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View Full Version : How Would You Play This? 3/15/10


Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 09:07 AM
This is an interesting shot that came up for me at league last night. I was struggling but so was my opponent. He missed the 9ball and left me the shot you see below. Now, the 9ball is NEAR frozen (about a hair's width off the rail). Obviously, the 9ball is not bankable in the upper-left corner. In my attempt, I tried to spin the ball in with right english and failed (I guess my concern for the scratch perhaps did me in). Any thoughts on how you would play this? Would you also spin the ball in, throwing caution to the wind? OR, would you do something else? I set it up a few times afterward and came up with some creative solutions.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqs@

EDIT: Cueball was moved slightly.

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 09:10 AM
Roll up on it and try to leave them perpendicular, close and jammed up on each other.
Too many whiff or double kiss situations come up trying to take a shot.

Otherwise, if you can miss the double kiss, bank it to the diamond nearest the hole its at or even the middle diamond, but obviously, it will be off the rail some, and try to Z it to the middle of the top rail.

PROG8R
03-15-2010, 09:12 AM
I need to have my eyes checked again.

TATE
03-15-2010, 09:12 AM
This is an interesting shot that came up for me at league last night. I was struggling but so was my opponent. He missed the 9ball and left me the shot you see below. Now, the 9ball is NEAR frozen (about a hair's width off the rail). Obviously, the 9ball is not bankable in the upper-left corner. In my attempt, I tried to spin the ball in with right english and failed (I guess my concern for the scratch perhaps did me in). Any thoughts on how you would play this? Would you also spin the ball in, throwing caution to the wind? OR, would you do something else? I set it up a few times afterward and came up with some creative solutions.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw4PXoy@

I would spin it in too, aiming rail first, right english.

But if that shot is not available, since the ball is not frozen, the standard play is to roll up softly to the 9 straight on and touch it to the rail, like a double kiss. If you freeze the 9 to the rail, the other player is in trouble. Usually you get the same shot back until someone freezes it.

Chris

Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 09:14 AM
I need to have my eyes checked again. Are you sure that wont bank?

My first instinct would have been your shot, spin it in. but it sure looks like it might bank.

I am 100% certain you cannot avoid the double-kiss. It's near frozen to the rail and the cueball simply didn't have enough angle to get out of the way in time.

Fore Rail
03-15-2010, 09:20 AM
I'll try a few things out later this afternoon when I can get to a pool table.

At first glance I would say spin it in or go 3 in the side.

Big_H515
03-15-2010, 09:22 AM
If you know banks/kicks, shoot the 3 rail kick to the corner. Its higher percentage than trying to spin it in.

Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 09:23 AM
If you know banks, shoot the 3-railer. Its higher percentage than trying to spin it in.

LOL, I actually messed around with the 3-railer afterward. I don't know if I simply don't know how to hit it or if the rails play too short but it wasn't even close.

Rubyron
03-15-2010, 09:25 AM
This is an interesting shot that came up for me at league last night. I was struggling but so was my opponent. He missed the 9ball and left me the shot you see below. Now, the 9ball is NEAR frozen (about a hair's width off the rail). Obviously, the 9ball is not bankable in the upper-left corner. In my attempt, I tried to spin the ball in with right english and failed (I guess my concern for the scratch perhaps did me in). Any thoughts on how you would play this? Would you also spin the ball in, throwing caution to the wind? OR, would you do something else? I set it up a few times afterward and came up with some creative solutions.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqs@

EDIT: Cueball was moved slightly.

What's wrong with the one rail kick. Since both balls are about the same distance from the rail it is very easy to find the aiming point on the short rail. Plus, if the 9-ball is a little off the rail, you have an extra chance to make it if you hit the rail first before the nine.

sde
03-15-2010, 09:25 AM
Bank it cross side using high right with a nearly full hit. The 9 ball will double kiss back into the rail and bank to the upper side pocket.

Steve

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 09:29 AM
It actually can be banked straight back, but it's a trick shot where you load it up with inside, and your not stroking it normal, you are choking up to the front of your wrap, and you are jacking up, almost like a jump shot, and you have to hit it PERFECT, and hope the cue ball doesn't fly off the table.

Odds are against you though.

D Player
03-15-2010, 09:30 AM
Is the one-rail kick too low percentage to warrant consideration?

3andstop
03-15-2010, 09:38 AM
Fire it three rail in the side with inside english. :)

SpiderWebComm
03-15-2010, 09:40 AM
I dunno... maybe I'm being a keyboard player, but I think I cut this in with a high %.

If I don't win from here, I'm pissed.

Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 09:42 AM
Is the one-rail kick too low percentage to warrant consideration?

I have very mixed feelings about the 1-rail kickshot. It DOES give you a legitimate shot at winning but I would have to imagine that you will lose more often than not going that way. Personally, I like to avoid long-kicks as much as humanly possible even when I'm only looking for a legal hit. Also, as the shooter, I think you deserve odds that will have a positive outcome more often than not. Although kicking SHOULD be considered and kudos for providing another option to think about, it's prudent to examine the higher percentage options.

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 09:44 AM
I dunno... maybe I'm being a keyboard player, but I think I cut this in with a high %.

If I don't win from here, I'm pissed.

Maybe Jude will set it up and give you odds.

SpiderWebComm
03-15-2010, 09:45 AM
Maybe Jude will set it up and give you odds.

If it's a hair width (basically frozen) -- I'll take odds.

Step right up and form a line at the SBE.

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 09:46 AM
If it's a hair width (basically frozen) -- I'll take odds.

Step right up and form a line at the SBE.

Talk to Jude, it's his shot.

SpiderWebComm
03-15-2010, 09:49 AM
Talk to Jude, it's his shot.

I'm just saying I don't think it's a hard shot if it's basically frozen. BUT, I've been wrong with Cuetable diagrams before (hence, my keyboard-player comment in my first post).

I think for any caliber player, the cut shot is the move here.

Neil
03-15-2010, 09:51 AM
...............

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 09:51 AM
I'm just saying I don't think it's a hard shot if it's basically frozen. BUT, I've been wrong with Cuetable diagrams before (hence, my keyboard-player comment in my first post).

I think for any caliber player, the cut shot is the move here.

I see Jude making a lot of money :D

alstl
03-15-2010, 10:07 AM
I can't tell from the diagram when you can spin it in with low right. If that doesn't go I would use left english and leave the 9 on the foot rail sending the cue ball up table.

But then, I'm just a banger.

Neil
03-15-2010, 10:10 AM
..................

supergreenman
03-15-2010, 10:14 AM
I would give this shot some consideration. if you miss would end up with the CB at the head of the table and the 9 at the bottom.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqs4dbaw3dYWe3kCqs4kKSk4kYVn4kbiQ2kakA@

NewStroke
03-15-2010, 10:35 AM
Fire it three rail in the side with inside english. :)

I agree, this was my first thought when I saw the setup.

SpiderWebComm
03-15-2010, 10:46 AM
I see Jude making a lot of money :D

If you see Jude cleaning me out-- you can give me odds when you see me at SBE. You love to instigate unless you're involved.

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 10:50 AM
If you see Jude cleaning me out-- you can give me odds when you see me at SBE. You love to instigate unless you're involved.

But it's Jude's shot.
I can't very well bust you and steal what is rightfully Jude's money. LOL

12310bch
03-15-2010, 10:50 AM
Kick it in one rail. You must practice these relatively easy kicks. Otherwise
figure out a safety. The problem with that is your opponent will always be
able to make a good hit thus safe you back. Kicking this in now may be the
highest percentage shot you will see to win the game.

pt109
03-15-2010, 11:02 AM
This is an interesting shot that came up for me at league last night. I was struggling but so was my opponent. He missed the 9ball and left me the shot you see below. Now, the 9ball is NEAR frozen (about a hair's width off the rail). Obviously, the 9ball is not bankable in the upper-left corner. In my attempt, I tried to spin the ball in with right english and failed (I guess my concern for the scratch perhaps did me in). Any thoughts on how you would play this? Would you also spin the ball in, throwing caution to the wind? OR, would you do something else? I set it up a few times afterward and came up with some creative solutions.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqs@

EDIT: Cueball was moved slightly.
On a soft-railed GC i'm cutting it in rail first.On a short-railed table
i like rolling it up.If i'm playing a guy who can't tick with me i will
always roll up.I've won a lot of games where my opponent lost his
nerve and rolled away when he saw i could 'tick' all day.
Straight-rail billiard experience pays off sometimes.
If i was playing for $100 i would pay $20 to my opponent to kick
3 rails or 1 long rail.....well...Reyes could only get $2...

Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 11:02 AM
But it's Jude's shot.
I can't very well bust you and steal what is rightfully Jude's money. LOL

Wow, I go out for lunch and look at what I come back to! I honestly think it's difficult to properly gauge this shot as a proposition bet since every time you shoot it, your odds will improve. I tried cutting it as well since I've made this shot plenty of times. Upon further examination (and with the help of this thread), I've come to the conclusion that perhaps I didn't properly weigh out my options. In the immortal words of Eminem, you only get one shot.

jdxprs
03-15-2010, 11:02 AM
that ball will bank back to the corner with inside english.

Beware_of_Dawg
03-15-2010, 11:04 AM
put some APA on it.

seems to work when others do it against me ?

12310bch
03-15-2010, 11:14 AM
JDXPRS, the fourth ball , the one you missed , was when you tried
to bank this shot cross corner. :wave2: ( Sorry, couldn't resist)

Neil
03-15-2010, 11:15 AM
.............

RoryHunt
03-15-2010, 11:17 AM
I would feel a lot more comfortable with a three rail kick than a one rail kick. Also, depending on who you are playing, just rolling that thing up nice and snug to the 9 would be a way to go. If your opponent is a good kicker, then maybe not. It is pretty close to the "20" return track, with a bit more english a 3 rail is the way I would go, that or the safety.

Big_H515
03-15-2010, 11:19 AM
put some APA on it.

seems to work when others do it against me ?


I lol'd @ this

Deadon
03-15-2010, 11:22 AM
I have very mixed feelings about the 1-rail kickshot. It DOES give you a legitimate shot at winning but I would have to imagine that you will lose more often than not going that way. Personally, I like to avoid long-kicks as much as humanly possible even when I'm only looking for a legal hit. Also, as the shooter, I think you deserve odds that will have a positive outcome more often than not. Although kicking SHOULD be considered and kudos for providing another option to think about, it's prudent to examine the higher percentage options.

Jude;

The kick is not easy, its difficult because its on the rail (hair off, same). 1/2 inch off, its easier, much. Not a legit shot when ball is frozen or very close.

I would thin the 9 and send the CB up the table to the end rail. Easy, and puts the odds in your favor. But you do give the chance for the OP to win, but you said he wasn't exactly playing well.

Rolling up on it is also an excellent option. Old school 2 shot shoot out move. Especially if its on the end rail.

Mike

jdxprs
03-15-2010, 11:23 AM
JDXPRS, the fourth ball , the one you missed , was when you tried
to bank this shot cross corner. :wave2: ( Sorry, couldn't resist)

funny, but i AM correct in that ball will bank. inside english, about 3/4 of a full stroke.(full being very hard like a break)

Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 11:25 AM
Okay, I'll try to sum up as many ideas as I've seen and thought of:

Spin the hell out of it.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt3kCqt4kbig3kbKE3kImp@


Roll-up on it.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dbBs3kCqt4kXww4kXPv@


Roll-up on it again.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dakp3kCqt4kLxk4kYfF@


Kick it. 1 rail

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dbrr3kCqt1kKSj4kbid4kWSB@


Kick it. 3 rails

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dcYu3kCqt4kbUn2kQGm2karr4kbad@


Leave distance

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dJdi3kCqt4kYui4kbqT2kIOj@


Bank it with inside (avoid kiss)

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw3dcQr3kCqt4kYVo4kbiL4kCHq@


Kick Bank

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw3dcQm3kCqt4kKKl4kYem4kbpq2kBUi2kF bc@


and the Three Rail Bank Shot

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dBdm3dbaP1ddYD3kCqt4kYVl4kbiO2kL pe2karN3kSUI@



If I forgot anything, let me know.

cleary
03-15-2010, 11:31 AM
I have very mixed feelings about the 1-rail kickshot. It DOES give you a legitimate shot at winning but I would have to imagine that you will lose more often than not going that way. Personally, I like to avoid long-kicks as much as humanly possible even when I'm only looking for a legal hit. Also, as the shooter, I think you deserve odds that will have a positive outcome more often than not. Although kicking SHOULD be considered and kudos for providing another option to think about, it's prudent to examine the higher percentage options.

Anything you do here requires some guts. I think the 1 rail kick gives you the best odds. To "try" and play safe from here is more dangerous than the kick. You then leave it in their hands to win. Both require some luck, but I think the kick is the best bet. If I come to the table like this, I don't really 'expect' to win. Like stepping in the ring with Tyson, I'll go down swinging.

Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 11:34 AM
funny, but i AM correct in that ball will bank. inside english, about 3/4 of a full stroke.(full being very hard like a break)

Are you actually getting the 9ball airborn? I'm curious because this is a shot I'll play the long way and it'll typically go in the corner pocket on the fly. I still don't think I had enough room to do this, perhaps I haven't spent enough time with it or perhaps we're using different equipment.

jdxprs
03-15-2010, 11:44 AM
Are you actually getting the 9ball airborn? I'm curious because this is a shot I'll play the long way and it'll typically go in the corner pocket on the fly. I still don't think I had enough room to do this, perhaps I haven't spent enough time with it or perhaps we're using different equipment.

the 9 does not go airborne. perhaps you were actually closer to the corner than in the diagram? im setting up a little closer to the pocket than center between the pocket and the diamond. hit it hard with inside english, maybe a hair low, and you have enough room for it to go.

Jude Rosenstock
03-15-2010, 11:49 AM
the 9 does not go airborne. perhaps you were actually closer to the corner than in the diagram? im setting up a little closer to the pocket than center between the pocket and the diamond. hit it hard with inside english, maybe a hair low, and you have enough room for it to go.

I wanna say I was about a ball's width away from the corner pocket and near parallel with it.

sde
03-15-2010, 12:05 PM
Okay, I'll try to sum up as many ideas as I've seen and thought of:

Spin the hell out of it.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt3kCqt4kbig3kbKE3kImp@


Roll-up on it.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dbBs3kCqt4kXww4kXPv@


Roll-up on it again.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dakp3kCqt4kLxk4kYfF@


Kick it. 1 rail

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dbrr3kCqt1kKSj4kbid4kWSB@


Kick it. 3 rails

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dcYu3kCqt4kbUn2kQGm2karr4kbad@


Leave distance

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dJdi3kCqt4kYui4kbqT2kIOj@


Bank it with inside (avoid kiss)

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw3dcQr3kCqt4kYVo4kbiL4kCHq@


Kick Bank

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw3dcQm3kCqt4kKKl4kYem4kbpq2kBUi2kF bc@


and the Three Rail Bank Shot

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqt4dbaw4dBdm3dbaP1ddYD3kCqt4kYVl4kbiO2kL pe2karN3kSUI@



If I forgot anything, let me know.

Jude you did forget my suggestion of banking cross side.
Bank it cross side using high right with a nearly full hit. The 9 ball will double kiss back into the rail and bank to the upper side pocket.

Steve
The shot will go if you have practiced it a couple of times, of course that is not an option in a game situation, but if you try it now you will be more comfortable when it does come up during a game. It is much easier than you would think.

Steve

Steve

TSW
03-15-2010, 04:10 PM
Jude you did forget my suggestion of banking cross side.

The shot will go if you have practiced it a couple of times, of course that is not an option in a game situation, but if you try it now you will be more comfortable when it does come up during a game. It is much easier than you would think.

Steve

Steve

That's an interesting idea. Just curious, how do you avoid the scratch in the near corner with this shot? Looks like you'd be flirting with it if you banked cross-side. Can you diagram it?

sde
03-15-2010, 04:31 PM
That's an interesting idea. Just curious, how do you avoid the scratch in the near corner with this shot? Looks like you'd be flirting with it if you banked cross-side. Can you diagram it?
Sorry I don't know how to use the Wei Table to diagram the shot.

You hit the 9 ball nearly full on the right side of center. It is not a cut shot to bank and with high right the CB will double kiss the 9 ball toward the opposite side and CB will kiss back to about the first diamond on the short rail.

Steve

TX Poolnut
03-15-2010, 04:40 PM
Longrail kick

Neil
03-15-2010, 04:43 PM
That's an interesting idea. Just curious, how do you avoid the scratch in the near corner with this shot? Looks like you'd be flirting with it if you banked cross-side. Can you diagram it?

This is the way I learned the shot by accident years ago. Try and bank the one cross side. Use a little right english on it. The one will double kiss the cb back into the open table and go cross corner. Try it this way, and you will get the principle behind the shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2Aavi2PEpk2Uavi4UWKP2kEpk2kXjm@

James2003
03-15-2010, 04:53 PM
This is an interesting shot that came up for me at league last night. I was struggling but so was my opponent. He missed the 9ball and left me the shot you see below. Now, the 9ball is NEAR frozen (about a hair's width off the rail). Obviously, the 9ball is not bankable in the upper-left corner. In my attempt, I tried to spin the ball in with right english and failed (I guess my concern for the scratch perhaps did me in). Any thoughts on how you would play this? Would you also spin the ball in, throwing caution to the wind? OR, would you do something else? I set it up a few times afterward and came up with some creative solutions.

.


Well before I read any other replies. Here is what I would do. I would bank it right back to my right hand corrner pocket. Using top right and hitting the ball VERY frim. (drill it) Since there is some angle it's not a hard shot to make.

VonRhett
03-15-2010, 05:18 PM
I read most responses, but not all so pardon any redundancy.

A lot depends on the table; short-shelf wide pockets and the spin-in looks good, but 4" holes with long trays and the spin-in loses appeal.

I'm an old-school player, so I like to kick. The one-rail kick shot or the 3-rail bank into the side would be my dilemma.

-von

terhje
03-15-2010, 05:20 PM
shot 1 with right english and shot 2 without if i remember correctly.


<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/Player/?@4AUGj3PAet4UUGj4UUGq4UUOX3UbSj3kAet4kUvU4kbSQ4kW bS@4AThi3PFkm1pock4UThi4UTYS3UAfk3UasT3UTfs3kFkm4k ThQ4kbjN4kUvN4kUnO4kUeC@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="600" height="400" ></iframe>

dabarbr
03-15-2010, 05:39 PM
If the object ball is frozen to the rail I would just strike the object ball slightly on the right side from a full hit to use the kiss-back that will take the cue ball to the first diamond on the short rail. Nothing fancy is needed for this.

This will leave the object ball where it is and prevent an easy cross corner bank because of the steep angle you will leave. Maybe someone will diagram this for me on the wei table.

poolplayer2093
03-15-2010, 06:01 PM
This is an interesting shot that came up for me at league last night. I was struggling but so was my opponent. He missed the 9ball and left me the shot you see below. Now, the 9ball is NEAR frozen (about a hair's width off the rail). Obviously, the 9ball is not bankable in the upper-left corner. In my attempt, I tried to spin the ball in with right english and failed (I guess my concern for the scratch perhaps did me in). Any thoughts on how you would play this? Would you also spin the ball in, throwing caution to the wind? OR, would you do something else? I set it up a few times afterward and came up with some creative solutions.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqs@

EDIT: Cueball was moved slightly.


if you feel bold i like thinning the 9 on the short side (lower left in the picture i guess) or you could just bump the 9 to the other rail and play the simpler safe

SpiderWebComm
03-15-2010, 06:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-tcvD94Wy8

I shot through a rack trying to cut the ball. I made 10 and missed 5 and I did this drill cold. I have a gc4 with 4.5" pockets. I can't imagine kicking would be the move with this shot. If someone kicks this in more than 66%, get it on video and I'll get you drunk at the SBE.

Neil
03-15-2010, 07:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-tcvD94Wy8

I shot through a rack trying to cut the ball. I made 10 and missed 5 and I did this drill cold. I have a gc4 with 4.5" pockets. I can't imagine kicking would be the move with this shot. If someone kicks this in more than 66%, get it on video and I'll get you drunk at the SBE.

Your video showed what I stated earlier. The scratch is huge. You scratched 4 times, and came very close to scratching a number of other times. With the scratch that big in the picture, I am shooting at something else. Nothing makes me sicker than to make a good shot on the 9 and scratch. Especially when I know there is a very good chance of it happening.

cleary
03-15-2010, 07:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-tcvD94Wy8

I shot through a rack trying to cut the ball. I made 10 and missed 5 and I did this drill cold. I have a gc4 with 4.5" pockets. I can't imagine kicking would be the move with this shot. If someone kicks this in more than 66%, get it on video and I'll get you drunk at the SBE.

I'm not sure if I could cut it or kick it in 66% of the time, but I think I'll kick it in more than I'll cut it in. But thats me. You clearly cut it in pretty good. If I were to guess, I would say I would kick that ball in about 50% of the time. But like Jude said, you only get one try in a game.

TATE
03-15-2010, 07:42 PM
Frank the Barber - is this what you would do, you tricky devil? I would not be betting against you no matter what shot you made!

Ps. I choked against Gerardo because you were watching me.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PDXr3kDXr4kXxD4kSKh@

TATE
03-15-2010, 07:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-tcvD94Wy8

I shot through a rack trying to cut the ball. I made 10 and missed 5 and I did this drill cold. I have a gc4 with 4.5" pockets. I can't imagine kicking would be the move with this shot. If someone kicks this in more than 66%, get it on video and I'll get you drunk at the SBE.


On my 9' table with 4 inch corners, the kick is a very low percentage shot. Even if you marked the rail, the cue ball has to be struck dead center perfect.

Once again, equipment has to be considered in these discussions - it's too bad there isn't a standard. It's almost like were speaking different languages.

Chris

Underclocked
03-15-2010, 07:55 PM
cross bank that nine right into the upper left corner. Hit the nine just at the left edge with about 3 lbs of right handed duck butter on the cue ball. :grin:

SpiderWebComm
03-15-2010, 07:57 PM
Your video showed what I stated earlier. The scratch is huge. You scratched 4 times, and came very close to scratching a number of other times. With the scratch that big in the picture, I am shooting at something else. Nothing makes me sicker than to make a good shot on the 9 and scratch. Especially when I know ther is a very good chance of it happening.

The scratch is definitely bigger than what I thought. Regardless, I would say my make % is between 66% and 75%. Playing against someone of equal or better, you're probably 50/50 on a safety battle from here. Therefore, you have to go for it on this shot if you can make it more than 50% --- and I think this is a "lock" for 50%+.

This isn't a hard shot to make at all - it's the scratch. For the cheese, I'd load up and smooth it in. Kicking at this ball from here is not easy, imo. If someone has a camera, I'm eager to see someone kick it in more than 50% of the rack.

All in all.... this is a crap position to be in - no doubt. You don't wanna end up here. Playing safe is only the move against a weaker opponent. If I'm at the table playing someone like Neil, there's no way I'm letting him back up. If I scratch, so be it. At least I didn't let him back to the table and at least I'm the winner in the long-run. :)

cleary
03-15-2010, 08:06 PM
All in all.... this is a crap position to be in - no doubt. You don't wanna end up here. Playing safe is only the move against a weaker opponent. If I'm at the table playing someone like Neil, there's no way I'm letting him back up. If I scratch, so be it. At least I didn't let him back to the table and at least I'm the winner in the long-run. :)

100% agreed. If I have the time this weekend at SBE, I'll set it up and see my kicking percentage. Maybe is my cuetable goggles talkin', but it seems like a big pocket to me from there. Maybe not so much in person. I won't see a table til Thursday so I'll try in at the expo.

Either way, stop by the booth and say hello Dave. I believe I owe you a beer.

dabarbr
03-15-2010, 08:24 PM
Frank the Barber - is this what you would do, you tricky devil? I would not be betting against you no matter what shot you made!

Ps. I choked against Gerardo because you were watching me.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PDXr3kDXr4kXxD4kSKh@

Thanks Tate, that's exactly what I meant. I need to learn how to use that darn wei table thing.

This shot though might force my opponent to shoot away at an awkward cross bank shot because it doesn't leave many options for a safety. In critical situations I like to leave my opponent with an option for a safety.

Sorry about the Gerardo situation. How about a practice session soon?

genomachino
03-15-2010, 08:35 PM
I LIKE THIS SHOT ESPECIALLY IF THE Rails are not real true. i would shoot a double kiss hitting it to the right of center just a lttle bit so the cue ball goes back by the corner.
if you get the cue ball back by the corner or on the opposite side rail you might get another shot.
your opponent might play a safe back but you might have a better shot next time to play safe or shoot it. but you better hit it (perfect).

try it. you might like it. being aware of this type of shot also adds another club in your bag for simular shots. i've used this same shot to hook my opponent in back of balls.

practice this a little. it's not that tough.

good luck........................

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 08:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-tcvD94Wy8

I shot through a rack trying to cut the ball. I made 10 and missed 5 and I did this drill cold. I have a gc4 with 4.5" pockets. I can't imagine kicking would be the move with this shot. If someone kicks this in more than 66%, get it on video and I'll get you drunk at the SBE.

You know, this brings up an interesting point.
ESPECIALLY for all the Geno fans with the eyesight thing going on.
I'm curious.
Spidey, do you think you could actually move the shot to the other side of the table and try again?
I'm just wondering if your results would be different at all cutting it to the right, being right handed, instead of cutting it to the left, as you are doing in the video.

SpiderWebComm
03-15-2010, 09:00 PM
You know, this brings up an interesting point.
ESPECIALLY for all the Geno fans with the eyesight thing going on.
I'm curious.
Spidey, do you think you could actually move the shot to the other side of the table and try again?
I'm just wondering if your results would be different at all cutting it to the right, being right handed, instead of cutting it to the left, as you are doing in the video.

I think for 15 shots, the results would be similar. I'm comfortable with this shot either direction. I'd be interested to see how the CB would react on new cloth and diamond rails at the SBE.

I'm hoping someone else will step up and post how they make the shot (banks, kicking, etc). Superstar--- c'mon, post a video one time.

SUPERSTAR
03-15-2010, 09:21 PM
Superstar--- c'mon, post a video one time.

Completely out of the question.

But here's something to tide you over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2wmrbsDg9A

accustatsfan
03-15-2010, 09:23 PM
If the object ball is frozen to the rail I would just strike the object ball slightly on the right side from a full hit to use the kiss-back that will take the cue ball to the first diamond on the short rail. Nothing fancy is needed for this.

This will leave the object ball where it is and prevent an easy cross corner bank because of the steep angle you will leave. Maybe someone will diagram this for me on the wei table.

Frank what English do you use?

DrOnePocket
03-15-2010, 09:33 PM
Fire it three rail in the side with inside english. :)

I am gonna shoot this shot on a bar table every time. Its so easy to make once you know it

RoryHunt
03-15-2010, 09:56 PM
The scratch is definitely bigger than what I thought. Regardless, I would say my make % is between 66% and 75%. Playing against someone of equal or better, you're probably 50/50 on a safety battle from here. Therefore, you have to go for it on this shot if you can make it more than 50% --- and I think this is a "lock" for 50%+.

This isn't a hard shot to make at all - it's the scratch. For the cheese, I'd load up and smooth it in. Kicking at this ball from here is not easy, imo. If someone has a camera, I'm eager to see someone kick it in more than 50% of the rack.

All in all.... this is a crap position to be in - no doubt. You don't wanna end up here. Playing safe is only the move against a weaker opponent. If I'm at the table playing someone like Neil, there's no way I'm letting him back up. If I scratch, so be it. At least I didn't let him back to the table and at least I'm the winner in the long-run. :)


I by no means am a spectacular kicker, but I feel I am decent at it. After watching Spiders vid, I kicked at that ball 15 times, made 4. 6 more times I missed it well, and left a very difficult shot, and the other 5 I missed either leaving ball in hand or a very simple tap in.

Cutting it in or playing the safety is probably the better shot, now that I have tried it. All it makes me want to do is be better at kicking though....lol.

Atlatlien
03-15-2010, 10:41 PM
Half-ball hit on the right side of the nine. stick the nine in the center on the bottom rail and send the cue back to center on the other side with some low left english. Try to leave it tough so maybe you'll get another chance.

CreeDo
03-15-2010, 10:44 PM
I'm kicking at it. The ball is as big as you could ask for with a length of the table kick. If you don't kick at this one, what DO you kick at?

Plan B, if you don't trust the rails or you just generally play smarter than CreeDo, is to very carefully thin the left edge of it with outside spin, banking it to the foot rail and zigzagging the cue ball to leave no chance at a cut. I'll admit I should probably try this one a few times to see if that's feasible. Looks good on paper.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PCqs4dbaw4dQGk4dNde3kCqs4kasg4kbqe3kaxk1kT bf@

Plan C: very soft draw drag and just let the cue ball kiss back 2 inches. Being very careful not to let it roll to the left side of the 9 and bank it in front of the pocket.

Ratta
03-15-2010, 11:16 PM
For me there are just 2 shots worth to think about- a safety shot or make the ball with right-hand english.
This is anyway a hard question in my opinion- it is somethin different to play on your own or playing such a ball in a league-match for a team. A good test for your nerves anyway :-)

backplaying
03-15-2010, 11:42 PM
Roll up on the nine hitting just a little on the right side for the safety.Offense,I would cut it in myself. If someone tried to bank this ball three in the side or one rail in the side or try to kick it in, I would have to give up the last three and go off I guess!

3RAILKICK
03-15-2010, 11:49 PM
Jude you did forget my suggestion of banking cross side.

The shot will go if you have practiced it a couple of times, of course that is not an option in a game situation, but if you try it now you will be more comfortable when it does come up during a game. It is much easier than you would think.

Steve

Steve


I like the concept of the shot.

I have a question-does the high right keep the CB 'climbing' forward after the Double Kiss such that the CB 'kills' on the bottom rail? I ask because I'm guessing you need to hit this at a 'stun' speed. Without the top right would the CB rebound from the Dbl Kss and travel nearly the same distance as the OB? I might be afraid of leaving both balls near the side without a way of killing the CB near the bottom rail.

Cool shot.

Guys-thanks for sharing.

In general-if you're not 'goina go' -spin it in or the stiff back bank-then it's hard to kick accurately at speed-to get the balls to separate if case of a miss. The more accurate pocket-speed kicks seem to either make it or sell out.

If ducking-there's a lot of separation- overcutting the back bank near the center diamond of the end rail, and the CB to the opposite end avoiding the scratch in the upper corner. The CB is going to run. I would probably hit it too hard, 3 rail the CB and leave him straight in.

I will too often shoot when I shouldn't-here I might try to play safe. Naaaaah. I'd shoot the stiff back bank.

Thanks again

3railkick

sde
03-16-2010, 09:12 AM
I like the concept of the shot.

I have a question-does the high right keep the CB 'climbing' forward after the Double Kiss such that the CB 'kills' on the bottom rail? I ask because I'm guessing you need to hit this at a 'stun' speed. Without the top right would the CB rebound from the Dbl Kss and travel nearly the same distance as the OB? I might be afraid of leaving both balls near the side without a way of killing the CB near the bottom rail.

Cool shot.

Guys-thanks for sharing.

In general-if you're not 'goina go' -spin it in or the stiff back bank-then it's hard to kick accurately at speed-to get the balls to separate if case of a miss. The more accurate pocket-speed kicks seem to either make it or sell out.

If ducking-there's a lot of separation- overcutting the back bank near the center diamond of the end rail, and the CB to the opposite end avoiding the scratch in the upper corner. The CB is going to run. I would probably hit it too hard, 3 rail the CB and leave him straight in.

I will too often shoot when I shouldn't-here I might try to play safe. Naaaaah. I'd shoot the stiff back bank.

Thanks again

3railkick

Yes, hitting with high right will kill the CB near the end rail. I'm not sure of what YOU mean by ''stun'' speed, but it must be hit firmer than you would expect.

Steve

James2003
03-16-2010, 09:20 AM
I like the concept of the shot.

I have a question-does the high right keep the CB 'climbing' forward after the Double Kiss such that the CB 'kills' on the bottom rail? I ask because I'm guessing you need to hit this at a 'stun' speed. Without the top right would the CB rebound from the Dbl Kss and travel nearly the same distance as the OB? I might be afraid of leaving both balls near the side without a way of killing the CB near the bottom rail.

Cool shot.

Guys-thanks for sharing.

In general-if you're not 'goina go' -spin it in or the stiff back bank-then it's hard to kick accurately at speed-to get the balls to separate if case of a miss. The more accurate pocket-speed kicks seem to either make it or sell out.

If ducking-there's a lot of separation- overcutting the back bank near the center diamond of the end rail, and the CB to the opposite end avoiding the scratch in the upper corner. The CB is going to run. I would probably hit it too hard, 3 rail the CB and leave him straight in.

I will too often shoot when I shouldn't-here I might try to play safe. Naaaaah. I'd shoot the stiff back bank.

Thanks again

3railkick


When you bank this shot using high right you are slightly over banking the ball (with your aim) the high right will throw the OB off the rail back towards the pocket. This way you don't double kiss or come into the end rail way too early.

If you used any other english the OB will never be made on the one rail bank the CB will throw it off it's path if you used center ball you will double kiss.

TATE
03-16-2010, 09:50 AM
Frank what English do you use?

Franks shot has no spin - it's a double kiss instead. It's a roll up double kiss favoring the right side of the 9.


Chris

pt109
03-16-2010, 10:00 AM
Frank the Barber - is this what you would do, you tricky devil? I would not be betting against you no matter what shot you made!

Ps. I choked against Gerardo because you were watching me.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4Ibaw3PDXr3kDXr4kXxD4kSKh@

This shot and the thin hit on the pocket side leave an easy safe return.
I call these shots - Don't take my watch now,take it later -
These leaves allow me to lock you up end to end.

The_Abbott
03-16-2010, 12:09 PM
put some APA on it.

seems to work when others do it against me ?

Don't forget to mention that if you go this route you have to apologize after making it.

dabarbr
03-16-2010, 07:05 PM
This shot and the thin hit on the pocket side leave an easy safe return.
I call these shots - Don't take my watch now,take it later -
These leaves allow me to lock you up end to end.

I am curious to know what lock up safe you would play from that position. I don't see you putting the object ball back to the short rail from there.

My suggestion for that shot is just to buy myself another turn at the table and hope that I would be in better position. If you're not playing to pocket the ball then I'm happy.

dabarbr
03-16-2010, 07:10 PM
Frank what English do you use?

Like Tate said no english is needed because the cue ball is not traveling very far.

In the post by Genomachine, he said that he has used this to get behind other balls and yes it is very useful to know this shot. If you want a lot of travel on the cue ball then you need to use a little draw which will turn into follow once it comes off the object ball.

driz86
03-16-2010, 07:13 PM
It actually can be banked straight back, but it's a trick shot where you load it up with inside, and your not stroking it normal, you are choking up to the front of your wrap, and you are jacking up, almost like a jump shot, and you have to hit it PERFECT, and hope the cue ball doesn't fly off the table.

Odds are against you though.

That explains my experience at a recent tourney. I had a similar shot and didn't know how to play it and for some reason decided to go for the bank using inside and a medium stroke. It went and I told the other guy I had no idea how it went. I didn't jack up too much though, just a bit.

Deadon
03-16-2010, 08:52 PM
I am curious to know what lock up safe you would play from that position. I don't see you putting the object ball back to the short rail from there.

My suggestion for that shot is just to buy myself another turn at the table and hope that I would be in better position. If you're not playing to pocket the ball then I'm happy.

Have to disagree this time. You may well, in fact, probably will come back to the table with a more difficult choice than other possible shots at this time. Also, that 9 will come off the side rail and go up table a little from the double kiss, it could very easily leave a corner or side bank with a good safe leave. The wei diagram doesn't show what will really happen to the 9, and the lower Q ball position will take the kiss out of most banks.

Mike

TATE
03-16-2010, 09:24 PM
I am curious to know what lock up safe you would play from that position. I don't see you putting the object ball back to the short rail from there.

My suggestion for that shot is just to buy myself another turn at the table and hope that I would be in better position. If you're not playing to pocket the ball then I'm happy.

Fot you guys who don't know him, Frank the Barber wins most of the safety battles. He's known as one of the best and smartest movers in the game. In his heyday, before he had a life outside the pool room, he was spotting the strong shortstops on the west coast the 7 ball and robbing them.

Chris

dabarbr
03-16-2010, 10:14 PM
Have to disagree this time. You may well, in fact, probably will come back to the table with a more difficult choice than other possible shots at this time. Also, that 9 will come off the side rail and go up table a little from the double kiss, it could very easily leave a corner or side bank with a good safe leave. The wei diagram doesn't show what will really happen to the 9, and the lower Q ball position will take the kiss out of most banks.

Mike

My suggestion for this shot was just to make others aware of this option because it is an easy shot to operate. I'm not saying that this is what should be done but only that it is an option. I did try this a number of times on my table and the nine was kept under control tight to the rail as expected.

Table conditions and the score would dictate to me what safety I would play. I am fully aware that the shot can be banked or cut in with spin but it's nice to know all the options that are available to us so that we may have a variety to choose from.

There have been many good options suggested here by others and some that I would never consider but it's good to know that they are there.

memikey
03-16-2010, 10:22 PM
Thanks Tate, that's exactly what I meant. I need to learn how to use that darn wei table thing.

This shot though might force my opponent to shoot away at an awkward cross bank shot because it doesn't leave many options for a safety. In critical situations I like to leave my opponent with an option for a safety.

Sorry about the Gerardo situation. How about a practice session soon?

Wouldn't doubt for a nanosecond that someone of your skill can execute that exactly as diagrammed and it's a live option, but I see 3 problems with it when your opponent comes to the table.

1. It leaves a relatively easy bank back to the top left, certainly far easier than the bank option to the same pocket that Jude had originally.

2. It gives him an option of a one rail bank the length of the table which is also a much easier proposition for the opponent than the same bank was for Jude, because the different starting position of the cue ball gives a "narrower" approach angle for the cb contact on 9 that is far more likely to result in making it.

3. He can return a similar if not better safety position quite easily with a soft thin cut and cb back to the same rail.


I think the percentages on all the options that were facing Jude, including your good one, are very highly dependent on the ability level of the opponent, probably moreso than in most cases.

Hard to quantify percentages without good knowledge of the opponent's ability. My heart says make it with Spider's cut shot but my head tells me to put the 9 near the centre of the bottom rail with a fairly thin cut and take the cb with high left english off two rails to the middle of the top rail, especially if my opponent is as mentally uncomfortable with that 'middle of the rail/middle of the rail' bank shot as I am lol.

Edit....drafted before seeing your latest post above :)

dabarbr
03-16-2010, 10:43 PM
Wouldn't doubt for a nanosecond that someone of your skill can execute that exactly as diagrammed and it's a live option, but I see 3 problems with it when your opponent comes to the table.

1. It leaves a relatively easy bank back to the top left, certainly far easier than the bank option to the same pocket that Jude had originally.

2. It gives him an option of a one rail bank the length of the table which is also a much easier proposition for the opponent than the same bank was for Jude, because the different starting position of the cue ball gives a "narrower" approach angle for the cb contact on 9 that is far more likely to result in making it.

3. He can return a similar if not better safety position quite easily with a soft thin cut and cb back to the same rail.


I think the percentages on all the options that were facing Jude, including your good one, are very highly dependent on the ability level of the opponent, probably moreso than in most cases.

Hard to quantify percentages without good knowledge of the opponent's ability. My heart says make it with Spider's cut shot but my head tells me to put the 9 near the centre of the bottom rail with a fairly thin cut and take the cb with high left english off two rails to the middle of the top rail, especially if my opponent is as mentally uncomfortable with that 'middle of the rail/middle of the rail' bank shot as I am lol.

Edit....drafted before seeing your latest post above :)

For sure the option that you suggest would be my favorite if one felt comfortable in the execution of it. I don't think anyone is ever comfortable with that positon. I like leaving the cue ball where if they decided to bank the nine after that safe the cue ball must come out to mid table for a better chance of a good shot on the nine.

Spider's cut shot, although not very difficult do under most conditions, could be very chancy when you're under duress and taking heat.

memikey
03-16-2010, 10:50 PM
Yep, know exactly what you mean dabarbr.

pt109
03-17-2010, 12:06 AM
I am curious to know what lock up safe you would play from that position. I don't see you putting the object ball back to the short rail from there.

My suggestion for that shot is just to buy myself another turn at the table and hope that I would be in better position. If you're not playing to pocket the ball then I'm happy.

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you.Had a long day.
I played a lot of 5x10 snooker years ago and these leaves often
allowed me to either get the cue ball or object ball to the far
short rail (sometimes 1 or 2 rails)
Today i'm going to the room and fiddle with this.Will get back
to you unless someone beats me for my laptop.

pt109
03-17-2010, 05:26 PM
I am curious to know what lock up safe you would play from that position. I don't see you putting the object ball back to the short rail from there.

My suggestion for that shot is just to buy myself another turn at the table and hope that I would be in better position. If you're not playing to pocket the ball then I'm happy.

It didn't look like i could on the screen.
On a gc1 i could spin the cue ball two rails to the far short rail and
leave a center-center safety.On the Diamond it was tougher 'cause
of shorter rails but still do-able.
I now think this the best choice other than playing it in.
I think anyone is under-dog from this position especially if you get
whitey close to the rail.

However,going by your AZ name,i think you should CUT it in.

tsogkhuu
03-24-2010, 05:03 AM
I can't tell from the diagram when you can spin it in with low right. If that doesn't go I would use left english and leave the 9 on the foot rail sending the cue ball up table.

But then, I'm just a banger.

That's the ANSWER.

Neil
07-17-2012, 12:00 PM
............