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9BallPaul
09-26-2010, 05:59 AM
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.

Gerry
09-26-2010, 06:11 AM
rail demention and pocket depth/cut make the Diamonds play different.....not better IMO but different.

Bambu
09-26-2010, 06:36 AM
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.

I just had that done to my GC II, and the table plays great. I wish I could say why its different, but I don't have much exp. on a diamond to compare. I can tell you this though, make sure you get somebody real good to do the job. They screwed mine up twice before getting it right.

BRKNRUN
09-26-2010, 06:57 AM
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.



If the GC is set up correct...They play better than a Diamond IMO.

They may end up with the same cloth and same rubber, but there are other "angles" that cause the Diamond to bank short and be "overly" bouncy vs the GC that plays more true.

Either table can be made to play correct. If you have the right mechanic do the job. The only static differences would be the Diamond having flat rails and the GC having domed rails...The GC having metal corner castings and the Diamond having nothing there.....etc....If you like the cosmetics of one vs the other, that could sway your opinion of how the table plays (I guess)

I can't think of anyone that would know more than RKC on how they both play and can be changed via set up.

I would suggest either checking the ask the mechanics section and/or conatacting him.

KoolKat9Lives
09-26-2010, 07:40 AM
I guess you can put "diamond spec'd rails" on any table, but copying their pocket shelves may be an issue. How do you extend a pocket shelf (so you can get more balls to hang? ;)) Maybe RKC can fuse an extension onto them, but that seems a but nutz...

Dartman
09-26-2010, 07:44 AM
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.

What you should understand (beyond cosmetics) is that you want your table to play correctly which is more a function of the proper geometry and dimensions of the pocket angles and cushions and not so much the brand of cloth or cushion. Diamond did a good job in making tables that play right yet they still look at ways to be better. With the right table mechanic and a top notch setup you may end up with a table that plays better then a Diamond.

poolhustler
09-26-2010, 12:43 PM
If Diamnond Tables play so good, why were they recently revamped to play differently (aka - Better)??

jalapus logan
09-26-2010, 01:30 PM
If Diamnond Tables play so good, why were they recently revamped to play differently (aka - Better)??

It's an ethic called Kaizen. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

Diamond is one of the few that actually still tries to improve their product, not just outsource it overseas in order to make them cheaper. And they listen to the players too.

Also, just food for thought, but I read all the time here of Gold Crown owners paying a capable mechanic to "Diamondize" their table to make it play like the pro table. Never once on this site or anywhere else for that matter have I read or heard of a Diamond owner having a mechanic work on their Diamond pro table to make it play like a Gold Crown. I know I wouldn't!

RFisher
09-26-2010, 02:16 PM
It's an ethic called Kaizen. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

Diamond is one of the few that actually still tries to improve their product, not just outsource it overseas in order to make them cheaper. And they listen to the players too.

Also, just food for thought, but I read all the time here of Gold Crown owners paying a capable mechanic to "Diamondize" their table to make it play like the pro table. Never once on this site or anywhere else for that matter have I read or heard of a Diamond owner having a mechanic work on their Diamond pro table to make it play like a Gold Crown. I know I wouldn't!


TAP TAP TAP great post.

I have moved my cue shop out of my 3 car oversized garage, I now have it back and am going to have a small work area (tools for home and lawn mower ext...) I will also make it my man-den. I own 4 bar boxes, I'm keeping 1 valley and selling the rest, I am also planning on buying a 9ft diamond pro-am with 4 3/8in pockets or 4.5 either way I'll be happy. I have an opportunity to purchase 9ft amf tables for $800 each or a GC3 for $1500, after new cloth, balls, rail rubber(diamond specs), I would spend far less than a Diamond. But like many others I have delusions of grandeur. I want a diamond because I plan on competing at the derby in the 1-pocket division. I haven't played in about 3 years, except 2-4 tournaments because of charity or friends asked me to. Any way I played 1-pocket against a shortstop/top amature who is a good 1-pocket player and beat alot of top talent. Any way we played on a diamond and I fileted him. So that adds to my ego alittle:rolleyes:. But that is what the top players play on in a huge % of the tournaments. That's why I have a valley barbox instead of a diamond, 95% of all tournaments I'll play in either here in the Midwest or in vegas are going to be on a valley table. Not to mention In my opinion, DIAMOND pro-ams are beautiful. I want a black/charcol/graphite or what ever they call the black pro-ams. I hate furniture grade pool tables, small rails no were to put your hand.

anyway, diamonds are the top shelf, resist them as you may there here to stay. I also like gabriel tables, and Kim steel.

DogsPlayingPool
09-26-2010, 02:19 PM
If the GC is set up correct...They play better than a Diamond IMO.

They may end up with the same cloth and same rubber, but there are other "angles" that cause the Diamond to bank short and be "overly" bouncy vs the GC that plays more true.

Either table can be made to play correct. If you have the right mechanic do the job. The only static differences would be the Diamond having flat rails and the GC having domed rails...The GC having metal corner castings and the Diamond having nothing there.....etc....If you like the cosmetics of one vs the other, that could sway your opinion of how the table plays (I guess)

I can't think of anyone that would know more than RKC on how they both play and can be changed via set up.

I would suggest either checking the ask the mechanics section and/or conatacting him.

One other major thing is the deep shelf on the Diamond, for better or worse. :D

Diamonds are great tables but I prefer the GC.

iusedtoberich
09-26-2010, 02:38 PM
I might be wrong, but I don't think the OP's question was asking about making a GC like a Diamond. He said "standard 3 piece slate table".

Using those words, he might be talking about the home market tables that sell for 1500 new from the no-name brands. If thats the case, then you are starting with an inferior frame and design. Switching the rail rubber and cloth won't prevent the balls from moving when you bump the table, for example.

I don't own a table, but if I ever was given a diamond for free, I'd trade it for a GC in a heartbeat, or pay someone to put GC rubber/rail angle/etc, so that the balls bounce off the rails properly like they do on a GC and every other high quality commercial table but Diamond.

BRKNRUN
09-26-2010, 04:19 PM
Also, just food for thought, but I read all the time here of Gold Crown owners paying a capable mechanic to "Diamondize" their table to make it play like the pro table. Never once on this site or anywhere else for that matter have I read or heard of a Diamond owner having a mechanic work on their Diamond pro table to make it play like a Gold Crown. I know I wouldn't!


That is not always the case.....If the GC is set up correct it plays better than a Diamond (IMO) there are some subtle differences in the set up process..(slightly different sub-angles)

The problem is....there are only a handful of mechanics that know exactly what to do to and/or have the ability to make the "correct" changes.

It does not end with just changing the rubber and cloth...There are some farily precision sub changes that need to be made.

The end result though is NOT a GC that plays like a Diamond....Rather it is a VERY top shelf playing GC that plays better than a Diamond.

jalapus logan
09-26-2010, 05:42 PM
I might be wrong, but I don't think the OP's question was asking about making a GC like a Diamond. He said "standard 3 piece slate table".

Using those words, he might be talking about the home market tables that sell for 1500 new from the no-name brands. If thats the case, then you are starting with an inferior frame and design. Switching the rail rubber and cloth won't prevent the balls from moving when you bump the table, for example.

I don't own a table, but if I ever was given a diamond for free, I'd trade it for a GC in a heartbeat, or pay someone to put GC rubber/rail angle/etc, so that the balls bounce off the rails properly like they do on a GC and every other high quality commercial table but Diamond.

If you ever get that Diamond table given to you, let me know. I'll BUY a Gold Crown for the trade...

jalapus logan
09-26-2010, 05:51 PM
That is not always the case.....If the GC is set up correct it plays better than a Diamond (IMO) there are some subtle differences in the set up process..(slightly different sub-angles)

The problem is....there are only a handful of mechanics that know exactly what to do to and/or have the ability to make the "correct" changes.

It does not end with just changing the rubber and cloth...There are some farily precision sub changes that need to be made.

The end result though is NOT a GC that plays like a Diamond....Rather it is a VERY top shelf playing GC that plays better than a Diamond.

I think that the bottom line here is to pick a table that has six pockets. Everything else is secondary. Perhaps the Gold Crown vs. Diamond debate is like the Ford vs. Chevy debate of yester year (BTW, I wouldn't drive either one, for what it's worth!). The discussion is probably not dissimilar to the Rorschach inkblot test, people just see what they want to see (or perhaps it's people SEE whatever they are USED to seeing).

Having said that, I worked and saved for 5 years to buy my table. I am a man that does my due dilligence and considers every conceivable angle before making a purchase. After playing on both and researching both, for my hard earned dollars, there was no choice. Diamond pro it was. When I wear this table out two lifetimes from now, I might actually have to buy another one.

Cheers and happy shooting on whatever you pick...

9BallPaul
09-26-2010, 06:16 PM
I think that the bottom line here is to pick a table that has six pockets. Everything else is secondary. Perhaps the Gold Crown vs. Diamond debate is like the Ford vs. Chevy debate of yester year (BTW, I wouldn't drive either one, for what it's worth!). The discussion is probably not dissimilar to the Rorschach inkblot test, people just see what they want to see (or perhaps it's people SEE whatever they are USED to seeing).

Having said that, I worked and saved for 5 years to buy my table. I am a man that does my due dilligence and considers every conceivable angle before making a purchase. After playing on both and researching both, for my hard earned dollars, there was no choice. Diamond pro it was. When I wear this table out two lifetimes from now, I might actually have to buy another one.

Cheers and happy shooting on whatever you pick...

Lots of ihtelligent responses to my opening post. This one put the biggest smile on my face.

poolhustler
09-26-2010, 07:25 PM
It's an ethic called Kaizen. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

Diamond is one of the few that actually still tries to improve their product, not just outsource it overseas in order to make them cheaper. And they listen to the players too.

Also, just food for thought, but I read all the time here of Gold Crown owners paying a capable mechanic to "Diamondize" their table to make it play like the pro table. Never once on this site or anywhere else for that matter have I read or heard of a Diamond owner having a mechanic work on their Diamond pro table to make it play like a Gold Crown. I know I wouldn't!



Thats all good and fine, as its your opinion. I was told by a guy who would know, that the changes were to fix flaws. Don't get me wrong, I love the Diamond tables and Greg is a great guy. I just happen to be a Chevy and Gold Crown guy. Although I do drive a Shelby Mustang!! lolzz

Black-Balled
09-27-2010, 06:49 AM
The structural differences between GCs/ Diamonds and howm-style tables are a big part of what make the play more 'solid'ly.

Good cloth and (to a smaller extent, IMO) rubber will surely improve the quality of play on a home table, but it cannot be something it isn't.

realkingcobra
09-27-2010, 08:47 AM
If Diamnond Tables play so good, why were they recently revamped to play differently (aka - Better)??

For the same reason I revamp Gold Crowns...to make them play better:grin:

realkingcobra
09-27-2010, 08:52 AM
I might be wrong, but I don't think the OP's question was asking about making a GC like a Diamond. He said "standard 3 piece slate table".

Using those words, he might be talking about the home market tables that sell for 1500 new from the no-name brands. If thats the case, then you are starting with an inferior frame and design. Switching the rail rubber and cloth won't prevent the balls from moving when you bump the table, for example.

I don't own a table, but if I ever was given a diamond for free, I'd trade it for a GC in a heartbeat, or pay someone to put GC rubber/rail angle/etc, so that the balls bounce off the rails properly like they do on a GC and every other high quality commercial table but Diamond.

ummmmm...you might want to reconsider that thought about the Diamonds banking short and playing springy off the cushions, until after the US Open.

realkingcobra
09-27-2010, 08:55 AM
That is not always the case.....If the GC is set up correct it plays better than a Diamond (IMO) there are some subtle differences in the set up process..(slightly different sub-angles)

The problem is....there are only a handful of mechanics that know exactly what to do to and/or have the ability to make the "correct" changes.

It does not end with just changing the rubber and cloth...There are some farily precision sub changes that need to be made.

The end result though is NOT a GC that plays like a Diamond....Rather it is a VERY top shelf playing GC that plays better than a Diamond.

I can't rebuild a GC to make it play better than a Diamond anymore, at this point...all I can do is tie the Diamond;)

ITguy
09-27-2010, 09:14 AM
Cool. :grin-square: :grin-square: :grin-square: :grin-square: :grin-square:

9BallPaul
09-27-2010, 01:56 PM
I can't rebuild a GC to make it play better than a Diamond anymore, at this point...all I can do is tie the Diamond;)

Nice to see RKC responded to my thread. The reason I created the thread is because I rebuilt my home table, a Presidential 8-footer, with Simonis 760 and Artemis. I'm not so naive as to think I've created a 5K table with a 600-buck improvement to a table that cost half what a Diamond does, but I'm curious as to the differences.

I knew I could count on this forum for some serious answers. So thanks, all.

realkingcobra
09-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Nice to see RKC responded to my thread. The reason I created the thread is because I rebuilt my home table, a Presidential 8-footer, with Simonis 760 and Artemis. I'm not so naive as to think I've created a 5K table with a 600-buck improvement to a table that cost half what a Diamond does, but I'm curious as to the differences.

I knew I could count on this forum for some serious answers. So thanks, all.

When I get done working on the tables I'm fixing, I'll respond to this a little more in detail;)

Dartman
09-27-2010, 03:44 PM
Nice to see RKC responded to my thread. The reason I created the thread is because I rebuilt my home table, a Presidential 8-footer, with Simonis 760 and Artemis. I'm not so naive as to think I've created a 5K table with a 600-buck improvement to a table that cost half what a Diamond does, but I'm curious as to the differences.

I knew I could count on this forum for some serious answers. So thanks, all.

As I mentioned earlier - the goal is to make your table play correctly which is something Diamond has come close to achieving. As for differences - Diamond doesn't put Artemis on their 8' tables nor do they use 760 (as a standard) so out of the gate your table will play differently. Glen may comment on the metrics, angles and subrail bevel as these are the dimensions needed to make the table play its best with those top quality parts you picked up.

BRKNRUN
09-27-2010, 05:09 PM
I can't rebuild a GC to make it play better than a Diamond anymore, at this point...all I can do is tie the Diamond;)

I will settle for a tie...:wink:

Cuebuddy
09-27-2010, 05:44 PM
Lots of ihtelligent responses to my opening post. This one put the biggest smile on my face.

Paul I may have missed it in a earlier post but have you played on a 9ft Diamond pro yet? I have been reading your threads for sometime now and I know you have played on everything else but I am curious. If not... I am not to far away from Golden and you are welcome to check out mine. Let me know I would be glad to help you out. Mine banks correctly and as far as balls picking up speed after they leave the rails....I hit a shot before typing this and the damn ball is still ricocheting around the table:eek::rolleyes:

cheapcues.com
09-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Nice to see RKC responded to my thread. The reason I created the thread is because I rebuilt my home table, a Presidential 8-footer, with Simonis 760 and Artemis. I'm not so naive as to think I've created a 5K table with a 600-buck improvement to a table that cost half what a Diamond does, but I'm curious as to the differences.

I knew I could count on this forum for some serious answers. So thanks, all.

Interesting choice to put 760 on an 8 foot table- you're going to develop quite a soft touch! I think that if you play on your table for a long time, and then go play on a GC and a Diamond you will be pleased with how your table compares.

-Mike

Zbotiman
09-28-2010, 08:52 AM
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.
In basic bits and pieces, the answer to your question is, the weight of the rails, no. of rail-anchors per rail, and the finish on the slates.

Although, there is an overlooked table that can be made to play "exactly like a Diamond." It's a "National Top Line," from the sixties. The sub-rails have to be extended, re- undercut, and cut to the proper pocket opening sizes. You also have to beef up the frame with modern structural beam material. You then you can change the rail-anchor number to 4 instead of three (more good news, these tables have the 4-screw round anchors, stock, so you only need 6 more anchors for this conversion) and the good news here is if you like the rails to play like a Diamond these come at 1 29/64" standard from the factory. Usually the slates are Italian from the 60's, so they're superior to a lot of slate today, although you do have to increase shelf size. And if the table has been in a home environment with moderate care the rails on these tables stay in good condition. There is one difference here in the rails, though, the sub-rail material is poplar (like the GC) and not Oak(like the Diamond) so there is a slight difference in over-all rail weight.

Like most everything else, the tables from the mid-sixties are the best. Usually, these tables can be bought "cheap" and once you've made the changes you and I have mentioned here, to the slates, rails, rubber, and pocket dimensions of the table, it does play with the same feel off the rails and banking characteristics as the Diamonds. The Italian slates that came on these tables have excellent surface speed (they were polished). Bad news is, you'll still have about $1800 initial cost and recon-work, not to mention the delivery, set-up, cloth, and new rubber, so all in, your still gonna have $3000. in the table. And the bad news is, "regular folks (non pro's) won't think it's playing as well as a Diamond just because of the name plate!"
I've done 5 of these over the years and the playability will fool even a great player in a blind test (no name plate or table identification)! One of these tables was right next to a PBT table and most players in that room liked the National, better. Now it's hard to believe that's a possibility, but certain tables can be made to play better than the pre-98 Diamonds! All in though, if you ever want to sell the Table, no matter what era the Diamond is, their re-sale value is excellent, like a Harley. However, if you really just want a table that can be made to play "GREAT," this is a little known, but really good way to go!

realkingcobra
09-28-2010, 10:45 AM
In basic bits and pieces, the answer to your question is, the weight of the rails, no. of rail-anchors per rail, and the finish on the slates.

Although, there is an overlooked table that can be made to play "exactly like a Diamond." It's a "National Top Line," from the sixties. The sub-rails have to be extended, re- undercut, and cut to the proper pocket opening sizes. You also have to beef up the frame with modern structural beam material. You then you can change the rail-anchor number to 4 instead of three (more good news, these tables have the 4-screw round anchors, stock, so you only need 6 more anchors for this conversion) and the good news here is if you like the rails to play like a Diamond these come at 1 29/64" standard from the factory. Usually the slates are Italian from the 60's, so they're superior to a lot of slate today, although you do have to increase shelf size. And if the table has been in a home environment with moderate care the rails on these tables stay in good condition. There is one difference here in the rails, though, the sub-rail material is poplar (like the GC) and not Oak(like the Diamond) so there is a slight difference in over-all rail weight.

Like most everything else, the tables from the mid-sixties are the best. Usually, these tables can be bought "cheap" and once you've made the changes you and I have mentioned here, to the slates, rails, rubber, and pocket dimensions of the table, it does play with the same feel off the rails and banking characteristics as the Diamonds. The Italian slates that came on these tables have excellent surface speed (they were polished). Bad news is, you'll still have about $1800 initial cost and recon-work, not to mention the delivery, set-up, cloth, and new rubber, so all in, your still gonna have $3000. in the table. And the bad news is, "regular folks (non pro's) won't think it's playing as well as a Diamond just because of the name plate!"
I've done 5 of these over the years and the playability will fool even a great player in a blind test (no name plate or table identification)! One of these tables was right next to a PBT table and most players in that room liked the National, better. Now it's hard to believe that's a possibility, but certain tables can be made to play better than the pre-98 Diamonds! All in though, if you ever want to sell the Table, no matter what era the Diamond is, their re-sale value is excellent, like a Harley. However, if you really just want a table that can be made to play "GREAT," this is a little known, but really good way to go!

Just about any quality table can be turned into a great playing table depending on who's doing the work, but tables made better in the 60's vs tables built today?...Not a chance, the Diamond ProAm is the best built table to ever hit the market, far better than any tables built in the 60's or any other years. Reason being, 50 years from now, when all other tables show their age...the Diamond ProAm will still be able to be sold as in almost new condition....and still command top dollar:grin: as far as Diamonds playability off the rails being in question...hmmmm...;)