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Neil
07-02-2010, 07:44 AM
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Poolfiend
07-02-2010, 07:50 AM
My first instinct is to play the one ball down by the corner pocket next to the 3 and 9 and tuck the cue ball behind the 8. That way I am likely to get bih and pocket the one with an easier break out on the 3,9.

Aaron_S
07-02-2010, 07:53 AM
Thanks for the situation, Neil. Always enjoy looking at them. Since neither the 1 or 2 are laying all that well for the breakout on the 3, I might just take my chances with a safety like this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKVg1BXoV3CBlj4DUkH4ENUc3FVKW2GJtB2HYAb3IEGe2PK nY2UKVg3UCSQ3UCKT4UHIF3dEGe3dFEj3dJUR2kKnY2kKux2ka vu2kaOp@

If I were going to go for the breakout, I might try for a firm one-rail hit on the 9 with low-left, hoping for something like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKVg1BXoV3CBlj4DUkH4ENUc3FVKW2GJtB2HYAb3IEGe4PF WI2UKVg2UcIs3WBlj3WAfl4WORt3dEGe3dEOj3dFDb4kFWI2kJ XS3kavx3kGbX3kGrl3kFyk@

Aaron

muddawg
07-02-2010, 07:54 AM
Shoot the 1 in the side and follow up a few inches. Make the 2 ball in the corner with low or low-right and come out to the center of the table. Hit the left side of the 3 and put the cue ball behind the 4.

spanky79
07-02-2010, 07:55 AM
i would make the 1 and the 2 and then thin the left side of the 3 sending the cue ball some were below the 8 ball

twal
07-02-2010, 07:57 AM
Shoot the 1 into the side or to the bottom left corner.
Personally I would go into the side and ues a 1/2 tip of top to break out the 3,9. Hit it hard enough so the CB is not stuck on the bootom rail and you should still have a shot at the 2. It is wide open.
From there if you miss the break out then play safe.
If you get the break out I am pretty sure the 3 is not going to roll in front of a pocket for an easy shot after the 2. So as well all know some time in pool we just need to make a good shot and maybe a little luck :smile:

Personally, I play to much D and not enough O. I need to trust myself more and more.

I think it is better to loose by missing a shot than missing safe where you missed position.

NewStroke
07-02-2010, 08:01 AM
I have been playing Pool 300, a purely offensive game. www.pool300.com for more info. I would shoot the one into the bottom side and try the break out the 3. The two is in pretty good shape to drop it after the break out. crap, called to do my job. I'll add more soon.

Black-Balled
07-02-2010, 08:01 AM
I think I shoot the 1b in the top R pocket, as pictured. Angle to superpower draw into the 39 as the 2b is in front of the hole.

Safe no too bad, using the 1b to break 39, but you cant whack it like you should to break em out. That said, if you feather it and stick cb on the 8 you may have 2fouls and 1b in a cluster.

I like to whack it.

Aaron_S
07-02-2010, 08:06 AM
Safe no too bad, using the 1b to break 39, but you cant whack it like you should to break em out. That said, if you feather it and stick cb on the 8 you may have 2fouls and 1b in a cluster.

I like to whack it.

And if the 1 and 9 roll out nicely, you may have a cheesy poof for the next shot. :D

Aaron

Neil
07-02-2010, 08:43 AM
.................

pt109
07-02-2010, 08:46 AM
You have BIH in a 9 ball game. What would you do here, and HOW would you do it, and why?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKVg1BXoV3CBlj4DUkH4ENUc3FVKW2GJtB2HYAb3IEGe@

My choice is a bit like Aaron.
But i would hit the 9 half ball to move the 3 while tucking whitey behind
the 8.
If the 4 wasn't there i would pley the break-out off the side rail with speed,but you won't make it easy,will you?

btw,what's with the new title?
How would you play this? is a good title for an instructional book.

Some of the horror stories you come up with would make Stephen King
jealous. :grin:

NewStroke
07-02-2010, 08:50 AM
For those that would play the safe behind the 8- that is an easy one to aim, just a hair above a stun shot. But the speed is tricky. If your speed is a little off, you might have a pretty good chance of leaving a shot on the one with a breakout on the 3-9. Have you considered that option happening??

To those that would shoot the one in the bottom side, or corner, how would you aim it so that you knew you would pocket the one and still hit the 3-9?? Or would you just try for it and hope you hit it??

For the one in the upper corner, and draw back off the rail for the breakout, how would you aim that one, or would you just go on feel??

I'd try to hit it at a slight angle with a bit of top to bend the cue ball into the 9. I would even condider a bit a left english to help getting off the rail or the nine depending where I hit. I can definately see the shot, just having a bit of trouble articulating today.

Beware_of_Dawg
07-02-2010, 08:59 AM
seems pretty stright forward with a safety valve if you miss... play the 1 into the bottom corner past the 4, using a slight angle/follow to break out the 3, you can play it pretty agressive because the table is reasonably opn to the 2 ball... if successful breaking the 3 out... minimal chance of hooking urself or leaving no shot to the 2.. run from there. If you miss the breakout on the 3... take your medicine, pocket the 2 ball and use the built in safe the 3-9 provides... simply thin the 3, it s momentum is stopped cold by the carom into the 9.... bring the CB back up to the opposite end of the table... very little chance of being re-safed and the only shot opponent gets on the 3 is a tough bank.... like my odds in this rack big time.

pt109
07-02-2010, 09:03 AM
I'd try to hit it at a slight angle with a bit of top to bend the cue ball into the 9. I would even condider a bit a left english to help getting off the rail or the nine depending where I hit. I can definately see the shot, just having a bit of trouble articulating today.

You may snooker yourself hitting the 3 or the 9.
That's why i like hitting the 9 and putting the guy in jail behind the 8.
And if you get it tight,you're throwig away the key.

Neil
07-02-2010, 09:08 AM
................

Cory in DC
07-02-2010, 09:09 AM
i would make the 1 and the 2 and then thin the left side of the 3 sending the cue ball some were below the 8 ball

Why not go for the breakout? You will most likely still be able to do this if you miss the 3/9.

Neil
07-02-2010, 09:12 AM
..............

Beware_of_Dawg
07-02-2010, 09:13 AM
Did I win ?

lol.

Black-Balled
07-02-2010, 09:17 AM
Did I win ?

lol.


No, you dick! You dogged t he 2 and it was one of the longest games EVER.

I had to call the pool hall later to see who fuggin won!

Neil
07-02-2010, 09:22 AM
..............

Kickin' Chicken
07-02-2010, 09:32 AM
Came the closest so far with a good explanation of your thinking on the layout, but how would you set the cb to make the one and maximize your chances of hitting the 3-9???

Before reading any responses, based on the table you provided I was hitting the one down the corner, as well, with a breakout on the 3/9. I would set the cueball up with the 30% angle rule in mind (the peace sign - index and middle finger) and striking the cueball at 2 o'clock.

Should break them out and the two is makeable from most of the table.

Best,
Brian kc

Neil
07-02-2010, 09:35 AM
...............

pt109
07-02-2010, 09:46 AM
Yes, it is possible, but if you control your speed and just try to separate them and not send them flying all over the table, your chances of hooking yourself are real, real, low. Not enough to worry about IMHO.

I hooked myself once when i was a kid...
...i've been snakebit ever since....:smile:

Kickin' Chicken
07-02-2010, 09:52 AM
Come on guys, I know there are some real good players reading this thread. No one knows how to aim to know where to set the cb to maximize breaking out the 3-9?? Does everyone on here only go by 'feel'??

I have a way that I came up with years ago, that may very well be in print, but I don't recall seeing it in print. I'm sure there are several ways to aim it or carom players would have a real problem. I was hoping to see some way to aim it different than I do, but no one wants to 'spill the beans' if they do have a way.

edit- Thanks Kicken' Chicken, that's one way to aim it. Any others??

Neil, I just went to my rec room and set it up. Made the breakout 4 out of 5; the one that missed was by 2 inches.My fault.

Just slightly offset from straight, cue ball on the headstring back in the direction of the top corner, and hit with 2 o'clock on the cue ball, I watched as whitey and number 1 made their 30% seperation as they went down table, very nicely.

Is there a better percentage way to break them out? I can't think of one...

Best,
Brian kc

Neil
07-02-2010, 09:56 AM
..............

Neil
07-02-2010, 10:01 AM
....................

Aaron_S
07-02-2010, 10:13 AM
As far as the breakout goes, I choose the 1-rail with low-left because:

a) the target appears to be bigger when you come in from that angle. You can hit 1 rail or two and still make contact with the 9, or if you come too short, you can still catch the 3.

b) I always look for the most natural path for a breakout. the 1-rail with low-left requires a variation from the tangent line, but not a dramatic one such as force-following would be.

c) unlike sending the cueball straight down table at the cluster, coming in at an angle carries less risk of having the cueball ending up trapped at the far end of the table, possibly jacked up over something.

d) breaking out the 3 from that angle guarantees that the 3 moves toward a fairly open part of the table, increasing the likelihood of getting all the way out.

e) on my table at home, at least, it appears that a firm hit with maximum low-left would be just about perfect for the shot. I view "maximums" kind of like a golfer views a full swing; it is easier to predict and replicate than a 70% swing. my maximum draw is far more predictable than my 70% draw, etc.

Is that what you wanted Neil? :smile:

Aaron

Black-Balled
07-02-2010, 10:18 AM
IMO, there are too many variables to have a 'system'.

Gotta be mainly feel.

Underclocked
07-02-2010, 10:25 AM
Neil hit the shot exactly as shown but the cue ball caromed off the nine hitting the head rail... side rail, and stopped squarely behind the 6. :D

Andrew Manning
07-02-2010, 10:27 AM
IMO, there are too many variables to have a 'system'.

Gotta be mainly feel.

There's certainly gotta be feel involved, because this shot requires a certain amount of speed, and you have to judge how much that speed is going to mess with your carom angle. But for a rolling CB, the system Neil posted is really quite accurate. You draw a line from the center of the ball you're caroming off (the 1) to where you want the CB to go (the 9), and you aim the cue towards the place where that line exits the first ball. The harder you shoot, the more the final CB angle adjusts itself back towards the 90-degree tangent, and so you have to adjust for that.

-Andrew

paksat
07-02-2010, 10:38 AM
I'd shoot the one in the corner and draw straight back into the 9/3.

If i somehow missed it, i'd just play safe on the 2 in some way shape or form.

Masayoshi
07-02-2010, 10:39 AM
I don't like touching the 3/9 here. I would probably try a safety leaving the cue ball behind the 8 and the one ball behind the 6. That way, I will get behind the 8 the vast majority of the time and the 6 will probably make the kick a bit tougher for my opponent. If my opponent gets lucky and kick safes me or kicks the ball in or by some chance I miss the safety, he still has to deal with the 3/9. Also, if my opponent fouls, I can use the 6 to try to 3 foul him.

Trying to break out the cluster from the safety is tough. The area the 1 will land in doesn't leave much room for error on the cue ball and if you hit the cluster a bit thin, the 1 ball might even come back into the open. If you miss hiding the cue ball you've lost, if your opponent gets a roll, you've lost. Frankly, I don't like those odds.

Trying to run out from here isn't easy, but I might try it on a faster table on a good day. Hill-hill in an important match, I would probably play safe.

Neil
07-02-2010, 10:46 AM
................

The Schwartz
07-02-2010, 10:52 AM
I'd probably just miss the ball-in-hand the way I've been shooting lately lol

deadstroke13
07-02-2010, 11:26 AM
I would shoot the 1 in the side follow a few inches, 2 in the right foot corner pocket. Then I would use alot of draw back, and go for the 3-9 combo cross side.

Spimp13
07-02-2010, 11:31 AM
What size of table were you shooting on? This may determine if I want to go offensive or defensive. The safe above isn't bad, but I would be willing to bet some people might not hit that safe well (possibly myself included). They will either not have the speed or angle to leave the cue ball behind the 8...depends on the skill level. Also is the 3 froze? If this is a 9 foot table and you are uncomfortable trying the safe above you can try a different safe. You can shoot the 1 and then the 2 drawing to somewhere in the middle of the table. Depending on where the cue ball ends up you might be able to double kiss the cue ball hitting straight into the 3 (on a big table) leaving maximum distance between the the 3 and the cue ball. If you don't get the correct angle for that you might be able to thin the 3 and do something similar with the distance and the cue ball. Once again I might like this if I am not confident with the safety listed above, and if this is on a big table. It also might depend on how close the 9 is on the 3 for the hit...diagrams are hard to tell sometimes.

Also...nobody questioned who Neil was playing or what speed they play. That may also determine if I go offensive or defensive.

peteypooldude
07-02-2010, 11:55 AM
I might put the 1 up by the 3 and cb behind the 8

Neil
07-02-2010, 12:16 PM
...............

RunoutJJ
07-02-2010, 01:25 PM
First i would like to say that there are so many different ways to handle this situation so what i say could be wrong or the way others would do it is not entirely wrong. Everybody shoots differently but i truely believe that playing the percentages is the way to go.



The one appoarch of shooting the one in the side to break up the 3-9 is a very risky shot. Reason being is that two bad things could happen...


1.) You break the 3-9 out but the 3 abll gets tied up on the 5 near the corner so your back to square one.

2.) You break out the 3-9 and the 3 is out in the open but you came across the right side of the 9 a little to hard and float the cueball behind the 6 ball leaving you in jail and a very possible CBIH situation for your opponent to runout the rest of the broken up rack.


Now think about a more defensive / Offensive appoarch to this. I would (again this is my appoarch so it may not be the best but i like my odds :smile:) make the 1 ball in the pocket where the 2 ball is. Leave a good angle on the 2 ball to float down the side rail just past the side pocket in line (or straight in line) with the 4 ball.

You have a right cut angle on the 3-9 cluster so i would graze the 3ball (rail first) with top right and clip the 3 into the 9 ball keeping it on the end rail and have the cueball head up table near the 8 ball.

No matter where the cueball ends up your opponent is either gonna have a tough combo on the 5 ball or a carom at the 5 which are sell out shots if missed (or possible if made) leaving you out.

I dont understand why everybody has to try and break up a cluster... Get shape and then runout. Isnt it easier to leave the hard stuff for your opponent to do knowing that if he or she screws up their done??

JMO ;)

Neil
07-02-2010, 02:04 PM
................

elvicash
07-02-2010, 02:29 PM
Here's another example of the same principle... the cb and the 8 are both froze to the rail. The easiest way to win from here is to just aim the center of the cb to where a line from the 9 comes into the 8. Try it a few times. If you didn't know this shot, it will come in handy for you.
The same principle can also be used for safes.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4HbOy2IXhY4PbAb2dXhY4dYrn4kbAb4kaAM@



I like this system I will try this carom on the nine ball shortly

Thanks for sharing

Update - I went 3 for 6 on this shot missed the first 2 real short. I have to put a little action on the ball to keep it going but too much kills the line. Cool shot I still need to work on picking the point to setup/aim.

alstl
07-02-2010, 02:30 PM
1 in the side, whitey hard into the 3/9.

RunoutJJ
07-02-2010, 02:42 PM
Like you said.. Your post has merit but again i would like point out this is what i would have done. The beauty of this layout is the mass amounts of appoarch to the rack.

I just saw it as being on the safe side more than the agressive appoarch. I like to play safe and veiw myself as a good safety player so it really depends on your opponent. I rather get into a safety battle with somebody than the risk of breaking balls apart in this manner. Again this is just my opinion and everybody has their own appoarch or tactic to the game. Isnt that why we love to watch the different top players?? Their games and styles are all so unquie.. Just like everybody else.

I really dont think there's a right and wrong (unless its really bad) situation here. I think it comes down to how comfortable you are in executing certain shots.

Neil
07-02-2010, 02:59 PM
................

peteypooldude
07-02-2010, 03:22 PM
I might put the 1 up by the 3 and cb behind the 8

What do you think about this option Neil

Neil
07-02-2010, 03:35 PM
.............

peteypooldude
07-02-2010, 03:45 PM
It is a viable option, but not my first choice. If you get behind the 8 correctly, he should have a very low chance of hitting the one. The problem is getting the cb right where you need it. Not as easy as it looks on cuetable diagrams!

The main reason I wouldn't do that in this case, is that it adds another chance for him to get to the table. There really is no need for him to get back to the table, not yet anyways. If I do get BIH after playing that safe, what have I gained? Really, nothing. I still have to break out the 3-9 with the one. I could easily have done that without him getting to the table, so why let him have a chance at getting lucky and doing something crazy??

My reasoning was if you get the 1 closer to the cluster,and get BIH it would be easier to break out the cluster and with the 2 that close to the pocket ,have a good chance of getting a shot

oldzilla
07-02-2010, 04:12 PM
My reasoning was if you get the 1 closer to the cluster,and get BIH it would be easier to break out the cluster and with the 2 that close to the pocket ,have a good chance of getting a shot

You are right Petey as Aaron was with his first suggestion being the same idea. Neil doesn't say what size table he is referring to. He did say it was a friend who had this situation but sidestepped the question of table size. I think Neil is a 7x3.5 kinda guy. Not me I grew up on 9ft gold crowns. Big difference there. Guys who just play 7ft tables will get drilled when they try to play someone with 9ft skills.

Neil
07-02-2010, 04:14 PM
..............

JohnnyOzone
07-02-2010, 04:37 PM
Like you said.. Your post has merit but again i would like point out this is what i would have done. The beauty of this layout is the mass amounts of appoarch to the rack.

I just saw it as being on the safe side more than the agressive appoarch. I like to play safe and veiw myself as a good safety player so it really depends on your opponent. I rather get into a safety battle with somebody than the risk of breaking balls apart in this manner. Again this is just my opinion and everybody has their own appoarch or tactic to the game. Isnt that why we love to watch the different top players?? Their games and styles are all so unquie.. Just like everybody else.

I really dont think there's a right and wrong (unless its really bad) situation here. I think it comes down to how comfortable you are in executing certain shots.

A couple of things, JJ.

First, if you hit the 3 rail first, the cue ball will go almost straight uptable, RH english or not, because it comes off the tangent line with the 3 ball. You'd have to hit the 3 first with some RH english to go toward the side rail where the 8 is. Even that is not so great because bad things can happen. You could use too much english and hit off the left side of the 8 and scratch; you could scratch in the upper corner; and you aren't going to snooker the opponent anyhow with this shot.

I agree there isn't a right or wrong in this discussion - but there is a good, better, best. I think the 1 in the side breaking out the 3 is best, mainly because the 2 is in front of a pocket.

(And besides - if you'd rather get into a safety battle, then you should change your handle from runoutjj to 3fouljj !!) j/k

I've always used the 30 degree rule as a starting point in aiming these follow shot breakouts, but big thanks to Neil for showing another way to line up the shot. Can't wait to try it!

Neil
07-02-2010, 04:49 PM
..............

RunoutJJ
07-02-2010, 05:59 PM
A couple of things, JJ.

First, if you hit the 3 rail first, the cue ball will go almost straight uptable, RH english or not, because it comes off the tangent line with the 3 ball. You'd have to hit the 3 first with some RH english to go toward the side rail where the 8 is. Even that is not so great because bad things can happen. You could use too much english and hit off the left side of the 8 and scratch; you could scratch in the upper corner; and you aren't going to snooker the opponent anyhow with this shot.

I agree there isn't a right or wrong in this discussion - but there is a good, better, best. I think the 1 in the side breaking out the 3 is best, mainly because the 2 is in front of a pocket.

(And besides - if you'd rather get into a safety battle, then you should change your handle from runoutjj to 3fouljj !!) j/k

I've always used the 30 degree rule as a starting point in aiming these follow shot breakouts, but big thanks to Neil for showing another way to line up the shot. Can't wait to try it!



I wish i could actually show you the angle of the safety on the 3ball. If you look at the diagram to where i said the cue ball should be (right past the side in line with the 4 ball) then the path of the cue ball (after hitting the 3 rail first) will go towards the corner pocket where the 8 ball is. Possibly hitting the end rail and coming to rest up against the 8 which would be the icing on the cake.

If you really what to get technical about cueing the cue with the english required to get to where im talkng about its a little bit above center and right (which is right follow) and a little bit before the 3 on the rail. I shoot this shot when it comes up and i almost always get the results i just mentioned. Sorry if you dont see that happening but it is possible. If you hit this shot all the time you learn HOW to hit it with control.

JMS
07-03-2010, 11:04 PM
Here's a better diagram that might explain it better- you are aiming the center of the cb (the dotted one is your cb) to the point where the yellow line contacts the one. Then you manuever the cb around to where it is also in position to make the one while doing that.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKVg1BXoV3CBlj4DUkH4ENUc3FVKW2GJtB2HYAb3IEGe2PT UU2QMym2UKVg3UEfO2kTUU2kIBM2lMym1lbtD@

Neil this system is documented in the book: MODERN POOL by Ralph Eckert. In the book he also has a system for controlling draw by a similar method. Those 2 systems are well worth the price of the book. Modern Pool is one of my favorite books of all time.

Tommy-D
07-04-2010, 02:13 AM
> I might consider the same side-pocket break out attempt,in a slightly different way.

I might be crazy here,but it might work best if you came in on the high side of the 9,and moved the 9 with the cue ball going RAIL FIRST,using left spin,with enough speed to come out like this.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKVg1BXoV3CBlj4DUkH4ENUc3FVKW2GJtB2HYAb3IEGe2PT UU2QMym4RMEp2UKVg3UEfO3dEGe4dGJb4dGRY4dGRY4dGJf2lM ym3lGbn3lDml3uBWM@

You'd want to use a touch of high left here,and make sure that if you do err a little,that the middle of the 9 is better than not clipping it at all.

I'd hit this good and firm too,making sure to get the cue ball back towards the middle of the table because the last thing you want to have happen is to accomplish the breakout,and be dead straight with no chance of getting back up table on the 3. In my example,I'd be playing position for a possible 3-rail "swing" route up table to a spot at about B.

I kind of like the idea of shooting the one in the upper-right corner on the diagram and taking a 1-2 rail draw route to the same spot on the 9 I mentioned,like Aaron suggests. Tommy D.

Aaron_S
07-04-2010, 08:05 AM
I do agree that the runout isn't that bad. If that 3/9 comes apart decent and you come up with a shot on the 2 you should be in good shape. Although I'm still not a fan of shooting the 1 in the side and coming straight down for the breakout. The odds of contacting the cluster may be higher that way, but the odds of ending up jacked up over a ball or frozen to the rail are way higher, and it does you no good to get the 3 out if you end up straight in on the 2-ball and jacked straight up in the air. If those balls were a foot off the rail, however, I would shoot it that way every time.

But I still think I prefer playing the safety with my BIH and breaking out the 3/9 at the same time. There's no runout here unless the 3/9 comes apart, and if you don't get them separated, you're going to have to play a safety off of the 3. The "wait and see what happens, you can always play a safety later" approach works in a lot of racks, but look at the positions of the other balls. There's not much to hide behind other than the 4, and even if you get there (which is just as touchy as the safety behind the 8, IMO), you're leaving your opp an easy 1-rail kick with the 9-ball possibly in play on a kick-combo or kick-carom.

I like my odds of getting out here, but I like my odds even better with my opponent (assuming it's not Efren) kicking two rails at the 1-ball with 1 foul under his belt and possible 1-9 combo for me if he misses.

Aaron

3RAILKICK
07-04-2010, 11:20 AM
Here's a better diagram that might explain it better- you are aiming the center of the cb (the dotted one is your cb) to the point where the yellow line contacts the one. Then you manuever the cb around to where it is also in position to make the one while doing that.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKVg1BXoV3CBlj4DUkH4ENUc3FVKW2GJtB2HYAb3IEGe2PT UU2QMym2UKVg3UEfO2kTUU2kIBM2lMym1lbtD@

Neil-thanks for sharing another nice toolbox item.

Got lucky once combining safe/'roll the 9'with this method. Handy when you don't want to leave CB and 9ball close to each other in the likely case of a miss. In this case-force follow-other speeds and ball apart distances are worth practicing (a little) for yucks.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AGQX1BHVS1CNqt1DFTA2EBIy3FYhX1GJjY2HDun3IRTv4PI kT3UGQX3Ubas3UNUp4UbYX2UbGr1UEGn3dRTv3dcIn3dcIn4kI kT3kDvQ3kDvP3kEUS3kHvm3kPPi2uDCI@

I'm sort of undecided between 'keep em coming, Neil' and 'shssssh'.

Neil
07-04-2010, 12:13 PM
...........

robleyf7
07-04-2010, 01:12 PM
i would make the 1 in the side break out the 3-9 an if i get a good roll i would run out

or i would play the 1 into the 9 an tuck the CB behind the 8 either way