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View Full Version : What is so special about Cognoscenti cues?


haminh
03-16-2010, 09:59 AM
I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues that make them have the basic price of more than 2.5k or so, given the fact that they don't have ivory on them such as other high end cues.

putt-putt44
03-16-2010, 10:24 AM
Cogs are known for their incredible playability. Last time I spoke to ''Freddy the Beard'' , he told me he was playing with a new Cog and loves it,,,Freddy has seen his share of wood over the years too and is a world class banker to boot..!!

Joe Gold is now making wrapless cues,,,freaking beautiful,,,check them out at www.Indyq.com.........

like ''Freddy '' would say ''you can thank me later''..........!!

haminh
03-16-2010, 11:20 AM
Cogs are known for their incredible playability. Last time I spoke to ''Freddy the Beard'' , he told me he was playing with a new Cog and loves it,,,Freddy has seen his share of wood over the years too and is a world class banker to boot..!!

Joe Gold is now making wrapless cues,,,freaking beautiful,,,check them out at www.Indyq.com.........

like ''Freddy '' would say ''you can thank me later''..........!!

But how come when people discussed about the best cues in terms of playability here on AZ, Cog did not come up too often. What do you prefer to have between Cog and TS?

Ken_4fun
03-16-2010, 11:46 AM
....arguably adding as much to the cue building industry as nearly any other modern maker.

While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

WINTHEDAY14
03-16-2010, 12:04 PM
Nothing special about them in my opinion

u12armresl
03-16-2010, 12:17 PM
[QUOTE=Ken_4fun;2324240]While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.


Some people will differ on this. I remember going to his shop over 10 years ago (I think that was the time frame, but I want to say closer to 15 years, maybe not)

Anyway, he makes beautiful cues and if you have ever seen his shop it's pretty incredible. Also in his vault the amount of gems he had and the way he put them into some cues was pretty cool. When I was there he was working on a cue for some B list type celeb in LA and was putting all these different gems in it, it looked very nice.

Was very pleased with his attitude, workmanship, etc. I bought a mid range cue for 3500 and couldn't make a ball with it, literally. There was a person in Indy all to happy to take it off my hands for a fraction of what I paid lol.

BilliardPhotos
03-16-2010, 12:47 PM
There is nothing special about them. Now go on with you life!

TheBook
03-16-2010, 02:47 PM
Unless they really jumped up in price since last year they were about $1300 and $1500 if you wanted the silver rings.

His cues have that mystique. They have a glass pin that some feel makes the cue perform better.

Others just like the sound of saying that they play with a Cog.

blah blah
03-16-2010, 02:55 PM
I walked in on a coworker just after he got off the phone with his girlfriend, and he was pissed. Me being another woman who had the very bad luck of walking in right then, he let loose:

"How come you women need to break a man for jewelry? Is it the cost of the diamonds that makes you think you've got him now? The pain of the price is proof of his attachment to you?!? What is UP with women and jewelry- just tell me the truth!"

There was a pause and I realized he really wanted an answer.

I shrugged and told him the truth: "It's shiny."

So I never got to hit with a Cog, but I do want one- badly, in fact. Why? It's pretty, and the rings are so shiny.

Honest.

TATE
03-16-2010, 03:55 PM
I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues



Probably by today's standards, not too much anymore because there are so many good cues, but bear in mind he innovated this style of cue design (now used by Josey and others) with CNC scrollwork in detail that had not been seen at the time.

The prices were really up there for awhile as many of his cues were going to a buyer/dealer in Japan, so his cues were hard to get. Limited supply drove prices up. This is true of a number of cue makers - then when that deal ended in Japan seveal years ago he started selling them here again.

Chris

poolplayer2093
03-16-2010, 04:06 PM
I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues that make them have the basic price of more than 2.5k or so, given the fact that they don't have ivory on them such as other high end cues.

they're overrated imo. the plane jane ones are worth the dough but the inlayed ones are way overpriced

putt-putt44
03-16-2010, 04:51 PM
I think Scott Frost uses one ,,,,,,,,??

woody_968
03-16-2010, 05:08 PM
I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues that make them have the basic price of more than 2.5k or so, given the fact that they don't have ivory on them such as other high end cues.

Ive always wondered why a LOT of cues sell for what they do :o

Ive never had the chance to spend enough playing with a Cog to comment on how well they hit, but I did have the opportunity to spend some time around Joey and can tell you he was a blast to hang out with :thumbup:

Not that that effects the value of a cue.

Woody

Dakota Cues
03-16-2010, 05:12 PM
they're overrated imo. the plane jane ones are NOT EVEN worth the dough but the inlayed ones are way overpriced

I've played with 3. Two were ebony, and one was a bacote.

While the craftsmanship was great, the play was sup-par.

I could name off about a dozen cuemakers that, not only make a better playing cue, but do so at a MUCH more reasonable price.

poolplayer2093
03-16-2010, 05:23 PM
I've played with 3. Two were ebony, and one was a bacote.

While the craftsmanship was great, the play was sup-par.

I could name off about a dozen cuemakers that, not only make a better playing cue, but do so at a MUCH more reasonable price.

you said that way better than i did. there're plenty of cue makers right here on az that can make you a cue that'll look as good if not better and will for sure play better.

bryan mordt, masonh, varney (yeah i'm not a fan of his personally but i've hit with a few of his cues and dollar for dollar i'd say they're the better cue)

even the guy that made the deano cue play better imo. i think i just don't like the long taper. the shafts still play stiff but the taper seems too long for me

Tokyo-dave
03-16-2010, 05:28 PM
The ones that I've played with left a little to be desired when it came to playability. Let's just say "less that sensative?" Hard to explain, but every Coc owner that I know that also enjoys the way their cues play has done some kind of tweaking with the tapers on the shafts. Straight out of the box? Not for me. However, (and I've said this before) along with Josey, and Bobby Hunter, some of the only CNC inlayed and 'overlayed' cues that I consider appealing and tastefull.
dave

kath13
03-16-2010, 10:19 PM
While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

Obviously Ken you are entitled to your own opinion as we all are. With that said, I would like to bring to your attention a few facts about Cog's. Silver stitch ring and the G10 pin. Gold was doing these when no one else was doing this. Now start counting how many cue-makers have followed in his footsteps. His inlay work is impeccable.

My Cog and I will be happy to play you. I won't give you the 7 and out like you asked, but I will be happy playing you with the wild 8. You CAN'T possibly consider yourself a barometer for the playability of any cue at your level of play. I'll be waiting for your reply after you have had a group conference on how best to reply back to me. lol

JimmyRayK
03-16-2010, 10:50 PM
I bought several in his early days. Until I met him in person and based on his personality, I'll never buy another. No matter what the price is.

I'd rather play with a $30 pawn shop cue.

What's so special??...............in my opinion.................nothing!!

Jimmyrayk

philw
03-16-2010, 11:55 PM
I bought several in his early days. Until I met him in person and based on his personality, I'll never buy another. No matter what the price is.

I'd rather play with a $30 pawn shop cue.

What's so special??...............in my opinion.................nothing!!

Jimmyrayk

Inquiring minds want to know! Please add some details.

haminh
03-17-2010, 12:32 AM
While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken


Do you mind sharing with me what is the best player in terms of playability that you have been played with?

haminh
03-17-2010, 12:38 AM
they're overrated imo. the plane jane ones are worth the dough but the inlayed ones are way overpriced

I thought the same. I managed to hit some balls with a Cog yesterday but I was not really impressed in terms of playability. It is a good looking cue but not as good as some others such as RH. For me it did not look fancy at all given the fact that it closed to 3k and no ivory or such things could be found anywhere on the cue. But the sound when it hit the ball was good though.

JB Cases
03-17-2010, 05:25 AM
I've played with 3. Two were ebony, and one was a bacote.

While the craftsmanship was great, the play was sup-par.

I could name off about a dozen cuemakers that, not only make a better playing cue, but do so at a MUCH more reasonable price.

The above post is the kind of post I get reamed for.

I think playability is subjective. I have owned three Cogs and all of them played great - for me. They didn't however feel like my Joss West or my Scruggs which I liked in a different way.

To me the Cogs were like a different brand of sports car. They were the Porsche to my Corvette in the Tim Scruggs.

As to price, well I used to think that Joey's cues were overpriced.

BUT after visiting him at his shop and seeing the amount of care he puts into EVERY aspect of construction and some of the details I can't disclose on this forum because they are things he developed for reasons of his own, after being there and seeing that and spending time with him I am convinced that he has earned the right to put whatever price tag he wants on the things he makes.

It's not about the inlays and gems for Joey Gold, it's about how the cue plays for him.

I guess it's one of those things that you just have to feel for yourself. I was fortunate enough to aquire a few of my Cogs when the price was around $5-600 for plain janes and $1200 for a basic inlaid model.

I definitely would not advise anyone to get their nose open and go off on a Cog just because of the price tag if they are not familiar with the work. But there are plenty of people out there who know Joey's work and appreciate it enough to keep buying at Joey's prices.

As an example I wouldn't run out and buy a Rolex or Patek Phillipe just because they are pricey. I'd have to do my homework and figure out what I wanted to invest in. Unless of course I was so rich and careless that it didn't matter to me.

But it is definitely not right to say that any particular brand is "better" or equivalent to a Cog in terms of playability or value. I have been in places where I couldn't move a Cognoscienti for $50 and other places where people knew them and were willing to pay a premium to get one.

I have played with a lot of cues in my time. There isn't much that plays like a Cog. I personally feel that this is one cue that stands on it's own and apart from others in terms of "hit". Its not for everyone and is definitely non-traditional in some aspects of the construction which affect the feel of the cue. At one time I had more than 100 cues on the wall from Adams to Scruggs and could pick any of them to play with and the Cog was what stayed in my case most of the time.

So count me as someone who loves the way a Cog hits.

Obi-Wan Ke9ball
03-21-2010, 05:04 PM
While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

I was there the day Joey came through Terre Haute, and if memory serves correctly (as it always does) you were swinging from his nuts and wanted to buy one. Apparently, you didn't as you have nothing nice to say and would rather bash him. For a guy who "chicken wing's" his outside english shots, I think anyone who trusts your opinion on how a cue plays is as big of a fish as you. Learn to play with one cue you coward, and throw some money into it rather than piss your money away on used way warped cues. And for what it's worth (I don't use acronyms like you, little girl) you need more than the 7 from that kath13. Have fun losing more hair replying to me.

Obi-Wan Ke9ball
03-21-2010, 05:07 PM
There is nothing special about them. Now go on with you life!

Hence why you only take pictures. Nut up and play foo.

eyeheartcues
03-21-2010, 05:22 PM
Joe makes the best cue on the market. He, in 20 years, hasn't changed his construction techniques. The top imitated cuemker would have to be Joe, hands down. Silver stitching - most replicated ringwork. G-10 pin - more and more cuemakers are using since he "lost the patent" (never had a patent, but people didn't know where to get it). His cue is a half an inch shorter than most and in inch shorter than the rest, but that half inch doesn't matter to true pool players. I would rather spend the money on a flawless piece of equipment from a quality cuemaker. His balance point and shaft taper is perfectly consistent from cue to cue. Every Cognoscenti cue plays exactly the same, sans the Cogs with predator shafts. I bought mine because of how it played. I've been in pool for a lifetime and the taper he uses has been called "old school". I've seen "old birds" pick up my cue and run better than any "young cat" plays with their mass production with laminated shaft. All in all, the best way to answer your questoin is the craftsmanship and quality.

Thecoats
03-21-2010, 05:26 PM
I have had approximately 14 cognoscenti cues and I think for the most part they were all good players. I have owned them from the entry level plain jane ones all the way up to an ivory and silver loaded 8k Ebony monster. Maybe it is me but I think the plain ones played a little better than the really fancy ones. I think they are great players and I have nothing bad to say about them, sure you can get a less expensive player from many cue makers, but if you want a well built cue that puts a lot of action on the ball I think Cogs are up there with any other cue and I have owned just about all of them, Tasc, Searing, Scruggs, Josey, McWorter, McDaniel, Schick, Tad, Gina, JW old and new and many many others. I am a 20+ year cue swapping whore.

-don

skins
03-21-2010, 06:04 PM
with respect to all here, ANYONE who has an egregiously negative opinion of Joe's cues, has either not spent time in his shop and actually witnessed the creation of them, has a hidden bias, ignorance, a personal issue that has nothing to do with the truth of his craft, or not enough knowledge or ability to know any difference....there's a reason the tag line to his cues is "Precision Billiard Instruments"......a loose but accurate interpretation of the name "Cognoscenti" is "For those who know the difference"....too many do not....

skins ---------- is among those who know the difference........

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 06:47 PM
Do you mind sharing with me what is the best player in terms of playability that you have been played with?

My Gus would be near the top. I find that the old Kersenbrocks and Franklin Southwests almost without fail have been great players. As you can see in my signature line my cues I play and own (at this time). If you see me hanging on a cue, I really like it and it plays well (other than the Rambow that I have for other reasons). I have traded away great playing cues too, but if hang on to a cue its a great player or I send it down the road.

I commission a couple cues built for me each year. I would never consider buying a Cog cue. As some has mentioned above, I have never been impressed with his cues. His cues seems to be a plain cue with a CNC cut out that is replaced with a CNC inlay. I have never seen a veneered cue from Joey, and I am not saying I have seen everything he has done.

For the last couple years, I have been playing with a old Josswest, pretty simple cue 4 point, four veneer, no inlays, steel joint (I prefer ivory usually). I have one original shaft, and a shaft made by Rick Howard. Three reasons why I play with it. One, Rick made me a great replacement shaft and it plays great. Two, I think these old JW cues way undervalued and this one is really neat looking cue. Finally, its a really simple cue that "fits" me (57"), its the simpliest cue I own and for those guys in the know about old cues, they all like to take a look at it.

Dollar for dollar, I think Rick Howard, and Andy Gilbert cues are the best playing cues for the dollar. The best playing cue I ever owned was a Rick Howard cue that was ebony on ebony with a blue, black, blue veneer. It has an ivory joint, ivory ferrelles and Moori soft tips. I sold it to get something else but was impressed with it as far as workmanship and playability. It was by far one of the least expensive cues I have ever owned.

My favorite cuemaker is Bill Schick, but while Bill cues are the most precise and perfect, the hit IMO is not the best I have ever hit with but very very good. My Bill Schick cue is my favorite cue I own, followed by the Gus. It took me about a year to get the Schick in a number of trades, etc. The Gus took (2) cues and quite a bit of cash.;)

I am a different cat, I let anyone hit with any of my cues. Like my friend Fatboy, I believe cues are meant to be enjoyed. If you dont agree with my views on cues then that is okay too. If everyone thought the same thing it would be a boring place.

One other story, Dickie Todd is the owner of the best poolroom here in Paducah. He plays with a Cog and really loves it. Joey made it exactly as Dickie asked, it weighs 17 oz and has a 14mm shaft. Dickie loves it. :confused:

I wish everyone the best of rolls,

ken

cbaumann212
03-21-2010, 06:49 PM
While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

I think you're blatant knock on his cues is despicable for a so-called salesman. Joey could give you the 5 out in playing pool or knowledge of cuemaking. If you only knew.

cuesblues
03-21-2010, 07:00 PM
I own 2-Cog's and they are exceptional cues.
I've heard a couple of people speak negatively about the playability of a Cog, but they haven't hit with the Cog's I own.
I love the way these cues play.
I don't even like to let people hit with them because I end up prying it out of their hands.
Even the pickiest people I know.


http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/cuesblues/Cognoscenti/Cognoscenti014-1.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/cuesblues/Cognoscenti/Cognoscenti015-1.jpg


http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/cuesblues/Cognoscenti/Cognoscenti024-1.jpg

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 07:04 PM
I was there the day Joey came through Terre Haute, and if memory serves correctly (as it always does) you were swinging from his nuts and wanted to buy one. Apparently, you didn't as you have nothing nice to say and would rather bash him. For a guy who "chicken wing's" his outside english shots, I think anyone who trusts your opinion on how a cue plays is as big of a fish as you. Learn to play with one cue you coward, and throw some money into it rather than piss your money away on used way warped cues. And for what it's worth (I don't use acronyms like you, little girl) you need more than the 7 from that kath13. Have fun losing more hair replying to me.



I never met Joey Gold in Terre Haute. I missed meeting Bobby Hunter as well. I did meet Joey in Louisville at the Derby, but I think that was after he had came to Terre Haute to meet some of his old "friends".

So maybe your memory is in error.

If I get asked my opinion, I will give it. I have never lied.

As far as your other comments, whatever you need to make you happy I guess.

Ken

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 07:13 PM
I think you're blatant knock on his cues is despicable for a so-called salesman. Joey could give you the 5 out in playing pool or knowledge of cuemaking. If you only knew.

I am not a cue salesman. I buy and sell alot of cues, yes, usually make 10 cue trades a year.

So to prove how great Cog cues are you want me to play Joey? :confused:

If I only knew, show me a cue that isnt entirely CNC ? I didnt say I have seen every Cog, but the ones I have seen were a made either with no inlays or with a CNC generated one.

Ken:boring2:

Obi-Wan Ke9ball
03-21-2010, 07:19 PM
Ken, you never "played" with one, all you've done is "tried one out". And your last reply is still an ignorance driven reply that is simply proof that you are nothing more than a stroke challenged bag of ignorant. Actually PLAY with a cue, don't hit a ball with your chicken wing and make a decision based on that. He has nothing that you want; we get it, don't beat the dead horse any more. Tell me how you make a pool cue Ken? You have no idea what it takes. Till the day you can say that you've made thousands of cues that have ALL sold and did that in 20 years, just keep your insults to yourself.

kath13
03-21-2010, 07:38 PM
My Gus would be near the top. I find that the old Kersenbrocks and Franklin Southwests almost without fail have been great players. As you can see in my signature line my cues I play and own (at this time). If you see me hanging on a cue, I really like it and it plays well (other than the Rambow that I have for other reasons). I have traded away great playing cues too, but if hang on to a cue its a great player or I send it down the road.

I commission a couple cues built for me each year. I would never consider buying a Cog cue. As some has mentioned above, I have never been impressed with his cues. His cues seems to be a plain cue with a CNC cut out that is replaced with a CNC inlay. I have never seen a veneered cue from Joey, and I am not saying I have seen everything he has done.

For the last couple years, I have been playing with a old Josswest, pretty simple cue 4 point, four veneer, no inlays, steel joint (I prefer ivory usually). I have one original shaft, and a shaft made by Rick Howard. Three reasons why I play with it. One, Rick made me a great replacement shaft and it plays great. Two, I think these old JW cues way undervalued and this one is really neat looking cue. Finally, its a really simple cue that "fits" me (57"), its the simpliest cue I own and for those guys in the know about old cues, they all like to take a look at it.

Dollar for dollar, I think Rick Howard, and Andy Gilbert cues are the best playing cues for the dollar. The best playing cue I ever owned was a Rick Howard cue that was ebony on ebony with a blue, black, blue veneer. It has an ivory joint, ivory ferrelles and Moori soft tips. I sold it to get something else but was impressed with it as far as workmanship and playability. It was by far one of the least expensive cues I have ever owned.

My favorite cuemaker is Bill Schick, but while Bill cues are the most precise and perfect, the hit IMO is not the best I have ever hit with but very very good. My Bill Schick cue is my favorite cue I own, followed by the Gus. It took me about a year to get the Schick in a number of trades, etc. The Gus took (2) cues and quite a bit of cash.;)

I am a different cat, I let anyone hit with any of my cues. Like my friend Fatboy, I believe cues are meant to be enjoyed. If you dont agree with my views on cues then that is okay too. If everyone thought the same thing it would be a boring place.

One other story, Dickie Todd is the owner of the best poolroom here in Paducah. He plays with a Cog and really loves it. Joey made it exactly as Dickie asked, it weighs 17 oz and has a 14mm shaft. Dickie loves it. :confused:

I wish everyone the best of rolls,

ken


Sigh... You are entitled to an opinion, it's not the opinion, it's the way you state your opinion that I take offense to. I have had several cues and just because I no longer own them, doesn't mean that you will find me on a pool forum bashing them when a thread pops up about that cue maker. and, you have never even owned a Cog.

As far as your statements about them "His cues seems to be a plain cue with a CNC cut out that is replaced with a CNC inlay. I have never seen a veneered cue from Joey, and I am not saying I have seen everything he has done." You really don't get it and one thing I learned in a pool room is never wise up the sucker and friend, that's what you are.

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 07:41 PM
Ken, you never "played" with one, all you've done is "tried one out". And your last reply is still an ignorance driven reply that is simply proof that you are nothing more than a stroke challenged bag of ignorant. Actually PLAY with a cue, don't hit a ball with your chicken wing and make a decision based on that. He has nothing that you want; we get it, don't beat the dead horse any more. Tell me how you make a pool cue Ken? You have no idea what it takes. Till the day you can say that you've made thousands of cues that have ALL sold and did that in 20 years, just keep your insults to yourself.

I have never made an insult.

I just related that I have never seen anything that wasnt CNC on a Cog cue. I feel exactly the same on the Siegal cues. (Dont want to open a second can of worms).

I feel the same way about new Schon verses old Schon cues. I prefer the older ones with sharp points.

I have "hit" several different cues, and I dont have to play with them for years know if I like them or not.

I still stand by my original post, I do not think Cog cues are "special". While some may think silver stitch rings are significant, I do not. Yes, the pin Joey uses is different from everybody else (I agree he was the first to use it), but IMO, I dont think that is significant as the contribution to cuemaking as Kersenbrock, or several other cuemakers.

These are my opinions, you can have yours, these are mine. When asked, I will share my opinion.

Ken

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 07:47 PM
You really don't get it and one thing I learned in a pool room is never wise up the sucker and friend, that's what you are.

Which poolroom would that be? How's that working out for ya? :eek:

Ken

kath13
03-21-2010, 07:59 PM
Which poolroom would that be? How's that working out for ya? :eek:

Ken

Well, well, well. Classy guy, that's what you are!

You, like Napoleon, have an inflated sense of self-worth.

12squared
03-21-2010, 08:20 PM
Over the last 16 years I have owned and played with maybe 5-6 Cogs. My favorite was a bocote plain jane from about 14/15 years ago. This cue played the quite games like 1-pocket & straight pool really well - I mean really well: great feel and control at soft to medium speed shots w/spin or not. I didn't feel it held up as well on the hard (speed) shots that you may commonly need in 9-ball. But with that said, Billy Incardona played with a Cog for years and was amung the top in 9-ball, it must have played OK.

Because Cogs were (maybe still are) 57 1/2", it also helped me make a transition to a 58" cue since I used to play with a 57" Schrager for many years adn before that a 57" Joss from '72. I also thing the workmanship is really good as well. You would have to try it to see if it's the right cue for you.

Dave

Scott Lee
03-21-2010, 08:24 PM
Ken...The fact that you "diss" CNC just shows that you know nothing about cue construction. You're making judgement calls on something you just personally don't like (which is an opinion...and to which you're entitled). That said, CNC cues don't PLAY any different than sharp point cues. The playability (as JB mentioned), is extremely subjective from person to person, and is based on how the cue is constructed...not how the points are "installed" in the cue. For your information, regardless of whether points are CNC or 'hand-cut', they still have to be HAND-INLAID...which if you had ever been to Joe's shop, you'd understand how difficult it is to put some of the elaborate scrollwork points is (I own the first split Shiseido point cue, and it is one of my prized possessions). I'm in the camp (like several other knowledgeable cue owners here) that Joe's cues play like nothing else, and I've owned dozens of cues, including Balabushka, Southwest, old Gina, JW, and Szamboti (among many others). The Cog has always been my favorite...and it's the "hit" that, for me, makes it favored to me. Forget about the dazzling designs that Joe has come up (and some others have tried to copy). Opinions are like a-holes...every has one, and many of them stink (but we're all entitled to our own). :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I have never made an insult.

I just related that I have never seen anything that wasnt CNC on a Cog cue. I feel exactly the same on the Siegal cues. (Dont want to open a second can of worms).

I feel the same way about new Schon verses old Schon cues. I prefer the older ones with sharp points.

I have "hit" several different cues, and I dont have to play with them for years know if I like them or not.

I still stand by my original post, I do not think Cog cues are "special". While some may think silver stitch rings are significant, I do not. Yes, the pin Joey uses is different from everybody else (I agree he was the first to use it), but IMO, I dont think that is significant as the contribution to cuemaking as Kersenbrock, or several other cuemakers.

These are my opinions, you can have yours, these are mine. When asked, I will share my opinion.

Ken

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 08:40 PM
Ken...The fact that you "diss" CNC just shows that you know nothing about cue construction. You're making judgement calls on something you just personally don't like (which is an opinion...and to which you're entitled). That said, CNC cues don't PLAY any different than sharp point cues. The playability is based on how the cue is constructed...not how the points are "installed" in the cue. For your information, regardless of whether points are CNC or 'hand-cut', they still have to be HAND-INLAID...which if you had ever been to Joe's shop, you'd understand how difficult it is to put some of the elaborate scrollwork points is (I own the first split Shiseido point cue, and it is one of my prized possessions). I'm in the school (like several other knowledgeable cue owners here) that Joe's cues play like nothing else, and I've owned dozens of cues, including Balabushka, Southwest, old Gina, JW, and Szamboti (among many others). The Cog has always been my favorite...and it's the "hit" that, for me, makes it that to me. Forget about the dazzling designs that Joe has come up (and some others have tried to copy). Opinions are like a-holes...every has one, and many of them stink (but we're all entitled to our own). :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott -

You too are entitled to your opinion as well. I am not "diss" anything.

Please reread the OP, he asked what was special about Cog cues. I replied that I have not seen any of them that were not CNC. I have "hit" with several of them. IMO, again for about the 10 time, IMO, I do not think they are special.

Everytime someone thinks I am down on COG cues, hell there are things I dont like on alot of cues.

Gina, I have owned a few of these, I hate that the outside "venner" is rounded. Southwest cues seem to have only minor minor differences (rings) and wood selection.

Im not saying that laying in the CNC in pocket that was cut with a CNC isnt difficult, but IMO but to me that isnt what I would call special.

If you think they are the greatest since sliced bread, great. I havent insulted anyone or anything.

Ken

1on1pooltournys
03-21-2010, 08:52 PM
Ragu Cues are far more superior than any cue I have ever played with. The exotic blend of spices combined with the finest woods make the cue playability superior to any cue on the market.

Furthermore, Ragu Cues are designed solely on XRay machines and have innovated the cue making business by using the new kryptonite 3/4-14 thread. The points are designed with a unique Sharpie pen and are delicately inserted within the cue while smoking two joints to be followed by smoking two more.

I have played with all the cues mentioned above and they do not compare to Ragu Cues. I would put Ragu Cues right up there with Guz and Ernie, which are my next two favorite makers.

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 08:55 PM
[QUOTE=1on1pooltournys;2331966]while smoking two joints to be followed by smoking two more.
[QUOTE]

While not your line, (and I know the original) I do like that line.

Ken

Ken_4fun
03-21-2010, 08:59 PM
Ragu Cues are far more superior than any cue I have ever played with. The exotic blend of spices combined with the finest woods make the cue playability superior to any cue on the market.

Furthermore, Ragu Cues are designed solely on XRay machines and have innovated the cue making business by using the new kryptonite 3/4-14 thread. The points are designed with a unique Sharpie pen and are delicately inserted within the cue while smoking two joints to be followed by smoking two more.

I have played with all the cues mentioned above and they do not compare to Ragu Cues. I would put Ragu Cues right up there with Guz and Ernie, which are my next two favorite makers.


Is that the cue Watchez made you?

ken

$TAKE HOR$E
03-21-2010, 09:38 PM
Yikes, reading old posts sometimes makes you realize they made little sense....lol

kath13
03-21-2010, 10:04 PM
That was a very nice looking cue he made you and im glad you like it. I think sometimes peoples opinions come out pretty strong when they have a certain feeling for something and a lot of times people take it to be a knock or jab at them. You are very partial to Joey and his cues just the same as I am to Rick Howards cues and lots of other people are to their favorite cuemaker. Its funny how a trend gets started like when Rick came out with the Mace j/b, which is a little different than rings or pins...................jk

"When does Kathy want to give Ken the 7."




Really? I took offense? lol He did knock the cues and I didn't agree with his reasoning behind it. Of which I'm not the only person. Now, I think this thread has run its course, but I'm still feeling a bit feisty. Ken's a big boy, he can handle himself in any way that he chooses. If he wants to play some and you want to back him, well then, let's go. Since I don't know who Obi is, he doesn't get the luxury of making my games for me. I put my offer out there in my first post, Ken didn't reply, I let it go. If you want to make a game, let's talk. I'm sure I can find a stakehorse as well. In fact, I'll just make a call to the cue maker in question so he can enjoy the show as well. Bring some popcorn and your bank roll, I'm ready to go when you and Ken are. :)

$TAKE HOR$E
03-21-2010, 10:37 PM
Old thread............

watchez
03-21-2010, 11:18 PM
Ragu Cues are far more superior than any cue I have ever played with. The exotic blend of spices combined with the finest woods make the cue playability superior to any cue on the market.

Furthermore, Ragu Cues are designed solely on XRay machines and have innovated the cue making business by using the new kryptonite 3/4-14 thread. The points are designed with a unique Sharpie pen and are delicately inserted within the cue while smoking two joints to be followed by smoking two more.

I have played with all the cues mentioned above and they do not compare to Ragu Cues. I would put Ragu Cues right up there with Guz and Ernie, which are my next two favorite makers.


I don't do drugs so it is great that I am now outed for having a partner in the buidling of my cues. Oh well - lots of builders, like Scruggs etc have been made with partnerships.

cuedicts
03-22-2010, 04:54 PM
Wow, thought I would read some intresting thoughts on cogs but the thread seems to have taken a wrong turn . I have owned many cogs , I think the finish holds up very well and I have not seen even one cue with a warped butt. I have had a few with a slight shaft wobble but not unplayable.
matt

PunchOut
03-23-2010, 07:20 PM
my cog was arguably the best playing cue i have owned...and i have had 3 TS cues.....we all have to remember everyone preceives the hit of a cue differently..

mrinsatiable
04-06-2010, 11:13 AM
I've had cogs, sw, jmw, tucker, scruggs, omega dpk and several other cuemaker brands. The cognoscenti played just as good or better than most cues I've had. I've also hit with other peoples cogs as well. and the playability has been very consistent. Switching between cogs is almost pointless because they all play identical.

The balance and construction quality is remarkable.

Cosmetically Cogs are well known for their plane jane cues and floating points. you don't buy cogs for their veneer work. Because his signature design doesn't incorporate that.

similar to a Sugar Tree or Keith Josey each cue of these cuemakers have something different that separates them from the pack and Joey Gold has done that with the silver stitches, g-10 pin, and floating point inlays. All three are being imitated now a days.

On top of that many pro champions have also played and owned cogs.

Keep in mind i have not hit with any newer cogs with the black g-10 pin. As with any cue the shaft makes a world of difference and I have a phenomenal cog shaft.

RackRunner
05-02-2010, 10:31 PM
This was a very entertaining thread.
I think I'll buy a Cognoscenti tomorrow...

kdeblanc
05-03-2010, 08:04 PM
I'm with all the other Cog fans. I had a plain Cocobolo Cog that played awesome. Sad to say that I lost it to Hurricane Katrina. She took everything in my house, but I was most upset about my Cog. I will hopefully get another in the future. I bought a plain cocobolo Woodworth with the g10 pin because it was only $450, but it doesn't replace my old Cog.

scdiveteam
06-22-2010, 12:59 AM
Hi,

Just for the record, I grew up with Joey and it has been my experience that Joe is one of the most talented people I have ever met. When he starts something and puts his mind to it he excels to a top level of achievement.

Example: When he was a teenager he bought a basket case Harley motorcycle and built it into a custom bike. The first bike he built made the cover of Chopper magazine. Joey is a master painter and this was his roots.

When he got into cue making I knew he would reach an elite level. Joe is not a genius, but he is one of the most anal perfectionists I have ever met.

Like Cogs or not the mans work and contributions speak for themselves.

People don't pay $ 7500.00 for cues that are not in demand. Even in this bad market Joe's cues bring big dollars.

Rick G.

LAlouie
06-22-2010, 09:54 AM
I like the COG- hit. It's very stiff and sharp. But I also think they're over-priced a lot. Most custom cues are priced by getting exotic with their design work. I find the COGs no different than the Josey's in this respect. He must have a terrific demand for his cues to justify the pricing.

oldgame
07-25-2010, 04:33 PM
I've played with a Cognoscenti for over ten years and I love the way it hits. I own several cues and hit with alot of others and nothing plays better than my Cog. I cannot believe all of the negative comments about this cue. I can only imagine the negative comments I will recieve when I'll tell you that I also love the way my Meucci hits.

sugeknight
07-25-2010, 10:43 PM
my cog was arguably the best playing cue i have owned...and i have had 3 TS cues.....we all have to remember everyone preceives the hit of a cue differently..

was that the pj ebony one with the kinda maroon reddish leather wrap? I wanted to cop that real bad.

I also heard somewhere that the old green g-10 pin cues play better than the new black ones. Im not sure if theres any truth to this though.

JB Cases
07-26-2010, 12:27 AM
Of the many cues I have owned only three brands LEAP to mind as cues I truly REGRET selling based solely on how they played.

1. My Runde Schon
2. My Scruggs
3. My Cogs.

As to the price. If you're the type of person who counts inlays to determine price then Cogs are way over priced.

If you value something special that is constructed to a very high degree of precision. Something where every internal part fits perfectly together and is mated with the part next it using the absolute perfect method (can't disclose the details) - then the Cog is worth every penny and more.

As I said earlier I once thought that any competent factory could reverse engineer a Cog and build it exactly the same. After visiting Joey's shop and listening to him explain the HOW and WHY he puts cues together the way he does I now know that it would be next to impossible for anyone else to figure it out without Joey explaining what he did.

Rtoron
09-03-2012, 01:09 PM
All this talk about cues. Cues are generally built by what the cuemaker feels is a good cue. It is our job to sort thru the mess and find one we like. I used to play golf and was never satisfied with the clubs I owned. I solved the problem, I built my own. I have had many cues just because I like cues. I solved the problem again. I built my own cue. In fact, I built a lot of cues and sold them. The cues I build I work with them until I feel they are right. I have cues I have built and I have other cues also. Why? Because I just like cues. If a cue is not too heavy, I can get used to it. A decent player knows what the cue will do and adapts to the cue. That cue isn't going to change for you so you have to change for it. A good player can do this. End of story.

Pushout
09-03-2012, 02:22 PM
All this talk about cues. End of story.

Also, thread is two years old;)

Tokyo-dave
09-03-2012, 06:11 PM
I spent the better part of 20 years living in Japan and working in the billiard supplies industry, and Cogs (their popularity and pricing), as well as a few other well known makers in my opinion, are a direct result of the Japanese market influence, and most of all Lucky and his dealings with these select makers. I'm not familiar with the deal he had with Joe of Cog, but I do know of other deals he had with other makers. Most of these deals involved these makers producing cues only for Lucky. In other words, he would tie up a a certain maker into an agreement where anything and everything that came out of the guys shop went to Lucky only. So, for a few select makes of higher end cues, there was a point in time where the only way to get one brand new, was to get one from Lucky, and at whatever price he decided to tag it with.
I remember seeing Cogs at his shop with a price tag of $20K. And, they were selling!
Now as far as playability, Cogs were a very popular cue in the mid 90's, and basically that popularity came as a direct result of the way Lucky marketed his stuff. The Japanese are a very passive consumer, and there is this mentality in Japan where the more expensive an item is, the more superior it is. Obviously that way of thinking has drastically changed as a result of the depression, but in general the Japanese way is still there. I've seen it with musical instruments, rice, produce, high end cues, cars, and even pets!
In the 90's, if you walked into any given pool room, it wasn't unusual to see 5-6 "B" players playing with $5k Ginas. And the reason was most likely because the particular house pro in that room played with a Gina. Move down to the next pool room, and the whole room is filled with SW, because the house pro plays with one.
Back to Cogs. Most every Japanese player I've ever met that owned a Cog have had the shafts turned down in order to make them more playable. I've played with a brand new one with stock shafts, and I found it to resemble the playability of a log. However, when turned down or tapered to a more favorable taper, they can be 'tweaked' to play as well as any other great player out there. The materials used seem to be very high quality, including the shaftwoods, thus allowing for some shaft tweaking. But right out of the box...............in my opinion...............not much of a player.
Opinion only folks.
dave

Rtoron
09-05-2012, 06:23 PM
Cognoscenti cues are no nonsense cues that are very playable. They are well constructed and the workmanship is as good as anybody out there. Years ago I owned a Cognoscenti and I asked Joe Gold if he would sell me a lathe pin. He sent me a lathe pin and did not even charge me for the pin. I believe Joe Gold would stand behind his product 100% if one of his cues developed a problem. That is something that is worth money. Joe Gold deserves to get good money for his cues because he has a proven track record of excellence. Very few cuemakers have sold the amount of cues that Joe Gold has sold.

saint1
10-20-2012, 04:17 PM
While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

Now thats a man that know's what he's taking about! Well stated!

Shane Jackson
11-13-2012, 02:56 AM
If you were going to go about finding a plain jane playing cue, for player purpose which would you pick and why?

$TAKE HOR$E
11-13-2012, 03:20 AM
If you were going to go about finding a plain jane playing cue, for player purpose which would you pick and why?

One of the best plain jane cues I have had was an older ebony Cognoscenti. The shaft taper, weight and balance was great, real solid overall. One of only a few cues I wish I would have kept. I had a few SW plain janes also, nice cues but I preferred that specific Cognoscenti over the ones I had.

SCCues
11-13-2012, 05:38 AM
I spent the better part of 20 years living in Japan and working in the billiard supplies industry, and Cogs (their popularity and pricing), as well as a few other well known makers in my opinion, are a direct result of the Japanese market influence, and most of all Lucky and his dealings with these select makers. I'm not familiar with the deal he had with Joe of Cog, but I do know of other deals he had with other makers. Most of these deals involved these makers producing cues only for Lucky. In other words, he would tie up a a certain maker into an agreement where anything and everything that came out of the guys shop went to Lucky only. So, for a few select makes of higher end cues, there was a point in time where the only way to get one brand new, was to get one from Lucky, and at whatever price he decided to tag it with.
I remember seeing Cogs at his shop with a price tag of $20K. And, they were selling!
Now as far as playability, Cogs were a very popular cue in the mid 90's, and basically that popularity came as a direct result of the way Lucky marketed his stuff. The Japanese are a very passive consumer, and there is this mentality in Japan where the more expensive an item is, the more superior it is. Obviously that way of thinking has drastically changed as a result of the depression, but in general the Japanese way is still there. I've seen it with musical instruments, rice, produce, high end cues, cars, and even pets!
In the 90's, if you walked into any given pool room, it wasn't unusual to see 5-6 "B" players playing with $5k Ginas. And the reason was most likely because the particular house pro in that room played with a Gina. Move down to the next pool room, and the whole room is filled with SW, because the house pro plays with one.
Back to Cogs. Most every Japanese player I've ever met that owned a Cog have had the shafts turned down in order to make them more playable. I've played with a brand new one with stock shafts, and I found it to resemble the playability of a log. However, when turned down or tapered to a more favorable taper, they can be 'tweaked' to play as well as any other great player out there. The materials used seem to be very high quality, including the shaftwoods, thus allowing for some shaft tweaking. But right out of the box...............in my opinion...............not much of a player.
Opinion only folks.
dave
This is an excellent post and it makes a lot of sense. I owned a fancy Cog and the original shafts were over 13mm and unplayable at that size for me. I couldn't agree with you more that re-tapering the shafts would make the cue play much better! Your view on the Japanese pool rooms and the cues used in them is interesting.

James

jmurphy
01-01-2013, 12:13 PM
I used to own this Cog and it hit the balls like a freight train. :thumbup:

My only issue was that I like 59" cues and this was 57"
I liked the hit so much that I traded a AS9 model Black Boar straight across for it.

PDX
01-02-2013, 11:36 AM
I despise floating CNC points, or CNC points for that matter. Since they add no structural integrity, they are merely inlays, and generally unattractive in all forms.

The PJ's are simple and easy on the eyes.


As Frank Lloyd Wright said "Less is only more where more is no good".

Maybe soon cues will be described as hand "programmed" made.

Black-Balled
01-02-2013, 11:44 AM
Cogs do nothing for me, but do know they are highly regarded by many.

Some hack they call 'the Freezer' likes 'em.

And the question of proce/ value...it is like anythiong else: They are priced at an amount that the market will bear.

Too low and customers will snap them up until the secondary market reaches the appropriate oprice level.
Too high and there won't be any sold, until prices reach the appropriate oprice level.

jhanso18
01-02-2013, 12:10 PM
"Nothing is overpriced, that some one will pay for" comes to mind.

I really only see paying for something like a cog as paying for fine art. It might be an investment, or something you keep forever. I don't care for cog's or MOST CNC inlaid cues period, but to each his own.


Personally, I think if the cue plays exactly the way you want it to, it's hard to put a price on it. The best cue I ever hit is a $400 plain jane, and the kid won't sell it to me for $1k.

best,

Justin

Chicagoplayer
08-27-2013, 10:22 AM
I have never made an insult.

I just related that I have never seen anything that wasnt CNC on a Cog cue. I feel exactly the same on the Siegal cues. (Dont want to open a second can of worms).

I feel the same way about new Schon verses old Schon cues. I prefer the older ones with sharp points.

I have "hit" several different cues, and I dont have to play with them for years know if I like them or not.

I still stand by my original post, I do not think Cog cues are "special". While some may think silver stitch rings are significant, I do not. Yes, the pin Joey uses is different from everybody else (I agree he was the first to use it), but IMO, I dont think that is significant as the contribution to cuemaking as Kersenbrock, or several other cuemakers.

These are my opinions, you can have yours, these are mine. When asked, I will share my opinion.

Ken
__________________________________________________ _____________

Cue building and the play of cues are highly subjective-
And I am a friend and personal admirer of over 50 custom cue makers.
I will mention this fact. Joey's cue, pool, gun and motorcycle knowledge is expert.
He is also the first cuebuilder to employ gunsmithing techniques to cuebuilding.
I have been to Joe's shop, recently in fact.
Very few cue builders use UV for example.
Some swear by this-n-that.
My point is,
I know Joe, I've watched him work,
I like the man and I like his cues.
CP

Chicagoplayer
08-27-2013, 10:26 AM
:thumbup:Hi,

Just for the record, I grew up with Joey and it has been my experience that Joe is one of the most talented people I have ever met. When he starts something and puts his mind to it he excels to a top level of achievement.

Example: When he was a teenager he bought a basket case Harley motorcycle and built it into a custom bike. The first bike he built made the cover of Chopper magazine. Joey is a master painter and this was his roots.

When he got into cue making I knew he would reach an elite level. Joe is not a genius, but he is one of the most anal perfectionists I have ever met.

Like Cogs or not the mans work and contributions speak for themselves.

People don't pay $ 7500.00 for cues that are not in demand. Even in this bad market Joe's cues bring big dollars.

Rick G.
________________________________________
very nice!:thumbup:

Chicagoplayer
08-27-2013, 10:30 AM
I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues that make them have the basic price of more than 2.5k or so, given the fact that they don't have ivory on them such as other high end cues.

_______________________________

He has a price list for his cues.

greyghost
08-27-2013, 11:12 AM
believe joey gold was the first to use the G-10 pin on a cue.....great pin lots of torque down

Icon of Sin
08-27-2013, 11:29 AM
What's so special about <insert cuemake'rs name here>

Black-Balled
08-27-2013, 11:46 AM
While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken
And Ken speaks for me too...

Black-Balled
08-27-2013, 12:16 PM
I walked in on a coworker just after he got off the phone with his girlfriend, and he was pissed. Me being another woman who had the very bad luck of walking in right then, he let loose:

"How come you women need to break a man for jewelry? Is it the cost of the diamonds that makes you think you've got him now? The pain of the price is proof of his attachment to you?!? What is UP with women and jewelry- just tell me the truth!"

There was a pause and I realized he really wanted an answer.

I shrugged and told him the truth: "It's shiny."

So I never got to hit with a Cog, but I do want one- badly, in fact. Why? It's pretty, and the rings are so shiny.

Honest.
They are all lovely though.

wimmins? cues?
Yes.

blucollar
08-28-2013, 06:06 AM
U couldn't be more correct about the Asian markets influence being largely responsible for driving the price of cogs up. The same for Southwest, ...a perfect example of this would be just go to Roy malotts indyq.com site. Half the Southwest section is written in Asian. No coincidence there.

sebas
08-28-2013, 11:26 AM
Joey's cue building knowledge is top notch as is his knowledge of the game. He chooses to build his cues the way he does because he believes in his method and believes in the soundness of every single cue he send out. How many of you have a Cog butt or shaft that has warped? I have had plenty of his cues and they are very consistent. Something that is hard to find in a custom cue. He designs and/or builds many of his own machines. There are many cuemakers out there today that use machinery Joey has designed or built. Any cue is only worth what someone will pay for it. I have had/hit with all of the "great" ones and joey's cues hit very nice and on par with any of them. The problem with them is they are too darn short:grin:.

Quesports
08-28-2013, 11:43 AM
Joey's cue building knowledge is top notch as is his knowledge of the game. He chooses to build his cues the way he does because he believes in his method and believes in the soundness of every single cue he send out. How many of you have a Cog butt or shaft that has warped? I have had plenty of his cues and they are very consistent. Something that is hard to find in a custom cue. He designs and/or builds many of his own machines. There are many cuemakers out there today that use machinery Joey has designed or built. Any cue is only worth what someone will pay for it. I have had/hit with all of the "great" ones and joey's cues hit very nice and on par with any of them. The problem with them is they are too darn short:grin:.



Not mine... It's just right!;)

Cdryden
08-28-2013, 11:57 AM
Ken...The fact that you "diss" CNC just shows that you know nothing about cue construction. You're making judgement calls on something you just personally don't like (which is an opinion...and to which you're entitled). That said, CNC cues don't PLAY any different than sharp point cues. The playability (as JB mentioned), is extremely subjective from person to person, and is based on how the cue is constructed...not how the points are "installed" in the cue. For your information, regardless of whether points are CNC or 'hand-cut', they still have to be HAND-INLAID...which if you had ever been to Joe's shop, you'd understand how difficult it is to put some of the elaborate scrollwork points is (I own the first split Shiseido point cue, and it is one of my prized possessions). I'm in the camp (like several other knowledgeable cue owners here) that Joe's cues play like nothing else, and I've owned dozens of cues, including Balabushka, Southwest, old Gina, JW, and Szamboti (among many others). The Cog has always been my favorite...and it's the "hit" that, for me, makes it favored to me. Forget about the dazzling designs that Joe has come up (and some others have tried to copy). Opinions are like a-holes...every has one, and many of them stink (but we're all entitled to our own). :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Forgive me for getting a little of track but Scott makes a good point about CNC work. I've always found it funny that in the cue world some people see the CNC as a big evil. As a person who worked as a Machinist for 11 years and a tool and die maker for another 5 I can tell you this, a CNC lathe or mill is just a means to be more efficient and accurate.
I think a lot of people hear the term CNC and think mass produced which is not always the case. Most of these guys using CNC machines to build their cues are every bit the craftsman as the guys from older generations.

Why wouldn't you want to use the best machines available to produce the best product possible?

blah blah
08-28-2013, 12:59 PM
They are all lovely though.

wimmins? cues?
Yes.

: )

That long ago, and I STILL want a Cog...

And a Bobby Hunter.

:)

Johnnyt
08-28-2013, 01:04 PM
I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues that make them have the basic price of more than 2.5k or so, given the fact that they don't have ivory on them such as other high end cues.

I would probably will never buy a custom cue, but if I ever did it would be a Cognoscenti. They are great hitting cue (at least the one I used for about 8 hours), and they look elegant IMO. Johnnyt

Str8Strokin
12-31-2016, 08:34 PM
For those of you that say a cognoscenti doesnt play well.... its you and youre skill level not the cue. Dont blame a 2500$ cue when you cant make a straight in shot. Its not the cue

Kim Bye
01-01-2017, 05:34 AM
Ken...The fact that you "diss" CNC just shows that you know nothing about cue construction. You're making judgement calls on something you just personally don't like (which is an opinion...and to which you're entitled). That said, CNC cues don't PLAY any different than sharp point cues. The playability (as JB mentioned), is extremely subjective from person to person, and is based on how the cue is constructed...not how the points are "installed" in the cue. For your information, regardless of whether points are CNC or 'hand-cut', they still have to be HAND-INLAID...which if you had ever been to Joe's shop, you'd understand how difficult it is to put some of the elaborate scrollwork points is (I own the first split Shiseido point cue, and it is one of my prized possessions). I'm in the camp (like several other knowledgeable cue owners here) that Joe's cues play like nothing else, and I've owned dozens of cues, including Balabushka, Southwest, old Gina, JW, and Szamboti (among many others). The Cog has always been my favorite...and it's the "hit" that, for me, makes it favored to me. Forget about the dazzling designs that Joe has come up (and some others have tried to copy). Opinions are like a-holes...every has one, and many of them stink (but we're all entitled to our own). :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Very good point, it seems that some people are under the misapprehension that cnc takes all the work out of cue building.
Designing and cutting in multiple axis takes alot of time to master.

nevermiss
01-01-2017, 07:17 AM
Probably by today's standards, not too much anymore because there are so many good cues, but bear in mind he innovated this style of cue design (now used by Josey and others) with CNC scrollwork in detail that had not been seen at the time.



The prices were really up there for awhile as many of his cues were going to a buyer/dealer in Japan, so his cues were hard to get. Limited supply drove prices up. This is true of a number of cue makers - then when that deal ended in Japan seveal years ago he started selling them here again.



Chris



I agree with all of this.

As an side, I was also told by someone familiar with his cuemaking that he had a scientist or scientists at a university (sorry for fuzzy details) conduct experiments into optimizing a cues playability.

I have no skin in his cues and have never owned one, but can respect that kind passion about your craft. Even if in the end "hit" is a subjective thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

skins
01-01-2017, 08:53 AM
There's a LOT of ignorance in this thread.........



"and that's all I'm gonna say about that"....-Forrest Gump-

Quesports
01-01-2017, 10:58 AM
There's a LOT of ignorance in this thread.........



"and that's all I'm gonna say about that"....-Forrest Gump-

YEP, And I bet Joe is down in his shop working on that shiny red Ducati having a good laugh!

skins
01-01-2017, 11:06 AM
YEP, And I bet Joe is down in his shop working on that shiny red Ducati having a good laugh!

He traded the Ducati in for a pair of Vespa scooters years ago..LOL... He may be "slowing down" a bit. ;)

fastone371
01-01-2017, 01:06 PM
Forgive me for getting a little of track but Scott makes a good point about CNC work. I've always found it funny that in the cue world some people see the CNC as a big evil. As a person who worked as a Machinist for 11 years and a tool and die maker for another 5 I can tell you this, a CNC lathe or mill is just a means to be more efficient and accurate.
I think a lot of people hear the term CNC and think mass produced which is not always the case. Most of these guys using CNC machines to build their cues are every bit the craftsman as the guys from older generations.

Why wouldn't you want to use the best machines available to produce the best product possible?

I could not agree more with you on this subject. Even when cue makers do use CNC equipment there is still an exceptional amount of hand craftsmanship that goes into every cue. I almost get the feeling that people who look down on CNC cues think that you load wood, veneers, joints, ferruls, Irish linen, tips and rubber bumpers into one end of the CNC and a completed cue comes spitting out of the other end of the CNC. What about using a pantograph for inlays? Thats basically having the machine do the work and not really hand craftsmanship. Truly hand crafted inlays would be installed using only an exacto knife and maybe a Dremmel.

louieatienza
01-01-2017, 03:37 PM
Very good point, it seems that some people are under the misapprehension that cnc takes all the work out of cue building.
Designing and cutting in multiple axis takes alot of time to master.

I do like the aesthetics of Cognoscenti cues... I think the plain janes are among the elegant designs with that ringwork! I'm not much of a floating point guy, but I do like that his are ornate without being overtly gaudy.

That said, while the designing and machining can technically be called 4-axis, in reality the machining is what we call 2.5D (vertical walls and flat bottom) using the 4th axis only for positioning (pattern repetition) the same way a manual operator would use an indexing fixture. The key of course is keeping tight tolerances, using material (wood) whose expansion rate can be more than the machines' tolerances.

If true 4-axis wrapped or 4-axis continuous machining were employed, then the pocket walls would end up being parallel to the tangent of the center of the cue minus the radius of the endmill used, and the inlays would have be cut from tubular stock, or cut on a 5-axis machine. Also if the inlay had a hole, it would be impossible to install if the corresponding boss was milled into the butt of the cue.

skins
01-01-2017, 04:57 PM
I do like the aesthetics of Cognoscenti cues... I think the plain janes are among the elegant designs with that ringwork! I'm not much of a floating point guy, but I do like that his are ornate without being overtly gaudy.

That said, while the designing and machining can technically be called 4-axis, in reality the machining is what we call 2.5D (vertical walls and flat bottom) using the 4th axis only for positioning (pattern repetition) the same way a manual operator would use an indexing fixture. The key of course is keeping tight tolerances, using material (wood) whose expansion rate can be more than the machines' tolerances.

If true 4-axis wrapped or 4-axis continuous machining were employed, then the pocket walls would end up being parallel to the tangent of the center of the cue minus the radius of the endmill used, and the inlays would have be cut from tubular stock, or cut on a 5-axis machine. Also if the inlay had a hole, it would be impossible to install if the corresponding boss was milled into the butt of the cue.

Joe's machine is and never has been setup for 4th axis milling. As a matter of fact his controller isn't even setup for simple A axis rotation from the g-code output... He does that manually at the machine. That said every aspect of the machine is top tier and makes for one extremely accurate machine.

louieatienza
01-01-2017, 05:33 PM
I could not agree more with you on this subject. Even when cue makers do use CNC equipment there is still an exceptional amount of hand craftsmanship that goes into every cue. I almost get the feeling that people who look down on CNC cues think that you load wood, veneers, joints, ferruls, Irish linen, tips and rubber bumpers into one end of the CNC and a completed cue comes spitting out of the other end of the CNC. What about using a pantograph for inlays? Thats basically having the machine do the work and not really hand craftsmanship. Truly hand crafted inlays would be installed using only an exacto knife and maybe a Dremmel.

Well, actually the other way around... you'd take the inlay and scribe the outline, hog it with a Dremel, then use an x-acto knife for final fitment. Even with a pantograph, all the old school style inlays came to sharp points so it required hand clean up.

I had an old Meucci, where cut diamonds were inlaid in the ebony points and butt, but the pockets were milled out with a 1/16" endmill oversized at the points and filled with epoxy. Couldn't tell from arm's length but it always bothered me. (The fiddleback curly maple shaft looked spectacular but I couldn't do squat with it.)

But I agree. The CNC's output is only as good as the guy who programs and operates it. It takes knowledge and experience to keep tolerances that ensure precision fitment. And the need for the skills to make designs that his target base find appealing and desirable. Looking around, I saw a wrapless plain jane ebony Cognoscenti with maple handle, and with those stylish rings and outline diamonds set against the black it looked downright classy. A bit pricey for me considering I just got back in and only playing once a week if that, but if I could, I'd love to have it in my stable! I find an elegance and sense of proportion to his designs, even if it's not something I normally enjoy. Tough here nowadays to find an open pool hall, let alone someone locally who owns one and is willing to let someone shoot a couple racks with.

deanoc
01-02-2017, 08:34 AM
i hate these type of threads

when it boils down to the essence it is knocking
running down the type of cue


i had one of Dennis Glenn's cog to sell
it was top drawer
Billy Incardona plays one

Billy is the smartest pool player in the world

there must be something special about them

but i don't have one

skins
01-02-2017, 11:01 PM
i hate these type of threads

when it boils down to the essence it is knocking
running down the type of cue


i had one of Dennis Glenn's cog to sell
it was top drawer
Billy Incardona plays one

Billy is the smartest pool player in the world

there must be something special about them

but i don't have one

Yep Dean... Joe chose the name of his cues BECAUSE he knew what he offering. Why are they so special? Well if you've had one in your hands, examined it thoroughly, and hit some balls with it and STILL don't know, well you're not one who could tell the difference in the first place...

Duane Remick
01-03-2017, 10:13 AM
Yep Dean... Joe chose the name of his cues BECAUSE he knew what he offering. Why are they so special? Well if you've had one in your hands, examined it thoroughly, and hit some balls with it and STILL don't know, well you're not one who could tell the difference in the first place...

COG-
"EXCEPTIONAL CUES....
SUPERB WORKMANSHIP-
Joe is STUBBORN ABOUT HIS SHAFT WOOD TOO-
Takes an extremely long time is processing shafts-years I'm told-
Like Johnny Showman spends years cutting and prepping shafts for his cues

deanoc
01-03-2017, 01:41 PM
great to see positive remarks about a working mans efforts

jazznpool
01-03-2017, 06:17 PM
great to see positive remarks about a working mans efforts

Yeah, Joe is very selective about his woods and materials. Always nice closely matched shafts. No issues requiring me to ship cues back in over 6 years of proudly offering them.

louieatienza
01-03-2017, 09:23 PM
Yeah, Joe is very selective about his woods and materials. Always nice closely matched shafts. No issues requiring me to ship cues back in over 6 years of proudly offering them.

That ebony plain jane with the maple handle you have for sale is just sexy....

Chicagoplayer
01-04-2017, 07:11 AM
Yep Dean... Joe chose the name of his cues BECAUSE he knew what he offering. Why are they so special? Well if you've had one in your hands, examined it thoroughly, and hit some balls with it and STILL don't know, well you're not one who could tell the difference in the first place...

How are you Paradiddle flamma Q?

To know a Cognoscenti Cue, you should understand some of the qualities of the man who builds them-
not many besides you and those who have spent time with him, know know.

Joe is an exacting man.
Meaning, he recognizes and requires a level of quality from both around him and from himself.
He can and does machine his own parts and he makes the machines that make the machines that makes the parts.
His mechanical aptitude is guru level.
He started with cars, motorcycles, watches and guns.
What he didn't know, he learned or paid the learned

Example: While I was in his shop, I asked him "What is this?"

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=67743&cat=1,42936,42941&ap=1

He says "It's a square"
Me: "And what do you use it for?"
JG: "Anything I want to measure accurately. They cost a lot, but they're (Starrett) the best"

And so it is with most everything with Joe.

My Cog 1 of 7 of 3,700

skins
01-04-2017, 09:36 AM
How are you Paradiddle flamma Q?

To know a Cognoscenti Cue, you should understand some of the qualities of the man who builds them-
not many besides you and those who have spent time with him, know know......

Hi Angel!!

Happy Holidays Sweetheart!

Tim (Skins) (Paradiddle Flamacue) :smile:

JohnnyP
01-04-2017, 10:32 AM
What is so special about a Cognoscenti?

Those who are in the know know.

(cognoscenti is Latin for those who are in the know)

justinb386
01-04-2017, 05:20 PM
I just wonder what is so special about Cognoscenti cues that make them have the basic price of more than 2.5k or so, given the fact that they don't have ivory on them such as other high end cues.

I assume it is because they are known as one of the best playing cues ever made. Same reason why Richard Harris (Bluegrass) cues are so expensive (and known to not be very fancy). Because they are known to be really great playing cues.

justinb386
01-04-2017, 05:21 PM
Cogs are known for their incredible playability. Last time I spoke to ''Freddy the Beard'' , he told me he was playing with a new Cog and loves it,,,Freddy has seen his share of wood over the years too and is a world class banker to boot..!!

Joe Gold is now making wrapless cues,,,freaking beautiful,,,check them out at www.Indyq.com.........

like ''Freddy '' would say ''you can thank me later''..........!!

I really love the looks of this one, which is priced at about $2500.

http://www.indyq.com/custom-cues/cognoscenti/cognoscenti-112/cognoscenti-112-enlargement.html

justinb386
01-04-2017, 05:27 PM
While the pin is different, he is far from a significant contributor. He is a significant user of CNC in his cues, and I find little impressive about any I have seen. I have played with a few and they played okay to downright awful.

Kersenbrock? yes. Gold? no.

Ken

I guess it is just a matter of opinion. He must have been popular, and known to build a really great hitting cue, in order for his cue prices to have gotten that high. I do not know, but I imagine that his cues did not cost that much when he 1st started building cues. His rep must have really gotten high for good reason. I always wanted to try one of his cues out, just to find out my own opinion about them. I always loved that 3/8x11 G10 glass epoxy pin he uses. I always loved the cues I had in the past with that pin, like a Durbin that I had for example.

louieatienza
01-04-2017, 06:11 PM
I really love the looks of this one, which is priced at about $2500.

http://www.indyq.com/custom-cues/cognoscenti/cognoscenti-112/cognoscenti-112-enlargement.html

#20, at the Superior Cues site.... That's the one for me...

Rtoron
01-18-2017, 02:56 PM
A note about CNC inlays versus Pantograph Inlays. The fact is the end result is exactly the same. For the end product it makes no difference which way the inlays were made. Looking at the end product nobody can tell which method was used to build the cue. If they tell you they can tell a difference they are lying and don't know what they are talking about.