to 18 teams.


The 2500 is to help the team cover the hotel and travel costs or just split between the players if they choose not to go to Vegas. The lo doesn't cover the cost of the hotel rooms. They are booked well in advance but they dont pay for them, its the players responsibility.


I have a list of things that I also offer back in the form of cash and prizes, and I wouldn't be surprised if the LO you are doing the math for also has their list of things they pay back in prize money. How many things are missing from the list?

Finally, in a perfect world where one wants to break down the math, there are no holidays, no acts of god that cancel league play and there most certainly aren't any byes. I can't begin to tell you how much uncollected money you have calculated into your theorem for teams that didn't play due to byes in the schedule.

It's nearly impossible to sit there with a calculator to factor in every single prize payout when you are doing it completely blind to every faction of the LO's administration of the league. Heck, I'd have a tough time doing it for myself each year if I didn't track each and every expense all year long.

If someone wants to make it appear as though the LO only paid out 20% or less, it's pretty easy to casually forget some significant sized expenses. I'm not saying you have done this here and that you aren't making an honest attempt to do the math, but I have to say I'm pretty sure you are either forgetting some things or you just aren't aware of things that are missing.

The best person to ask where all the money goes is the LO him/herself. They'd probably be happy to point out all the things they pay out that you might not have even realized they do. They might even have a list of all the things they pay out listed right in their bylaws.

I'm sure there are things that I didn't account for. I didn't even begin to touch his administrative cost as I have no idea what he pays his staff, which by the way is his wife, son and daughter in-law. I didn't include patches, we don't get any pins. There are only 6 patches that he gives out, 8 on the break, 9 on the snap, 8 b-r, 9-br, 20-0, skunk and the mvp. You can only get one per session no matter how many you actually earn, or how many different teams you play on.
All in all i was just trying to so that somewhere in the area of 20% +- 5% seemed about right for my apa region. I'm sure their are some lo's that give more and some give less back to the players. My lo could give back much more to the players but has not incentive too. APA is the only league in the area. He has no competition for players and no reason to give more back when he doesn't have too. In the end he is running a business and why would anyone in business give out more money than they have too.
Like i said before just from reading your posts on AZ you sound like a great lo. I wasn't making this a personal attack at apa or you personally. I enjoy playing apa for the most part as it gives me a chance to meet new people and gives me a reason to want to improve my game. I use to have issues with the sandbagging but i have gotten to a point where i dont care anymore. I'f I play my best game and I get beat then they were the better player regardless of the race. I'm always in search of that that perfect night where the stars aline, I play perfect shape on every ball and make all the shots I know i can make. Until then I'm just a lowly 4 who started as a 2 three years ago trying to better my game.:)

markpatrick
03-22-2010, 09:04 AM
Another poster who thinks that they know everything. Have you been reading the replies from people who actually might have an idea about the income of a L.O. I would trust that APA LO, APA operator and Scott Lee might have a little bit more insight into it than you.

And while we are generalizing about APA League Operators, why don't we generalize about your type.

You
never want to pay for a table - and yet complain about which free table you get.
spend hours practicing jumping on this free table and then complain the cloth is wearing out.
complain that the tournament you enter has no (or not enough) money added but the don't spend a dime at the pool hall
Complain about the service from the bar becuase your free glass of water takes a few minutes to arrive
I could go on and on becuase i know your type.

Instead of jumping all over those who support the game (and yes, some may make a living off it as well), try supporting the game yourself and the locations that host the game. What the game needs is more APA operators and more Scott Lee's and al ot less of you cheap -------- who only want to take and take and take and give nothing back. The game would be a lot better off without you in it.

In an ideal world, I guess the APA league players get access to a table to practice on and an open table to play their matches? NOT in our area. You pay to practice, you pay to play each game. Nothing is free except a team drink which I used to take but that was on the bar not the APA. I buy buckets and try to enjoy myself. I am having a much better time in Missouri 8 ball where at the end of the session I get some cash back, get a chance to win $6000 three times a year if our team wins the league or the playoffs and only have to win 2 matches to cash out for $1000 bucks. Maybe the issues you point out is in your own league>? Sure not in the St Louis area.

Cheap ***** take a look in the mirror.

Besides, good players do not use break sticks. They use the EZ jumper or know how to kick at any ball and sometimes make time or hit them and hook their opponent and score a defensive shot?

jrt30004
03-22-2010, 11:27 AM
hasn't this horse been kicked enough? yep. they take your money. yep they don't pay out a lot. yep the sandbaggers are rampant. so what? don't like it? don't play. get screwed in your area? don't play. you don't have to play apa, play another league. don't have others in your area? play tournaments. don't have 'em? start one. but good god give it up already. here in atlanta i can't stand the sandbagging. but we get taken care of pretty well. especially north of the city. a lot of decent tables in ok rooms. tables are free from one hour before start, usually until the places close. we pay something like $30 a year dues, and anywhere from $7 to $9 a week dues per team. until the end of the current session i will be on four teams. i play on almost every team, every week. so i pay $36 a week in fees. i play roughly 20 hours of pool. if i paid table time that would be about $200, i pay $36. i also have a few ridiculous sl 7/9's in my area who i've befriended and i get to hang and shoot with them and they teach me when ever they can. so i also get some free lessons. i like my apa just fine. our LO makes money. how much? don't know. don't care. know why? guy works for it, five days a week and when we have the big singles tournaments or team tournaments he can be there 12 - 13 hours a day all weekend. and he pays out a lot for expenses. office, electricity, phone and fax lines, web site, it people, computers, two employees, his gas to drive around to all the tournaments, and sometimes to some of the locations, are just some of his expenses. i have my own family bsuiness and i know what that stuff costs and it's alot. plus the apa is like the mob. you're not just earning for you. no way, you gotta kick back upstairs or you got problems. the boys in st. louis want their cut. so i've done my math, i save about $164 a week on table time, i get free lessons ($100 an hour when i've had to pay) and to date i've won close to a grand in apa single and team tournaments. i'm good. if your not, quit.

justadub
03-22-2010, 12:18 PM
In an ideal world, I guess the APA league players get access to a table to practice on and an open table to play their matches? NOT in our area. You pay to practice, you pay to play each game. Nothing is free except a team drink which I used to take but that was on the bar not the APA. I buy buckets and try to enjoy myself.

Once again I must point out that the issues you raise are localized issues, not necessarily consistent everywhere APA is played. (Or any other national league system.) In our league we have all the tables in the place at our disposal on league nights, except for the one place which has over 20 tables, and they still give us all we need and more. (Two weeks ago by some scheduling snafu there were actually four different matches going on at that place on the same evening, so we did have pretty much all the tables, save for one or two.) We never pay for table time on league night, and even those who aren't actually playing that night can use the practice tables as long as they want.

I'm still looking for that free drink, though... :D

Yes, it does suck that the area where you live, the bar owners make you pay. That isn't the APAs fault, rather the bar owners.

Isn't APA HQ in St.Louis? If you are really that dissatisfied with APA, as it sure seems in your many resposnses, why don't you walk on over and talk to those folks face to face?

You are fortunate that you have an alternative in which to play, and one that seems to make you happy. APA leagues make some people happy, too. Depending on how they are run, of course, and that varies all over the country. It is narrow-minded to assume because it goes badly for you there where you live that it will go badly for me here where I live. And vice versa, of course.

markpatrick
03-22-2010, 12:28 PM
Isn't APA HQ in St.Louis? If you are really that dissatisfied with APA, as it sure seems in your many resposnses, why don't you walk on over and talk to those folks face to face?

You are fortunate that you have an alternative in which to play, and one that seems to make you happy. APA leagues make some people happy, too. Depending on how they are run, of course, and that varies all over the country. It is narrow-minded to assume because it goes badly for you there where you live that it will go badly for me here where I live. And vice versa, of course.

Yes the APA is based in St Louis, Lake St Louis. A gated high security community.

I will stick with Missouri 8 ball and cease to comment on this issue. I have many friends involved with the APA and that play in that league. They enjoy it. I enjoy having the chance to make a few bucks every 3 or 4 months and play pool with my buddies Ed Libby and Dennis Bullock plus the rest of the team. Plus Ed has a really HOT bar tender which I get to see every other week.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

justadub
03-22-2010, 02:09 PM
Plus Ed has a really HOT bar tender which I get to see every other week.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'd want to play there, too! :D

TheNewSharkster
03-22-2010, 04:48 PM
Couple random thoughts after reading this thread-

- Nobody has mentioned the single qualifier boards. These can pretty much be held by anyone at any time. I don't remember the exact math but I remember it being somewhere around $15 per person. The winner of the tournament doesn't get any money. Just a chance to qualify for vegas at the regionals. They only give out a couple spots and these have to bring in a lot of money. Where does all this money go? I know some goes to the person who wins the regional but I would think that is a small portion.

- At the last cities tournament everybody had to sign a paper that said there skill level is accurate. What if I play my butt off the weeks before the cities tournament and then move over to the 7' tables with the huge pockets? It would help you play above your normal skill. Who is to say you just aren't have the game of your life and then get disqualified. It just seems funny that APA touts the handicap system so much and then makes you sign a paper saying that you should be a certain SL. How the **** should I know my skill level? That is what the equalizer is for.

Worst_7_ever
03-22-2010, 06:30 PM
hasn't this horse been kicked enough? yep. they take your money. yep they don't pay out a lot. yep the sandbaggers are rampant. so what? don't like it? don't play. get screwed in your area? don't play. you don't have to play apa, play another league. don't have others in your area? play tournaments. don't have 'em? start one. but good god give it up already. here in atlanta i can't stand the sandbagging. but we get taken care of pretty well. especially north of the city. a lot of decent tables in ok rooms. tables are free from one hour before start, usually until the places close. we pay something like $30 a year dues, and anywhere from $7 to $9 a week dues per team. until the end of the current session i will be on four teams. i play on almost every team, every week. so i pay $36 a week in fees. i play roughly 20 hours of pool. if i paid table time that would be about $200, i pay $36. i also have a few ridiculous sl 7/9's in my area who i've befriended and i get to hang and shoot with them and they teach me when ever they can. so i also get some free lessons. i like my apa just fine. our LO makes money. how much? don't know. don't care. know why? guy works for it, five days a week and when we have the big singles tournaments or team tournaments he can be there 12 - 13 hours a day all weekend. and he pays out a lot for expenses. office, electricity, phone and fax lines, web site, it people, computers, two employees, his gas to drive around to all the tournaments, and sometimes to some of the locations, are just some of his expenses. i have my own family bsuiness and i know what that stuff costs and it's alot. plus the apa is like the mob. you're not just earning for you. no way, you gotta kick back upstairs or you got problems. the boys in st. louis want their cut. so i've done my math, i save about $164 a week on table time, i get free lessons ($100 an hour when i've had to pay) and to date i've won close to a grand in apa single and team tournaments. i'm good. if your not, quit.

Very well put....

Scott Lee
03-22-2010, 06:49 PM
Just FYI, the APA HQ is a business district that anyone has access to...it is NOT in a gated high security community. Anyone can walk right and talk to the head honchos.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yes the APA is based in St Louis, Lake St Louis. A gated high security community.

Eieio59
03-22-2010, 07:07 PM
Yes the APA is based in St Louis, Lake St Louis. A gated high security community.



" A gated high security community"????:confused: All I know is that when you want to visit the APA National Office, you pull of the highway, park and walk in...... there isn't a gate at their office, to keep you out.......

Oooppps...sorry Scott.....didn't see your above post! Ah well...just reconfirming!

ChicagoRJ
03-22-2010, 08:50 PM
Yeah, I have played many leagues, but the APA was an eye opener. So I put together a team with some family and neighbors and chose APA because it was in the area. And then we made the mistake of winning the league. Because when we showed up for playoffs, the meaty hooks were waiting for us,,, "um, you owed $40 for the playoffs"

So the four teams that made the playoffs still had pay the weekly fees to play in a tourney that had no table time??? WOW. Give me a break already. Yeah, make a profit, but geez !!

Going back to BCA/ACS combo league with real payouts, and nice parties at end of each session. How the heck wants to keep score of every single freakin game every league night?????

dogginda9
03-22-2010, 09:56 PM
I :wub: the APA.

overtaker
03-22-2010, 10:10 PM
Funny
overtaker...I personally know 5 out of 6 league operators in the chicagoland area, and none of them can really play that well. Whats next, are you now gonna tell me I don't really know them? As I said, "In general" they cannot play well. I am sure there are plenty that can. I am sure you know some that can, and am really sure, I know some that cannot. Now go back into replying to posts without really thinking about what was writen to begin with, and leave me alone.:wink:

There is no doubt that you are the worst 7 ever, lol. Wow, you know 5 league operators and that's what your making your claim on based on 5 out of over 265 league operators. You don't know what you are talking about.
And so what if the 5 you know can't play very well, that has no bearing on them running a great league or not. A league operator with the Largest Pool League in the World actually has numerous divisions to manage on a daily basis vs. someone that has a BCA league, usually one division primarily made up of a bunch of whiners and a lot of bad players added in there, has a lot of spare time to play pool since they don't have much of a league to handle. I know more that a few that would make you look like the worst 3 ever, lol.

overtaker
03-22-2010, 10:14 PM
Yeah, I have played many leagues, but the APA was an eye opener. So I put together a team with some family and neighbors and chose APA because it was in the area. And then we made the mistake of winning the league. Because when we showed up for playoffs, the meaty hooks were waiting for us,,, "um, you owed $40 for the playoffs"

So the four teams that made the playoffs still had pay the weekly fees to play in a tourney that had no table time??? WOW. Give me a break already. Yeah, make a profit, but geez !!

Going back to BCA/ACS combo league with real payouts, and nice parties at end of each session. How the heck wants to keep score of every single freakin game every league night?????

Did you ever bother to read the rule book. It states that dues are due during playoffs but I am sure that would have been too much trouble. It is a lot easier to blame someone else. whaaaaaaa

Worst_7_ever
03-23-2010, 11:04 AM
.............................

Worst_7_ever
03-23-2010, 11:05 AM
Did you ever bother to read the rule book. It states that dues are due during playoffs but I am sure that would have been too much trouble. It is a lot easier to blame someone else. whaaaaaaa

............................

APA LO
03-23-2010, 12:24 PM
Ok, your the best Julian...your the best.

I am done having a "conversation" with some donk who is afraid to use there real account, and has to create one just defend the skill levels of APA LO's...

Funny, looks like Overtaker, APA LO, and APA Operator all are using new accounts, how funny. They wouldnt all be the same person would they???:thumbup:

I signed up for AZBilliards in April of '07. Do you really consider that a new account? I can assure you I only have one account here.

I can't speak for the other two as I do not know who they are. Just from reading their posts, they do not appear to be the same person.

jrt30004
03-23-2010, 01:51 PM
I signed up for AZBilliards in April of '07. Do you really consider that a new account? I can assure you I only have one account here.

I can't speak for the other two as I do not know who they are. Just from reading their posts, they do not appear to be the same person.

you're not new but you don't post much and you have alot of posts in this one thread so from the outside it can look a little off. and it happens waaaayyyy toooo much on here where someone will have multiple accounts laying in wait for the day one of them gets banned. it's pretty clear you post mostly in regards to matters regarding the apa. btw i commend you for the belief you hold in the apa and your defense of it. i have lost a lot of interest and respect for the league and i my self now limit how much i will help defend it, but someone has to because i believe the league is a good starting place for new players.

Blackball75
03-23-2010, 03:09 PM
it's pretty clear you post mostly in regards to matters regarding the apa.


Well there's a shocker :)

cuesmith
03-23-2010, 04:43 PM
.

I haven't responded to you before, mainly because it seems rather obvious to me that you seem pretty convinced in our opinion. It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt it. But, for your loyal readers, I will go ahead and do it anyway. I operate a very big league. Not once in probably the last 5 years has a team split in two due to handicaps in my league. A team split in two because there was a ton of infighting going on amongst them, but not once has a team split in two for handicap reasons. Thus, the "pyramid scheme" thought process is quite skewed.




I've been trying to avoid posting anymore in this thread, I've already stated my point clearly and no one has yet to really address any of the issues truthfully. You and the other LO's are defending your businesses and I respect that! I've been a small businessman for over 40 years and if you think that's easy you haven't a clue! I've owned pool bars and pool rooms with APA teams. One of the selling points in the LO's pitch was how the "23 rule" was designed to work. I have to admit that from a bar owners prospective the concept sounded good, until the ramifications gradually became clear. I tried doing things the way you should in respect to handicaps and found out how screwed up the system is. We played the numbers game for a while just to keep together but it just wasn't worth it. I don't care how much the LO's make, I know they earn every penny and have a lot of expenses. I'd have to be guaranteed a 7 figure income to consider doing the job (again. was a LO in a different league) and I doubt any of them are making that much! My complaint is still the use of the "23 rule" to populate more teams, which is the primary cause of the sandbagging situation and numbers games.
I won't take the position that you're lying about not having any teams in your league that have split up due to handicaps in the past 5 years, BUT if this is true you have probably the worse case of sandbagging in the country for the players to keep their handicaps where NO teams have had to split!!!!! That is probably the most rediculous statement I've ever heard from anyone in regards to the APA league! You have to understand, I'm not new to the APA, I started in it when it was in it's infancy as the Busch Pool League. I even have one of the OLD fake neon "Busch Pool League" sign's on my basement wall. I've captained many teams and played on others. Got as attic full of trophys from 6" to 3' tall from them. Been there done that! From the beginning, I was in the bar business and was aware of the situation. I didn't like the "23 rule" from the get go and have never been shy about voicing my opinion about it. Like any bad rule, if no one complains, nothing will change. At this point, I wouldn't play in the APA if they let _ME_ write the rules and it was free! I have no interest in being in a bar with drunks. Spent too much time in the bar business to enjoy that! But I'll still try to let the people who still enjoy this activity, know why they're in the situation they're in. Not many understand the system and most just go with the flow. If you league operators really believe that a majority of the people in the leagues are happy with the "23 rule" , the handicap system, the sandbagging, and yes the payouts (which meant nothing to me, I know it's a recreational activity, not a business for the players and don't really care as much about the money aspect as the unfair rules just to make more for "St. Louis"! ) then you're either in denial, very naive or aren't listening!
I'm going to try to refrain from posting in this thread anymore. I hope we can all just let it drop. You're not going to change the league, my mind or yours apparently so we'll just have to agree to disagree!

jrt30004
03-23-2010, 05:48 PM
Well there's a shocker :)

damn. sometimes you think it, then you type it. and it seems right, but then........doh!:D

paksat
03-23-2010, 06:54 PM
Our league OP had the balls to try and tell me she makes about "$5 an hour after all the traveling and paper work that needs to be done"



Get the F*CK out with the lies... good god.

markpatrick
03-23-2010, 07:38 PM
Just FYI, the APA HQ is a business district that anyone has access to...it is NOT in a gated high security community. Anyone can walk right and talk to the head honchos.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

That is where Larry and Terry live. The gated community. Do charge an entry fee for a tour?:eek::eek::eek:

markpatrick
03-23-2010, 07:40 PM
Yeah, I have played many leagues, but the APA was an eye opener. So I put together a team with some family and neighbors and chose APA because it was in the area. And then we made the mistake of winning the league. Because when we showed up for playoffs, the meaty hooks were waiting for us,,, "um, you owed $40 for the playoffs"

So the four teams that made the playoffs still had pay the weekly fees to play in a tourney that had no table time??? WOW. Give me a break already. Yeah, make a profit, but geez !!

Going back to BCA/ACS combo league with real payouts, and nice parties at end of each session. How the heck wants to keep score of every single freakin game every league night?????

Did you win any money? For winning your division.

I guess you did not continue playing for 2 more sessions?

markpatrick
03-23-2010, 07:43 PM
Gee overtaker, you souind alot like a APA LO...just sayin:p

Hey I forgot I did get an APA sweat towel when I played in the team captain tournament.

Sweet.

The $50 I got from Missouri 8 ball was a bunch sweeter.

overtaker
03-23-2010, 11:20 PM
I am sure that towel came in handy as much crying as you do, lol

I love the missouri 8 ball league, i love the missouri 8 ball league
what, are you and the guy that runs it coco buddies or what.

overtaker
03-23-2010, 11:23 PM
That is where Larry and Terry live. The gated community. Do charge an entry fee for a tour?:eek::eek::eek:

They do not live in a gated community. It is nice but now gated.

sounds like you are just a little jealous. Maybe you can win enough playing in that MO ate a ball league to move on up to a DEElux apt. in the sky

ChicagoRJ
03-24-2010, 06:36 AM
Did you ever bother to read the rule book. It states that dues are due during playoffs but I am sure that would have been too much trouble. It is a lot easier to blame someone else. whaaaaaaa

OK, listen up. Did I blame anyone?? NO... just read my post. Again, the complaint is the APA is in business for one thing, to make as much money as possible. Whether or not it states the playoff payment in the rule book doesn't make it right.

Yeah, I didn't read the stupid APA rule book and I do mean STUPID. Here is a national organization that is bastardizing the game of 8 ball so more and more people can grow up to learn some ass backward rules. WHY? Just because they are newer type players, why can't they learn the rules of the game the correct way... I guess when I coached my son's t-ball games, I should have told him that 3 strikes means you go to thirdbase !! This is the biggest problem with APA besides the no money back to players as it ALL goes to the APA and LO..... except for the lucky one team that gets to go to Vegas !!! WOW, take in over $100K and send a team to Vegas,,, thanks, but no thanks. BUt, if anyone likes the set up, format and rules, then go for it and stick with it. But don't knock the ones that don't like it because most of us are the ones who have played in just about every league set up imaginable, and know the difference between the good leagues and the complete inferior ones !!

ChicagoRJ
03-24-2010, 06:40 AM
I've been trying to avoid posting anymore in this thread, I've already stated my point clearly and no one has yet to really address any of the issues truthfully. You and the other LO's are defending your businesses and I respect that! I've been a small businessman for over 40 years and if you think that's easy you haven't a clue! I've owned pool bars and pool rooms with APA teams. One of the selling points in the LO's pitch was how the "23 rule" was designed to work. I have to admit that from a bar owners prospective the concept sounded good, until the ramifications gradually became clear. I tried doing things the way you should in respect to handicaps and found out how screwed up the system is. We played the numbers game for a while just to keep together but it just wasn't worth it. I don't care how much the LO's make, I know they earn every penny and have a lot of expenses. I'd have to be guaranteed a 7 figure income to consider doing the job (again. was a LO in a different league) and I doubt any of them are making that much! My complaint is still the use of the "23 rule" to populate more teams, which is the primary cause of the sandbagging situation and numbers games.
I won't take the position that you're lying about not having any teams in your league that have split up due to handicaps in the past 5 years, BUT if this is true you have probably the worse case of sandbagging in the country for the players to keep their handicaps where NO teams have had to split!!!!! That is probably the most rediculous statement I've ever heard from anyone in regards to the APA league! You have to understand, I'm not new to the APA, I started in it when it was in it's infancy as the Busch Pool League. I even have one of the OLD fake neon "Busch Pool League" sign's on my basement wall. I've captained many teams and played on others. Got as attic full of trophys from 6" to 3' tall from them. Been there done that! From the beginning, I was in the bar business and was aware of the situation. I didn't like the "23 rule" from the get go and have never been shy about voicing my opinion about it. Like any bad rule, if no one complains, nothing will change. At this point, I wouldn't play in the APA if they let _ME_ write the rules and it was free! I have no interest in being in a bar with drunks. Spent too much time in the bar business to enjoy that! But I'll still try to let the people who still enjoy this activity, know why they're in the situation they're in. Not many understand the system and most just go with the flow. If you league operators really believe that a majority of the people in the leagues are happy with the "23 rule" , the handicap system, the sandbagging, and yes the payouts (which meant nothing to me, I know it's a recreational activity, not a business for the players and don't really care as much about the money aspect as the unfair rules just to make more for "St. Louis"! ) then you're either in denial, very naive or aren't listening!
I'm going to try to refrain from posting in this thread anymore. I hope we can all just let it drop. You're not going to change the league, my mind or yours apparently so we'll just have to agree to disagree!

Well Said !!! In my only second and last session of APA, my team of neighbors and family members are on the verge of not playing together, unless of coure I go out and find another 2 and make sure they lose consistently to stay a 2 so the rest of us can still shoot !!! NO THANKS..

LeagueGuy
03-24-2010, 07:50 AM
This is the biggest problem with APA besides the no money back to players as it ALL goes to the APA and LO..... except for the lucky one team that gets to go to Vegas !!! WOW, take in over $100K and send a team to Vegas,,, thanks, but no thanks. !!


Ok Lets do the math on this complaint.

If a league operator takes in $100,000 a year asuming the fees are $8 per player (maybe high) then with 45 weeks of play they would by my calculation be approx 55 teams in that league. A league with 55 teams gets to send 2 or 3 teams to Las Vegas not just 1.

My APA league that i play in has about that number of teams and we send 3 teams to Vegas every year. 2 8-ball and 1 9-ball.

Everyone is entiltled to thier opinion on the APA and whether they like it or not but please do not cloud the isssus with false information. There are a number of people on here with an agenda aginast the APA and very few of us vocal minoprity to support it. Why is it the someof those (not all) with the negative comments have to make up fake number to try to prove their point.

LeagueGuy
03-24-2010, 07:56 AM
Well Said !!! In my only second and last session of APA, my team of neighbors and family members are on the verge of not playing together, unless of coure I go out and find another 2 and make sure they lose consistently to stay a 2 so the rest of us can still shoot !!! NO THANKS..

If what you are saying is true, the "family and neighbors" have all attained higher skill levels than a 3 in the first sesssion they played. That tells me that they were in most cases avid pool players to begin with and you should have seen that coming. New players to the game do not reach a skill of 4 for at least 3 sessions in my number of years of experience.

You put together a team full of higher skilled players in a league that caters to the lower skilled players and then run into handicap trouble. Go figure. Then you have the nerve to blame the APA for it.

Seems to me that the captain is at fault here and is just looking for someone else to blame.

markpatrick
03-24-2010, 09:56 PM
They do not live in a gated community. It is nice but now gated.

sounds like you are just a little jealous. Maybe you can win enough playing in that MO ate a ball league to move on up to a DEElux apt. in the sky

All my vehicles are paid off, it is you my friend who find yourself bewildered by having to work for a living while individuals such as myself have been able to save enough money to determine my destiny.

Just introduce yourself sometime and let me know what it is in regards to and we can go from there.

I just spoke to a guy tonight that actually won the APA tournament, they got 10000 bucks and a trophy that was 6 foot tall. Nice trophy.:eek::eek:

Do not have time to respond to all your BS post. So, this addresses them ALL.

markpatrick
03-24-2010, 09:59 PM
They do not live in a gated community. It is nice but now gated.

sounds like you are just a little jealous. Maybe you can win enough playing in that MO ate a ball league to move on up to a DEElux apt. in the sky

Learn to spell NEWBIE

markpatrick
03-24-2010, 10:04 PM
Ok Lets do the math on this complaint.

If a league operator takes in $100,000 a year asuming the fees are $8 per player (maybe high) then with 45 weeks of play they would by my calculation be approx 55 teams in that league. A league with 55 teams gets to send 2 or 3 teams to Las Vegas not just 1.

My APA league that i play in has about that number of teams and we send 3 teams to Vegas every year. 2 8-ball and 1 9-ball.

Everyone is entiltled to thier opinion on the APA and whether they like it or not but please do not cloud the isssus with false information. There are a number of people on here with an agenda aginast the APA and very few of us vocal minoprity to support it. Why is it the someof those (not all) with the negative comments have to make up fake number to try to prove their point.

Some people play in the APA just for the enjoyment of playing in a league, with the pie in the sky chance for Vegas. I have done so myself as have many of my friends. So, KUDOs to the APA league players. Keep your head up, your beer bottle in the air and keep whacking balls.

FOr those of us that like to play in a league that you can win 7000 bucks locally every 4 months and not leave town, we will stay on our side of town. It is time for this thread to die. Before we start tracking IP addresses and restricting access or better yet air.

jrt30004
03-24-2010, 10:52 PM
......................................

markpatrick
03-24-2010, 11:10 PM
The guy that has 18 post and 2 screen names.

People know where I am at as well. At any tournament within 400 miles of St Louis that adds 2500 or more.

I was in Atlanta a couple weeks ago for a car race but that is about it.

Anyone want to buy some APA patches?

Do you know when the Busch League started there were no handicap limits? That is right you got together the best players and put a team together.
Then they implemented the 36 rule, which after a couple years dropped to the 32 rule, then the 26 rule and finally what we have today the 23 rule. If 2 of your players get moved up in Vegas you are disqualified. SWEET.

What is the point? Do not have one. Do not need one. Dennis this post is for you and Ed.

jrt30004
03-25-2010, 05:34 AM
The guy that has 18 post and 2 screen names.

People know where I am at as well. At any tournament within 400 miles of St Louis that adds 2500 or more.

I was in Atlanta a couple weeks ago for a car race but that is about it.

Anyone want to buy some APA patches?

Do you know when the Busch League started there were no handicap limits? That is right you got together the best players and put a team together.
Then they implemented the 36 rule, which after a couple years dropped to the 32 rule, then the 26 rule and finally what we have today the 23 rule. If 2 of your players get moved up in Vegas you are disqualified. SWEET.

What is the point? Do not have one. Do not need one. Dennis this post is for you and Ed.

mark i understand your verbally battling a troll in this thread but your insulting a large group of people at the same the time. i deleated my post so as not to perpetuate this garbarge but i am guessing you may have read it judging by your post above. i stand by what i said and in case you didn't read it or anyone else wants to know - good for you. you quit the apa. glad for you and your 8 ball league. stop knocking the apa, we're not all bangers and morons. and don't openly threaten people on the internet. talking about "cutting of people's air" winds up making everyone uncomfortable. including those of us who aren't directly fighting with you but are offended by some of your posts. and here's why, i disagree with you, i don't like some of your posts. now i post and disagree. are you going to threaten me next? and i as said in my orginal post some of us don't play apa to go to vegas - we play to play. i've gotten moved up and had to switch teams multiple times and i could care less. i am glad you like your 8 ball league better than the apa. i don't. i enjoy playing different people every session. i am also sorry you don't get anything from you local apa. here in atlanta we get some decent prizes. i also don't want you to think i am a blind supporter of the apa. there is a sheer tonage of things i don't like about it. i just also don't like people calling me a drunken banger because i play in it. if you don't like this next time you're in atlanta look me up and we can talk more.

Icon of Sin
03-25-2010, 06:18 AM
Well Said !!! In my only second and last session of APA, my team of neighbors and family members are on the verge of not playing together, unless of coure I go out and find another 2 and make sure they lose consistently to stay a 2 so the rest of us can still shoot !!! NO THANKS..

It's sad but you are punished for getting better and playing fair. The skill level system encourages sandbagging. LOL.

Andrew on the first page mentioned it. If you are playing in the APA and looking for money to come back then you are doing it wrong. In my opinion the APA is good for only one thing. Decent, Cheap, consistant competition. the rules and handicap system blows and you have to reconignize that in order to somewhat enjoy yourself. Hell, I hate it, but it's cheap competition with other players around my caliber.

If you are in the APA to get something back (other then practice) then you need to re-assess your situation. Very little money is paid out to the majority of the players. The only ones who have any decent type of benefit are the ones who win the trips to Vegas. Yes the money intake is waaaayyy larger then the payout. For this area it has to be. We send a slew of teams to vegas each year and the LO here has an entire office staff. Money has to go to the building lease/rent. Office Supplies. Salaries. Renting a Hall for a board of governors meeting. Expenses for food at the meetings.

I'm not trying to defend them really but to say the LO's bring in 7 figures for them selves is pretty ****ing absurd. I'm sure they are doing pretty well as they should. We have the largest APA league in the country here, they deserve something good in return for creating such a successful business.

Heath<----MD player. Shoots in the APA but doesnt really like it. Not good enough to quit it.

Maniac
03-25-2010, 06:20 AM
It is time for this thread to die.

Call in a priest for cryin' out loud !!!

Maniac

markpatrick
03-29-2010, 12:40 AM
Hey I forgot I did get an APA sweat towel when I played in the team captain tournament.

Sweet.

The $50 I got from Missouri 8 ball was a bunch sweeter.

Leagues are intended to bring new players in - Yesterday, 07:01 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by poolplayer2093
i had a blast when i played in a league. i met a lot of good people and i still enjoy running into them. While i was in the league i did meet a couple of really good players though.

Contrary to my prior post, I recently discussed this with a friend who used to be my boss and is a league operator. His league pays out $3 per point a team earns. In addition to other events for the players.

All be it all I got was a APA towel, I use it to wipe the tears everytime I think about all the beer I could have gotten had my LO paid out by the point. Thats a good party since both me and my wife played on the team.

So, this is where my post in negative tone against the APA end. It depends on your league operator. If you want to play in a league find out going in what the payouts are? A chance for Vegas or a chance for Vegas plus a few bucks for us 3s and 4s that play just to drink and spend an evening with friends.

The money just makes it more fun, at least for me.

Me and the wife $14 bucks a week for fees. $30 a week for beer.
$3 bucks a point, would have enabled us a decent dinner at Red Lobster or better yet a pool date night of quarters and BEER.

The League Operator I spoke to probably has more integrity in the St Louis Area Pool community than most people I know or have known. I know I would buy him in an 8 ball auction, whether or not he has played or not in months.

Sianara

Thunderball
03-29-2010, 02:37 AM
Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.

Maniac
03-29-2010, 07:16 AM
Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.

Call off the priest!!!!

So Thunderball, what you're saying is that in this current APA session you are only halfway into it and you are ALREADY having to forfeit one match every week :eek:??? That SUCKS BIG-TIME !!!

Maniac

paksat
03-29-2010, 07:22 AM
Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.

wow what a joke..

hopefully another league will overtake it or people will smarten up.. probably not.

Thunderball
03-29-2010, 07:58 AM
Call off the priest!!!!

So Thunderball, what you're saying is that in this current APA session you are only halfway into it and you are ALREADY having to forfeit one match every week :eek:??? That SUCKS BIG-TIME !!!

Maniac

Yup....sucks on more then a few levels. ...been on the 4/19 rule for the last month or better. Everytime we flip the coin to get started we lose a match. The greater problem for me is wtf are we playing for?? To go into the playoffs in this shape?.....to what end? To get to the cities??? Lol ....why waste the time...can't show up there shooting 4 to win 3 and not get crushed...esp when if you consider we can shoot exactly 1 six each match.

I've enjoyed my league nights and my game is up...never did it for the cash...yada yada...but my team must bust up...and if we as players are gonna stay involved we must show and play and pay....and for what? Frustrating as hell at the moment....just blowing money and time now.

I told my team we are gonna handle this like the 300 lol....win every game every match ..hell every lag....we never have bagged...we ain't starting now. We'll go out fighting even if the fight is lost.

paksat
03-29-2010, 08:53 AM
Yup....sucks on more then a few levels. ...been on the 4/19 rule for the last month or better. Everytime we flip the coin to get started we lose a match. The greater problem for me is wtf are we playing for?? To go into the playoffs in this shape?.....to what end? To get to the cities??? Lol ....why waste the time...can't show up there shooting 4 to win 3 and not get crushed...esp when if you consider we can shoot exactly 1 six each match.

I've enjoyed my league nights and my game is up...never did it for the cash...yada yada...but my team must bust up...and if we as players are gonna stay involved we must show and play and pay....and for what? Frustrating as hell at the moment....just blowing money and time now.

I told my team we are gonna handle this like the 300 lol....win every game every match ..hell every lag....we never have bagged...we ain't starting now. We'll go out fighting even if the fight is lost.

You're playing right into the LO's pocket with that idea.

alstl
03-29-2010, 09:15 AM
I just joined an APA team for the first time and I'm just a banger. After 3 matches in APA 9 ball my rating is 6. Now I run the risk of being rated so high my team can't use me.

I like the scoring system, am having fun playing, but the limit of 23 seems too restrictive.

Grilled Cheese
03-29-2010, 09:59 AM
My advice to players wanting to advance and get better at the game:


Once you reach an APA level 6, you should start entering non-APA tournaments that have B or A level players. Once you reach an APA 7 level, you should quit the APA entirely and focus on playing in tournaments or join a BCA league that has a lot of strong players.


That's for people who are using the APA to grow as a player. Once you're a strong 6, there's really nothing left in the APA for you. You'll find that you should beat anyone lower than you at least 90% of the time or more. If you don't, it's just laziness or lack of game discipline. Going from a 6 to a 7 is merely the process of improving cluster management (to increase B&R's), being consistent meaning having better discipline and applying yourself more seriously. That's the only difference. Have to focus more to produce more B&R's and 1 inning games, whereas being a 6 you can snooze through matches and just beat most anyone with just ball pocketing skills and some real basic position play.


For the better player, the APA actually hurts your game. You are subjected to the visual reinforcement of terrible play on league night. Watching 3's smash balls into rails for 30 innings, playing opponents who cannot safe you behind a cluster of 5 balls, watching others and playing others who can barely hold the cue straight or who have poke strokes or no strokes at all. Playing 5's, 6's and even 7's who demonstrate no knowledge whatsoever in the proper way to play 8-ball. You get my point.


It simply isn't challenging. Rarely are you punished for relinquishing control of the table. Rarely do you find yourself in a lock safe that was intentional. Rarely do you ever find yourself up against an opponent who is managing their game according to the principles of good 8-ball play -which in turn should make every game more difficult for you. Instead, you find yourself playing innings and games that are total sell-outs most of the time. If you want to play from sell-out positions, just throw balls out onto the table during practice, take ball in hand, and have at it and get your fix.


APA reinforces lack of discipline, focus, laziness etc. You aren't under pressure. You aren't faced with tough situations as often as you should be. You aren't forced to compete at your best level just to survive.


This hinders growth as a player.


The APA is good for total beginners who are still learning how to bridge. Once you get up to 6 or 7, it's time to move on - otherwise you're just going to languish in an environment of weak play and not improve. Those that stay usually like being the big fish in a little pond. I take no pride in beating up on people who don't know how to hold a cue, who don't have a stroke, who are usually drunk and just bang away at balls once a week. That is why I don't play APA.


Like I said, it isn't all bad. For the beginner, there isn't a better way in. It is awkward and impractical for a beginner to start playing tournaments where the level is too high. Total beginners have a hard time getting games with others because they are too new at the game to offer a match up. Therefore, the APA is a great way to get the foot in the door. To be able to play against other beginners and get some kind of structured matches and competition going.

LeagueGuy
03-29-2010, 12:42 PM
Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.


How did you start the session without realizing that most of your players were underranked. That is not the fault of the system but the fault of the captain.
Not sure if they were new or not but if anyone on the team had played APA for even 1 session prior, then they should have realized what was coming.

jason
03-29-2010, 12:58 PM
How did you start the session without realizing that most of your players were underranked. That is not the fault of the system but the fault of the captain.
Not sure if they were new or not but if anyone on the team had played APA for even 1 session prior, then they should have realized what was coming.

Ooohh, please LeagueGuy! It is totally the failure of the system. The captain is only a small part of this system. If we lived in a perfect world, we wouldn't need any systems at all. Nice rose colored glasses you're wearing. Take them off and put on the brown ones, you might see the world differently.

greyghost
03-29-2010, 01:01 PM
Ooohh, please LeagueGuy! It is totally the failure of the system. The captain is only a small part of this system. If we lived in a perfect world, we wouldn't need any systems at all. Nice rose colored glasses you're wearing. Take them off and put on the brown ones, you might see the world differently.

I hear the brown ones give you pink eye!

LeagueGuy
03-29-2010, 01:08 PM
Ooohh, please LeagueGuy! It is totally the failure of the system. The captain is only a small part of this system. If we lived in a perfect world, we wouldn't need any systems at all. Nice rose colored glasses you're wearing. Take them off and put on the brown ones, you might see the world differently.

Sorry but I happen to believe that the system works. If you have a team where 7 out of the 8 players go up in half a session then the idiot who put those players together in a 23 handicap league is the guy at fault. Not the system.

jrt30004
03-29-2010, 01:10 PM
I hear the brown ones give you pink eye!

i thought brown ones gave you the stink eye;)

jason
03-29-2010, 01:24 PM
Sorry but I happen to believe that the system works. If you have a team where 7 out of the 8 players go up in half a session then the idiot who put those players together in a 23 handicap league is the guy at fault. Not the system.

Let me just say this, any and all handicapping systems are flawed. Some are just more flawed than others. The BCA/VNEA do not have the problems the APA has. If you try to sandbag in these leagues, it is most likely to come back to burn you.

Sandbagging in the APA on the other hand, will play dividends if you're not caught. Sometimes a player is even punished in the APA, not for sandbagging, but for playing well over their ability.

Just imagine if we handicapped the NCAA tournament like we do the APA. Northern IOWA would have been moved immediately to a 7 (or a 1 seed) after beating Kansas. They would have been called every name in the book by the rest of the teams. The tournament directors would forced to make an incorrect judgement because of the pressure.

LeagueGuy
03-29-2010, 01:34 PM
[QUOTE=jason;2345734
Just imagine if we handicapped the NCAA tournament like we do the APA. Northern IOWA would have been moved immediately to a 7 (or a 1 seed) after beating Kansas. They would have been called every name in the book by the rest of the teams. The tournament directors would forced to make an incorrect judgement because of the pressure.[/QUOTE]


I don't even know how to respond to that other than that is the stupidest comment I have ever seen

smoooothstroke
03-29-2010, 01:45 PM
Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.

I don't know if you can add a player but just pick up a begining player to play as a 2 and he or she will have lots of good coaching.

cuesmith
03-29-2010, 01:47 PM
I don't even know how to respond to that other than that is the stupidest comment I have ever seen

Not nearly as bad as a league operator claiming that in 5 years he'd only had one team split up due to handicaps raising.

jason
03-29-2010, 01:54 PM
Not nearly as bad as a league operator claiming that in 5 years he'd only had one team split up due to handicaps raising.

Isn't it strange how a lot of handicaps seem go up just before or during the Vegas time? I'll be damned if I ever took a team to Vegas and couldn't play because they raised us over the limit. Don't tell me I should have a 20 man roster either. If I win a trip for five to Vegas, I better be able to play all 5 no matter what.

alstl
03-29-2010, 07:24 PM
I don't even know how to respond to that other than that is the stupidest comment I have ever seen

You obviously haven't been reading my comments. I've got dozens far more stupid than that.

skiergirl55
03-29-2010, 09:52 PM
Wow. I mean, Wow.

I'm reading this trying to decide which one to join in May when new leagues start.

I read through most of this to page 12 before I became disillusioned by both the APA and BCA.........both of which are offered in my town. I don't want either one at this point.:frown:

I've heard from an APA player I met on Sunday night that I should not join BCA because ...and I quote...."they're really good players but snobby". For a beginner playing at a level 4 (his assessment of my playing after 4 games), and reading this, BCA cannot be for me. As someone said, "the team that picks an SL2 will be laughed out of the building". I am not feeling welcome hearing that.

On the other hand, APA seems like a bunch of drama queens all pissing in their oatmeal. And I don't want to be ripped away from a team I'm getting to know just because my game gets better. I don't want team members blowing games just to stay together, go to Vegas (who gives a rip about that??), or for any other bogus reason.

I've bowled on handicap leagues for years, and you never have to leave your team just because someone gets better. That's just so STUPID.:mad:

Maybe I'll just skip them both and spend my time and my quarters playing 4 night a week for fun. I can play a lot of 50 cent games for the price of league fees. Who needs the stress?

Thanks for giving me something to think hard about.

cuesmith
03-29-2010, 11:05 PM
Wow. I mean, Wow.

I'm reading this trying to decide which one to join in May when new leagues start.

I read through most of this to page 12 before I became disillusioned by both the APA and BCA.........both of which are offered in my town. I don't want either one at this point.:frown:

I've heard from an APA player I met on Sunday night that I should not join BCA because ...and I quote...."they're really good players but snobby". For a beginner playing at a level 4 (his assessment of my playing after 4 games), and reading this, BCA cannot be for me. As someone said, "the team that picks an SL2 will be laughed out of the building". I am not feeling welcome hearing that.

On the other hand, APA seems like a bunch of drama queens all pissing in their oatmeal. And I don't want to be ripped away from a team I'm getting to know just because my game gets better. I don't want team members blowing games just to stay together, go to Vegas (who gives a rip about that??), or for any other bogus reason.

I've bowled on handicap leagues for years, and you never have to leave your team just because someone gets better. That's just so STUPID.:mad:

Maybe I'll just skip them both and spend my time and my quarters playing 4 night a week for fun. I can play a lot of 50 cent games for the price of league fees. Who needs the stress?

Thanks for giving me something to think hard about.

I've never played in the BCA League, by the time I finally got totally fed up with the APA numbers games I was burned out on the concept of league play. What I would suggest is checking around your area for weekly local tavern and pool room tournaments. At one time we had at least one tournament we could hit every night of the week, somewhere within about 30-45 minute drive. I found those tournaments to be much more enjoyable than league play. No sandbagging, everyone tried to win every match and there were seldom any disagreements or hard feelings. There was a group of regular players you'd see around here and there and a lot of comraderie among them. This scenerio is common all over the country, you just have to find it and try to fit in. Eventually you'll find your place in the pecking order and at that point, you can call yourself a "pool player"!

Maniac
03-30-2010, 06:41 AM
Maybe I'll just skip them both and spend my time and my quarters playing 4 night a week for fun. I can play a lot of 50 cent games for the price of league fees. Who needs the stress?

NOBODY needs the stress.

Your comment on "spending your time and your quarters playing 4 nights a week for fun" is not a bad idea, with a little tweaking. Figure out about how much you would have spent on a typical night of league, add a few dollars to this amount, then find a player that plays about two balls better than you do and play him/her a race to 7 for the amount you came up with. You are going to lose your money on most nights (you would have paid league fees anyway), but you'll learn from watching this player. You will also get a minimum of 7 games in. But, the best part is, you won't have to sit in a chair for 4 hours watching other people play!!!

Think about it. If you have no problem finding a person to take your money every week, then you are all set. Sometimes it's hard to find people to play for cheap sets, but it's worth a try. When your game gets better, then you may want to join a league that you would feel comfortable in.

Maniac

justadub
03-30-2010, 08:35 AM
Wow. I mean, Wow.

I'm reading this trying to decide which one to join in May when new leagues start.

I read through most of this to page 12 before I became disillusioned by both the APA and BCA.........both of which are offered in my town. I don't want either one at this point.:frown:



This is precisely why I suggested to you that you check out how the leagues run in your area. If you choose your potential future pool adventures based on what a few people on these boards say, you will miss out on a lot of possible fun.

Re the APA: you will find MANY people here who will bash it mercilessly, many who haven't played in it for years. Yet you will also find many of us who are quite satisfied with how the league runs in their particular part of the world. I am one of those folks.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you everyone else is full of it. I haven't experienced how things run where they live. Sadly, those folks will not grant that same tolerance to others; "it sucks here so it must suck everywhere, despite what some poeple on the forum say."

I find that many folks here percieve themselves to be extremely good players. If they are indeed at that level of play, then sure, APA probably isn't for them. My guess is that many are very good players, but not really better than many of the SL7's that play in APA every week. That is a whole other discussion. But you do need to realize that APA is for casual players, and beginners, and that yes, better players are welcome, but in order to make it as fair as possible to the newer players, there will be a handicapping system. ANY handicapping system can be manipulated by those who feel the need to cheat. ANY league that uses one will experience that. The more successful the league, the greater incidence of cheating. Those are the bad apples that make the whole thing look bad for everyone.

I can tell you from my personal experience as a newer player, that the APA has been really good for me. I get a chance to play regularly. I get to play with people who are much better than I am, and learn a lot. I get to compete, fairly. In my part of the world, there really isn't a lot of choice in competition, for a beginner. I'm in my second session with APA, and haven't seen any teams "break up" due the 23 rule. Yes, teams might have to shuffle a player or two around, but I think you will find that happens organically in most cases. Not everyone wants to play every session, or job/school/significant-other dictates that they can't. Some might get sick of it. And yes, for some, the numbers don't work. My team is getting close to that point. But I fully anticipate at least 1, and maybe up to 3 guys leaving after this session anyways, so it'll take care of itself. The ones who bellyache about this the most are the groups of friends who come into the league together, and probably already play at a very high level. If so, they gotta know this isn't gonna be the place for them. Yet they complain, despite knowing what the league is set up for.

The other league opportunities out there might be better for you. They might not be. Again, I ask you to check out how things run in those leagues locally to you, and not to base your decision on what people on the internet say. You have a lot to lose by not seeing things for yourself.

skiergirl55
03-30-2010, 08:46 AM
Good advice, Mainiac and cuesmith. I'll think about that. From what I've seen of the APA league I watched play on Sunday, there is a LOT of standing around and waiting.

If I'm gonna be within touching distance of a table, I'd really rather be playing and watching a better player:grin:

TCIndepMo
03-31-2010, 09:29 PM
What a great thread. Obviously some contributors know what they are talking about. And then there are the others. LOL.

Always been my understanding that the APA is designed to appeal to the lower and mid range skill level players. Of course the really good players are welcome but are constrained by the 23 RULE and the APA skill level system. That's the way the APA wants it.

There will always be more FOURS-FIVES and below on the planet than SIX and SEVEN level players. So the APA goes after the bigger slice of the market.

Approx 260,000 amateur players agreed last year.

If you don't - OK. There will always be other leagues out there. Enjoy.

skiergirl55
04-01-2010, 01:03 AM
I watched an Apple league play tonight. Interesting. No handicap system, it's just game for game. Not for me, these guys were good.

Maniac
04-01-2010, 06:33 AM
I watched an Apple league play tonight. Interesting. No handicap system, it's just game for game. Not for me, these guys were good.

There's still some old McIntosh's around ;)??? Interesting in itself :D!!!

Maniac

P.S. I guess down here in Texas they'd call it a Bar-B-Que league :thumbup:

Scott Lee
04-01-2010, 09:30 AM
skiergirl55...You're admittedly new to pool, yet you are hooked by the mystery (and potential mastery) of it...like many of us. Do not believe all you hear about either APA or BCA. Make your OWN judgement call. You say you have both available to you, and you want to play, so why not join both leagues, for a session? That way you'll get a "birds-eye" view of both leagues, and how they're played in your area. You can then choose which you like better, stick with playing in both, or quit both...but it will be with your own experience, not the whining you hear from people who don't like it themselves.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Good advice, Mainiac and cuesmith. I'll think about that. From what I've seen of the APA league I watched play on Sunday, there is a LOT of standing around and waiting.

If I'm gonna be within touching distance of a table, I'd really rather be playing and watching a better player:grin:

jason
04-01-2010, 10:20 AM
Do not believe all you hear about either APA or BCA. Make your OWN judgement call. You say you have both available to you, and you want to play, so why not join both leagues, for a session?
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Good advice for any subject.

Since she watched an "open" league and was a little intimidated by the level of play, a handicapped league will probably suit her needs better. For low level players, the APA does provide an opportunity to compete. I think most of the frustration of the APA comes from the mid and upper level players. I was so in my case.

In any case, people are looking for different things from pool leagues sometimes. Some care about the competition, some the payouts, some the social aspect, some just like to play.

For me, the APA lost its appeal very early.

justadub
04-01-2010, 10:33 AM
If I remember correctly, her initial concerns were being able to play alot, and to not have to spend a lot of $$$ to do so if possible. And also to meet new (pool-playing) people, and to learn more about the game.

To me, that indicates a league (any league) is a great option, at least initially, until she gets her feet wet and knows more about the game, and what she wants out of it. And at what level she is playing at.

Sadly, she gets bombarded with the usual "don't play APA" stuff right out of the shoot, which might just be perfect for her at this stage of her pool-playing development. Maybe it isn't for her, either. Maybe it is run poorly where she lives, and has a bunch of selfish people playing in it to make it less-than-fun. But who knows, maybe the other leagues have those same issues, where she lives. Unless there is someone from that area making the suggestions to her based on real-life experience, she would be better served getting generalized advice, with perhaps what to look out for as a potential issue that might come up. I somehow doubt that any of those giving advice here live in her area, or they would have already posted rooms to play in, and days/times to play there.

Maybe there is a room there with an in-house league that will cater to new players. That would be cool, too. Or any of the alphabet soup of leagues (APA, BCA,TAP, e-i-e-i-ooooooooh). But those situations should give her the most table time for the lowest buck, and the ability to play with lots of folks that might be able to help her develop her game.

Best of luck, skiergirl.

kyo1128
04-01-2010, 11:59 AM
Is my summary wrong here?

APA:
Pay lot of money
*(Subjective issue but getting all sorts of different #'s)
Not a lot of payout
HC system is not stable
*(Not sure if that's the right word)
You can't be in the same team with your friends
A lot of sandbaggers or need to sandbag because of HC system
Trying to satisfy every player?


BCA
Better players
Better competition


I like to join a league if I didn't have to travel so much for my job.
May be this year.

LeagueGuy
04-01-2010, 12:20 PM
Is my summary wrong here?

APA:
Pay lot of money
*(Subjective issue but getting all sorts of different #'s)
Not a lot of payout
HC system is not stable
*(Not sure if that's the right word)
You can't be in the same team with your friends
A lot of sandbaggers or need to sandbag because of HC system
Trying to satisfy every player?


BCA
Better players
Better competition


I like to join a league if I didn't have to travel so much for my job.
May be this year.


Yes your summary is wrong - very wrong

Lets break it down shall we

1) pay a lot of money - I say $6-8 for a night out with my friends is not alot of money - therefor WRONG

2) Not a lot of payout - I have been to Vegas 3 times plus won money from cash tournaments. Seeing as I play in the league for fun and not money - in my opinion you are WRONG

3) Handicap system not stable - I know players and play in tournamnts in many different areas and have seen very few issues and complints plus in my area 99% of the players are accurately handicapped - In my opinion you are WRONG here as well

4) you can't be on the same team with your friends - If all your friends are really good pool players then maybe you have a point. However the people that are on my team I consider my friends - Therefor you must be WRONG

5) A lot of sandbaggers - as I said I think the people that are in my area and the ones that I see at tournaments are properly handicapped. Maybe that is not the case in you area - I don;t know about your area - but if you trying to describe the APA in my area - you are WRONG again

6) Trying to satisfy every player - last time I checked, the players the APA looks loke they are trying to satisfy are the players who want to play for fun. It is not a league to satisfy people who want to play for money. Therfore the league is not trying to satisfy everyone - Which makes you WRONG AGAIN

BCA - better players better competetion

Better players as a whole yes. better competition - depends on your definition.
If you define better competeion as getting your ass handed to you session after session and knowing full well when you start a session yo have no chance to win, then yes I guess you are correct.

Otherwise - you are WRONG here as well.

The point is if you don't like the APA - then don't play. But stop posting wrong information. If the APA is a problem where you live, then I feel sorry for you because in my area people love it and have a great time.

kyo1128
04-01-2010, 01:20 PM
Yes your summary is wrong - very wrong

Lets break it down shall we

1) pay a lot of money - I say $6-8 for a night out with my friends is not alot of money - therefor WRONG

2) Not a lot of payout - I have been to Vegas 3 times plus won money from cash tournaments. Seeing as I play in the league for fun and not money - in my opinion you are WRONG

3) Handicap system not stable - I know players and play in tournamnts in many different areas and have seen very few issues and complints plus in my area 99% of the players are accurately handicapped - In my opinion you are WRONG here as well

4) you can't be on the same team with your friends - If all your friends are really good pool players then maybe you have a point. However the people that are on my team I consider my friends - Therefor you must be WRONG

5) A lot of sandbaggers - as I said I think the people that are in my area and the ones that I see at tournaments are properly handicapped. Maybe that is not the case in you area - I don;t know about your area - but if you trying to describe the APA in my area - you are WRONG again

6) Trying to satisfy every player - last time I checked, the players the APA looks loke they are trying to satisfy are the players who want to play for fun. It is not a league to satisfy people who want to play for money. Therfore the league is not trying to satisfy everyone - Which makes you WRONG AGAIN

BCA - better players better competetion

Better players as a whole yes. better competition - depends on your definition.
If you define better competeion as getting your ass handed to you session after session and knowing full well when you start a session yo have no chance to win, then yes I guess you are correct.

Otherwise - you are WRONG here as well.

The point is if you don't like the APA - then don't play. But stop posting wrong information. If the APA is a problem where you live, then I feel sorry for you because in my area people love it and have a great time.

WOWOWOW.. Easy there chief.
I just summarized the 15 pages of b****ing and whining.
Like I posted, I've never joined a pool league before, don't have a side to pick here. APA and BCA are just letters to me. All I see on this site is that APA sucks and BCA rules. Stories are blown out of proportion for sure.

I got a question tho, you are saying 6~8 bucks a night.
So $25 per year for membership and it's only going to cost 6~8 per night?
System is so unclear from the site, and I'm just looking for info here.

justadub
04-01-2010, 01:27 PM
I got a question tho, you are saying 6~8 bucks a night.
So $25 per year for membership and it's only going to cost 6~8 per night?
System is so unclear from the site, and I'm just looking for info here.

$25 per session here, $8 per week. The $8 per week is for the 5 people who play on the team, not all 8 team members. In other words, the team has to send in $40 each week. I suppose it could be spread out between all 8 players, but that's not how we do it. Just those who play that week pay the $8.

All of us, playing that week or not, get free table time to practice, the whole evening. No table fees at all. (Depending on open tables, and we all share where necessary. Everyone gets table time each week if they want it.) No free drinks here, dammit. ;)

Still very reasonable for a night of fun. Rent a table anywhere for $8 an hour, give or take a little.

kyo1128
04-01-2010, 01:34 PM
$25 per session here, $8 per week. The $8 per week is for the 5 people who play on the team, not all 8 team members. In other words, the team has to send in $40 each week. I suppose it could be spread out between all 8 players, but that's not how we do it. Just those who play that week pay the $8.

All of us, playing that week or not, get free table time to practice, the whole evening. No table fees at all. (Depending on open tables, and we all share where necessary. Everyone gets table time each week if they want it.) No free drinks here, dammit. ;)

Still very reasonable for a night of fun. Rent a table anywhere for $8 an hour, give or take a little.

I'm not getting session, but I assume it's kind for the duration of how long league plays for?

You pay $25 at the start, $8/night when you play?

ball-banger
04-01-2010, 01:40 PM
I'm not getting session, but I assume it's kind for the duration of how long league plays for?

You pay $25 at the start, $8/night when you play?


There are three "sessions" in one calendar year. It's a $25 membership fee per year, plus weekly money if you play.

justadub
04-01-2010, 01:44 PM
I'm not getting session, but I assume it's kind for the duration of how long league plays for?

You pay $25 at the start, $8/night when you play?

You are correct. Sorry I didn't make that clear. There are three sessions per year. So it isn't $25 per year. Actually, if I remember it correctly, it's $25 for the first session, then $15 for each of the last two sessions you play in. The more I think about it, that has to be it.

I think of the $25 (or $15) as the price to be a member, which allows me to play that period of time (session). Then I pay the $8 on the weeks that I am in a match, and I get to play all night regardless of whether I am one of the five that are actually competing that week. Save for the time when I take a turn at keeping score.

Darned reasonable.

kyo1128
04-01-2010, 01:47 PM
So....
25/year, 25/session, 8/if you play.
You play 3 sessions per year, $100/per year and 8/night?
How does APA payout with that little buy-in.