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akaTrigger
06-18-2010, 01:52 PM
I keep reading that "short stops" are decent players. How did the term 'shortstop' come about?

Is it suppose to be obvious to me that shortstop means a good player? Or is it a long-time pool term I just hadn't heard a lot of?

Obviously there are shortstops in baseball, so I always wondered if and how they were related to how we use the term in regard to pool players.

Don't shoot the female messenger! :o

Nostroke
06-18-2010, 01:57 PM
I keep reading that "short stops" are decent players. How did the term 'shortstop' come about?

Is it suppose to be obvious to me that shortstop means a good player? Or is it a long-time pool term I just hadn't heard a lot of?

Obviously there are shortstops in baseball, so I always wondered if and how they were related to how we use the term in regard to pool players.

Don't shoot the female messenger! :o

I have heard that the term came from road players who described winning a match vs lesser players as just a "short stop" meaning he busted the guy quick and moved on. This sounds like a stretch to me but maybe.

getsome01
06-18-2010, 01:57 PM
are you ever gonna finish that drink? turn it up and finish it!

zy112
06-18-2010, 01:58 PM
Good question. Your guess is as good as mine, but I also assumed it was bc the shortstop is usually a good player, ie Derek Jeter. At least in little league, thats usually were the best player is if he's not on the mound

If that's the case, I'm the little league right fielder in the pool world:grin:

hang-the-9
06-18-2010, 02:01 PM
Here is what I recall. A shortstop is a very strong, usually local player, that had a good chance to beat anyone but a top pro. I'm thinking a shortstop name is that because they are in the middle of the field, but not the top guy (who I guess is playing outfield). Someone to go through to get to the next level.

I would think those would be the A, AA level players.

DRW
06-18-2010, 02:02 PM
I keep reading that "short stops" are decent players. How did the term 'shortstop' come about?

Is it suppose to be obvious to me that shortstop means a good player? Or is it a long-time pool term I just hadn't heard a lot of?

Obviously there are shortstops in baseball, so I always wondered if and how they were related to how we use the term in regard to pool players.

Don't shoot the female messenger! :o
Short stops when I first started playing were the best players in a town, but couldn't beat the road players that came through. They got staked pretty easy, because others in town had never seen them get beat by the locals.

Maniac
06-18-2010, 02:04 PM
Good question. Your guess is as good as mine, but I also assumed it was bc the shortstop is usually a good player, ie Derek Jeter. At least in little league, thats usually were the best player is if he's not on the mound

If that's the case, I'm the little league right fielder in the pool world:grin:

Then I'm either gonna "ride the pines" or I'm gonna get "cut" :D!!!

Maniac

K Knight
06-18-2010, 02:05 PM
A shortstop is a player just short of being pro. I'm not sure about the origins.

zy112
06-18-2010, 02:06 PM
Then I'm either gonna "ride the pines" or I'm gonna get "cut" :D!!!

Maniac

I guess your right, I didn't even think of sitting the bench. I'll one up you and say that makes me the bat boy.

catpool9
06-18-2010, 02:09 PM
I keep reading that "short stops" are decent players. How did the term 'shortstop' come about?

Is it suppose to be obvious to me that shortstop means a good player? Or is it a long-time pool term I just hadn't heard a lot of?

Obviously there are shortstops in baseball, so I always wondered if and how they were related to how we use the term in regard to pool players.

Don't shoot the female messenger! :o


Well Trigger to me I think the term referrs to: "one of the local towns best poolplayers" not a pro or road player.

Although some shortstops play rather well!!!!!!!


David Harcrow

akaTrigger
06-18-2010, 02:16 PM
I guess I can't get over the term for some reason - it seems shortstop would NOT be a decent player.

But, the comparison to Derek Jeter and him being a shortstop and a shortstop in baseball are good players makes sense. I knew this was a dumb question, Sorry guys. :o

Roger Long
06-18-2010, 02:16 PM
A shortstop is a player just short of being pro. I'm not sure about the origins.

This is closest to my own understanding. I read something years ago that defined a shortstop as a very good player, but one who "stops short" of being a champion.

Ever since then I've wondered, what defines a "champion"? :confused:

Roger

akaTrigger
06-18-2010, 02:17 PM
A shortstop is a player just short of being pro. I'm not sure about the origins.

This is closest to my own understanding. I read something years ago that defined a shortstop as a very good player, but one who "stops short" of being a champion.

Ever since then I've wondered, what defines a "champion"? :confused:

Roger

Oooh, that makes sense, too!

zy112
06-18-2010, 02:21 PM
Ever since then I've wondered, what defines a "champion"? :confused:

Roger[/QUOTE]

My guess would be, players that win championships:thumbup:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

akaTrigger
06-18-2010, 02:22 PM
are you ever gonna finish that drink? turn it up and finish it!

I can change the pic if that would help :)

Jaden
06-18-2010, 02:26 PM
from what i understand its a local who a road player has a tough time with, so they move on quickly and that location becomes a short stop.

jaden

LAMas
06-18-2010, 02:26 PM
I can change the pic if that would help :)

I've wondered what your lips look like.:wink:

Roger Long
06-18-2010, 02:27 PM
are you ever gonna finish that drink? turn it up and finish it!

Trig is just demonstrating the true definition of a Shortstop. :grin:

Roger

Johnnyt
06-18-2010, 02:34 PM
In NY a shortstop was one of the best players in his room (if big room) or the best, or one of the best non-pros in an area, just short of a good pro. If a good pro gave them a little weight and the shortstop got a few good rolls he could win a good % of the time. A top pro beats him all the time with that same weight. Others say a very strong "A" player. Johnnyt

PS:AKA Trigger get rid of that avatar or chug that drink.

Ponytail
06-18-2010, 02:41 PM
The term shortstop, as stated in a couple of posts here in one form or another, is someone who isn't quite pro caliber. Usually a local player that plays really strong, but has a hard time winning against strong road players and pros.

B
A
A+
SS
Pro.

pooljunkie4ever
06-18-2010, 02:45 PM
I always thought a short-stop was from the road player perspective, a person that was easily beat. The road player would go in to the pool hall and make easy work of the player, than he was on his way to the next stop.

renard
06-18-2010, 02:56 PM
I always thought a short-stop was from the road player perspective, a person that was easily beat. The road player would go in to the pool hall and make easy work of the player, than he was on his way to the next stop.

Most Shortstops and players making the transition to Pro level are indeed road players. Defining a short stop as easy to beat doesn't make sense here. A Shortstop simply stops short of being a Pro.

Like Johnny T said its all about the weight.

Eric.
06-18-2010, 03:01 PM
Hey Trig,

My understanding was that a shortstop was a top player in his locale, and got the nickname because the cash made a "shortstop" before a true top player came by to take it off.


Eric >batboy

Majic
06-18-2010, 03:02 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_cue_sports_terms


How did baseball ever get mixed up with pool?

Attached is a Wilki link with pool related terms.

tucson9ball
06-18-2010, 03:44 PM
from what i understand its a local who a road player has a tough time with, so they move on quickly and that location becomes a short stop.

jaden


This is what I always heard, I agree with Jaden.




This I copied from the pool terms in the Wiki thing......

One of the best players in a region but who is not quite good enough to beat a serious road player or a professional.
A second-tier professional who is not (yet) ready for World Championship competition.[2][57] The term was borrowed from baseball.

jason
06-18-2010, 04:16 PM
We pretty much know the definition, but the origin is a little vague. Where's Jay? Has he answered on this? Trig, seriously...drink up!

BRKNRUN
06-18-2010, 05:27 PM
Uhmmmm.....Grady porbably coined the term....And Unfortunatly ran into one recently in Kolby's....

A short stop is a local (basically unknown) that is not to be played....You are supposed to play all the suckers and work your way up to the short stops....If you play a short stop first....It may be a "short stop" in that location.

Grady "thought" he was avoiding the short stop by not playing Gus.....in reality.....he ended up playing the short stop.

justadub
06-18-2010, 05:32 PM
Then I'm either gonna "ride the pines" or I'm gonna get "cut" :D!!!

Maniac

I'll be playing Left Out. :rolleyes:

Mowem down
06-18-2010, 06:38 PM
from what i understand its a local who a road player has a tough time with, so they move on quickly and that location becomes a short stop.

jaden

I always thought it was the other way, a shortstop can play good but when the road player comes to town its a "short stop" because he busts the local guy quick...

Getnbzy
06-18-2010, 06:50 PM
Short stops when I first started playing were the best players in a town, but couldn't beat the road players that came through. They got staked pretty easy, because others in town had never seen them get beat by the locals.

I have heard it like this as well. Good description

mullyman
06-18-2010, 07:26 PM
I guess your right, I didn't even think of sitting the bench. I'll one up you and say that makes me the bat boy.

Damn!!! If one of you is riding the bench and the other is the bat boy I guess that means I'm washing the jockstraps.
MULLY

jay helfert
06-18-2010, 07:40 PM
The term "shortstop" has been around as long as I've been involved in the pool world, since the early 60's. It referred to a good player, one that it took a strong player to beat. Every town had a shortstop or two to look out for. This was usually a player that you didn't want to play initially because it might kill all your other action. This term had nothing to do with baseball as far as I know. I have no idea of its origin either, but remember hearing it used way back when.

There were road players who were considered shortstops by their peers, and this was not a derogatory term. It just defined them as being a notch or two below the top players. In my opinion, often the difference in ability was more a matter of heart and courage than playing ability. A good shortstop might run out just as well as a top player, but not be able to get there under pressure. This was one quality that always separated the top players from the rest of us. Another factor was consistency over the long haul. A shortstop might not hold up as well in a long session as a top player. A good player could wear down a shortstop, and usually did if they played long enough.

Danny Diliberto once played me 8-5 in my pool room in Bakersfield and I broke even with him. I felt pretty good about the way I had played and Danny, who was never one to give compliments back then, called me a shortstop for life. He didn't mean it as a compliment either, since at that time I still aspired to play against the top players. It was kind of a back handed compliment. At least he had acknowledged that I could play, and for that I was glad. I wanted the acknowledgment of my peers even then.

Back in the 70's and 80's most of the good players would call me a shortstop speed player or a 'B' player. This kind of put me in my place in the pecking order. Some good players like Brian or Cole would give me the seven in 9-Ball or 8-6, 9-7 in One Pocket. I could win if I played my best, but it was tough action for me. At Banks I never got that kind of weight. Even then that was my "road" game, where I played a speed or two better. I played some top Bankers getting 5-4 (Youngblood, Billy Johnson) and made them work hard to win. I could beat a lot of other shortstops playing Banks, but maybe not at 9-Ball or One Pocket, which was my second best game.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm intimately familiar with the term shortstop, but have no idea how it came about. But if you were a shortstop, you could play. Just not as good as the big boys. :o

ShootingArts
06-18-2010, 08:04 PM
No surprise Jay got it right as did BRKNRUN before him. The shortstop is the last guy or the shortstops are the last guys you play locally. First off, they may beat you with home field advantage. Even if you beat them your action is killed in that town. Winning or losing to the shortstops you have to show too much speed for the lighter weight players in town to tangle with you afterwards. As good an origin as any for the name Shortstop is that playing them shuts you down in that town if you are traveling through. You may get a little more shortstop or above action but you are done with any easy action.

In my late teens I played a couple of gambling matches in Greenway. Respectable amounts for the time but not huge. Problem was the people I played. For weeks afterwards every time I had somebody on a table in Baton Rouge somebody would give them a nudge and mention that they had seen me in Greenway. Screech! The other player pulled up in a half a blink, sometimes quitting mid-game. We couldn't post on the light due to gambling laws so I was just had. That's what happens when you play the local shortstops, win or lose you are burned as a player.

Hu

akaTrigger
06-22-2010, 01:23 PM
Thank you for all the replies - been very helpful! I will word the title of the thread better next time... sorry for the confusion in what I was asking.

Black-Balled
06-22-2010, 01:27 PM
are you ever gonna finish that drink? turn it up and finish it!

Ooooh! I dislike the sipper,

It is a drink; not a sip~!:smile:

sixpack
06-22-2010, 01:31 PM
Thank you for all the replies - been very helpful! I will word the title of the thread better next time... sorry for the confusion in what I was asking.

When I was in the south for a few years I was accused of being a 'short stop' several times and I had no idea what it meant at the time.

But then the way I started to view it the more I heard the term from different folks in different regions compares with the baseball analogy. In baseball, the shortstop is the last hope in the infield to keep the ball in play and make the out.

Basically, if a player comes through town and plays the local talent, the shortstop is the one who tries to keep the money from leaving town. He's the town's last/best hope for keeping the money local. If the road player beats the shortstop then he gets out of the infield and makes a base hit--and leaves with the money.

Not a perfect analogy, but I have a vague vision in my head of road players cruising through the infield and then they still have to get past the shortstop to move along.

~rc

strokerace
06-22-2010, 01:37 PM
Shortstop
Also short stop, short-stop.

One of the best players in a region but who is not quite good enough to beat a serious road player or a professional.
A second-tier professional who is not (yet) ready for World Championship competition.[2][57] The term was borrowed from baseball.

This is from Wekipedia..

14-1StraightMan
06-22-2010, 01:59 PM
The term "shortstop" has been around as long as I've been involved in the pool world, since the early 60's. It referred to a good player, one that it took a strong player to beat. Every town had a shortstop or two to look out for. This was usually a player that you didn't want to play initially because it might kill all your other action. This term had nothing to do with baseball as far as I know. I have no idea of its origin either, but remember hearing it used way back when.

There were road players who were considered shortstops by their peers, and this was not a derogatory term. It just defined them as being a notch or two below the top players. In my opinion, often the difference in ability was more a matter of heart and courage than playing ability. A good shortstop might run out just as well as a top player, but not be able to get there under pressure. This was one quality that always separated the top players from the rest of us. Another factor was consistency over the long haul. A shortstop might not hold up as well in a long session as a top player. A good player could wear down a shortstop, and usually did if they played long enough.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm intimately familiar with the term shortstop, but have no idea how it came about. But if you were a shortstop, you could play. Just not as good as the big boys. :o



Jay, you hit the nail on the Head. Your right on with your statement.

Tramp Steamer
06-22-2010, 02:28 PM
Miss Trigger, you have more definitions of a shortstop than you can shake a stick at, so just let me say how nice I think your new avatar looks. It has a certain Mona Lisa quality to it. :smile:

LAMas
06-22-2010, 03:35 PM
I can change the pic if that would help :)

Ahhh yes, there they are.:smile:
141896

Thanks.

akaTrigger
06-22-2010, 04:09 PM
Miss Trigger, you have more definitions of a shortstop than you can shake a stick at, so just let me say how nice I think your new avatar looks. It has a certain Mona Lisa quality to it. :smile:

Why, thank you sir! Except now there's a thread (petition?) asking me to change it back, lol!

Ahhh yes, there they are.:smile:
141896

Thanks.

You are so funny!

jay helfert
06-22-2010, 04:38 PM
Why, thank you sir! Except now there's a thread (petition?) asking me to change it back, lol!



You are so funny!

I like the one of you in the bikini. Or was that private? :slap:

cuesmith
06-22-2010, 04:47 PM
I keep reading that "short stops" are decent players. How did the term 'shortstop' come about?

Is it suppose to be obvious to me that shortstop means a good player? Or is it a long-time pool term I just hadn't heard a lot of?

Obviously there are shortstops in baseball, so I always wondered if and how they were related to how we use the term in regard to pool players.

Don't shoot the female messenger! :o

It's a term for a strong local player who plays just under the world class pro level but can sometimes, on a good day beat a top pro. They are often working men who maybe could have been a top pro if they didn't have to work for a living. Very few working men ever make top pro status and the ones who do can't stay there usually. It seems that you have to be willing to sleep in the streets to stay off them when you're a poolplayer.

Gmanpoke
06-22-2010, 07:15 PM
I maybe wrong on this but the old man who taught me how to play was a road player from the 40s and 50s. The way I understood it, short stops were strong local players. If a road player beat a short stop the town ways dead to him. In other words, if the road player beat the short stop he would have to move onto the next town. So, if the road player beat a top local player, that town would be a short stop for him before he had to move on.

Steven

jay helfert
06-22-2010, 09:26 PM
It's a term for a strong local player who plays just under the world class pro level but can sometimes, on a good day beat a top pro. They are often working men who maybe could have been a top pro if they didn't have to work for a living. Very few working men ever make top pro status and the ones who do can't stay there usually. It seems that you have to be willing to sleep in the streets to stay off them when you're a poolplayer.


Pretty accurate here. I've seen a lot of guys with good jobs, that they would never leave, who play pool to supplement their income. Usually it takes a very strong player to beat guys like this who, more often than not, won't take the game anyway. Too smart!

There's a few like this in every city I've ever been in. They're in it for one thing - the money! They wouldn't have the time or the inclination to post on here. A little too busy doing their thing. :clapping:

markpatrick
06-22-2010, 09:38 PM
Uhmmmm.....Grady porbably coined the term....And Unfortunatly ran into one recently in Kolby's....

A short stop is a local (basically unknown) that is not to be played....You are supposed to play all the suckers and work your way up to the short stops....If you play a short stop first....It may be a "short stop" in that location.

Grady "thought" he was avoiding the short stop by not playing Gus.....in reality.....he ended up playing the short stop.

The guy that busted Grady in Arizona before his 3K match is not a short stop or he would have LOST.

Or that is what Grady would say??????:grin::grin::grin::grin:

deerhunter
06-22-2010, 10:01 PM
Not to change the subject but I think the term short stop has been definded. And not to queer anyone's action. I would like to know some of the best old time short stops. That may give us a clue to how good some short stops are.
I will start a list with a couple of my favorite players that had a full time job but had the ability to beat anyone.

1 - Kenny McCoy, Columbus Ohio
2 - Clyde Childress, Berea KY

jay helfert
06-22-2010, 10:24 PM
Not to change the subject but I think the term short stop has been definded. And not to queer anyone's action. I would like to know some of the best old time short stops. That may give us a clue to how good some short stops are.
I will start a list with a couple of my favorite players that had a full time job but had the ability to beat anyone.

1 - Kenny McCoy, Columbus Ohio
2 - Clyde Childress, Berea KY\

Judex James, George Pawelski and Mike Bandy. John Abruzzo, John Henderson and Frank Almanza are a couple more I can think of. Billy Kenyon was a real good player who always worked in the movie business as a stuntman. Dino Gounaris was a jeweler in Dayton who played strong as well. Just a few off the top of my head.

danquixote
06-22-2010, 11:32 PM
Just when I had finally begun to understand the numerous sexual innuendos associated with pool/billiards I am now expected to comprehend the homonyms of baseball origin......next shall come the polysemous homonyms as applied to all sports......and I will be forced to consult the redneck dictonary even more frequently.......dammit

akaTrigger
06-23-2010, 07:56 AM
I like the one of you in the bikini. Or was that private? :slap:

Jay, you are getting confused. It was you in the bikini, not me. :p

cardiac kid
06-23-2010, 08:44 AM
Aka,

Many, many years ago Larry Hubbart defined me as a "short stop:embarrassed2:". As he explained it to me probably thirty years ago, it's a player, not necessarily local, who wins the money on a "short stop" till the really top players showed up and relieved him of it. Therefore a "short stop".

Lyn

LAMas
06-23-2010, 08:49 AM
Jay, you are getting confused. It was you in the bikini, not me. :p

I hope he wasn't TOPLESS.:rolleyes:

FELIX
06-23-2010, 10:27 AM
Road players going from town to another would make short stops in every small town to make expence money , they would play the best player then move on , later the term became how well some one could play .

Hope this helps . and I am not going to tell you how old I am !

jay helfert
06-23-2010, 10:31 AM
Jay, you are getting confused. It was you in the bikini, not me. :p

Yeah, but it was your bikini! :grin-loving:

Ken_4fun
06-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Yeah, but it was your bikini! :grin-loving:

UGH

Good Lord strike me blind before someone posts a picture of Jay in bikini....


Ken

genomachino
06-23-2010, 11:32 PM
On the road I used to go to a town and get a line on the top 5 players. I would usually befriend a young player that knew everyone. They would tell you everything.

If I found a cheap or free place to play I would take my time. I would get the pecking order and know who liked to bet the most and went from there.

Every once in a while there would be a guy in the town that would bet alot on some of his favorites so it might be to your advantage back then to lay down a little. The longer you were there the more realistic it looked. You could become one of the boys in a real quick hurry.

People gave the name of short stop to most of these top 5 players but it should have been reserved for the top few that would bet some money and were capable of getting the cash sometimes against some of the best players around. . It was for the few that could just almost get there against most top players.

A true shortstop is a dangerous person right on the edge of playing some really great pool.

I busted Jimmy Gracek from Michigan in about 95 or 96. He had just won about 3 or 4 big tournaments. After he left we saw his picture on the front of one of the magazines.

One of the 2 guys that backed him said his buddy told him there was this shortstop in Wisconsin that would bet it up and had a nightclub named Geno's saloon.

I played $200 sets for the first 2 days. I hadn't played for about a week. Needed to get in stroke a little. They were OK with that because they were getting $500 to $1000 bet on the side with my customers.

The 3rd day my customers quit betting. i was stuck about $800 myself. They wanted me to bet more now and I felt pretty good so we started betting $1000 and eventually $1500 a set if i remember right.

They ran out of money. I'll never forget what the one backer said.

Shortstop Huh. I wish it was a shorter stop.

I not sure but the term shortstop I think was from the old days when it would be just a short stop to get the cash. Then they just started calling them shortstops.

We all know how american slang gets going. This turns into this and that turns into that.

Made sense to me........

measureman
06-24-2010, 05:16 PM
Give me your opinions was I or wasn't I a short stop.
Back in the 80's I played my best pool. I had a high run of 5 racks of 9 ball and was always a threat to run a couple of racks and did so quite often.
In straight pool I ran just over a 100 a couple of times and would occasionally run a 60 or 70 but was a solid threat to run a 40 or so .
I played Neptune Joe Frady with the 7 or 8 depending on who was in dead punch or not. Jimmy Fusco with the 8. Rodney Morris offered me the 7 and I was going to play him but his minimum bet was too high for me.
I played every living unknown human that walked in the room and beat most except a few road players. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but here are some solid facts to help determine a short stops speed.

BRKNRUN
06-24-2010, 05:35 PM
Give me your opinions was I or wasn't I a short stop.
Back in the 80's I played my best pool. I had a high run of 5 racks of 9 ball and was always a threat to run a couple of racks and did so quite often.
In straight pool I ran just over a 100 a couple of times and would occasionally run a 60 or 70 but was a solid threat to run a 40 or so .
I played Neptune Joe Frady with the 7 or 8 depending on who was in dead punch or not. Jimmy Fusco with the 8. Rodney Morris offered me the 7 and I was going to play him but his minimum bet was too high for me.
I played every living unknown human that walked in the room and beat most except a few road players. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but here are some solid facts to help determine a short stops speed.

Not quite....you have to run a hundred a "few" times...."couple" does not qualify...sorry;)

FWIW here is the break down of rankings as "Goose" sees it.

World Beater - Efren, Earl, Buddy, Segal, Helfert etc.
Pro - Max, Freezer, Cory, Hillbilly, Oscar, Rodney etc.
ShortStop - "Jimmy" (from Kolby's)
"A Rated" - It does not really matter at this point....your good...but you are still a sucker.

lfigueroa
06-24-2010, 05:36 PM
I keep reading that "short stops" are decent players. How did the term 'shortstop' come about?

Is it suppose to be obvious to me that shortstop means a good player? Or is it a long-time pool term I just hadn't heard a lot of?

Obviously there are shortstops in baseball, so I always wondered if and how they were related to how we use the term in regard to pool players.

Don't shoot the female messenger! :o



From Mike Shamos' "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards"

"shortstop

A player who can be beaten only by the top players. 1970 Fensch 161. An excellent player, but one of the second rank. 1967 Polsky 10. A professional who just misses championship form, i.e. one who 'stops short'.' The term was originated by J. Frawley, champion billiardist of Ohio, in 1887. 1898 Thatcher, 1899 Souv 18, 1925 BM (Mar) 22. Competitions were often designated as 'shortstop tournaments' to denote the caliber of players participating."

Lou Figueroa