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Luxury
03-15-2010, 06:19 PM
I played at my first BCA regional event this last weekend and have some questions and comments:

I played on a team and played a ton of races to one with some of my opponents wanting to shake hands after the game and some just wanting to say, "Nice out." Some just wanted to nod before and after some wanted to shake hands before and after.

I wondered if the Asians might be right on with the bow. A good head nod is like a bow, there are no germs involved and your hands aren't getting sticky.

Also I racked my own, broke and ran a rack in a race to one and the guy stayed seated and said, "Nice run out." and looked down at the score sheet. My captain motioned that I needed to go over and shake but I didn't. I could tell he didn't want to. It's kind of odd to shake a guys hand when he had nothing to do with anything not even the racking of the balls.

Opinions on possibilities of the evolution of just respectfully nodding at a guy and saying, "Good game." instead of literally 100 plus handshakes at a BCA event?

Luxury
03-15-2010, 06:23 PM
Also my captain played a guy who shot in the eight ball then walked over to shake hands and their captain said, "Uh you still have a stripe left on the table!"

The guy felt sick of course and their team explained that my captain who was playing him was the only one who could of told him he still had the nine on the table and kind of gave him a hard time about it.

Coaching is a loss of game so they couldn't say anything.

Thoughts?

Johnnyt
03-15-2010, 06:23 PM
You need to post this on the Adrian Monk Forum:D. Johnnyt

Luxury
03-15-2010, 06:30 PM
By the way, Glen Atwell won the singles event. Nice job.

I play with a 314 2 predator shaft and a Meucci that is getting beat up. I decided it would be nice if I got a new Predator shaft and a nice looking butt to go with it. My plan is to keep the old stick hidden in my vehicle at all times so I will never find myself having to play with a house stick ever again.

Someone mentioned a waterproof case. Any advice there?

So I saw a Lucasi butt that I really liked the look of with some 3d chrome looking rings for about $250 but didn't buy because I wondered if I should pay more for something nicer that might have a nicer hit. But isn't all the action in the shaft?

I talked to my mentor and he mentioned C4 technology in a Predator butt and I looked into it. I didn't understand it.

Should I just get a good looking butt and rely on the shaft for the feel? What percent of a difference can a butt make?

Luxury
03-15-2010, 06:36 PM
By the way,

I had a ball. We were up 12-5 in a race to 13 in our first match and we loss eight straight!

Our next match we came back and won a hill-hill thriller with an incredible shot that Joe made where he had to use inside so avoid scratching in the side as he sent the 8 down the rail and barely squeezed by the 5.

We got into the money and I made a lot of cool new friends.

DogsPlayingPool
03-15-2010, 06:41 PM
Also my captain played a guy who shot in the eight ball then walked over to shake hands and their captain said, "Uh you still have a stripe left on the table!"

The guy felt sick of course and their team explained that my captain who was playing him was the only one who could of told him he still had the nine on the table and kind of gave him a hard time about it.

Coaching is a loss of game so they couldn't say anything.

Thoughts?

I'm not quite sure I understand the situation you are explaining here but I am curious about one thing (I don't play league). If the only thing his Captain said to him was "You still have a stripe on the table", does that constitute coaching? I would think that statement falls under public knowledge rather than constitute giving advice.

What is the rule in this regard? Thanks.

Also, doesn't he lose the game anyway for illegally pocketing the 8 ball?

Kickin' Chicken
03-15-2010, 06:43 PM
It's still flu season around here and I agree, I don't like shaking everybody's hands at league night.

Bang knuckles and wish 'em well.

And keep Purell in your case, just in case. :D

Yours Sanitarily,

KC

Luxury
03-15-2010, 06:46 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand the situation you are explaining here but I am curious about one thing (I don't play league). If the only thing his Captain said to him was "You still have a stripe on the table", does that constitute coaching? I would think that statement falls under public knowledge rather than constitute giving advice.

What is the rule in this regard? Thanks.

Also, doesn't he lose the game anyway for illegally pocketing the 8 ball?

After the game their team wondered if it just would have been a ball in hand foul if they would have told him not to shoot the eight in yet. My captain called a ref over and the ref confirmed it would have been loss of game had they made him aware of the stripe still on the table.

Most of them knew it would have been a loss as soon as they said something so maybe they just hoped he would get up before he shot and notice the nine at some point or even better they may have just hoped he missed the eight. There you go. It wasn't an easy shot so they did the right thing not to say anything strategically.

DogsPlayingPool
03-15-2010, 07:03 PM
After the game their team wondered if it just would have been a ball in hand foul if they would have told him not to shoot the eight in yet. My captain called a ref over and the ref confirmed it would have been loss of game had they made him aware of the stripe still on the table.

Most of them knew it would have been a loss as soon as they said something so maybe they just hoped he would get up before he shot and notice the nine at some point or even better they may have just hoped he missed the nine. There you go. It wasn't an easy shot so they did the right thing not to say anything strategically.

But didn't he lose the game the moment he sunk the 8 ball?

Also, telling him not to shoot the 8 yet because he still has a stripe on the table is most definitely giving advice. That's a little different then telling him after the fact that he still had a stripe on the table, since there is no effect after the fact. I mean at the point he sunk the 8 ball he has already lost the game so what is the effect if his Captain THEN tells him he still had a stripe left up. Even if the penalty is only ball in hand for your Captain, nothing changes since he has given up the table already in any event.

But I'm still under the assumption that he lost the game when he illegally potted the 8 so even if he was coached isn't it kind of meaningless. He already lost the game the moment the 8 went in, before anything came out of his coach's mouth, no?

I'm probably missing something here. I had a hard day at work, forgive my denseness, Luxury. ;) As I said before, I don't play league pool so I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just want to understand the rules in this situation. Thanks.

Cuebuddy
03-15-2010, 07:07 PM
It's still flu season around here and I agree, I don't like shaking everybody's hands at league night.

Bang knuckles and wish 'em well.

And keep Purell in your case, just in case. :D

Yours Sanitarily,

KC

I am starting to like the knuckle thing, being about your vintage I am more used to seeing my boys doing it rather then myself but it makes sense. From a germ stand point I would much rather have them on my fist then on my palm and finger tips. Purell can also be used to dry your bridge hand for a smoother stroke (I have tried it and it works).

Luxury
03-15-2010, 07:07 PM
But didn't he lose the game the moment he sunk the 8 ball?

Also, telling him not to shoot the 8 yet because he still has a stripe on the table is most definitely giving advice. That's a little different then telling him after the fact that he still had a stripe on the table, since there is no effect after the fact. I mean at the point he sunk the 8 ball he has already lost the game so what is the effect if his Captain THEN tells him he still had a stripe left up. Even if the penalty is only ball in hand for your Captain, nothing changes since he has given up the table already in any event.

But I'm still under the assumption that he lost the game when he illegally potted the 8 so even if he was coached isn't it kind of meaningless. He already lost the game the moment the 8 went in, before anything came out of his coach's mouth, no?

I'm probably missing something here. I had a hard day at work, forgive my denseness, Luxury. ;) As I said before, I don't play league pool so I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just want to understand the rules in this situation. Thanks.

Yes he loses the second he illegally pockets the eight and we had no problem with them telling him about the nine after the fact. It's my fault. I had to edit my last post. I had said they had hoped he would miss the nine when I meant to say they stayed silent in hopes that he would miss the eight because then it would just be a ball in hand foul and my captain still had four balls to run.

DogsPlayingPool
03-15-2010, 07:50 PM
Yes he loses the second he illegally pockets the eight and we had no problem with them telling him about the nine after the fact. It's my fault. I had to edit my last post. I had said they had hoped he would miss the nine when I meant to say they stayed silent in hopes that he would miss the eight because then it would just be a ball in hand foul and my captain still had four balls to run.

So I'm not crazy? Thanks, Lux.

Now a question. Say he did miss the 8. Then his Captain says to him, "You still had a stripe on the table." Is that loss of game?

kyo1128
03-15-2010, 08:06 PM
I wondered if the Asians might be right on with the bow. A good head nod is like a bow, there are no germs involved and your hands aren't getting sticky.

We shake hands also brother.:smile: and bow

alphadog
03-15-2010, 08:14 PM
Dude you must be really tired.After he misses the 8 foul is called.At this point he would know about the 9.:thumbup:

Pushout
03-15-2010, 08:15 PM
Playing in league? Sorry, this never ends:rolleyes: One of the reasons I won't play in leagues is because of stuff like this and worse.

DogsPlayingPool
03-15-2010, 08:37 PM
Dude you must be really tired.After he misses the 8 foul is called.At this point he would know about the 9.:thumbup:

You are correct - MAYBE! But you are assuming the incoming player is going to call the foul.

Consider this scenario. The guy shoots at the 8 while he still has a stripe of his on the table. He misses the 8. The incoming player looks over the layout and has it pretty good with the balls in position as they are. He decides to NOT call the foul with the idea that if he doesn't happen to run out, his opponent may still not have figured out his previous error and shoot at the 8 again.

Again, I'm not intimately familiar with BCA league rules so I don't know if there is a penalty for a player to not call a foul on his opponent. Assuming there is no such penalty this scenario is a distinct possibility.

Luxury
03-15-2010, 08:55 PM
Actually Dogs you are correct that a guy might not call foul.

DogsPlayingPool
03-15-2010, 09:11 PM
Actually Dogs you are correct that a guy might not call foul.

Yeah, if you're not going to really improve your position by taking BIH, it's probably the move.

CreeDo
03-15-2010, 10:29 PM
I think as long as some effort is made to show respect, it doesn't matter what form it takes. It just has to come across as sincere and not halfhearted. I'll take a nod with a small smile over a quick dead fish handshake any day. I don't worry about the whole germ thing. The secret is to just be the dirtiest guy in there. Then you can't catch anything.

DogsPlayingPool
03-15-2010, 10:50 PM
I think as long as some effort is made to show respect, it doesn't matter what form it takes. It just has to come across as sincere and not halfhearted. I'll take a nod with a small smile over a quick dead fish handshake any day. I don't worry about the whole germ thing. The secret is to just be the dirtiest guy in there. Then you can't catch anything.

129843

Uh, sorry CreeDo. You want to use my hanky to wipe that off?:o


I'll offer my hand after any match, win or lose. If they don't want to shake it, that's their choice.

hbend
03-16-2010, 08:36 AM
Consider this scenario. The guy shoots at the 8 while he still has a stripe of his on the table. He misses the 8. The incoming player looks over the layout and has it pretty good with the balls in position as they are. He decides to NOT call the foul with the idea that if he doesn't happen to run out, his opponent may still not have figured out his previous error and shoot at the 8 again.


Chances are that if he missed the eight his team would have told him once he sat back down that he still had a stripe on the table. IIRC you are allowed to coach a player when their opponent is shooting without it being a foul.
It may have been too late at that point if his opponent ran out though:grin:

DogsPlayingPool
03-16-2010, 08:49 AM
Chances are that if he missed the eight his team would have told him once he sat back down that he still had a stripe on the table. IIRC you are allowed to coach a player when their opponent is shooting without it being a foul.
It may have been too late at that point if his opponent ran out though:grin:

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. As I mentioned, I'm not familiar with the coaching rules of league play, that's why I asked. Surely it is doubtful in league play that all of his teammates would have missed what happened as well.

NewStroke
03-16-2010, 09:00 AM
I have a hand on a stick with a 10' extension. When the person grabs it, it says "good shooting". I don't even have to get up :)

TheBook
03-16-2010, 09:29 AM
Two things that I don't understand is at the beginning of a match to tell the opponent "good luck" and after a match "good shooting" if they lose.

I always say at the beginning "To a good match" and at the end if they lost "You play a nice game" if they did or "pleasure playing you" or if they won something about the game such as "nice out" or "great game" or if it was a B and R "great shooting, maybe next time I will get a shot" or something like that.

Big_H515
03-16-2010, 10:04 AM
Two things that I don't understand is at the beginning of a match to tell the opponent "good luck" and after a match "good shooting" if they lose.

I always say at the beginning "To a good match" and at the end if they lost "You play a nice game" if they did or "pleasure playing you" or if they won something about the game such as "nice out" or "great game" or if it was a B and R "great shooting, maybe next time I will get a shot" or something like that.

Book, You are a gentlemen and a scholar.

alstl
03-16-2010, 10:12 AM
Next time after you win just tell the guy he is a worthless piece of crap and can't play worth a damn. If he is a really big guy extend your hand and then when he reaches to shake pull your hand back and walk away.

Al, here to help. No need to thank me.

Big Perm
03-16-2010, 10:24 AM
I'm flexible.....I'm more of an old school, shake hands type of guy, but if my opponent isn't, no biggie....if it's someone new, I like to meet them, shake hands before the match, extend a courtesy "good luck" before the match, get it awwwn, and then shake hands afterwards....

justadub
03-16-2010, 11:21 AM
129843


I'll offer my hand after any match, win or lose. If they don't want to shake it, that's their choice.

That's the way I handle it, too. I wash my hands plenty often enough.

ridewiththewind
03-16-2010, 02:01 PM
Two things that I don't understand is at the beginning of a match to tell the opponent "good luck" and after a match "good shooting" if they lose.

I always say at the beginning "To a good match" and at the end if they lost "You play a nice game" if they did or "pleasure playing you" or if they won something about the game such as "nice out" or "great game" or if it was a B and R "great shooting, maybe next time I will get a shot" or something like that.

Something that Blackjack said in one of his vids.....I no longer say 'good luck' at the beginning of a game/match...but rather, 'let's do this'...it's all part of the mental process of the game for me, and has helped me quite a bit, actually.

The point here being that why on earth would you wish your opponent 'good luck'...especially when you don't truly mean it? You want to win the game, right? By wishing someone 'good luck', you are already setting up your brain for possibly conceding the game.

The mental process of the game is such that if you allow for even the most slightly negative thought, it can erode the entire process eventually. Think of a dam with a small leak...it is not too far along before that leak can compromise the dam's integrity.

When the game/match is over, I will shake hands with my opponent and say 'thank you'...win or lose.

Lisa

TXsouthpaw
03-16-2010, 02:15 PM
Next time after you win just tell the guy he is a worthless piece of crap and can't play worth a damn. If he is a really big guy extend your hand and then when he reaches to shake pull your hand back and walk away.

Al, here to help. No need to thank me.

You gotta make sure too tell him his sticks a POS too. :kma:


I like the way you think AL

CreeDo
03-17-2010, 01:18 AM
On the good luck thing: I'm all for mentally amping yourself... but I think good luck falls under the category of "things we say to be nice even if we don't mean them". It's just an established ritual that says 'I care enough to show you basic politeness' ...and their automatic reply of "you too" says 'Thanks for that little show of courtesy, and here's one back atcha'

It's like Have A Nice Day after someone buys something from you.

Because it's automatic and meaningless and insincere, I don't think it can hurt anyone to say it. I certainly don't go in with a losing mindset when I say it. It's just a formality like turning on your blinker when you turn out of your driveway or saying thank you when a guy hands you your penny in change, even though you don't really care about that penny and he doesn't either.

tatcat2000
03-17-2010, 12:16 PM
I'll try to unscrew this for you. A couple of disclaimers first...

1) I'm off to the OK state tourney in a few hours. If this generates 20 other questions they'll have to wait until later.

2) What I'm putting out here is regs for the national tournament. Most state and regional BCAPL events are probably following them, but modifications may be made by the local Administrative Authorities. Below that level, what happens with coaching rules in any given league or local tournament is anyone's guess. If you really want to know, ask ahead of time and make them show it to you in writing. If they can't, run away. Run, don't walk.

To make it easier, I'll just post up the section from the Tournament Regulations for the 2010 BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships that deals with team coaching:

T6 Coaching

1. During your inning, you may not communicate with your team, and your team may not assist you in any way. Whether a coaching foul has occurred and been properly called is at the sole judgment of the referee.

2. Except as prohibited in Regulation T6.3 below, during your opponent's inning you may quietly discuss anything you wish with your team. All discussion and communication must stop immediately when your opponent's inning ends.

3. At any time, REGARDLESS OF WHICH PLAYER IS AT THE TABLE, it is a foul for any team member involved in a match but not actually playing in a game to:

a. suggest to a player in a game that they call a referee;
b. alert another player that their opponent has fouled or that coaching has occurred.

4. It is not a foul for any player involved in a match, playing in a game or not, to:

a. alert their team that the wrong player(s) are at the table;
b. summon a referee for a matter not directly related to the course of the game at the table, such as score sheet problems
c. offer encouragement or emotional support to a player at the table

5. A COACHING FOUL MAY ONLY BE CALLED BY A PLAYER INVOLVED IN A GAME OR A REFEREE. If a coaching foul occurs, and any player on the offended team who is not involved in the game calls the coaching foul before their player at the table does or alerts their player to the coaching foul, the foul is negated and play will proceed with no penalties applied.


The National office has worked long and hard to simplify the mess that coaching arguments often create and, after much discussion, has come up with an elegant solution. Please note that, per T6.5, coaching fouls cannot be called by team members of the offended from behind the rail. If a coaching foul occurs and someone from the other team replies with what is essentially another coaching foul, the two cancel each other out and you play on.

In OP's situation: if the captain had alerted the player with stripes that there was still a stripe on the table, AND player with solids called the foul, it would have been BIH for solids. In general, loss of game has not been a penalty in BCAPL play, though the regs for this event may have been different.

The complete regulations for the BCAPL Nationals are posted on the BCAPL website.
:smile:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.