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hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 06:59 AM
Happened last night in my weekly tournament (which I won again, making it 5 wins one 2nd place in 8 weeks, wheee!, pat on back.) 9-ball. 8 is in the jaws, player miscues, hits both points without touching the 8-ball, the 8-ball drops in the pocket due to the table vibrations.

Now I know if this happened before the shot, it would be spotted up and play continues as normal. After the shot, does it stay down or get spotted? We pretty much agreed it was a foul and oponents gets ball in hand, but does the 8 stay down? I'm not sure if the rule of "all balls stay down on a foul" would apply here as the rule of a ball dropping without contact could also apply.

For the record, since we were not tottaly sure of the rulling, although we all pretty much agreed it was a foul, they 2 guys decided to play the rack over, which IMHO was the correct call in this case.

What if the cueball hit one point, the 8 fell in, then the cueball went through the empty space where the 8 used to be, thus fouling? Is that a foul or is the fact that the cueball "would have" hit the 8 if it did not drop make it a good hit, in a way?

Bob Jewett
06-18-2010, 07:11 AM
Happened last night in my weekly tournament (which I won again, making it 5 wins one 2nd place in 8 weeks, wheee!, pat on back.) 9-ball. 8 is in the jaws, player miscues, hits both points without touching the 8-ball, the 8-ball drops in the pocket due to the table vibrations.

Now I know if this happened before the shot, it would be spotted up and play continues as normal. After the shot, does it stay down or get spotted? We pretty much agreed it was a foul and opponent's gets ball in hand, but does the 8 stay down? I'm not sure if the rule of "all balls stay down on a foul" would apply here as the rule of a ball dropping without contact could also apply.

For the record, since we were not totally sure of the ruling, although we all pretty much agreed it was a foul, they 2 guys decided to play the rack over, which IMHO was the correct call in this case.

What if the cueball hit one point, the 8 fell in, then the cueball went through the empty space where the 8 used to be, thus fouling? Is that a foul or is the fact that the cueball "would have" hit the 8 if it did not drop make it a good hit, in a way?
To begin with, I'm having a really hard time imagining a pocket with a ball in the jaws and the cue ball hitting both points without touching the ball in the jaws. The shelf must be 10 inches deep. I'd play somewhere else.

But to answer your question, the rules are pretty clear on this. Here are the rules. (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament) Here is the section that applies:
1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.

hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 07:19 AM
He may not have exacly hit the points, maybe right before, but the shelf on those tables are very deep as well.

The issue is that the 8 droped, but it was on a foul since he totally wiffed on the hit. So on a foul, the ball would stay down, and the 8 only dropped after the cue ball hit the rail, not from any small vibrations. It was the force of the hit that caused the 8 to drop, which is player induced. The issue would be, on a foul you get ball in hand, but would you be shooting at the 8 which gets spotted back in the jaw due to it falling in during the hit, or at the 9 with the 8 not getting spotted due to the fact that it fell in during a foul?

To begin with, I'm having a really hard time imagining a pocket with a ball in the jaws and the cue ball hitting both points without touching the ball in the jaws. The shelf must be 10 inches deep. I'd play somewhere else.

But to answer your question, the rules are pretty clear on this. Here are the rules. (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament) Here is the section that applies:
1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.

Bob Jewett
06-18-2010, 07:25 AM
Well, actually, my ruling would be that if the cue ball clearly did not hit the eight, the eight dropped from settling. Suppose the player had been shooting a jump shot at some other ball at the other end of the table, and the eight drops at about the time he shoots. No foul and the eight goes back on the edge. The ruling is no different if the shot is in the neighborhood of the eight.

Black-Balled
06-18-2010, 07:29 AM
I am having trouble understanding how a miscue could generate enough force to move a nearby ball. Not that I am qualified to comment on what happened there...

Can you post a vid?!:D:wink:

GADawg
06-18-2010, 07:43 AM
Well, actually, my ruling would be that if the cue ball clearly did not hit the eight, the eight dropped from settling. Suppose the player had been shooting a jump shot at some other ball at the other end of the table, and the eight drops at about the time he shoots. No foul and the eight goes back on the edge. The ruling is no different if the shot is in the neighborhood of the eigh
t.

Agree. Ball is replaced as near as possible to postion in the jaw. I would say that if ball fell before the cue ball passed is not a foul and CB stays in position. If 8 fell after CB passed without touching, then is a foul, 8 is replaced in jaw and BIH to opponent.

hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 07:48 AM
I am having trouble understanding how a miscue could generate enough force to move a nearby ball. Not that I am qualified to comment on what happened there...

Can you post a vid?!:D:wink:

The miscue caused the cueball to hit off course on the shot enough to miss the 8 hanging in the pocket, the force of the vibrations of the cueball hitting the rails near the 8 caused the 8 to drop.

hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 07:55 AM
Well, actually, my ruling would be that if the cue ball clearly did not hit the eight, the eight dropped from settling. Suppose the player had been shooting a jump shot at some other ball at the other end of the table, and the eight drops at about the time he shoots. No foul and the eight goes back on the edge. The ruling is no different if the shot is in the neighborhood of the eight.

I would have to counter-point that a cue ball going 15 mph hitting a rail is not "settling", but a result of the player action. And the player action was a foul as he would have missed the 8 even if it stayed up. It would be like hitting the table with your hand and having the ball drop.

The issue is that shooting at the 8 in the jaws and playing position is a lot trickier than just shooting the 9 with ball in hand.

Would you agree that replaying the rack was the right thing to do since there was not true agreement on what the ruling should be?

Bob Jewett
06-18-2010, 08:10 AM
.... Would you agree that replaying the rack was the right thing to do since there was not true agreement on what the ruling should be?
If the players are not familiar with the rules or there is no one to make an official ruling, then anything the players can mutually agree to is fine with me. I assume there was no equivalent of a TD or referee.

Does a ball dropping from vibration in the table caused by the cue ball rather than actual contact from the cue ball constitute settling? I think that's the only thing that's questionable here, and I still think it does constitute settling. Among other problems, it's more or less impossible to say whether some other cause at the same time, such as real settling, or the player accidentally bumping the table, caused the settling.

hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 08:33 AM
If the players are not familiar with the rules or there is no one to make an official ruling, then anything the players can mutually agree to is fine with me. I assume there was no equivalent of a TD or referee.
-snip-


The manager of the room runs the tournament and does get called in to watch hits and such. I also get called in on rule questions since I am pretty familiar with them. In this case, none of us could figure out if the 8 ball stays down, gets spotted on the spot, gets spotted in the jaw where it was, what type of foul if any this was. So the players said to just replay the rack.

Since you are Bob Jewett and I'm not, I'll take your ruling as a good one, next time this happens we'll spot up the ball where it was, and the other player would get ball in hand as the hit was bad even if the 8 stayed up. Thanks for the advice.

Black-Balled
06-18-2010, 08:51 AM
The miscue caused the cueball to hit off course on the shot enough to miss the 8 hanging in the pocket, the force of the vibrations of the cueball hitting the rails near the 8 caused the 8 to drop.

I read that...which you state like obvious.

so, given the alleged occurrence :wink:

Follows then that if you bank a ball firmly, you can move other balls w/out touching them?

hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 09:12 AM
I read that...which you state like obvious.

so, given the alleged occurrence :wink:

Follows then that if you bank a ball firmly, you can move other balls w/out touching them?

I have a feeling you don't think this happened.. you should have seen the look on the faces of the guys playing the match :grin-square:.

If the ball is hanging so close to the hole that a tiny nudge will make it fall in, then yea, a table vibration, especially right near the ball will make it fall. Especially if the table is not 100% perfect from all isolations between the component, which I'm sure many tables are not.

Black-Balled
06-18-2010, 11:23 AM
I have a feeling you don't think this happened.. you should have seen the look on the faces of the guys playing the match :grin-square:.

If the ball is hanging so close to the hole that a tiny nudge will make it fall in, then yea, a table vibration, especially right near the ball will make it fall. Especially if the table is not 100% perfect from all isolations between the component, which I'm sure many tables are not.

I don't believe it, you are right!:eek::wink:

That said, you were there and I wasn't, + I have seen many unbelievable things in the pool room. I wouldn't bet it didn't happen!

I just contend that a miscue strikes the rail with significantly less force than a good % of regular shots...so those regular shots would have to produce noticable movement as well...

Or, as I like to say in my fancy business meetings, whaddoo I fuggin knowe?!

hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 11:40 AM
I don't believe it, you are right!:eek::wink:

That said, you were there and I wasn't, + I have seen many unbelievable things in the pool room. I wouldn't bet it didn't happen!

I just contend that a miscue strikes the rail with significantly less force than a good % of regular shots...so those regular shots would have to produce noticable movement as well...

Or, as I like to say in my fancy business meetings, whaddoo I fuggin knowe?!

The miscue that happened was like one of those miscues during the break where the cueball totally misses the rack but goes nuts all over the table anyway. He hit it pretty hard to begin with, as I think he was trying to draw it out full table back up to the 9.

TheNewSharkster
06-18-2010, 12:14 PM
I am no expert but the ball should be spotted and the BIH since no legal contact occurred.