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teedotaj
06-18-2010, 07:48 PM
What the hell did Bustamante do at 42:45 of this match? How the hell did he do that? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s

jay helfert
06-18-2010, 08:15 PM
What the hell did Bustamante do at 42:45 of this match? How the hell did he do that? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s

This is advanced stuff, like when a guy would play position in 14.1 by jumping the cue ball over a ball or balls blocking his path. Francisco knew that if he hit the object ball firmly with a draw stroke and cheated the pocket a little, that the cue ball would slide a little before drawing back up table. He made it look easy. I can only guess that when you grow up playing rotation you learn stuff like this. How to bend and twist angles.

TheWizard
06-18-2010, 08:20 PM
It looks like he just played a rail first force draw shot with a little right hand english to make sure he would get the CB upstairs to the balcony for the 6 :)

With the cloth and balls being new, the force of the speed and the draw would've naturally made the cubeall slide forward a little before the spin grabs the cloth and takes effect, and he basically used this to his advantage on the shot :)

Do you guys agree? :)

Willie

ShootingArts
06-18-2010, 08:20 PM
What the hell did Bustamante do at 42:45 of this match? How the hell did he do that? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s

My first thought was rail first too but the replay shows that isn't what happened. His preshot and stroke is so deceptive it is hard to see but it looks like it was pure power stroke with a little draw and maybe a little side. Look how much the rail compresses under the cue ball after it hits the object ball. Looks like it rebounded well off the rail before the draw took effect and started curving it back. Looks to me like there was enough power in the shot that he would have gotten a lot more draw had he hit the cue ball as low as possible.

Of course there are lies, damned lies, and video tape. I could be completely wrong.

Edit: There is a slow motion overhead at the end of the match. Unless my eyeballs need calibrating it clearly shows the cue ball hitting the rail after hitting the object ball.

TheWizard
06-18-2010, 08:24 PM
This is advanced stuff, like when a guy would play position in 14.1 by jumping the cue ball over a ball or balls blocking his path. Francisco knew that if he hit the object ball firmly with a draw stroke and cheated the pocket a little, that the cue ball would slide a little before drawing back up table. He made it look easy. I can only guess that when you grow up playing rotation you learn stuff like this. How to bend and twist angles.

You're right about that Jay, but you also forgot about bank pool :) lol

Banks players learn how to turn the ball on the rail when playing a bank shot, as well as how to use different speeds to create different angles off the rails :)

I feel that Rotation, Banks, 1-Pocket and Straight Pool are the ultimate games to learn how to play well, to help become a good player :)

Willie

dirtypool40
06-18-2010, 08:24 PM
I liken it to golf. A local 10 handicap can draw or fade the ball. A Pro can "shape" the shot more, and adapt it to more situations.

TheWizard
06-18-2010, 08:26 PM
My first thought was rail first too but the replay shows that isn't what happened. His preshot and stroke is so deceptive it is hard to see but it looks like it was pure power stroke with a little draw and maybe a little side. Look how much the rail compresses under the cue ball after it hits the object ball. Looks like it rebounded well off the rail before the draw took effect and started curving it back. Looks to me like there was enough power in the shot that he would have gotten a lot more draw had he hit the cue ball as low as possible.

Of course there are lies, damned lies, and video tape. I could be completely wrong.

Edit: There is a slow motion overhead at the end of the match. Unless my eyeballs need calibrating it clearly shows the cue ball hitting the rail after hitting the object ball.

lmao, I didn't think he hit the rail first either, but I couldn't decide on whether to call it as a rail first force draw or not :) lol

Oh well, I goofed :P

Willie

ShootingArts
06-18-2010, 08:34 PM
lmao, I didn't think he hit the rail first either, but I couldn't decide on whether to call it as a rail first force draw or not :) lol

Oh well, I goofed :P

Willie


Willie,

I'm just throwing my opinion out there, not saying it is the right one. :D From the side view I guessed rail first, had to revise myself when I saw the overhead. Whatever he did it was a neat trick. I would have went rail first but then I ain't Bustamonte!

Hu

Neil
06-18-2010, 08:36 PM
.............

teedotaj
06-19-2010, 12:19 AM
what a stroke then! im guessing it takes a heck of a stroke to be able to delay the bend like that. i love busty! lol

now that i think about it after reading all the stuff you guys wrote..it is very similar to that corey deuel shot where he put inside eng. but it didnt take off in the first side rail but it did on the second side rail going the opposite way.

LAlouie
06-19-2010, 02:07 AM
It's not rail first. He just rammed the cb into the rail very hard and it had no recourse but to bounce away from the rail. Consider,,,if all Busta wanted to do was draw back like the announcers expected, he would've used a nice smooth stroke. He hit the cb hard so that it would bounce off the rail hard and away from the 7.

And btw, that was cr@ppy replaying on that shot. They only showed it once for the viewers.

Neil
06-19-2010, 04:56 AM
..............

paksat
06-19-2010, 07:18 AM
It looks like he just played a rail first force draw shot with a little right hand english to make sure he would get the CB upstairs to the balcony for the 6 :)

With the cloth and balls being new, the force of the speed and the draw would've naturally made the cubeall slide forward a little before the spin grabs the cloth and takes effect, and he basically used this to his advantage on the shot :)

Do you guys agree? :)

Willie

This, go on youtube and "shane van boening stroke shot" and you'll see what's done much clearly.

paksat
06-19-2010, 07:20 AM
After seeing the replay n/m... i woulda went rail first but I guess he wasn't as comfortable with it as I would be.

KoolKat9Lives
06-19-2010, 08:28 AM
Great shot. I want to practice this baby and put it in the arsenal. Rep-worthy fo sho! :thumbup:

At 43:55 they show slow mo replay of it.

You'll notice pretty clearly he hits on the left side of the 4, that the rail reaches max compression AFTER contact with the 4, and he cheats the pocket to get the CB to bounce more off the rail. The 4 almost jars out due to his cheat.

It also seems obvious to me he's put a tough of right/inside on the CB, I believe to further get the CB off the rail.



KK9 <-- recalls starting the thread "forcing the CB off the rail, does inside help?" and that the responses were quite varied. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=185201

monchiwai
06-19-2010, 08:37 AM
I might be wrong but I believe he hits the object ball first and with a touch of inside English, the cue ball came off the rail more and then it took...

TheWizard
02-03-2013, 08:11 AM
I concur with KoolKat9Lives

He definitely played to cheat the pocket, but he played in a way of using the slide of the new cloth and balls to his advantage, by playing a force draw shot that would allow the cb to slide out a little from the rail before the draw english grab the cloth and rolled up for shape on the 6.

I have played force draw shots similar to this in the past and when shooting on new cloth, it's much easier to use the slickness of the cloth to your advantage on certain shots like Buste played on the #4.

maestro de pool
02-03-2013, 09:18 AM
well start practice it !!!!

peter_gunn
02-03-2013, 10:36 AM
.............

.............

:thumbup:

PoolBum
02-03-2013, 11:30 AM
It looks like he just played a rail first force draw shot with a little right hand english to make sure he would get the CB upstairs to the balcony for the 6 :)

With the cloth and balls being new, the force of the speed and the draw would've naturally made the cubeall slide forward a little before the spin grabs the cloth and takes effect, and he basically used this to his advantage on the shot :)

Do you guys agree? :)

Willie

Nope, it's a ball first shot, cheating the pocket a little to create slightly more angle, and punching it hard so the cueball pops out off the rail first, and then the draw takes and the cueball moves up table for the 6. Just like Jay said.

lastdimetaker
02-03-2013, 06:44 PM
I watched it over and over imo he jumped the cue ball slightly and it landed so perfect that it hit object ball then bounced into the rail which nudged it over to draw around that other ball. I hope i worded it correctly. Look at the cue ball it is in air then hit ball then rail then the draw took hold.

tank69
02-03-2013, 06:53 PM
He played rail first.

CJ Wiley
02-03-2013, 08:37 PM
I might be wrong but I believe he hits the object ball first and with a touch of inside English, the cue ball came off the rail more and then it took...

This is a routine "TOI" shot.

buddha162
02-03-2013, 08:56 PM
This is a routine "TOI" shot.

Lmao are you going to jump in anytime anyone types "touch of inside"? Maybe you can get Busty to claim a 10% improvement in his game after watching your dvds.

-roger

Sandman
02-03-2013, 09:02 PM
This is advanced stuff, like when a guy would play position in 14.1 by jumping the cue ball over a ball or balls blocking his path. Francisco knew that if he hit the object ball firmly with a draw stroke and cheated the pocket a little, that the cue ball would slide a little before drawing back up table. He made it look easy. I can only guess that when you grow up playing rotation you learn stuff like this. How to bend and twist angles.

Well explained and simply put Jay!
Nice job by the way as always.
Thanks for all you do for pool!

PistolPat
02-03-2013, 11:39 PM
It's crazy to me because there are some really good players I have come across that can shoot lights out but when it comes to a stroke shot like this, they become mere mortals. You want great draw stroke with control on angle..get ur hands on the 2007 us open 9 ball match of efren vs alcano where efren power stroke draws the 1 and it just hits, curves and stalls..then darts back into a cluster that was holding up the 2 ball..needless to say it was MAGIC.

jsp
02-04-2013, 12:40 AM
It also seems obvious to me he's put a tough of right/inside on the CB, I believe to further get the CB off the rail.
Bingo on the inside english. Without the inside, the CB wouldn't have have reacted that way off the rail. It allowed the CB to go slightly past the CB/OB tangent line, giving the CB more time to get off the rail before the draw spin took effect.

CJ Wiley
02-04-2013, 02:08 AM
Lmao are you going to jump in anytime anyone types "touch of inside"? Maybe you can get Busty to claim a 10% improvement in his game after watching your dvds.

-roger

We have an "inside alert" hooked up to the internet...it's like the Bat Signal, but flashes a TOI in the sky.:yeah:

Watch the run out that Bustemante performs and tell me he doesn't use TOI on every shot. I've played him many times and I can tell by how the cue ball comes off the object ball. Watch closely and you'll see the "floating effect" of the TOI. Also watch how heavy his cue ball reacts too, this is also a sign.

plague
02-04-2013, 02:24 AM
with a tip of inside...it will get that CB of the rail...AND will make the ball drop easier especially helpful on tight pockets. just a tip, not so much to have difficulty aiming because of deflection

arps
02-04-2013, 02:39 AM
he kinda did almost the same shot at 45:47

hang-the-9
02-04-2013, 06:12 AM
What the hell did Bustamante do at 42:45 of this match? How the hell did he do that? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s

It was probably low inside. Inside english bounced it off he rail out a bit, and the draw grabbed when it was past the other ball. I have seen that shot explained in a few books, pretty sure Byrne has it in one of his books.

CreeDo
02-04-2013, 09:29 AM
Haha, how'd this one get dragged up again after 3 years? Well anyway it's still a good shot and interesting to discuss.

Here's a freeze-frame at the moment of impact or just after.

http://i.imgur.com/VTrEHgM.jpg

What this shows is:

1. Not rail first, the cue ball is touching the rail a millesecond after the 4 is already flying away.

We can also forget about jumping the ball. There IS a jump shot trick to move the cue ball when there's no angle... but this is not that trick. I saw Niels use the jump trick recently in his straight pool match with Max E. on insidepool.tv.

2. Lots of pocket cheat. The 4 is clearly moving towards the left edge of the pocket (from our perspective... it's the right edge from busty's)

3. Definitely inside english being used. You can see his cue is off to the side (and if you review the replay, you can see he started out that way.

What I believe (and I'll try testing) is that inside is not necessary to get this kind of stun draw. Only a firm slightly-below-center hit. If you hit full draw it starts backwards right away and bumps the 7. If you hit center it stuns sideways without coming backwards at all. So the secret is to hit the sweet spot right in between.

About the inside spin:

When players try this shot with inside, I believe their thinking is something like this:
- Inside causes a ball to undercut a little
- Therefore, to compensate, you must cut the ball a little more.
- So in addition to cheating the pocket, I can overcut it a hair, and just use inside spin to cancel out my overcut. The spin throws it back into the hole.

But this may actually be wrong. With a lot of testing Dr. Dave confirmed that spin-induced throw only works at lower speeds. At high speed (like the busty shot) it has very little effect. The cue ball doesn't spend enough time in contact with the object ball grab it and noticeably change its path.

So, what I believe is that most of the work is done by cheating the pocket, turning a very slight angle into a larger one... and hitting closer to center ball than usual to increase the amount of sideways stun.

I guess it's possible there's some subtle way inside can alter the path, like it's rotating on a diagonal axis, and for a second after contact it isn't moving much and kind of "peels out" like a car spinning its wheels, except the wheel is spinning at a diagonal angle instead of the straight backward angle you'd get with center draw.

I'll try setting it up, should be fun to test.

bdorman
02-04-2013, 09:43 AM
He used the same stroke at 45:48. The 4-ball was a little further from the rail, but basically the same challenge.

CJ Wiley
02-04-2013, 09:56 AM
Haha, how'd this one get dragged up again after 3 years? Well anyway it's still a good shot and interesting to discuss.

Here's a freeze-frame at the moment of impact or just after.

http://i.imgur.com/VTrEHgM.jpg

What this shows is:

1. Not rail first, the cue ball is touching the rail a millesecond after the 4 is already flying away.

We can also forget about jumping the ball. There IS a jump shot trick to move the cue ball when there's no angle... but this is not that trick. I saw Niels use the jump trick recently in his straight pool match with Max E. on insidepool.tv.

2. Lots of pocket cheat. The 4 is clearly moving towards the left edge of the pocket (from our perspective... it's the right edge from busty's)

3. Definitely inside english being used. You can see his cue is off to the side (and if you review the replay, you can see he started out that way.

What I believe (and I'll try testing) is that inside is not necessary to get this kind of stun draw. Only a firm slightly-below-center hit. If you hit full draw it starts backwards right away and bumps the 7. If you hit center it stuns sideways without coming backwards at all. So the secret is to hit the sweet spot right in between.

About the inside spin:

When players try this shot with inside, I believe their thinking is something like this:
- Inside causes a ball to undercut a little
- Therefore, to compensate, you must cut the ball a little more.
- So in addition to cheating the pocket, I can overcut it a hair, and just use inside spin to cancel out my overcut. The spin throws it back into the hole.

But this may actually be wrong. With a lot of testing Dr. Dave confirmed that spin-induced throw only works at lower speeds. At high speed (like the busty shot) it has very little effect. The cue ball doesn't spend enough time in contact with the object ball grab it and noticeably change its path.

So, what I believe is that most of the work is done by cheating the pocket, turning a very slight angle into a larger one... and hitting closer to center ball than usual to increase the amount of sideways stun.

I guess it's possible there's some subtle way inside can alter the path, like it's rotating on a diagonal axis, and for a second after contact it isn't moving much and kind of "peels out" like a car spinning its wheels, except the wheel is spinning at a diagonal angle instead of the straight backward angle you'd get with center draw.

I'll try setting it up, should be fun to test.


I've executed this type shot quite a bit in my playing career. The "inside contact" actually deflects the cue ball so it over-cuts the object ball slightly (it doesn't have time to spin much). This means you can hit the object ball quite a bit fuller. I've been saying this is something you have to experience because it doesn't 'make sense unless you do.

Those of you that are experimenting with the "Inside Knowledge" will understand this type shot on a different level now. It comes up in many different ways, and situations.

When you hit the cue ball in a very specific spot you can generate this type reaction on the cue ball. It's not as much stroke as it is precision on your tip/cue ball accuracy.

We road players call this particular shot "Pinning" the cue ball.

jsp
02-04-2013, 10:04 AM
I guess it's possible there's some subtle way inside can alter the path, like it's rotating on a diagonal axis, and for a second after contact it isn't moving much and kind of "peels out" like a car spinning its wheels, except the wheel is spinning at a diagonal angle instead of the straight backward angle you'd get with center draw.
Interesting analysis. I think what you say above is kinda a secondary effect for using inside. But as I mentioned previously, I think the primary effect of inside is for the CB to move forward slightly (beyond the CB/OB tangent line) after hitting the rail. This gives the CB more time to move laterally in order to clear the 7 before the draw spin takes effect.

If inside wasn't used, then there would be absolutely no forward movement of the CB after hitting the rail such that the draw would kick in much sooner and the CB would draw back at a much steeper angle. But the amount Busty cheated the pocket and the force he it the shot, the CB probably still would have cleared the 7 even if he hit it without inside. But inside definitely made the draw arc much wider.

CreeDo
02-05-2013, 09:19 AM
Interesting analysis. I think what you say above is kinda a secondary effect for using inside. But as I mentioned previously, I think the primary effect of inside is for the CB to move forward slightly (beyond the CB/OB tangent line) after hitting the rail. This gives the CB more time to move laterally in order to clear the 7 before the draw spin takes effect.

If inside wasn't used, then there would be absolutely no forward movement of the CB after hitting the rail such that the draw would kick in much sooner and the CB would draw back at a much steeper angle. But the amount Busty cheated the pocket and the force he it the shot, the CB probably still would have cleared the 7 even if he hit it without inside. But inside definitely made the draw arc much wider.

So you're saying the inside lets it hit the OB, hit the rail, then spin off the rail "uphill" a bit before starting to suck backwards? I can sort of see the logic in that.

I feel pretty confident that inside vs. outside doesn't affect how early the draw 'takes'. But I'll try it myself. Dr. Dave tested this one and took high-speed videos of 'quick draw' using center, inside, and outside. In all three cases the ball took the same path.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-25.htm

I don't think sidespin has any affect on how far sideways the ball goes before going backwards, it's all about how fat you hit the ball. If you use inside to deflect a little and overcut the ball (which I think is what CJ is getting at)... you also could just 'manually' aim to overcut it the same amount, and use center draw to get the same path.

tank69
02-05-2013, 09:29 AM
Great freeze frame...I stand corrected! BTW, great explanation

PistolPat
02-06-2013, 02:33 AM
The trick with his shot is how hard he hit it...the spin has a delayed effect due to how hard he hit it so what happens is that the cue ball follows the natural tangent of the shot, bounces off the rail THEN the spin finally takes effect and the ball spins back. no inside on this whatsoever..just smart play by knowing the angle. Watch how the dots spin, its why they are there so you can see what kind of english is being used if any...

arps
02-06-2013, 04:16 AM
^my thoughts too. the CB bounced off the rail first, then spin takes effect.

jsp
02-06-2013, 06:36 AM
The trick with his shot is how hard he hit it...the spin has a delayed effect due to how hard he hit it so what happens is that the cue ball follows the natural tangent of the shot, bounces off the rail THEN the spin finally takes effect and the ball spins back. no inside on this whatsoever..just smart play by knowing the angle. Watch how the dots spin, its why they are there so you can what kind of english is being used if any...
Look at the slow motion viewed at the angle where the shot goes across the TV screen (left to right). After the CB makes contact with the OB and rail, the CB actually moves forward past the tangent line (in direction of the pocket) by at least half a ball before it spins backwards. If there was no inside used, then physics says that it would have been impossible for the CB to move forward after contact with the OB and rail.

As others mentioned, Busty used the same exact stroke @45:48. It is more evident in that shot that inside was used.

CreeDo
02-06-2013, 09:10 AM
The trick with his shot is how hard he hit it...the spin has a delayed effect due to how hard he hit it so what happens is that the cue ball follows the natural tangent of the shot, bounces off the rail THEN the spin finally takes effect and the ball spins back. no inside on this whatsoever..just smart play by knowing the angle. Watch how the dots spin, its why they are there so you can what kind of english is being used if any...

I do agree with you about how this shot is made, the force (plus hitting closer to center, rather than maximum draw) is what gets it to stun sideways first.

However to be fair, he definitely put inside on it. They show his warmup swings and you can also see his stick lined up to the right (his right) in the freeze frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FTGMZVben94#t=2632s

I don't think the inside was 100% necessary, but it probably does explain why the ball went forward a hair (as JSP pointed out) before sucking backwards.

scsuxci
02-06-2013, 10:11 AM
What the hell did Bustamante do at 42:45 of this match? How the hell did he do that? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s
Unless I missed something,what did he do ?It looked like a normal nice run-out to me.

CreeDo
02-06-2013, 02:30 PM
Unless I missed something,what did he do ?It looked like a normal nice run-out to me.

I think the original link was like 1 second too late to show the nice shot he made.
But if you keep watching, they replay it in slo-mo.

Basically he fell pretty straight on that ball on the rail, but was able to handle it with a
very nice stun draw shot that did a little curve around the interfering 7 ball.
If he had just done normal draw he'd have bumped the 7 for sure.