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View Full Version : Here It Is The SILVER GINACUE


kvinbrwr
06-30-2010, 10:37 AM
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land). Ernie was kind enough to show the Silver Gina and Joe ran and got whatever camera he had and shot with the light available in Ernie's shop. I was a little surprised that Ernie allowed the pictures and very surprised when he gave me permission to post them on AZ. I consider this a rather rare treat and that's why I'm posting them here in the Main rather than in cue gallery. My thanks to Kam for inspiring Ernie, Joe for taking the best pics he could in those conditions, and of course, to Ernie for the permission (and for building this monster to begin with).

Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.

I deal in high-end collectibles and the Silver Gina is one of the few instances I can think of where a collectible of high value has been retained in the possession of the person who actually created it. Generally a historically collectible piece gets valued by what it sells or auctions for as it gets passed up the chain from collector to collector to gallery and museums. The Silver Gina is valued in a different way, as it has never been sold. It is valued by the offers Ernie has turned down. Starting in 1966 at turning down the unheard of at that time sum of $3,000 all the way up to modern times with him refusing a purported $350K.

Here it is:

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg1.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg2.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg3.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg4.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg5.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg6.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg7.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg8.jpg

tucson9ball
06-30-2010, 10:45 AM
Yowza!!!!!:thumbup:

sunnyday
06-30-2010, 10:46 AM
Wow, thanks for sharing Cue History :) Amazing Cue!!!

S.

TATE
06-30-2010, 10:53 AM
Wow - incredible job Kevin.

Chris

triley41395
06-30-2010, 10:56 AM
Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.

Just say it...You want this for your NEW new lifetime player..:thumbup:..
It definetly shows talent after only building cues for such a short time back then.

kvinbrwr
06-30-2010, 10:59 AM
Wow - incredible job Kevin.

Chris

Chris

LOL. As always, what did I do ? A little arranging. Ernie built it, Kam inspired him to show it off, Joe took and edited the pictures.

Me ? I played with the dogs.

Nice piece of history there though. Please notice, 2 shafts and joint protectors in 1966. It blows my mind that Ernie was in the trade 3 years when he built this masterpiece.

Thanks man

Kevin

pocono
06-30-2010, 11:00 AM
Kevin,
Beautiful cue and case. I held this cue in my hands back in 1992 at the cue show in Maryland.

elvicash
06-30-2010, 11:04 AM
Wow That is really cool.

CrossSideLarry
06-30-2010, 11:06 AM
Thank you for posting the pics. I have the dubious honor of being the first to view them. I also have the dubious honor of owning the Gina cue that Ernie appears holding in the pool book, "Shooting Pool", text by Mike Shamos and photographs by George Bennett. My cue is pictured opposite page 33.
Dur my first trip to Ernie's shop in North Hollywood, CA., Ernie signed the page with the following:

Larry

This is the cue I chose to be photographed with

It is your cue. Hit it straight.

Signed in his immicapable hand writing, "Ernie Gutierrez"

I have seen the silver cue in person and yes, it is an awesome representation of Ernie's singular skills. I also agree with you about all Gina cues are meant to be played. While I have owned numerous high dollar cues over the years, the Gina plays like no other. My Jack Madden and Jim Buss cues are awesome playing cues also. I too have turned down numerous offers for all three cues. As soon as someone shows me how, I will post some pictures of them.

Cross-Side-Larry "Learn from the best, and beat the rest"

JimmyRayK
06-30-2010, 11:06 AM
Kevin, thanks for posting.

I was at Ernie's shop a couple of weeks ago (a long way from Indiana LOL) and was lucky enough to see and hold this piece of cue history. This cue was sooooo far ahead of it's time. 1966, are you freakin' kidding me.

I can hardly wait for my next project with Ernie to finish up................

JimmyK

ScottR
06-30-2010, 11:12 AM
Three words....

Holy-frickin-moley!!!

I was talking to someone late yesterday who told me that Kam got to see the cue. We both remarked that the cue is almost older than either of us. And, it is older than probably 75% of the people on this forum.

Such a high level cue, done at such a relatively low level of experience just blows my mind.

What next? HD footage of the Loch Ness monster???

Scott

Big_H515
06-30-2010, 11:19 AM
.................................
Not an edit, just a supreme lack of words.

Black-Balled
06-30-2010, 11:20 AM
speechless!!!!!!!!

floppybear
06-30-2010, 11:26 AM
So if he wanted to take that cue on board a plane...as happened to me the airport would insist on having it checked in. Would the airport insure that cue for $500k? That is one heck of a cue!

pulldapin
06-30-2010, 11:42 AM
Thank you. Is there any info on the golden Balabushka. My interest has been peeked.

Chi2dxa
06-30-2010, 11:48 AM
MAN if one Silver bullet can take down a single Werewolf just think of the damage you could do walking into a pool room full of them with this Silver Gina cue!!!!


Not my type of cue but it is the most beautiful not my type of cue I have ever seen!!!

Very Very Nice!!!

TheMarsMan
06-30-2010, 12:03 PM
I think he should of taken the 350K if he was truly offered the money.

cbaumann212
06-30-2010, 12:05 PM
I think he should of taken the 350K if he was truly offered the money.

Are you going to be at the Dayton cue show again this year?

DogsPlayingPool
06-30-2010, 12:17 PM
Specs, please.

TheMarsMan
06-30-2010, 12:19 PM
Are you going to be at the Dayton cue show again this year?

Yes I am planning on attending, it was a great time last year!!! I think I may just bring my Szam's this year though, it was a lot of work bringing all the cues last time.

Mike in MN
06-30-2010, 12:32 PM
An incredible piece of pool cue history. Thanks for sharing :)

kvinbrwr
06-30-2010, 01:59 PM
Specs, please.

It's really large

big

monstrously huge

Thanks

Kevin

JoeyA
06-30-2010, 02:02 PM
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
thanks,

TATE
06-30-2010, 02:42 PM
It's really large

big

monstrously huge

Thanks

Kevin

There is a wobble in the wallet area but it doesn't affect the play.

Chris

The Schwartz
06-30-2010, 02:47 PM
Holy cow, that cue is unreal. I think I would have taken 350 g's for it though.

Cuebuddy
06-30-2010, 02:57 PM
The first time I had seen pics of this cue was in 1995 when the Denver Post did a article on collectible pool cues and highlighted David Kikel and Ernie Martinez. It says in the article that Ernie Gutierrez had turned down $70,000 for it once. This was a very good piece on cues and the craftsmen who make them.

greyghost
06-30-2010, 02:58 PM
WOW thanks for the treat!

TATE
06-30-2010, 03:00 PM
It says in the article that Ernie Gutierrez had turned down $70,000 for it once.

$350,000 is inflation adjusted.

Cuebuddy
06-30-2010, 03:27 PM
$350,000 is inflation adjusted.

I hear you:(;). The article quoted Ernie G and he said he was going to make another cue very similar to his silver cue but it would be made out of gold. I wonder if that ever happened.

ShootingRazbone
06-30-2010, 04:23 PM
...............Excuse me while I pick up my jaw!

berlowmj2
06-30-2010, 04:28 PM
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land). Ernie was kind enough to show the Silver Gina and Joe ran and got whatever camera he had and shot with the light available in Ernie's shop. I was a little surprised that Ernie allowed the pictures and very surprised when he gave me permission to post them on AZ. I consider this a rather rare treat and that's why I'm posting them here in the Main rather than in cue gallery. My thanks to Kam for inspiring Ernie, Joe for taking the best pics he could in those conditions, and of course, to Ernie for the permission (and for building this monster to begin with).

Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.

I deal in high-end collectibles and the Silver Gina is one of the few instances I can think of where a collectible of high value has been retained in the possession of the person who actually created it. Generally a historically collectible piece gets valued by what it sells or auctions for as it gets passed up the chain from collector to collector to gallery and museums. The Silver Gina is valued in a different way, as it has never been sold. It is valued by the offers Ernie has turned down. Starting in 1966 at turning down the unheard of at that time sum of $3,000 all the way up to modern times with him refusing a purported $350K.

Here it is:

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg1.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg2.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg3.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg4.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg5.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg6.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg7.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg8.jpg

Who offered $350,000?

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:01 PM
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land). Ernie was kind enough to show the Silver Gina and Joe ran and got whatever camera he had and shot with the light available in Ernie's shop. I was a little surprised that Ernie allowed the pictures and very surprised when he gave me permission to post them on AZ. I consider this a rather rare treat and that's why I'm posting them here in the Main rather than in cue gallery. My thanks to Kam for inspiring Ernie, Joe for taking the best pics he could in those conditions, and of course, to Ernie for the permission (and for building this monster to begin with).

Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.

I deal in high-end collectibles and the Silver Gina is one of the few instances I can think of where a collectible of high value has been retained in the possession of the person who actually created it. Generally a historically collectible piece gets valued by what it sells or auctions for as it gets passed up the chain from collector to collector to gallery and museums. The Silver Gina is valued in a different way, as it has never been sold. It is valued by the offers Ernie has turned down. Starting in 1966 at turning down the unheard of at that time sum of $3,000 all the way up to modern times with him refusing a purported $350K.

Here it is:

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg1.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg2.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg3.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg4.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg5.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg6.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg7.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg8.jpg



Holy moley. A new standard in cue porn -- and I mean that in the nicest possible way. Thanks for sharing!

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
06-30-2010, 05:06 PM
I think he should of taken the 350K if he was truly offered the money.


I'm not sure I agree.

As in all fields of collectibles, there are those very rare one-of-a-kind items that develop a certain je ne sais qua, a mystique if you will, that only enhances their end value in the community that covets them.

Whether Ernie, or his heirs, eventually sell The Sliver Gina for more or less, it can't be argued that even anecdotal stories like this only enhance the cue's desirability and true end value amongst the rich cognoscenti.

Lou Figueroa

kvinbrwr
06-30-2010, 05:54 PM
I'm not sure I agree.

As in all fields of collectibles, there are those very rare one-of-a-kind items that develop a certain je ne sais qua, a mystic if you will, that only enhances their end value in the community that covets them.

Whether Ernie, or his heirs, eventually sell The Sliver Gina for more or less, it can't be argued that even anecdotal stories like this only enhance the cue's desirability and true end value amongst the rich cognoscenti.

Lou Figueroa

Lou

Absolutely. The point can't be what he should have ever sold the cue for as in "what's reasonable". Ernie has made and sold, what ? 3000 cues in his time as a cue maker, clearly he knows what a reasonable price for his goods are, he sells them as fast as he can make them. What did Balabushka charge for a cue in 1966? $100 bucks ? Clearly $3000 was an exorbitant amount of money for a cue in 1966 and Ernie turned it down, thus spinning up the value of the cue. Meantime for 50 years Ernie has enhanced his reputation as a cue maker and allure to collectors and thus the value of this cue. Its silly to discuss what he should or should not have accepted for this cue, clearly in 44 years he's had several "reasonable" offers and by not accepting them he has helped create what this cue is. To say what he should have done or what you would do if you were him is silly. What he has done is create one of the most collectible cues in the history of cue making and he has managed to hang on to it himself.

Thanks

Kevin

measureman
06-30-2010, 06:18 PM
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land). Ernie was kind enough to show the Silver Gina and Joe ran and got whatever camera he had and shot with the light available in Ernie's shop. I was a little surprised that Ernie allowed the pictures and very surprised when he gave me permission to post them on AZ. I consider this a rather rare treat and that's why I'm posting them here in the Main rather than in cue gallery. My thanks to Kam for inspiring Ernie, Joe for taking the best pics he could in those conditions, and of course, to Ernie for the permission (and for building this monster to begin with).

Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.

I deal in high-end collectibles and the Silver Gina is one of the few instances I can think of where a collectible of high value has been retained in the possession of the person who actually created it. Generally a historically collectible piece gets valued by what it sells or auctions for as it gets passed up the chain from collector to collector to gallery and museums. The Silver Gina is valued in a different way, as it has never been sold. It is valued by the offers Ernie has turned down. Starting in 1966 at turning down the unheard of at that time sum of $3,000 all the way up to modern times with him refusing a purported $350K.

Here it is:

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg1.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg2.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg3.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg4.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg5.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg6.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg7.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg8.jpg

Anybody that refuses 350k for a pool cue is just plan goofy.

kvinbrwr
06-30-2010, 06:27 PM
There is a wobble in the wallet area but it doesn't affect the play.

Chris

Chris

What happens when you buy a cue of this magnitude (not that I know) is your balance goes way off kilter. If you carry your wallet in your right rear pocket, you find that area all of a sudden way light and its tough to stay down over a shot with your butt floating up and away like that. That's where all the silver work comes in, weighting you back down.

Look at those shafts. Ernie would screw this baby together and break and play with it.

Thanks

Kevin

LAlouie
06-30-2010, 06:30 PM
Pre-CNC makes this cue all the more special. When you think about it, there's no reason to sell the cue. You can't replace it(well, you kinda can but it wouldn't be the same), and Ernie doesn't need the cash.

junksecret
06-30-2010, 07:12 PM
While I did indeed take the pictures, I've seen the cue many times and never thought to shoot it before, so you did the most important part, asking Ernie's permission and making me grab a camera out of my trunk. While I wish I'd of had better camera gear with me and more time to use it, I'm pleased you're able to share the cue with so many people.

The previous poster is correct that Ernie doesn't need the money (certainly not in cash) and that cue's value, like so many of Ernie's cues, will only go in one direction, up.

Ernie and I are good friends and I have spent 100's of hours in his shop. I believe I have seen him perform every step in his cue making and having done so only increases my respect for him as a cuemaker, and my pride in having him as a friend. I've never seen anyone more exacting with their product or less willing to accept an imperfection.

I used to think that him using a CNC meant he put material in and cues came out, which couldn't be further from the truth. While I think it allows him to be more exacting, it often increases his time for a task vs. doing it by hand. I would guess if he produced cues in a production line fashion, the opposite would be the case.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox and just add, that cue is an amazing piece of history.

Joe

P.S. Here's a couple of abstracts that I like, both of Ernie's cues

http://www.joerichland.com/pics/Abstract2.jpg

http://www.joerichland.com/pics/Abstract4.jpg

Black-Balled
07-01-2010, 05:51 AM
What a treat for us to see.

I think I peed my pants a bit.

gdc25
07-01-2010, 08:50 AM
just a bump, because I hate to see this thread move past the first page.

kvinbrwr
07-01-2010, 11:32 AM
just a bump, because I hate to see this thread move past the first page.

I'm glad the cue is being enjoyed.

Joe's pics came out good. Cues are hard to photograph, as is silver.

Thanks

Kevin

Neil
07-01-2010, 12:18 PM
.............

Mt. Cheverest
07-01-2010, 12:27 PM
That is one incredible pool cue. JEALOUS!!

HeLLFiSH
07-01-2010, 12:52 PM
Amusing, because if some unknown cue maker put up these pictures for a sample of his work, I believe he would get slammed on this forum. Yet, because it's a Ginacue, people drool over the same cue.

The wood points are not even, from what I have read on here, that is a minus. The scroll work on the silver, especially the areas that the lines go into a 'circle', look like his hand was pretty shaky at the time. Seems like that would also be a big minus to people evaluating it.


You also have to take into account the age of the cue, and the time at which it was being made. It was made in 1966, when the technology for doing the engraving wasnt computer controlled, or for cutting point grooves for even-ness. Back then, everything was harder to do and the final product was this beauty.

If an unknown cuemaker were to make a cue of this caliber, I wouldnt slam it, rather I'd try to find out who it is and maybe get one before he becomes famous and the price goes up.

Philthepockets
07-01-2010, 01:08 PM
I'm not a cue collector, so I looked at this cue in a different light than most on here probably did. It looks like a nice cue, but not my preference of style. I did notice a few things though, that seem to be totally overlooked. A few things that I found a little amusing.

Amusing, because if some unknown cue maker put up these pictures for a sample of his work, I believe he would get slammed on this forum. Yet, because it's a Ginacue, people drool over the same cue.

The wood points are not even, from what I have read on here, that is a minus. The scroll work on the silver, especially the areas that the lines go into a 'circle', look like his hand was pretty shaky at the time. Seems like that would also be a big minus to people evaluating it.

Not slamming this cue at all, like I said, I just find it amusing that different standards seem to be in play depending on the name on the cue.

Probably the same reasons (not clear to me either) why I see Sneaky Petes built by famous builders command three times the price of anyone elses. I agree with you that while I appreciate the remarkable craftsmanship I don't find it beautiful at all, sorry :embarrassed2:

lfigueroa
07-01-2010, 01:49 PM
Probably the same reasons (not clear to me either) why I see Sneaky Petes built by famous builders command three times the price of anyone elses. I agree with you that while I appreciate the remarkable craftsmanship I don't find it beautiful at all, sorry :embarrassed2:


Granted, everyone's taste is different.

But I will tell you that for many of us growing up on the West Coast in the 60's, the cues Ernie (and Tad) were making were what you coveted. They were the coolest looking cues. They were the ones you hoped one day you would own. Back then ALL the top players were playing with their cues. I can't speak for the LA crowd, but around San Francisco you could go into a room and see half a dozen Ginas in play, usually in the hands of the very best players. So many of us are hard-wired to love the look of his cues.

The Silver Gina is a riff on one of Ernie's classic designs, now copied by just about everybody. I get why some would not find it a beautiful cue. But there is a whole group of us that do find it an incredible piece of craftsmanship and a true work of art.

Lou Figueroa

TATE
07-01-2010, 04:13 PM
Who offered $350,000?

Actually, the story is in the Blue Book and has been told for many years. It basically says that in 1966, this cue was offered for sale for $3500 and it remained unsold. Later, a collector who refused the cue at $3500 offered $300,000 for it. It wasn't disclosed who the collector was.

Keep this in mind. When Ernie was selling cues in the early 1960's they were $65. By the end of the 1960's, he was a star and his clientele consisted of celebrities, movie stars and athletes. His cues were selling for several thousand dollars - unheard of at the time. It was probably some rich guy trying to tempt Ernie to sell the cue. It's not for sale, so it doesn't really matter.

Had he not started making cues again after his haitus in 1973 - 1988, my guess is all those early cues would all be priced somewhere in the Balabushka realm.

Just a side note that Ernie was quite gracious to allow the cue to be photographed and shown.


Chris

TATE
07-01-2010, 04:20 PM
Granted, everyone's taste is different.

But I will tell you that for many of us growing up on the West Coast in the 60's, the cues Ernie (and Tad) were making were what you coveted. They were the coolest looking cues. They were the ones you hoped one day you would own. Back then ALL the top players were playing with their cues. I can't speak for the LA crowd, but around San Francisco you could go into a room and see half a dozen Ginas in play, usually in the hands of the very best players. So many of us are hard-wired to love the look of his cues.

The Silver Gina is a riff on one of Ernie's classic designs, now copied by just about everybody. I get why some would not find it a beautiful cue. But there is a whole group of us that do find it an incredible piece of craftsmanship and a true work of art.

Lou Figueroa

Speaking of Tad's.... on behalf of a cue collecting friend, I drove down to Tad's office one day and presented an offer - my friend wanted to order an ivory Tad for up to $50,000 cash.

I met with Fred who could not say "no" fast enough. I would have been back thrown out like a vacuum cleaner salesman if I did not quickly change the subject and present them with a gift of a framed photograph of a rare Tad collection.

He then politely explained to me the ivory Tad's cannot be ordered, no matter the cost, at all. Not for sale, no matter what, no matter how much.

That tends to drive prices up.

Chris

ScottR
07-01-2010, 07:02 PM
Speaking of Tad's.... on behalf of a cue collecting friend, I drove down to Tad's office one day and presented an offer - my friend wanted to order an ivory Tad for up to $50,000 cash.

I met with Fred who could not say "no" fast enough. I would have been back thrown out like a vacuum cleaner salesman if I did not quickly change the subject and present them with a gift of a framed photograph of a rare Tad collection.

He then politely explained to me the ivory Tad's cannot be ordered, no matter the cost, at all. Not for sale, no matter what, no matter how much.

That tends to drive prices up.

Chris

Chris, is that because they don't want to work with ivory or some other reason?

Scott

kvinbrwr
07-01-2010, 07:28 PM
Chris, is that because they don't want to work with ivory or some other reason?

Scott

Scott

I think its more along the lines of the Koharas protecting the huge monetary investment they have asked the collectors to make in order to acquire an ivory Tad. If there's 20 of them in existence their value is determined by that supply and demand, but if all of a sudden the Koharas decide to mass produce them and there are 400 of them in existence, they've hurt the people (almost all Japanese from my understanding) that have forked over huge bucks to own an ivory Tad.

Its protection, and respect (I think).

Kevin

kvinbrwr
07-01-2010, 07:34 PM
Actually, the story is in the Blue Book and has been told for many years. It basically says that in 1966, this cue was offered for sale for $3500 and it remained unsold. Later, a collector who refused the cue at $3500 offered $300,000 for it. It wasn't disclosed who the collector was.

Keep this in mind. When Ernie was selling cues in the early 1960's they were $65. By the end of the 1960's, he was a star and his clientele consisted of celebrities, movie stars and athletes. His cues were selling for several thousand dollars - unheard of at the time. It was probably some rich guy trying to tempt Ernie to sell the cue. It's not for sale, so it doesn't really matter.

Had he not started making cues again after his haitus in 1973 - 1988, my guess is all those early cues would all be priced somewhere in the Balabushka realm.

Just a side note that Ernie was quite gracious to allow the cue to be photographed and shown.


Chris

Chris

That's very interesting speculation about the value of his 1962-1973 sticks if he hadn't gone back into the business of making cues.

Thanks

Kevin

TATE
07-01-2010, 07:50 PM
Chris, is that because they don't want to work with ivory or some other reason?

Scott

Tad makes them himself and was able to make about one a year - they are fancy, difficult, and time consuming - my understandin is they were promised to Lucky in Japan. Everybody expects perfect work and working with ivory is not forgiving.

Despite the $25,000 to $50,000 price tags, if you asked the Tad's where the profitable business is - I would almost bet their answer would be making the plain maple Tad's that sell for $1200. They can pobably make 200 of them for every one of his fancy ivory cues.

But the ivory cues will be his legacy. Tad is brilliant and those are museum pieces. They are literally worth more than gold. It's hard to find pictures of them but there is one on the back of the 3rd edition Blue Book.

By the way, the Silver Ginacue was on the cover of the 2nd Edition Blue Book.

Chris

SOULHASSORROW
07-01-2010, 09:45 PM
its like the excaliber of cues lol!!!

AnitoKid
07-02-2010, 12:03 AM
Stunningly beautiful! And I kid you not!

Many thanks for sharing!

.



Here it is:

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg1.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg2.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg3.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg4.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg5.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg6.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg7.jpg

http://www.chinasyndrome.net/silverg8.jpg

HighEndCues
07-02-2010, 05:10 AM
Tad makes them himself and was able to make about one a year - they are fancy, difficult, and time consuming - my understandin is they were promised to Lucky in Japan. Everybody expects perfect work and working with ivory is not forgiving.


Hey Chris,
I've owned several Ivory Tads. They are truely beautiful... I'll try to dig some pictures out for you..
There are reasons the Ivory Tads are not available to the public, that is a private matter.. They aren't all promised to Lucky.
Best,
Ken

kvinbrwr
07-03-2010, 12:34 PM
Hey Chris,
I've owned several Ivory Tads. They are truely beautiful... I'll try to dig some pictures out for you..
There are reasons the Ivory Tads are not available to the public, that is a private matter.. They aren't all promised to Lucky.
Best,
Ken

Ken

I knew Lucky didn't have an exclusive because I think the last ivory Tad I've seen you were involved in.

Thanks

Kevin

kamdaswani
07-04-2010, 05:08 AM
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land).

it was definitely a good day ;)

and it was nice to finally meet....
kam

kvinbrwr
07-04-2010, 07:36 AM
it was definitely a good day ;)

and it was nice to finally meet....
kam

Kam

It was my pleasure meeting you. It was fun.

Thanks

Kevin

fbrent1972
07-11-2010, 09:30 PM
I was at Johnston City in 1968 (I believe) when Ernie came there to take orders for his cues. He brought the Silver Ginacue and offered it then for $4,000. I ordered a player that was $115 the best I can recall. One collector I talked to a few years back told me he had offered $100,000 for the Silver Ginacue.

Frank B

kvinbrwr
07-17-2010, 07:46 PM
I was at Johnston City in 1968 (I believe) when Ernie came there to take orders for his cues. He brought the Silver Ginacue and offered it then for $4,000. I ordered a player that was $115 the best I can recall. One collector I talked to a few years back told me he had offered $100,000 for the Silver Ginacue.

Frank B

Frank

I love that story thanks for telling it. You ordering that player cue from Ernie shows the Silver Gina did it's job. It must have been great to have been at Johnston City.

Thanks again

Kevin

u12armresl
07-17-2010, 07:57 PM
I 100% agree Neil.

Or say a particular person works on a table and because of the title he gave himself it's the best table around.



I'm not a cue collector, so I looked at this cue in a different light than most on here probably did. It looks like a nice cue, but not my preference of style. I did notice a few things though, that seem to be totally overlooked. A few things that I found a little amusing.

Amusing, because if some unknown cue maker put up these pictures for a sample of his work, I believe he would get slammed on this forum. Yet, because it's a Ginacue, people drool over the same cue.

The wood points are not even, from what I have read on here, that is a minus. The scroll work on the silver, especially the areas that the lines go into a 'circle', look like his hand was pretty shaky at the time. Seems like that would also be a big minus to people evaluating it.

Not slamming this cue at all, like I said, I just find it amusing that different standards seem to be in play depending on the name on the cue.

$TAKE HOR$E
07-18-2010, 07:56 AM
How does it play.

HighEndCues
07-19-2010, 02:29 PM
Ken

I knew Lucky didn't have an exclusive because I think the last ivory Tad I've seen you were involved in.

Thanks

Kevin

Hi Keven,
I've had a few Ivory Tads.. I don't have exclusive dibs either..
I've been lucky to have owned them..
Best,
Ken

TATE
07-19-2010, 02:47 PM
Hi Keven,
I've had a few Ivory Tads.. I don't have exclusive dibs either..
I've been lucky to have owned them..
Best,
Ken

Ken,

I realize it might be a touchy subject, but if you do have pics of one you can show, it would be appreciated.

These are real High End Cues too - no doubt!

By the way, anybody who ever gets a chance to see Ken Kerner's display at the ICCS - do it!

Chris

Birk1
07-26-2010, 07:18 PM
bumping a legendary cue

AK-Stick
09-05-2010, 11:18 PM
Kevin, i was reading your post and noticed that Ernie was 69. He appears in great health and i wish him continued great health for years to come. I am just wondering if he is considering retiring anytime or if he intends to continue building cues until he can not.

kvinbrwr
09-06-2010, 05:12 AM
Kevin, i was reading your post and noticed that Ernie was 69. He appears in great health and i wish him continued great health for years to come. I am just wondering if he is considering retiring anytime or if he intends to continue building cues until he can not.

I do think he intends to build cues all his life and he doesn't appear to be anywhere close to stopping soon.

He does plan on attending and exhibiting in this years ICCS.

After that he has his 50th (has anyone else done this ? Tad could I guess) Anniversary cues coming out in 2012.

Ernie works 9 hours a day, 6 days a week and really loves what he does. He works on his feet all day and is always up to go to the pool room afterwords and will play me for 3 hours without ever taking a seat (although I don't really play well enough to ever convince my opponents to sit). He gets so caught up in what he does in that fabulous shop that he literally has to be reminded to eat.

Pool is an amazing sport filled with amazing guys. Ernie Gutierrez is one of them.

Thanks

Kevin

kvinbrwr
01-09-2011, 08:10 PM
There's a great Balabushka (with the original shipping box) being displayed in the Gallery section and the question of who started joint protectors came up. This cue was finished in 1966 and has them. I've seen Harvey Martins with protectors, does anyone have a Martin with jps dated prior to 1966?

Thanks

Kevin

kvinbrwr
01-09-2011, 08:46 PM
Thank you. Is there any info on the golden Balabushka. My interest has been peeked.

I believe that both the broker or dealers for the Golden Balabushka and the Last Gus is a (or are) member(s) here at AZ (sorry I think I know who handled the Last Gus and I'm not sure if he also did the Golden Balabushka).

Thanks

Kevin

12squared
01-09-2011, 08:52 PM
There's a great Balabushka (with the original shipping box) being displayed in the Gallery section and the question of who started joint protectors came up. This cue was finished in 1966 and has them. I've seen Harvey Martins with protectors, does anyone have a Martin with jps dated prior to 1966?

Thanks

Kevin

I thought I had a Martin older than 66, with original JPs for the shafts only, but after double checking, it was made in 68. So I guess I didn't have to post anything at all, huh? :grin::o I guess I just wanted to play, too.

Dave

kvinbrwr
01-09-2011, 08:56 PM
I thought I had a Martin older than 66, with original JPs for the shafts only, but after double checking, it was made in 68. So I guess I didn't have to post anything at all, huh? :grin::o I guess I just wanted to play, too.

Dave

Dave

You can play, you just can't win with that kinda newish 1968 Martin. You gotta dig deeper, come up with some Paradise or something.

Thanks

Kevin

SpiderWebComm
01-09-2011, 09:07 PM
If I owned that cue and someone offered me $350k, I'd trip over myself trying to sell it. That's NOT a knock on the cue--- the cue is breathtaking. But let's be real.... $350k for a cue that isn't dipped in 24 carat gold is ridiculous.

Dave

12squared
01-09-2011, 09:13 PM
Dave

You can play, you just can't win with that kinda newish 1968 Martin. You gotta dig deeper, come up with some Paradise or something.

Thanks

Kevin

My wife's all ready yelling at me for digging up the house to find that one. I would be happy to dig in your house, I love your cues.

Dave

DogsPlayingPool
01-09-2011, 09:20 PM
My wife's all ready yelling at me for digging up the house to find that one. I would be happy to dig in your house, I love your cues.

Dave

If you want to enjoy Kevin's cues, it's probably best to move into his house. That way you can see them as they pass through. :D

jay helfert
01-09-2011, 09:25 PM
This cue belongs in the Smithsonian! Seriously!

beetle
01-09-2011, 09:41 PM
This cue belongs in the Smithsonian! Seriously!

Since I work at the Smithsonian, you can just have it sent to me and I'll deliver it sometime in the next decade or so.

Scott Lee
01-09-2011, 09:50 PM
Scott...While Ernie may not have had a lot of cuemaking experience, he was already a master machinist and woodworker for many years. I'm sure that had a lot to do with him being able to build a great cue from the get-go! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Three words....

Holy-frickin-moley!!!

I was talking to someone late yesterday who told me that Kam got to see the cue. We both remarked that the cue is almost older than either of us. And, it is older than probably 75% of the people on this forum.

Such a high level cue, done at such a relatively low level of experience just blows my mind.

What next? HD footage of the Loch Ness monster???

Scott

12squared
01-09-2011, 10:21 PM
If you want to enjoy Kevin's cues, it's probably best to move into his house. That way you can see them as they pass through. :D

Funny, but true :) Kevin, make up my room please.

Fatboy
01-09-2011, 11:39 PM
i offered $300,000 for it a few years ago. Ernie turned it down, its one hell of a cue.

toimbrad
01-10-2011, 07:53 AM
...wow ...wow and...HOLY WOW!!!

kvinbrwr
01-10-2011, 08:14 AM
Funny, but true :) Kevin, make up my room please.

Dave

It is true. Lots of great stuff passes through my hands, but my thrill is in the acquisition and the selling, collecting or holding or displaying stuff holds no allure for me.

I go to lots of brick and mortar auctions in LA, been doing it for some time and most everybody knows me. So last week I was standing in the back with the dealers, bidding up a storm, when this pretty new girl (probably really hitting on me) asked, "what do you collect ? you bid on everything"
One of the dealers nest me to explained to her, "he collects Benjamins". Funny but unfortunately lately the profits been just like the items I get, just briefly passing through my hands on the way out the door.

Thanks

Kevin

kvinbrwr
01-10-2011, 08:31 AM
i offered $300,000 for it a few years ago. Ernie turned it down, its one hell of a cue.

Eric

I look at this cue and I'm just in wonder that Ernie made it more than 40 years ago after being in the biz for 3 years. It was like he could see the future and know he was going to be a legend.

But the proof that Ernie could see into the future was him putting the birthday (on the case) of one of the few people in the world that would grow up to be rich enough, and crazy enough, to want to buy a cue like this. There he was on the day you were born, creating one of the most collectible cues ever. If that's not fate I don't know what is.

Hope all is well.

Thanks

Kevin

poolhustler
01-10-2011, 08:47 AM
Enough talk about a shoddy cue, built by some hack over 30 whatever years ago....

I Want My Crown Back!!

Besides Kevin, you only have it with an *.

You don't have the real crown anyways.

:D

kvinbrwr
01-10-2011, 09:10 AM
Enough talk about a shoddy cue, built by some hack over 30 whatever years ago....

I Want My Crown Back!!

Besides Kevin, you only have it with an *.

You don't have the real crown anyways.

:D


I don't know what this "crown" talk is, I am in possession of the Sunland/Tujunga World Heavyweight Championship 9 Ball Belt and am enjoying the fruits of my victory with the Sunland/Tujunga Watermelon Festival Queen. Its good to have the belt.

If you want the belt, there's only one way to get it, and making empty claims about some crown is not it.

Thanks

Kevin (you can call me Mr Belt)

kvinbrwr
01-10-2011, 09:14 AM
This cue belongs in the Smithsonian! Seriously!

Jay

You know the story of the Smithsonian Collection and how they contacted what they deemed the 12 top American living cue makers to have them each donate a cue to their exhibition? The exhibit that never happened and those one-off cues are stuffed in some closet over in the Museum?

It would be very unlike Ernie to donate a cue to have it sit in a closet and he didn't. He's got the invitation letter and the cue he built for the ill-fated exhibit (well he sold that). Ernie's dad was a castanet maker and an accountant, and you can see both influences very strongly in Ernie.

Kevin

Petros Andrikop
01-10-2011, 09:49 AM
This is out of this planet...
Most impressive cue I've ever seen, it's like a statement in a possible poll about best cuemaker ever: "eat my dust"...
Petros

kvinbrwr
08-19-2011, 07:45 AM
Sorry about that, I changed servers and lost the pics. I've put them up on my new server and here they are.

Ernie's 70th birthday was recently celebrated (after he worked on his current 50 cue batch all day).

Thanks

Kevin

jay helfert
08-19-2011, 10:06 AM
This cue is the "Holy Grail" of pool cues!

kvinbrwr
08-19-2011, 10:13 AM
This cue is the "Holy Grail" of pool cues!

Certainly in the Big Four:

1) The Last Gus

2) The Golden Balabushka

3) The Silver Gina

and of course

4) Jay Helfert's Crooked Old Butt Zebrawood Gina

Diamond Jack
08-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Thank you for building the No.1 Mr. Ernie Gutierrez.

Hans

Brozif
08-19-2011, 11:56 AM
This cue is a true work of art!!

When is the raffle?

I would like spots...

Seriously, thanks for sharing. I don't think I would have ever seen this cue had you not done that.

Sev
08-19-2011, 12:19 PM
Dam that is beautiful!!!

poolhustler
08-19-2011, 01:41 PM
This cue is a true work of art!!

When is the raffle?

I would like spots...

Seriously, thanks for sharing. I don't think I would have ever seen this cue had you not done that.

I'll talk to Ernie about a raffle.

BTW, the spots would be $7,000 to $8000 each :)

rich337
08-19-2011, 02:41 PM
that has to be the nicest stick i have ever seen thanks for posting

kvinbrwr
08-19-2011, 04:37 PM
Ernie was talking to me about rebuilding and refurbishing The Silver Gina, which would be stunning.

Thanks again

Kevin

Brozif
08-19-2011, 04:44 PM
I'll talk to Ernie about a raffle.

BTW, the spots would be $7,000 to $8000 each :)

Okay, so maybe instead of rattling off the cue, you can raffle off each raffle spot and call it a sub-raffle. So in a raffle with 46 spots, that would be like $175 per spot. The winner of that sub-raffle would then get to pick the first spot in the main-raffle for the cue. You limit each person to only one spot in a sub-raffle and you can only buy a spot in one sub-raffle. At the end of all the sub-raffles, you would have a full board of 46, with 46 different members.

Could you imagine? At the end of 46 sub-raffles, you would then have a full main-raffle where every member only paid $175 to get into and one would win that amazing cue. I would love to win a $350,000 for the low investment of $175.

Okay, I'm done dreaming now as I would never expect anyone to do something like this! I just wanted to have a little fun. I might just have a raffle like this for one of my cues. Each sub-raffle spot would only cost $.72 a piece! Hahaha!:D:p;)

JUSTABANGER 2
08-19-2011, 05:33 PM
Thanks for posting this.

Fatboy
08-19-2011, 05:37 PM
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land). Ernie was kind enough to show the Silver Gina and Joe ran and got whatever camera he had and shot with the light available in Ernie's shop. I was a little surprised that Ernie allowed the pictures and very surprised when he gave me permission to post them on AZ. I consider this a rather rare treat and that's why I'm posting them here in the Main rather than in cue gallery. My thanks to Kam for inspiring Ernie, Joe for taking the best pics he could in those conditions, and of course, to Ernie for the permission (and for building this monster to begin with).

Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.

I deal in high-end collectibles and the Silver Gina is one of the few instances I can think of where a collectible of high value has been retained in the possession of the person who actually created it. Generally a historically collectible piece gets valued by what it sells or auctions for as it gets passed up the chain from collector to collector to gallery and museums. The Silver Gina is valued in a different way, as it has never been sold. It is valued by the offers Ernie has turned down. Starting in 1966 at turning down the unheard of at that time sum of $3,000 all the way up to modern times with him refusing a purported $350K.

Here it is:

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg1.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg2.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg3.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg4.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg5.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg6.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg7.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg8.jpg



I never get tired of this cue, Great pics, I offered Ernie $300,000 for it back in 07. He wouldnt take it. He didnt even consider it for a second, and I dont blame him, I was born in Dec 66 just like the case says on it, so eventually one day i'll own this cue and case. When the time is right. the month and year are perfect, its destiny. :thumbup:

Fatboy
08-19-2011, 05:39 PM
Okay, so maybe instead of rattling off the cue, you can raffle off each raffle spot and call it a sub-raffle. So in a raffle with 46 spots, that would be like $175 per spot. The winner of that sub-raffle would then get to pick the first spot in the main-raffle for the cue. You limit each person to only one spot in a sub-raffle and you can only buy a spot in one sub-raffle. At the end of all the sub-raffles, you would have a full board of 46, with 46 different members.

Could you imagine? At the end of 46 sub-raffles, you would then have a full main-raffle where every member only paid $175 to get into and one would win that amazing cue. I would love to win a $350,000 for the low investment of $175.

Okay, I'm done dreaming now as I would never expect anyone to do something like this! I just wanted to have a little fun. I might just have a raffle like this for one of my cues. Each sub-raffle spot would only cost $.72 a piece! Hahaha!:D:p;)




this is a brilliant plan, its like the satelight tournemnts for the WSOP Main Event kinda sorta.

a raffle for a spot in a raffle. I love it, i'm in.

Brozif
08-19-2011, 07:17 PM
this is a brilliant plan, its like the satelight tournemnts for the WSOP Main Event kinda sorta.

a raffle for a spot in a raffle. I love it, i'm in.

Thank you Sir! I didn't think it was a bad plan. Ernie would still get the money for his cue, and one of us would get it for an unbelievable price! :thumbup:

peterskw
08-20-2011, 05:40 AM
I love looking at this cue--it is so amazing. Its even more fun reading all the stories. I can't believe Ernie used to play with it, what condition are the tips? Just kidding!

Pete

JB Cases
08-20-2011, 06:05 AM
Here are some pics of what is arguably the most collectible cue ever made. The way I understand it, the trinity of holy grail cues is the Golden Babushka, the Last Gus and the Silver Gina. Ernie Gutierrez's 69th birthday was yesterday and he celebrated by working all day like he does every day except Sunday. Kam Daswani (Kam here at AZ) was there visiting Ernie's, as was my friend Joe Richland (junksecret here in AZ land). Ernie was kind enough to show the Silver Gina and Joe ran and got whatever camera he had and shot with the light available in Ernie's shop. I was a little surprised that Ernie allowed the pictures and very surprised when he gave me permission to post them on AZ. I consider this a rather rare treat and that's why I'm posting them here in the Main rather than in cue gallery. My thanks to Kam for inspiring Ernie, Joe for taking the best pics he could in those conditions, and of course, to Ernie for the permission (and for building this monster to begin with).

Ernie started the Silver Gina in 1965 and finished it and the hand made case in 1966. He built the cue as a display of his skills and would take it to tournaments and play with it as a way of drawing attention, showcasing his talents and gathering orders. As you can see, the cue has been used as all Ginas are intended to be used, as a pool playing instrument. The cue and case are constructed of silver, ivory, mother of pearl, maple and ebony. Ernie had been building cues for 3 years when he built this cue more than 40 yeas ago.

I deal in high-end collectibles and the Silver Gina is one of the few instances I can think of where a collectible of high value has been retained in the possession of the person who actually created it. Generally a historically collectible piece gets valued by what it sells or auctions for as it gets passed up the chain from collector to collector to gallery and museums. The Silver Gina is valued in a different way, as it has never been sold. It is valued by the offers Ernie has turned down. Starting in 1966 at turning down the unheard of at that time sum of $3,000 all the way up to modern times with him refusing a purported $350K.

Here it is:

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg1.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg2.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg3.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg4.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg5.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg6.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg7.jpg

http://www.dorquesrus.com/silverg8.jpg

I have seen this cue and case in person and there aren't any pictures in the world that can really capture it's power. Thank you for sharing these and reminding me how absolutely awesome it is.

JB Cases
08-20-2011, 06:08 AM
I think he should of taken the 350K if he was truly offered the money.

Some things are more important to a man than money.

JB Cases
08-20-2011, 06:17 AM
Lou

Absolutely. The point can't be what he should have ever sold the cue for as in "what's reasonable". Ernie has made and sold, what ? 3000 cues in his time as a cue maker, clearly he knows what a reasonable price for his goods are, he sells them as fast as he can make them. What did Balabushka charge for a cue in 1966? $100 bucks ? Clearly $3000 was an exorbitant amount of money for a cue in 1966 and Ernie turned it down, thus spinning up the value of the cue. Meantime for 50 years Ernie has enhanced his reputation as a cue maker and allure to collectors and thus the value of this cue. Its silly to discuss what he should or should not have accepted for this cue, clearly in 44 years he's had several "reasonable" offers and by not accepting them he has helped create what this cue is. To say what he should have done or what you would do if you were him is silly. What he has done is create one of the most collectible cues in the history of cue making and he has managed to hang on to it himself.

Thanks

Kevin

You know. It's really sad that Ernie hardly ever gets mentioned as influential on the cue making industry. I say this with utmost respect when I say that Ernie's sense of design in 1966 was DECADES above his peers. I have seen a lot of Balabushkas and Gus Szambotis that had me shaking my heads as to how anyone could have ever stuck sich dissimilar parts together. Granted they ALL surely played like gold but the aesthetics left a lot to be desired. I wish Ernie would be mentioned more often as to the incredible influence he had. Maybe it's because he quit for a while, maybe it's because he is a West Coast maker and the most pool was in the east and midwest. I don't know but Ernie sure as hell deserves more than an honorable mention whenever the history of cue making is brought up.

Back when Tad was doing the same type of Palmer/Bushka/Szam designs Ernie was doing incredible stuff that even cue makers of this era have yet to surpass.

branpureza
08-20-2011, 10:03 AM
You know. It's really sad that Ernie hardly ever gets mentioned as influential on the cue making industry. I say this with utmost respect when I say that Ernie's sense of design in 1966 was DECADES above his peers. I have seen a lot of Balabushkas and Gus Szambotis that had me shaking my heads as to how anyone could have ever stuck sich dissimilar parts together. Granted they ALL surely played like gold but the aesthetics left a lot to be desired. I wish Ernie would be mentioned more often as to the incredible influence he had. Maybe it's because he quit for a while, maybe it's because he is a West Coast maker and the most pool was in the east and midwest. I don't know but Ernie sure as hell deserves more than an honorable mention whenever the history of cue making is brought up.

Back when Tad was doing the same type of Palmer/Bushka/Szam designs Ernie was doing incredible stuff that even cue makers of this era have yet to surpass.



Not really sure what you mean here John??

Maybe you just don't follow cues as much as you do cases but most everyone knows that Ernie is in the top 5 cuemakers of all time and is definitely credited with being the most innovative and influential.

Ernie changed the game in cue design and is most copied cuemaker on the planet.

JB Cases
08-20-2011, 03:43 PM
Not really sure what you mean here John??

Maybe you just don't follow cues as much as you do cases but most everyone knows that Ernie is in the top 5 cuemakers of all time and is definitely credited with being the most innovative and influential.

Ernie changed the game in cue design and is most copied cuemaker on the planet.

Actually everybody does NOT know this. And Gina is not the most copied maker.

That was my point. I'd bet you a case that if we did a true study of discussions on AZ Billiards about great cue makers who had an impact on the art then Ernie's name would come up FAR less in the discussions than it ought to have. Take the past ten years as an example and just compare mentions of Gus Szamboti, George Balabushka, Gina/Ernie Gutierrez (notice the brand name/real name there Joe?) and any two others you want and I bet Ernie comes in well behind the first two when he probably shouldn't in my opinion.

branpureza
08-20-2011, 03:58 PM
Actually everybody does NOT know this. And Gina is not the most copied maker.

That was my point. I'd bet you a case that if we did a true study of discussions on AZ Billiards about great cue makers who had an impact on the art then Ernie's name would come up FAR less in the discussions than it ought to have. Take the past ten years as an example and just compare mentions of Gus Szamboti, George Balabushka, Gina/Ernie Gutierrez (notice the brand name/real name there Joe?) and any two others you want and I bet Ernie comes in well behind the first two when he probably shouldn't in my opinion.

Didn't say everyone, I said most... as in most of the people that care enough about custom cues normally know of Ernie and his contribution to cue making.

I'm not going to get into it or make and hypothetical bets with you on a true study... how do you determine how often he should be mentioned anyway? That's ridiculous.

I'm just going to respectfully disagree with particular opinions you have that hint at Ernie being overlooked in certain aspects such as this:

You know. It's really sad that Ernie hardly ever gets mentioned as influential on the cue making industry.

kvinbrwr
08-20-2011, 04:22 PM
To say Ernie doesn't get mentioned enough as influential as he deserves or should is a nice thing to say. To say he hardly gets mentioned, well, I guess that would depend on who you are talking to.

If you are talking to cue makers, who the the 2 most influential or respected nowadays (not counting Ernie)? I think that Barry and Searing would be two pretty good contenders. I'm thinking if you ask Barry or Dennis to name the most influential cue makers of all time and allow them to list, say, four people, they both would include Ernie Gutierrez in their list. Why do I say this? From talking to them both. So like I said at the beginning, the "hardly mentioned" would certainly depend on who it is you are talking with.

Collectors? I don't know them all certainly, but I can't think of one off the top of my head that wouldn't mention Ernie in a conversation of the most influential as being at least in their top 3 or 4.

Dealers? Off the top of my head, the 4 biggest I think of are, Little Kenny, Big Kenny, Lucky and Bill Grassley (sorry for whomever I left out). I can't imagine any of those guys making a 4 most influential cue makers of all time list without Ernie on it. I might be wrong.

I'm sort of hard pressed to think of who was copied more than Ernie, maybe if you count all the Titlists as Rambow copies, maybe it was Rambow. If you count all the plain jane TADs as Martin copies, maybe it was Martin (although Tad himself laughs about copying Ernie and while on the subject of most influential, if you are having that conversation with Tad, he isn't going 2 names before mentioning Ernie).

Thanks

Kevin

classiccues
08-20-2011, 04:30 PM
Actually everybody does NOT know this. And Gina is not the most copied maker.

That was my point. I'd bet you a case that if we did a true study of discussions on AZ Billiards about great cue makers who had an impact on the art then Ernie's name would come up FAR less in the discussions than it ought to have. Take the past ten years as an example and just compare mentions of Gus Szamboti, George Balabushka, Gina/Ernie Gutierrez (notice the brand name/real name there Joe?) and any two others you want and I bet Ernie comes in well behind the first two when he probably shouldn't in my opinion.

The difference is that Gina/Ernie same person. He doesn't have anyone working in his shop. So you KNOW who made the cue. Brand name / real name irrelevent to the other thread. As far as most influence, with the advent of the internet and the popularity of cues in the last 20 years, more people know more things.

I can tell you as fact, up until 1986 if you said Ginacue or Ernie G. in NJ/NY you would have gotten a very big WHOOOOO? Maybe and most likely because of his hiatus. I for one am glad he came back, I like his old stuff alot and his new stuff is very nice.

JV

branpureza
08-20-2011, 04:34 PM
To say Ernie doesn't get mentioned enough as influential as he deserves or should is a nice thing to say. To say he hardly gets mentioned, well, I guess that would depend on who you are talking to.

If you are talking to cue makers, who the the 2 most influential or respected nowadays (not counting Ernie)? I think that Barry and Searing would be two pretty good contenders. I'm thinking if you ask Barry or Dennis to name the most influential cue makers of all time and allow them to list, say, four people, they both would include Ernie Gutierrez in their list. Why do I say this? From talking to them both. So like I said at the beginning, the "hardly mentioned" would certainly depend on who it is you are talking with.

Collectors? I don't know them all certainly, but I can't think of one off the top of my head that wouldn't mention Ernie in a conversation of the most influential as being at least in their top 3 or 4.

Dealers? Off the top of my head, the 4 biggest I think of are, Little Kenny, Big Kenny, Lucky and Bill Grassley (sorry for whomever I left out). I can't imagine any of those guys making a 4 most influential cue makers of all time list without Ernie on it. I might be wrong.

I'm sort of hard pressed to think of who was copied more than Ernie, maybe if you count all the Titlists as Rambow copies, maybe it was Rambow. If you count all the plain jane TADs as martin copies, maybe it was Martin (although Tad himself laughs about copying Ernie and while on the subject of most influential, if you are having that conversation with Tad, he isn't going 2 names before mentioning Ernie).

Thanks

Kevin

Exactly. Furthermore...

i agree, to put it into perspective I was speaking to Barry Szam a week ago and he said that Ernie is the greatest cue maker alive, how strong is that? I like Barrys cues a bit better because to me they play better but its a close call, but ernie's work with silver etc is the best in the world.

Taken from:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=748786#post748786

kvinbrwr
08-20-2011, 04:37 PM
The difference is that Gina/Ernie same person. He doesn't have anyone working in his shop. So you KNOW who made the cue. Brand name / real name irrelevent to the other thread. As far as most influence, with the advent of the internet and the popularity of cues in the last 20 years, more people know more things.

I can tell you as fact, up until 1986 if you said Ginacue or Ernie G. in NJ/NY you would have gotten a very big WHOOOOO? Maybe and most likely because of his hiatus. I for one am glad he came back, I like his old stuff alot and his new stuff is very nice.

JV

JV

Its an East Coast/West Coast thing. You guys were all walking around in the snow and the darkness of clouds saying George/Gus while we out here in the sunshine of enlightenment were all reciting TAD/Ernie.

LOL

Kevin

JB Cases
08-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Didn't say everyone, I said most... as in most of the people that care enough about custom cues normally know of Ernie and his contribution to cue making.

I'm not going to get into it or make and hypothetical bets with you on a true study... how do you determine how often he should be mentioned anyway? That's ridiculous.

I'm just going to respectfully disagree with particular opinions you have that hint at Ernie being overlooked in certain aspects such as this:

There are many ways to glean relevant data from a forum such as this. You are a little too close to the subject in my opinion. I, on the other hand, have been in the cue selling business for more than 20 years and am speaking of the vast majority of people out there who know a little about custom cue and makers but who aren't immersed in it fully. I understand your disagreement and where it comes from. I hope that you don't misunderstand my comments or my intent.

Fatboy
08-21-2011, 12:08 AM
I think Gus has the same respect everywhere,

Ernie is a amazing cue maker and has been for many many years. He has influenced many many cue makers over the years. His contribution to American cue making cant be over stated. Ernie has been on the cutting edge and years ahead of many cue makers in his designs and artistic flair. I never heard anyone knock Ernie's work.

deanoc
08-21-2011, 08:30 AM
I saw this cue in 1986 or so
I got everyone I knew to make me ivory wrapped cues
Jerry Franklin made me 6
Tim Scruggs made 4 or so Paul Drexler about 4,Peterson,Schrager,McDaniel, Pdrgent,Shick,Mottey,and others

ThisGina was an inspiration to me then,and it still stands alone

if I were to make another one,Paul Drexler would be the choice again,he has such great taste ,proportion,designs,taste and workmanship

half fast bankr
08-22-2011, 02:07 AM
Hey Kev, been away for a minute. Thank you for reposting these for me.
The east coast / west coast comment was funny, and perhaps true to an extent. Look how long it took for Martin's name to get to the other side of the country...

Anyway, thanks for the eye candy. It truly is a thing of beauty!

Soldtonight
08-28-2011, 04:38 PM
Kevin, You mentioned this cue to me a couple years ago and man you weren't kidding. I don't think there's another cue maker who in there 3rd yr of business made there crowning achivement! Ernie has certainly made many amazing cues since then, but has he made any bigger cues than this?
Thanks for pushing to get this cue posted, it's an eye opener for sure...
Dan Z

Jim Buss
08-28-2011, 04:53 PM
In 1993 at the World 9-ball Championship in Arlington Heights, Illinois, I had a booth right next to Ernie. When the tournament was going on, no one was looking at our cues, so the cuemakers played pool with each other on one of the two Diamond tables that we had setup.

Ernie actually plays with that cue. (or at least he did then then). He even broke with it. I asked him how it hit, and he handed it to me. I ran the last 5 or 6 balls of the rack. He then racked the balls, and I jokingly said "can I break with it?" He said sure, go ahead.

No way was I going to break with a 25-30 year old cue.

The cue is a little heavy for me. I think it was about 21 ounces, perhaps 22. A lot of people played with a heavy cue when that cue was made. I'm amazed it wasn't heavier, considering how much silver is in it.

--Jim Buss--
http://www.jimbuss.com

DogsPlayingPool
08-28-2011, 05:29 PM
Kevin, You mentioned this cue to me a couple years ago and man you weren't kidding. I don't think there's another cue maker who in there 3rd yr of business made there crowning achivement! Ernie has certainly made many amazing cues since then, but has he made any bigger cues than this?
Thanks for pushing to get this cue posted, it's an eye opener for sure...
Dan Z

Ernie has probably made bigger cues in terms of how much time he spent in building them. The Cathedral Cues he finished this year almost surely were more time consuming even with the help of CNC design. But the Silver Gina is probably his biggest cue in terms of value. Ernie has made some of the highest priced cues ever but he's probably turned down more money for this cue than any other cue he ever made has sold for. We know for sure of at least one offer for $300K, but who knows what other offers he's turned down. And I believe he was offered $250K something like 25 years ago. Not sure what the most expensive cue he ever sold went for though. Some of the really high end stuff is in the collections of very private individuals.

Fatboy
08-29-2011, 07:48 AM
Ernie has probably made bigger cues in terms of how much time he spent in building them. The Cathedral Cues he finished this year almost surely were more time consuming even with the help of CNC design. But the Silver Gina is probably his biggest cue in terms of value. Ernie has made some of the highest priced cues ever but he's probably turned down more money for this cue than any other cue he ever made has sold for. We know for sure of at least one offer for $300K, but who knows what other offers he's turned down. And I believe he was offered $250K something like 25 years ago. Not sure what the most expensive cue he ever sold went for though. Some of the really high end stuff is in the collections of very private individuals.


I found out after I offered the $300,000 he had turned down $400,000. This I know for a fact. Had I known this before I made the offer I wouldnt have made the offer. The guy who maded the $400,000 offer is real and has one heck of a collection. I'm glad Ernie didnt sell it.

Thats all I know about the big $$ on that cue, right now I'm not in the same spot I was and wouldnt spend $300K on a cue now. That cue is Ernie's claim to fame, he is the correct owner.

best
eric

SpiderWebComm
08-29-2011, 08:45 AM
EDIT:

I now understand why he declines tons of money for the cue. A friend of mine gave me the history of the cue. Based on the story, I wouldn't sell it either.

Dave

Ken_4fun
08-29-2011, 09:17 AM
While I like Ernies cues, and I have owned a few. But I think he gets the reconition he deserves. He does alot of "production" cues, and always has.
If you can call a cuemaker up and order a 14C or whatever know what you are getting, to me, its a production cue.

His domino, and titlist conversions are far from rare, as I have seen many, many all over the US. They are often touted as rare, but IMO, they are many more cues from that same era that would be more deserving of that title.

In my opinion, he is down the list of influences on cuemakers, too.

Rambo
Balabushka
Szamboti
Kersenbrock

Is Ernie a master cuemaker? Absolutely.

IMO, he is in the top ten, and respected. But the above list of cuemakers were REALLY influenced cuemakers. Frankly, if I was to say the most under reconginized cuemaker, I would say Kersenbrock. Every cuemaker using the big pin in the "SOUTHWEST" style should be giving him a percentage...:rolleyes:

Ken

thepavlos
08-29-2011, 09:30 AM
While I like Ernies cues, and I have owned a few. But I think he gets the reconition he deserves. He does alot of "production" cues, and always has.
If you can call a cuemaker up and order a 14C or whatever know what you are getting, to me, its a production cue.

His domino, and titlist conversions are far from rare, as I have seen many, many all over the US. They are often touted as rare, but IMO, they are many more cues from that same era that would be more deserving of that title.

In my opinion, he is down the list of influences on cuemakers, too.

Rambo
Balabushka
Szamboti
Kersenbrock

Is Ernie a master cuemaker? Absolutely.

IMO, he is in the top ten, and respected. But the above list of cuemakers were REALLY influenced cuemakers. Frankly, if I was to say the most under reconginized cuemaker, I would say Kersenbrock. Every cuemaker using the big pin in the "SOUTHWEST" style should be giving him a percentage...:rolleyes:

Ken
What about Harvey Martin, he was using a 3/8-8 in his early cues. He should be credited with popularizing the big pin.

Ken_4fun
08-29-2011, 10:50 AM
What about Harvey Martin, he was using a 3/8-8 in his early cues. He should be credited with popularizing the big pin.

You might be right, but that pin if I remember right is pretty much a standard pin, verses the one most recognize as a "Southwest" pin with the flat top.

Good point though and I agree.

Secondly, if you see a Tad and not think HM, then you miss that too.

Good discussion.

ken

DogsPlayingPool
08-29-2011, 11:08 AM
While I like Ernies cues, and I have owned a few. But I think he gets the reconition he deserves. He does alot of "production" cues, and always has.
If you can call a cuemaker up and order a 14C or whatever know what you are getting, to me, its a production cue.


I disagree with this. Just because a cue is a "catalog" cue so to speak does not mean it is a production cue. When you order a cue from Ernie, the build has not even been started until after you have placed the order, which you place to your custom specifications including veneer colors, joint material, wrap, wood selection, inlay materials, weight, balance point etc. Just because the overall design is not unique does not make it a production cue, It only means it's not a 1/1.

branpureza
08-29-2011, 02:24 PM
While I like Ernies cues, and I have owned a few. But I think he gets the reconition he deserves. He does alot of "production" cues, and always has.
If you can call a cuemaker up and order a 14C or whatever know what you are getting, to me, its a production cue.

His domino, and titlist conversions are far from rare, as I have seen many, many all over the US. They are often touted as rare, but IMO, they are many more cues from that same era that would be more deserving of that title.

In my opinion, he is down the list of influences on cuemakers, too.

Rambo
Balabushka
Szamboti
Kersenbrock

Is Ernie a master cuemaker? Absolutely.

IMO, he is in the top ten, and respected. But the above list of cuemakers were REALLY influenced cuemakers. Frankly, if I was to say the most under reconginized cuemaker, I would say Kersenbrock. Every cuemaker using the big pin in the "SOUTHWEST" style should be giving him a percentage...:rolleyes:

Ken


The only reason Ernie does those cues (such as a 14C) is because people ask for them.

He can build any cue you want including 1 of 1's.

Honestly I think all Szamboti's look pretty much the same... sure they might have different veneer colors and dots or peacocks in different places but it's usually the same basic design. That doesn't make them production cues though.

lfigueroa
08-30-2011, 05:58 AM
While I like Ernies cues, and I have owned a few. But I think he gets the reconition he deserves. He does alot of "production" cues, and always has.
If you can call a cuemaker up and order a 14C or whatever know what you are getting, to me, its a production cue.

His domino, and titlist conversions are far from rare, as I have seen many, many all over the US. They are often touted as rare, but IMO, they are many more cues from that same era that would be more deserving of that title.

In my opinion, he is down the list of influences on cuemakers, too.

Rambo
Balabushka
Szamboti
Kersenbrock

Is Ernie a master cuemaker? Absolutely.

IMO, he is in the top ten, and respected. But the above list of cuemakers were REALLY influenced cuemakers. Frankly, if I was to say the most under reconginized cuemaker, I would say Kersenbrock. Every cuemaker using the big pin in the "SOUTHWEST" style should be giving him a percentage...:rolleyes:

Ken


Sylvestor Stallone made cues?! (Who knew :-)

I think guys like Herman Rambow, Harvey Martin, Frank Paradise, Eugene Balner, George Balabuska, and Gus Szamboti were influential in that they were the first guys to make great, simply decorated, two-piece cues. Their influence is sort of like saying Henry Ford was influential because he made the Model T.

Ernie was the guy that came up with the Porsche.

Lou Figueroa

kvinbrwr
08-30-2011, 06:54 AM
The only reason Ernie does those cues (such as a 14C) is because people ask for them.

He can build any cue you want including 1 of 1's.

Honestly I think all Szamboti's look pretty much the same... sure they might have different veneer colors and dots or peacocks in different places but it's usually the same basic design. That doesn't make them production cues though.

Please. Of course. Ernie ordered 2 grosses total of Titlist blanks, he used only 1/2 of the 2nd order, which makes for about 200 cues in his lifetime that are Titlist based. The domino, although the most popular of his Titlist designs, was only one of 3 basic designs (every single one custom ordered by the way, he does not build cues on spec, they are all sold and made to spec before he turns the wood) so lets say there were 100 Dominoes made in his 50 years as a cue maker. George made some 300 (I think) Titlist cues in his 16 years as a cue maker, so that "many many" claim seems maybe a bit speculative.

How many 4 pt 4 veneer Cortland wrap steel jointed plain butt cues did George and Gus build in their careers? Were those production cues? With standardization comes quality control. As you point out, custom means made to your specs. As yes, Ernie will build you a 1 of 1, just make sure to bring your checkbook (as you would for a Searing or Barry), however want a super quality cue built to incredibly precise tolerances to your specification and want it delivered for less than $5K and less than 8 years? Ernie is your man (I know I'm preaching to the choir here).

Thanks

Kevin

kvinbrwr
08-30-2011, 07:22 AM
While I like Ernies cues, and I have owned a few. But I think he gets the reconition he deserves. He does alot of "production" cues, and always has.
If you can call a cuemaker up and order a 14C or whatever know what you are getting, to me, its a production cue.

His domino, and titlist conversions are far from rare, as I have seen many, many all over the US. They are often touted as rare, but IMO, they are many more cues from that same era that would be more deserving of that title.

In my opinion, he is down the list of influences on cuemakers, too.

Rambo
Balabushka
Szamboti
Kersenbrock

Is Ernie a master cuemaker? Absolutely.

IMO, he is in the top ten, and respected. But the above list of cuemakers were REALLY influenced cuemakers. Frankly, if I was to say the most under reconginized cuemaker, I would say Kersenbrock. Every cuemaker using the big pin in the "SOUTHWEST" style should be giving him a percentage...:rolleyes:

Ken

Ken

Pay Kersenbrock (1972) that percentage and he will have to turn around and pay Tad (1962) Schrager (1964) and they will have to kick it down to Martin (1920s). Art is art, and derivative in its very nature.

Thanks

Kevin

kvinbrwr
08-30-2011, 07:29 AM
I found out after I offered the $300,000 he had turned down $400,000. This I know for a fact. Had I known this before I made the offer I wouldnt have made the offer. The guy who maded the $400,000 offer is real and has one heck of a collection. I'm glad Ernie didnt sell it.

Thats all I know about the big $$ on that cue, right now I'm not in the same spot I was and wouldnt spend $300K on a cue now. That cue is Ernie's claim to fame, he is the correct owner.

best
eric

Eric

Come on man, reach under you to that big pile of dough you are sitting on and buy this thing.

Ernie put your birth date on this this thing before you could speak. Its fate.
Sell some cars, buy the Silver Gina and be done with it. (until the Last Gus pops up).

Kevin

RunoutJJ
08-30-2011, 08:59 AM
When I first saw this cue only one thing came to mind.....



















































































MY PRECIOUS!!!!!!


http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQD54x-U3VgKi6uoPCWtyuXpADzUtz4gKO8_m4bTh5nCyzRdOiVAQ

Ken_4fun
08-30-2011, 10:19 PM
How many 4 pt 4 veneer Cortland wrap steel jointed plain butt cues did George and Gus build in their careers? Were those production cues? With standardization comes quality control. As you point out, custom means made to your specs. As yes, Ernie will build you a 1 of 1, just make sure to bring your checkbook (as you would for a Searing or Barry), however want a super quality cue built to incredibly precise tolerances to your specification and want it delivered for less than $5K and less than 8 years? Ernie is your man (I know I'm preaching to the choir here).

Thanks

Kevin

Kevin

ANY Production cuemaker will make you a 1 of 1. Just call them, (JOSS, SCHON, whoever).

Surely you dont want to compare Ernie to Gus or George do you? Really?
The CNC inlayed points of a Ginacue (new ones) really are a take away for me and most cue buyers that I know.

I loved playing with a Gina cue. I got it new, (I didnt order it), and it played great "out of the box", meaning I didnt have to change a thing including tips.

I can appreciate someone saying nice things about a cuemaker because they are somebodys friend or know them, but come on.

As far as the Kersenbrock deal, I never owned one, never talked to the guy, but the list of cuemakers that are using the EXACT same pin or one so damn close its basically the same pin is a long list. Are they using the same pin type that Martin used, no, not even close. Are there a long list of cuemakers using a pin similar to the Martin pin? No.

Obviously Tad was greatly influenced by Martin, but IMO, Martin would never use the inlays and work that has made Tad famous.

I stand by my original group.

Rocky Balboa, I mean Rambow
George
Gus
Kersenbrock

One other thing, and I dont know who has the picture of the show where the MASTERS of CUEMAKERS, it had Tad, Ernie, Stroud, Schick, and another(cant remember now) all in one shot. Little help here guys, I think it was at a show.

Best of rolls,
Ken

branpureza
08-30-2011, 10:50 PM
Surely you dont want to compare Ernie to Gus or George do you? Really?
The CNC inlayed points of a Ginacue (new ones) really are a take away for me and most cue buyers that I know.


I think it would be more appropriate to compare Gus and George to Ernie. He did everything those guys did and 10 times more.

The CNC allows him to take cue making to new heights... do you really think he couldn't make a simple Szamboti style cue? He could make those all day with one hand tied behind his back... it would be boring to him.


Kevin

I can appreciate someone saying nice things about a cuemaker because they are somebodys friend or know them, but come on.


I'm not a close friend of Ernie and while I understand this is mostly a matter of opinion and personal preference I'm honestly a little baffled that you or anyone else could ever think those guys are heads and tails above what Ernie has done. It's just ridiculous to me...

pathman
08-31-2011, 07:37 AM
How many short spliced non CNC Ernie cues have been made? Not Titleist or any other produced blank, but a blank that Ernie made himself? I've seen lots of older Gina's and don't remember ever seeing one. I find the CNC points a big turn-off myself, but I think Ernie and Bill Stroud do it better than most. Not a knock on Ernie in any way, just curious if any of the west coast Gina folks have any insight into this.

kvinbrwr
08-31-2011, 07:47 AM
How many short spliced non CNC Ernie cues have been made? Not Titleist or any other produced blank, but a blank that Ernie made himself? I've seen lots of older Gina's and don't remember ever seeing one. I find the CNC points a big turn-off myself, but I think Ernie and Bill Stroud do it better than most. Not a knock on Ernie in any way, just curious if any of the west coast Gina folks have any insight into this.

Ernie has never spliced a cue, either in his first generation or 2nd generation of cue building. He doesn't believe that adding a splice of 2 woods and a bunch of glue in the butt adds to the structural integrity of the product. Ernie is a guy that knows a little bit about engineering, and wood, and lots of his 40+ year old sticks are still around, so who knows?

Thanks

Kevin

Ken_4fun
08-31-2011, 08:26 AM
How many short spliced non CNC Ernie cues have been made? Not Titleist or any other produced blank, but a blank that Ernie made himself? I've seen lots of older Gina's and don't remember ever seeing one. I find the CNC points a big turn-off myself, but I think Ernie and Bill Stroud do it better than most. Not a knock on Ernie in any way, just curious if any of the west coast Gina folks have any insight into this.

I love JW cues, but the newer ones are CNC which is a turn off for me too. IMO going from spliced to CNC is a downgrade.

Another GOOD thing about Ernie and his cues is his delivery. I think it is about a year, maybe sooner.

He seems like a straight shooter, too.

Ken

Murray Tucker
08-31-2011, 11:22 AM
How do you tell the difference between inlays done on a cnc vs. those done on a pantomill?

kvinbrwr
08-31-2011, 11:27 AM
How do you tell the difference between inlays done on a cnc vs. those done on a pantomill?

No kidding. I like your work by the way.

I think the distinction he was trying to make is between inlayed points and spliced points, being both a traditionalist and advocating innovation simultaneously.

BTW you might enjoy this. Ernie tells me that in the 60s when he was cutting the spaces for inlays by hand, he could make the pocket for a French diamond inlay in under a minute. He was making 100 cues a year even then.

Thanks

Kevin

kvinbrwr
02-03-2013, 09:40 AM
I had a guy ask me to repost my pics of this cue (I had deleted by old stuff off the server).

So here you go.

Thanks

Kevin

tank69
02-03-2013, 10:55 AM
The BATMOBILE of cues! That's amazing work.

Realizm
02-03-2013, 12:37 PM
Ive seen this cue in person omg amazing..

fbrent1972
02-03-2013, 07:10 PM
I saw the cue and case when Ernie came to Johnston City in the 1960s. He came to try to sell cues and he gave away a picture of the cues he was making (4 cues in the picture I believe).

junksecret
02-03-2013, 11:13 PM
I had a guy ask me to repost my pics of this cue (I had deleted by old stuff off the server).

So here you go.

Thanks

Kevin

Well, as "that guy", thanks Brew

daimion
02-04-2013, 03:51 AM
Yes my interest is also piqued. That is an astounding cue. I would love to see the Golden Balabushka and the Last Gus if those photos do exist. Please link to the cue porn :)

kvinbrwr
02-04-2013, 01:02 PM
Well, as "that guy", thanks Brew

You are welcome.

At least I didn't refer to you as "some guy".

You need to change your location, right now there are 538 foxy pool gals wandering around Studio City looking to to "naked head shots" (whatever that is).

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 06:58 AM
I was asked to bump this in response to another thread.

Enjoy.

Kevin

Fatboy
05-27-2013, 07:10 AM
I was asked to bump this in response to another thread.

Enjoy.

Kevin


now i want to be silver again, :wink::wink:

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 07:17 AM
now i want to be silver again, :wink::wink:

That Gold is so cool. Didn't Mike say Platinum for you?

You know man. Its almost as if you got rich so you could buy that thing. Stop moaning about how little your big pile of cash is, grab a bunch of it, put in in that bag you teased BuckTooth with (those were the days), go to North Hollywood and open it for The Master.

Come on man, he put your birthday on it 47 years ago.

Its fate.

Its the Icon that would turn your luck.

OK, there's my pitch. Make sure I'm in for a "finder's fee" when you have made the deal.

Kevin

Fatboy
05-27-2013, 07:27 AM
That Gold is so cool. Didn't Mike say Platinum for you?

You know man. Its almost as if you got rich so you could buy that thing. Stop moaning about how little your big pile of cash is, grab a bunch of it, put in in that bag you teased BuckTooth with (those were the days), go to North Hollywood and open it for The Master.

Come on man, he put your birthday on it 47 years ago.

Its fate.

Its the Icon that would turn your luck.

OK, there's my pitch. Make sure I'm in for a "finder's fee" when you have made the deal.

Kevin

I offered Ernie $300,000 for it, no deal that was in 07?.

i was joking about going silver again cause of this cue,


i love the Gold Club, thank you very much, i think Mike is working on it, i havent asked him again because i know he is busy, yes i will be platinum. i'm going to work out a deal with him and pay for it, i do feel obligated.


it kinda is fate, Dec 66 is my birth month and year.

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 07:41 AM
I offered Ernie $300,000 for it, no deal that was in 07?.

i was joking about going silver again cause of this cue,


i love the Gold Club, thank you very much, i think Mike is working on it, i havent asked him again because i know he is busy, yes i will be platinum. i'm going to work out a deal with him and pay for it, i do feel obligated.


it kinda is fate, Dec 66 is my birth month and year.

I know, it is sorta fate. Think about it, with as few guys that are even interested in such a thing, then of that group take the guys with enough money to swing it, and than from that group take the guys with the same birth year and month as the cue.

That leaves you.

Kevin

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 07:48 AM
Yes my interest is also piqued. That is an astounding cue. I would love to see the Golden Balabushka and the Last Gus if those photos do exist. Please link to the cue porn :)

You know, guys on AZ make a stink when someone offers a big cue with no pics or prices, but publicizing the highest of the high collectibles actually thins the group of the people with the means to purchase such things.

I think the Golden Balabushka and The Last Gus were both brokered by the same guy, a contributor here on AZ and I don't think he's showing his pictures or discussing the details of those sales.

You might as well add to this list a TAD or two that Tad sold directly completely under the radar that NOBODY but Tad and the collector has ever seen.

Kevin

jay helfert
05-27-2013, 08:06 AM
Ernie will NEVER sell that cue. It would be like selling his right arm! :sorry:

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 08:21 AM
Ernie will NEVER sell that cue. It would be like selling his right arm! :sorry:


LOL

It has always been for sale Jay. For 47 years. He's just yet to find the right buyer.

And that buyer best be REAL right.

Kevin

golubushka
05-27-2013, 08:28 AM
Thanks for sharing....

Fatboy
05-27-2013, 09:31 AM
LOL

It has always been for sale Jay. For 47 years. He's just yet to find the right buyer.

And that buyer best be REAL right.

Kevin


I dont think he sells it, I believe it might be the first cue to ever hit 7 figures. I'd be sick if it goes to Dubai. I was serious when i made the offer, he wanted 100 more, i got the vibe he didnt want to move it-its his status symbol. its a cue 30 years ahead of its time. i remember talking about it years before i ever saw a picture of it. how strong is that?

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 09:33 AM
I dont think he sells it, I believe it might be the first cue to ever hit 7 figures. I'd be sick if it goes to Dubai. I was serious when i made the offer, he wanted 100 more, i got the vibe he didnt want to move it-its his status symbol. its a cue 30 years ahead of its time. i remember talking about it years before i ever saw a picture of it. how strong is that?

The guy had barely been making cues for three years.

Look at that thing.

Kevin

Fatboy
05-27-2013, 10:18 AM
The guy had barely been making cues for three years.

Look at that thing.

Kevin

I was wondering how long he was building cues when he built it, i had forgot. Thats beyond amazing.

Wright Shot
05-27-2013, 10:28 AM
Awesome! You boys outdone yourselves on this thread. Extremely interesting! Bravo!

Chris

cardiac kid
05-27-2013, 11:49 AM
Guys,

Was going to ask if the cue had ever hit a ball. Looked closely at the photos of the shafts and there appears to be some "bluing". Would be a shame if such a marvelous piece of art never hit a ball. My hat is off to Ernie. Workmanship of the first order :bow-down:!

Lyn

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 11:59 AM
I was wondering how long he was building cues when he built it, i had forgot. Thats beyond amazing.

Yeah its like one of those child-prodigy deals, sorta.

Kevin

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 12:03 PM
Guys,

Was going to ask if the cue had ever hit a ball. Looked closely at the photos of the shafts and there appears to be some "bluing". Would be a shame if such a marvelous piece of art never hit a ball. My hat is off to Ernie. Workmanship of the first order :bow-down:!

Lyn

Lyn

In typical Ernie style, back in the day when he used to cart The Silver Gina around to tournaments to pitch himself, he'd yank it out and break and play with it. Here's what he was breaking with when we first started playing (until he finally succumbed to my begging and stopped):

http://www.dorquesrus.com/ernies1.jpg

Kevin

cardiac kid
05-27-2013, 12:11 PM
Lyn

In typical Ernie style, back in the day when he used to cart The Silver Gina around to tournaments to pitch himself, he'd yank it out and break and play with it. Here's what he was breaking with when we first started playing (until he finally succumbed to my begging and stopped):

http://www.dorquesrus.com/ernies1.jpg

Kevin

You had to go and do that! Show me another incredible piece of artwork. Really appreciate your reply. A break cue? Really?

Lyn

Ken_4fun
05-27-2013, 12:16 PM
It is a great cue.

I assume that Ernie at one time did make spliced cues instead of the inlayed point cues that I have seen. Really disappointed that he would take this shortcut.

I know he has made a ton of Titlist cues, often offered as rare, but hardly rare. But did he ever make his own splices?

Thanks for the posting.

Ken

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 12:18 PM
It is a great cue.

I assume that Ernie at one time did make spliced cues instead of the inlayed point cues that I have seen. Really disappointed that he would take this shortcut.

I know he has made a ton of Titlist cues, often offered as rare, but hardly rare.

Thanks for the posting.

Ken

Ken

Ernie never spliced a cue. Either did Tad for that matter. Maybe its a West Coast thing.

Thanks

Kevin

Ken_4fun
05-27-2013, 12:31 PM
Ken

Ernie never spliced a cue. Either did Tad for that matter. Maybe its a West Coast thing.

Thanks

Kevin

Kevin - Are you serious or jerking my chain?

Neither did Martin.

Ken

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 12:45 PM
Kevin - Are you serious or jerking my chain?

Neither did Martin.

Ken

Ken

Sure I'm serious. I think Ernie bought a total of 3 grosses of Titlist arms in his career, rejected about 20% of them and had maybe 20 of them remaining when I met him. He bought 12 Spain blanks, used them for the Rat Pack Cues, and had 6 of them left when I got to him. 3 I sold as-is, 3 he built into cues that he sold to me. One of the blanks I sold went back to Ernie and he made a cue out of it.

Other than a few conversions of Titlists over the years, that's the extent of spliced cues that came out of the Gina shop. None spliced by Ernie.

Tad also never spliced a cue himself. Tad used Titlist arms, and Katz blanks and made some Titlist conversions also.

Kevin

kvinbrwr
05-27-2013, 12:53 PM
You had to go and do that! Show me another incredible piece of artwork. Really appreciate your reply. A break cue? Really?

Lyn

Lynn

You are quite welcome.

The ivory made it heavy. Ernie was one of (if not the first) guy to core cues and I think this big ivory monster was pre-core (mid 1960s). So it was heavy by modern standards and yeah that was his break cue.

I was in Hollywood Billiards with him a few years ago and he had it resting against a table while we played, and drunk guys were all bumping into things around it and I BEGGED him to stop using it. He refurbished it, double date signed it, and I tried to sell it here pretty cheap (relatively) for awhile with no success. That's a pretty early inlaid-point shaft.

Kevin

cornerstone
06-07-2013, 03:57 PM
Thank you. Is there any info on the golden Balabushka. My interest has been peeked.

the golden bushka does not hold a candle to this

Fatboy
06-07-2013, 04:24 PM
the golden bushka does not hold a candle to this

thats correct, THIS cue gives the Bushka the 5 ball

DogsPlayingPool
06-07-2013, 04:28 PM
thats correct, THIS cue gives the Bushka the 5 ball

Maybe even the five and out and the break. :D

Walkermine
06-07-2013, 05:28 PM
Kevin

ANY Production cuemaker will make you a 1 of 1. Just call them, (JOSS, SCHON, whoever).

Surely you dont want to compare Ernie to Gus or George do you? Really?
The CNC inlayed points of a Ginacue (new ones) really are a take away for me and most cue buyers that I know.

I loved playing with a Gina cue. I got it new, (I didnt order it), and it played great "out of the box", meaning I didnt have to change a thing including tips.

I can appreciate someone saying nice things about a cuemaker because they are somebodys friend or know them, but come on.

As far as the Kersenbrock deal, I never owned one, never talked to the guy, but the list of cuemakers that are using the EXACT same pin or one so damn close its basically the same pin is a long list. Are they using the same pin type that Martin used, no, not even close. Are there a long list of cuemakers using a pin similar to the Martin pin? No.

Obviously Tad was greatly influenced by Martin, but IMO, Martin would never use the inlays and work that has made Tad famous.

I stand by my original group.

Rocky Balboa, I mean Rambow
George
Gus
Kersenbrock

One other thing, and I dont know who has the picture of the show where the MASTERS of CUEMAKERS, it had Tad, Ernie, Stroud, Schick, and another(cant remember now) all in one shot. Little help here guys, I think it was at a show.

Best of rolls,
Ken

The other guy was Richard Black, another great HOF cuemaker.

kvinbrwr
06-07-2013, 06:03 PM
the golden bushka does not hold a candle to this

Yeah its funny, it not always "work" or precision or even quality that drives collectibles. The Golden Bushka was plain by comparison, but so rare for George and sold at the height of George's collectibilty.

The Unfinished Gus was, well, unfinished.

Kevin

RunoutJJ
06-07-2013, 06:27 PM
both cues are shite and I wouldn't care to have either...

junksecret
06-07-2013, 11:35 PM
Ken

Sure I'm serious. I think Ernie bought a total of 3 grosses of Titlist arms in his career, rejected about 20% of them and had maybe 20 of them remaining when I met him. He bought 12 Spain blanks, used them for the Rat Pack Cues, and had 6 of them left when I got to him. 3 I sold as-is, 3 he built into cues that he sold to me. One of the blanks I sold went back to Ernie and he made a cue out of it.

Other than a few conversions of Titlists over the years, that's the extent of spliced cues that came out of the Gina shop. None spliced by Ernie.

Tad also never spliced a cue himself. Tad used Titlist arms, and Katz blanks and made some Titlist conversions also.

Kevin

And just 1 more a bit more recently.....:)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=274060

Joe

Toncam
06-08-2013, 01:45 AM
Its amazingly well done. I assume you have these type things in all endeavors such as music for instance, the Stradavarius violin for example. I dont know much about the man, but i did get to hit a few balls with one of his cues years ago owned by a friend of mine here in town. If i remember right he said he paid something like $2500 for it and that was quite a while ago, im assuming he bought it in the 70s more or less, not sure.