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lfigueroa
06-29-2010, 12:37 PM
And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

BillPorter
06-29-2010, 12:42 PM
And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

Since I'm not a bank pool player and not a strong player of any pool game, I feel perfectly qualified to comment on your questions. IMHO, full-rack banks favors the stronger player. I base this opinion on the widely accepted axiom that anything which makes a game more difficult favors the stronger player. And it seems to me that full-rack bank is more demanding that short-rack bank.

muddawg
06-29-2010, 12:45 PM
I would think that with full rack banks, there would be fewer bank opportunities early on in the rack. So, this would lead to more safety play and moving earlier on as opposed to short rack banks.

I think full rack banks favors the stronger player because:

1. More moving early on
2. More obstacles to have to avoid for a clean bank
3. You have to make more balls

Tom In Cincy
06-29-2010, 12:52 PM
Respectfully Lou....

This is way too many questions for Freddy to answer in a forum.. this just might be the basis for his NEW Book.. 'Banking match UPs .. Spots and how to use them to your advantage'

And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks?

Why and when should one be favored over another;

why one is more popular in one part of the country than another;


and whether one game favors the stronger player,

or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

houmatroy
06-29-2010, 12:58 PM
Full racks have alot more strategies & short racks is more about firepower...not the same but kinda like longrack is like 9ball in a sense & long racks is like one pocket

Cornerman
06-29-2010, 01:09 PM
And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

It's probably a decent analogy to use Rotation vs. 9-ball. Though you need great shooting and safety play in both, Rotation favors the strategist where as 9-ball favors the shotmaker. You see a lot of early tic-tac in full rack banks.

My guess as to why certain areas find one game more popular... possibly the soccer vs. NFL debate. Not enough hitting in soccer.

In either or any case, whatever the game is if it was the game of choice, Efren would end up being the best.

Fred

dabarbr
06-29-2010, 01:46 PM
Full racks have alot more strategies & short racks is more about firepower...not the same but kinda like longrack is like 9ball in a sense & long racks is like one pocket

I like your description. In full rack banks there are more multiple rail banks because of the defense involved. In short rack it is more about firepower with one rail banks. Even the opening break is firepower in shot rack as oppose to safety break in full rack banks.

The Schwartz
06-29-2010, 01:47 PM
... possibly the soccer vs. NFL debate. Not enough hitting in soccer.

Well, that and who wants to watch 90 minutes of people running in circles and faking injuries just to see the game end in a scoreless tie? :grin:

Fatboy
06-29-2010, 03:15 PM
im only the messanger here Lou so dont shoot me, when broomback stayed at my house at my house for a week(he was i town on biz) we spent the nights talking and he said 9 ball banks or less is a bangers game, and full rack is a movers game much like 1P. He said "Only real bank players play anything less than 15 balls". I felt like a idiot,:o:o

I enjoy 9 ball banks alot more than full rack but i have only 6 months of experience. If I grew up in "bank's Country" thats all I would have ever played. in the first 23 years I played pool I played bank 2 times.

freddy the beard
06-29-2010, 04:40 PM
And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

Lou, eliminate the "besides" and you can answer your own question. Just imagine how the better teams in baseball would fare if they played 15 innings instead of 9.
However, 9 ball banks helps a guy with a strong 9 ball break. Full rack is usually played off of a safe break (thats how Bugs and Taylor broke full rack, so that should end that argument). The best banker should play full rack. A strong shot maker can do ok at short rack because of the plethora of nice angle "naturals." The balls dont clog up, most of the pockets remain open, and the balls are all over the table.
Full rack, the pockets are often closed, the balls clogged, and most of the balls clustered on the foot of the table. Multiple rail and off angle banks are often the only shot. They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack.

In Chicago the game of choice is full rack. In Kentucky, Tenn. short rack is played much more. They like to shoot more down there. Their hero is Truman Hogue, an offensive genius. In Chicago the squeeze is the thing. I'd like to think that I was one of the poster boys for that suffocating style. Bugs was famed for off-angle freak banks, was very aggressive, but could play strong safety too.

The best player plays full rack, no question about it. Anybody can shit out playing short rack.
My guy, Riley Jet Johnson, is having trouble getting anybody to play full rack, but there is probably a boat load of short rackers that would have a big chance with him. I wouldnt bet your money on him playing short rack.

Beard

bud green
06-29-2010, 06:36 PM
Am I wrong in saying that there have been a couple of posts on AZ asking anyone in the world to play Tony Fargo full rack banks with no takers or were there stipulations to that bet that prevent the numerous bank masters like Brumback, Gregg, Daulton, Harriman, Miller,etc... from taking their chances?

Gregg, Daulton, and Miller have done fantastic at the DCC....Daulton made more banks than anyone in the ring games it seems before they did the time limit deal where a couple banks at the end are the difference, what prevents these guys from taking a shot?

Is he that good, or am I missing something?

Clearly, full rack banks has more "moves" to it than making a ball on a nine ball break with open lanes and firing away.

cuesmith
06-29-2010, 07:10 PM
And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

Well obviously, and I think you know this Lou, the full rack bank game is much more of a moving game and favors the player who moves better, as in cue ball control and having a plan for either outcome of his making or not making the first bank. It's more like one-pocket but you have to protect 6 pockets instead of one.

In short rack banks, assuming you're required to smash the balls on the break and not break safe, the break is a huge factor. After the break, with only 8 or 9 balls on the table and the balls spread out, there will usually be a lot of shot possibilities but usually one correct shot. Short rack banks is much more offensive, but you still have to use good judgement and not shoot at flyers that if missed will leave your opponent opportunities. There are a lot of "2 way" shots" where you'll call a bank that's possible but you'll concentrate on sticking the rock, having another safety already in mind should you make the bank shot. Momentum is a very strong factor!

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:10 AM
Since I'm not a bank pool player and not a strong player of any pool game, I feel perfectly qualified to comment on your questions. IMHO, full-rack banks favors the stronger player. I base this opinion on the widely accepted axiom that anything which makes a game more difficult favors the stronger player. And it seems to me that full-rack bank is more demanding that short-rack bank.


I like your attitude, Bill. And I think I agree about full rack vs short.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:12 AM
I would think that with full rack banks, there would be fewer bank opportunities early on in the rack. So, this would lead to more safety play and moving earlier on as opposed to short rack banks.

I think full rack banks favors the stronger player because:

1. More moving early on
2. More obstacles to have to avoid for a clean bank
3. You have to make more balls


I think you're right, muddawg. But why do you think short rack is more popular, particularly in certain areas of the country?

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:15 AM
Respectfully Lou....

This is way too many questions for Freddy to answer in a forum.. this just might be the basis for his NEW Book.. 'Banking match UPs .. Spots and how to use them to your advantage'


You may be right, Tom. But every once in a while, Freddy throws a few in the general direction of stie :-)

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:17 AM
Full racks have alot more strategies & short racks is more about firepower...not the same but kinda like longrack is like 9ball in a sense & long racks is like one pocket


I think that part about short rack being more about firepower hits it on the head, houmatroy. But wouldn't the analogy be more like 9ball and rotation? Or do you still prefer 9ball and 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:19 AM
It's probably a decent analogy to use Rotation vs. 9-ball. Though you need great shooting and safety play in both, Rotation favors the strategist where as 9-ball favors the shotmaker. You see a lot of early tic-tac in full rack banks.

My guess as to why certain areas find one game more popular... possibly the soccer vs. NFL debate. Not enough hitting in soccer.

In either or any case, whatever the game is if it was the game of choice, Efren would end up being the best.

Fred


oops, there it is: rotation and 9ball.

What about what equipment the two games are played on, Fred? As in maybe short rack is preferred where there are more bar boxes? Or is short rack more a 9' game?

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:21 AM
I like your description. In full rack banks there are more multiple rail banks because of the defense involved. In short rack it is more about firepower with one rail banks. Even the opening break is firepower in shot rack as oppose to safety break in full rack banks.


Th e few "bumps" games I seen have been short rack and I've seen a lot of multiple rail shots, though I do agree that it's mostly about 1-railers. I would think that with more balls on the table, it would inhibit some of the multi-rail shots...

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:23 AM
im only the messanger here Lou so dont shoot me, when broomback stayed at my house at my house for a week(he was i town on biz) we spent the nights talking and he said 9 ball banks or less is a bangers game, and full rack is a movers game much like 1P. He said "Only real bank players play anything less than 15 balls". I felt like a idiot,:o:o

I enjoy 9 ball banks alot more than full rack but i have only 6 months of experience. If I grew up in "bank's Country" thats all I would have ever played. in the first 23 years I played pool I played bank 2 times.



So, Eric: what did you learn while Brumback was at your place about the game? Did he show you anything you'd care to share?

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:31 AM
Lou, eliminate the "besides" and you can answer your own question. Just imagine how the better teams in baseball would fare if they played 15 innings instead of 9.
However, 9 ball banks helps a guy with a strong 9 ball break. Full rack is usually played off of a safe break (thats how Bugs and Taylor broke full rack, so that should end that argument). The best banker should play full rack. A strong shot maker can do ok at short rack because of the plethora of nice angle "naturals." The balls dont clog up, most of the pockets remain open, and the balls are all over the table.
Full rack, the pockets are often closed, the balls clogged, and most of the balls clustered on the foot of the table. Multiple rail and off angle banks are often the only shot. They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack.

In Chicago the game of choice is full rack. In Kentucky, Tenn. short rack is played much more. They like to shoot more down there. Their hero is Truman Hogue, an offensive genius. In Chicago the squeeze is the thing. I'd like to think that I was one of the poster boys for that suffocating style. Bugs was famed for off-angle freak banks, was very aggressive, but could play strong safety too.

The best player plays full rack, no question about it. Anybody can shit out playing short rack.
My guy, Riley Jet Johnson, is having trouble getting anybody to play full rack, but there is probably a boat load of short rackers that would have a big chance with him. I wouldnt bet your money on him playing short rack.

Beard


Freddy, thank you for your thoughtful answer.

I guess I hadn't thought about the break so much. I figured you'd high power the break at full rack too.

One specific question I have for you though: I know many of the reasons you hit banks at a higher speed, but would there be any advantage to hitting them at 1pocket speed, based on the theory that is you missed, you'd clog that pocket for your adversary's next turn at the table, at one game or the other?

Also, I am curious (and am not looking for an argument -- just clarification): somewhere in your books or tapes you talk about hitting everything without english. But in your answer up there you write "They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack." Could you clarify what you mean by the english part of that?

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:36 AM
Am I wrong in saying that there have been a couple of posts on AZ asking anyone in the world to play Tony Fargo full rack banks with no takers or were there stipulations to that bet that prevent the numerous bank masters like Brumback, Gregg, Daulton, Harriman, Miller,etc... from taking their chances?

Gregg, Daulton, and Miller have done fantastic at the DCC....Daulton made more banks than anyone in the ring games it seems before they did the time limit deal where a couple banks at the end are the difference, what prevents these guys from taking a shot?

Is he that good, or am I missing something?

Clearly, full rack banks has more "moves" to it than making a ball on a nine ball break with open lanes and firing away.



Good question, Bud -- what about Fargo? Somehow he didn't make the great bankers lists in the other thread, but probably should have.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:40 AM
Well obviously, and I think you know this Lou, the full rack bank game is much more of a moving game and favors the player who moves better, as in cue ball control and having a plan for either outcome of his making or not making the first bank. It's more like one-pocket but you have to protect 6 pockets instead of one.

In short rack banks, assuming you're required to smash the balls on the break and not break safe, the break is a huge factor. After the break, with only 8 or 9 balls on the table and the balls spread out, there will usually be a lot of shot possibilities but usually one correct shot. Short rack banks is much more offensive, but you still have to use good judgement and not shoot at flyers that if missed will leave your opponent opportunities. There are a lot of "2 way" shots" where you'll call a bank that's possible but you'll concentrate on sticking the rock, having another safety already in mind should you make the bank shot. Momentum is a very strong factor!


Thanks, Sherm. Could you please talk a bit more about the two-way shots and how you balance safety play with playing position for the run? IOW, do you only play position when you've got a hanger, or what Diliberto calls an "electric chair" shot? Or are there other factors?

Lou Figueroa

jay helfert
06-30-2010, 05:41 AM
You guys pretty well covered it here. Short Rack is a wide open shooters game and Full Rack is a strategic mover's game. I don't mind playing either one, but full rack can take a long time and short rack is quick action. If I think I can beat a guy (or even play close to his speed) I will play either game, just because I enjoy the game and the challenge.

By the way, Bank Pool is the purest game there is on a pool table. You can't luck a ball in! You either win or lose based on your own ability and skill. And no one can sh-t out on you. They have to beat you fair and square. What's wrong with that?

Cornerman
06-30-2010, 05:47 AM
oops, there it is: rotation and 9ball.

What about what equipment the two games are played on, Fred? As in maybe short rack is preferred where there are more bar boxes? Or is short rack more a 9' game?

Lou Figueroa

Honestly, other than goofing around, I've not seen a bar box short rack tournament or gambling set. I'm sure it happens in match ups in bar box country, but I've never seen it.


Fred

jay helfert
06-30-2010, 05:50 AM
Honestly, other than goofing around, I've not seen a bar box short rack tournament or gambling set. I'm sure it happens in match ups in bar box country, but I've never seen it.


Fred

I've probably gambled at Banks a few hundred times in my life and NEVER played it on a bar table. Banks are a little too easy on bar tables imo.

Black-Balled
06-30-2010, 06:28 AM
Well, that and who wants to watch 90 minutes of people running in circles and faking injuries just :grin:

Long rack banks isn't that bad, c'mon!;)

Black-Balled
06-30-2010, 06:33 AM
Freddy, thank you for your thoughtful answer....Also, I am curious ...n your books or tapes you talk about hitting everything without english. But in your answer up there you write "They require much more banking knowledge ...

Lou Figueroa

I hear he planted a few bad 1p seeds in Efren too~!:D:D

TheCueHunter
06-30-2010, 07:39 AM
I've probably gambled at Banks a few hundred times in my life and NEVER played it on a bar table. Banks are a little too easy on bar tables imo.

The last year they had the bar tables upstairs at the executive inn for the derby, Durbin played Tony Coleman getting 6-5 in short rack bank on a bar table. I believe Durbin won around 40,000. That was the year Durbin won all that money at the Derby.

But they for sure played on a bar table

houmatroy
06-30-2010, 08:49 AM
I think that part about short rack being more about firepower hits it on the head, houmatroy. But wouldn't the analogy be more like 9ball and rotation? Or do you still prefer 9ball and 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa

I used short rack bank analogy comparing it to 9ball instead of rotation just because 9ball is mostly fast & loose where as 10ball is more mythological....Good bankers can put packages together as easy as good rotation players do in 9ball...it's in the eye of the beholder.:)

freddy the beard
06-30-2010, 11:55 AM
Freddy, thank you for your thoughtful answer.

I guess I hadn't thought about the break so much. I figured you'd high power the break at full rack too.

One specific question I have for you though: I know many of the reasons you hit banks at a higher speed, but would there be any advantage to hitting them at 1pocket speed, based on the theory that is you missed, you'd clog that pocket for your adversary's next turn at the table, at one game or the other?

Also, I am curious (and am not looking for an argument -- just clarification): somewhere in your books or tapes you talk about hitting everything without english. But in your answer up there you write "They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack." Could you clarify what you mean by the english part of that?

Lou Figueroa

Item: When you have the lead you can lean towards hitting the banks pocket speed in order to clog pockets, discouraging your opponent from scoring and catching up easily. If you sweat my action you can always tell if I am ahead or behind in the score. If I'm behind the table is often open with balls scattered everywhere. When I'm ahead the pockets will be clogged and the balls clustered, on the rails and on one end of the table.

In full rack with pockets blocked and banking lanes closed, you must often manufacture shots and create angles. Oftentimes that involves changing natural angles with english. Natural angles: use natural hits and no english.

Beard

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:10 PM
You guys pretty well covered it here. Short Rack is a wide open shooters game and Full Rack is a strategic mover's game. I don't mind playing either one, but full rack can take a long time and short rack is quick action. If I think I can beat a guy (or even play close to his speed) I will play either game, just because I enjoy the game and the challenge.

By the way, Bank Pool is the purest game there is on a pool table. You can't luck a ball in! You either win or lose based on your own ability and skill. And no one can sh-t out on you. They have to beat you fair and square. What's wrong with that?


Jay, would you say banks is a "purer" game than 14.1?

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:11 PM
Honestly, other than goofing around, I've not seen a bar box short rack tournament or gambling set. I'm sure it happens in match ups in bar box country, but I've never seen it.


Fred



I'm shocked. I mean, I believe you, Fred, but I would have thought that banks would be huge on bar boxes.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:12 PM
I hear he planted a few bad 1p seeds in Efren too~!:D:D


Let's not go there :-)

Lou Figueroa
trying to be good

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:13 PM
The last year they had the bar tables upstairs at the executive inn for the derby, Durbin played Tony Coleman getting 6-5 in short rack bank on a bar table. I believe Durbin won around 40,000. That was the year Durbin won all that money at the Derby.

But they for sure played on a bar table



Well, that's what I would have thought. But now I'm not so sure -- about how common short rack banks is on bar boxes.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:16 PM
Item: When you have the lead you can lean towards hitting the banks pocket speed in order to clog pockets, discouraging your opponent from scoring and catching up easily. If you sweat my action you can always tell if I am ahead or behind in the score. If I'm behind the table is often open with balls scattered everywhere. When I'm ahead the pockets will be clogged and the balls clustered, on the rails and on one end of the table.

In full rack with pockets blocked and banking lanes closed, you must often manufacture shots and create angles. Oftentimes that involves changing natural angles with english. Natural angles: use natural hits and no english.

Beard


ahhh, very good. Thanks, Freddy -- some real good intel there. Thanks.

What do you think of the Tony Fargo question, in general?

In particular, do you like Jet in a match vs Tony?

Lou Figueroa
absolutely not trying to stir anything up
just a hypothetical question

dabarbr
06-30-2010, 08:40 PM
Item: When you have the lead you can lean towards hitting the banks pocket speed in order to clog pockets, discouraging your opponent from scoring and catching up easily. If you sweat my action you can always tell if I am ahead or behind in the score. If I'm behind the table is often open with balls scattered everywhere. When I'm ahead the pockets will be clogged and the balls clustered, on the rails and on one end of the table.

In full rack with pockets blocked and banking lanes closed, you must often manufacture shots and create angles. Oftentimes that involves changing natural angles with english. Natural angles: use natural hits and no english.

Beard

In the situation you describe being ahead in the game and in order to control the white ball it's not unusual to see attempts at difficult one rail banks to the side pocket banking off the short rail. Something you will only see when it's critical to control the cue ball to a specific location. In other games this shot is a last resort.

jay helfert
06-30-2010, 11:05 PM
Jay, would you say banks is a "purer" game than 14.1?

Lou Figueroa

Here's your answer - in a Straight Pool match I've seen a player shoot at the corner pocket and miss, the object ball then goes four rails and falls into the same corner pocket. Count one for the shooter. You can't do that in Bank Pool!

lfigueroa
07-01-2010, 05:14 AM
Here's your answer - in a Straight Pool match I've seen a player shoot at the corner pocket and miss, the object ball then goes four rails and falls into the same corner pocket. Count one for the shooter. You can't do that in Bank Pool!


OK, sure. I've also had balls bobble out of one pocket, go cross table, and back into the called pocket. Or how about calling a ball out of the stack, having it hang up, and another comes along and knocks it in?

But I'm not so sure the luck, no luck element, is the best way to decide on what the purest form pool is. I kind of like the Joe Balsis quote that was in the instructional section of BD, I think last month, and goes something like: Every pool game is a derivative of 14.1.

Lou Figueroa

freddy the beard
07-01-2010, 08:11 AM
ahhh, very good. Thanks, Freddy -- some real good intel there. Thanks.

What do you think of the Tony Fargo question, in general?

In particular, do you like Jet in a match vs Tony?

Lou Figueroa
absolutely not trying to stir anything up
just a hypothetical question

I think Tony Fargo is the most dangerous, big money, full-rack bank pool player in the country. (Provided he is still playing the same speed of a few years ago, and has not fallen back on the bottle) He is who I would least like to play today if I was playing my top speed of 25 years ago.

Jet is playing great, and with a lot of confidence, but I would make Fargo a 9 to 8 favorite.

Beard