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Holly
06-23-2010, 01:06 PM
Yesterday we sent out a press release announcing the new Advanced Division in the BCA Pool League. Below is a link to the entire story on the front / home page of AZBilliards.

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=7734


Feel free to email me at holly@playcsipool.com with any questions you may have.

All the best,
Holly

Eric.
06-23-2010, 01:17 PM
Yesterday we sent out a press release announcing the new Advanced Division in the BCA Pool League. Below is a link to the entire story on the front / home page of AZBilliards.

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=7734


Feel free to email me at holly@playcsipool.com with any questions you may have.

All the best,
Holly

Does this mean that BCA is doing away with the "Players Member" division?


Eric

Holly
06-23-2010, 01:41 PM
Does this mean that BCA is doing away with the "Players Member" division?


Eric
Hi Eric,

Yes and No. A player can still join as a Player Member, but starting with the 2011 BCAPL Nationals we will not have separate Player Member divisions, but instead they will compete in the Open, Advanced, Master or Grand Master Singles based on their performance at 2005-2010 BCAPL Nationals or known ability.

All new Player Members starting from June 1, 2010 will minimally be placed into the Advanced division. Some new Player Members, based on known ability, may be catagorized either as a Master or Grand Master. Should a new Player Member feel they sincerely should be in the Open or lower division than placed, they can write to us at CSI for review.

The Player Membership is a great alternative for players who are not in the position to play in league due to remoteness of location or schedule conflicts for example. In addition to the being able to play in the BCAPL Nationals, there are many state and regional events that also allow Player Members to participate. The Southwest Regional Championships coming up Sept. 1-5 in Arizona for one will allow Player Members to compete. The Southwest Regional will be the first regional BCAPL sanctioned and produced event that will be using the new Advanced catagory along with the Open and Master level.

For a list of all BCAPL / CSI upcoming events please visit:

http://playbca.com/Events/UPCOMINGEVENTS.aspx

:) Holly

Mr Hoppe
06-23-2010, 01:45 PM
Does this mean that BCA is doing away with the "Players Member" division?


Eric

What she said ... :)
Mr H

NewStroke
06-23-2010, 01:56 PM
Holly,

How does this compare to APA Masters?
Do you think sandbagging will be an issue?
If someone joined the new BCAPL division and they left to go to the APA, would they automatically be a 7?

Thanks

:)

Holly
06-23-2010, 02:01 PM
Holly,

How does this compare to APA Masters?
Do you think sandbagging will be an issue?
If someone joined the new BCAPL division and they left to go to the APA, would they automatically be a 7?

Thanks

:)

Thanks for your question, but honestly they do not quite equate here. We base the Open, Advanced, Master and Grand Master catagories on the results of a person's performance at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships, and well researched known ability from other tournament results. It is rare for someone to sandbag at a tournament. That is actually where a player's best ability tends to come to the forefront. Not a consideration or as much of an issue if at all in this situation.

Holly :)

NewStroke
06-23-2010, 02:03 PM
Thanks for your question, but honestly they do not quite equate here. We base the Open, Advanced, Master and Grand Master catagories on the results of a person's performance at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships, and well researched known ability from other tournament results. It is rare for someone to sandbag at a tournament. That is actually where a player's best ability tends to come to the forefront. Not a consideration or as much of an issue if at all in this situation.

Holly :)

Sorry was just kidding after all the APA posts lately :)

Holly
06-23-2010, 02:27 PM
Sorry was just kidding after all the APA posts lately :)

:) ya got me...good one
lol

tucson9ball
06-23-2010, 02:48 PM
I think this is long over due. It's great to have another division for those who are good open players but can't quite cash in the Masters.

akaTrigger
06-23-2010, 02:53 PM
So, since I am a Team Master I have to be moved up to this new division? WOW. Looks like I will be sending in a petition, as the press release says we can do.

akaTrigger
06-23-2010, 03:07 PM
Also, how does this affect Open teams? Do we just go by the previous rules of Master players and Team Master Players and don't take into account Advanced Players?

Holly
06-23-2010, 03:11 PM
So, since I am a Team Master I have to be moved up to this new division? WOW. Really??

Hiya M,

The request for review of a player's rating is: email Bill Stock at bills@playcsipool.com.

:)
Holly

akaTrigger
06-23-2010, 03:20 PM
Hiya M,

The request for review of a player's rating is: email Bill Stock at bills@playcsipool.com.

:)
Holly

Thank you, Holly. Miss you, BTW!

Holly
06-23-2010, 03:43 PM
We are discussing how to incorporate the new Advanced division as it pertains to Scotch and Teams. Should have the release on that information soon.

:) Still hope to get to Texas this year to visit and play.

cuetip2
06-23-2010, 04:00 PM
Hi Holly, i sent bill a email, but as you are all busy I never heard back. What about senior and supers that don't have a bca league to play in. thanks Don

watchez
06-23-2010, 04:12 PM
Want to increase the division play - You should have 3 divisions

Trophy teams - Can consist of anyone (if SVB and his pro friends want to play to win a trophy, so be it)

Open teams can only have Open players. Not an Advanced or Master player to be found.

Master teams can have anyone but limited to only one Grand Master and also must have one Advanced or Open player that plays each round for their team - all of this minus someone who is a top 64 pro .

Foreign countries can not have National teams. Foreign countries, to qualify, must have more than a global league that encompasses their entire country.

If you use my ideas, send me back the $500 entry fee I burned for our Master Team last year.

Want to give me a job, give me an email where to send my resume and salary requirements.

renard
06-23-2010, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the news!

Holly
06-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Hi Holly, i sent bill a email, but as you are all busy I never heard back. What about senior and supers that don't have a bca league to play in. thanks Don

Don, when did you send the email? I asked Bill and he said he hasn't received an email recently from someone named Don. Can you please resend or email to me at holly@playcsipool.com and will make sure he receives it.

Age is never an issue :) Seniors (age 55+ for men and 50+ for women) and Super Seniors (65+ for men) that are not able to play in a league can join the BCAPL as a Player Member. If determined they are Open level, then they can play in the Sr. or Super Sr. singles division in those instances. If determined they are truly an Advanced, Master or Grand Master level player they will need to play in those respective singles divisions.

Hope that helps.

Bill S
06-23-2010, 04:54 PM
Also, how does this affect Open teams? Do we just go by the previous rules of Master players and Team Master Players and don't take into account Advanced Players?

We are working on the team criteria now. The BCAPL will have the team answers on Tueday, June 29th. Stay tuned.

Bill Stock
CueSports International
BCA Pool League

akaTrigger
06-23-2010, 05:57 PM
We are working on the team criteria now. The BCAPL will have the team answers on Tueday, June 29th. Stay tuned.

Bill Stock
CueSports International
BCA Pool League

Thanks, Bill! You guys and gals are always so helpful!

1on1pooltournys
06-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Want to increase the division play - You should have 3 divisions

Trophy teams - Can consist of anyone (if SVB and his pro friends want to play to win a trophy, so be it)

Open teams can only have Open players. Not an Advanced or Master player to be found.

Master teams can have anyone but limited to only one Grand Master and also must have one Advanced or Open player that plays each round for their team - all of this minus someone who is a top 64 pro .

Foreign countries can not have National teams. Foreign countries, to qualify, must have more than a global league that encompasses their entire country.

If you use my ideas, send me back the $500 entry fee I burned for our Master Team last year.

Want to give me a job, give me an email where to send my resume and salary requirements.


Watchez is dead on here...

4 divisions is too much....

So what if a player gets in the open division that should maybe be a master...he has to earn his spot in other divisions...

Do you know how tough it is to beat 1000+ players?? A top pro might not finish in the top 32 with the way you have the races and formats designed.

I will also send in my resume along with watchez!! ;)

Duane Tuula
06-25-2010, 01:01 AM
I sincerely appreciate all the effort that the BCAPL has put in since 2005. However, with the master teams and singles already decreasing what do you expect to happen with the new advanced division and moving players "down" who were previously rated as a master???

I'm very confused about your ultimate goal with this move. Anyone with a clue understands the detriment of handicapped tourneys. Having a new division "smells" of the same. Seriously, I know many players between the current divisions. Maybe create a few more divisons? The GM division is already a sham IMO. Mark's original statement was "anyone who is not in the pro event" can play in the GM division. Seems that has changed dramatically.

Even if you choose to make a move how can you not have the foresight to have all the questions answered in advance? It sounds more like a "fly by the seat of your pants" decision. I seem to recall the last second "let's change the sanction fee" last year after summer leagues are already advertised and starting.

Checking out the gm/master/advanced lists online is quite a joke too. Players added, players on both lists, nicknames galore... kinda ugly and not very professional.

Just my $0.02...

Duane

calcuttaman
06-25-2010, 06:00 AM
Anyone with a clue understands the detriment of handicapped tourneys.

I firmly believe that by going to 4 divisions it will increase the numbers overall just like it does at the largest state or regional BCAPL tournaments. If people looked, they would have found that the ones that have 4 divisions are the biggest ones attendance wise. And these ones continue to grow. A good example would be the increasing numbers at the WI state BCAPL tournaments the last few years.

Here's a good case in point. In WI the divisions are, Master, AA, A, B. I've got a friend that is most definitely a B player. He plays in the B division at states and has cashed but not at the top. On his best days he could beat a A player and *possibly* on his greatest day ever and a AA's worst day ever he might beat the AA player. I don't think he could ever beat a (WI)Master player.

So now he wants to go to Vegas and what does he see? 4-5 WI Master players in the Open division AND 12+ WI AA's in the open division. What chance does he have of even cashing? What incentive does he have to come to Vegas when he knows what he's facing.

Before anyone speaks up and says, "Well this is how you get better, by playing better players." Yep, that's true for about 1 in 10,000 player WHO will be able to play a better player and then get better. But what about the other 9999 players who aren't going to get better?

Lets face it, there is a vastly large number of those B players (and A players) out there that aren't coming to Vegas because they know they will have to play AA and Master players. Maybe now they will come and play.

Duane Tuula
06-25-2010, 11:05 AM
I firmly believe that by going to 4 divisions it will increase the numbers overall...

Here's a good case in point. In WI the divisions are, Master, AA, A, B. I've got a friend that is most definitely a B player. He plays in the B division at states and has cashed but not at the top. On his best days he could beat a A player and *possibly* on his greatest day ever and a AA's worst day ever he might beat the AA player. I don't think he could ever beat a (WI)Master player.

So now he wants to go to Vegas and what does he see? 4-5 WI Master players in the Open division AND 12+ WI AA's in the open division. What chance does he have of even cashing? What incentive does he have to come to Vegas when he knows what he's facing.

...

Lets face it, there is a vastly large number of those B players (and A players) out there that aren't coming to Vegas because they know they will have to play AA and Master players. Maybe now they will come and play.

So 4 is the magic number then? I see. Then why does WI combine A/AA and AA/Master and Master/GM in different events and handicap?

Pro's do lose to B players in bar box 8-ball and it doesn't have to be anyones best or worst day.

How many people actually cash in Vegas? If that's the only reason you go then you are surely misguided.

I'll definitely agree that in any tournament the B group is largest (open in Vegas). Wouldn't it make more sense to split up that group?

Drawing all these fine lines with advancing skill levels is ridiculous. The more divisions you create the more headaches you create. Each group will have a top and bottom. For the most part, the "tops" want to stay exactly where they are and always cash while the "bottoms" want to move down to the next division and be a "top".

I believe in keeping things simple. :eek:

DR Pool
06-25-2010, 11:15 AM
Duane: I'll attempt to answer Wisconsin. First off the GM will be a thing of the past in WI.

Second the A/AA combination is in 9-ball only and has worked pretty well.

The M/AA is for team and has leveled the competition.

As far as drawing the lines, everyone has to do it at some point, yourself included in detemining who can play in the no-master events.

Dean

Holly
06-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Duane,

I'd like to address some of the issues and comments you made. But first thank you for your appreciation of the work that CSI / BCAPL does. We love what we do and dedicate all that do to bring more opportunity for tournament and league play to as many people as possible.

Implementation of the new Advanced division was not a spontaneous decision. Organizationally CSI does not operate that way. Any decision made is discussed and really pulled apart and around as a team for months if not years before choosing to move forward or not. It is standard for us to announce any policy updates or changes immediately following the BCAPL nationals in May. Since it's announcement we have also been fully prepared and have answered all inquiries sent to us.

Our goal was stated in the initial press release: The Advanced Division was created to add a level of play that falls between the Open Division and the Master Division. The goal is to allow more players to participate and to further competitive opportunity.

We wish all players to compete in as close to an even field within their division as possible. In other sports, such as amateur tennis, there are numerous levels (as many as 7 or 8) or for example when I was competing in Golf as a teen we usually had 6 or so flights that players participated based on their skill level. It is a sign of growth and a desire to see people be able to compete should they choose to that expansion of divisions are created regardless of activity or sport.

I do not believe publicizing our lists is a joke, actually we are happy that we are so open to our league members and public. Our database is huge and like any databases, sometimes duplicates show up because (i.e, married vs. maiden names). However on a regular basis queries are ran to catch any updates or merges that need to take place and anyone in IT knows that database maintenance and reviews are standard operating procedures. However, I do agree with you that we should clean those duplicates up and are on it right now. It’s like cleaning out the garage, not necessarily the most enjoyable job, but important non-the less

Regarding the nicknames, that is the choice of the player themselves. We request legal names and enter that information into our system, but we also have a “nickname or goes’ by” type of field. This is the first name field you are seeing on the online lists. If someone prefers to go by Rich or RJ versus Richard, that is their prerogative and this is a sport that we all love to be involved, not a governmental agency.

Over the years I’ve heard, read, seen, observed, and fired back at any one-sided arguments about handicapped vs. non-handicapped tournaments or events. There is a place and room for both. There should be and always will be both. If we limit players in a manner where people from all walks of life and skill level do not feel they can enjoy healthy and hopefully as equitable as possible competition that would be unfair and self centered. Not everyone is created equal in ability regardless whether the activity is pool, tennis, golf or the shot put :), should that prevent them from being able to choose to compete with the hope of possible winning? Nope, that’s why there are flights in golf, levels in tennis and divisions in amateur and league pool.

One of the greatest gifts we have as human beings is the gift of choice. We at CSI choose to expand options for players, it is an individual’s choice to decide to participate and enjoy those options or not.

All the best,
Holly

almer
06-25-2010, 12:16 PM
Duane,

I'd like to address some of the issues and comments you made. But first thank you for your appreciation of the work that CSI / BCAPL does. We love what we do and dedicate all that do to bring more opportunity for tournament and league play to as many people as possible.

Implementation of the new Advanced division was not a spontaneous decision. Organizationally CSI does not operate that way. Any decision made is discussed and really pulled apart and around as a team for months if not years before choosing to move forward or not. It is standard for us to announce any policy updates or changes immediately following the BCAPL nationals in May. Since it's announcement we have also been fully prepared and have answered all inquiries sent to us.

Our goal was stated in the initial press release: The Advanced Division was created to add a level of play that falls between the Open Division and the Master Division. The goal is to allow more players to participate and to further competitive opportunity.

We wish all players to compete in as close to an even field within their division as possible. In other sports, such as amateur tennis, there are numerous levels (as many as 7 or 8) or for example when I was competing in Golf as a teen we usually had 6 or so flights that players participated based on their skill level. It is a sign of growth and a desire to see people be able to compete should they choose to that expansion of divisions are created regardless of activity or sport.

I do not believe publicizing our lists is a joke, actually we are happy that we are so open to our league members and public. Our database is huge and like any databases, sometimes duplicates show up because (i.e, married vs. maiden names). However on a regular basis queries are ran to catch any updates or merges that need to take place and anyone in IT knows that database maintenance and reviews are standard operating procedures. However, I do agree with you that we should clean those duplicates up and are on it right now. It’s like cleaning out the garage, not necessarily the most enjoyable job, but important non-the less

Regarding the nicknames, that is the choice of the player themselves. We request legal names and enter that information into our system, but we also have a “nickname or goes’ by” type of field. This is the first name field you are seeing on the online lists. If someone prefers to go by Rich or RJ versus Richard, that is their prerogative and this is a sport that we all love to be involved, not a governmental agency.

Over the years I’ve heard, read, seen, observed, and fired back at any one-sided arguments about handicapped vs. non-handicapped tournaments or events. There is a place and room for both. There should be and always will be both. If we limit players in a manner where people from all walks of life and skill level do not feel they can enjoy healthy and hopefully as equitable as possible competition that would be unfair and self centered. Not everyone is created equal in ability regardless whether the activity is pool, tennis, golf or the shot put :), should that prevent them from being able to choose to compete with the hope of possible winning? Nope, that’s why there are flights in golf, levels in tennis and divisions in amateur and league pool.

One of the greatest gifts we have as human beings is the gift of choice. We at CSI choose to expand options for players, it is an individual’s choice to decide to participate and enjoy those options or not.

All the best,
Holly

I PLAY IN VNEA AS WELL AS BCA AND I AND ALOT OF OTHER PEOPLE FEEL THE INTERMEDIATE DIVISION IN VNEA IS A COMPLETE FAILURE,I HOPE YOUR NEW DIVISION ISNT THE SAME RESULT,I LOVE IT THE WAY IT IS,sorry about caplocks,just noticed they were on

Holly
06-25-2010, 12:49 PM
Dear Almer,

Thanks for your feedback. Each league is different as you know. The BCAPL players who compete in league tournaments, state, regional and national we believe will welcome the Advanced division. We believe for the BCAPL, the new division will allow players who can too easily dominate the Open division yet they feel they really don't have a great chance in the Master division their "own space" as you will. We've received requests over the years for those in the BCAPL singles middle world to implement a division of this kind in order to feel comfortable playing in singles again. I believe the division will be successful and at the same time more clearly define what is a true Master player too.

Cheers,
Holly

Duane Tuula
06-25-2010, 01:01 PM
Duane: I'll attempt to answer Wisconsin. First off the GM will be a thing of the past in WI.

Second the A/AA combination is in 9-ball only and has worked pretty well.

The M/AA is for team and has leveled the competition.

As far as drawing the lines, everyone has to do it at some point, yourself included in detemining who can play in the no-master events.

Dean

Dean, Dean, Dean... you missed the point. WI does a find job in general. I'm simply pointing out that "four divisions" is not exactly the magic number in my opinion as stated by your friend.

As I stated, keep it simple. Yes, draw lines but not too many. I'm adding my comments because national associations such as the BCAPL set the trends for the rest to follow.

Duane Tuula
06-25-2010, 01:44 PM
Duane,

I'd like to address some of the issues and comments you made...
Holly

Thanks for your thoughtful response. However, pillaging from the master's division to create an advanced division still doesn't work for me. If you were to bump up about the top 32 open to master and 33/96 open to advanced you'd get my vote.

I personally appreciate the "lists" and use them frequently. I understand maintenance and IT since I have 25+ years experience. The lists when I looked at them yesterday were "ugly" as I said. Checking again today I see they have been changed. Thanks to all who keep them updated and accurate.

When you get 128 in the master's and 10x that in the open this past year it is clear to me you need to move more players up from the open to create a valuable division in between.

Holly
06-25-2010, 02:43 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful response. However, pillaging from the master's division to create an advanced division still doesn't work for me. If you were to bump up about the top 32 open to master and 33/96 open to advanced you'd get my vote.

I personally appreciate the "lists" and use them frequently. I understand maintenance and IT since I have 25+ years experience. The lists when I looked at them yesterday were "ugly" as I said. Checking again today I see they have been changed. Thanks to all who keep them updated and accurate.

When you get 128 in the master's and 10x that in the open this past year it is clear to me you need to move more players up from the open to create a valuable division in between.

Duane,

The Advanced division is not pillaging from the Masters, just creating better definition. In fact we'd love to see you play again at nationals and the Advanced division is ideally suited for a player like yourself. We haven't seen you play in the Singles since 2005. I saw you did very well cashing at 17th place in the Men's Master Singles then in 2006 your Men's / Mixed Master team took 13th, but you did not play in singles that year. I outlined this as an example of why an intermediate / Advanced division's time has come. Sorry if you do not agree that we are not pulling from the Open division enough into the Advanced division. I hope you are in the situation or choose to compete again. In your situation you would be an advanced player starting in 2011 should you so request.

All the best,
Holly

El Diablo
06-25-2010, 03:10 PM
There is no way you are pulling enough players from the Open Divisions into Advanced. Just my opinion and I've been to all but one of the BCA Championships for the last ten years.

DRW
06-25-2010, 03:26 PM
Want to increase the division play - You should have 3 divisions

Trophy teams - Can consist of anyone (if SVB and his pro friends want to play to win a trophy, so be it)

Open teams can only have Open players. Not an Advanced or Master player to be found.

Master teams can have anyone but limited to only one Grand Master and also must have one Advanced or Open player that plays each round for their team - all of this minus someone who is a top 64 pro .

Foreign countries can not have National teams. Foreign countries, to qualify, must have more than a global league that encompasses their entire country.

If you use my ideas, send me back the $500 entry fee I burned for our Master Team last year.

Want to give me a job, give me an email where to send my resume and salary requirements.
I, like watchez believe the Foreign countries should have to revamp their system. Reminds me of the middle 90's when a Texas league operator owned about the whole Texas panhandle. Had several monster all star teams and Chewy Riviera lived in Denver, but somehow played on one of those teams. That was while John Lewis was in charge though.

akaTrigger
06-25-2010, 03:27 PM
I am pretty sure the BCAPL will check out how this goes next year and adjust if need be. You all make it sound like this is the final decision for life! They already know to learn and adjust when needed and after considering many options, opinions, and learning experiences.

I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.

Learning experiences is what separates the successful businesses from others imo.

Marie's husband
06-25-2010, 03:36 PM
How is this Advanced division going to affect the formatting for the teams events?


In example, I do see a lot of regionals are held in March and April, Nationals are held in May, that only gives a person one month to reorganize a team or scotch double partner if they performed well at regionals and are going to Vegas. Also, most teams have already make there plans in March for the May tournament, so I can see a lot of people having to make some last minute changes unless the BCAPL makes some clauses in the team format for when a team member does get moved up in divisions.

I was just wondering due to there may be teams out there that will have to restructure there league team so that they may be eligible for Vegas team events.

Thank You


Whoops, didnt see the post about the teams questions will be answered on June 29th.

DRW
06-25-2010, 03:42 PM
I am pretty sure the BCAPL will check out how this goes next year and adjust if need be. You all make it sound like this is the final decision for life! They already know to learn and adjust when needed and after considering many options, opinions, and learning experiences.

I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.

Learning experiences is what separates the successful businesses from others imo.
Mark Griffin, most certainly has my faith and support on anything he does with pool.:thumbup:

Holly
06-25-2010, 03:47 PM
I, like watchez believe the Foreign countries should have to revamp their system. Reminds me of the middle 90's when a Texas league operator owned about the whole Texas panhandle. Had several monster all star teams and Chewy Riviera lived in Denver, but somehow played on one of those teams. That was while John Lewis was in charge though.

I've joked the past couple of years that part of all of our jobs at CSI is just that, investigation. We work hard to make sure everyone is qualified, sanction and on the up and up. Nope, not on our watch if we can at all help it.

DogsPlayingPool
06-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Holly, I've a question. Are you allowed to play up from whatever division you are allocated into? In other words, if you are in the Open division can you also compete in the Advanced, Masters, and G. Masters?

If so, this gives single players in the lower division more opportunities to compete and more incentive to make the trip to Nationals, since they would have more than one event to look forward to.

Holly
06-25-2010, 04:51 PM
Holly, I've a question. Are you allowed to play up from whatever division you are allocated into? In other words, if you are in the Open division can you also compete in the Advanced, Masters, and G. Masters?

If so, this gives single players in the lower division more opportunities to compete and more incentive to make the trip to Nationals, since they would have more than one event to look forward to.

Hello :) DPP,

Players can choose to play in a singles division that is progressive above where they are currently listed. HOWEVER...a player is ONLY allowed to play in one singles division at all during nationals. Due to scheduling it is impossible to allow players to play in multiple singles divisions as you describe. Somewhere along the line someone would have to forfeit possibly because of that type of allowance and with 10,000 entries and 6800-7000 players with time and space limits, I'm sure you can see the scenario that could brew.

At this time there are 22 divisions at the BCAPL Nationals. Feasibly, a player can play in the 9-Ball Challenge, Scotch Doubles, Singles and Teams. We are also looking for ways to offer more for the players and appreciate good feedback and suggestions. Doesn't mean they are always feasible when looking at all the variables involved in an event this size, but we truly appreciate your imput.

TTFN,
Holly

DunnM1
06-25-2010, 05:19 PM
No! Don't like this at all. You can not make decisions based on past performance. And this is why: Player A is better than Player B, but Player B has finished higher in the State or National Tournaments. Why, because Player B had a weaker bracket. You have no way of knowing which player is better than someone else. You can in Golf, not in pool. This is what happens. Say you have a tournament that the same individuals are always in the cash. The lower players complain (and normally) those lower players can not win anyways. What happens is that you ban those individuals (Master Division, Advanced Division) that are winning and they are replaced by the next level of players, and those players start winning all the tournaments. What happens is you start with 128 players, some get ban and now those individuals that wanted to play them won't show up as well. So now your tournament have 32 players if you are lucky. Until you can handicap players correctly this won't work. But wait pool is handicaped, it is called Pro's and Amauters. Next thing we will do is create divisions with in the Pro events. Lets see we could name those divisions Grand Masters, Masters, Advanced and Open. What a concept. You are trying (VNEA included), to get every unspoken for $, instead of doing what is best for our wonderful sport. No wonder our sport is moving backwards. A good idea that the IPT had was trying to force the pool community to support the sport.

Maybe it is time to do something else with my free time. Maybe golf.

Michael Dunn
Grove City, OH

DogsPlayingPool
06-25-2010, 05:27 PM
Holly, I get it but it's still a bummer. A player member doesn't have that many opportunities to compete (unlike weekly league teams) so it would be nice to be able to double or triple up as long as you're making the trip to Vegas. But I do see your point.

I suppose the reason so many can compete in singles and teams is that they are not contested at the same time. In the Open division singles at Nationals do you have any info on what percentage also play on teams and what percentage are not on teams and play BCAPL strictly on a player-member basis?

How many events are available yearly for a player-member in say, Southern California, without having to travel?

TheCaveman
06-25-2010, 09:13 PM
Foreign countries can not have National teams. Foreign countries, to qualify, must have more than a global league that encompasses their entire country.



I agree with Watchez when it comes to the Foreign Teams. They shouldn't be able to send a super team to Vegas. I remember trying to start a State Wide Monthly Traveling league here so we could get all the teams from across the state playing against each other. The concern that was relayed to us is that we'd build super teams from all the best players. If we can't do it in a State, I don't think a foreign country should be able to do it either.

The change to an advanced division, I think it's good. Good for the tournament, good for the players. I'm waiting anxiously to see how it's going to affect Teams. In AZ, we're scrambling because the SW Championship is only a few weeks away and we have to figure out who can play with who.


I do agree with Duane that more players from the Open need to be moved into the Masters.

DunnM1
06-26-2010, 12:15 PM
Not good, and not good for pool!

almer
06-26-2010, 04:57 PM
Dear Almer,

Thanks for your feedback. Each league is different as you know. The BCAPL players who compete in league tournaments, state, regional and national we believe will welcome the Advanced division. We believe for the BCAPL, the new division will allow players who can too easily dominate the Open division yet they feel they really don't have a great chance in the Master division their "own space" as you will. We've received requests over the years for those in the BCAPL singles middle world to implement a division of this kind in order to feel comfortable playing in singles again. I believe the division will be successful and at the same time more clearly define what is a true Master player too.

Cheers,
Holly

holly i know personally 3 of the top 5 finisheres in the open division,at least 2 have always played in masters and dropped to open this year,1 also won masters vnea and everything in acs,the problem with pool leagues which i have enjoyed and supported for many,many years is some players dont want to compete with players of their own level and look at leagues as a quick way to make a few thousand when the opportunity arrises for them.that part will never change.I have been ranked as a open and master also but age has way of evening out our abilities to play for long periods and play at top of your game,anyway ill support whatever you guys decide but i may disagree

Duane Tuula
06-26-2010, 05:01 PM
Duane,

The Advanced division is not pillaging from the Masters, just creating better definition. In fact we'd love to see you play again at nationals and the Advanced division is ideally suited for a player like yourself. We haven't seen you play in the Singles since 2005. I saw you did very well cashing at 17th place in the Men's Master Singles then in 2006 your Men's / Mixed Master team took 13th, but you did not play in singles that year. I outlined this as an example of why an intermediate / Advanced division's time has come. Sorry if you do not agree that we are not pulling from the Open division enough into the Advanced division. I hope you are in the situation or choose to compete again. In your situation you would be an advanced player starting in 2011 should you so request.

All the best,
Holly


Wow, you just reinforced why "having a little knowlegde is dangerous". I'm going to have a good laugh now :yikes:

cardiac kid
06-26-2010, 09:16 PM
Wow, you just reinforced why "having a little knowlegde is dangerous". I'm going to have a good laugh now :yikes:

Duane,

My guess is this opinion is will be unwanted. Like you, I finished 17 - 24 in the Master's. Mine was three straight years before the BCAPL took over. During those years, BCA and BCAPL graduated between 42 and 64 players a year into the Masters. Yet each year the field was barely over two hundred. Where did those players go? My bet is most played one additional year in the Masters and then gave up! Looking at the Masters field, it is basicly the same players, year after year. It can't grow. It can't grow because finishing 17 - 24 in a field of two hundred of the very best only pays $375! To win that, I had to beat at least six or seven players of equal or better talent. There just is not enough money to keep those players coming back for the level of competition offered. And I didn't even mention the English, Spanish, Portuguese and where ever the next National Tournament invasion is going to come from.

Adding the "Advanced" division does give some of those soon to be missing Master level players a place to go where they potentially don't have to play world beaters match after match. I understand the concept. The problem is the Masters division will go away. There just won't be enough new players to overcome the losses. The field will shrink and bye, bye. Perhaps the BCAPL is thinking of combining the Grand Masters and the remaining Master players into one group. A field of 128 might be just right. Let them beat each others brains out. Not me. I'm happily entered into the life of a Super Senior:boring2:.

Lyn

DunnM1
06-26-2010, 10:59 PM
How can you guys be in favor of this? This is a bad idea! They can not justify what makes you go up or what will make you come down. The only way to use past performance is to have everyone play everyone else to see who is really the better player. The only reason, they are looking into this is because someone that can not win the open is complaining they don't have a chance. Why not make a B Division, for those people. :(

akaTrigger
06-27-2010, 07:17 PM
How can you guys be in favor of this? This is a bad idea! They can not justify what makes you go up or what will make you come down. The only way to use past performance is to have everyone play everyone else to see who is really the better player. The only reason, they are looking into this is because someone that can not win the open is complaining they don't have a chance. Why not make a B Division, for those people. :(

What?

Whatever.

stuckart
06-27-2010, 08:04 PM
How can you guys be in favor of this? This is a bad idea! They can not justify what makes you go up or what will make you come down. The only way to use past performance is to have everyone play everyone else to see who is really the better player. The only reason, they are looking into this is because someone that can not win the open is complaining they don't have a chance. Why not make a B Division, for those people. :(

I'm 100% in favor for this division. This is exactly what needs to happen. You are taking all players that were Masters at some point, but can't compete as Masters, you are taking all Team Masters and some but not all of the OPEN singles players and putting them in this division. Top 8 in the Open (this year) still go to Masters, but the 9th-48th go in as Advanced, which is exactly where they belong. I think after the CSI Investigators finish looking at all State Tourneys, Regionals, etc. they will have a great list of players that are "Advanced" and also a super competitive "Masters" tournament. Not to mention many many more players that can come out and actually compete in the "OPEN" division now without having to worry about playing a Monster. This can only grow the event, which benefits everyone! (Except maybe the other league systems :wink: )

The best thing this does is do away with the Masters Team Event, which never has really worked. This way, you can have a True OPEN Team event without teams with Masters and Grand Masters on them and maybe one Advanced Player instead. Then you get an Awesome Advanced Team tournament with teams of Advanced Players with a few Masters thrown into the mix.

DunnM1
06-28-2010, 02:57 PM
So you guys want to play lessor players because you are tired of taking 17th-24th in the Master's Division. :confused: This is REALLY REALLY bad for pool and the BCAPL. It failed with the VNEA and the BCAPL will please the few and not the whole. The answer is not creating a new division. It is all about putting the tournament money in the correct spots. You 25% of the field only and pay it top heavy. And the open division should pay less than the other higher divisions. The reason you are getting people wanting to play in the lower divisions is because the money is there. Don't say there is not enough money, the APA pays $25,000 for first. How can you decide on past performance. NO NO NO! Why not add divisions to the pro's. :wink:

JoeyA
06-28-2010, 03:16 PM
Personally Holly, the new Policy looks more fair than the old policy. I think it's a step in the right direction.

HOWEVER, I'm curious as to whether an Advanced Player will be allowed to play in the Senior's Division.

Just wondering.....

TheCaveman
06-28-2010, 03:40 PM
So you guys want to play lessor players because you are tired of taking 17th-24th in the Master's Division. :confused: This is REALLY REALLY bad for pool and the BCAPL. It failed with the VNEA and the BCAPL will please the few and not the whole. The answer is not creating a new division. It is all about putting the tournament money in the correct spots. You 25% of the field only and pay it top heavy. And the open division should pay less than the other higher divisions. The reason you are getting people wanting to play in the lower divisions is because the money is there. Don't say there is not enough money, the APA pays $25,000 for first. How can you decide on past performance. NO NO NO! Why not add divisions to the pro's. :wink:

The open division pays more because it has more entries. 2000 people in the open and 600 people in the Masters. Are you suggesting they take money from a different tournament and use it to pay for another event?

All the events at Vegas are different events.

I would agree that more of the added money should go to the higher skilled divisions, but I think they already do this.

To take money from the open to pay the masters, that's like telling your local Friday night tournament that has 30 players to take some money from it's pot and pay for the Sunday night 10 player tournament.

I've made the case many times that more people need to moved into the Master Division to keep the tournament big, but very little people get bumped. The one thing I loved about the VNEA is that if you won the open team event, the players all became Masters regardless of how they did in Singles. Of course, that was over 10 years ago when I went there so maybe things have changed or my memory isn't that good. Holy Crap I'm getting old. lol

This change will benefit the Team Events. Sure Master's teams might have to break up, but reforming teams might be a good thing. The APA limits teams to a certain handicap (or rating or w/e). That's pretty much the same thing that CSI has been moving towards. Limiting teams to players with certain skill levels.

It'll be good for a majority of the players and that is probably something that CSI is comfortable with achieving.

We'll see how it shakes out, but at the end of the day I believe in the team at CSI. :)

Celtic
06-28-2010, 04:56 PM
Not to mention many many more players that can come out and actually compete in the "OPEN" division now without having to worry about playing a Monster.

Until you play one of the Team Spain guys who speaks no english, noone at the BCAPL knows whot he heck he is, but he is a monster in his home country.

There will still be monsters in the open. Every single year some slip through the cracks, many of the better players don't even win the first year in the open due to the short race to 5 format being closer to a "coin flip" then a tournament you pay $1000+ and a week of your life to travel to and play in. There are guys I know that got bumped up to the Advanced that have played every year for many years in the open singles and never managed to crack into the masters. Great players but once you get into the final 64 or so everyone is running racks and 1 or 2 dry breaks is all you have to do wrong to get knocked out.

cardiac kid
06-28-2010, 05:00 PM
So you guys want to play lessor players because you are tired of taking 17th-24th in the Master's Division. :confused: This is REALLY REALLY bad for pool and the BCAPL. It failed with the VNEA and the BCAPL will please the few and not the whole. The answer is not creating a new division. It is all about putting the tournament money in the correct spots. You 25% of the field only and pay it top heavy.

Dunn,

Did you read my entire statement about finishing 17 - 24. My point was the fact there was NO money in the Masters except for the top few places. Think I would have had to finish 5 / 6 or 7 / 8 just to break even. Why spend nearly a $1000 to play? That's why there are so few players in the Masters year after year. Dropping some of them to the Advanced division only creates a future problem and does not solve the one facing the BCAPL today. Perhaps adding some serious money to the event would stimulate some absent players to show up. Adding a new competition division will not. Their just shuffling the deck again.

Lyn

Celtic
06-28-2010, 05:29 PM
Did you read my entire statement about finishing 17 - 24. My point was the fact there was NO money in the Masters except for the top few places. Think I would have had to finish 5 / 6 or 7 / 8 just to break even. Why spend nearly a $1000 to play?

Thing is it is a $150 entry tournament with only 128 players and a $5300 first place prize. They paid $400 for 17th through 24th.

Those numbers are not that bad compared to say the US Open 9-ball, which is a $600 entry fee and 17th through 24th gets $2000. Factor in the fact that the US Open had alot more players and the BCAPL Masters looks pretty good on relative payout for that placing based on the entry fee.

You did not pay $1000 to enter the tournament, you paid most of that money for travel and hotel. And that is the problem with the tournaments, atm the money you spend on the entry fees into the events are a joke compared to the amount of money you spend getting to Vegas and staying there.

What they NEED to do to make the singles truly worthwhile is up the entry fees by alot. If I am spending $1000+ on travel and hotel I want to play in a tournament that has at least a $300 entry fee in the singles, I would happily pay $500 if the payouts then reflect that entry fee.

Think about it, I am spending $500 for a plane ticket and $500 for a hotel and $125? $150 to enter the actual tournament?

So atm I am spending $1150 total, and a whopping $150 is the entry fee into the tournamanet, less then 15% of my total costs. That SUCKS.

Most pool players spend alot of money traveling to tournaments that have an actual significant entry fee and purse, they are not normally traveling across the country for a $150 tourament.

What I would like to see? I am paying $1000 in expenss no matter what so how about a $500 entry fee into the singles? Truth be told $1500 is not that much more then $1150 in the grand scheme of things because the travel costs are already steep. At least this way the tournament can pay off alot more money if I go deep though. Now if you get into the money at the double the entry stage you get back $1000 and it actually helps eat some of the travel costs. If you get to the tripple stage of the money you get back $1500 and voila, you broke even on the whole trip including the entry fee.

ATM though? I have gotten to the $300-450 stages alot and guess what, for all that work I get fleeced because the "winnings" don't even come close to covering the expenses. From an entry fee perspective ya I made money, but in truth I lost a ton. I want a finish on the final board to actually pay off if I am spending $1000+ to be at a tournament, and without some serious increase in the entry fee in Vegas that is not going to take place.

If people are spending a huge sum of money to go to a tournament in Vegas make the entry fee into the singles make sense and give those players a tournament with an entry fee and prizes more in scale with their expenses.

cardiac kid
06-28-2010, 06:22 PM
Thing is it is a $150 entry tournament with only 128 players and a $5300 first place prize. They paid $400 for 17th through 24th. Those numbers are not that bad compared to say the US Open 9-ball, which is a $600 entry fee and 17th through 24th gets $2000. Factor in the fact that the US Open had alot more players and the BCAPL Masters looks pretty good on relative payout for that placing based on the entry fee.

Not a bad comparison. The US Open has, if my memory serves me correctly, $50,000 US added money. The BCAPL Masters event had $12,000 added. $600 entry verses $175. $600 includes table fees, $175 does not. US Open 256 entries. The Masters 126. US Open 1st place $40,000, Masters $5300. An interesting point is the BCAPL is adding nearly $100 per player to the Masters prize fund to get the payouts to where they are today. Pretty damn good.

You did not pay $1000 to enter the tournament, you paid most of that money for travel and hotel. And that is the problem with the tournaments, atm the money you spend on the entry fees into the events are a joke compared to the amount of money you spend getting to Vegas and staying there.

Anything I spend from the moment I leave my home till I return is part of my expences. Normally the event entry fee is the smallest part of my expences. Most people consider the May events their yearly vacation time. I don't.

What they NEED to do to make the singles truly worthwhile is up the entry fees by alot. If I am spending $1000+ on travel and hotel I want to play in a tournament that has at least a $300 entry fee in the singles, I would happily pay $500 if the payouts then reflect that entry fee.

Wow, with the declining number of entries, forking over even more money doesn't sound like a viable route to take. If you don't mind paying that kind of entry fee, perhaps you should consider playing in one of the professional events held concurrently with the BCAPL Amateur. Think the entry fee for the US Open 10 ball was $500. Same expences.

ATM though? I have gotten to the $300-450 stages alot and guess what, for all that work I get fleeced because the "winnings" don't even come close to covering the expenses. From an entry fee perspective ya I made money, but in truth I lost a ton. I want a finish on the final board to actually pay off if I am spending $1000+ to be at a tournament, and without some serious increase in the entry fee in Vegas that is not going to take place. If people are spending a huge sum of money to go to a tournament in Vegas make the entry fee into the singles make sense and give those players a tournament with an entry fee and prizes more in scale with their expenses.

I don't consider I was "fleeced" at any one of the fifteen or so BCA(PL) events I've attended in Vegas. The event is first and foremost a vacation for the greatest percentage of players. Most don't go with the idea of winning. Cashing, even in the lowest places, is what keeps some people coming back. Think there are "ringers" now. Raise the entry fee to even $300 and the only players there will be sponsored pro players and road agents. Sure won't include me! Regardless of the level of dis-satisfaction shown by some players, the BCAPL May event is still the "greatest pool tournament in the world". This past event was absolutely my next to the last one. Been saying that for fifteen years now.

Lyn

Celtic
06-28-2010, 06:37 PM
My point was the fact there was NO money in the Masters except for the top few places. Think I would have had to finish 5 / 6 or 7 / 8 just to break even. Why spend nearly a $1000 to play?

Regardless of the level of dis-satisfaction shown by some players, the BCAPL May event is still the "greatest pool tournament in the world". This past event was absolutely my next to the last one. Been saying that for fifteen years now.

Lyn

That IS quite the 180 spin CK.

Personally though, ya I would rather pay 3 times the current entry fee and see payouts be 3 times higher. Make winning the open 30k instead of 10k. Make the place that paid out $400 now pay out $1200. No matter what the entry fee in the tournament is I am paying 4 digits just to get and stay there, I would rather have a higher prize pool and more significant tournament or else ya, it does make more sense to cash out the trip to the BCAPL and instead spend that same money to go to the US Open 9-ball. But is does not have to be this way, the tournament can up the entry fee to make the event reflect the money I am spending to be there. And the 1291 entries into the event are a large reason the thing is a race to 5. Up the entry fee, loose a few hundred players, and now make it race to 7? Sounds good to me IMHO.

cardiac kid
06-28-2010, 06:53 PM
Celtic,

This past year I participated in eight (8) BCAPL leagues. Six in Rochester and two over the Winter in Vegas. At the Nationals, I played the 9 Ball Open, Super Seniors, Scotch Doubles and the Open team events. Wound up breaking even for all my entry fees. Not the best year for me.

Even though I ask questions, I support the BCAPL and what they have done for pool. Having said that, there is still room for improvement. I have ideas. You have ideas. If we kept them to ourselves, BCAPL would think everything is OK. It isn't. It can and should be better!

Incidentally, did you note the change to the foul / scratch on the break rule? Cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. Not sure I agree. Gives the better player a huge advantage. Sure will speed up the game and the number of racks played during BCAPL events though.

Lyn

Duane Tuula
06-28-2010, 07:13 PM
Even though I ask questions, I support the BCAPL and what they have done for pool. Having said that, there is still room for improvement. I have ideas. You have ideas. If we kept them to ourselves, BCAPL would think everything is OK. It isn't. It can and should be better!


tap, tap, tap...

DunnM1
06-28-2010, 07:23 PM
Celtic / Cardiac Kid

Great conversation. But first when I saw that statement "Greatest pool Tournament in the world", I had to laugh. It has some great features, yes but I think it is one of the worst ran tournaments of that size that I have ever witnessed. To prove my point, Saturday during the team event, In my opioion it was more important to get the second chance tournament and some mini's going than it was to run the main tournament. I think what people needs to understand is that this is an amateur event. I do not like the different divisions. I think it should be Pro's, Semi-Pro's and Amateurs (all those individuals that don't fit in to the other two categories). What I do have a problem with is someone trying to put the players into division categories on past performance. If they have a full time job (not playing pool) they are for the most part an amateur. Put them all together, no open, advanced, master, grand master. Just one with them all.

Entry fee, I'm ok with it as it stands. The money is not great and by adding another division it is going to be even less.

Playing in leagues, used to be fun. Seems now leagues are more interested on getting every last $. It is getting to the point that I might stop playing in the leagues because they are not interested in the sport but the $'s. Maybe it is time to play in Valley Forge, US Open (again, played in it back in 2002), and the Derby.

Celtic
06-28-2010, 07:29 PM
Incidentally, did you note the change to the foul / scratch on the break rule? Cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. Not sure I agree. Gives the better player a huge advantage. Sure will speed up the game and the number of racks played during BCAPL events though.

Lyn

It might save someone from getting beaned in the head by a cueball one of these years. I like the rule if someone pops the ball off the table or snaps the cueball straight into the side pocket off the break. If they break perfect, control the white ball to the center of the table, and it gets kicked in, that is going to be a tough rule to swallow then.

The change in that rule can in effect make it even more difficult for the top player to grind through the dozen matches or so it takes to win. Now there is one more slight thing that can go wrong, being kicked in off the break, that will give a weaker opponent the best chance to run out that set changing game.

IMO the most critical change needed for a tournament of that magnitude is a move to at least race to 7. There are weekly 8-ball tournaments that cost $20 to enter that are race to 5. That is simply too short a race for people playing in a major tournament like the BCAPL Open. There are guys in the open who can run 5-packs and who will often do a 2 and 3 pack for a match where you can really not even break dry once and win. With a race to 7 things become more concrete and you can often fade a bad break and the rolls will tend to even out abit more. You lose the coin toss, he breaks and runs out, you break dry he runs out, he breaks and runs out. Now down 3-0 in a race to 7 you are still very much alive, in a race to 5 alternate break you are pretty much screwed in this case.

Celtic
06-28-2010, 07:35 PM
If they have a full time job (not playing pool) they are for the most part an amateur.

Donnie Mills sells cars, I believe Reed Pierce is not a pool player anymore. Trying to distinguish pool players in catagories like you say is impossible because few players actually make a true living playing this game and there is no official determination of a "pro" such as say, the PGA where you have players who have earned tour cards through qualifying school. One day I would love to see just what you suggest but the sport has nothing even close to being able to accurately and fairly distinguish those catagories ATM.

watchez
06-28-2010, 10:55 PM
Duane,


Regarding the nicknames, that is the choice of the player themselves. We request legal names and enter that information into our system, but we also have a “nickname or goes’ by” type of field. This is the first name field you are seeing on the online lists. If someone prefers to go by Rich or RJ versus Richard, that is their prerogative and this is a sport that we all love to be involved, not a governmental agency.

All the best,
Holly

In Vega$ last May I played against Baby Kong Bailey Jr - oh and I played him twice in a tournament of over 1300 players within 6 matches into the tournament.

watchez
06-28-2010, 10:57 PM
Duane - what is the website to your tourneys again - since you are pointing at the BCAPL, I would like to read the list of winners in your divisions from last season.

sunnyday
06-28-2010, 11:37 PM
In Vega$ last May I played against Baby Kong Bailey Jr - oh and I played him twice in a tournament of over 1300 players within 6 matches into the tournament.

Wachez,

In the Open division, 32 brackets for 64 players had to be used in order to accommodate over 1300 players. That was for preliminary round. Top four, 2 from winner's side and 2 from loser's side from 32 brackets advanced into one Final bracket for 128 players.

Yes, it was unfortunate that you had to play same person twice, but it does happen when crossing a board.

S.

DRW
06-29-2010, 01:36 AM
In Vega$ last May I played against Baby Kong Bailey Jr - oh and I played him twice in a tournament of over 1300 players within 6 matches into the tournament.
How did you do? Was it Bernardo's kid?:grin:

Holly
06-29-2010, 09:18 AM
Personally Holly, the new Policy looks more fair than the old policy. I think it's a step in the right direction.

HOWEVER, I'm curious as to whether an Advanced Player will be allowed to play in the Senior's Division.

Just wondering.....

Hi Joey,

About singles, Advanced players will play in the Advanced division. The old policy disallowed any player above Open to participate in the Seniors. This portion of the policy has not changed.

Hope all is well,
Holly

Holly
06-29-2010, 09:29 AM
In Vega$ last May I played against Baby Kong Bailey Jr - oh and I played him twice in a tournament of over 1300 players within 6 matches into the tournament.

HI Watchez,

Honestly not making light of your post...but the first thought in my head was, is he related to Donkey Kong Bailey? Just kidding. We require legal names for a variety of reasons, number one should someone cash either at the BCAPL Nationals or in a CSI produced / ran BCAPL state or regional events in which we are too responsible for cutting the checks, we have to make sure the name on the check matches the person's legal name and their photo legally issued ID. However, if a person expresses that he / she prefers to go by their nickname we will allow it unless it is vulgar or truly an inapropriate nickname.

:) TTYS,
Holly

TheCaveman
06-29-2010, 10:31 AM
IMO the most critical change needed for a tournament of that magnitude is a move to at least race to 7. There are weekly 8-ball tournaments that cost $20 to enter that are race to 5. That is simply too short a race for people playing in a major tournament like the BCAPL Open. There are guys in the open who can run 5-packs and who will often do a 2 and 3 pack for a match where you can really not even break dry once and win. With a race to 7 things become more concrete and you can often fade a bad break and the rolls will tend to even out abit more. You lose the coin toss, he breaks and runs out, you break dry he runs out, he breaks and runs out. Now down 3-0 in a race to 7 you are still very much alive, in a race to 5 alternate break you are pretty much screwed in this case.

QFT, I would enjoy the open much more if it was a race to 7. I think it would be great for the tournament. Even though longer races favor the stronger player, in Alternate break format, it's anyone's game.

watchez
06-29-2010, 11:06 AM
How did you do? Was it Bernardo's kid?:grin:

I beat him the first time - lost to him the second. Being a weak player I let the fact that I had to play the same player twice be a distraction to me. And I don't think it was Bernardo's kid unless he had an affair with a white woman in Wisconsin some 20-30 years ago.

To Sunny - I would suggest using 16 brackets of 128 players so there is less of a chance for this to happen so early in the tournament. Then you can have 4 from the winners side and 4 from the losers side of each bracket go to the final board. To me, to be honest, it is just a matter of convenience to the group that was running the tournament for the BCAPL. All the computer programs are wonderful and a huge technological advance to the Vegas BCAPL tournament experience - surely they can be used to run a better bracket board system as well. If they can't, I know you can rely on good old human know how.

To Holly - no light in your post taken by me, it wasn't my name that you were comparing to Donkey Kong. He was a nice guy and in fact when he had two girls clapping for him and I had no one there for me, I actually got one of the girls to clap when I won a game. I can see now that you have posted your rule on nicknames that they will be all over the board next year. Can't wait.

sunnyday
06-29-2010, 11:24 AM
To Sunny - I would suggest using 16 brackets of 128 players so there is less of a chance for this to happen so early in the tournament. Then you can have 4 from the winners side and 4 from the losers side of each bracket go to the final board. To me, to be honest, it is just a matter of convenience to the group that was running the tournament for the BCAPL. All the computer programs are wonderful and a huge technological advance to the Vegas BCAPL tournament experience - surely they can be used to run a better bracket board system as well. If they can't, I know you can rely on good old human know how.



Whachez,

You do bring up good points and it's well appreciated at times:p You know I'm saying that with affection:)

We may gamble with using larger bracket (s) in the future, but even with the larger bracket you could still cross playing same player depending on how far you get... But yes, there will be less chance of that.

Thanks for your suggestion.

S.

watchez
06-29-2010, 12:23 PM
I love you too Shunny.

When the Bad Boyz contract runs out, let me know and I'll put in my bid to reap all that money and work for it too.

Firecracker
06-29-2010, 12:34 PM
I think that this division is detrimental to the better players that plan to make the trip, though I can see the value for the players that are not quite to the Master level yet. Just looking at the Ladies divisions, since that is what I am concerned with, only 62 women played in the 2010 Women's Masters, that was before any players were moved down into the Advanced division. So, in 2011, we will probably be lucky to have 40 players in that division, and maybe 2 players will be added per year to this division from now on, so there is no real opportunity to grow. (Note: I know top 4 women are moved into the division, but you have to take into account that 2 women are moved up each year to the Grand Master division. Also, you have to take into account that several players will also ask to move down because they have not finished in the money for the past 2 years at Nationals, so by the end, that division may be negative in players each year.)

Unfortunately, when the better players are in a losing proposition, it creates the sandbagging that is seen rampantly in the APA. I think if the BCA plans to move forward with this plan, the Grand Masters division will need to be eliminated and maybe pro players should only be allowed in the professional events at BCA. If you don't combine the divisions, than neither event will ever really grow. Just like the Open division, if you mingle the elite with the not so elite, the not so elite will stop showing up. (So, basically, back to 3 divisions with different names ;))

Another issue I see is the "known ability" clause playing into these divisions. They need to let all new players earn their way up the ladder. That way everyone has a chance to at least earn the big money before they get their butts handed to them in the upper divisions. :) Known ability is subjective and requires detailed review. I know that I can look at the current BCA Advanced/Master/Grand Master list for the women and see flaws with the ratings listed. It would be easier to eliminate this difficult task of judging players and fairer to the players that are singled out by the known ability clause.

In relation to that, my personal opinion is once someone earns the right to play in the upper divisions, they should not be allowed to move back down. This keeps someone from having an unintentional bad year one year to intentional bad year the second year just to move back down to the lower division into the larger prize funds. This would help build all the upper divisions.

Just my 2 cents on the division topic.

Duane Tuula
06-29-2010, 12:59 PM
Duane - what is the website to your tourneys again - since you are pointing at the BCAPL, I would like to read the list of winners in your divisions from last season.

http://www.thecaromroom.com/Tournaments.html

DunnM1
06-29-2010, 04:43 PM
Holly

Take note, to Firecracker's comment. I like it. Let people move up by playing but, once they are there they can not come down. So if you were moved to say Master you can never come down. That is the only way to be fare.

TheCaveman
06-29-2010, 06:46 PM
We are working on the team criteria now. The BCAPL will have the team answers on Tueday, June 29th. Stay tuned.

Bill Stock
CueSports International
BCA Pool League


waiting patiently. ;)

Holly
07-09-2010, 12:20 PM
We are fine tuning and will have the details out very soon. 99% complete.