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View Full Version : follow up to thread titled:Interesting stick I need I.D.- for the experts


12310bch
09-23-2010, 07:00 PM
First of all, let me thank you all for your responses. I received the stick and have attached my photos. It is the job of an expert to be skeptical when presented with, ''Newly Found Works of Art."

Well, I'm going out on the limb( been there before)and submit to all you folks that what I have found, the subject cue of the attached photos, is a
signature cue of Michael Eufemia made by the legendary Doc Fry. For
comparison I have included a picture of a Doc Fry cue from the Blue Book of Cues ' Gallery of Cues'.

RATS!! GIVE ME A FEW MINUTES TO GET THIS RIGHT.

greyghost
09-23-2010, 07:24 PM
nooo i thought we decided that was a RICH CUE.....not an ABE Rich....Just a RICH CUE

12310bch
09-23-2010, 08:20 PM
until I find out where I hid the rest of the photos, GG, compare the butt ring design of my cue to Doc Fry's. Additionally, the two tone wrap. Also, Rich cues of New York were a low end cue . You will see when I find the pictures that this is a High end cue. Look again, the butt matches the Fry cue exactly , except for color. And nothing was decided, only speculated. This is not a New York Rich cue.

Everything , except probability, points to this being a Doc Fry cue. Butpossibility has not been not ruled out.
Show me a Rich cue with this exact pattern of ring work Betcha ya can't!!!


AARRGH !!!

Pushout
09-23-2010, 08:31 PM
Need better pictures but it sure looks like a Rich to me.

Edit: I've seen several Doc Fry cues, they certainly wouldn't be considered high end, any more than an early Rich.

CocoboloCowboy
09-23-2010, 08:43 PM
I would PM TATE and or IBUYCUE for their HELP!

manwon
09-23-2010, 09:03 PM
[QUOTE=12310bch;2625792]until I find out where I hid the rest of the photos, GG, compare the butt ring design of my cue to Doc Fry's. Additionally, the two tone wrap. Also, Rich cues of New York were a low end cue . You will see when I find the pictures that this is a High end cue. Look again, the butt matches the Fry cue exactly , except for color. And nothing was decided, only speculated. This is not a New York Rich cue.

Everything , except probability, points to this being a Doc Fry cue. Butpossibility has not been not ruled out.
Show me a Rich cue with this exact pattern of ring work Betcha ya can't!!!





Deleted for content

TATE
09-23-2010, 09:45 PM
Unfortunately it was mis-identified in the Blue Book. Below is a typical Rich - notice the butt similarities?

If you Google Doc Fry Cue images, you will see they were put together differently.

Chris

12310bch
09-23-2010, 10:01 PM
Craig, I admit the the probability is the this is not what I would want. But that there is the possibility, as small as that might be. I respect the opinion of the experts highly.And I mean no discredit to them as there seems to be
among the posts on the subject,some interest in finding out exactly what it is, especially since it has Eufemia's name on it. Why the hell would any sane person stop here , use it for firewood, and go on their merry way? There is some history here.

Oh, and I am a little disappointed in some of the wording you used in your post. Because it appears that in this case that you are the one not willing to learn more as it is evident that this cue is keeping a secret or two to teach. us.

manwon
09-23-2010, 10:24 PM
Craig, I admit the the probability is the this is not what I would want. But that there is the possibility, as small as that might be. I respect the opinion of the experts highly.And I mean no discredit to them as there seems to be
among the posts on the subject,some interest in finding out exactly what it is, especially since it has Eufemia's name on it. Why the hell would any sane person stop here , use it for firewood, and go on their merry way? There is some history here.

Oh, and I am a little disappointed in some of the wording you used in your post. Because it appears that in this case that you are the one not willing to learn more as it is evident that this cue is keeping a secret or two to teach. us.



I apologize and I do understand your frustration with this subject it can be very confusing.

I wish you well in your quest.

Here is example of what they call Glitter Rings, this is the type of material Doc Fry used in for rings in his cues, theseare also waht they are talking about in the Blue Book of Cues. This cue is an unidentified cue that I have in my shop, chances are I will never know who made it.

153584

TATE
09-23-2010, 10:30 PM
Craig, I admit the the probability is the this is not what I would want. But that there is the possibility, as small as that might be. I respect the opinion of the experts highly.And I mean no discredit to them as there seems to be
among the posts on the subject,some interest in finding out exactly what it is, especially since it has Eufemia's name on it. Why the hell would any sane person stop here , use it for firewood, and go on their merry way? There is some history here.

Oh, and I am a little disappointed in some of the wording you used in your post. Because it appears that in this case that you are the one not willing to learn more as it is evident that this cue is keeping a secret or two to teach. us.

I'll try to get another opinion from someone very knowledgeable about Rich cues (and to a smaller extent, Fry Cues) and I will get back to you. I am sure he will have some knowledge of this.

Also, looking at that signature - it looks like it's burnt in on a die, similar to the Willie Hoppe signature Brunswick was doing well before this. They wouldn't make a die just for one cue. I wonder if this was some kind of line Rich had going. I've asked about that as well and we'll see what we can dig up.

Chris

Pushout
09-24-2010, 12:13 PM
Now that I've seen the joint, it looks even more like a Rich to me.

hdgis1
09-24-2010, 01:18 PM
Im just gonna throw this out there for consideration - That is one ugly cue!:grin:

Chris

Scott Lee
09-24-2010, 02:30 PM
Chris...It seems even more unlikely that a die would have been made for Mike Eufemia, as he was typically only known as a hustler/gambler...as opposed to Hoppe, who was well known as a many time world champion.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'll try to get another opinion from someone very knowledgeable about Rich cues (and to a smaller extent, Fry Cues) and I will get back to you. I am sure he will have some knowledge of this.

Also, looking at that signature - it looks like it's burnt in on a die, similar to the Willie Hoppe signature Brunswick was doing well before this. They wouldn't make a die just for one cue. I wonder if this was some kind of line Rich had going. I've asked about that as well and we'll see what we can dig up.

Chris

greyghost
09-24-2010, 02:36 PM
I'll try to get another opinion from someone very knowledgeable about Rich cues (and to a smaller extent, Fry Cues) and I will get back to you. I am sure he will have some knowledge of this.

Also, looking at that signature - it looks like it's burnt in on a die, similar to the Willie Hoppe signature Brunswick was doing well before this. They wouldn't make a die just for one cue. I wonder if this was some kind of line Rich had going. I've asked about that as well and we'll see what we can dig up.

Chris



I didn't want to open my mouth to possibly put my foot in it on the first thread b/c i was not sure.......

b/f all the speculation i honestly had it in my mind that it was a Rich cue.

Tho my memory is fantastic its no where near Jay Helferts (his brain must have mac OS 10.5 lol)

Anyways it was a faint memory and has been growing strong the more i think about it.

Some were around 7-9 years ago I saw a cue I swear was exactly like that and had Mike Eufemia's name on it......I'm very certain that it was a Rich cue.....AND that it was a LINE OF CUES.....

sort of like the Jean Balakus heublers.

I'll admit I'm not 100% but I'm toeing the line at 90%

main reason being that RICH cues are not nearly worth what a Doc Frye is worth. I remember the cue selling for something like 300-500 and just couldn't see it attaining in value to want to buy it.

If it had been a Doc Fry for that price I would have snapped it up as it would have been worth at least double that maybe triple at the time.

It was on ebay and the seller had plenty of info on it if I remember correctly. At the time I was looking for another old cue and it was one that i was very interested in. I got lucky and found a super sweet pretty old Huebler 4pt/4v with ivory inlay and chain rings every where, came with 2 shafts in the same range of price @ like $300....that Huebler is one of the prettiest i and many have ever saw and its nearly doubled in price from what i paid for it.


Anyways I'm rambling.

POINT A: Your cue has a RICH BUMPER ON IT......so its a RICH

POINT B: If it were a Doc Fry then you could take out the bumper and there is most often a penny shoved up in the hole from the year that it was made. He would go to the bank and get a big sack of new pennies from that year to "date" the cues.

Its still a nice cue brother, its just not worth a mint like a Fry would be if in fine condition. But i think its pretty obvious now that its not a Fry even if i exclude my possibly faulty memory.

I would send it off tho and get it cleaned or refinished without damaging the sig and other original parts. Its def not a common cue, and since its a Worst cue that makes it even a more cool piece of pool history.

Even with what Jay said about him not being a big enough name.....well he was a big enough name in New York from what I know and that was a New York cue company so I don't think it to be far fetched idea to think that he had a line....as for the cost of a die.....CHEAP that was not and has never been expensive to make a burning tool for signing wood. They used to wright in clay and dry it, make a clay and sand form with it and pour the alloy and bang its done....that would have been the easiest part to making that cue with that signature......they could have just had his sig and carbon copied it and used a wood burning pen to do the work?



good find,
-Grey Ghost

CocoboloCowboy
09-24-2010, 02:37 PM
??So who is the EXPERT the Owner should send the Cue to for an Authentication, and what does this person charge for said service.??

TATE
09-24-2010, 04:11 PM
Chris...It seems even more unlikely that a die would have been made for Mike Eufemia, as he was typically only known as a hustler/gambler...as opposed to Hoppe, who was well known as a many time world champion.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I couldn't dig up anything on it or a line of Michael Euphemia cues.

He was very well known on the East Coast. He won a couple of big tournaments and was New York State Champ, but you're right, he was a money player.

If this was a line of cues, I doubt it was ever made in much quantity, because the people I know were very involved with he East Coast and would surely have seen something like this.

The imprint is some sort of commercial die hot stamp - a fairly expensive process just to put a name on a cue without the thought of production.

I have a cue with Earl's name imprinted on it on it that was supposed to be a line cue that never got produced, so it does happen.

Chris

manwon
09-24-2010, 04:46 PM
??So who is the EXPERT the Owner should send the Cue to for an Authentication, and what does this person charge for said service.??

Cowboy, Joe from classiccues is about as good as it gets, along with Tate it doesn't get much better. I have had more than a number of Rich Cue Company cues in my hands also. But, there are no records that are available or catalogs so many of these cues are mis-identified because they are similar. I personally think the cue is a Rich Cue Company cue, do to all the design characteristics. The doesn't even have the Glitter Ring material associated with Doc's cues, if it were mine that what I would call it.

It is a nice example of a period cue when many designs over lapped and with the signature it is very interesting, but that is all it is. It still makes for a nice collectible cue with the signature and it is in good condition, so as long as the owner did not pay to much for it, it is certainly a win win situation.

Cuaba
09-30-2010, 05:12 PM
Unfortunately it was mis-identified in the Blue Book. Below is a typical Rich - notice the butt similarities?

If you Google Doc Fry Cue images, you will see they were put together differently.

Chris

Chris, I believe you are correct. This was an honest mistake caused by the circumstances involved in the production of the book.

That ordeal continues to haunt me.

classiccues
09-30-2010, 05:38 PM
It was a Rich then.. and it's more a Rich today.... or Mastercraft....

JV

12310bch
09-30-2010, 09:17 PM
I have emailed Brad Simpson, author of the Bluebook ,to explain the cue picture on page 48 as follows:

Dear Mr. Simpson

It has come to my attention that one of the the cue sticks represented
by you to be created by Doc Fry is incorrect. At least that is what the consensus of opinion is of some of the more knowledgeable people involved in that interest.

My problem is that I bought a cue stick partly dependent on that representation. What I ask of you is that either help me document that it is in fact a Doc Fry cue or that you provide me with the name of the correct maker of the cue.

I am asking you to do this for me as a favor. I do not hold you responsible in any way for the confusion. But somebody made that stick whether it be Doc Fry or not.

I have made some claims that it was Doc Fry and received nothing more than a chuckle, eyes rolled, and a condescending shake of the head.

I have attached a comparison of my cue to your Gallery picture of the purported Doc Fry cue along with other photos of the cue in my possession. You will note , and this is what first attracted me to the cue, that Michael Eufemia's signature is branded onto the shaft.

Please help me out . Regards, :shrug:

TATE
09-30-2010, 09:33 PM
Chris, I believe you are correct. This was an honest mistake caused by the circumstances involved in the production of the book.

That ordeal continues to haunt me.


I am amazed by the quality and size of the Blue Book and you deserve a standing ovation for what you went through to put that book out! That was truly a huge effort and you did, and continue to do, an amazing job!

Can't wait for the next one if we're so lucky!

See you soon too,

Chris

TATE
09-30-2010, 09:37 PM
I have emailed Brad Simpson, author of the Bluebook ,to explain the cue picture on page 48 as follows:

Dear Mr. Simpson

It has come to my attention that one of the the cue sticks represented
by you to be created by Doc Fry is incorrect. At least that is what the consensus of opinion is of some of the more knowledgeable people involved in that interest.

My problem is that I bought a cue stick partly dependent on that representation. What I ask of you is that either help me document that it is in fact a Doc Fry cue or that you provide me with the name of the correct maker of the cue.

I am asking you to do this for me as a favor. I do not hold you responsible in any way for the confusion. But somebody made that stick whether it be Doc Fry or not.

I have made some claims that it was Doc Fry and received nothing more than a chuckle, eyes rolled, and a condescending shake of the head.

I have attached a comparison of my cue to your Gallery picture of the purported Doc Fry cue along with other photos of the cue in my possession. You will note , and this is what first attracted me to the cue, that Michael Eufemia's signature is branded onto the shaft.

Please help me out . Regards, :shrug:

Just curious, how much did you pay and was it advertised as a Doc Fry cue? Where did you buy it?

The Blue Book is just a reference - the best available anywhere. I see many fewer mistakes in the BB than I do on some web sites.


Chris

12310bch
10-01-2010, 06:25 AM
Tate. I meant it when I said that in no way do I hold Bluebook
responsible. I have used it for a basis of buying decisions a hundred times and will continue to do so. I too am amazed of even it's existence as a reference.

After all that's been said, I truly believe that it is not Doc Fry cue. Before I purchased the stick I knew nothing of of Doc Fry, Michael Eufemia, Abe Rich, RichQ Company, and never knew so many AZ's would offer there expertise.

All of this was worth the pittance I paid for the stick and if I could foresee the outcome beforehand I would do it again.

That being said , I still yearn to know something about the path this cue has taken to get to me.

Maybe Brad Simpson of Bluebook can help me out.

My next cue to ask about has inlays of wood from the TRUE CROSS. I may have to inquire at the Vatican to authenticate it.

Oh yes. It cost little, it was not advertised as a Doc Fry, and my source asked to be anonymous.

woodyosborne
12-11-2018, 09:13 PM
[QUOTE=12310bch;2625792]until I find out where I hid the rest of the photos, GG, compare the butt ring design of my cue to Doc Fry's. Additionally, the two tone wrap. Also, Rich cues of New York were a low end cue . You will see when I find the pictures that this is a High end cue. Look again, the butt matches the Fry cue exactly , except for color. And nothing was decided, only speculated. This is not a New York Rich cue.

Everything , except probability, points to this being a Doc Fry cue. Butpossibility has not been not ruled out.
Show me a Rich cue with this exact pattern of ring work Betcha ya can't!!!

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=479318
i think Majestic cue I is this cue