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View Full Version : What would you do here?


Neil
09-24-2010, 05:37 AM
...............

Patrick Johnson
09-24-2010, 05:48 AM
Seems pretty straightforward to me - aim to hit between the 7 & 8. You get a shot pretty much whatever happens. Worst outcome is at least as good a safety as you have now.

pj
chgo

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3FLAE4Gbio4HbaC3IMsr4PIEU3aLAE3aati4bbio4bYvN4cb aC4cYUW4kIEU3kIew7kHQM3kDAl4kaDb4kbBQ4kcHQ4kSyQ4uB nI@

poolfire
09-24-2010, 05:49 AM
is the seven and eight froze.....if seven isnt i would set up for the bank or to play safe ....bring whitey out mid table, 2nd diamond up and stop cue behind eight and send seven 3 or 4 rails up table.

Neil
09-24-2010, 05:56 AM
.............

Black-Balled
09-24-2010, 06:01 AM
I think any decent player would love to have that shot every game...in fact, I would hypothesizeize that a player of your level (Neil) would love to play every game, shooting from there, against anybody.

Bottom L/ play to strike the 8 firmly.

Neil
09-24-2010, 06:05 AM
............

Black-Balled
09-24-2010, 06:14 AM
I'm's gonna jam it into the 8. little below center and left, pretty hard. As long as your hit it underneath the line from 8 to other side rail you should get workable leave.

That said, I watched Sigel play lots recently and I would not be surprised to see a better player than I make 6 and leave CB near spot, going 3rails after 7.
I think that one is more touchy- you have to hit the cb kinda deep into that corner to take path under the 9 and I get the titty a bit too often- still very workable though.

GADawg
09-24-2010, 06:23 AM
For me, I forget about the 8. Make the 6 with about half tip low and half tip left and leave CB in the triangle to make the 7 in the corner. For my skill level about 70% I will hit the 8 and then, if I hit it, about 50% it will be on the wrong side and I will hook myself.Odds too low for me.

If somehow miss that position, bank the 7 three rails and stick the CB safe behind the 8

Patrick Johnson
09-24-2010, 06:43 AM
Seems pretty straightforward to me - aim to hit between the 7 & 8. You get a shot pretty much whatever happens. Worst outcome is at least as good a safety as you have now.

pj
chgo
Neil:
Pat, you forgot the "how" part.
My Cuetable diagram shows where and how hard I'd hit the CB (just enough force to rebound a foot off the near side rail). How hard you hit the CB depends on what spin you use. With the spin I show the hit is not very firm; I think this gives better speed control than a firmer hit higher on the CB.

pj
chgo

SUPERSTAR
09-24-2010, 06:44 AM
Is there room between the 7 and 8 to actually take the shot and make the 7?
Looks like it.

If you try to draw into the 7/8 and fail, you can leave yourself hooked on the 7.
If you try and draw into them and you hit it too good, you can bump the 8 and have the cue ball TOO close to the 7 and off angle somehow.


Personally, i'd just play position for where the cue ball is right now.
Then take an inside english shot on the 7 and come around for the 8 and you're home.
If you go too far with position on the 7 and don't have the angle to cut it in, you can always 3 rail the 7 so that it misses the 9 and hits before the side pocket and lock them up on the 8 and sending the 7 uptable, so that they can't jump it.
Just seems like a better % play with room for error then crashing into balls or trying to do trick shots.

If you play position for the bank on the 7, that means you are crashing into the 8 for position, and anything can happen at that point, both good and bad, and you basically have to get lucky to end up with a shot on the 8.

If you bank the 7 and hit the 8 full, you have good chances, but to do that, you have to draw off the 7 on the bank.
If you Roll the cue off the 7 bank, it might hit the rail, and graze the 8 as it comes off the rail, and unless you hit it hard enough to get it near the side pocket, the cue will hit the rail, come off the 8 and you will be perpendicular to the shot and have to shoot another bank or play safe anyway.

Plus, that 7 is just too damn close to the rail to bank it normally without having to stiff it with draw/inside english, HARD, and at that point, you are losing whitey anyway and hoping to get lucky if you manage to avoid the double kiss.

rustysregular10
09-24-2010, 06:58 AM
Is there room between the 7 and 8 to actually take the shot and make the 7?
Looks like it.

If you try to draw into the 7/8 and fail, you can leave yourself hooked on the 7.
If you try and draw into them and you hit it too good, you can bump the 8 and have the cue ball TOO close to the 7 and off angle somehow.


Personally, i'd just play position for where the cue ball is right now.
Then take an inside english shot on the 7 and come around for the 8 and you're home.
If you go too far with position on the 7 and don't have the angle to cut it in, you can always 3 rail the 7 so that it misses the 9 and hits before the side pocket and lock them up on the 8 and sending the 7 uptable, so that they can't jump it.
Just seems like a better % play with room for error then crashing into balls or trying to do trick shots.

If you play position for the bank on the 7, that means you are crashing into the 8 for position, and anything can happen at that point, both good and bad, and you basically have to get lucky to end up with a shot on the 8.

If you bank the 7 and hit the 8 full, you have good chances, but to do that, you have to draw off the 7 on the bank.
If you Roll the cue off the 7 bank, it might hit the rail, and graze the 8 as it comes off the rail, and unless you hit it hard enough to get it near the side pocket, the cue will hit the rail, come off the 8 and you will be perpendicular to the shot and have to shoot another bank or play safe anyway.

Plus, that 7 is just too damn close to the rail to bank it normally without having to stiff it with draw/inside english, HARD, and at that point, you are losing whitey anyway and hoping to get lucky if you manage to avoid the double kiss.


i agree with superstar. play for position where the cue ball is now. you may be able to cut the 6 ball with a little inside english and somewhat widen the angle for the cut on the 7. dont hit too firm or you could go too far and then youll have a one pocket cross corner bank. then cut the 7 with inside english and come around 2 rails for a shot on the 8. that impo looks to be the best path. very nice diagram.

paksat
09-24-2010, 07:26 AM
Looks like the 7 can be cut into the corner. Just make the 6 and bring the cb a little above where it is currently at then you have the option to use either inside or outside english to get on the 8 depending on what you're comfortable with.

Black-Balled
09-24-2010, 07:36 AM
I agree...

You all should bank the 7.

JoeyA
09-24-2010, 07:41 AM
Neil,
The how of this shot will be different for each player. Even the shot selection will be different for each player.

Personally, I would go for the break out of the 8 ball. I don't like trying to play pin point shape with the cue ball, sitting where it is right now. Trying to get the cue ball back PRECISELY to where it is, seems, well... difficult; not impossible, just difficult.

I can try to hit the 8 ball bumping it hard enough to move it away from the 7 ball, giving me a full shot on the 7 ball, rather than a difficult cut shot on the 7 ball. Additionally if I hit it poorly I might hit the 7 ball which won't be all bad either. Thirdly, if I miss both of the balls, the cue ball will be going into the side rail at a speed that I cannot be hooked behind the 8 ball and will still have an opportunity to play safe on the 7 ball or maybe even make it, depending upon where the cue ball comes to rest.

Joe V in his videos, demonstrates "precise" ways to alter the tangent line and while I know you can make this shot in all of the ways I have described, others might benefit from checking out www.pooliq.net

Good thread. Many options, most of which depend upon your skill sets and the "feeling" you have at that point in time. Sometimes just a few additional degrees in the angle can make you change your mind about how you are going to shoot the shot. The score in the match could also dictate what I would do, especially if I got questionable shape on the 7 ball.

Patrick Johnson
09-24-2010, 07:42 AM
Looks like the 7 can be cut into the corner. Just make the 6 and bring the cb a little above where it is currently at then you have the option to use either inside or outside english to get on the 8 depending on what you're comfortable with.

I think with that strategy you'd better be comfortable with inside english. Trying to go two rails to the 8 ball with the 9 ball in the way looks risky.

pj
chgo

NewStroke
09-24-2010, 07:43 AM
I'd play a stun shot on the 6 leaving the cue ball below the 7 to bank the 7 in the top left corner. The bank would be with half tip bottom left to hit the 8 up table and off the rail. From there I can run the 8 up the table or possible into a side. I thank The Beard for this out.

Neil
09-24-2010, 08:25 AM
..............

Ratta
09-24-2010, 08:28 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3FLAE4Gbio4HbaC3IMsr4PIEU@3FLAE4Gbio4HbaC3IMsr4P IEU@4Gbio4HbaC3IMsr4PCwo3RDDo4kCwo4kbaa4kGjo3karU3 kEas@4HbaC3IMsr3PDch3RBXJ3kDch4kbYl3kAWk3kbYR3kBwM @

Ok,
not using often the cuetable, teasin me sometimes that i can t draw some signs there, which would be useful imo^^ but the cuetable guys re giving no answers :(

i would choose to pocket the 6 ball and trying to get the position for the 7 over one rail- (a bit of a stun shot)- because i m not able to see the exact angle towards the 6- so i will not show up the idear of using perhaps position with follow shot over 2 rails. Imo the shot to get over one rail position to the 7 has far more percentages to be successful.

if you then get the wanted position for the 7- i would choose to use right-hand english and go for the eight-ball. it all depends a bit on how the cloth conditions are (always, :p).

After this you could choose the same shot again to make the 8-ball to get position on the 9-ball. if you played the 7 with good speed, your angle on the 8 ball will be comfortable to get a nice angle to run for the 9-ball.

IN CASE of......
sometimes there unbelievable things are happening...i swear :p
So if you have (for what reason ever) bad feelings i diagram 2- to pocket the 7 ball with right-hand english to go over 3 cushions for the 8-ball, there s another option. It sounds really much more difficult than it is(just some training sessions on it, and you ll enjoy it). if you hit the 7 from the same position with same english, but RAIL-FIRST!!!!! and hittin with the right speed- it will come out like this:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3FLAE4Gbio4HbaC3IMsr4PIEU@4Gbio4HbaC3IMsr4PIEU4R LuM4kIEU4kbiX3kbBP4kLVU@


At least, if you fail to make a proper position from the 6 towards the 7, you have good varations to play a safe ofc, too. but this would break the thread here :) Safety variations are always a bit greater than going for a runout imo. And depends more on the situation in my opinion.


Hope all worked what i tried, lol^^

lg from overseas Neil,

Ingo

Black-Balled
09-24-2010, 08:28 AM
I'd play a stun shot on the 6 leaving the cue ball below the 7 to bank the 7 in the top left corner. The bank would be with half tip bottom left to hit the 8 up table and off the rail. From there I can run the 8 up the table or possible into a side. I thank The Beard for this out.

The Beard planted a hole in your game!

Think he doesn't have a move for every angle?!

SUPERSTAR
09-24-2010, 08:45 AM
My 2nd attempt I hit the 8 on the inside table side, 8 came off the rail about 3 balls distance, the cb went up table a little bit, great angle on the 7, easy to get on the 8. All using what I KNOW. Knowledge is worthless if you don't put it into practice at the table.

May i ask what happened on your first attempt?

Neil
09-24-2010, 08:56 AM
............

SUPERSTAR
09-24-2010, 09:02 AM
Ah ok. Completely missed that.

<--limited attention span.

Black-Balled
09-24-2010, 09:02 AM
...Bump the 7 into the corner, shoot the 8 into the opposite corner up table, good position on the 9. ...easy.

That's how I visualized it happening.

Patrick Johnson
09-24-2010, 09:09 AM
This scenario came up for one of my students earlier this week. Perfect teaching moment! This person now has the "tools" to execute and choose correctly, but didn't "put 2 and 2 together".

Many of you have the same problem. You know things, but fail to use them to their fullest potential. This may help you use your knowledge correctly. It may get a little long, but I believe will be worth it.

O.K. Here's your main choices.
1. Make the 6 and play for the bank on the 7.
2. Make the 6 and play position to cut the 7.
3. Make the 6 and play position for the safe off the 7.
4. Make the 6 and play position to break out the 7 or 8.

Looking at #1- Correct choice if you are playing one pocket. You aren't. Way too much can go wrong here. Not a good choice. Immediately discarded.

#2- First, define the target area. Draw a line from the ghost ball on the 7 90 out, and from where you estimate the uptable side of the ghostball to be to where you will clear the 8. That line is app. at the upside edge of the 9. That is the triangle you would have to get into. Not a very big area, but the cb doesn't have to travel far to get there. You can also make sure you go into the 9 softly. Doing that, you give yourself more room for the cb to go 3 rails for the 8, and you hold the cb from going past your "line".

Downside to running into the 9 is you have to hit it fairly square, and NOT go behind it.

This choice has a lot of merit, as you should still be able to play a good safe on the 7 if you can't make it. Downside is coming up a little short in the triangle, not moving the 9, and you get a tricky, touchy shot.

#3-Viable choice here as well. Providing that you can reliably shoot the 7 and replace it with the cb using some speed. Downside, 3 balls left, do you really want your opponent to have another shot at the table??

#4 Another very viable option. However, most are going to take this one for granted, and have a good chance at hitting the 7, or missing both balls.

This option is the reason for the thread. So, how do we KNOW how to hit the 8? You use what you already know, or should know from previous threads on here. If you have been practicing correctly, you can do the "calculations " fast, and in your head. It took me 12 seconds to KNOW where I was going with this shot. That leaves plenty of time on a 30 sec. shot clock to actually shoot it.

So, let's break the shot down into what we already know. The first thing I look at is where is the tangent line going? That took about 1 second to determine. Next, I'm using the rail, so the shot is essentially a kick shot. Same principles apply for the most part.

So, I mentally take the distance from the 8 to the "zero " diamond, which is even with the end rail, and double it. I now mentally draw a line from that spot to the 6, and and see where it hits the rail. That is the spot I would want to hit if I was just shooting the cb from where it will be as a ghost ball to make the 6. This part took about 7 sec. to do.

Now, I compare the tangent line spot to the imaginary kick spot, and see if they match up. They don't. But, I have another tool I can use. Draw. How do I know where the draw shot will go? First, I go center cb to center of the 6 and mentally mark that spot. Then, I go from where I want to hit the rail to the center of the 6 and mentally mark that spot. I now have two mental marks on the 6. I cut the distance between them in half, and that is where I would want to hit the 6 with 6:00 clock draw. Now, I just look at that spot, and see where the 6 will go.

I can see that the 6 will hit just barely inside the point of the pocket. I want to hit more to the center of the pocket, so I have to make an adjustment. Adding just a touch of left will widen the angle off the rail, and put me right into the 8.

Now, we don't have a lot of room from the 6 to the rail, and we want to change the angle from the tangent line. That means that we don't hit the shot hard. We just want to go into the 8 and move it a ball or two off the rail, not send it flying to who knows where. Using a softer stroke, we can get the draw to take, and change the angle from the tangent line. KNOWING where we are going to go with the cb, NOT guessing.

Writing it down, it takes quite awhile. Once you practice checking out the things you know, you will find that the mental calculations will pay off big time for position play. This whole process took less than 30 sec. for me to decide on which route, and how to aim it, and to shoot it. My first attempt had me gently rolling into the 8 and replacing it. Bump the 7 into the corner, shoot the 8 into the opposite corner up table, good position on the 9.

My 2nd attempt I hit the 8 on the inside table side, 8 came off the rail about 3 balls distance, the cb went up table a little bit, great angle on the 7, easy to get on the 8. All using what I KNOW. Knowledge is worthless if you don't put it into practice at the table. Use what you do know, and expand on it. Learn to put 2+2 together to make a 4. Don't be stuck on just having a "2".

Here, I used my knowledge of tangent lines, kick shots, and draw shot positioning and speed to achieve what I needed to do. Making a potentially tricky situation easy.
Great post, Neil.

This is how I would approach this shot too. After you've done similar things many times, it takes much less than 30 seconds to go through this analysis, and it can be done without even moving around the table (although that helps).

pj
chgo

P.S. I think it's best, but not essential, to hit the 8. With the right (slow) speed I think you'll get a good shot if you (a) hit the 8 almost any way, (b) hit the 7 thin or (c) hit between them.

Neil
09-24-2010, 09:16 AM
.............

h2o4170
09-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Run out. (how) with exreme skill and confidence!
sorry Neil I couldnr resist