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JB Cases
06-18-2010, 10:43 PM
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?

06-18-2010, 11:04 PM
I don't agree.

PS

I wish I was as good as posting as you!

Cameron Smith
06-18-2010, 11:12 PM
I think the first point is a bit of nit-picking of terms, I've heard said it both ways. I just call it top, bottom and side.

On the second point, you are right about top spin. However, where this instructor is claiming top and bottom are not english, he isn't including them in his statement. He is only referring to side, in which case your not disagreeing with him.

JB Cases
06-18-2010, 11:13 PM
I don't agree.

PS

I wish I was as good as posting as you!

Practice my young student. With only 900 posts you are but a padawan in this game. Everyone knows that to to become a true Jedi-posting master you can only get there through the make-a-million posts method. :-)

-----oh and Google and Wikipedia and YouTube are your friends! :-)

JB Cases
06-18-2010, 11:19 PM
I think the first point is a bit of nit-picking of terms, I've heard said it both ways. I just call it top, bottom and side.

On the second point, you are right about top spin. However, where this instructor is claiming top and bottom are not english, he isn't including them in his statement. He is only referring to side, in which case your not disagreeing with him.

Well it's an important nit to pick I would think. I understand that you have heard it both ways so which way do you think is correct? Is top spin also top english?

My bone to pick on the second claim is that it's misleading since it doesn't tell the student that top and bottom spin alter the path imediately after impact. In other words this instructor is busting myths that don't exist and creating new ones. At least that is how I see it.

This is the problem with YouTube and the net in general. Anyone can post bad advice and who knows how many people will use that bad advice.

Well, anyway I am NOT an instructor, I am a student of the game and luckily for me I am beyond this particular instructor's level of advice.

gunzby
06-18-2010, 11:25 PM
Correct
Top and bottom are not considered English.....only left and right are considered to be so.

I am unsure as to the origination of why side spin is considered English, but I do know that follow and draw are not considered so.

*edit*
I am drunk which explains my slightly strange English ;)

12squared
06-18-2010, 11:40 PM
Hi John,

I've always used "english" to describe left & right spin, anything on the vertical axis was not labelled as such. However, it's just the way I was taught to describe the cueball hit - but you are 100% right that once you leave center, all spin principals apply. So with that said, you are probably right.

Regarding tangent line or how the cueball leaves the object ball, of course high & low "spin/english" will have an effect on the direction of the cueball overall, but not at the point of contact, the alteration takes effect only after the cueball has enough time to bend. Note the 30 degree rule: if the cue ball is rolling forward when hitting the object ball, it will go apprx 30 degrees vs 90 degrees following the tangent line if it was hit with a stun stroke. So functionally, yes, "english/spin" does have an effect.

In addition, I believe that left & right spin can alter the path of the cueball also. Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change, but because that contact point would be different than a center ball hit to make the same shot. The side spin throws the object ball slightly so you can hit it fuller or thinner than with center ball. Plus the path of the cueball is slightly different because of swerve or whatever you want to call it.

I hope some of this makes sense...it's late for me.

Dave

ShootingArts
06-18-2010, 11:52 PM
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?

John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 12:40 AM
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu

Oh it's you, the stalker.

Here you go Mr. Stalker,

"The leather tip lost its effectiveness when it became shiny with use and had to be replaced frequently. An English billiards teacher, Jack Carr, learned that putting chalk on the tip prevented miscues. He was also evidently the first player to hit the ball off-center to apply spin."

From this source: http://www.hickoksports.com/history/billiard.shtml

I don't feel like going to my Billiard Encyclopedia which I am sure would back me up here.

My point is that we talk about top spin and back spin, reverse english, top english (do I need to look these up for you as well as to use or can you believe me?) I understand Hu that you have a pseudo-academic and embellished experienced approach to discussing pool but surely you understand that some people refer to top and bottom also as English.

And surely you understand at least on some level that top and bottom affect the direction of the cue ball? That much at least we learn from Dr. Dave Alciatore with his excellent video series, also on YouTube. Perhaps the first BCA instructor would benefit from studying those videos.

The British call it side and screw respectively.

You better get on these folks as well and tell them proper term for applying force to the cue ball above center - what is that term again?

http://www.poolskill.com/yahoo-pool-guide/earning-skills/beginners/using-english/high/

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 12:44 AM
Correct
Top and bottom are not considered English.....only left and right are considered to be so.

I am unsure as to the origination of why side spin is considered English, but I do know that follow and draw are not considered so.

*edit*
I am drunk which explains my slightly strange English ;)

Do you have a source on this?

I only ask because before the use of chalk it was just as hard to draw or follow as it was to apply side spin. Try it and see what happens.

gunzby
06-19-2010, 12:48 AM
Do you have a source on this?

I only ask because before the use of chalk it was just as hard to draw or follow as it was to apply side spin. Try it and see what happens.

Here is a quick link I found searching Google for the origination of English (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pool-Billiards-2283/origin-words.htm)

12310bch
06-19-2010, 02:19 AM
Apparently I will have to re-post this every 6-months or so in order for the question to be general knowledge.

It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Swedish had a traditional dish of fermented fish called ," Ingglisch." It was eaten as a side dish to the entree.
For right- handed diners it was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed diners it was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch.

Swedish pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch. When Swedish pool players traveled to England for tournaments the English players heard this reference and, being as arrogant as they were, thought that the Swedes were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingglisch or bottom Ingglisch.

I think the matter is now settled.

Rak9up
06-19-2010, 02:51 AM
Apparently I will have to re-post this every 6-months or so in order for the question to be general knowledge.

It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Swedish had a traditional dish of fermented fish called ," Ingglisch." It was eaten as a side dish to the entree.
For right- handed diners it was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed diners it was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch.

Swedish pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch. When Swedish pool players traveled to England for tournaments the English players heard this reference and, being as arrogant as they were, thought that the Swedes were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingglisch or bottom Ingglisch.

I think the matter is now settled.

It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Chineese loved the American Big Mac which in Chineese is called ,ping pong pow wu wa wu but it was just easier to order it calling it " Ingerish." It was eaten as a main dish with chopsticks and rice.
For right- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingerish or left Ingerish.

Chineese pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingerish or left Ingerish. When Chineese pool players traveled to America for tournaments the American players heard this reference and, being just how they talked always adding "R's" they thought that the Chineese were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingerish or bottom Ingerish.

I think the matter is now settled

9bizzle
06-19-2010, 02:56 AM
I didn't know the exact origin of the word, but I don't think it's neccessary to know that to understand that sidespin is "english" and top/botttom, center ball, high/low, along the center axis is follow, stun or stop, and draw. Sure, you can combine the two, english with draw or follow, but they are different animals with different purposes. I thought it was fairly common knowledge among pool players. Every instructional book I have ever read will back me up on this.

12310bch
06-19-2010, 03:18 AM
It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Chineese loved the American Big Mac which in Chineese is called ,ping pong pow wu wa wu but it was just easier to order it calling it " Ingerish." It was eaten as a main dish with chopsticks and rice.
For right- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingerish or left Ingerish.

Chineese pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingerish or left Ingerish. When Chineese pool players traveled to America for tournaments the American players heard this reference and, being just how they talked always adding "R's" they thought that the Chineese were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingerish or bottom Ingerish.

I think the matter is now settled

lmfao:rotflmao1: But tell me , how do the Chinese pronounce ,"Pool?"
and also I thought the chinese Big Mac was called," How Now Blown Cow."

Blue Hog ridr
06-19-2010, 03:29 AM
Everyone knows that Chuck Norris invented the spinning left and right side kicks, and the stun shot. So, from here on in, left, right and stun shall be known as putting some Chuck on the ball. Otay.

JasonCrugar
06-19-2010, 03:37 AM
Everyone knows that Chuck Norris invented the spinning left and right side kicks, and the stun shot. So, from here on in, left, right and stun shall be known as putting some Chuck on the ball. Otay.

i put so much chuck on it the fuggin ball exploded... now if we could those aiming crackpots to just admit experience beats any aiming system...

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 03:46 AM
Well if I am wrong then I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. I have always understood "English" to the be the term applied to all forms of spin on the ball. Of course in conversation among players we never say top english, instead we just say top, we never say left english, we just say left, as in I hit it with a tip of low left, or a tip of draw.

I have cracked the Billiard Encyclopedia and there is some interesting reading there. Namely that Mignaud did not invent the leather tip but that he discovered how to dome it for maximum effect and that chalk was used before it's "supposed discovery by Bartley and Carr in the early 1820s".

And in that book on page 257 there is a quote about using spin - which refers to both side spin and follow and draw - whereby the authors of the BE, make no distinction just for sidespin and refer to all the spin types as "english" when describing the 1806's author's familiarity of it.

Therefore I conclude for the moment that "english" refers to ALL manner of meaningful spin generated by an off center hit. Not the tiny bit that you get when you miscue as it what happens when an off center hit is tried without chalk.

It is my further conclusion that without the use of chalk or a suitable substitute the cueball action which can be obtained with a chalked tip are nearly impossible. Therefore the term English should be applied to all forms of such spin that alter the path of the cueball from the tangent line or after striking a rail.

Thus draw, follow, reverse, top, left and right and all combinations thereof all fall under the category of "english" or spin and should be accordingly treated as such by certified instructors. In my opinion of course.

Had I not sold my book collection many years ago I would go through them and see how authors have treated these terms. At the moment I only have the Gospool by Freddy B. Freddy doesn't concern himself with such trivial things like what "english" is or isn't and instead the tone figures that if you don't know it then you are probably an "egg". (from his glossary).

And yes, pool is one hell of a drug. It's the high you can't buy.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 03:48 AM
Well if I am wrong then I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. I have always understood "English" to the be the term applied to all forms of spin on the ball. Of course in conversation among players we never say top english, instead we just say top, we never say left english, we just say left, as in I hit it with a tip of low left, or a tip of draw.

I have cracked the Billiard Encyclopedia and there is some interesting reading there. Namely that Mignaud did not invent the leather tip but that he discovered how to dome it for maximum effect and that chalk was used before it's "supposed discovery by Bartley and Carr in the early 1820s".

And in that book on page 257 there is a quote about using spin - which refers to both side spin and follow and draw - whereby the authors of the BE, make no distinction just for sidespin and refer to all the spin types as "english" when describing the 1806's author's familiarity of it.

Therefore I conclude for the moment that "english" refers to ALL manner of meaningful spin generated by an off center hit. Not the tiny bit that you get when you miscue as it what happens when an off center hit is tried without chalk.

It is my further conclusion that without the use of chalk or a suitable substitute the cueball action which can be obtained with a chalked tip are nearly impossible. Therefore the term English should be applied to all forms of such spin that alter the path of the cueball from the tangent line or after striking a rail.

Thus draw, follow, reverse, top, left and right and all combinations thereof all fall under the category of "english" or spin and should be accordingly treated as such by certified instructors. In my opinion of course.

Had I not sold my book collection many years ago I would go through them and see how authors have treated these terms. At the moment I only have the Gospool by Freddy B. Freddy doesn't concern himself with such trivial things like what "english" is or isn't and instead the tone figures that if you don't know it then you are probably an "egg". (from his glossary).

And yes, pool is one hell of a drug. It's the high you can't buy.

BRKNRUN
06-19-2010, 03:48 AM
Practice my young student. With only 900 posts you are but a padawan in this game. Everyone knows that to to become a true Jedi-posting master you can only get there through the make-a-million posts method. :-)

-----oh and Google and Wikipedia and YouTube are your friends! :-)

Not true!!! There are many posting systems that will help speed up the process..

Have you not heard of....

The Gost Posting System?
The Three Key System? (all posts can be made using only three keys)

Of course there is also some CTE posting system that is being used by some...........Rumor has it that only Sith Lords on the Dark Side know how to use it........;)

BTW....I don't think BCA instructors have a set foundation of teaching principles....at least not in "print" anywhere...It does not appear to be too difficult to get "certified".....www.bca-pool.com

An another note....I have heard on more than one occaision and "English" person ask why Americans refer to it as English???? The English refer to it as "side" or "screw"

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 04:07 AM
Here is a quick link I found searching Google for the origination of English (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pool-Billiards-2283/origin-words.htm)

Yeah, I don't think that this one counts.

Something like this one carries a little more weight for the idea that only side spin counts as "english"

Life Magazine Article (http://books.google.com/books?id=jFQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=RA1-PA162&lpg=RA1-PA162&dq=jack+carr+english+side+spin&source=bl&ots=FQ-Yrl_wIi&sig=Cem4pvhLqafyiiBs2wsfRwQ_AJE&hl=en&ei=tFQcTInOKtefnweRlbSLDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=jack%20carr%20english%20side%20spin&f=false)

but I still defer to the Billiard Encyclopedia's 3rd Edition by Stein and Rubino as probably the most authoritative book we have that covers the subject.

Mike in MN
06-19-2010, 04:12 AM
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu

Seriously, why? Why must you always try to incite a riot with John? If you don't have anything nice to say, click out of his threads. It's that simple.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 04:25 AM
BTW....I don't think BCA instructors have a set foundation of teaching principles....at least not in "print" anywhere...It does not appear to be too difficult to get "certified".....www.bca-pool.com

An another note....I have heard on more than one occaision and "English" person ask why Americans refer to it as English???? The English refer to it as "side" or "screw"

On the other side of the pond the English even have the endearing term "deep screw" to refer to very low backspin.

Didn't we have a thread about a year or so ago about an APA3 who got BCA certification as an instructor?

Now I am the last person who thinks that a person has to be able to DO what he is teaching in order to instruct and we certainly have had THAT discussion many times here. I think that it might be wise if the BCA made it a requirement that regular instructors not be allowed to do videos teaching pool. Perhaps it's better if these inexperienced teachers would learn their craft a little better and get an advanced certification before making themselves into YouTube stars. My thinking here is that they don't necessarily know HOW to teach yet and probably should not be trying to put out content to be consumed by beginners who might actually be harmed by the bite chunks of concepts when they really need personal instruction.

I am certain that this particular instructor was well meaning but I find his content to be inaccurate or if not entirely inaccurate then not inclusive or explanatory enough for the intended audience.

Thus the reason for the moratorium on allowing rookie instructors to make videos.

Or not. It's a new world and anyone with a camera can be a star without having to answer to anyone else for the content they put up. (within some parameters of course.)

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 04:43 AM
Seriously, why? Why must you always try to incite a riot with John? If you don't have anything nice to say, click out of his threads. It's that simple.

I think you go reread the post he made. It starts out with telling me I am wrong to question an instructor's instruction and ask AZ's opinion. Then of course he calls into question my ability to discern the situation and quote properly.

Then he gets around to discussing the topic.

Does Hu NEED to be here in the thread I started? Could it survive and the topic, which is "what is english and does it affect the cue ball's path?", be discussed without his participation and comment's about me personally?

No he doesn't need to be here. He chose to post and chose to be antagonistic. As he said before, "that's the way I roll" in reference to his intention to be rude and harassing at ever increasing levels.

But as you can see I came back with a reference to "top english" as well as further references gleaned from the Billiard Encyclopedia.

Sorry I don't sit around and make up stories about my "playing days". I can name names and get within a month or so for all my stories. I don't make up vague references to busting hustlers and wax forth as if I have been the greatest undercover player the world has known. Hu does that. I don't normally care, when I start reading one of those stories I just skip it because I feel it's likely untrue and is boring anyway. I skip ahead to the moral just like I do with fairy tales.

If he wants to discuss things without getting personal then by all means. But if he wants to stalk me through the forum with personal attacks just as he did here in this thread then I will call a spade a spade.

My mom didn't teach me to not say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say. She taught me too stand up for myself. I won't be bullied or insulted by Hu without rebuttal. If that offends you then I'd suggest you stop reading when you see his name and mine in the same thread because you might see me going off if he decides to be obnoxious.

You can clearly see that I don't hold a grudge as I have posted in at least one other thread along with him and not said a word TO HIM or ABOUT HIM.

Scaramouche
06-19-2010, 04:58 AM
According to the dictionary

"The spin given to a propelled ball by striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist."

Side isn't top or bottom

The synonym for english: side spin

Hambone
06-19-2010, 05:49 AM
[QUOTE=JB Cases;2472616]I have cracked the Billiard Encyclopedia and there is some interesting reading there. Namely that Mignaud did not invent the leather tip but that he discovered how to dome it for maximum effect and that chalk was used before it's "supposed discovery by Bartley and Carr in the early 1820s".

Does the Billiard Encyclopedia give a source for this information? This would be the first time I have ever heard of Mignaud not being given credit for inventing the tip.

Neil
06-19-2010, 06:04 AM
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?

I agree with him. I have always considered english to mean only side spin. Above the equator is follow, below is draw, dead center is center ball. It's only very recently that I have heard anyone say anything except dead center is english.

And, if you take his premise on what english is, then he is also correct on part two of his statement.

Realizm
06-19-2010, 06:04 AM
I love too see that cb move . I use it a lot i can get around the table very well . It's not how hard you hit the cb with, it it's how soft you do when using English . it's great to know but hard to master..

Tramp Steamer
06-19-2010, 06:23 AM
[QUOTE=JB Cases;2472543]Oh it's you, the stalker.

Are we going to go through another week with you on something?
Hu's statement was correct. Agree with it, or don't, but how about leaving the shit stirring out of it.

pooltchr
06-19-2010, 06:23 AM
John,
Since you know me, I think you will agree that I have a little bit of knowledge about playing and teaching pool.
One of the keys to being a capable instructor is the ability to clearly articulate ideas to your students. I always use the terms right and left english and top(follow) or bottom (draw) in my classes for clarity. What you call it isn't as important as what you know about it.

As for the path the cue ball takes after separation, in theory, pure side spin isn't going to change things. In practical application, it is virtually impossible to have pure side spin because it is virtuallin impossible to have a perfectly level cue due to the elevation required to get the cue over the rails.

A cue ball with no spin at all upon contact with the object ball will separate at 90 degrees and continue in a straight path. If the cue ball has no forward or backward spin, but does have side spin, it will still separate at 90 degrees, and stay on track, since it would be spinning like a top, until some outside force (gravity and friction) cause the rotational energy to change the spin direction.

So while I underatand what the instructor was trying to say, I think there may have been something lost in the translation. Knowledge is a great thing, but the ability to communicate that knowledge with clarity is what allows some instructors to be better than others.

Steve

(How's my case coming along? :wink:

Tramp Steamer
06-19-2010, 06:28 AM
Seriously, why? Why must you always try to incite a riot with John? If you don't have anything nice to say, click out of his threads. It's that simple.

It' the other way around, 9Ball.

KoolKat9Lives
06-19-2010, 06:31 AM
Good post Steve. :thumbup:

I'd always heard english references only side spin. The English used it, the Americans learned of it and subsequently coined the phrase.

When people say they put top or bottom english on the CB, which isn't uncommon, I just dismiss it as them not knowing.

Cuebuddy
06-19-2010, 06:38 AM
Good post Steve. :thumbup:

I'd always heard english references only side spin. The English used it, the Americans learned of it and subsequently coined the phrase.

When people say they put top or bottom english on the CB, which isn't uncommon, I just dismiss it as them not knowing.

Well said KoolKat9Lives. I look at it much the same as when someone is talking about "felt" on a pool table or using the dreaded fist bridge:eek:.
They just don't know.

CrossSideLarry
06-19-2010, 06:47 AM
Hi John,

I've always used "english" to describe left & right spin, anything on the vertical axis was not labelled as such. However, it's just the way I was taught to describe the cueball hit - but you are 100% right that once you leave center, all spin principals apply. So with that said, you are probably right.

Regarding tangent line or how the cueball leaves the object ball, of course high & low "spin/english" will have an effect on the direction of the cueball overall, but not at the point of contact, the alteration takes effect only after the cueball has enough time to bend. Note the 30 degree rule: if the cue ball is rolling forward when hitting the object ball, it will go apprx 30 degrees vs 90 degrees following the tangent line if it was hit with a stun stroke. So functionally, yes, "english/spin" does have an effect.

In addition, I believe that left & right spin can alter the path of the cueball also. Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change, but because that contact point would be different than a center ball hit to make the same shot. The side spin throws the object ball slightly so you can hit it fuller or thinner than with center ball. Plus the path of the cueball is slightly different because of swerve or whatever you want to call it.

I hope some of this makes sense...it's late for me.

Dave

Very well explained... I agree in total: Cross-Side-Larry

Masayoshi
06-19-2010, 06:53 AM
I've heard it used both ways, but from my experience, the vast majority of the "in crowd" doesn't use the word english when referring to top or bottom (although there are exceptions). I don't know if I have ever heard a good player say "draw english" or "bottom english", but everybody says "left english" and "right english". Every time I hear someone use the term "draw english" its like nails on a chalkboard to me.

One more point is that, when someone says "you need to use a little english" they are never referring to draw or follow.

Under the definition of english being just side spin, the second point the instructor makes is also correct.

Thunderball
06-19-2010, 06:59 AM
For me "english" has always been lefty righty. Toppy bottomy need not apply.

Just offering my understanding as I apply the word.

JamisonNeu
06-19-2010, 07:00 AM
I agree with the point he made about english not changing the tangent line. At the point of contact english can't change the tangent line. After that initial contact the english will change the tangent line that is how we all get around the table. But the first moment the only thing I know that will change the tangent line is pure force and that is because the ball that is still will not rebound a ball that is coming in at a high velocity they will both travel in the same direction. The OB will knock the cue ball of it's coarse but at some point ot OB will over power the 6 oz in it's way. At this point the direction the cue ball would come off (tangent line) would be changed...the OB could be disintegrated by the cue ball, at some point it could just turn into dust.

As far as top and bottom not being english this is not fact it is opinion it is like saying the sky is blue. It is a word to describe something in the game of pool our own vocab. In no way would I agree with the assessment that top and bottom spin are not spin and the in my vocab the word spin means english so I do not agree with this at all...again this is an argument no one can win we made this up...

3andstop
06-19-2010, 07:06 AM
I agree with the point he made about english not changing the tangent line. At the point of contact english can't change the tangent line. After that initial contact the english will change the tangent line that is how we all get around the table. But the first moment the only thing I know that will change the tangent line is pure force and that is because the ball that is still will not rebound a ball that is coming in at a high velocity they will both travel in the same direction. The OB will knock the cue ball of it's coarse but at some point ot OB will over power the 6 oz in it's way. At this point the direction the cue ball would come off (tangent line) would be changed...the OB could be disintegrated by the cue ball, at some point it could just turn into dust.

As far as top and bottom not being english this is not fact it is opinion it is like saying the sky is blue. It is a word to describe something in the game of pool our own vocab. In no way would I agree with the assessment that top and bottom spin are not spin and the in my vocab the word spin means english so I do not agree with this at all...again this is an argument no one can win we made this up...

Side spin only (on the ball's horizontal equator) will not effect the tangent line. Using side spin for steering the CB is only effective once the CB hits a rail and either opens or closes the natural angle it was on while approaching the rail.

In order to change the tangent line either follow or draw is needed.

Measle Ball
06-19-2010, 07:06 AM
I seem to recall reading in a book MANY years ago that in fact english is strictly "lefty righty", as Thunderball puts it. For the life of me, though, I can't remember where I read it- it was that long ago... >= 30 years I would guess.

pdcue
06-19-2010, 07:18 AM
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?

Gee, if only there were some place where the meaning(s) of words in
a language were kept for all to see.

Perhaps they could even be published in a book.

Gosh - I just noticed, it's 2010 - what if someone put all that information
online.

Dale(who is reasonably certain that in standard American English -
"english" refers to rotation around the vertical axis")

3kushn
06-19-2010, 07:19 AM
Top and bottom spin does not change the Path of the CB on its way to the object ball. After contact with the OB the CB must take the tangent for some distance and that distance is determined by the speed of the CB.

With Pure Side Spin (contact on the equator) the CB may take a non linear path to the OB depending again on speed. After contact the CB still and must take the tangent for some distance before the Path changes.

I've always defined the tangent as the line perpendicular to the line determined by the contact point through the center of the 2 balls. I've just learned but still don't understand how to visualize this but the tangent is determined by the line of the Release Point.

High Low Side may be clearer terms but I think the effects described above is the reason English means Side spin and High or Low is not considered English.

JoeyA
06-19-2010, 07:19 AM
I think that the pool term "English" should be abolished altogether but I know that will never happen. American pool players like to blame someone for their miscues. :D

We should start using the following terms:

FOLLOW

DRAW

LEFT SIDE SPIN

RIGHT SIDE SPIN

Don't forget to add in STUN and all of its variances.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 07:23 AM
[QUOTE=JB Cases;2472543]Oh it's you, the stalker.

Are we going to go through another week with you on something?
Hu's statement was correct. Agree with it, or don't, but how about leaving the shit stirring out of it.

Why are you here again? Sorry but I am not the one who replied to the topic with a personal comment about the person who started the topic.

Why don't you apply your logic to Mr. Robin Hood the Hustler Hustler?

Again, I will defer to Victor Stein and Paul Rubino and what they write on page 257 of the Billiard Encyclopedia. Unless of course you can point to anyone on this forum who has studied the history of billiards more thoroughly than those two.

I certainly won't be accepting the word of an unknown person on a forum message board unless he can cite some other corroborating source that we all know and who also trumps Rubino and Stein.

nathandumoulin
06-19-2010, 07:26 AM
I think that the pool term "English" should be abolished altogether but I know that will never happen. American pool players like to blame someone for their miscues. :D

We should start using the following terms:

FOLLOW

DRAW

LEFT SIDE SPIN

RIGHT SIDE SPIN

Don't forget to add in STUN and all of its variances.

Makes sense Joey.

I might add though, that I've actually always preferred the whole "inside/outside" terminology, as it puts the shot into a clear context. I mean, follow is always follow and draw is always draw, but left and right tend to mean different things depending on what direction the cut shot is.

Masayoshi
06-19-2010, 07:28 AM
Makes sense Joey.

I might add though, that I've actually always preferred the whole "inside/outside" terminology, as it puts the shot into a clear context. I mean, follow is always follow and draw is always draw, but left and right tend to mean different things depending on what direction the cut shot is.

What if you're straight in?

nathandumoulin
06-19-2010, 07:30 AM
What if you're straight in?

Then you'd have no reason whatsoever to put any side spin on the ball. If you're cheating the pocket to get an angle, then it's no longer straight :p

EDIT: There are cases where RIGHT/LEFT make more sense than INSIDE/OUTSIDE, but I'm just saying that I prefer the latter of the two in most cases.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 07:31 AM
I think that the pool term "English" should be abolished altogether but I know that will never happen. American pool players like to blame someone for their miscues. :D

We should start using the following terms:

FOLLOW

DRAW

LEFT SIDE SPIN

RIGHT SIDE SPIN

Don't forget to add in STUN and all of its variances.

I agree with you Joey. I think the term english being used for any spin is outdated.

I prefer high, low, left, right and combinations therof. That's what they are and is the simplest way to describe the hit on the ball. The actions produced are follow, draw, left spin, and right spin.

ThePoliteSniper
06-19-2010, 07:37 AM
Efren Reyes also invented martian english.

Thunderball
06-19-2010, 07:39 AM
What if you're straight in?

For me its follow or "top english". Leads to lots of racking,but damn its cool...like bunnies in the hole.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 07:56 AM
Top and bottom spin does not change the Path of the CB on its way to the object ball. After contact with the OB the CB must take the tangent for some distance and that distance is determined by the speed of the CB.

With Pure Side Spin (contact on the equator) the CB may take a non linear path to the OB depending again on speed. After contact the CB still and must take the tangent for some distance before the Path changes.

I've always defined the tangent as the line perpendicular to the line determined by the contact point through the center of the 2 balls. I've just learned but still don't understand how to visualize this but the tangent is determined by the line of the Release Point.

High Low Side may be clearer terms but I think the effects described above is the reason English means Side spin and High or Low is not considered English.

The instructor was not saying that the path to the object ball is changed. He was saying that the path away from the object ball does not change with 'english' and he was using english to mean only left or right.

In his video he says that he is dispelling the notion that English changes the path of the cueball. If a beginner, who is obviously the intended audience, has that idea then it's probably because they are thinking of "english" in the broad sense rather than the narrow sense.

To me english refers to any meaningful, lasting and visible spin, left, right, top, and bottom. If someone here can show me a video of themselves drawing the cueball 8-12 inches with an level cue and an unchalked tip then I will recant my position and agree that the term 'english' only applies to side spin. I might even recant it for 3-6inches.

Because it is my belief based on the reading I have done that it only became possible to execute major spin shots with tips that had lots of friction which chalk provided. Such shots did not become well known and practiced until Carr traveled about doing the shots for money and selling the chalk.

I can certainly see that a lot of you don't refer to it that way and so I can see where a BCA instructor would use the term to refer to only sidespin in his video.

However, I still contend that this is only telling half the tale. I find that a BCA instructor who makes a video should first explain what the tangent line is, THEN explain how the cue ball follows it and how the cue ball deviates from it. The video I watched is not at all how I would explain this concept to a beginner.

Said instructor has publicly chastised other people for teaching things that in his opinion might confuse beginners and yet in my opinion he goes out of his way to confuse beginners by introducing concepts in a half-assed manner.

I am sure though that this instructor did it with good intentions.

Another billiard scholar writes this in his online glossary of billiard terms:

English: term usually used to refer to sidespin applied to the cue ball, but can also be used to refer to any type of spin applied to the cue ball (e.g., with draw and follow shots). - Dr. Dave Alciatore

Masayoshi
06-19-2010, 08:02 AM
Then you'd have no reason whatsoever to put any side spin on the ball. If you're cheating the pocket to get an angle, then it's no longer straight :p

EDIT: There are cases where RIGHT/LEFT make more sense than INSIDE/OUTSIDE, but I'm just saying that I prefer the latter of the two in most cases.

I was thinking more along the lines of being straight in and drawing back to a rail with left or right. It comes up fairly often in 9 ball.

lfigueroa
06-19-2010, 08:02 AM
[QUOTE=Tramp Steamer;2472795]

Again, I will defer to Victor Stein and Paul Rubino and what they write on page 257 of the Billiard Encyclopedia. Unless of course you can point to anyone on this forum who has studied the history of billiards more thoroughly than those two.

I certainly won't be accepting the word of an unknown person on a forum message board unless he can cite some other corroborating source that we all know and who also trumps Rubino and Stein.

Well, much of the original legwork on this subject was done by William (Bill/Professor) Hendricks, a St. Louis local, who published "William Hendricks' Official Standard History of Pool" in 1974.

Anywhos, in it he credits the imprisoned French infantry captain, saying, "Apparently Mingaud deduced that a leather tip on the cue would give it the additional gripping power needed to achieve the kind of spin he wanted." This would all have been about 1807.

In the essay by Cees Sprangers (included in TBE), we learn, among other things, that Mingaud's first name was Francois. And, we also learn from his obituary that Mingaud got the idea for the leather tip while he was injured, went into a tavern and playfully struck a billiard ball with one of his crutches -- which had a small piece of elastic clay at its tip.

Lou Figueroa

Mike in MN
06-19-2010, 08:03 AM
I think you go reread the post he made. It starts out with telling me I am wrong to question an instructor's instruction and ask AZ's opinion. Then of course he calls into question my ability to discern the situation and quote properly.

Then he gets around to discussing the topic.

Does Hu NEED to be here in the thread I started? Could it survive and the topic, which is "what is english and does it affect the cue ball's path?", be discussed without his participation and comment's about me personally?

No he doesn't need to be here. He chose to post and chose to be antagonistic. As he said before, "that's the way I roll" in reference to his intention to be rude and harassing at ever increasing levels.

But as you can see I came back with a reference to "top english" as well as further references gleaned from the Billiard Encyclopedia.

Sorry I don't sit around and make up stories about my "playing days". I can name names and get within a month or so for all my stories. I don't make up vague references to busting hustlers and wax forth as if I have been the greatest undercover player the world has known. Hu does that. I don't normally care, when I start reading one of those stories I just skip it because I feel it's likely untrue and is boring anyway. I skip ahead to the moral just like I do with fairy tales.

If he wants to discuss things without getting personal then by all means. But if he wants to stalk me through the forum with personal attacks just as he did here in this thread then I will call a spade a spade.

My mom didn't teach me to not say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say. She taught me too stand up for myself. I won't be bullied or insulted by Hu without rebuttal. If that offends you then I'd suggest you stop reading when you see his name and mine in the same thread because you might see me going off if he decides to be obnoxious.

You can clearly see that I don't hold a grudge as I have posted in at least one other thread along with him and not said a word TO HIM or ABOUT HIM.

I'm not offended at all, John. It just looked like, from where I was sitting, that Hu was trying to needle you a little and get under your skin just for the sake of doing it. I thought his post was unnecessary at best.

mullyman
06-19-2010, 08:06 AM
Hi John,

In addition, I believe that left & right spin can alter the path of the cueball also. Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change, but because that contact point would be different than a center ball hit to make the same shot. The side spin throws the object ball slightly so you can hit it fuller or thinner than with center ball. Plus the path of the cueball is slightly different because of swerve or whatever you want to call it.

I hope some of this makes sense...it's late for me.

Dave

Actually no, the tangent line doesn't change one bit no matter where the two balls collide. The tanget line refers to the 90 degree line from the point of contact. If the contact point changes the cue ball still follows that particular tangent line from wherever it hit the object ball. If there's follow or draw on the cue ball it will still follow the tangent line. Where it decides to diverge from that line depends on how much or how little top or bottom is on it.
MULLY

elvicash
06-19-2010, 08:12 AM
Apparently I will have to re-post this every 6-months or so in order for the question to be general knowledge.

It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Swedish had a traditional dish of fermented fish called ," Ingglisch." It was eaten as a side dish to the entree.
For right- handed diners it was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed diners it was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch.

Swedish pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch. When Swedish pool players traveled to England for tournaments the English players heard this reference and, being as arrogant as they were, thought that the Swedes were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingglisch or bottom Ingglisch.

I think the matter is now settled.

Winner - Right Here

Dave Nelson
06-19-2010, 08:12 AM
I read somewhere that it is very difficult to impart overspin to the cue ball and that what little bit you do impart is rapidly dissapated by the friction between the cloth and the ball. This makes perfect sense to me.

Dave Nelson

lfigueroa
06-19-2010, 08:14 AM
Good post Steve. :thumbup:

I'd always heard english references only side spin. The English used it, the Americans learned of it and subsequently coined the phrase.

When people say they put top or bottom english on the CB, which isn't uncommon, I just dismiss it as them not knowing.

Just thinking out loud now: according to Hendricks' HoP, referring to 1820, he says, "This early in the century, Phelan said, Americans used the mace almost exclusively. In England the cue has clearly superseded the mace."

A bit further on he says of 1830, "Mingaud demonstrates the marvels of 'English' in London..." I don't know if the conclusion is drawn elsewhere, but there could be a connection in that all the crazy spin Mingaud was demonstrating came from the cue vs mace thing, started in England 10 years before.

Lou Figueroa

12squared
06-19-2010, 08:34 AM
Actually no, the tangent line doesn't change one bit no matter where the two balls collide. The tanget line refers to the 90 degree line from the point of contact. If the contact point changes the cue ball still follows that particular tangent line from wherever it hit the object ball. If there's follow or draw on the cue ball it will still follow the tangent line. Where it decides to diverge from that line depends on how much or how little top or bottom is on it.
MULLY

No argument here, I tried to say that in this way "Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change" (meaning the tangent line is always the tangent line), just pointing out that the contact point would be different using side spin vs center ball because of the slight throw effect you get on the object ball when using left/right spin and the actual path is changed because of the swerve, changing what would be the 30 degree rule path. So the actual contact point is different and you can alter the path of the cueball slightly, not change the physics. This is used frequently in 1-pocket when you have to navigate around pockets and traffic that would naturally come into play. I use it very often.

But you are right, the tangent line is the tangent line, that's just not what I was talking about. So functionally, using side spin of various degrees and speed, you can alter the path of the cue ball by hitting a different spot on the object ball to get the same direction. I'm not very good at symantics, I like to keep things simple and discuss results whenever possible. That's what I tried to do.

Thanks for pointing out my lack of ability to clearly communicating a thought :o.

Dave

elvicash
06-19-2010, 08:47 AM
The english is any spin vs left or right is a very old argument. I take the side that english is side spin.

On a more serious note we might need to get Dr. Dave and his wonder cam to answer the following question. Question : If we hit an object ball fairly thick and the CB has outside spin does the cue ball leave the OB on a 90 deg line from the point of contact and the throw only affects the line the OB takes moving away from the original point of collision.

This is what I think happens the CB has no option but to move off the OB at a true 90 deg tangent at least for a moment in time or more. Then the direction of the CB moves or is changed by the draw or follow english on the CB. However the line of the OB after the collision will be more than 90 deg from the collision point. The CB follows the tangent the OB line is manipulated. The angle between the exit collision CB tangent line and the OB path is going to be 90 deg with no side, > 90 deg with outside, it is very tough to throw the CB with inside but low spped and very thick angles this is possible as well.

After ther CB exits the collision there is another change in direction which is accomplished as an ellipitcal curve, as this curve occurs it takes power or spin rate out of the CB and when the spin is gone the CB will roll straight. The curve rate is directly porportioanl to the velocity of the linear motion vs the spin rate of the CB. Another key part of this is the humidity level in the environment, the drier the equipment the longer the spin can slide, the wetter or "DIRTIER" the cloth the quicker the spin takes effect. Dirty CB will also give up spin faster.

Side spin or english will primarily effect the path of the post collision CB when it hits a rail. Also side can add to ext velocitiy as a ball hits other balls, side spin can be converted to forward velcity as a ball hits either a ball or a rail.

vasilios
06-19-2010, 08:48 AM
when english is used will the ball be potted or pocketed.I think just spinning the nine in is just wrong.

bill

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 08:49 AM
I'm not offended at all, John. It just looked like, from where I was sitting, that Hu was trying to needle you a little and get under your skin just for the sake of doing it. I thought his post was unnecessary at best.

You are right. I misread your post as if you were chastising me. We all know THAT isn't allowed. ;-)

ShootingArts
06-19-2010, 08:51 AM
Seriously, why? Why must you always try to incite a riot with John? If you don't have anything nice to say, click out of his threads. It's that simple.

First, I posted because John's thread starter was genuinely funny. John is wrong about top and bottom being english. Then based on his wrong beliefs he slams somebody else for their posting of what seems to be several videos that are accepted terminology and beliefs. Secondly, somebody told me that John would never admit he was wrong no matter what. As you see in his many posts in this thread, he says he is wrong a few times about english but then reverses himself in the same post and says that even though he is wrong he is right and it should all be called english anyway. Confused enough with that double talk? John's posts are full of it. Now let's break down what I actually said and his reply to you when you asked me a question. To make things a little less confusing I use red to emphasis parts of John's message, blue for my text. Black inside the box is John's words, outside the box mine as is standard.

I said "John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge." John's spin on this:
I think you go reread the post he made. It starts out with telling me I am wrong to question an instructor's instruction and ask AZ's opinion. Well no that ain't what I said, not even close! :D :D :D

Then of course he calls into question my ability to discern the situation and quote properly. Why would I say anything like that? Could it be for things like the sterling example above of him changing what I said and spinning it beyond recognition? How about his deliberate misunderstanding of what the video producer said about english and a cue ball's path? Seems like clearly quoting improperly and a willful failure to discern the situation in the videos.

Then he gets around to discussing the topic.
Does Hu NEED to be here in the thread I started? Could it survive and the topic, which is "what is english and does it affect the cue ball's path?", be discussed without his participation and comment's about me personally? Actually the topic seemed to be let's make fun of this other person's video's because I'm(John) so much smarter than him. John's attack on the video poster still strikes me as ridiculous because even if John disagrees with the video maker's definition of english the maker had described how he uses the word before making the statement that John disagrees with purely to ridicule the maker as he and the maker both seem to agree that sidespin doesn't alter the path of the cue ball off of the object ball.

No he doesn't need to be here. He chose to post and chose to be antagonistic. As he said before, "that's the way I roll" in reference to his intention to be rude and harassing at ever increasing levels. Always funny when folks ask questions and answer them too. John fails to recall that I didn't reply to many of his attacks with attacks of my own. Here I pointed out John was wrong about his claim that english applied to top and bottom. A handful of knowledgeable posters have backed that up. John then moves on to apply his interpretation of the word "english" to the other person's video and declare the person posting the video not knowledgeable enough to post video and wrong about english. I can declare anybody wrong about anything if I first redefine the words they are using. According to no less an authority on all things great and small than John, the video's creator had already specified that "english" only applied to side so his later statements that John disagreed with are true for almost all practical purposes and are indeed one of the accepted "truths" of pool.

But as you can see I came back with a reference to "top english" as well as further references gleaned from the Billiard Encyclopedia.

Sorry I don't sit around and make up stories about my "playing days". I can name names and get within a month or so for all my stories. I don't make up vague references to busting hustlers and wax forth as if I have been the greatest undercover player the world has known. Hu does that. I don't normally care, when I start reading one of those stories I just skip it because I feel it's likely untrue and is boring anyway. I skip ahead to the moral just like I do with fairy tales.

If he wants to discuss things without getting personal then by all means. But if he wants to stalk me through the forum with personal attacks just as he did here in this thread then I will call a spade a spade.[/COLOR] Anyone interested in checking will find that John posts after me far more often than I post after John. Some of his vilest personal attacks have been deleted as he is well aware of. Note that the BS in this post isn't a personal attack in his mind. John has one set of rules for John, another for everyone else.

My mom didn't teach me to not say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say. She taught me too stand up for myself. I won't be bullied or insulted by Hu without rebuttal. If that offends you then I'd suggest you stop reading when you see his name and mine in the same thread because you might see me going off if he decides to be obnoxious.

You can clearly see that I don't hold a grudge as I have posted in at least one other thread along with him and not said a word TO HIM or ABOUT HIM.

Now if you read my entire original post again without John's added spin claiming I said things I never said after reading post one in this thread it stands on it's own. John slammed somebody for making several correct statements. That makes someone look pretty ignorant of pool knowledge and it isn't the person that posted the video. I am bolding entire thoughts for those that can't tell the difference between what I actually said and John's translations of what I said.

(my original post)
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu
(end original post)

John repeatedly demonstrates his lack of knowledge concerning the pool term "english" in this thread and he also demonstrates his problems with quoting without embellishing putting his interpretation on what is said. When I quote I do the same as most reasonable people, cut and paste longer quotes or I may type two or three words carefully verifying them for accuracy.

John's latest thing is making the claims that I am a poser everywhere. Anybody that reads my posts from the beginning, middle or latest and thinks I am a poser is welcome to think so. None of those that were around during the same time period have ever expressed any doubts. Like me they have been there, done that, and don't need a t-shirt to prove it. John cheerfully puts his own spin on what I have said and then assaults that. I haven't stooped to doing that to John, he does a fine enough job of making a monkey out of himself without me twisting things.

Hu

hang-the-9
06-19-2010, 09:02 AM
What is at core of your post is really "does English refer to all off-center hits?". I don't think so. While in reality the only difference between topsin and draw is where you hit the ball, the actual term "English" I have only seen used to talk about left and right spin applied to the cue ball.

The tricky part is when you hit something like high right. Is that called Top Right English? Or Follow Right English? Just Top Right? Right Follow? eh?

Tramp Steamer
06-19-2010, 09:03 AM
Hu is a hunnert percent right on this folks. JB is an inciteful, disrespectful, and duplicitous, member of this forum. The case in point is right before you. Why in the world should a thread so simple and unassuming as describing spin on a cue ball be turned into a big pissing match is beyond me, unless it was by design. Which I think it was.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 09:05 AM
The english is any spin vs left or right is a very old argument. I take the side that english is side spin.

On a more serious note we might need to get Dr. Dave and his wonder cam to answer the following question. Question : If we hit an object ball fairly thick and the CB has outside spin does the cue ball leave the OB on a 90 deg line from the point of contact and the throw only affects the line the OB takes moving away from the original point of collision.

This is what I think happens the CB has no option but to move off the OB at a true 90 deg tangent at least for a moment in time or more. Then the direction of the CB moves or is changed by the draw or follow english on the CB. However the line of the OB after the collision will be more than 90 deg from the collision point. The CB follows the tangent the OB line is manipulated. The angle between the exit collision CB tangent line and the OB path is going to be 90 deg with no side, > 90 deg with outside, it is very tough to throw the CB with inside but low spped and very thick angles this is possible as well.

After ther CB exits the collision there is another change in direction which is accomplished as an ellipitcal curve, as this curve occurs it takes power or spin rate out of the CB and when the spin is gone the CB will roll straight. The curve rate is directly porportioanl to the velocity of the linear motion vs the spin rate of the CB. Another key part of this is the humidity level in the environment, the drier the equipment the longer the spin can slide, the wetter or "DIRTIER" the cloth the quicker the spin takes effect. Dirty CB will also give up spin faster.

Side spin or english will primarily effect the path of the post collision CB when it hits a rail. Also side can add to ext velocitiy as a ball hits other balls, side spin can be converted to forward velcity as a ball hits either a ball or a rail.

I believe that Dave has already done several videos along this topic. I am sure he will be here shortly to point us to the relevant videos.

The initial collision between the cueball and the object ball ALWAYS results in exactly the same initial cue ball direction. What chafed me about the instruction I saw on YouTube was that the implication is that this direction continues indefinitely. But in fact that is not true as we all know that even though the initial direction is always the same the practical direction off the tangent line changes based on speed and spin.

So my beef is that the information is incomplete at best and confusing to the target audience of beginners.

I propose that all instructors stop using 'english' and simply refer to off center hits as applying spin. Top Spin, Reverse Spin, Left Spin, Right Spin. To get these spins you hit the ball high, low, left or right.

Let's erase the outdated word with the proper one and end the confusion. Then the next round of lessons on youtube can be started with modern terms and the actual lesson then inclusive of the four basic spins and their effects on the cue ball post collision.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 09:11 AM
Hu is a hunnert percent right on this folks. JB is an inciteful, disrespectful, and duplicitous, member of this forum. The case in point is right before you. Why in the world should a thread so simple and unassuming as describing spin on a cue ball be turned into a big pissing match is beyond me, unless it was by design. Which I think it was.

Um, can you tell me which poster made a personal insult first?

First I wasn't slamming anyone. I have a differing opinion than a person who posted some instructional videos on YouTube. I brought that opinion here without linking to that person's videos and without naming them.

I asked for the opinions of the board and we are having a pretty good conversation I think - once the personal slurs of Hu and your off-topic insults are subtracted. It's fair to say that had Hu not insulted me then I would not have responded in kind.

So save it. Hu tried to toss in a little insult and it backfired on him.

He's the kind of troll bully that I won't lay down for.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 09:41 AM
First, I posted because John's thread starter was genuinely funny. John is wrong about top and bottom being english.

According to you. However according to Victor Stein and Paul Rubino and Dr. Dave Alciatore I am right.

Who to believe? Anonymous troll who claims to have been the nemesis of hustlers everywhere or three scholars who have studied the subject in detail?

Then based on his wrong beliefs he slams somebody else for their posting of what seems to be several videos that are accepted terminology and beliefs. Secondly, somebody told me that John would never admit he was wrong no matter what. As you see in his many posts in this thread, he says he is wrong a few times about english but then reverses himself in the same post and says that even though he is wrong he is right and it should all be called english anyway.

No, I said I have always though of it one way and I disagree with the instructor's content and asked for the opinions of the board.

I did not say I am wrong. I said I might be wrong and if so then it wouldn't be the first time. Then I went on to cite my findings based on further research and concluded "for the moment" (that's a quote, me quoting myself from the earlier post you are referencing) that I am right.

Confused enough with that double talk? John's posts are full of it. Now let's break down what I actually said and his reply to you when you asked me a question. To make things a little less confusing I use red to emphasis parts of John's message, blue for my text. Black inside the box is John's words, outside the box mine as is standard.

Thanks, you sure are putting in a lot of work here. Got something to prove?

Now if you read my entire original post again without John's added spin claiming I said things I never said after reading post one in this thread it stands on it's own. John slammed somebody for making several correct statements.

Please post the part YOU construe as slamming? And in fact the statements you consider to be correct are not entirely correct. Cameron Smith said in the very first answer that he has always heard it both ways. Rubino/Stein and Dr. Dave all disagree with you.

That makes someone look pretty ignorant of pool knowledge and it isn't the person that posted the video. I am bolding entire thoughts for those that can't tell the difference between what I actually said and John's translations of what I said.

So now other people can't read either?

(my original post)
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Um, I already refuted this with links. Also other people have said that they have heard top and bottom referred to as top english and bottom english. It doesn't matter that the English people use the proper term "side" for SIDE SPIN. It only matters how WE use the term "english" and again, SOME people think it's only referring to side spin while others think it refers to all spin.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu(end original post)

Um, this is WHY I brought the question to this forum where most of the people do in fact know the term.

And for that matter I could have made up the story about the YouTube pool instructor as a backdrop to frame the question of what is "english" and how does it affect the cue ball's path after contact. Notice there are no names or links in my post. Kind of like your proclivity to tell us stories about the times in the bar when you saved the day by hustling the hustler.

John repeatedly demonstrates his lack of knowledge concerning the pool term "english" in this thread and he also demonstrates his problems with quoting without embellishing putting his interpretation on what is said. When I quote I do the same as most reasonable people, cut and paste longer quotes or I may type two or three words carefully verifying them for accuracy.

Yes, which is why I augment my opinon with citations. Where are yours?

John's latest thing is making the claims that I am a poser everywhere. Anybody that reads my posts from the beginning, middle or latest and thinks I am a poser is welcome to think so.

Ok, I and several others think so after reading your posts.

None of those that were around during the same time period have ever expressed any doubts.

Can anyone on this board verify that Hu every snapped off anyone above a B player for anything more than lunch money?

Like me they have been there, done that, and don't need a t-shirt to prove it. John cheerfully puts his own spin on what I have said and then assaults that. I haven't stooped to doing that to John, he does a fine enough job of making a monkey out of himself without me twisting things.

Hu

You can't get the t-shirt because you weren't there and unlike Woodstock you can't buy a t-shirt on Ebay either to prove you were there. Name some names who can back up anything you have ever said about your glory days. Come on man, you were such a great player able to snap off road players at will so someone must have seen you in action. Even the biggest jerkoffs in the pool room got respect if they could play some. So SOMEONE must know you. You see this whole "like me" schtick is just another way to try and identify with a group you don't belong to.

If ANYONE on this board emails me a story about Hu where he won more than \$500 from an A player or better that can be verified then I will make a LOUD PUBLIC APOLOGY on this forum to Hu. Prior to that happening I will consider Hu's stories to be ambiguous personal fiction.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 10:02 AM
Hu says:

Anyone interested in checking will find that John posts after me far more often than I post after John. Some of his vilest personal attacks have been deleted as he is well aware of. Note that the BS in this post isn't a personal attack in his mind. John has one set of rules for John, another for everyone else.

You really do live in a fantasy world don't you?

First the only personal issues between us started when YOU called me a jackass in my own thread after YOU took a post where I was discussing your statement about the topic personally.

I haven't been vile to you yet. My thread was locked because it had become a cesspool and YOU were the primary reason it got that way.

As for calling you out on your BS. That's exactly what I am doing. YOU could have spoken to the point of "english" and tangents without being personal - but you CHOSE to go there.

So Mr. "this is how I roll" - I can roll that way too.

But you completely missed the point. The point is that I can post behind you in a thread and even respond to something you said that is on topic and not personally attack you.

Check the calcutta thread for proof of that. I dont hold grudges. You do apparently as your new vocation seems to be tossing in jabs and falsehoods where you can.

Congratulations on seeing your provocation result in another ten off-topic posts. As a pool player you were probably nothing special but as a junior troll you have potential.

Just an observation based on your posting history.

ShootingArts
06-19-2010, 10:50 AM
According to you. However according to Victor Stein and Paul Rubino and Dr. Dave Alciatore I am right.

Who to believe? Anonymous troll who claims to have been the nemesis of hustlers everywhere or three scholars who have studied the subject in detail?

No, I said I have always though of it one way and I disagree with the instructor's content and asked for the opinions of the board.

I did not say I am wrong. I said I might be wrong and if so then it wouldn't be the first time. Then I went on to cite my findings based on further research and concluded "for the moment" (that's a quote, me quoting myself from the earlier post you are referencing) that I am right.

Thanks, you sure are putting in a lot of work here. Got something to prove?

Please post the part YOU construe as slamming? And in fact the statements you consider to be correct are not entirely correct. Cameron Smith said in the very first answer that he has always heard it both ways. Rubino/Stein and Dr. Dave all disagree with you.

So now other people can't read either?

Um, I already refuted this with links. Also other people have said that they have heard top and bottom referred to as top english and bottom english. It doesn't matter that the English people use the proper term "side" for SIDE SPIN. It only matters how WE use the term "english" and again, SOME people think it's only referring to side spin while others think it refers to all spin.

Um, this is WHY I brought the question to this forum where most of the people do in fact know the term.

And for that matter I could have made up the story about the YouTube pool instructor as a backdrop to frame the question of what is "english" and how does it affect the cue ball's path after contact. Notice there are no names or links in my post. Kind of like your proclivity to tell us stories about the times in the bar when you saved the day by hustling the hustler.

Yes, which is why I augment my opinon with citations. Where are yours?

Ok, I and several others think so after reading your posts.

Can anyone on this board verify that Hu every snapped off anyone above a B player for anything more than lunch money?

You can't get the t-shirt because you weren't there and unlike Woodstock you can't buy a t-shirt on Ebay either to prove you were there. Name some names who can back up anything you have ever said about your glory days. Come on man, you were such a great player able to snap off road players at will so someone must have seen you in action. Even the biggest jerkoffs in the pool room got respect if they could play some. So SOMEONE must know you. You see this whole "like me" schtick is just another way to try and identify with a group you don't belong to.

If ANYONE on this board emails me a story about Hu where he won more than \$500 from an A player or better that can be verified then I will make a LOUD PUBLIC APOLOGY on this forum to Hu. Prior to that happening I will consider Hu's stories to be ambiguous personal fiction.

John,

No alphabet soup when I gambled. I played whoever came through the door for what they wanted to play for. I did the same when I traveled. Good enough for me. No idea where you keep coming up with the Robin Hood shee-yit, I can think of one instance I posted about where a friend asked me to get his money back and I did. Even that was in the context of a longer story, a minor part of it. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. A lot of the things you have said about me make little sense including some of your accusations concerning what I have said about you. Seems you have pissing contests with so many people you can't keep your story straight.

I reposted my original post and bolded complete thoughts because many people read your spin in later posts in all threads and don't go back and check what was really said. Maybe your claims about the videos were just lies, you do seem to have a willingness to bend the truth. Wholesale fabrication wouldn't be out of the question. However I doubt you are capable of enough original thought to do that. You spend a lot of time bragging about stealing other people's original ideas. You are also proud that you use a sweat shop to produce the cases with your name on them. I wonder how many people have bought a case from you that your total input was to sketch a leather design or copy bits and pieces of other people's designs and call them yours then your people making less than \$300 a month each do the actual work. I'm guessing at their pay, according to a recent article Honda pays an average of \$280 a month to it's workers in their Chinese factory. Feel free to correct me if my guess is low, we both know you aren't paying them but a small fraction of what you would have to pay US workers but you surely charge US prices for the work they turn out! If you really want to get personal you have put a lot more of your business on the forum than I have.

It's true that the people I played with are dead and gone or I have long ago lost contact with them. I never paid much attention to names because most people gambling weren't using their own anyway. I never used more than Hu myself. Other people called me by a bunch of other nicknames, I didn't care as long as it wasn't pool related. I met Keith McCready in Greenway and tried to get together for a match-up that didn't happen, playing even. I wouldn't remember his name had the Color of Money not came out afterwards and I recognized him in it. I think he was using his own name in Greenway but I still wouldn't have remembered it six months later. I'd never connect the Keith of today with the guy I met in Greenway either without the bridge of COM connecting the two.

Unlike the people that woof for days and play for a few minutes that you consider the real subculture of pool, the idea for most of us was to get the money and get out without making waves. There were a few showboats like Keith and Fats but there were also a lot of people quietly making a good living without being known. I didn't pass on big bets when they came to me but I didn't look for them, the last thing I wanted was a reputation as a pool player.

Hu

ShootingArts
06-19-2010, 11:03 AM
Hu says:

You really do live in a fantasy world don't you?

First the only personal issues between us started when YOU called me a jackass in my own thread after YOU took a post where I was discussing your statement about the topic personally.

I haven't been vile to you yet. My thread was locked because it had become a cesspool and YOU were the primary reason it got that way.

As for calling you out on your BS. That's exactly what I am doing. YOU could have spoken to the point of "english" and tangents without being personal - but you CHOSE to go there.

So Mr. "this is how I roll" - I can roll that way too.

But you completely missed the point. The point is that I can post behind you in a thread and even respond to something you said that is on topic and not personally attack you.

Check the calcutta thread for proof of that. I dont hold grudges. You do apparently as your new vocation seems to be tossing in jabs and falsehoods where you can.

Congratulations on seeing your provocation result in another ten off-topic posts. As a pool player you were probably nothing special but as a junior troll you have potential.

Just an observation based on your posting history.

John,

As usual you twist things in your own bent world. What I actually said was, "You are doing your best to derail the thread acting like a jackass and being quick to take every post the wrong way." That is by no means saying you were a jackass, only behaving like one at the moment.

On the other hand here is a brief excerpt of what you said about me: "YOU repsonded like an ASSHOLE and then when I asked you to please keep the thread on track you further responded like a BIGGER ASSHOLE and threatened to continue being an asshole as much as you wanted to be. So feel free to continue being a huge gaping asshole. Because to me that is all you are. You are a major asshat"

How you gonna spin this Johnny Boy?

Hopefully the mod's will forgive these brief excerpts to prove to John that he can't rewrite history, I have the original version!

Hu

LeeLenker
06-19-2010, 11:07 AM
I agree with you Joey. I think the term english being used for any spin is outdated.

I prefer high, low, left, right and combinations therof. That's what they are and is the simplest way to describe the hit on the ball. The actions produced are follow, draw, left spin, and right spin.

Around these parts (central Pa) we talk about pool so much that we have simplifide it to natural, low, inside, outside. I have also noticed some people using the words "top spin". It is impossible to impart top spin on the cue ball so natural or rolling (dare i say) english should be how it is described.

3kushn
06-19-2010, 11:55 AM
The instructor was not saying that the path to the object ball is changed. He was saying that the path away from the object ball does not change with 'english' and he was using english to mean only left or right.

In his video he says that he is dispelling the notion that English changes the path of the cueball. If a beginner, who is obviously the intended audience, has that idea then it's probably because they are thinking of "english" in the broad sense rather than the narrow sense.

To me english refers to any meaningful, lasting and visible spin, left, right, top, and bottom. If someone here can show me a video of themselves drawing the cueball 8-12 inches with an level cue and an unchalked tip then I will recant my position and agree that the term 'english' only applies to side spin. I might even recant it for 3-6inches.

Because it is my belief based on the reading I have done that it only became possible to execute major spin shots with tips that had lots of friction which chalk provided. Such shots did not become well known and practiced until Carr traveled about doing the shots for money and selling the chalk.

I can certainly see that a lot of you don't refer to it that way and so I can see where a BCA instructor would use the term to refer to only sidespin in his video.

However, I still contend that this is only telling half the tale. I find that a BCA instructor who makes a video should first explain what the tangent line is, THEN explain how the cue ball follows it and how the cue ball deviates from it. The video I watched is not at all how I would explain this concept to a beginner.

Said instructor has publicly chastised other people for teaching things that in his opinion might confuse beginners and yet in my opinion he goes out of his way to confuse beginners by introducing concepts in a half-assed manner.

I am sure though that this instructor did it with good intentions.

Another billiard scholar writes this in his online glossary of billiard terms:

English: term usually used to refer to sidespin applied to the cue ball, but can also be used to refer to any type of spin applied to the cue ball (e.g., with draw and follow shots). - Dr. Dave Alciatore
JB I guess I'm not clear what your trying to say. Sorry. My point is the tangent line is determined by the contact point or as some say the release point and the CB MUST take that line. Spin Draw Follow only take effect after the CB has traveled some distance along the tangent. I would also agree that pure side spin does not alter the Path to the OB or for a short time after it hit an OB. The path changes either by friction from the cloth on a slow moving ball as it moves from skid to roll or and more easily seen if the CB is hit below center with spin. But all this is just getting the ball the where it contacts the OB. At that point the Tangent is established and the CB takes that line.

Siz
06-19-2010, 12:09 PM
Just thinking out loud now: according to Hendricks' HoP, referring to 1820, he says, "This early in the century, Phelan said, Americans used the mace almost exclusively. In England the cue has clearly superseded the mace."

A bit further on he says of 1830, "Mingaud demonstrates the marvels of 'English' in London..." I don't know if the conclusion is drawn elsewhere, but there could be a connection in that all the crazy spin Mingaud was demonstrating came from the cue vs mace thing, started in England 10 years before.

Lou Figueroa

Interesting stuff.

There are also some gems in this article (http://www.eaba.co.uk/articles/professionalChampionship/professionalChampionship1800-1899.html). See in particular the first section, on Jack Carr, who has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Interesting to see that the use of chalk (or plaster from the walls) pre-dates the introduction of the leather tip.

Elsewhere on the same site, the great billiard writer Riso Levi is quoted on the usage of the term 'English'. It is notable that he talks of 'English' as being equivalent to 'side' (as distinct from top or bottom spin). The quote is not dated, but I believe that Levi was writing about 100 years ago:

'American billiard players never speak of side on a ball in any other way than as "right English" or "left English," as the case may be. How the term "English" for "side" originated I have never been able to discover. I have discussed the question with more than one American player, and also with one writer on the American game, without being able to elicit the required information. It may be that many years ago, when the effect of side on a ball first became well known, Englishmen who visited the States were in the habit of putting on "side" apart from billiards, as in the old days many Americans did when on a visit to Great Britain. If this is so, English players might have retaliated by coining the terms "right American" and "left American," but, fortunately, they did not do so.'

Rak9up
06-19-2010, 12:46 PM
I think the "English" have the best term "screw" instead of english or side spin.

I know when I'm playing on a bed getting the felt down I "screw" my balls into a tight pocket.

This just seems to flow a little better than side spin or english.

So I vote for the english term "screw"

So there John, if you don't like that go "side spin" yourself.

Cause you know I'm right..bloody well right.. bloody well right you know

randyg
06-19-2010, 02:22 PM
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?

John, I would be interested in viewing that video. What is the address????...randyg

14-1StraightMan
06-19-2010, 02:42 PM
Growing up in New York as a young teenager in the 60's. Where 14.1 was so heavily played. My older brother would take me to pool rooms with him.
I would only hear the term "English" when it pertained to hitting the cue ball on the Right & Left sides (which includes high & low right & left).
High was always "Follow" and Low was always "Draw".
I still think of English as the right & left side only.

Underclocked
06-19-2010, 02:46 PM
It's really called "duckbutter" or "muckinpucky" or sometimes even "dewey".

06-19-2010, 03:37 PM
John,
On the first issue you're just talking semantics. I think for most people "english" is a term commonly used ONLY to refer to side spin. Personally I think it is just much easier to say top, bottom, and side. That aside there is no issue if he (and I) chose to define "english" as side spin only then so be it.

As to the second issue. If the balls are dirty, side spin can have a very big effect on the path the object ball takes. On the other hand if the balls are immaculate I'd say it has very little if any effect on the direction of the object ball. Also effecting this is the angle at which the cue ball is striking the object ball. The thinner the hit the less effect side spin has on the object ball's trajectory.
JMHO

Mr. Wilson
06-19-2010, 04:09 PM
Who is going to be the first to get banned?

Keep it up.....

Bob Jewett
06-19-2010, 04:13 PM
... So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?
Yes, I agree with both of the instructor's points.

Many English speakers use "english" to refer only to side spin. Some use it to refer to any spin. I think the former is the clearer and more useful way to use the term. Also, my personal preference is to use lower-case "e" when talking about the billiard term, although my editor does not agree.

There are several compound terms that are in common use which tend to reinforce the "side only" use, such as "reverse english," "running english," "inside english," "outside english," etc. Those do not primarily refer to draw or follow; they refer to what kind of side spin is on the cue ball.

It is pointless to argue whether one or the other has historical precedent. Usage in the US (which is not the entire English-speaking world) varies. In Byrne's "New Standard Book of Pool and Billiards," he states, "In this book 'English' means side spin and side spin only." That statement serves two purposes. It clarifies how he is using the word and it implicitly acknowledges that others may use the term in other ways.

If the historical precedent is interesting, the place to start is Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards," which gives the definitions and traces the historical usage of over 2000 cue-sport-related terms, including "English" (his preferred capitalization). The first use he has found is in the New York Times in 1873. Anyone who thinks he might want to become a student of the game should get a copy of this book.

But most of the time when I write about spin on the cue ball, I try to avoid the word "english." I know that there are people who use it differently than I do, and if I want to communicate with them -- instead of writing them off as pitiful, ignorant, worthless dregs, beneath contempt and beyond any hope of salvation -- I know that I need to use words in a way that will mean something to everyone. So, I tend to use the words "side spin" a lot.

Scott Lee
06-19-2010, 05:48 PM
I'm in this camp as well. Although I have heard MANY older players (especially in the South) use the term "english" referring to any spin on the CB (including my very good friend Willie Jopling), I have always preferred, as an instructor, to refer to 'english' as sidespin only...if only to differentiate how the CB responds (primarily off of a cushion). Students have a hard enough time understanding spins, and I want to try to make it easier for them. Thus...top and bottom are follow or draw, unless sidespin is used as well. Additionally I prefer to use the terms right and left, as opposed to 'inside' or 'outside' spin (which are easily misunderstood by many players), to refer to sidespin or english. jmo

The tangent line concept, and how top and bottom spin affect it, are clearly demonstrated in our video, "Play Better Pool", Vol. 1.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The english is any spin vs left or right is a very old argument. I take the side that english is side spin.

JoeyA
06-19-2010, 06:02 PM
Makes sense Joey.

I might add though, that I've actually always preferred the whole "inside/outside" terminology, as it puts the shot into a clear context. I mean, follow is always follow and draw is always draw, but left and right tend to mean different things depending on what direction the cut shot is.

I hear you Nathan but I've had more than enough people try to convince me that outside English was inside English and inside English was outside English than I care to remember. It seems a lot easier to explain "hit the cue ball on the left side" than it is to explain "outside" or "inside". Different strokes for different folks I guess. That's what makes the world go 'round.

JB Cases
06-19-2010, 07:06 PM
John,

No alphabet soup when I gambled. I played whoever came through the door for what they wanted to play for. I did the same when I traveled. Good enough for me. No idea where you keep coming up with the Robin Hood shee-yit, I can think of one instance I posted about where a friend asked me to get his money back and I did. Even that was in the context of a longer story, a minor part of it. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. A lot of the things you have said about me make little sense including some of your accusations concerning what I have said about you. Seems you have pissing contests with so many people you can't keep your story straight.

Conveniently no one is "alive" who can verify that you ever played.

I reposted my original post and bolded complete thoughts because many people read your spin in later posts in all threads and don't go back and check what was really said. Maybe your claims about the videos were just lies, you do seem to have a willingness to bend the truth. Wholesale fabrication wouldn't be out of the question.[/QUOTE]

You know a lot about fabricating stories. Mine contain specifics that can be verified. Many people who can back up my stories are ALIVE and members of this forum.

However I doubt you are capable of enough original thought to do that. You spend a lot of time bragging about stealing other people's original ideas.

I do? Proof? What were you saying about spin and fabrication? Cite some proof.

You are also proud that you use a sweat shop to produce the cases with your name on them.

Sweat shop? Proof? Kinda going out on a limb here aren't you? Are you feeling a little trapped? Want to be diversionary? Let's see now if I wrap myself in the flag and attack China then people won't notice that I can't back up anything I say. Is that your line of reasoning?

I wonder how many people have bought a case from you that your total input was to sketch a leather design or copy bits and pieces of other people's designs and call them yours then your people making less than \$300 a month each do the actual work. I'm guessing at their pay, according to a recent article Honda pays an average of \$280 a month to it's workers in their Chinese factory.

You wonder a lot. You also wander a lot. My people make \$5 a month and I pay them in rice and fish heads. They are chained to their machines and only get one hour of sunshine a month. But we aren't talking about me here, we are talking about you. Isn't anyone alive who can verify that Hu ever ran a rack at least?

Feel free to correct me if my guess is low, we both know you aren't paying them but a small fraction of what you would have to pay US workers but you surely charge US prices for the work they turn out! If you really want to get personal you have put a lot more of your business on the forum than I have.

Um, yeah, I put my TRUE SELF on this forum. Not made up fantasies of playing that are unverifiable. Let me give you a little geography and economics lesson though - I am not in the USA, the cost of living is much lower here so wages are also lower. This reminds me that you have also posted all sort of stories about your business prowess. Seems like such a great and successful businessman such as yourself would recognize these two basic points.

It's true that the people I played with are dead and gone or I have long ago lost contact with them. I never paid much attention to names because most people gambling weren't using their own anyway.

Very convenient.

I never used more than Hu myself. Other people called me by a bunch of other nicknames, I didn't care as long as it wasn't pool related. I met Keith McCready in Greenway and tried to get together for a match-up that didn't happen, playing even.

Sure sure, that's a good name to pull out the hat. Let's see you claim that you met Ketih "the world gets the seven" McReady and TRIED to match up even and it didn't happen and this is supposed to say what?

First of all if you Keith had tangled then he wouldd have busted you so bad you would have needed to borrow back the H just have half a name.

Secondly this is just the kind of ambigous lie that you tell. You implication is that you were good enough to go toe to toe with Keith even and that he didn't want to play you because of how "good" you say you were.

I wouldn't remember his name had the Color of Money not came out afterwards and I recognized him in it. I think he was using his own name in Greenway but I still wouldn't have remembered it six months later. I'd never connect the Keith of today with the guy I met in Greenway either without the bridge of COM connecting the two.

For a guy who prides himself on being the moral compass of this forum and for being able to keep the story straight your memory is awfully fuzzy concerning your claimed pool playing exploits.

Unlike the people that woof for days and play for a few minutes that you consider the real subculture of pool, the idea for most of us was to get the money and get out without making waves. There were a few showboats like Keith and Fats but there were also a lot of people quietly making a good living without being known. I didn't pass on big bets when they came to me but I didn't look for them, the last thing I wanted was a reputation as a pool player.

Hu

Yep you were one of the great unknowns, the greatest apparently as no one alive can verify your claims.

The best that never was apparently.

poolpro
06-19-2010, 07:19 PM
I agree that the term english should only be correctly used when meaning left and right spin.

Of course follow and draw is also spin (topspin and backspin).

Whenever I am discussing any topic involving spinning the cueball, I ALWAYS clarify my specific usage of the terms "english" "follow" and "draw". I also make it very clear that "english" only applies to sidespin.

It seems some have touched upon some of the reasons, but I would like to clarify a bit.

The most important reason why I feel that it is important to keep "english" separate from "follow" and "draw" is because they are really 2 different animals in a practical sense in application. If you line up a shot with centerbal ( no spin), then adjust to add follow or draw, you will NOT need to adjust your aim. This is NOT true of any side spin! If you confine yourself to the vertical axis of the cueball the cueball will track straight.

When you begin hitting the cueball to the left and right of center on the horizontal axis, you introduce variables THAT ARE NOT PRESENT when using topspin and backspin! If you use a good deal of right english for example, 1 the cueball will deflect ( or squirt) to the left, 2 then because the cuestick is not perfectly level, the cuebal will swerve back to the right( even if just slightly), 3 when the cueball hits the object ball, the OB will be thrown off the line that the contact point suggests. None of these happen when using follow or draw exclusively.

Can you see why these really are 2 completely different animals in practical application as it applies to pool? It is very important to distinguish one from the other when having a discussion about spinning the cueball. I make this distinction VERY clear whenever discussing or introducing someone to the concepts of spinning the cueball.

Also, english WILL NOT change the path the cueball will take off of an object ball ASSUMING THE SAME CONTACT POINT IS STRUCK. If you use english to throw a ball into a pocket ( as opposed to cutting it in) than you are hitting the object ball in a different spot ( for example, a thicker hit and cheating the pocket) and will get a changed cueball path. This altered path is due to hitting a different contact point and is not a result of the spinning cueball.

In a nutshell, follow and draw will change the path of the cueball off of an object ball- english will change the cueball path off of a rail. Another reason why they deserve two distinct catagories in discussing concepts of a spinning cueball. Of course english can be combined with follow and draw.

Jw

manwon
06-19-2010, 10:11 PM
You are right. I misread your post as if you were chastising me. We all know THAT isn't allowed. ;-)

Now that is the John we all know and love, always humble!!!!!:eek:

Siz
06-19-2010, 11:17 PM
If the historical precedent is interesting, the place to start is Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards," which gives the definitions and traces the historical usage of over 2000 cue-sport-related terms, including "English" (his preferred capitalization). The first use he has found is in the New York Times in 1873. Anyone who thinks he might want to become a student of the game should get a copy of this book.

1869 Mark Twain: "You would infallibly put the ‘English’ on the wrong side of the ball." (Innocents Abroad)

9bizzle
06-20-2010, 01:36 AM
I just thumbed through a few books and Phil Capelle, Robert Byrne, Ray Martin as well as the BCA rulebook all define english as sidespin only. I would say these are pretty well respected authorities in the modern age of pool and it is what I base my opinion on. But, it seems there are clearly two sides in this issue, and people can call it what they want, so I think everyone must be as clear as possible when describing the spins we put on a cueball, especially when we are teaching those new to the game. Also, follow, top, or high, is not "spin". If you watch Dr. Dave's video, you'll see that the top "spin" imparted to a cueball is lost almost immediately after it leaves the cue tip.

jridpath
06-20-2010, 06:21 AM
It is pointless to argue whether one or the other has historical precedent. Usage in the US (which is not the entire English-speaking world) varies. In Byrne's "New Standard Book of Pool and Billiards," he states, "In this book 'English' means side spin and side spin only." That statement serves two purposes. It clarifies how he is using the word and it implicitly acknowledges that others may use the term in other ways.

I was going to make the same point. My copy of Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards is an older copy, copyright 1987, and he made the same declaration back then.

The usage of any word or term only means something when there is an accepted definition for it. Historical precedent is interesting research, but means little when using any term in a modern context. So, it boils down to what is the current most widely accepted definition of the term English (when used in reference to pool and billiards). Does it mean any spin, or does it mean spin only about the vertical axis? I believe most modern pool literature uses the later.

It might even be said that due to the popularity of Robert Byrne's book and his usage of the term, he helped solidify the definition in modern culture.

Bambu
06-20-2010, 07:03 AM
On the other side of the pond the English even have the endearing term "deep screw" to refer to very low backspin.

Didn't we have a thread about a year or so ago about an APA3 who got BCA certification as an instructor?

Now I am the last person who thinks that a person has to be able to DO what he is teaching in order to instruct and we certainly have had THAT discussion many times here. I think that it might be wise if the BCA made it a requirement that regular instructors not be allowed to do videos teaching pool. Perhaps it's better if these inexperienced teachers would learn their craft a little better and get an advanced certification before making themselves into YouTube stars. My thinking here is that they don't necessarily know HOW to teach yet and probably should not be trying to put out content to be consumed by beginners who might actually be harmed by the bite chunks of concepts when they really need personal instruction.

I am certain that this particular instructor was well meaning but I find his content to be inaccurate or if not entirely inaccurate then not inclusive or explanatory enough for the intended audience.

Thus the reason for the moratorium on allowing rookie instructors to make videos.

Or not. It's a new world and anyone with a camera can be a star without having to answer to anyone else for the content they put up. (within some parameters of course.)

Man, that seems pretty harsh. Anyone in the world can post a pool video, but not an instructor? And what did the guy do wrong, aside from having a different definition of english from yours? Sanction a guy who loves the game enough to take the instructors course, just because you dont agree with his terminology? I dont get that. You even said his concepts were correct.

I'm looking in The New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards, by Mike Shamos. Under English, the first thing it says is "Spin or twist applied to the cue ball by striking it off center." Yadda yadda.... the Brits refer to this as side. Last line: In American usage, "English" encompasses draw and follow as well as side.

So the instructor is not wrong, he is using the British definition. Personally, I like the british concept better. I find it alot easier to explain what english is, when you have something to compare it to(the vertical axis). Also a good way to stay away from explaining deflection and swerve until a student is ready.

JB Cases
06-20-2010, 07:10 AM
I will go on record as saying that I agree that the majority usage of "english" refers to left or right. I have always felt otherwise and tried anyway to just use the word spin instead of english.

So thank you AZ community for clearing this up and the instructor is validated even if I still feel that the instruction is confusing to beginners and could have been done better if english were not a part of our pool vocabulary.

dr_dave
06-20-2010, 07:25 AM
Man, that seems pretty harsh. Anyone in the world can post a pool video, but not an instructor? And what did the guy do wrong, aside from having a different definition of english from yours? Sanction a guy who loves the game enough to take the instructors course, just because you dont agree with his terminology? I dont get that. You even said his concepts were correct.

I'm looking in The New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards, by Mike Shamos. Under English, the first thing it says is "Spin or twist applied to the cue ball by striking it off center." Yadda yadda.... the Brits refer to this as side. Last line: In American usage, "English" encompasses draw and follow as well as side.

So the instructor is not wrong, he is using the British definition. Personally, I like the british concept better. I find it alot easier to explain what english is, when you have something to compare it to (the vertical axis). Also a good way to stay away from explaining deflection and swerve until a student is ready.Agreed. "English" generally refers just to side spin. But phrases like "top-left English" are also common. I wish people (including me) would simply use "side-spin" instead of "english" (or "English," which is quite common, but grammatically awkward). "Right spin" and "top-left spin" are much clearer and won't cause grammar or "interpretation" arguments. Unfortunately, "English" is already too ingrained in the pool culture, and too many people (including me) will continue to use it.

I also like "American" (e.g., don't put too much "American" on the ball ... i.e., don't hit it too hard).

Regards,
Dave

12310bch
06-20-2010, 07:58 AM
It's really called "duckbutter" or "muckinpucky" or sometimes even "dewey".

Well, I don't think that the term ,"Dewey," is used for top or bottom
(draw) spin. That's strictly, "Right Dewey," or , "left Dewey."

For spin along the horizontal axis I'm sure the correct terminology is,
Top Duckbutter," or, " Bottom Duckbutter." At least that's what I hear the Filipinos calling it all the time. Lemme get a translation. Yes, I was correct .
The word for top or bottom spin is ,"pato mantikilya." For draw the just add the word Double yielding :" Double pato mantikilya."

Roger Long
06-20-2010, 08:37 AM
John, I would be interested in viewing that video. What is the address????...randyg

Randy, I am pretty sure it is one of my videos on Youtube. I would copy and paste the link for you, but I would have to go and find it amongst 80 different videos that I have there. Besides, I don't think it would serve any good purpose now.

Roger

Scott Lee
06-20-2010, 10:20 AM
Well, boy you sure have your nerve Roger...posting real information on You-Tube! It's supposed to be reserved for million-ball runs, and triple-tango-reverse jumbo masse' shots! :eek: :D J/K...keep on posting. Hope to see you in Vegas for the trade show.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Randy, I am pretty sure it is one of my videos on Youtube. I would copy and paste the link for you, but I would have to go and find it amongst 80 different videos that I have there. Besides, I don't think it would serve any good purpose now.

Roger

Philthepockets
06-20-2010, 10:57 AM
I heard a pro golfer on tv the other day use the term putting "english" on the ball but for the life of me I could not find it it any golf terminology glossary.
Maybe he plays pool as well :)

manwon
06-20-2010, 11:05 AM
Randy, I am pretty sure it is one of my videos on Youtube. I would copy and paste the link for you, but I would have to go and find it amongst 80 different videos that I have there. Besides, I don't think it would serve any good purpose now.

Roger

Roger, I appreciate the time you take to help out with all your articles, in publications like the The Break, Youtube Video's, and here on the forum. I would personally hope that you do not tire of the all nonsense that gets thrown your direction and stop doing all the things you do. You are always respectful and I have not seen you to date act out in manner that was negative to your readers or the concepts of what you are trying help the general public with.

Thanks for what you do Roger, staying out of this entire mess certainly says volumes for your charactor and it should be another lesson others can learn from if they would open their eyes.

Very Respectfully

Craig W. Rittel

Blue Hog ridr
06-20-2010, 11:48 AM
I'll second the motion Craig. Its guys like Roger and Dr. Dave that put in unreal amounts of time to help us out and make the pool world a better place to learn.

manwon
06-20-2010, 02:04 PM
I'll second the motion Craig. Its guys like Roger and Dr. Dave that put in unreal amounts of time to help us out and make the pool world a better place to learn.

I totally agree nit picking is not something we want to do with valued members, I mean if you do not understand why some one published some comments send them a PM and ask them, people make mistakes and if wrong I am certain it would be corrected.

Especially when the entire content of the information is designed to help those who are tyring to understand and improve themselves. Lets face it terms in the pool world are very standardized, in fact in many cases they are unclear.

I hope others see the value of these gentleman who tirelessly devote their time to teaching us all this sport with little to gain other than the satisfaction of knowing that they have helped others.:smile:

Again I would like to thank those who take the time to help my hat is off to you all.

JIMO

Thunderball
06-20-2010, 04:07 PM
Banned? I was wondering if that might happen.

JoeyA
06-20-2010, 06:16 PM
Roger, I appreciate the time you take to help out with all your articles, in publications like the The Break, Youtube Video's, and here on the forum. I would personally hope that you do not tire of the all nonsense that gets thrown your direction and stop doing all the things you do. You are always respectful and I have not seen you to date act out in manner that was negative to your readers or the concepts of what you are trying help the general public with.

Thanks for what you do Roger, staying out of this entire mess certainly says volumes for your charactor and it should be another lesson others can learn from if they would open their eyes.

Very Respectfully

Craig W. Rittel

Great post Craig!

06-20-2010, 06:46 PM
I totally agree nit picking is not something we want to do with valued members, I mean if you do not understand why some one published some comments send them a PM and ask them, people make mistakes and if wrong I am certain it would be corrected.

Especially when the entire content of the information is designed to help those who are tyring to understand and improve themselves. Lets face it terms in the pool world are very standardized, in fact in many cases they are unclear.

I hope others see the value of these gentleman who tirelessly devote their time to teaching us all this sport with little to gain other than the satisfaction of knowing that they have helped others.:smile:

Again I would like to thank those who take the time to help my hat is off to you all.

JIMO

Rep to you and Roger

pooltchr
06-20-2010, 08:32 PM
Roger, If it was your post, then I suspect you posted some valid information, that someone either misunderstood, or was just being picky. The only think I can think is that, as this thread has pointed out, there are some who think of english as one thing, and the rest, who see it differently,.

Steve

12310bch
06-21-2010, 01:18 AM
Roger, we all do appreciate your professional contributions and
the contributions of other contributers and you deserve a greenie for them.

But, you gotta do something about your avatar. It looks like you
should have a pitchfork in your hand, an old farm wife beside you
and a farmhouse in the background. ( no disrespect intended):woot:

Roger Long
06-21-2010, 08:13 AM
Roger, we all do appreciate your professional contributions and
the contributions of other contributers and you deserve a greenie for them.

But, you gotta do something about your avatar. It looks like you
should have a pitchfork in your hand, an old farm wife beside you
and a farmhouse in the background. ( no disrespect intended):woot:

I love it (your post)! You're absolutely right. I've gotta do something about that goofy thing! :eek:

Zeb

Craig Fales
06-21-2010, 08:18 AM
I read somewhere that it is very difficult to impart overspin to the cue ball and that what little bit you do impart is rapidly dissapated by the friction between the cloth and the ball. This makes perfect sense to me.

Dave NelsonDefine what you mean by overspin and were you referring to what someone said here?

Ponytail
06-21-2010, 08:34 AM
John..

At first I was in agreement with you. I thought any spin induced on the cue ball would fall under the definition of 'english'.

Which led me to my next question. What is the definition of 'english' as applied to billiards.

Here's what I've found.
Noun
english (uncountable)
(US) Spinning or rotary motion given to a ball around the vertical axis, as in billiards or bowling.
You can't hit it directly, but maybe if you give it some english. (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/english)

5. also english
a. The spin given to a propelled ball by striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist.
b. Bodily movement in an effort to influence the movement of a propelled object; body English. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/English)

☆ BILLIARDS, BOWLING, ETC. a spinning motion given to a ball, as by striking it on one side (http://www.yourdictionary.com/english)

4 : spin around the vertical axis deliberately imparted to a ball that is driven or rolled — compare draw, follow, body english (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/english)

=============

There are four examples, where two seem to support your point of view, and two seem to support the view that spin around the vertical axis is the only thing that is termed 'english'.

I guess I can see it from both points of view, so I would have to first find out what someone else's definition was, prior to having a discussion with them. I'm really not at a point where I can say one definition is more correct than another, or that one is just plain incorrect.

Maybe I'm trying to please everyone... :)

sde
06-21-2010, 08:38 AM
Define what you mean by overspin and were you referring to what someone said here?

Dave may have been referring to this thread, many posts by Dr. Dave, Mike Page, Bob Jewett and even PJ chimed in.

dr_dave
06-21-2010, 08:42 AM
Define what you mean by overspinFYI, explanations and video demonstrations of "overspin" can be found here:

Here's the definition in my online glossary (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/glossary.pdf):
over-spin: topspin more than the natural roll amount, causing the cue ball to accelerate forward.

Regards,
Dave

Cornerman
06-21-2010, 09:01 AM
I have always understood "English" to the be the term applied to all forms of spin on the ball.

I have cracked the Billiard Encyclopedia and there is some interesting reading there. Namely that Mignaud did not invent the leather tip but that he discovered how to dome it for maximum effect and that chalk was used before it's "supposed discovery by Bartley and Carr in the early 1820s".

And in that book on page 257 there is a quote about using spin - which refers to both side spin and follow and draw - whereby the authors of the BE, make no distinction just for sidespin and refer to all the spin types as "english" when describing the 1806's author's familiarity of it.

Therefore I conclude for the moment that "english" refers to ALL manner of meaningful spin generated by an off center hit.
.

FWIW, I agree with you. Whether or not the common usage among pool players has limited the word "english" to side spin, to me it's very obvious that the etymology of the word was pinned on the fact that the first people that Americans associated spin induced on the cue ball by the tip were English. There really isn't a logical reason why this would be limited to side spin.

My ears do not cringe if I hear "draw english" or "follow english." Similarly, if someone says "low, left-hand english," there's no issue. Clearly, we're talking about the spin around the center of the cueball.

Fred <~~~ would rather use the word "juice"

Cornerman
06-21-2010, 09:04 AM
I heard a pro golfer on tv the other day use the term putting "english" on the ball but for the life of me I could not find it it any golf terminology glossary.
Maybe he plays pool as well :)

Likewise, when Rajon Rondo tossed the high reverse layup against the glass in Game 5, the commentator said that he used the "right amount of english." Any European basketball player who doesn't shoot pool must have been a bit corn fused.

Fred

Eric.
06-21-2010, 09:20 AM
FWIW, I agree with you. Whether or not the common usage among pool players has limited the word "english" to side spin, to me it's very obvious that the etymology of the word was pinned on the fact that the first people that Americans associated spin induced on the cue ball by the tip were English. There really isn't a logical reason why this would be limited to side spin.

My ears do not cringe if I hear "draw english" or "follow english." Similarly, if someone says "low, left-hand english," there's no issue. Clearly, we're talking about the spin around the center of the cueball.

Fred <~~~ would rather use the word "juice"

For that matter, whats wrong with just calling it plain ol "spin"?

Eric >left spin, right spin, reverse follow spin....

pooltchr
06-21-2010, 10:03 AM
I agree. right, left, top, bottom, top right, bottom left...keeps it really simple.

Steve

tucson9ball
06-21-2010, 12:03 PM
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?

1) I do agree with this instructor about referring to left/right only as english.
2) I do not agree with him as far as english not effecting the path of the cue ball, in some cases.

There are many instructors who teach people about english. Some refer to it as strictly hitting left/right of the center. Some instructors call draw or follow, using english. It's just up to the particular instructor.
There are also books that refer to the use of english on the cue ball. Some refer to draw and follow as using english, some say that just sidespin, left/right, is true english.
We could probably debate this until the end of time, I feel that as long as you understand what the instructor or book is trying to teach, then you are good to go.

My thoughts: I don't refer to top/bottom as english. I also don't think top should be called follow or bottom should be called draw. For example: your shot is a little of angle to the far corner pocket. The object ball is about 6 ft. from the cue ball. Your next shot is a ball on the end rail so you don't want the cue ball to travel far after making the first ball. This table has been known to roll off on slow rolling shots. By hitting the cue ball below center you can hit the cue ball a little faster so it does not roll off, the backspin will turn into a slight skid just before contact allowing you to make the ball and still hold up the cue ball for position. So, in this shot you hit below center, some people call it draw, but you did not actually draw the cue ball, it was more of a stun.
Just my .02

So, I call left/right of center, english. I call low and high, just top/bottom.

Roger Long
06-21-2010, 03:16 PM

1) I do agree with this instructor about referring to left/right only as english.
2) I do not agree with him as far as english not effecting the path of the cue ball, in some cases.

There are many instructors who teach people about english. Some refer to it as strictly hitting left/right of the center. Some instructors call draw or follow, using english. It's just up to the particular instructor.
There are also books that refer to the use of english on the cue ball. Some refer to draw and follow as using english, some say that just sidespin, left/right, is true english.
We could probably debate this until the end of time, I feel that as long as you understand what the instructor or book is trying to teach, then you are good to go.

My thoughts: I don't refer to top/bottom as english. I also don't think top should be called follow or bottom should be called draw. For example: your shot is a little of angle to the far corner pocket. The object ball is about 6 ft. from the cue ball. Your next shot is a ball on the end rail so you don't want the cue ball to travel far after making the first ball. This table has been known to roll off on slow rolling shots. By hitting the cue ball below center you can hit the cue ball a little faster so it does not roll off, the backspin will turn into a slight skid just before contact allowing you to make the ball and still hold up the cue ball for position. So, in this shot you hit below center, some people call it draw, but you did not actually draw the cue ball, it was more of a stun.
Just my .02

So, I call left/right of center, english. I call low and high, just top/bottom.

Good thoughts, Chris, but I think it's time I clarified something for everyone since I am pretty sure it is my video that is being "reviewed" in this thread.

Without going back and examining the video again I think I can safely say that my message was that english (in my own preferred usage) refers only to side spin on a ball (doesn't have to be the cue ball), and that side spin is not used to change the path that the spinning ball takes as it comes off of another ball, but is primarily used to change the angle that it comes off of a cushion.

The reason for this is because there is not enough friction between two round, smooth objects such as pool balls to appreciably affect their angle of departure after colliding (divergence off of the tangent line). But that becomes a different story when a side spinning ball contacts a cushion because there is a greater friction factor when cloth is brought into the act.

I also believe that side spin on a ball does not have an appreciable effect on the path that it takes prior to hitting another ball or a cushion, unless said ball is also skidding or back spinning at the same time. If the ball is in a natural roll, any side spin it has on it has practically no effect on its direction of travel.

Thank you for your input. :smile:

Roger

Lexicologist71
06-21-2010, 03:23 PM
Striking the cueball left and right of center are English. Low is draw (initially). High is follow. Side spin DOES effect the tangent line, but only on some shots and only by a couple of degrees. That's not really enough to notice until your ability is such that you don't have to ask advice on this forum. When the cue ball strikes an object ball a glancing blow it follows the tangent line (approximately 90 degrees from the object balls path). It will follow this tangent line until any forward or rearward rotation (follow or draw) causes it to diverge from the tangent line. Regardless of speed, it will initially start following the tangent line. That path may change quicker than you can see, but said BCA instructor is correct.

Craig Fales
06-27-2010, 07:15 PM
FYI, explanations and video demonstrations of "overspin" can be found here:

Here's the definition in my online glossary (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/glossary.pdf):
over-spin: topspin more than the natural roll amount, causing the cue ball to accelerate forward.

Regards,
Dave

So it's another word for follow?

dr_dave
06-27-2010, 07:39 PM
FYI, explanations and video demonstrations of "overspin" can be found here:

Here's the definition in my online glossary (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/glossary.pdf):
over-spin: topspin more than the natural roll amount, causing the cue ball to accelerate forward.

Regards,
DaveSo it's another word for follow?Over-spin occurs during a follow shot, but only soon after the CB hits the OB. As soon as roll develops (which occurs sooner with slower follow shots), there is no longer any over-spin.

Regards,
Dave

ShootingArts
06-27-2010, 08:03 PM
Good thoughts, Chris, but I think it's time I clarified something for everyone since I am pretty sure it is my video that is being "reviewed" in this thread.

Without going back and examining the video again I think I can safely say that my message was that english (in my own preferred usage) refers only to side spin on a ball (doesn't have to be the cue ball), and that side spin is not used to change the path that the spinning ball takes as it comes off of another ball, but is primarily used to change the angle that it comes off of a cushion.

The reason for this is because there is not enough friction between two round, smooth objects such as pool balls to appreciably affect their angle of departure after colliding (divergence off of the tangent line). But that becomes a different story when a side spinning ball contacts a cushion because there is a greater friction factor when cloth is brought into the act.

I also believe that side spin on a ball does not have an appreciable effect on the path that it takes prior to hitting another ball or a cushion, unless said ball is also skidding or back spinning at the same time. If the ball is in a natural roll, any side spin it has on it has practically no effect on its direction of travel.

Thank you for your input. :smile:

Roger

Roger,

Often when giving instruction as you did in your videos the first thing we have to do is clarify how a term is used in the niche we are discussing or what we mean by a term. You did that according to John's own thread starter.

I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

Now you have defined "english" for your purposes to mean side spin. It doesn't matter at this point if the watcher normally uses "english" to refer to a miscue or the powder he puts on his hands, you have defined "english" to mean side spin in your videos.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

I'm in the camp that splits hairs a little and says that sidespin can affect the path slightly. I'm thinking about the dull colored balls sometimes found on bar tables and when the balls are dirty and wet as an extreme case. However the accepted pool "truth" is that side spin doesn't affect the path of the cue ball off of the object ball and those of us that disagree I think do all agree that the effect is rarely significant. This doesn't really matter because John agrees with you later in the same post:

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom. Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

John's contention is that draw and follow have to be english also because they require chalk:

I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

Continuing with John's logic jump shots and masse shots are also english because they require chalk to execute properly also. Of course in John's final post he acknowledges he is wrong about the proper usage of english but maintains that he should be right anyway!

I will go on record as saying that I agree that the majority usage of "english" refers to left or right. I have always felt otherwise and tried anyway to just use the word spin instead of english.

So thank you AZ community for clearing this up and the instructor is validated even if I still feel that the instruction is confusing to beginners and could have been done better if english were not a part of our pool vocabulary.