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View Full Version : To slip or not to slip...that is the question


SciotoSteve
06-25-2010, 06:56 PM
Some of the greatest players ever have used the slip stroke. Players the status of Willie Mosconi, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Billy "Cornbread Red" Burge, and Eddie Kelly. There are other players also on the list, but these four stand out in my mind. I assume by now, based on previous posts, that everyone knows the difference between a slip stroke and a stroke slip. What I want to discuss is the slip stroke. I would like feedback from individuals regarding exactly how to execute the stroke, the pro's and con's of it, and any personal opinions of the four above-mentioned players or anyone else that is somewhat of an accomplished player or familiar with the technique.

gunzby
06-25-2010, 06:59 PM
You only need to make the thread once. If you want to bump it to the top just post in it to keep it at the top.

This forum arranges threads by newest post and not by newest subject.

poolplayer2093
06-25-2010, 07:04 PM
What's a slip stroke? how do you do it? i work too hard to just put the balls in the pocket

anyone have any videos of Anna Kostanian? i hear she has an old school slip stroke

3andstop
06-25-2010, 07:16 PM
IMO a slip stroke is something that just happens naturally as a part of your game. Developing this technique if its not a part of your normal play (again IMO) is of no practical value.

A slip stroke is when you address the CB pausing at the CB as you aim your shot, and on the last practice stroke before actually hitting the cue ball, you don't pull your stick back so much as you slide your hand back in a very light cradling grip as the inertia holds the stick relatively still. After your hand is moved to the back portion of the butt you start your forward stroke moving the cue stick through the CB.

ShootingArts
06-25-2010, 07:35 PM
Some of the greatest players ever have used the slip stroke. Players the status of Willie Mosconi, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Billy "Cornbread Red" Burge, and Eddie Kelly. There are other players also on the list, but these four stand out in my mind. I assume by now, based on previous posts, that everyone knows the difference between a slip stroke and a stroke slip. What I want to discuss is the slip stroke. I would like feedback from individuals regarding exactly how to execute the stroke, the pro's and con's of it, and any personal opinions of the four above-mentioned players or anyone else that is somewhat of an accomplished player or familiar with the technique.



Steve,

There is a gain to covering the exact same stroke area with the final stroke as the practice strokes. The only difference is that now the cue stick is effectively anywhere from several inches to over four inches longer.

A slip stroke requires considerable effort to master and was never the only stroke in the old time players arsenal as far as I know. They had multiple strokes and used the one that best suited the shot although some players certainly used the slip stroke the vast majority of the time.

A local shortstop level player happened by my table as I was working with the slip stroke and we both noticed how effortless long straight in shots became using it. I also like it with the cue ball tight against the rail.

About executing the slip, a few things are noteworthy. First, the old advocates of a level stroke didn't really try to get the cue as level as possible, the rear of the cue was usually three or four inches higher. The slip stroke works far better with this little bit of help. The other thing is a linen wrapped cue or fairly slick cue is needed to execute a slip stroke, an unwrapped finished cue tends to be too "grabby".

Obviously a slip stroke isn't needed to play top level pool but it is fun to work with and equally obviously some of the very best have used predominantly the slip stroke very successfully.

Hu

Bob Jewett
06-25-2010, 08:20 PM
(about everyone knowing what you mean, copied from the other thread...)
I think this is a bad assumption. I know what I mean by "slip stroke," but I'm not sure what you mean. I vaguely recall a recent discussion in which there seemed to be more than two varieties.

No snooker player would ever use a slip stroke. No living top carom player would ever use a slip stroke. In both cases the standard way of holding the cue stick precludes the hand slipping. So, if you want either accurate potting or accurate spin, a slip stroke is a bad idea, evidently.

As I see it, the main problem is one of consistency. The slipperiness of the wrap varies. Also, the motion of a slip stroke is immensely more complex than when you are using your hand as a simple pivoting connection between forearm and stick.

Tom M
06-25-2010, 08:47 PM
(about everyone knowing what you mean, copied from the other thread...)
I think this is a bad assumption. I know what I mean by "slip stroke," but I'm not sure what you mean. I vaguely recall a recent discussion in which there seemed to be more than two varieties.

No snooker player would ever use a slip stroke. No living top carom player would ever use a slip stroke. In both cases the standard way of holding the cue stick precludes the hand slipping. So, if you want either accurate potting or accurate spin, a slip stroke is a bad idea, evidently.

As I see it, the main problem is one of consistency. The slipperiness of the wrap varies. Also, the motion of a slip stroke is immensely more complex than when you are using your hand as a simple pivoting connection between forearm and stick.

From the perspective of engineering/physics, you are essentially correct. It's almost always true that accuracy of motion comes from simplicity. The simplest series of motions that delivers the tip to the desired point is usually going to be the most accurate. Even though some have mastered it, the motion and "slipping" will tend to introduce error for most of us.

Tom

pdcue
06-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Some of the greatest players ever have used the slip stroke. Players the status of Willie Mosconi, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Billy "Cornbread Red" Burge, and Eddie Kelly. There are other players also on the list, but these four stand out in my mind. I assume by now, based on previous posts, that everyone knows the difference between a slip stroke and a stroke slip. What I want to discuss is the slip stroke. I would like feedback from individuals regarding exactly how to execute the stroke, the pro's and con's of it, and any personal opinions of the four above-mentioned players or anyone else that is somewhat of an accomplished player or familiar with the technique.

For the record - Mosconi did NOT use the slip-stroke.

IMHO - Our fate is not in our strokes, but in ourselves...

Also, IMHO - you are probably using the tail to wag the dog.
As has been mentioned, some players naturally used the slipstroke for their
own reasons - but it doesn't mean that using a slipstroke will make you
a better player. In fact, it well may make you a worse player.

For your consideration:

Ralph Greenleaf.

The greatest player of his era, and one of the best players of all time,
used a side-stroke. Do you think using a side-stroke will turn some
random shortstop into Greenleaf? Or is it not more likely Ralph was a side wheeler
because he started playing at a young age?

Count me in the 'young age' column.

Dale

Rich93
06-25-2010, 11:44 PM
For the record - Mosconi did NOT use the slip-stroke.
...........
Dale

There is a good view, the closest I've ever seen, of how Mosconi slipped at 12:55 of this Mosconi-Fats tape. To get to this point in the tape, move the slider with your mouse. Although pdcue may disagree, I would call it a small slip stroke. But whatever you call it, his grip hand moved back by two or three inches or so on the final backswing.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3109100860459966589#

dwalding
06-25-2010, 11:48 PM
The previous post was correct. It comes naturally from holding the stick. firmly and plays long sessions like 10 hours a day or longer, the stick can't be held firmly any longer and the muscles in the hand relax automatically and this causes the slip.
My suggestion is that you hold the stick firmly and let the grip relax on it's own over time (lots of time). You will develop a more sensitive touch and feel this way, not to mention a more powerful stroke. The legends you spoke about all have lots and lots of hours in common and it is just a side effect of lot's of hours in at stroking the cueball and not rolling it like a coward.

Remember: "Never be afraid of a pool ball or shot, it isn't afraid of you."

dwalding
06-25-2010, 11:50 PM
The previous post was correct. It comes naturally from holding the stick. firmly and playing long sessions like 10 hours a day or longer, the stick can't be held firmly any longer and the muscles in the hand relax automatically and this causes the slip. (Months and years of long sessions, not just a day or two)
My suggestion is that you hold the stick firmly and let the grip relax on it's own over time (lots of time). You will develop a more sensitive touch and feel this way, not to mention a more powerful stroke. The legends you spoke about all have lots and lots of hours in common and it is just a side effect of lot's of hours in at stroking the cueball and not rolling it like a coward.

Remember: "Never be afraid of a pool ball, it isn't afraid of you."

LAlouie
06-25-2010, 11:58 PM
A player who plays well, strokes with a loose grip. He doesn't choke his cue. If one plays with said loose grip, one is bound to play with some sort of slip. The slip is a natural end result of a light grip on the cue. Therefore, I believe most good players play with a slip variation.

I have seen two types. One in which the player slips his grip before stroking the cue, and the other in which the player slips his grip when his stroke comes to an end(my example above). The first one makes no sense to me because I see no advantage or purpose to it. It is basically a standard stroke. The second one makes more sense, because as I said it is a natural ending to a light grip. I also think the cue is more level in the second example because the player lets go at a point when the cue is parallel to the table. If someone here is knowledgeable, what is the point of the first example? I believe John Ervolino was a proponent of the first example.

okinawa77
06-26-2010, 01:58 AM
I have a theory as to why Mosconi and others used the slip stroke.
In his book, he mentions placing the grip hand 6 to 8 inches behind the physical balance point of the cue.
As you know, the cue's diameter gets larger from the joint to the butt capp. It may very well be that Mosconi's hand, when thumb tip touching middle or index finger, would work out to the "sweet spot" of his cue. Therefore, it would be logical to utilize a slip stroke during the back swing of the stroke. One might suggest that the slip during the back swing is to set the grip position, and the slip during the forward motion is the byproduct of the loose grip.

I have played with both. The slip stroke, the stroke slip, and both during each shot. I don't see any significant advantage to the techniques. I think it is a matter of preference.
I can tell you that the double slip is not easy at first, but once you get comfortable with it.....the stroke feels good. It's kind of like driving on a wet road, you peel out at the start, hit the brakes, and slide a little.
The slip stroke is also sometimes used during power break shots. Some people recommend placing your grip farther back during break shots. If you address the shot normally, then your aim will be set....then using the slip stroke during the back swing you are effectively placing your grip farther back. But instead of doing it from the start, you are doing it during the Break Shot stroke.

ironman
06-26-2010, 05:07 AM
For the record - Mosconi did NOT use the slip-stroke.

IMHO - Our fate is not in our strokes, but in ourselves...

Also, IMHO - you are probably using the tail to wag the dog.
As has been mentioned, some players naturally used the slipstroke for their
own reasons - but it doesn't mean that using a slipstroke will make you
a better player. In fact, it well may make you a worse player.

For your consideration:

Ralph Greenleaf.

The greatest player of his era, and one of the best players of all time,
used a side-stroke. Do you think using a side-stroke will turn some
random shortstop into Greenleaf? Or is it not more likely Ralph was a side wheeler
because he started playing at a young age?

Count me in the 'young age' column.

Dale

I have to agree with you here. I see no advatage to promoting alsip stroke. Isuffered fron thisslip stroke foryears and years. Ihad terrible time getting ris of it.
I have thought many times on how I started using it and I think it came from atching somany 3 cushion players when I was younger. In those days I only played bar tablesandi t wasn't that big of a deal asyou don't have to be so accuarate. When Imade the transition to big tables, well, it had to go.
Buddy Hall agreed to wrk with me years ago, but said I had to get rid of the slip stroke orhe culd not lep me.
Danny Searcy used it better than anyone I ever saw.

flips
06-26-2010, 05:08 AM
why would you use a "slip stroke"? because some really good player years ago may have or may have not used it occasionally? you certainly wouldn't get more control with it, so is more spin/power the reason? if so, that seems a little odd to me, as a player simply needs a better stroke, if he is not getting the spin or power that he needs/wants.

Bob Jewett
06-26-2010, 08:28 AM
... If one plays with said loose grip, one is bound to play with some sort of slip. ...
Only if you grip the cue incorrectly to start with.

Many snooker players -- who earn far more than pool players, on average at the top -- grip their sticks all the way at the end; they have no room to slip. Nearly every top carom player uses a rubber grip; their hands do not slip even with light grips.

alstl
06-26-2010, 09:27 AM
Evorlino also used the slip stroke. I use it at times only because the walls in my pool room are a little close on the long rail and doesn't leave much room for a backstroke. I put the butt of the cue against the wall and slide my hand back, then grip and shoot.

Aside from that, the only way I can get it to work is use a tight closed bridge so the cue stays in place while I slide my hand back and that doesn't feel natural to me. I think it is something you need to develop at a young age for it to feel natural.

The advantage I see to the slipstroke is it eliminates any imperfections in the backstroke because the cue doesn't move. Seems like the hesitation stroke accomplishes pretty much the same thing along with the Hopkins punch stroke.

sfleinen
06-26-2010, 11:42 AM
Some of the greatest players ever have used the slip stroke. Players the status of Willie Mosconi, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Billy "Cornbread Red" Burge, and Eddie Kelly. There are other players also on the list, but these four stand out in my mind. I assume by now, based on previous posts, that everyone knows the difference between a slip stroke and a stroke slip. What I want to discuss is the slip stroke. I would like feedback from individuals regarding exactly how to execute the stroke, the pro's and con's of it, and any personal opinions of the four above-mentioned players or anyone else that is somewhat of an accomplished player or familiar with the technique.

Steve:

This topic of the slip stroke had come up (and is still coming up?) in recent times. Here's a "HOW-TO" post on the pros/cons of the slip stroke, and how to execute it:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2164385#post2164385

There are two parts to this post, but they follow each other in succession on that thread.

Although I used to have a honed slip stroke in years past, when I took up snooker, I abandoned it for the reasons that Bob Jewett mentioned above -- lack of pin-point accuracy and control of the cue. And in snooker, accuracy is at a premium.

I hope this is helpful!
-Sean

LAlouie
06-26-2010, 01:24 PM
Many snooker players -- who earn far more than pool players, on average at the top -- grip their sticks all the way at the end; they have no room to slip. Nearly every top carom player uses a rubber grip; their hands do not slip even with light grips.


But I'm not talking about any of those players. It is impossible to slip with a rubber grip and dumb for 3c players to try it. I think the intent of this thread pertains to american pocket pool.

Rich93
06-26-2010, 02:26 PM
But I'm not talking about any of those players. It is impossible to slip with a rubber grip and dumb for 3c players to try it. I think the intent of this thread pertains to american pocket pool.

Bob brought up snooker because they have tougher shots than in pool and presumably have discovered what works best for making tough shots. Unlike pool, where you see a lot of different styles that work, in snooker they pretty much all stroke the same way - crouch very low, use little to no sidespin, arm very close to the chest, very level cue, etc. Bob was arguing that a radical departure from the snooker standard, like a slip stroke, is going to hurt ball pocketing success in pool - at least for most people. So he was recommending against trying to learn that style.

As for 3C players, they use rubber grips to prevent their hand from slipping even if they hold the cue very loosely. The balls are heavier and often they have to be hit hard. For them as with snooker players, slipping is counterproductive.

I've tried slip stroking like Mosconi does it. Although I liked the rhythm of it, I found it hard to control and it reduced my accuracy. I don't know, but maybe the slip strokers of yore used a lot of powder to facilitate the slip. Anyway, we now have the example of the greatest players of today, none of whom slip stroke to my knowledge. For most if not all people, trying to learn that style is a sidetrip that will wind up being a waste of time.

pdcue
06-27-2010, 04:37 AM
There is a good view, the closest I've ever seen, of how Mosconi slipped at 12:55 of this Mosconi-Fats tape. To get to this point in the tape, move the slider with your mouse. Although pdcue may disagree, I would call it a small slip stroke. But whatever you call it, his grip hand moved back by two or three inches or so on the final backswing.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3109100860459966589#

Oh no - the video evidence again - to avoid boring everyone with way too
much explaination, it apears you don't understand what a slip stroke is.

Willie also, in his instructional video, can be seen sliding his hand back
on the cue just before he pulls the trigger on a couple of shots.

To repeat, this is NOT a slipstroke.

If you have ever watched a slipstroker - you only need to glance at
virtually any shot.

The OP wanted to discuss the slipstroke.

HTH
Dale

RunoutJJ
06-27-2010, 06:09 AM
imo a slip stroke is something that just happens naturally as a part of your game. Developing this technique if its not a part of your normal play (again imo) is of no practical value.
a slip stroke is when you address the cb pausing at the cb as you aim your shot, and on the last practice stroke before actually hitting the cue ball, you don't pull your stick back so much as you slide your hand back in a very light cradling grip as the inertia holds the stick relatively still. After your hand is moved to the back portion of the butt you start your forward stroke moving the cue stick through the cb.


that^^^^^^

I personaly have changed my stance.. grip.. and bridge over and over again till i came to where my game is today. One day i noticed that i hold my cue extremely lightly (by a few fingers near the tips) and was rocking balls in the holes with great cue ball control with a slip storke. Now ive had a couple people tell me that they didnt like my new grip (people that hadnt seen me in awhile) but whatever... It works for me and i get the results (most of the time :lol:) that i want.

To each their own really.

nancewayne
06-27-2010, 08:17 AM
Most of these posts refer to the "good ol' times" and famous players. Almost ALL of these players predominately played 14.1 straight pool AND on fairly nappy cloth. Most shots were short distance shots and in tight cue ball position. By holding the cue butt VERY lightly and having short strokes, sometimes the cue would "slip" a little in the grip hand. I don't think it was a deliberate "Slip Stoke" as much as result of a very light small stroke. I've played Pocket Billiards for over 50 years and earlier mainly played 14.1 straight pool. I have a "slip stroke" on short distance shots. I have to work at a tighter grip on longer and/or harder hit shots (more used in 9 or 10 ball).


why would you use a "slip stroke"? because some really good player years ago may have or may have not used it occasionally? you certainly wouldn't get more control with it, so is more spin/power the reason? if so, that seems a little odd to me, as a player simply needs a better stroke, if he is not getting the spin or power that he needs/wants.