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marek
06-23-2010, 05:22 AM
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek

allenjktx
06-23-2010, 05:35 AM
"the legal object ball without pocketing a ball" You were correct, the legal object ball is refering to the lowest numbered ball on the table. You needed to highlight the next four words also.

jay helfert
06-23-2010, 05:53 AM
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So I better not comment on these "rules" for Ten Ball.

marek
06-23-2010, 05:58 AM
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So I better not comment on these "rules" for Ten Ball.

I see you have the same view on the clarity of 10b rules. But tell me Jay: do you know how this situation should be viewed? What is the right call? Thx

marek
06-23-2010, 06:01 AM
"the legal object ball without pocketing a ball" You were correct, the legal object ball is refering to the lowest numbered ball on the table. You needed to highlight the next four words also.

Well, if the legal object ball is refering to the lowest numbered ball on the table my opponent was right, highlighting the next four words would help my opponent view!!! :D

KoolKat9Lives
06-23-2010, 06:29 AM
You kind of infer that the tourney was using WPA rules but you don't state for sure. There are many rules for 10 ball. Please clarify the rules governing this tourney.

TX Express?
WPA?
SBE?

marek
06-23-2010, 06:31 AM
You kind of infer that the tourney was using WPA rules but you don't state for sure. There are many rules for 10 ball. Please clarify the rules governing this tourney.

TX Express?
WPA?
SBE?


I am from Europe, we play by EPBF rules which are the same as WPA.

hang-the-9
06-23-2010, 09:24 AM
The way I view called safes in 10 ball is the same as in 8 ball. You may pocket a ball while calling a safe, and the other guy has to shoot from where it lays. The accidental pocketing of the 6 should not change anything. If he called the othe ball, missed and made the 6 and left you hooked, you would have the option of passing the shot.

dareads
06-23-2010, 10:11 AM
(See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

From what I read there, you were correct. He didn't make an intended ball but made a "Wrongfully Pocketed ball" which according to rule 9.7, you would still have the option.

KoolKat9Lives
06-23-2010, 10:15 AM
(See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

From what I read there, you were correct. He didn't make an intended ball but made a "Wrongfully Pocketed ball" which according to rule 9.7, you would still ahve the option.


That's the way I read this somewhat confusing 'legalese' too. And without reading it I'd have believed you were correct also under WPA rules.

However, I'm not 100% sure. Surely someone will post a definitive ruling.

BTW, :thumbup: to both players for not sweating it and understanding the circumstances.

jay helfert
06-23-2010, 10:24 AM
I see you have the same view on the clarity of 10b rules. But tell me Jay: do you know how this situation should be viewed? What is the right call? Thx

First of all, I don't think you should be able to call "safe" in Ten Ball. Kind of destroys the nature of the game. After that everything else is irrelevant. Just a bunch of marks on a page. Now do you want to know how I really feel? :grin:

cigardave
06-23-2010, 10:30 AM
(See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

From what I read there, you were correct. He didn't make an intended ball but made a "Wrongfully Pocketed ball" which according to rule 9.7, you would still ahve the option.

I agree with dareads.

The intent of the WPA 10-ball rules is to minimize the luck factor in a rotation game. It does a pretty good job.

Although the rules could be clearer (to add to 9.6 the inadvertant pocketing of other than the "legal object ball" after having called a safety), clearly the intent of the WPA 10-ball rule set is the opponent has the option of making his opponent shoot again.

Qualifier... this is just my opinion and I am not a recognized referee.

ScottR
06-23-2010, 11:04 AM
Like others, I am not a certified ref, but . . . . .

I side with your opponent. He executed a legal safety and inadvertently pocketed another ball. Safe is good, your shot.

If you read rule 9.7, it says "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball....". I underlined the "and" because I read that you have to do both for the rule to be invoked. And your opponent did not do the first part - he legally hit the lowest ball.

Scott <<== imho

dareads
06-23-2010, 11:12 AM
If you read rule 9.7, it says "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball....". I underlined the "and" because I read that you have to do both for the rule to be invoked. And your opponent did not do the first part - he legally hit the lowest ball.

Scott <<== imho

My only problem with this logic is that if the player didn't hit the lowest ball first then it would be a foul and result in BIH (or kitchen, not sure).

SKUNKBOY
06-23-2010, 11:26 AM
Like others, I am not a certified ref, but . . . . .

I side with your opponent. He executed a legal safety and inadvertently pocketed another ball. Safe is good, your shot.

If you read rule 9.7, it says "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball....". I underlined the "and" because I read that you have to do both for the rule to be invoked. And your opponent did not do the first part - he legally hit the lowest ball.

Scott <<== imho

I'm thinking the phrase "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket," could be read as he misses his called shot...meaning he called the five in the side but did not make the five in the side.

dareads would be correct, if he didn't hit the lowest ball on the table first, he would give up BIH.

L8R...Ken

Bob Jewett
06-23-2010, 02:17 PM
As I read the rules, any time the player pockets a ball without pocketing the called ball, he may be asked to shoot again.

The rules of 10 ball need clarification, badly.

cigardave
06-23-2010, 02:43 PM
I would add the following for clarification...
Any time the player pockets a ball without pocketing the called ball, he may be asked to shoot again. This includes pocketing a ball when having called a safety.

DogsPlayingPool
06-23-2010, 02:53 PM
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek

You are correct. Since he was playing a safety, rule 9.6 is administered. The circumstances in rule 9.6 do not apply to your situation (that is, he did not pocket the one ball). But rule 9.6 goes on to state that rule 9.7 also applies during a safety. And rule 9.7 states basically that if any ball goes down other than a called ball in a called pocket, the incoming shooter has the option to give back the table.

Bob Jewett
06-23-2010, 02:54 PM
I would add the following for clarification...
I would not add that clarification. "Any time" is general enough.

The section on calling safe is a problem, though. Why would anyone ever want to call a safety? So far as I see there is no advantage in calling safe. If you don't pocket a ball, it is the same as if you had missed. If you do pocket a ball, your opponent can have you shoot again. You may as well always call a ball. Call the 10 in the pocket it will most likely reach if an earthquake happens.

Or maybe I'm just reading the rules wrong.

TATE
06-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek

Marek,

If you're going by WPA rules, if the legal object ball is not pocketed in the called pocket, but it, or any other ball, is pocketed elsewhere, then the shot passes to the oppenent, and the incoming player can choose to shoot, or pass it back.

That's the way we played the Mezz 10 ball and it worked fine.

Calling "safe" only is important to clearly indicate to your opponent that you are not calling anything. It's probably better to just call something.

Chris

Ps. worst way to play 10 ball is to allow slop - then you may as well play 9 ball and get it over with faster.

mcmlb55
06-23-2010, 06:50 PM
I see it as if your opponent calls safe, and executes a legal safe, then slops in a ball, he cannot continue shooting and passes control. You then do not (or should not, i feel) have the option to pass control back. Because your opponent called safe on the specified object ball (the lowest #ed ball), he would have to accidentally have made that ball for you to have the option of maintaining or conceding control. If he were to call the pocket and slop in another ball, then, idk. its up to if the rules were to be silly enough to give the non shooting player the option, or to allow the shooter to keep shooting. I think some ten ball tourney's rules are over complicated.

marek
06-24-2010, 12:11 AM
The rules of 10 ball need clarification, badly.

This is the best reply in this thread so far.....which is sad...

marek
06-24-2010, 12:23 AM
Well, so far the conclusion is that there is no clear answer, only different opinions, even Jay is not really sure (except for the fact that the actual WPA rules of 10b are pretty f**cked up which I totally agree with). I am going to bring this issue to official EPBF referee who is a good friend of mine, I will let you know the result.

mjantti
06-24-2010, 02:57 AM
I would say, that even though there seems to be a hole in the 10-ball rules which Marek brought up, there is a way to interpret the rules to clarify this.

The problem lies in the term "legal object ball", which imho is not 100% always the lowest numbered ball on the table. The requirement to hit the lowest numbered ball on the table is in the beginning of the rules. I'd say the "legal object ball" means any ball on the table with emphasis on the world "legal" meaning that the requirement to hit lowest numbered ball on the table has been met. When you think of it this way, the sentence in 9.6

"However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent."

makes sense, because now it covers all ball instead of just the lowest numbered ball on the table.

Greets,
Mikko, official EPBF referee

Note: this is not the official interpretation from EPBF, just my opinion. I've gone through the rules word-by-word with EPBF/WPA officials twice so I know something I'm talking about :)

marek
06-24-2010, 03:00 AM
This came from my friend Mikko (EPBF official referee):

"I would say that even though in rule 9.6 the "legal object ball" refers to the lowest numbered ball on the table, I'd say it's presumed that a "legal object ball" is something you are trying to pocket, meaning that it can be another ball than the lowest numbered ball on the table. So, the phrase in 9.6 indicates that the incoming player has the option to shoot or make the original shooter shoot again. The requirement to hit a specific ball on the table is written in the beginning of the rules. "Legal" object ball means any ball on the table and the "legal" emphasizes that a lowest numbered ball has been hit first."

Well, it tells me that I was right to return the shot to my opponent and will use the ruling in the future as well.

Edit: Mikko was faster than me... :D

GADawg
06-24-2010, 06:48 AM
I would say, that even though there seems to be a hole in the 10-ball rules which Marek brought up, there is a way to interpret the rules to clarify this.

The problem lies in the term "legal object ball", which imho is not 100% always the lowest numbered ball on the table. The requirement to hit the lowest numbered ball on the table is in the beginning of the rules. I'd say the "legal object ball" means any ball on the table with emphasis on the world "legal" meaning that the requirement to hit lowest numbered ball on the table has been met. When you think of it this way, the sentence in 9.6

"However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent."
makes sense, because now it covers all ball instead of just the lowest numbered ball on the table.

Greets,
Mikko, official EPBF referee

Note: this is not the official interpretation from EPBF, just my opinion. I've gone through the rules word-by-word with EPBF/WPA officials twice so I know something I'm talking about :)

Mikko - I would agree with youexcept for one grammatical techicality.

The rule portion you quoted says "THE legal object ball" with the word THE implying that there is only one legal object ball to be pocketed for the purposes of this rule. If on the other hand it said "A legal object ball; then it could be interpreted as you say..

Clarification is needed from the Rule Gods, that is for sure

JE54
06-24-2010, 07:22 AM
Subscribing to the thread. I'd like to know the answer.

hang-the-9
06-24-2010, 07:40 AM
The only logical "safe" call would be, if I call a safe, no matter what I make or miss, as long as I hit the lowest ball, the oponent shoots from where I left him. If I call a safe in 8-ball, I can pocket the ball I'm shooting at, and just turn the table over to the opponent.

They want to take out the luck in 10-ball, so if you go for a shot, miss and leave the guy hooked, then the other guy can make you shoot again. If you call a safe, nothing you make counts but the other guy can't make you shoot again.

Almost every time I see 10-ball played the only rule I see is "no 10 on the break", sometimes. People get fed up with trying to sort out the rules and just play by 9-ball rules.

mjantti
06-24-2010, 11:21 AM
Mikko - I would agree with youexcept for one grammatical techicality.

The rule portion you quoted says "THE legal object ball" with the word THE implying that there is only one legal object ball to be pocketed for the purposes of this rule. If on the other hand it said "A legal object ball; then it could be interpreted as you say..

Clarification is needed from the Rule Gods, that is for sure

I'm afraid you're right. But then if the ruling is unclear because of certain wording and a grammatical technicality, I'd say we'd stick to the fact that there is should be no misunderstanding what the rule is trying to say: when playing safe, it doesn't matter which ball goes in, if we are talking about balls or object balls and legal object balls; if something goes down on a safety, the opponent has always the choice of choosing which player is to continue. Too bad the wording on the rule doesn't cover all the situations as Marek pointed in the first place.

I know there are ppl willing to split hairs here (I'm usually one of them :D) but I think it's very clear what the rules are trying to say.

I know that many players don't like the 10-ball rules. Actually they are very easy if you know a few guidelines. It's just if you hate that slop shots don't count and two-way shots aren't there, of course you're bashing the rules. I think the guidelines of the WPA 10-ball rules are excellent, except on wording with this case perhaps being the prime example on that. Playing slop shot 10-ball with 9-ball rules plus an extra ball just because the loudest ones don't like the WPA rules is just stupid. IMHO.

DogsPlayingPool
06-24-2010, 12:56 PM
I wouldn't call the idea of playing 10 Ball with 9 Ball rules stupid. I get what you are saying about slop, 2-way shots, and all that. And I agree with you that 10 Ball should be a call shot game.

But there is a legitimate reason to play what is essentially 9 Ball, but with 10 balls. For those that don't have a problem with the luck factor in 9 Ball it does remedy the problems inherent with the 9 Ball rack and break.

My problem with playing 10 Ball this way is that it could become the standard and culturally dominate the game of 10 Ball to where call shot 10 Ball fades away. My feeling is that if you want to play 9 Ball rules but eliminate the breaking issues then rack 10 balls and after the break when the balls come to rest take the 10 ball off the table and play 9 ball. If the 10 ball happens to go down on the break it counts towards the breaker getting to stay at the table. The 9 ball would be placed in the center "money ball" position and the 10 ball can be racked anywhere since there is no yet discovered dead shot in the 10 ball rack. Or specify that the 10 gets racked in the same specific location every rack (like behind the one or something).

Let's call it 9.5 Ball.

I like the idea that 10 Ball and 9 Ball are two different games. Though I may prefer 10 Ball I don't hate 9 Ball at all aside from the issues with the break. I want these 2 different games to continue and I would not like to see true 10 Ball get cobbled up by 9 Ball rules is all.

mjantti
06-24-2010, 01:20 PM
I understand perfectly what you are saying and I almost completely agree, very wise words, tap tap tap. But I would say that if we have a problem in 9-ball, we shouldn't try to fix it by changing to another game and then playing it like 9-ball. There is a problem in 9-ball and it's definitely the break, but we should concentrate on fixing that somehow, I don't like the current solution. Let 10-ball be a different game with the call shot and with all it's pros and cons it creates. I really like the call shot 10-ball, even more than slop shot 10-ball played 9-ball style. I really wouldn't like to see the "traditional" 9-ball to be pushed away to be replaced by 10-ball (any rules). I like traditions, my favourite game is 14.1 and occasionally 1pocket, you see ;)

Dumozi
08-26-2010, 03:54 AM
So, does this mean that as far as WPA rules are concerned, there is no point having the safety rule at all? :confused:

Dumozi
08-26-2010, 03:56 AM
Same conversation going on at www.cueball.tv

http://www.cueball.tv/forum/topics/10-ball-rules?x=1&id=2250921:Topic:32336&page=1#comments