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SOULHASSORROW
06-27-2010, 09:57 PM
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

manwon
06-27-2010, 10:15 PM
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.


I don't believe in taper rolls, either a shaft is straight or it isn't, in my opinion a taper roll is just another word for a slight roll or lack of straightness of the shaft.

JIMO

12squared
06-27-2010, 10:20 PM
Some people call a wobble in the middle of the shaft a taper roll if the tip stays on the table, but in reality it's not. A taper role would not wobble if straight - a true taper role would be if the taper created space in certain areas when roled, but without a wobble. The good news is this type of role typically does not affect play, I think this is why people call it a taper role. It is very common.

If you bought the cue new and the role is pronounced, I think the cuemaker should replace them. If it is a slight role, I would let them know of it and see what time does to it. it would be smart to have an agreement w/the cuemaker to replace the shaft(s) if they got worse if not misused or stored.

Just my opinion.

Dave

SOULHASSORROW
06-28-2010, 12:24 AM
thanks guys, i know wood moves and the enviornment affects the wood's straightness so that could be a factor. i actually sent this same cue to espiritu cause there was a stain on the buttcap and he replaced it for free,all i had to pay was shipping. i hope he feels the same way about the shafts.

Tramp Steamer
06-28-2010, 04:52 AM
It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment. As to who caused the warp, you'll have to work that out with whomever you got the cue from. :)

Black-Balled
06-28-2010, 05:40 AM
It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment. As to who caused the warp, you'll have to work that out with whomever you got the cue from. :)

I am not sure I have ever owned a cue that was perfectly even all along the lenght of the shaft. I agree that as long as the tip isn't lifting when rolled it is game on!

SCCues
06-28-2010, 09:44 AM
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

To me taper roll is just a nicer way of saying a shaft is warped. If you roll a shaft on a pool table and the middle moves up and down whether the tip leaves the cloth or not it's warped. The only question is how bad is it. I see sellers describe the shaft or shafts on the cue they are selling as having a taper roll. That sounds better than saying one or both are warped......

James

pdcue
06-28-2010, 11:38 AM
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

P-L-E-A-S-E stop rolling cues on pool tables and thinking it shows
if they are warped.

There are many reasons a cue will appear to wobble when rolled.

Being warped is only one of them.

If you have access to a lathe - put the shaft in the lathe between
centers and spin it. this will tell beyond any doubt.

No lathe - sight down the cue/shaft like a rifle and slowly rotate it.
If you can not detect a warp with this method, it is safe to assume
the cue is straighter than your stroke is.

Dale<who is somewhat warped himself>

ratcues
06-28-2010, 12:24 PM
It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment.

The wood doesn't care what kind of equiptment you use. ;)

TATE
06-28-2010, 01:17 PM
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

This is very typical shaft warpage.

If a shaft is prone to warpage, storing a cue in a hot, humid area like a non-air conditioned house during summer, or a garage, or a trunk, will bring out whatever warp is inherent.

I don't know if this is going to be controversial, but I've noticed a lot of cues that come in from the southern states have a problem with shaft warpage. I don't know if it's because of the conditions when they are made or the condition they are stored - but I've had bad experience with cues from hot, humid areas.

If these shafts really are new, I would hope he will replace them.

Chris

Tramp Steamer
06-28-2010, 05:03 PM
The wood doesn't care what kind of equiptment you use. ;)


Oh yeah. Why, just the other day my neice Sarasota and I, you remember Sarasota don't you, were walking through the forest communing with nature when all of a sudden one of the trees began to speak. The tree said, "Please. Stop killing us trees just so you can make pianos and pool cues."
Well, Me and Sarasota took off like a rocket and didn't stop running until we had downed our third shot of Quervo at a roadside tavern, three miles away.
Turns out, according to the bartender, a crazy old moonshiner has been living in those woods. Sarasota still thinks it's the trees. :wink:

Ken_4fun
06-28-2010, 05:06 PM
If you are selling its taper roll, if you are buying its warp.

I crack me up sometimes.

Ken

SOULHASSORROW
06-28-2010, 11:04 PM
thanks for the input guys. unfortunately i dont have access to a lathe, and the shafts are definitely warped in the middle. i actually won both of these in raffles and i never played with them or put them together. the person who ran the raffle said they were new so i figured they would be straight. again thanks for all the input and funny posts lol!

LAlouie
06-29-2010, 01:02 AM
There's no guarantees, Bub. Warps happen, unless the conclusion can be drawn that the warp was especially nasty and out of the ordinary. There's no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.

SOULHASSORROW
06-29-2010, 01:22 AM
There's no guarantees, Bub. Warps happen, unless the conclusion can be drawn that the warp was especially nasty and out of the ordinary. There's no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.

you have a good point sir!!! but no the cue was always stored in a case in temps that would not harm it in anyway. the humidity here in the north(montana) is different from the south,where espiritu is located, so that couldve warped the shafts!

manwon
06-29-2010, 01:29 AM
There's no guarantees, Bub. Warps happen, unless the conclusion can be drawn that the warp was especially nasty and out of the ordinary. There's no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.



If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.[/QUOTE]

If it was a perfect world that was climate controlled and all cue makers only used the best woods that were well seasoned and slowly turned over at least 20 years, I would agree with you. However, that is not always the case and this is not a perfect world that is perfectly climate controlled.

Now my comments are not directed at the Cue Maker who built the shafts in question, he is well respected in the industry, but not all people building cues live up to the standards that you describe above and if they followed your idea they would not be in business very long. This is because wood moves and sometimes no matter how well you preform your craft things will happen over time and if you follow the principle that as a business person your right and the customer is wrong you will not have customers very long.

JIMO

LAlouie
06-29-2010, 03:12 AM
If it was a perfect world that was climate controlled and all cue makers only used the best woods that were well seasoned and slowly turned over at least 20 years, I would agree with you. However, that is not always the case and this is not a perfect world that is perfectly climate controlled.

Now my comments are not directed at the Cue Maker who built the shafts in question, he is well respected in the industry, but not all people building cues live up to the standards that you describe above and if they followed your idea they would not be in business very long. This is because wood moves and sometimes no matter how well you preform your craft things will happen over time and if you follow the principle that as a business person your right and the customer is wrong you will not have customers very long.

JIMO

Then it's a good thing I'm not a cuemaker. :wink: However all those things you mentioned are beyond the cuemaker's control. A cuemaker gets his reputation by putting out a good cue. He doesn't get a good rep if all his cues warped. Thus, if I am good cuemaker with a good rep, then bad warpping is an anomaly. I don't have to go out of my way to make good on it when I don't even know who's fault it is. For all I know, it might be this guy http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-45944-Phoenix-Billiards-Examiner~y2010m6d28-Should-You-Ever-Leave-a-Pool-Cue-in-a-Car-in-Arizona . My reputation and business remains healthy and intact.

Put it another way. If I am Toyota and everyone loves my auto, I'm not going out of my way to fix an aberrant lemon just for one customer. Sh#t happens. But I would recall if a million autos had a problem.

Black-Balled
06-29-2010, 05:52 AM
There's no guarantees, Bub. ...no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. ...what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.


ESPECIALLY if the cue was bought off fleabay.

I'd say it is generally worth the extra few $ to buy from the maker.

Tramp Steamer
06-29-2010, 06:00 AM
I pretty much agree with louie on this point. If a warp occurs in a reputable cuemakers shaft, especially if it is new, the problem is quickly and quietly taken care of and life goes on. :)

greyghost
06-29-2010, 06:11 AM
The wood doesn't care what kind of equiptment you use. ;)

I was thinking the same thing....you could have the best equipment known to the human race and its not going to make one bit of diference if your wood has issues.....

SOULHASSORROW
06-29-2010, 07:51 PM
so i guess im stuck with two warped pieces of fire wood lol!!! anyone want to buy some new espiritu butts lol!!!

butterflycues
06-30-2010, 01:57 AM
It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment. As to who caused the warp, you'll have to work that out with whomever you got the cue from. :)

I don't see what equipment has to do with warpage. That is how the wood is dryed and taken care of.

subdude1974
06-30-2010, 03:00 AM
I myself think there is a difference between taper roll and warped. First let me say a shaft shouldnt bounce on the table. When rolled, the tip and shaft collar should roll smooth. But just because you can see light variances when rolled on a table doesnt mean that it is warped. I myself, have never seen a shaft that didnt have at least a tiny almsot unnoticeable taper roll. A shaft is made by hand. It is round. Who do you know that can draw a perfect circle by hand? Noone. No matter how close it is, it cant be done. Same goes with a shaft. It is circular. Done by hand. To complicate things, the diamter changes from top to bottom. I would love to see someone post a video of them rolling the cue on the table and and show they have a shaft that doesnt show some kind of light variance under the shaft. Not saying one doesnt exhist, but the probability is extremely infinitesimal. JMHO.

greyghost
07-04-2010, 07:57 AM
I myself think there is a difference between taper roll and warped. First let me say a shaft shouldnt bounce on the table. When rolled, the tip and shaft collar should roll smooth. But just because you can see light variances when rolled on a table doesnt mean that it is warped. I myself, have never seen a shaft that didnt have at least a tiny almsot unnoticeable taper roll. A shaft is made by hand. It is round. Who do you know that can draw a perfect circle by hand? Noone. No matter how close it is, it cant be done. Same goes with a shaft. It is circular. Done by hand. To complicate things, the diamter changes from top to bottom. I would love to see someone post a video of them rolling the cue on the table and and show they have a shaft that doesnt show some kind of light variance under the shaft. Not saying one doesnt exhist, but the probability is extremely infinitesimal. JMHO.

First of all everyone should remember that rolling a cue flat on the table does not tell you anything about the straightness of a cue.

Rolling the cue with the joint on the rail and the butt on the table is MUCH MUCH BETTER....you watch the tip and see how it rolls and that tells you how much inline the center of the tip is with the back of the center of the butt of the cue.

THE BEST WAY is to put the cue on a lathe.

Taper rolls happen alot from people hand sanding on their shafts.....remember the tip can be dead inline but you can sand the shaft egg shaped and it will roll on the table all JACKED up but still be "straight" all that changes is the light gap but the shaft ends dont jump

Second is the butt of the cue.....i've personally seen a few cues that seemed to be sort of flat at the points and the finish wasn't round on the forearm......you put them in the lathe and they run straight....you put the shaft on and roll it on the table and it rolls on the flats of the finish and makes the cue jump its ass off....you roll it on the rail and it was dam near perfect....but just rolling that cue on the table made you think it was crooked as sh*t.

Not everything is always as it seems.

Its not how straight the sides of a cue are....its how the tip lines up with the butt that matters the most.

cubswin
07-04-2010, 08:01 AM
It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment. As to who caused the warp, you'll have to work that out with whomever you got the cue from. :)

yeah because maple is a really really modern material.

Roger Long
07-04-2010, 08:57 AM
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

How much does the shaft "lift up" when you roll it? Is it something that can be measured? If it is, and it is only slight - say 1/16" or less - it may be irritating to you to know that the shafts are not perfect, but be advised that this little movement is normal. I have never seen any shafts with a little age on them that have stayed perfectly straight. :(

Roger

justadub
07-04-2010, 09:14 AM
so i guess im stuck with two warped pieces of fire wood lol!!! anyone want to buy some new espiritu butts lol!!!

I'll gladly pay you what you put into the raffle to win them! :grin:

SOULHASSORROW
07-06-2010, 07:45 AM
I'll gladly pay you what you put into the raffle to win them! :grin:

lol. i figure i would roll the shafts on a different 5/16x14 cue. heres the thread killer, the shafts were dead straight lol, the pin on the espiritu is offset by a hair which was causing the slight hesitation when the cue was rolled with the shafts on. i appreciate all the help guys.

Tramp Steamer
07-06-2010, 08:39 AM
I don't see what equipment has to do with warpage. That is how the wood is dryed and taken care of.


By equipment, butter, I was refering to the cue.
The wood is dryed at the supplier, not at the cuemakers, and is usually under 10% moisture content when purchased. Many cuemakers use a sealant during the cue making process to kept the wood stabilized, but I always thought it was a lot of unncesessary time and trouble.
All quality cuemakers, that I know of, send their finished products out straight, and usually with some type of limited warrantee.
Almost all warping is caused by the cue owner through misuse, or poor maintenance, or both. :)

qbilder
07-06-2010, 11:29 AM
lol. i figure i would roll the shafts on a different 5/16x14 cue. heres the thread killer, the shafts were dead straight lol, the pin on the espiritu is offset by a hair which was causing the slight hesitation when the cue was rolled with the shafts on. i appreciate all the help guys.

It's likely the joint face of the butt, not the pin. The pin could be moderately bent or off center and still lock the shafts down straight to roll straight. If the joint face is just a couple thouysandths of an inch from exact square of centerline, then the cue will wobble no matter how straight each component is. It's an easy cheap quick fix, too.

TheCueHunter
07-06-2010, 11:35 AM
I myself think there is a difference between taper roll and warped. First let me say a shaft shouldnt bounce on the table. When rolled, the tip and shaft collar should roll smooth. But just because you can see light variances when rolled on a table doesnt mean that it is warped. I myself, have never seen a shaft that didnt have at least a tiny almsot unnoticeable taper roll. A shaft is made by hand. It is round. Who do you know that can draw a perfect circle by hand? Noone. No matter how close it is, it cant be done. Same goes with a shaft. It is circular. Done by hand. To complicate things, the diamter changes from top to bottom. I would love to see someone post a video of them rolling the cue on the table and and show they have a shaft that doesnt show some kind of light variance under the shaft. Not saying one doesnt exhist, but the probability is extremely infinitesimal. JMHO.

This is the best post in the thread and exactly what I was going to write. Although I actually had an ED PREWITT cue that when rolled had NO VARIANCE, and I have an ED PREWITT cue now that is very close, but thats it.

I dotn even know how many cues I have had but they all had a little variance. Its just the way it is. I would consider a TAPER ROLL a variance in the stroking area that may be worn down a little more due to use. A warp is when the tip or joint comes off the table. IMHO.:thumbup:

Hungarian
07-06-2010, 11:51 AM
lol. i figure i would roll the shafts on a different 5/16x14 cue. heres the thread killer, the shafts were dead straight lol, the pin on the espiritu is offset by a hair which was causing the slight hesitation when the cue was rolled with the shafts on. i appreciate all the help guys.

Dude:
You misled us with your original post. You said, and I quote, "just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded.

You sent everyone on a wild ride and I was about to post a meaningfull reply.

alstl
07-06-2010, 01:30 PM
If the tip doesn't lift off the table I consider it taper roll.