PDA

View Full Version : Tip Hardness Tests


TATE
06-22-2010, 11:41 AM
Here's an interesting hardness test PoolDawg did of all major tip brands. Results are all over the place - I'm not sure what to make of the results:

http://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/the-ultimate-pool-cue-tip-guide

My experience is that some tips break-in to be quite a bit harder than "out of the box". Nonethless, A Talisman Pro "soft" is harder than a Sniper? A Le Pro is about the hardest tip there is? That can't be right.

Chris

(Thanks to my friend Steve for sending me this link.)

peteypooldude
06-22-2010, 12:17 PM
Here's an interesting hardness test PoolDawg did of all major tip brands. Results are all over the place - I'm not sure what to make of the results:

http://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/the-ultimate-pool-cue-tip-guide

My evxperioence is that some tips break in to quite a bit harder than "out of the box". Nonethless, A Talisman Pro "soft" is harder than a Sniper? A Le Pro is about the hardest tip there is? That can't be right.

Chris

(Thanks to my friend Steve for sending me this link.)

I did not read the thread but tip hardness check by a durometer shows consistency from one tip to the next,if you take the tips out of the box the hardness will vary from tip to tip quite a bit,if you put a durometer on Jeffs Milk Duds you will see they vary very little from tip to tip.Hence a more consistent hit ,or the same hit on all his tips,This is a rarity.I have never had Pooldawg8 tips mushroom

mikefeiman
06-22-2010, 12:26 PM
Hi Chris. Thanks for sharing our link. What you're saying is one of the big issues with testing tip hardness in general. Because of the material, there is always going to be variance and with some of the tips, there was quite a bit of variance from tip to tip. The larger the sample size, the more you will be able to smooth out the variance. Ideally, you want to go n=30 on these, but as I mentioned on the page, we only did n=3.

This isn't meant to be an authoritative white paper. Rather, it is simply what we found based on our rudimentary tests (hence the n=3 instead of n=30). As for density vs. hardness, we just used the term (density) that is most widely used within the industry and by our customers in order to reduce confusion. :smile:

joelpope
06-22-2010, 12:38 PM
thanks for the info

would be very interesting to remeasure density after cues have been used for a short while just to see how much they change

I'm thinking that the soft & mediums would move up the scale a bit

poolstar31
06-22-2010, 12:39 PM
Hi Chris. Thanks for sharing our link. What you're saying is one of the big issues with testing tip hardness in general. Because of the material, there is always going to be variance and with some of the tips, there was quite a bit of variance from tip to tip. The larger the sample size, the more you will be able to smooth out the variance. Ideally, you want to go n=30 on these, but as I mentioned on the page, we only did n=3.

This isn't meant to be an authoritative white paper. Rather, it is simply what we found based on our rudimentary tests (hence the n=3 instead of n=30). As for density vs. hardness, we just used the term (density) that is most widely used within the industry and by our customers in order to reduce confusion. :smile:

These results are very misleading. My personal experience regarding tip hardness is as follows:

1) A Kamui Black medium will have VERY little mushrooming if any. I installed several with the same result.

2) I used Lepros for years and after 30 hours of playing( about 4 days for me) the tip looks like an umbrella! A Lepro will mushroom alot. These
are real world hardness results. The Durometer test isnt relavent.

peteypooldude
06-22-2010, 12:57 PM
These results are very misleading. My personal experience regarding tip hardness is as follows:

1) A Kamui Black medium will have VERY little mushrooming if any. I installed several with the same result.

2) I used Lepros for years and after 30 hours of playing( about 4 days for me) the tip looks like an umbrella! A Lepro will mushroom alot. These
are real world hardness results. The Durometer test isnt relavent.

No offense but I do not agree,you make this sound like law.Now here is my honest opinion,I have played with them all,and I cut a kamui off to put a pooldawg8 $4 tip on,they are not le pro tips.And how is tip hardness not relevant,the tips I use do not mushroom after months on end and I just chalk them.No picking and no sanding.Same hit month after month.

mikefeiman
06-22-2010, 01:03 PM
Thank you for the feedback Poolstar31. Respectfully, this is why we put a disclaimer at the bottom of the page. To give you an example of the variance in hardness measurements, if you look at Tiger's website, they have the following durometer ratings:

Everest: 95
Emerald: 96
Sniper: 96
Dynamite: 97
Laminated: 94/95/97
Icebreaker: 99

http://www.tigerproducts.com/store/home.php?cat=108

This would lead one to believe that an Everest tip is almost as hard as an Icebreaker tip, which is clearly not the case. If I added another half pound of pressure though, I would get ratings of 90+ for every tip. There are a number of variables at work here, but keep in mind that we are not engineers. We were curious, so we ran some tests. We thought it was interesting, so we reported the results. Whether the results are worthwhile is purely in the eye of the beholder. :smile:

TATE
06-22-2010, 01:04 PM
Hi Chris. Thanks for sharing our link. What you're saying is one of the big issues with testing tip hardness in general. Because of the material, there is always going to be variance and with some of the tips, there was quite a bit of variance from tip to tip. The larger the sample size, the more you will be able to smooth out the variance. Ideally, you want to go n=30 on these, but as I mentioned on the page, we only did n=3.

This isn't meant to be an authoritative white paper. Rather, it is simply what we found based on our rudimentary tests (hence the n=3 instead of n=30). As for density vs. hardness, we just used the term (density) that is most widely used within the industry and by our customers in order to reduce confusion. :smile:

I think it's a great idea. Throwing out the extremes, if nothing else we have a scale to say what the approximate initial hardness is of a given tip at a certain pressure.

To me, this testing also shows a discrepancy in description from manufacturer ro manufacturer. I think anybody buying a tip based on the description of "soft, medium, or hard" should look at your chart.

Maybe manufacturers could be convinced to test their own tips this way and come up with a "standard set" of test and descriptions at a certain pressure at a certain thickness- something like this:

70 or under - soft
70 - 75 medium
75-80 medium hard
80-85 hard
85+ extra hard
90 + jump/break

Chris

poolstar31
06-22-2010, 01:13 PM
I just cant figure out how a Lepro or Triangle can test out as harder than a Kamui Black Medium. The Lepro and Triangle will mushroom alot while the Kamui Black medium wont. I dont get it.....

Shaft
06-22-2010, 01:13 PM
Thanks, PoolDawg! This is long overdue and greatly appreciated. Please bring more of the same. Quantification tests are needed in many aspects of the equipment. (Let's look at shaft flexibility next.)

(Anybody disagree with the results, get your own durometer, a set of tips, and share your results. Otherwise, I don't care what you THINK about hardness. Get an objective tool and measure it.)

PS: I agree that hardness is not density, but I won't quibble about this valuable gift.

poolstar31
06-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Quantification tests are needed in many aspects of the equipment. (Let's look at shaft flexibility next.)

Thanks, PoolDawg! This is long overdue and greatly appreciated. Please bring more of the same.

(Anybody disagree with the results, get your own durometer, a set of tips, and share your results. Otherwise, I don't care what you THINK about hardness. Get an objective tool and measure it.)PS: I agree that hardness is not density, but I won't quibble about this valuable gift.


I will believe my actual experience of playing with these tips many many times over a Durometer test.

I think 30 hours of beating on a tip proves more than a durometer test. It is real world testing on a cue, hitting balls.

Shaft
06-22-2010, 01:24 PM
I will believe my actual experience of playing with these tips many many times over a Durometer test.

I think 30 hours of beating on a tip proves more than a durometer test. It is real world testing on a cue, hitting balls.

I think your point is "a durometer test does not predict mushrooming." I can go along with that. That does not make a durometer test irrelevant for all purposes.

Maybe someone will devise a "mushroom test." Make it repeatable, quantifiable.

poolstar31
06-22-2010, 01:37 PM
I think your point is "a durometer test does not predict mushrooming." I can go along with that. That does not make a durometer test irrelevant for all purposes.

Maybe someone will devise a "mushroom test." Make it repeatable, quantifiable.

Thats fair enough. I have always associated the amount of mushrooming with the hardness of the tip. In my experience, the softer the hit of the tip, the more mushrooming.

peteypooldude
06-22-2010, 03:10 PM
I will believe my actual experience of playing with these tips many many times over a Durometer test.

I think 30 hours of beating on a tip proves more than a durometer test. It is real world testing on a cue, hitting balls.

I will make a deal with you,pm me your address and I will send you one of my tips that I bought from pooldawg8,just put it on a cue and play all the hours that you wish,if it is not exactly as I claimed,as in no mushrooming,no shape loss then you just do not refund me the price I paid for it.I am that confident in them and stand nothing to gain

Grilled Cheese
06-22-2010, 03:39 PM
I'm not surprised with the results overall, nor do I see any major anomalies with the exception of Triumph. Unfortunate to see such variance. That only leaves Triangle and Elk Master as their consistent, know-what-you-get tips.

LePro's are notoriously inconsistent. They can range anywhere from a medium to very hard.

Water Buffalo tips aren't like the old ones that used to be one of the hardest tips you can get.

I could care less about layered tips. Tried nearly all of them. They're hype and nothing more. It's the industries way of getting $15 or more for what used to be $0.25.

TATE
06-22-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm not surprised with the results overall, nor do I see any major anomalies with the exception of Triumph. Unfortunate to see such variance. That only leaves Triangle and Elk Master as their consistent, know-what-you-get tips.

LePro's are notoriously inconsistent. They can range anywhere from a medium to very hard.

Water Buffalo tips aren't like the old ones that used to be one of the hardest tips you can get.

I could care less about layered tips. Tried nearly all of them. They're hype and nothing more. It's the industries way of getting $15 or more for what used to be $0.25.

What have you been using lately? I haven't used a one piece in a long time.

With my current system, the layered tips seem to last me an eternity with very little maintainence. I've been using Everest and Sniper's for years. I would say two years of regular play at least is average.

What I do is break the tip in, then trim it down to where about 4 layers are showing on the sides (plus the dome). Once the sides are shaped once, that's pretty much it. To shape the sides, I just use double sided tape and 220 - 400 grit sand paper on a counter, carefully turning the side of the tip with a little pressure until it's flat with the ferrule, then I use a tip burnishing tool to seal the sides. This thinned out tip is more resistent to demlamination and is very firm.

I just scruff once in a while and the tip lasts for years. The broken in Everest, sanded down and broken in, is quite a bit harder than out of the box.

They cost more but the durability is unreal - even though there's only 1/4" of tip left when I'm done.

Chris

manwon
06-22-2010, 04:26 PM
Here's an interesting hardness test PoolDawg did of all major tip brands. Results are all over the place - I'm not sure what to make of the results:

http://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/the-ultimate-pool-cue-tip-guide

My experience is that some tips break-in to be quite a bit harder than "out of the box". Nonethless, A Talisman Pro "soft" is harder than a Sniper? A Le Pro is about the hardest tip there is? That can't be right.

Chris

(Thanks to my friend Steve for sending me this link.)



Hello Chris, that is pretty interesting and it is in my opinion mostly accurate. However, I also use a durometer to test all my tips and one thing I have found is that no tip currently being marketed is consistent, almost all tips even if they are from same batch will vary some (Between 1-10 on the hardness scale.

I test and press every tip I put on some ones cue and yes the scale they are using is pretty accurate according to what I find when testing tips. I think that if you are going to install tips you must have some method or equipment to accurately check their hardness.

Take care Chris

TATE
06-22-2010, 04:46 PM
I test and press every tip I put on some ones cue and yes the scale they are using is pretty accurate according to what I find when testing tips. I think that if you are going to install tips you must have some method or equipment to accurately check their hardness.

Take care Chris

Craig,

That's good information, thank you. I didn't realize that some cue maker's test the tips the same way but I can sure see why.

What do you look for when testing tips? Is there a particular hardness number you want after they are pressed? What thickness do you usually use installing a tip? After you press a tip, how much harder does it usually get?


Chris

joelpope
06-22-2010, 04:52 PM
well stated... "just the facts please"

manwon
06-22-2010, 08:00 PM
Craig,

That's good information, thank you. I didn't realize that some cue maker's test the tips the same way but I can sure see why.

What do you look for when testing tips? Is there a particular hardness number you want after they are pressed? What thickness do you usually use installing a tip? After you press a tip, how much harder does it usually get?


Chris


Chris, I check the hardness the before I press tips and then I press them. The reason I press them is to break them in so that when new they will not mushroom as much and so they feel more solid like a tip that has some play on it.

The thickness of a tip all depends upon how thick it is to start with and how thick the player wants it when I am finished. I have people who want every tip installed at least half it's original thickness and I have others who only want the tip rounded off, it is nothing more than personal preference, I don't think it really makes a difference.

Generally when I press tips I am not trying to make them harder only more compressed so that the customer has to do less maintenance like I said above. However, I am working on a resin impregnated leather tip for breaking, that is as hard a Phenolic Tip except it is all leather. These tips are pressed for extreme hardness after they are soaked in my secret solution, and then after pressing these tips they are like cement.!!!!!:smile:

It is good to hear from you Chris, take care Buddy.

poolstar31
06-23-2010, 09:44 AM
I will make a deal with you,pm me your address and I will send you one of my tips that I bought from pooldawg8,just put it on a cue and play all the hours that you wish,if it is not exactly as I claimed,as in no mushrooming,no shape loss then you just do not refund me the price I paid for it.I am that confident in them and stand nothing to gain


Thanks for the offer! But I am happy with the Kamui Black I use.
I wasnt saying your tip wasnt good. I only stated that a Lepro will mushroom more than a Kamui Black M which is odd since Pooldog states that the Lepros test harder than Kamui Black M on the Durometer.

peteypooldude
06-23-2010, 09:54 AM
Thanks for the offer! But I am happy with the Kamui Black I use.
I wasnt saying your tip wasnt good. I only stated that a Lepro will mushroom more than a Kamui Black M which is odd since Pooldog states that the Lepros test harder than Kamui Black M on the Durometer.

No problem,thanks for the reply
Peteypooldude

jrt30004
06-23-2010, 11:09 AM
i don't own any measuring equipment and really don't care to do any tests by buying a bunch of tips i don't need and won't use. i say this however, i have always used lepro tips and have had a samsara jump/break tip on my break cue for a few months now. there is no way you can tell me that lepro tips are some of the hardest tips out there. absolutely no way they are harder than the samsara. when i chalk the samsara it almost sounds like chalking phenolic. and lepros mushroom. period. maybe one out of 15 won't but they do, for the most part, require a lot of maintenance. i have been playing pool off and on since the late 80's and since my first meucci i have always had lepro tips. that's my first test. i break a ton and and can't normally jump with a full cue. after a few months now i haven't touched the samsara and i can almost jump with my 21oz. players break cue. that thing is like stone. that's my second test.

ratcues
06-23-2010, 01:33 PM
I think it's a great idea. Throwing out the extremes, if nothing else we have a scale to say what the approximate initial hardness is of a given tip at a certain pressure.

To me, this testing also shows a discrepancy in description from manufacturer ro manufacturer. I think anybody buying a tip based on the description of "soft, medium, or hard" should look at your chart.

Maybe manufacturers could be convinced to test their own tips this way and come up with a "standard set" of test and descriptions at a certain pressure at a certain thickness- something like this:

70 or under - soft
70 - 75 medium
75-80 medium hard
80-85 hard
85+ extra hard
90 + jump/break

Chris

Chris, Muellers has had a chart just like you described for about ten years now. I was the one that tested all of the tips. Non-layered tips, I tested 100 of each type to get my numbers. Layered, I did 25 of each. I've fallen behind in the past couple of years so I do have Kamuis or Emeralds up yet. I'll get them up as soon as I get some time.:rolleyes:

http://www.poolndarts.com/71-Tips/

TATE
06-23-2010, 02:43 PM
Chris, Muellers has had a chart just like you described for about ten years now. I was the one that tested all of the tips. Non-layered tips, I tested 100 of each type to get my numbers. Layered, I did 25 of each. I've fallen behind in the past couple of years so I do have Kamuis or Emeralds up yet. I'll get them up as soon as I get some time.:rolleyes:

http://www.poolndarts.com/71-Tips/

Ryan,

Wow, I've not seen that before. It's pretty amazing how close we both came to each other on our hardness scale to descibe the tips. Mine was just a whipped up estimate based on the tests Pooldawg did - your's is probably a lot more accurate.

Chris

TATE
06-23-2010, 02:53 PM
i don't own any measuring equipment and really don't care to do any tests by buying a bunch of tips i don't need and won't use. i say this however, i have always used lepro tips and have had a samsara jump/break tip on my break cue for a few months now. there is no way you can tell me that lepro tips are some of the hardest tips out there. absolutely no way they are harder than the samsara. when i chalk the samsara it almost sounds like chalking phenolic. and lepros mushroom. period. maybe one out of 15 won't but they do, for the most part, require a lot of maintenance. i have been playing pool off and on since the late 80's and since my first meucci i have always had lepro tips. that's my first test. i break a ton and and can't normally jump with a full cue. after a few months now i haven't touched the samsara and i can almost jump with my 21oz. players break cue. that thing is like stone. that's my second test.

I agree - I was shocked that a LePro would test as hard as a Samara, which is the hardest non-phenolic tip I've used.

I can't even imagine a Samsara tip mushrooming, even at full length.

As far as combination jump/break tips go, I have found the Samsara to be the best one.

Chris