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Neil
06-21-2010, 11:02 AM
................

SpiderWebComm
06-21-2010, 11:11 AM
That's a tough one. I would never wanna try for the run here.... but just for sh1ts and giggles, I'd say:

Make the one top-left corner with follow. Accept the longer 2-4 combo. Shoot combo to catch the edge of the 3 for the breakout. Hope for a shot and run out from there.

Tough. Tough.

dabarbr
06-21-2010, 11:12 AM
Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV@

Wow! This is a difficult out. I'm interested in seeing how you did it. I might be inclined to play safe to get the balls in better position or play the one- seven -nine combo.

I can see a couple of ways to run out but both are difficult and need excellent shooting.

Eric.
06-21-2010, 11:13 AM
Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV@

These posts remind me that Jude created a monster :p

OK, I'll play: I would pocket the 1 in the far corner, draw the CB back for a shot on teh 2/9 combo. TRy to get the CB behind the 5 ball and use the right speed to possibly get the 2 ball to the middle of the end rail, should you miss the combo.


Eric >at first glance

robleyf7
06-21-2010, 11:15 AM
well if the 3 passes the 6 too both corner pockets i would

play the 1 in the top right corner come 3 rails for shape on the2-4 combo

play the 2 in same corner

play the 3 in the corner by the 6 make the cb hit 1 rail to middle of table

play the 5in the corner as the 2-4

play the 6 in corner make the cb hit 2 rails for shape on the 7 then 9 in the corner

robleyf7
06-21-2010, 11:18 AM
sorry for dbl post does the 1 pass the 7 to go straight in the corner or 3 even pass for the corner by the 6?

dabarbr
06-21-2010, 11:21 AM
well if the 3 passes the 6 too both corner pockets i would

play the 1 in the top right corner come 3 rails for shape on the2-4 combo

play the 2 in same corner

play the 3 in the corner by the 6 make the cb hit 1 rail to middle of table

play the 5in the corner as the 2-4

play the 6 in corner make the cb hit 2 rails for shape on the 7 then 9 in the corner

Everything you say looks good untill you get to the three ball, It doesn't appear to pass the six ball. The three appears to be the key ball in this runout. Maybe a carom to pocket the six off the three is possible?

Neil
06-21-2010, 11:24 AM
............

robleyf7
06-21-2010, 11:25 AM
Everything you say looks good untill you get to the three ball, It doesn't appear to pass the six ball. The three appears to be the key ball in this runout. Maybe a carom to pocket the six off the three is possible?

i wasent sure if the 3 passed the 6 so ii just ran the table if the 3 passed but if it don.t i would prolly play the carom

MikeyLittle
06-21-2010, 11:25 AM
A runout would def. not be my first choice I would possibly hit the one off the rail into the mess of balls leaving the cue on the 7 and hope for something better if I got a BIH lol, but a run out would just be what was said before, 1 top corner draw back and go for 2-9 combo

robleyf7
06-21-2010, 11:28 AM
A runout would def. not be my first choice I would possibly hit the one off the rail into the mess of balls leaving the cue on the 7 and hope for something better if I got a BIH lol, but a run out would just be what was said before, 1 top corner draw back and go for 2-9 combo

the 1 does not pass for the corner for draw back u have too shoot it in top right corner an come 3 rails for combo an u have too run it out not playing combo

JustinHayes
06-21-2010, 11:53 AM
A good man always knows his limitations... for that, I play safe here.... or if goofing around I go for the 1-7-9 combo.

... I know I don't have good enough CB control to get a nice shot on that 3

Eric.
06-21-2010, 12:03 PM
the 1 does not pass for the corner for draw back u have too shoot it in top right corner an come 3 rails for combo an u have too run it out not playing combo

I think Mikey was saying the same thing I was; shoot the 1 ball in the upper left corner(as viewed on the Wei table) draw the CB off the side rail and (hoepfully) straight on teh 2, to shoot the 2/9 combo. Either way, the 2 is going down table and if you miss the 9, the 3/6 cluster is no prize. Also, the OP didn't say you had to run the rack. More like "what would you do"?


Eric

paksat
06-21-2010, 12:09 PM
what spidey said.. you musta been goofing around though, way to many intangibles to try and run this.

Neil
06-21-2010, 12:19 PM
.................

NewStroke
06-21-2010, 12:36 PM
That's awesome Neil! Thank you!

Spimp13
06-21-2010, 12:37 PM
Combo the one and seven into the nine cross banking it in the corner :)....

Ok on a more serious note if you are not playing safe which is a good option with the clusters then shoot the one with straight follow to about the middle of the table. Shoot the two four combo and in the process you will bump the five. Due to the speed the five will hit the rail and bounce out. I am guessing the four was left in a spot where you could cut it in the same corner using inside english to break out the three and six and then you got out from there.

Edit, while typing my post Neil posted how he did it lol.

Neil
06-21-2010, 01:41 PM
...............

mullyman
06-21-2010, 05:06 PM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV1PVgW1QF Ke1RCQo1UXsc1UbGH1UbGH1UJEj1UCQo1kVgW1kVoX1lFKe1lE tn2lAfg1mCQo2mbCD2mOSe@

Ok, hear me out on ball placement here. The dotted cueball is positioned where I'd want it to end up after the first shot, putting the 1 2 rails near the 9, where cue ball B is (cue ball B refers to the 1 ball). After that, I take cue ball A and knock the one behind the 3-6 and the cue ball on the other side of it. My opponent has a good chance to kick one rail after that first shot but if they miss I got 'em for the third foul. If they hit it I go to plan B. I'm not offensive enough to go for the run out on a rack like this. Not my style at all.
MULLY

Neil
06-21-2010, 05:52 PM
................

Black-Balled
06-22-2010, 06:04 AM
I would punt.

Don't know that I'd prescribe what you did...but one ant doesn't tell another what to do.

That shit makes people weak in the knees!;)

Aaron_S
06-22-2010, 07:16 AM
Nice out Neil!

I sometimes surprise myself in the heat of the moment, so I won't say that I wouldn't go for the out, but the inclination I have right now is to use the easy safety behind the 7-ball to try to create something simpler.

Against a weaker player, I like two-railing the 1-ball at the 2-ball, hoping for it to stop short and leave a manageable 1-9 combo. Decent speed and freezing to the 7 should preclude them from shooting an easy long rail kick to hit the 1.

Against a strong opponent, I would probably play the safety on page 2. Tuck the 1 down below the 2/5 and freeze to the top of the 7. The hit on the 1 is very difficult from there, and with the 1 down there, I have more offensive and defensive options for my next shot. A good player may just tie balls up after I do that, but I'll be happy playing another safety if it's too messed up. If I got BIH, though, I might play the 1 into the 3/6 like you did with the cueball, which would open the rack up real nice.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV1Pawx1UX sc3UQWk3UbAh1UHlx1kawx1kaPq1kYJg@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1D SyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV1PSEW1UXsc1UbWD1ULHk1kSEW1k WeP1kWuY@

Again, nice out.
Aaron

Bambu
06-22-2010, 07:45 AM
Nice out. But why pass up an easy chance to glue your opponent on a ball? You even had the chance to kick the 1 towards some other balls for an easy 3rd safe. Again nice out, but bad choice for most players(IMHO). To go for that run I would have to be facing an inexperienced opponent, or have a huge lead.

robleyf7
06-22-2010, 09:19 AM
i sure would like too see anyone run this out not easy i tell yah not going for the 9 or safe straight run out an too shoot the 1 like Niel did with low left an get around the 7 like he did good shooting but i still like too see someone do this

Eric.
06-22-2010, 10:14 AM
i sure would like too see anyone run this out not easy i tell yah not going for the 9 or safe straight run out an too shoot the 1 like Niel did with low left an get around the 7 like he did good shooting but i still like too see someone do this

I agree with ya. For someone to say that this is an easy out is nuts. IMO, if you're playing to win, and not to showboat, you have too many potential problems to say "F it, I can probably get out here".

Short of a world beater, I'll give anyone 10 tries at this and lets see if they run out more than 6-7 times (no combo on the 9).


Eric

steev
06-22-2010, 10:20 AM
safe, safe, safe.

freeze to the (from the layout's perspective) 9:00 side of the seven, rolliing the one ball one or two rails (depending on exact placement) to an easy BIH combo on the nine. if you freeze the CB where i said, he'll have to kick uptable.

-s

pt109
06-22-2010, 10:27 AM
Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV@

I'm with Mully here.
Going for the 3-foul.If he rearranges the furniture too much you can
always change your game plan.

Neil,you're a maniac for running out here....
..but you wouldn't be a bad guy to have in the next fox hole...:smile:

Neil
06-22-2010, 10:29 AM
.............

Eric.
06-22-2010, 11:03 AM
Again, I'll say that I feel too many of you are stuck on what the whole table looks like, and aren't breaking it down. I really wish a few of you would re-read what I have written about this out, understand what I have said, and then set up the exact same layout on a barbox and try it.

But, try it with a positive mindset, not one trying to prove it is too hard to do. Only thing you MIGHT have to change on the layout is the 1-7. The one will not go in the bottom corner past the 7, and will not go in the side. Upper top corner is the only open pocket for it. That said, in my diagram, it looks like you have to immediately go forward with the cue ball, and then have it back up. Set it up so a medium hard stun shot will still miss the 7. THEN the cb backs up a little for position.

If you actually try this out, the way I described, I believe a number of you will be very surprised that it is not as hard as you want to think it is.

In the WEI thing, the 3 appears to be ovelapping the 6 a lil meaning that you would have to play a tickie (carom off the 3, then off the head rail, then hit the 6). If that is the case, I would be willing to give you 10 tries to run out the rack, with a line of 6. If you cant run out more than 50% of the time, the runout, IMO, aint the best move.


Eric

steev
06-22-2010, 11:19 AM
I just don't understand why you're preaching the viability of running this out. Statistically, you've got to be 50/50 at best just hitting the first shot you described with that funky draw off the rail. If you disagree, you're lying to yourself.

-s

Neil
06-22-2010, 03:04 PM
..............

Neil
06-22-2010, 03:07 PM
..............

robleyf7
06-22-2010, 03:16 PM
i agree the 1 can be made that niel shot it an bring the cb around the 7 like he did but only on a very new an slick cloth if the cloth grips tomuch i don.t think it can be done an as for the run out i will try this set up i shoot pretty sporty u have too get perfect shape on every shot

Good Job Niel if u really did run this out running this out is very tough an my Hats off too u my friend

Neil
06-22-2010, 03:19 PM
...............

Black-Balled
06-23-2010, 06:09 AM
Guys, I'm not trying to impress anyone here with a runnout. What would be the point in that???...

I know these shots, so they aren't a problem to me. ...;)

To you, a higher % out than for most.

Damn solid out. Again, that's the type of stuff that makes opponents fold...and separates the men from the boys.

Masayoshi
06-23-2010, 06:18 AM
I just don't understand why you're preaching the viability of running this out. Statistically, you've got to be 50/50 at best just hitting the first shot you described with that funky draw off the rail. If you disagree, you're lying to yourself.

-s

It's not that bad of a shot on a bar table.

As for going for that out, I probably would rather just play a safety. Going for the out has too much that can go wrong. Of course I rarely play barbox, so I'm not really accustomed to the strategy of it.

Eric.
06-23-2010, 08:50 AM
It is a little, and no you don't. All you have to do is just miss the 3 with follow and a lot of left and medium speed. The cb will compress the rail, come off the rail, hit the 3, and the spin and follow will propel perfectly into the 6. Try it.
Neil, that is what a "tickie" is, or, what I mentioned originally.
Or just ask dabarbr, he knows, and even posted that this is what he would do with the 3-6.

Guys, I'm not trying to impress anyone here with a runnout. What would be the point in that??? I'm using this runnout to try and teach some concepts about how to look at the rack. If you aren't even willing to try these 3 shots, meaning the one, the carom off the three, and the combo 2-4, which are your only situations in this rack, then I am wasting my time trying to teach some advanced concepts on here. And, quite frankly, they really aren't that advanced. More like overlooked concepts.

Thanks for looking down on us, the unwashed masses. The funny thing is that your level of play aint that high to be condescending, Neil.

I know these shots, so they aren't a problem to me. If you think they are crazy, low percentage, or just showing off, try them at least ten times and get a good feel for them. Then, you will have them in your bag for later. If you want to just flatout dismiss them, then that is your loss. Have fun staying at whatever level you are at.

See above

Oh, for those of you that will try at least the shot on the one, don't be too surprised when you get too much draw and end up on the other side of the 9!


Neil, I tried the runout as you depicted. Granted, I tried on a 9' GC (I don't have a barbox) and I still maintain that the runout aint "high percentage". Some areas I found to be tricky; 1. pounding the 1 ball to draw it across the table with the CB only being within a few inches from the OB. 2. You need to be fairly straight on the 2 to play the combo. Too much angle makes it real dicey. 3. you have to hit the tickie on the 3 pretty firm to pocket the 6, sending the 3 into outer space. A couple of times, teh 3 didn't land in a great spot. Oh, don't forget that you have to be fairly straight on the 3 to play the tickie. Too much angle, and you're screwed.

That said, the runout is a low percentage out, for me. Perhaps you can show us a video of you running this out? Film it 10 times in a row.


Eric

steev
06-23-2010, 09:02 AM
Perhaps you can show us a video of you running this out? Film it 10 times in a row.


Eric

I second that. If you make it seven out of ten, I'll publicly apologize for doubting you. Til then, maybe talking down to the whole internet isn't your thing.

-s

steev
06-23-2010, 09:02 AM
I second that. If you make it seven out of ten, I'll publicly apologize for doubting you. Til then, maybe talking down to the whole internet isn't your thing.

-s

oh, and unless it's 9 out of 10, i'm still playing safe there.

-s

Neil
06-23-2010, 09:23 AM
...............

Neil
06-23-2010, 09:26 AM
.................

Eric.
06-23-2010, 09:27 AM
Number one, I'm not talking 'down' to anyone. I never said my level of play was that high, thanks for making my point. If even I can get out here, others should be able to too. If you are pounding the one, quite frankly, you don't know how to control the cb very well, or you better start playing on a table without dead rails.

All I'm trying to do on here, is help. You guys want to take it as something else, then I will stop trying to help. I'm not getting anything out of this anyways.

I still maintain that it is not that difficult of an out. Touch, maybe. Hard, no. If you think otherwise, fine, have it your way. But, quite frankly, you are missing the whole point of the thread, and are bent on just trying to make me look bad instead of trying to learn something. Typical forum behavior lately. I'm wasting my breath here.

Look, Neil, since you maintain that this is not a difficult out, for you, why don't you go downstairs and make a video? I'm a doubter and I would love to see you try this 10x in a row.


Eric

Eric.
06-23-2010, 09:29 AM
And, just for the record, I know what a 'tickie' is. That is NOT what you said, you said to hit the 3 BEFORE hitting the end rail, which is why I said what I did. To clarify exactly what I did do. Have a nice day.

That isn't what I said, you need to re-read my post. I said "tickie" not "carom".

Tickie: http://www.billiardsforum.info/billiard-terms-definition/tickie.asp


Eric >do it on video, Neil

steev
06-23-2010, 09:39 AM
This run out attitude is present in a lot of people around here too. I just wish they gambled more.

I play to win, have a background in statistical analysis, and shoot pretty sporty too. Your arguments have not swayed me.

why am i still reading this thread? this is the last bait i fall for, i swear.

-s

Neil
06-23-2010, 09:39 AM
..............

Eric.
06-23-2010, 09:45 AM
There's what you said Eric. One of my students just got here. I set this scenario up, and she made the one on the first try, and got shape on the two. By the way, she's an APA 6. :p

Neil, apparently, your definition of tickie and everyone else's differ:

Tickie= Tickie Definition

A tickie is a type of shot in cue sports where the cue ball is driven initially to one or more rails, after which it strikes a legal object ball before rebounding back to the last rail it was in contact with. A tickie is a common shot in carom billiard games, and the term can also be applied to any shot that meets the above requirements in any cue sport game.

http://www.billiardsforum.info/billiard-terms-definition/tickie.asp


Eric >wants to see Neil do it on video (and hopes Neil's student isn't PAYING for those lessons)

ftgokie
06-23-2010, 10:09 AM
If i was playing just for fun on this type of layout...I might try and run, but I highly doubt it....

If its a money game or tournament, your silly for even trying it IMHO...I say shoot, duck and make the other person work his ass off on trying to come up with something and hopefully breaking a cluster out so you can get get in good position to run......

ftgokie
06-23-2010, 10:11 AM
And just for the record...I think there was alot of luck in running this out...Like Eric said...if a person can get out from this layout...hell, 5x out of 10 would really impress me....

Cornerman
06-23-2010, 10:38 AM
Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV@

Easy as pie. Kick at the 1/7 pair sending the 7 into the 9, splitting the upper right pocket. Acknowledge the crowd as they give you a standing ovation.

Fred

ftgokie
06-23-2010, 10:42 AM
Easy as pie. Kick at the 1/7 pair sending the 7 into the 9, splitting the upper right pocket. Acknowledge the crowd as they give you a standing ovation.

Fred

Son of a B!&ch...:thud: I didnt see that.....Hell, this thing they call pool is easy. :D

steev
06-23-2010, 10:49 AM
I wonder why Neil has stopped reply-ing? Is he getting it on video?

I can see it now..."ok, take 27, this time for sure!"

-s

incognito
06-23-2010, 10:51 AM
The run out looks way too difficult for almost anyone. Definitely beyond my ability. I think the best shot here is to just bank the 1-ball 1 rail towards the 9 and freeze the cue ball on the 7. Try to get ball in hand and a combo on the 9.

Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV@

Deadon
06-23-2010, 10:59 AM
It is a little, and no you don't. All you have to do is just miss the 3 with follow and a lot of left and medium speed. The cb will compress the rail, come off the rail, hit the 3, and the spin and follow will propel perfectly into the 6. Try it. Or just ask dabarbr, he knows, and even posted that this is what he would do with the 3-6.

Neil;

Disagree with you completely. This is a difficult out at best. You actually did the tickie as indicated, thats why your CB is on the end rail and the 3 ball went up table so far. Making a carom or tickie on a frozen, or very close, ball over a diamond from the pocket on a diamond table is a difficult shot at best.

Read Franks post again, you suggest he supports your position that this is an easy out. When it clearly is not.

Would love to see you do it on video.

incognito
06-23-2010, 12:08 PM
Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?



Neil, I know you're a really good pool player but are just trying to pull everybody's leg here? Running out from the layout on that diagram looks almost impossible.

Neil
06-23-2010, 12:21 PM
..............

Neil
06-23-2010, 12:27 PM
..............

steev
06-23-2010, 12:29 PM
One would think that with your background you would have enough sense to try and and learn something. Instead, you fall in the category of wanting to just dispel what someone else says with zero effort to improve on your part.

VIDEO! VIDEO! VIDEO! or else stfu.

And, you condescending ... (forum rules prevent me saying this part), I know all those shots at least as well as you, I'm just not egotistical enough to try to run that out when I want to win.

In the first post you asked 'What would you do?'. I added my (IMO, useful) opinion to the discussion. You've been preaching your opinion since. Back it the fck up with some video or let this drop.

-s

Eric.
06-23-2010, 12:31 PM
Neil,

Perhaps it might quiet all of us down if you made a video showing you trying this 10 times in a row. You have a table downstairs and I assume you have a $200 camera with video capabilities (or smart phone). You obviously have a computer (from your many posts on AZB).

In all seriousness, I honestly would like to see you make this runout look easy. Truly. Maybe it will make me reconsider my opinion on table layouts. If your goal here was to teach us, I'm willing to learn.


Eric >youtube?

Eric.
06-23-2010, 12:35 PM
I know what a tickie is, apparently you don't, even with copying it. Instead of just trying to be a jerk that you excel at, try reading with at least a 4th grade comprehension. Re-read your initial post, the one I quoted, the one where YOU said to carom into the 3, THEN hit the end rail, THEN off the 3 to the 6. As far as the lessons slam, if you were getting them, then maybe you could make a shot that an APA can make on the first try.

Instead of trying to learn something, so many of you just want to pile on and try and start another flame thread. Have fun with that, I'm done with it. Flame on kids.

And, to clarify, you have a reading comprehension issue.

I said to play a tickie. A tickie involves shooting the CB into the rail first. I mentioned to play a tickie(rail first), then carom off the 3 ball, then into the head rail again (making it a Tickie), hitting the 6. Geez, louise. It's in writing, I can't believe that this is actually being debated, lolol!

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2477211&postcount=29


Eric

justadub
06-23-2010, 12:40 PM
I wonder why Neil has stopped reply-ing? Is he getting it on video?

I can see it now..."ok, take 27, this time for sure!"

-s

I would personally like to thank you for doing your best to antagonize Neil in this thread. You sure have done a good job of it. Quite an accomplishment, ticking off someone who is trying to help others learn the game better.

It is too bad you can't let it go. If you want to doubt him, sure, go ahead, it's an open forum after all. But to continue to poke and prod for no constructive reason is troll-ish. I would think it could be done in a more civil manner, but hey, this is the internet, where folks LOVE to speak with other people in a manner to which they would NEVER do face to face with.

Neil, I appreciate your thread and your attempt at teaching here. Personally I wouldn't attempt this run-out in a match given my current ability level, but I certainly would like to try it in a practice environment. I realize that I'll never be able to do it until I try and practice this, or any other type of difficult shot sequence.

In short Neil, don't let the trolls get you down. Rest assured you have many more people reading these threads that do appreciate what you are trying to accomplish here. You have my thanks for doing so.

incognito
06-23-2010, 12:41 PM
Neil,

Perhaps it might quiet all of us down if you made a video showing you trying this 10 times in a row. You have a table downstairs and I assume you have a $200 camera with video capabilities (or smart phone). You obviously have a computer (from your many posts on AZB).

In all seriousness, I honestly would like to see you make this runout look easy. Truly. Maybe it will make me reconsider my opinion on table layouts. If your goal here was to teach us, I'm willing to learn.


Eric >youtube?

I second this. It would be a very impressive run out and I'd really like to see it. 10 chances, run 'em out on the practice table.

Neil
06-23-2010, 01:01 PM
..............

Eric.
06-23-2010, 01:07 PM
Thanks Justadub, but I have just about had it. As far as any videos, I wouldn't post one if I had one. All that would prove and show is that I did make the out. Big deal, there have been thousands and thousands of better outs made before. All I was doing is showing an out I made, and how to do it, and that it is not that hard at all. If you try it, and work on it for a few tries, anyone can do it. It's just pieces of a puzzle, one piece at a time. Too many ..... on here that just want to flame, and go "show me or it didn't happen". Not enough people actually wanting to learn something.

And, to those that do know these shots, but won't shoot them, have fun sitting in your chair when your opponents DO shoot them. If you can make them, then you are an idiot for not making them. End of rant.

Nice backpedal. C'ya, Neil.


Eric >so much for Neil teaching us

JustinHayes
06-23-2010, 01:27 PM
Neil, I enjoy all of your "What would you do here" posts. It does get me to thinking about how I would play it. Also, you have showed me different methods to get out on a layout that I wouldn't have otherwise thought about.

I appreciate that you're trying to do with this post and your method on this layout..... but...

Remember, you asked "What would you do?" ... I, and many others, said what we would do. Most of us play safe here...... and I'm glad you gave your reasoning on why we should try the runout.

... maybe it's how you placed the ball in the diagram, but that 3-ball looks less than a balls-width away from the rail.... maybe in your real-life situation it might have been a little farther out? .... but regardless at my level, I don't think I could get a good shot when dealing with the 3-6 cluster.... but that's just me.

I think you may be getting pissed and instead of trying to teach us, you may be a little hard on those of us that don't think our ability to make a high-percentage shot there is probable.

justadub
06-23-2010, 01:44 PM
The issue isn't one of disagreeing with Neil, the issue is one of making a pissing contest out of it. An issue of "make a video and prove it" crap. An issue of being combative and an instigator, rather than one of having a respectful conversation.

I am sure that Neil would continue to have a reasonable discussion about the chances of making this run-out, if he were being spoken to in a civil manner. The manner in which he presented this in the first place.

We could all get so much further in this world if we would try to get along and not try to stir-the-stuff. Keyboard cowboys are the ruination of anything productive here.

I always learn something from Neils "What Would You Do" scenarios. I want to see them continue. So I would like you guys to lay off, and if you disagree, state it like a real human that you might want to have a conversation with someday.

Sheesh.

Eric.
06-23-2010, 01:50 PM
The issue isn't one of disagreeing with Neil, the issue is one of making a pissing contest out of it. An issue of "make a video and prove it" crap. An issue of being combative and an instigator, rather than one of having a respectful conversation.

I am sure that Neil would continue to have a reasonable discussion about the chances of making this run-out, if he were being spoken to in a civil manner. The manner in which he presented this in the first place.

We could all get so much further in this world if we would try to get along and not try to stir-the-stuff. Keyboard cowboys are the ruination of anything productive here.

I always learn something from Neils "What Would You Do" scenarios. I want to see them continue. So I would like you guys to lay off, and if you disagree, state it like a real human that you might want to have a conversation with someday.

Sheesh.

And, that is the truest definition of irony.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/irony

You see, everyone here was civil with their honest opinions and questions. The only person on this thread that got condescending, defensive and started name calling (calling ppl jerks, etc) was...the guy you're defending.


Eric >show us how easy it is on vid, Neil

alstl
06-23-2010, 01:52 PM
4-1-7-9-3-6...5 key ball, 2 break ball.

justadub
06-23-2010, 01:57 PM
And, that is the truest definition of irony.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/irony

You see, everyone here was civil with their honest opinions and questions. The only person on this thread that got condescending, defensive and started name calling (calling ppl jerks, etc) was...the guy you're defending.


Eric >show us how easy it is on vid, Neil

I believe one would call that tit-for-tat. Or perhaps getting a little of what you're dishing out.

I'm not gonna get into a post-by-post analysis. What I will say is that if the arguments weren't spiteful and snide, this thread would have a whole different tone to it. Please don't tell me that challenging Neil to make a video of this isn't condesending and argumentitive, and beyond the scope of the thread.

Neil has posted something he has done, and feels is easier accomplished than it might look initially. And that one should try it before dismissing it as being too tough. If you don't agree, cool, say so and move on. Stop trying to beat him down for actually believing that you and I might have a better chance at doing it than we would think when looking at it.

dabarbr
06-23-2010, 02:19 PM
There are a lot of ways to approach this layout. Many prefer the safety to maybe get a better starting point on the one. Which is an ok option.

I don't fault the attempt that Neil took for the chance of running out. Remember this is a bar table. Myself, I don't agree with the way he positioned the two ball. I would prefer the three rails forward to assure the chance of getting better position for the two-four combination. The results of this combo and the position of the two will now determine if I would continue with the chance to run out.

If the carom on the six is available then ok, if not, maybe a breakout on the three is there, if not, then there is always the opportunity for a safe.

A Safety with the enitial ball in hand, and with so many balls on the table, and it being a bar table, could turn your advantage around if your opponent happens to make a legal hit on the one and in turn putting you on the defense.

I don't think the out, because it's on a bar table, is as difficult as many think it to be. The key to this out would be how the two is positioned after the combantion on the four.

How many times one does it out of so many means nothing. You only need to do it once when it counts.

ftgokie
06-23-2010, 03:01 PM
I honestly believe Neil ran this out...but, this is NO WAY an easy out. If it was a tourney or a money game, can you honesty say you would try and run out with CB in hand every time....NO.

I will say this, I would put money down that this couldnt be ran out 5 out of 10x..by a normal player....

Neil
06-23-2010, 03:33 PM
..............

TATE
06-23-2010, 03:35 PM
I don't think the out, because it's on a bar table, is as difficult as many think it to be...

...if you're name is Frank the Barber. In fact, it's a hanger!!!

Chris

...still remembering all those 1-10 combo's Frank made in the Ring Game!.


(Honestly, this is why I don't participate in the bar table discussions. The bar table game is foreign to us guys who are glued to 9' tables with tight pockets.)

ftgokie
06-23-2010, 03:39 PM
I did run it, and it was in a tournament. I NEVER said I could run it every time. But, I did run it when it counted. Now, I'll ask you this- you want to play safe, (even though my initial post asked how you would run this), I'll guarantee you that if you play safe, you will run out for the win 0% of the time. But, yet, somehow you see your odds as better than what I did.????

Making the one is a basic shot. Getting shape requires that you can do a controlled speed draw. If you fail to get shape off the one, then you can play safe. If you fail for shape on the two off the combo, then you can play safe. In this case, I think playing safe off the one is a total waste of a perfectly good turn.

If you can break out trouble balls with control with ball and hand and stick your opponent, fine, that's not the case here.

As long as you ran it when it counted is all that really matters. As far as my odds, heck I havnt picked up a cue in 4 months but I bet I play a solid 7 low 8 speed right now.

Yes, I would play safe on that layout..it might be the wrong choice, but that is what I would feel more comfortable doing...

incognito
06-23-2010, 03:40 PM
I'll guarantee you that if you play safe, you will run out for the win 0% of the time.

Regarding the safe or lack thereof, could you have banked the 1 ball 1 rail off the side rail towards the 9, freezing the cue ball on the 7-ball for a strong safety and leaving a 1-9 combo if you got ball in hand?

cuetechasaurus
06-23-2010, 03:47 PM
In the WEI thing, the 3 appears to be ovelapping the 6 a lil meaning that you would have to play a tickie (carom off the 3, then off the head rail, then hit the 6). If that is the case, I would be willing to give you 10 tries to run out the rack, with a line of 6. If you cant run out more than 50% of the time, the runout, IMO, aint the best move.


Eric

I was thinking the same thing, and the tickie with the edge of the 3 overlapping the 6 requires an absolute perfect hit with lots of follow I believe. Very difficult to pull off.

If you could fit the cue ball between the 3 and the rail the shot becomes a lot easier.

Edited: I guess they are both tickies

TATE
06-23-2010, 03:52 PM
I was thinking the same thing, and the tickie with the edge of the 3 overlapping the 6 requires an absolute perfect hit with lots of follow I believe. Very difficult to pull off.

If you could fit the cue ball between the 3 and the rail the shot becomes easier, and it's a carom off the rail, into the 3 then into the 6.

I hate to be stupid, but actually - what the heck is a tickie anyway? Is it just a kiss?

Masayoshi
06-23-2010, 05:16 PM
I hate to be stupid, but actually - what the heck is a tickie anyway? Is it just a kiss?

tickie (ticky?) - rail first hit, but generally only used when the object ball is close to a rail and the cueball returns to the same rail after the hit.

dabarbr
06-23-2010, 07:21 PM
I hate to be stupid, but actually - what the heck is a tickie anyway? Is it just a kiss?

This shot is normally struck with running english and with the second object ball not to far from the pocket. The farther from the pocket the more precise the hit needs to be. Rail first, then first object ball, and then to second object ball. If the second ball is fairly tight to the rail the running english will give a little insurance by hitting the rail for the second time and then spinning to the ball.

A unique variation of this shot is when the two balls are frozen to each other with the second ball also frozen to the rail. You strike rail first and then the first ball. The first ball then separates and positions the second ball slightly off the rail and waits for the cue ball to come off the rail for the second time to strike it into the pocket. We need the wei table to show a magnified view of this.

A bonus rep for someone that can diagram this.

TheCueHunter
06-23-2010, 09:07 PM
I have read this whole thread....(time of my life I will never have back) and I call Bullcrap! I enjoyed the part Neil called the AZ world "idiots" if they dont try this out.. nice christian talk BTW...

But my only question after sifting through this non sense is directed at Neil....

Neil...Do you gamble? And when can I come to your city and play you? If you try to run out from there in a tourny, great! But if you try that gambling time and time again...you will need a third job:thumbup:


Can you promise to never play safe when we gamble?? If so you have the eight:cool:

good night

ftgokie
06-23-2010, 09:58 PM
I dont doubt he ran out...I just think its 2 risky to even attempt it...inless you just HAVE to run a Hail Mary..I say bank the one down by the 6 and freeze the CB against the 7 and make the other guy pull something out of his arse :thumbup:

Black-Balled
06-24-2010, 06:36 AM
I hate to be stupid, but actually - what the heck is a tickie anyway? Is it just a kiss?
rail-ball-rail-ball...
here's one from some guy from the NE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGnEa4UBJPQ

Aaron_S
06-24-2010, 08:30 AM
Yeah, but what about rail-rail-ball-rail-rail-rail-rail-rail-rail-ball? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dg7_erDujo

pt109
06-24-2010, 08:40 AM
Number one, I'm not talking 'down' to anyone. I never said my level of play was that high, thanks for making my point. If even I can get out here, others should be able to too. If you are pounding the one, quite frankly, you don't know how to control the cb very well, or you better start playing on a table without dead rails.

All I'm trying to do on here, is help. You guys want to take it as something else, then I will stop trying to help. I'm not getting anything out of this anyways.

I still maintain that it is not that difficult of an out. Touch, maybe. Hard, no. If you think otherwise, fine, have it your way. But, quite frankly, you are missing the whole point of the thread, and are bent on just trying to make me look bad instead of trying to learn something. Typical forum behavior lately. I'm wasting my breath here.
Neil
I don't think you're wasting your breath (does your keyboard have
respiratory capabilty?)I think there is something in the air-full moon?
Some posters ARE missing the whole point of the thread.I used the word
'maniac' with the same admiration i have for Earl,Keith or Billy Johnson.
Black-Balled described this out well - a knee trembler.It lets your opponent
know he's in uncharted territory.
But personally ,my 'white flags' tend to be thin cuts...if i want a combo
i'll order a pizza...billiard combos scare me.
A very small minority of posters don't seem to 'get it'.They think calling
you a liar or trying to beat you for your watch are reasonable responses.

But the majority recognize the community spirit of your 'what would you
do here' contibutions.
We look forward to them and never fail to learn something.
And the more arguable they are,the more fertile.

steev
06-24-2010, 08:47 AM
A quick note: sorry to everyone in general, and Neil in particular, for being a jerk on this thread.

I have lost the desire to further discuss this layout.

-s

ftgokie
06-24-2010, 09:05 AM
I will say this. Its fun seeing how other people chose to play a table....thats how we all learn. I have learned from this thread...and none of my comments were meant to be disrespectful towards Neil..

Black-Balled
06-24-2010, 09:09 AM
Neil
I don't think you're wasting your breath...
...the same admiration i have for Earl,Keith or Billy Johnson. Black-Balled...


I am honored to be thought of so highly. Huh? There's more?! There's as period? I don't see either!:thumbup:

Black-Balled
06-24-2010, 09:10 AM
Yeah, but what about rail-rail-ball-rail-rail-rail-rail-rail-rail-ball? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dg7_erDujo

WHatever! That was a natural!!!!:eek:
This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 26 seconds

Eric.
06-24-2010, 09:15 AM
I will say this. Its fun seeing how other people chose to play a table....thats how we all learn. I have learned from this thread...and none of my comments were meant to be disrespectful towards Neil..


It seemed like everyone was respectful to Neil. If anything, NEIL started wtih the arrogant down-talk towards everyone else, as well as the name calling bit. From there, it always goes down hill.

Me? I don't doubt that Neil made this out. I just don't agree with his assertion that this is a fairly easy out or one that you should be expecting to make a lot. If Neil feels this out aint that hard, I'm still curious how many times out of 10 that he can make it.


Eric

Cornerman
06-24-2010, 09:23 AM
Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV@

Wow, I didn't realize this thread really took this turn!!!

Okay, here are my real two cents.

Remembering that this is bar box (Diamond or not) with ball-in-hand, I do think top players will go for this out.

Assuming that the tickie on the 3-ball to make the 6-ball is easy, then the whole out seems to hang in the position from the 1-ball to the 2/4 combo. Get good there and you're suppose to go for the runout on a bar table. Get bad there, and you'll be forced to play a safety on the 2-ball (before or after pocketing the 4-ball.

If this were a 9' table, oddly enough, I think the same holds true, but the chances of getting good for the 2/4 suddenly drop, therefore a safety on the 1-balll might be the better choice.

Fred <~~~ said "top players," not me

TATE
06-24-2010, 09:37 AM
This shot is normally struck with running english and with the second object ball not to far from the pocket. The farther from the pocket the more precise the hit needs to be. Rail first, then first object ball, and then to second object ball. If the second ball is fairly tight to the rail the running english will give a little insurance by hitting the rail for the second time and then spinning to the ball.

A unique variation of this shot is when the two balls are frozen to each other with the second ball also frozen to the rail. You strike rail first and then the first ball. The first ball then separates and positions the second ball slightly off the rail and waits for the cue ball to come off the rail for the second time to strike it into the pocket. We need the wei table to show a magnified view of this.

A bonus rep for someone that can diagram this.

From what everybody is describing, this first shot is a simple tickie, right? (A tickie is a rail first carom shot):

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AWaE3BYuy3CCYA4DAMd3EVbi4FBil4GBjO3HBKO4IAMA3PI IC3VYuy3VcAl3kIIC3kbYc3kYmF3kYNg@


Then, there is a possibilty of a time-shot tickie too as you described - is this what you're talking about, Frank?


http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AWYg3BXfw3CCYA4DAMd3EAsk4FBil4GBjO3HBKO4IAMA3PI IC3UWYg3UQum3VXfw3VbRa3VbKmzc3kIIC3kaqu3kYdW3kbRH3 kRUMzc@

Eric.
06-24-2010, 10:05 AM
From what everybody is describing, this first shot is a simple tickie, right? (A tickie is a rail first carom shot):



Actually, Chris, a tickie is a shot where you shoot into a rail first, then carom of a ball, then back into the same rail, then...

But, (I'm no expert), I would think that your first example is close enough to be considered a tickie. The main qualifying trait would be to kick off a rail first, then carom off a ball, then hit something else like a ball of rail (I'm guessing).


Eric >close enough for gov'ment work

dabarbr
06-24-2010, 10:18 AM
From what everybody is describing, this first shot is a simple tickie, right? (A tickie is a rail first carom shot):

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AWaE3BYuy3CCYA4DAMd3EVbi4FBil4GBjO3HBKO4IAMA3PI IC3VYuy3VcAl3kIIC3kbYc3kYmF3kYNg@


Then, there is a possibilty of a time-shot tickie too as you described - is this what you're talking about, Frank?


http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AWYg3BXfw3CCYA4DAMd3EAsk4FBil4GBjO3HBKO4IAMA3PI IC3UWYg3UQum3VXfw3VbRa3VbKmzc3kIIC3kaqu3kYdW3kbRH3 kRUMzc@

Your example is a little more difficult to do because of the timeing involved.
Taking the two balls just like they are but move them to the rail so the the two ball is frozen to the rail and now the shot becomes high percentage.

ftgokie
06-24-2010, 10:21 AM
It seemed like everyone was respectful to Neil. If anything, NEIL started wtih the arrogant down-talk towards everyone else, as well as the name calling bit. From there, it always goes down hill.

Me? I don't doubt that Neil made this out. I just don't agree with his assertion that this is a fairly easy out or one that you should be expecting to make a lot. If Neil feels this out aint that hard, I'm still curious how many times out of 10 that he can make it.


Eric


Im with ya Eric....I would honestly like to hear someone like Bartram, Donnie Mills or any pros' opinions on if they would try this particular table layout in a money game or tournament...I am betting....and yes I would bet money on this..That this particular setup, they would play safe on...but thats just me. I would like to hear a Pro players HONEST opinion on it though

Neil
06-24-2010, 11:15 AM
................

Neil
06-24-2010, 11:25 AM
...............

steev
06-24-2010, 11:28 AM
If you could let this thread die, that would be great. I think we've probably exhausted the potential for meaningful discussion.

You clearly play on nicer and more predictable equipment than I do, I'll say that.

-s

Eric.
06-24-2010, 11:33 AM
It seemed like everyone was respectful to Neil. If anything, NEIL started wtih the arrogant down-talk towards everyone else, as well as the name calling bit. From there, it always goes down hill.
Actually, Eric, you did.
Me? I don't doubt that Neil made this out. I just don't agree with his assertion that this is a fairly easy out or one that you should be expecting to make a lot. Plese show me where I ever said that. You like putting words in my mouth, and then condeming me for it. Please stop doing that, we aren't married. What I DID say, is that the out is not that hard. Not that hard means hard, but not real hard. It does not equate ot easy. If Neil feels this out aint that hard, I'm still curious how many times out of 10 that he can make it. What on earth has that got to do with anything? Do you actually do that everytime you get to the table on a full rack with BIH? "Well, it's less than 70% to run out, so I won't even try, I'll just play safe off the one." I seriously doubt you do. If you are half the player I think you are, it's more like " Not a great chance to run out here, but doable. Where are my safe options if I get in trouble??" Which is what I did. This time, I didn't need any of the safe options, I got out. Tackling one situation at a time. Never had to shoot at a shot that wasn't at least 80% makeable for me. Positions could get tricky, but as long as the ball is made, I still get to shoot and play safe then. I don't play safe just because I MIGHT get out of line. I play safe if I might miss the ball.


Eric

Neil, you seem to want to single me out here, so...

It's semantics, but the person who started to get arrogant, talk down to the others and started the name calling ("be a jerk...") was you. It's documented in this thread, I'm not gonna play he said, she said with you, anyone who wants can go read and be the judge.
*edit- everything was civil until this post: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2477713&postcount=34

Regarding your second comment, by saying "it's not hard" carries a certain meaning. Again, I'm not gonna play semantics with you.

Lastly, what does trying it 10 times prove? It'll show what your percentages are on this runout, and, give you an accurate, concrete assessment of "it's not that hard". If you can make the out 1 out of 10 times (or less), IT IS THAT HARD. I agree that you should attempt the out and play to a planned safe or play safe if you get out of line, but that goes without saying. If you manage to stay in perfect line, the out might not "be that hard", but there are plenty of areas where just getting a lil out of line would be a run stopper.


Eric >not that hard? It is a tough out, for me.

poolplayer2093
06-24-2010, 11:37 AM
Diamond barbox (7'). Had this layout the other nite. What would you do here with BIH? I thought I'd try for the runnout, and got it. I'll show later how I did it. How would you run it?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AXsc1BMEU2CIvU1DSyO1EIdw2FLQj1GVwp2ICQV@

is it just me or is it getting harder to use the cuetable tools? at first i couldn't see what people linked using safari then i updated my safari and it would work. then i couldn't get it to work with safari but it would work with firefox but now it won't. i don't get it?

Neil
06-24-2010, 11:45 AM
...............

TATE
06-24-2010, 12:39 PM
If you could let this thread die, that would be great. I think we've probably exhausted the potential for meaningful discussion.

You clearly play on nicer and more predictable equipment than I do, I'll say that.

-s

Wait! We can't let it die until I figure out what a "Tickie" is.

Chris ----> also thought "leeche nuts" was venereal disease.

Black-Balled
06-24-2010, 12:57 PM
I can't use WEI anymore either...and I am not registering, dammit!

Poolfiend
06-24-2010, 12:58 PM
I just tried this layout on my lunch break. For the record, when I first looked at the layout my first thought was safety with BIH. After trying it, if I saw it again, I would run it out. I made the one ball with perfect shape on my second try.

Made the 2,4 combo and got shape to go into the 3, 6. Broke out the 3, 6 with shape on the three and ran out. 9' diamond.

Since I didn't have to shoot the tickie for the run out I set it up an tried it a few times. Never really quite figured out the rail, ball, rail, ball shot, but I was getting closer. I need more practice. The one ball with shape on the 2, 4 combo was surprisingly easy - even on the 9 footer.

I consider myself a strong B player. Thanks Neil.

TSW
06-24-2010, 01:46 PM
Neil, thanks for posting this. Despite the bad turn the thread took I, and I'm sure many others, appreciate your layouts and your walkthroughs.

The larger point that I take away from this thread is that a situation that looks like a mess at first glance might be less difficult than you think if the problem areas are broken down into a few makeable shots.

Even with the walkthrough I doubt I'd try for the runout in an important game. That could be because I'm a 9-footer player - the 2/4 combo and the ticky/holding the 3 for shape are sufficiently difficult on a 9-footer that I would not risk the runout. Maybe the odds are better on a bar box to the point where it's worth attempting.

ftgokie
06-24-2010, 02:33 PM
OK guys...I tried this layout on a diamond barbox....I ran it out 8x out of 10. So this is pretty much a simple runout..no biggie

" edit....that was a joke"

donny mills
06-24-2010, 06:05 PM
Well me personally I wouldn't try to run out here with a gun on me... But some pros probly would try to run out here. I wont because I try and play using my strengths. The first 2 shots I am kinda weak at.

First shot- Cueball is very close to the one and you have to cut it in the corner and draw it over for the combo. That is hard in my book... I hate those shots where the cue ball is real close! It's kinda like guessing where to aim.

Second shot is the combo which im weak at. I always try to play away from combos. I should really practice them alot.

I'd say it's 50/50 and playing safe or trying to run out is the right shot. Me personally I'm gonna bank the one 2 rails towards the 3 and 6 and most likely get ball in hand. But that's just me- I play to my strengths, and try to stray away from my weaknesses... even if it's the wrong shot sometimes.

Neil
06-24-2010, 06:30 PM
..............

dabarbr
06-24-2010, 06:49 PM
Thanks for the input Donny. I'm curious though, what do you consider real close on the one?? I put the cb about 10" away and just cut it in the corner.

This may explain the reluctance many had to start with the one to the corner. It appears on the wei table that you only have about four or five inches (or less)to place the cue ball in.This will surely make a difference on weather to shoot or play safe. Donny M's statement is true about not being able to deliver a good stroke with the limited space that we see on the wei table.

I, myself wanted to go foward three rails because I believed I had only a small area in which to place the cue ball.

Neil
06-24-2010, 06:58 PM
.................

dabarbr
06-24-2010, 07:13 PM
Frank, look at post #15, and you will see app. where I put the cb. You can put it as far back as you want. I can see where that confusion would surely cause hesitation on shooting the one in and trying to draw it.

Ok, I reviewed that post and it reminded me as to why I would choose to go forward instead of draw. With the pocket so far away, the draw requires too much angle on the one for me. I prefer a much straighter shot with BIH. But if one can do it then it's the right shot.

Either way we appreciate these posts that you put here on AZB. It stimulates our minds and we get to see options that others may have. Keep them coming.

ftgokie
06-24-2010, 08:17 PM
It stimulates our minds and we get to see options that others may have. Keep them coming.

I know I am stimulated