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MasterClass
09-28-2010, 01:24 AM
If the sardo rack are no longer use in tournaments because the rack too well making the break predictable and boring.

Then why i the magic invisible paper rack thingy allowed and being used?

They look kinda cheap compared to the sardo. I always thought that the sardo rack being use in tournament looked cool.

The paper rack gets crumple easily and sometime interferes with the balls!

Why not just use the sardo and rack the 9 at the spot?

In Indonesia some players actually stick a piece of cut up poker card and stick it up in front of the one ball to tighten the rack. Not as nice as the paper rack but works just as well! why do people actually pay for that?

Johnnyt
09-28-2010, 02:01 AM
If the sardo rack are no longer use in tournaments because the rack too well making the break predictable and boring.

Then why i the magic invisible paper rack thingy allowed and being used?

They look kinda cheap compared to the sardo. I always thought that the sardo rack being use in tournament looked cool.

The paper rack gets crumple easily and sometime interferes with the balls!

Why not just use the sardo and rack the 9 at the spot?

In Indonesia some players actually stick a piece of cut up poker card and stick it up in front of the one ball to tighten the rack. Not as nice as the paper rack but works just as well! why do people actually pay for that?
Magic rack is not paper and the Sardo is a pain in the ass. If you have back problems the last thing you want is a Sardo. Johnnyt

nathandumoulin
09-28-2010, 03:57 AM
They look kinda cheap compared to the sardo. I always thought that the sardo rack being use in tournament looked cool.

The paper rack gets crumple easily and sometime interferes with the balls!

Why not just use the sardo and rack the 9 at the spot?

The Sardo is essentially tapping the table over and over again. After a few uses, it's not racking the balls, but rather just moving them into the craters it's previously made. This then affects the roll of the balls during play.

Plus, it's big, bulky, ugly, and expensive.

The Magic Ball Rack solves all this. Clearly you don't know much about it, but I guarantee if you try it, the product will give you a pleasant surprise for its whopping $12 price tag.

Saturated Fats
09-28-2010, 07:21 AM
Having used both, I'll add that a Sardo rack requires considerable setup and doesn't work well on older cloth. The Magic Rack can be used easily on any table - even if the balls have been banged into the cloth many times - and after breaking, you remove it leaving nothing behind. The Sardo, on the other hand leaves the dimples you pounded in the cloth during setup.

TheBook
09-28-2010, 07:36 AM
Delta and Magic Rack both have made the Sardo a white elephant. The Sardo is too bulky, and a pain to use. It is overpriced, more difficult to use and from what I have seen fragile. If balls are undersize it will give a loose rack.

The Delta does help identify undersize balls and is more durable.

Bob Jewett
09-28-2010, 07:56 AM
... into the craters it's previously made. This then affects the roll of the balls during play. ...
This is not a fair criticism of either the Sardo Rack or tapping the table. If a ball is going fast enough to get to the pocket, it will not be significantly affected by the craters/dimples in the cloth those racking methods create.

The craters can change where the ball settles to at the end of its roll, but this is rare and only makes a couple of mm's difference. Few players have that precision. You see the same thing on worn cloth with a normal rack and "normal" craters.

nathandumoulin
09-28-2010, 08:03 AM
This is not a fair criticism of either the Sardo Rack or tapping the table.

My words are actually chosen based on the opinion of a few tops pros whom I've discussed this subject with recently. So fair criticism or not, it's about as valid as it gets.

Bob Jewett
09-28-2010, 08:32 AM
My words are actually chosen based on the opinion of a few tops pros whom I've discussed this subject with recently. So fair criticism or not, it's about as valid as it gets.
I think you're not making sense. Top pros have been known to be horribly wrong before. Can you, yourself, demonstrate a shot in which the craters make a difference?

nathandumoulin
09-28-2010, 08:59 AM
I think you're not making sense. Top pros have been known to be horribly wrong before. Can you, yourself, demonstrate a shot in which the craters make a difference?

Clearly I'm not making sense. As such, we better just completely disregard the opinions of the worlds leading experts on the subject. lol

As for whether or not I can demonstrate the effect myself....definitely. It's most obvious when playing position, when you have to roll up near another ball in the racking area. As the cue ball comes to rest, it suddenly falls into a divot, pushing up frozen against the other ball that's in an adjacent divot. Once you find yourself snookered a few times as a result of the divot left by the rack, you'll quit dismissing the opinions of those who play under such conditions for a living.

Pro's can be wrong, but normally when it comes to stuff like this, their experience far out weighs the validity of our own opinions.

Bob Jewett
09-28-2010, 10:15 AM
... It's most obvious when playing position, when you have to roll up near another ball in the racking area. As the cue ball comes to rest, it suddenly falls into a divot, pushing up frozen against the other ball that's in an adjacent divot. ...
Yes, as I pointed out in my original post, settling while stopping can happen. It also occurs in the rack area on worn cloth or on the spot on fairly new cloth. I think it's quite rare, especially at nine ball. Of course it will be more important to those people who have 5-mm control over their cue balls, since that's about how much movement you might get.

cheapcues.com
09-28-2010, 11:36 AM
If the sardo rack are no longer use in tournaments because the rack too well making the break predictable and boring.




I don't think that's why they don't use Sardo's anymore, I think it's because Sardo doesn't sponsor the tournaments any more.

pwd72s
09-28-2010, 11:40 AM
i don't think that's why they don't use sardo's anymore, i think it's because sardo doesn't sponsor the tournaments any more.

bingo!!!!!!

MasterClass
09-28-2010, 08:23 PM
Magic rack is not paper and the Sardo is a pain in the ass. If you have back problems the last thing you want is a Sardo. Johnnyt

I thought the opposite! I had back problems. Sardo actually saved my back. I am using the M 5000 those are very light. So instead of tipping forward trying to rack balls that would put alot of strain in my back I use the sardo.

I know after sometimes especially when the balls get dirty they will no long stick to each other. But at least they do not roll out of place completely when the regular rack is removed.

MasterClass
09-28-2010, 08:26 PM
The Sardo is essentially tapping the table over and over again. After a few uses, it's not racking the balls, but rather just moving them into the craters it's previously made. This then affects the roll of the balls during play.

Plus, it's big, bulky, ugly, and expensive.

The Magic Ball Rack solves all this. Clearly you don't know much about it, but I guarantee if you try it, the product will give you a pleasant surprise for its whopping $12 price tag.

That is interesting. Never really thought about the crater thing.

But i find that after the break and having to remove the magic rack right after making sure not to disturb any other balls in the process is rather disruptive. I would rather use the Indonesian way.

MasterClass
09-28-2010, 08:27 PM
I don't think that's why they don't use Sardo's anymore, I think it's because Sardo doesn't sponsor the tournaments any more.

I guess these days its all about the money.

Maybe i am someone who likes gimmicks! hence i find the sardo appealing.

MasterClass
09-28-2010, 08:30 PM
I think you're not making sense. Top pros have been known to be horribly wrong before. Can you, yourself, demonstrate a shot in which the craters make a difference?

I think i agree with bob on this.

When the taiwanese came here for tourney, I saw the guy rack up the 9 balls on a brand new table and brand new cloth. He took another ball and started banging on all 9 balls! bang bang bang bang......... After that all the balls will always sit together nicely!

I suppose if it creates a very obvious crater then balls rolling towards that whole area is going to roll funny!

jcrack_corn
09-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Clearly I'm not making sense. As such, we better just completely disregard the opinions of the worlds leading experts on the subject. lol

As for whether or not I can demonstrate the effect myself....definitely. It's most obvious when playing position, when you have to roll up near another ball in the racking area. As the cue ball comes to rest, it suddenly falls into a divot, pushing up frozen against the other ball that's in an adjacent divot. Once you find yourself snookered a few times as a result of the divot left by the rack, you'll quit dismissing the opinions of those who play under such conditions for a living.

Pro's can be wrong, but normally when it comes to stuff like this, their experience far out weighs the validity of our own opinions.
since bob jewett IS one of the worlds leading authors on the behaviors of billiard balls on the table, and has been published many times, often with cumbersome mathematical details, and is known for such publications by all who seriously study the game, would you mind telling us some of your qualifications.

Specifically, have you done any controlled experiments to assess the real world implications of cloth divots?

Can you list some of the worlds leading experts on the subject that you have referenced?

I am not being facetious, I really want to know if you can disprove what he is saying as i am interested in all 3 racking options (sardo, magic, delta):

for reference, here are some of his billiard digest articles:

1992-04 Be Part of an Experiment -- cutting a ball frozen on the rail

1992-06 An Experiment in Curve -- making an object ball curve

1992-10 The Truth at Last -- results from the frozen ball experiment

1992-12 Progressive Practice -- explanations and two drills

1993-04 Close Calls -- judging hits when two object balls are close

1993-06 Close Quarters -- a system for aiming when the object ball is close

1993-08 Close Quarters II -- avoiding double hits on a near object ball

1993-10 Close Quarters III -- the rules governing close shots

1993-12 Test Time -- Questions from the BCA instructor course

1994-04 How Tough is Tough? -- calculating the difficulty of shots

1994-06 Test Time -- The Answers -- answers to the BCA quiz

1994-08 Squirt Testing -- using a tough spin shot to test squirt

1994-10 Bytes & Billiards -- billiards on the internet in 1994

1994-12 Bytes and Billiards II -- several billiard simulators described

1995-02 Pythagoras & Pool Perpendiculars -- the 90-degree rule

1995-04 Friction: Friend and Foe -- three types of table friction

1995-06 Seeking Truth of Beliefs -- several myth-destroying results

1995-08 Virtual Pool -- a review of the pool/billiard simulator

1995-10 Follow and Draw Systems -- judging the carom angle with follow and draw

1995-12 A Basic Skill Test -- measure your ability with progressive drills

1996-02 Two Interference Systems -- the 2-times- and 10-time-fuller systems

1996-04 Bad Equipment -- problems you can have with tables, balls, ...

1996-06 Chances Are -- probabilities and billiards

1996-08 Create Your Own Drills -- developing custom progressive drills

1996-10 Mirror Systems -- banking using the equal angle idea

1996-12 Handicaps -- the basic NPL system of handicapping matches

1997-02 Hidden Hanger -- shots that are much easier than they seem

1997-04 Finding the Pocket -- the effective center of the pocket

1997-06 Collective Wisdom -- excerpts from the RSB FAQ

1997-08 Those Who Can, Teach -- several teaching techniques/demos

1997-10 A Safety Dance -- playing safe on a close ball ... what's legal?

1997-12 Welcome to Masse 101 -- basic masse concepts

1998-02 Masse 102 -- masse techniques and practice

1998-03 The Right Time to Masse -- sometimes it's the right shot

1998-04 Side Spin with a Kick -- progressive practice for simple english shots

1998-05 Putting Proper Spin On It -- side spin theory and practice

1998-06 Spin It In -- does get-in english really exist?

1998-07 Complete Breakdown -- computer simulation of stick physics

1998-08 1,001 Banks -- lots of bank practice shots

1998-09 Battle of the Robots -- the Meucci and Predator cue-testing robots

1998-10 Peeling the Onion -- options during run-outs

1998-11 Hitting the Peaks -- when during the stroke to hit the cue ball

1998-12 Cut to the Chase -- follow angle system 1:4 ratio

1999-01 Making Contact -- driving a ball to a cushion

1999-02 More Spin, Less Speed -- quality of the stroke

1999-03 Progressive Progress -- more practice drills

1999-04 Freeze Frame -- Jacksonville project report

1999-05 Judgement Call -- to call or not to call fouls

1999-06 Don't Grip It and Rip It -- Jacksonville cue impact study

1999-07 To Kiss Or Not To Kiss -- finding which bank shots kiss out

1999-08 Judgement Day -- Results for the May 1999 column

1999-09 The New Frontiers -- increasing your comfort zone

1999-10 Communication Barriers -- pool vocabulary

1999-11 Systems of Aiming -- a smorgasbord of systems

1999-12 Hidden Treasures -- three diamond systems

2000-01 Tricky Business -- learning from trick shots

2000-02 Sources of Evil -- variables on the pool table

2000-03 Add It Up -- summing up sources of error

2000-04 A Rub the Right Way -- details of throw

2000-05 Practice Session 2000 -- the game of Fargo

2000-06 Systems Analysis -- details of three aiming systems

2000-07 A Rusty Game? -- straight pool discussion

2000-08 Into Focus -- Pre-shot routine and concentration

2000-09 Wales, Watching -- A report on the 2000 WPC in Wales

2000-10 Jump Shots -- useful jump shots

2000-11 Half-Ball, Revisited -- half-ball summary

2000-12 Bank Losses, Rolling Ratios -- follow and bank distance ratios

2001-01 Combinations and Throw -- how throw affects close combos

2001-02 Newton on the Ball -- George McBane guest column on 90-degree imperfections

2001-03 Weird Techniques -- strange ways to hit balls

2001-04 Three Draw Drills -- three challenging drills

2001-05 Charting the Course -- how to find follow distances geometrically

2001-06 Drawing Draw -- continued for draw and angle shots

2001-07 The Rack -- It's more than a torture device

2001-08 When Spheres Collide -- ball-ball contact and Hertz' Law

2001-09 Sliding Friction -- ball-to-bed-cloth friction measured

2001-10 Playing Games -- trying games strange to you

2001-11 Round Robin Formats -- basic round-robin charts

2001-12 Elimination Formats -- single elim, byes, seeding

2002-01 Double-Elimination Formats -- two double-elimination formats

2002-02 8-Ball Rules -- a brief history of the rules of 8-ball

2002-03 Who Wants a Spot -- calculating the odds with unequal players and spots

2002-04 Outside Assistance -- using outside english to help the angle

2002-05 9-Ball Progress -- progressive drills for nine ball

2002-06 A Challenge to Improve -- some tough proposition shots

2002-07 99 Critical Points -- problems in Ray Martin's classic book

2002-08 Squirt -- a Review -- history of squirt in billiard literature

2002-09 Squirt -- Where it Comes From -- the physical cause of squirt

2002-10 Squirt Continued -- dealing with squirt

2002-11 Chalk Marks, Cue Marks -- chalking -- a simple but important task

2002-12 An Experiment in Throw -- a test to see if throw exists

2003-01 One Thing at a Time -- implementing Bob Fancher's idea for practice

2003-02 Physics and Pool? -- is physics useful for playing billiards

2003-03 Experimental Results -- readers' new ideas about throw

2003-04 The Results Are In -- numerical results for the throw experiment

2003-05 Progressive Masse -- some drills to improve your masse

2003-06 Handicapping 14.1 -- instructions for setting up a league

2003-07 Odds and Ends -- making a ball curve, frozen rail shots, a throw demo, banks

2003-08 Bumping Balls -- moving balls precisely

2003-09 Jumping As It Should Be -- practicing jump shots

2003-10 Sharks and Scams -- petty thievery for fun and profit

2003-11 Practicing Inside Spin -- progressive drills for inside

2003-12 Practicing Outside Spin -- more progressive drills

2004-01 Thin Hits -- safeties and cut shots

2004-02 Where's Your Elbow -- Do you want to be a piston or a pendulum?

2004-03 Where's Your Elbow Now -- observations, including at the Mosconi Cup

2004-04 Not So Simple -- keeping the run simple

2004-05 Short Kicks -- using the mirror system for balls by the rail

2004-06 More Aiming Systems -- ferrule system, lights system, overlap system

2004-07 Long Kicks -- mirror system training

2004-08 Shortening Banks -- actual measurements about speed vs. angle

2004-09 Short Banks -- the 70% system for cross-side and cross-corner

2004-10 Useful Strokes -- From Wallace Ritchie to Bob Byrne

2004-11 Stroke Straightening -- making your arm move straight

2004-12 Help With Aiming -- aiming devices, including do-it-yourself

2005-01 Make Your Own -- more aiming/carom angle devices

2005-02 Frozen Bank Shots -- banking balls frozen on the cushion

2005-03 Hoppe to It -- making your own simple position system -- no english

2005-04 Do Try This At Home -- now, add side spin

2005-05 Faszinating -- amazing stop-action pictures from Austria

2005-06 By the Books -- parallel aiming through the years

2005-07 Target Pool, Revived -- Do-it-yourself practice routines

2005-08 Close Quarters -- repeat of the August 1993 column

2005-09 Taking A Lesson -- various aspects of taking and giving lessons

2005-10 Different Strokes -- a catalog of strokes

2005-11 Different Strokes, Part 2 -- more catalog of strokes

2005-12 Wrong Size, Wrong Shape -- the balls are not quite right

2006-01 A Modest Proposal -- Double hit rule discussion

2006-02 Better Safe Than Sorry -- Shot selection at the IPT KOH

2006-03 A Carom Puzzle -- How many ways to play one position?

2006-04 Straight-Pool Wrinkles -- Issues at the DCC 2006 14.1

2006-05 Wheres The Rub? -- Throw with draw and follow

2006-06 Straight Statistics -- High run statistics at 14.1

2006-07 Carom Conundrum -- Solutions for the carom puzzle of March

2006-08 The Perfect Tournament -- Details of tournament organization

2006-09 One Cushion Precision -- Playing for exact position on one cushion

2006-10 The Cutting Edge -- The thinnest possible/likely cuts

2006-11 Round-Robin Revisited -- Round robin wrinkles from the IPT

2006-12 Don't Blow It -- Where's the nose of the cushion?

2007-01 Get to the Point -- Precise position practice

2007-02 Online Magic -- YouTube videos from Semih Sayginer

2007-03 Derby City Shootout -- The 2007 edition of DCC 14.1

2007-04 Transferred Side -- History of the controversy

2007-05 Lets Twist Again -- Shots with transferred side

2007-06 Degrees of Difficulty -- Cutting and banking more than 90 degrees

2007-07 Divide and Conquer -- Fractional ball aiming

2007-08 Many Questions -- Some close combination puzzles with answers

2007-09 Killer Geometry -- The semi-circle of death

2007-10 Active Spectating -- What to watch for at tournaments

2007-11 Scratched to Death -- Extensions of the semicircle of death

2007-12 Tricky Ticky Tactics -- Lots of ways to use rail-first shots

2008-01 The Letter of the Law -- The new WPA World Standarized Rules

2008-02 Killing Me Softly? -- The soft break and nine ball

2008-03 Freezing to Death -- How a tight rack destroys nine ball

2008-04 Measured Force -- Ten degrees of force of stroke

GetMeThere
09-28-2010, 09:05 PM
...would you mind telling us some of your qualifications...

Qualifications aren't necessary to assert that it's preferable NOT to have bumps and divots on a table vs. having them.

jcrack_corn
09-28-2010, 09:20 PM
agreed. but we are not talking about preferences or opinions. He said bob jewett is wrong. I (personallY) trust bob jewett. I have no clue who the poster is and if he qualified to dismiss bob jewetts ideas -- who does happen to be "one of the worlds leading experts" on the motions of billiard balls.

and I just want to know, so I can read about it. I have read most of jewetts articles and have learned a great deal. It truly is amazing how almost all pros, and nearly 100 percent of recreational players will describe PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE things they can do with billiard balls.

I also understand mechanical physics and my own knowledge tells me that the static friction of the balls is what holds them together and the impact of the divots is minimal, and only enough to make sure that static friction can do its job. I find it hard to believe that a microns deep compression of wool cloth can affect the inertial moment of a billiard ball. I really do.

Qualifications aren't necessary to assert that it's preferable NOT to have bumps and divots on a table vs. having them.

chevybob20
09-28-2010, 09:21 PM
If you break frequently with that Sardo, you will soon see why I discontinued using it on my table. The first 3 balls will wear through the cloth. Make sure you change that spot frequently.

GetMeThere
09-28-2010, 09:38 PM
agreed. but we are not talking about preferences or opinions. He said bob jewett is wrong. I (personallY) trust bob jewett.

As I read Bob Jewett's first post in this thread, it sounded like a rationalization to me, like: "Yeah, Sardo's make divots, but divots don't really matter."

Well, I wonder if Bob would say that to somebody who started hammering balls into HIS table!

Focusing on details is a common way to avoid the point in someone else's argument. The simple idea is that it's preferable to avoid doing things that disrupt the surface of tables. IMO the "magic rack" is a brilliant solution to that issue.


I also understand mechanical physics and my own knowledge tells me that the static friction of the balls is what holds them together and the impact of the divots is minimal, and only enough to make sure that static friction can do its job. I find it hard to believe that a microns deep compression of wool cloth can affect the inertial moment of a billiard ball. I really do.

Bob Jewett also said in another post: "Yes, as I pointed out in my original post, settling while stopping can happen. It also occurs in the rack area on worn cloth or on the spot on fairly new cloth."

So, he SAYS that such a divot CAN cause balls to freeze together that wouldn't otherwise. What are your qualifications for implying he's wrong?

How can you argue with someone who says it's better NOT to have that potential on a table vs having it--even if it's extremely rare?

Bob Jewett
09-28-2010, 10:12 PM
... Well, I wonder if Bob would say that to somebody who started hammering balls into HIS table! ...
If someone who was qualified to tap the table wanted to do it on one I owned, I wouldn't object. The Eurotour has used tapped tables for a while, and I haven't heard any complaints yet. Well, the main problem seems to be that with a fair rack, people keep making balls on the break. Between a loose rack governing whether I continue after the break and one that needs shallow dimples in the cloth to get a tight rack, I'll take the dimples.

If anyone wants to try the Magic Rack, or something pretty close, for free, here is how you can make your own (http://www.sfbilliards.com/template.pdf). I first tried one in the late 1970s and thought it worked pretty well.

troyroy78
09-28-2010, 10:22 PM
FYI

The Magic Ball Rack has been used in the following tournaments

2009 Amway Cup
2010 Amway Cup

2009 World 10 Ball Championships
2010 World 9 Ball Championships

2009 World Cup of Pool qualifiers in the Nehterlands and Norway

I hope this helps

Mark Griffin CSI POOL is a supporter of the Magic Ball Rack and iam working with him in getting the rack introduced into more US based competitions


I hope this helps with your questions

If you have any further questions please feel free to email me directly at roy@magicballrack.com

LAMas
09-28-2010, 11:06 PM
The Magic Rack doesn't add divots to the cloth, but it can get in the way of balls that roll over it on a weak break.

JamisonNeu
09-28-2010, 11:15 PM
I am just glad I don't have to rack enough to care whether the rack is heavy or not. :dance:

Snapshot9
09-28-2010, 11:28 PM
I am just glad I don't have to rack enough to care whether the rack is heavy or not. :dance:


Jamison, That's because you are a trick-shot artist .... :grin::grin:

nathandumoulin
09-29-2010, 02:16 AM
agreed. but we are not talking about preferences or opinions. He said bob jewett is wrong. I (personallY) trust bob jewett. I have no clue who the poster is and if he qualified to dismiss bob jewetts ideas -- who does happen to be "one of the worlds leading experts" on the motions of billiard balls.

Please try actually first reading the post to which you're making reference. I don't mean to be rude, but you really did not properly read my words.

At no point did I say that Bob Jewett was wrong. I said the divots resulting by tapped balls can cause bad rolls. He then challenged me, to which I responded with a rebuttal, followed by his agreement (although he felt the roll was not significant enough to warrant criticism).

Which again contrary to your post, is based on opinion.

Secondly, I clearly stated that my post was the opinion of some of the worlds top pros. Never did I state that I was qualified to dismiss Bob's expertise. I do feel however, that the opinion shared by these several top pros does qualify.

Anyway, Bob clearly knows what he's talking about, and his *opinion* is valid. It is simply not one shared by all.

EDIT: Again, it's not my intent to come off as rude or hostile here. I simply feel you've entirely misread my posts. :)

JimS
09-29-2010, 02:38 AM
I don't want to add to the variables by making divots in the cloth. One pocket or straight pool position can be brutal enough... i.e. being off by only a smidgeon/a hair/a teensy weensy bit, and having a run stopped by being off just a smidgeon... just a teensy weensy bit caused by the rackiing divot, is just not acceptable.

Conditions need to be as perfect as possible because I'm so imperfect.

pulzcul
09-29-2010, 05:57 AM
Well I guess the only thing to do is rack twice [once on each end] and recover the table. Thats the only way to stop the dreaded divot problem. Really gentlemen perfection cannot be achieved. The weight of the balls alone coupled with friction will dent the cloth regardless of our attempts to stop it. I'm afraid the only control we have is to use your own table or play in events that have new cloth installed. Me? I'll be playing league tonite on public tables with plastic racks and divots so deep a soft break wouldn't push em' out !

JamisonNeu
09-29-2010, 04:01 PM
Jamison, That's because you are a trick-shot artist .... :grin::grin:

Thanks for bursting my bubble...I forgot I can't play pool. :sorry:

9BallPaul
09-29-2010, 04:29 PM
Works for me:

http://www.ozonebilliards.com/doraprpobara.html?mr:trackingCode=38C6FA4A-2FBC-DF11-92F8-0019B9C04BE4&mr:referralID=NA

pulzcul
09-29-2010, 08:26 PM
[QUOTE=9BallPaul;2633943]Works for me:

http://www.ozonebilliards.com/doraprpobara.html?mr:trackingCode=38C6FA4A-2FBC-DF11-92F8-0019B9C04BE4&mr:referralID=NA[/QU

I took a look at Don's flip rack. No disrespect intended but there is no way you can flip that rack up over the head ball without moving it. Not with the balls pushed to the front. No way.

dyoung5
09-29-2010, 10:07 PM
[URL="http://www.grandbilliards.com"] this always works for me, you dont ever have to worry about racking:smile:

Zbotiman
09-29-2010, 10:42 PM
Qualifications aren't necessary to assert that it's preferable NOT to have bumps and divots on a table vs. having them.

In my 30 odd years of hitting balls on the cloth, all that can be said is, "playing in a top American tournament on Diamonds covered in Simonis is like putting on the greens of Augusta in April." Sure there are divots on the course and spike marks on the greens, but nowhere on the planet Earth does it get any better!
"Pro's complain about EVERYTHING!" And no, it definitely doesn't mean there right all the time. "ALL" cloth gets racking divots, new, old, and in between. When you see the tables and the conditions in the Philippines, you don't have to wonder whether it was the American Pro's or the Filipino's voicing displeasure over the dimple's in the racking area!
Besides, Carmen Sardo, was a great guy to hang out with at the Tournaments, and the Sardo brother's rack works "r-e-a-l well, too!" :wink:

nathandumoulin
09-29-2010, 11:58 PM
When you see the tables and the conditions in the Philippines, you don't have to wonder whether it was the American Pro's or the Filipino's voicing displeasure over the dimple's in the racking area!

Based on this logic, we might as well all play on grungy bar tables with bucket pockets, bad drifts, holes in the cloth, and miss sized balls.

(I'm just teasing :p)

In truth though, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play with the best equipment. When you have the option of purchasing an expensive product that creates bad divots, versus one that doesn't (and is cheap), it's not about complaining. It's about choosing the superior product.

Luxury
09-30-2010, 12:32 AM
I'm getting a nine foot brunswick with 860 installed in a week or two when my house closes. Me and my friends play just as much eight ball as nine ball. Now what? Magic rack can't help there. I'm considering buying a delta 13. Then I just read that they can't get the balls as tight as Sardo.

For the record I have experienced the balls settling into divots from the Sardo rack and I've experienced balls rolling up on the magic rack during the break at slow speeds and the balls did something much worse when rolling up into the magic rack. There are pros and cons for each. I think in my case I will use the Sardo and I'll tell you why.

For one I play eight ball too. Secondly with the Sardo divots it's the same exact chance for either player to get a bad break so there would be no arguments. With the magic rack one of the players has to touch a ball or balls to remove the magic rack and that is where an argument could start. A ball might have a pocket by half a millimeter but when moved it might be blocked or when two balls are frozen on the magic rack that is an issue. I always have stuck to what prevents arguments. Also with the magic rack a guy can cheat easier. Whoops! didn't mean to move that ball! Guess that one nine combo won't go anymore. NO IT WAS NOT THERE IT WAS HERE!

Luxury
09-30-2010, 12:33 AM
For the record I have a magic rack in my pool case that I'm thrilled to have when going to pool halls. Not going to bring the Sardo there.

nathandumoulin
09-30-2010, 12:52 AM
For the record I have experienced the balls settling into divots from the Sardo rack and I've experienced balls rolling up on the magic rack during the break at slow speeds and the balls did something much worse when rolling up into the magic rack. There are pros and cons for each. I think in my case I will use the Sardo and I'll tell you why.

Here's a suggestion. Contact Abe on the forum (username i4pool), and buy his $18 tapping template. Then *lightly tap* your new table. Then buy a Delta 13.

Use the two together and you'll get a perfect rack every time.

It's similar to using a Sardo, but will keep the size of the divots down to a minimum, since you'll only be tapping it once a week or so, rather than every single time you rack the balls. :)

EDIT: Not positive, but I could have sworn I saw them do this at the US Open 10 ball. I was busy working the stream at the time, but maybe Jay can confirm if he ever reads this.

9BallPaul
09-30-2010, 04:24 AM
[QUOTE=9BallPaul;2633943]Works for me:

http://www.ozonebilliards.com/doraprpobara.html?mr:trackingCode=38C6FA4A-2FBC-DF11-92F8-0019B9C04BE4&mr:referralID=NA[/QU

I took a look at Don's flip rack. No disrespect intended but there is no way you can flip that rack up over the head ball without moving it. Not with the balls pushed to the front. No way.

Watch me rack, then tell me that. No problem.

whitewolf
09-30-2010, 10:30 AM
Magic rack is not paper and the Sardo is a pain in the ass. If you have back problems the last thing you want is a Sardo. Johnnyt

I'll tell you what a pain in the ass is: sitting at the US Open and watching the players spend 15 minutes racking the balls unsuccessfully!!!!!!!!!!! That's what a pain in the ass is.

They should bring back the Sardo rack.

whitewolf
09-30-2010, 10:32 AM
The Sardo is essentially tapping the table over and over again. After a few uses, it's not racking the balls, but rather just moving them into the craters it's previously made. This then affects the roll of the balls during play.
.


Simply NOT TRUE. I have one of those metal racks at home and it is very hard to get a tight rack. The Sardo gives me one every time, and I did not try to put craters in the table etc.

whitewolf
09-30-2010, 10:35 AM
Having used both, I'll add that a Sardo rack requires considerable setup.

Simply NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!

No offense to you my friend, but it takes an over zealous finatic who tries to use setup steps. At home, I just starting racking with the Sardo rack and it works like a CHARM. End of story, IMHO.

whitewolf
09-30-2010, 10:37 AM
Clearly I'm not making sense. As such, we better just completely disregard the opinions of the worlds leading experts on the subject. lol

As for whether or not I can demonstrate the effect myself....definitely. It's most obvious when playing position, when you have to roll up near another ball in the racking area. As the cue ball comes to rest, it suddenly falls into a divot, pushing up frozen against the other ball that's in an adjacent divot. Once you find yourself snookered a few times as a result of the divot left by the rack, you'll quit dismissing the opinions of those who play under such conditions for a living.

Pro's can be wrong, but normally when it comes to stuff like this, their experience far out weighs the validity of our own opinions.

No offense to you personally, but it takes a real moron to try to setup craters. My God. One doesn't need that sh!t for the Sardo to work properly.

nathandumoulin
09-30-2010, 10:58 AM
No offense to you personally, but it takes a real moron to try to setup craters. My God. One doesn't need that sh!t for the Sardo to work properly.

A moron to setup craters? What does that even mean? Seems a bit ironic actually.

desi2960
09-30-2010, 11:06 AM
i buy everything new that comes on the market for my table and i have the sardo and the magic both.
what i use to rack the balls is a very heavy, very solid, wood rack made by the amish.
hard to beat a well made wood rack.

jcrack_corn
09-30-2010, 03:19 PM
All good bro!

I was also just kind of trying to stress the point that pool pros (in general) dont have a CLUE as to what is actually happening on the table! They have lots of opinions and ideas (about divots, english, throw, etc) that simply dont hold water in the physics world.

Kind of along the lines of why does tiger woods have a swing coach? Some people understand the mechanics (me) but cant play worth a crap (me). Whereas some people can play like god (insert any pool pro) but if you ask them "why" that happened its a mixed bag of answers you might get. (which isn't a problem of course, i just wouldnt trust their opinion until researched).

Some guys spend CAREERS in physics studying rotational mechanics.....i bet they cant play pool worth a shit!

Please try actually first reading the post to which you're making reference. I don't mean to be rude, but you really did not properly read my words.

At no point did I say that Bob Jewett was wrong. I said the divots resulting by tapped balls can cause bad rolls. He then challenged me, to which I responded with a rebuttal, followed by his agreement (although he felt the roll was not significant enough to warrant criticism).

Which again contrary to your post, is based on opinion.

Secondly, I clearly stated that my post was the opinion of some of the worlds top pros. Never did I state that I was qualified to dismiss Bob's expertise. I do feel however, that the opinion shared by these several top pros does qualify.

Anyway, Bob clearly knows what he's talking about, and his *opinion* is valid. It is simply not one shared by all.

EDIT: Again, it's not my intent to come off as rude or hostile here. I simply feel you've entirely misread my posts. :)

MasterClass
10-01-2010, 12:54 AM
i buy everything new that comes on the market for my table and i have the sardo and the magic both.
what i use to rack the balls is a very heavy, very solid, wood rack made by the amish.
hard to beat a well made wood rack.

I too still prefers the good ole fashion heavy solid wood racks.

I just don't think there should be anything else on the table besides the balls.

It is also quite a fuss to put all the 9 balls on magic rack and make sure they stay in shape.

nathandumoulin
10-01-2010, 04:04 AM
It is also quite a fuss to put all the 9 balls on magic rack and make sure they stay in shape.

Give it a little time and you'll soon discover that it's far quicker to achieve a tight rack than it is with a traditional rack (on average).

jay helfert
10-01-2010, 04:18 AM
I hated the Magic Rack at first. I thought it was a joke. But I'm a believer now. It works! As for conventional racks, I like the Delta 13 and the Diamond rack the best. There used to be something called a "monster" rack. That was a great triangle too.

Maniac
10-01-2010, 06:39 AM
Here's a suggestion. Contact Abe on the forum (username i4pool), and buy his $18 tapping template. Then *lightly tap* your new table. Then buy a Delta 13.

Use the two together and you'll get a perfect rack every time.


Save the $18 and buy a good layered tip with it ;). My home table was 4 years old when I bought a Delta-13 rack. The cloth was VERY worn (and with divots) in the rack area. Now, I rack a set of 15 balls with the Delta rack, firmly hold them in place and get my wife to tap them lightly into place. Even with the old, worn out cloth, I can get a PERFECTLY tight rack every time. We just have to repeat this simple procedure every week or so. And....I have NOT had ANY issues with balls rolling off due to divots, at least no more than anyone would expect to have on a table/cloth as worn as mine.

I've used them all and I firmly stand by the Delta rack for ease and simplicity. The Sardo is too big and clumsy. The Magic Rack concept is just goofy-as-hell (imo). Yeah, yeah, I know they both have been used in major tournaments. Sponsorship has a lot to do with that. At least with the Delta, it's more "old-school" than the other two options and you NEVER have to disturb any balls removing it after the break.

Maniac

Maniac
10-01-2010, 06:52 AM
No offense to you personally, but it takes a real moron to try to setup craters. My God. One doesn't need that sh!t for the Sardo to work properly.

I think some of us are overdoing it a bit by calling a dimple a "crater". I've been shooting pool for over 40 years and have found that dimples in the tables have caused very few games to be altered.

Major tournaments are played on freshly set up tables with new cloth. Rarely, and I mean RARELY do you see a dimple change the path of a rolling ball.

Poolhall tables are going to have dimples no matter what racking system you use. Their tables are used over and over and over again by recreational customers. You are going to get an occasional roll-off from a slow-rolling ball.

Home tables can be like poolhall tables. If you break frequently on them then the racking area is going to get worn out real fast (especially the foot spot). This can be controlled though by just NOT breaking on your home table.

Dimples/divots/craters, whatever you want to call them, unless you are playing in only "major tournaments", better get used to them. Best to just disregard them (focus on what IS important) and get on with shooting pool.

Maniac

Maniac
10-01-2010, 06:56 AM
Some guys spend CAREERS in physics studying rotational mechanics.....i bet they cant play pool worth a shit!

For me, the former, NO, the latter, YES :o:D:D:D!!!

Maniac

Chi2dxa
10-01-2010, 07:20 AM
With all the talk about the Sardo tight rack I was afraid that they would disappear from the face of the earth never to be seen again so I went out and bought one. My local pool room had 3 of them left out of the box so I had my pick of them and they sold it to me for $25.00. I took it home and rack some 9 balls and the rack was perfect with every Aramith ball touching. Now I am not sure what instructions they would have given me in the box if it were new but all I did was put the 9 balls in the rack and push down. I got into my SVB stance and lined up my CB using my stick the way Grey Ghost demonstrated in his video and let it rip using my best imitation of SVB's uppercut stroke (resembling a boxer's low blow to the gonads) and the results were spectacular! Great spread, CB Squat, 9 ball moving toward the corner pocket for a hanger, 1 ball in the side pocket and the 2&7 disappeared. I did this for almost 4 hours again and again and again averaging 2 balls off the break (you know how it is when you get a new toy) and had 1 break and run(I am getting better at this game). My break and run average before was about 1 every 2 1/2 years. I am not concerned about pool table divots if that is even true if they do come they come my Simonis 860 cloth will be 1 year old next month and its just cloth. What I am concerned with is results. After all a toy will last forever if you don't play with it.:sorry: All in all the Sardo was a good investment.

Tony_in_MD
10-01-2010, 07:47 AM
Kudos to you.

I have more problems with tables not level and bad slate seams then I ever had with dimples in the rack area, or leaving the magic rack on the table.

I have a sardo rack, a good heavy wood rack, a rack-em-right template, and the magic rack.

The rack-em-right template, and the magic rack both give the same consistent rack in 9 ball. The Sardo gives good racks but not on the same consistent basis as the other two. All in all I prefer the magic rack, due to it's ease of use and portability. I also don't like going to a place and tapping a table that I don't own.

Have I had any problems with the magic rack interfering with the play of the balls, No. Is it EZ to use, Yes.

In my humble opinion for those who feel the magic rack is hard to use and/or causes problems when you need to move balls from it, use your wood rack or delta 13, and play straight or one pocket where consistency of the rack is not a big issue.

In rotation games of 9 ball and 10 ball the nature of the rack has a huge effect on the game. When I play those games I expect the best rack that can be achieved on the table. The only products that I have used that give me this are the tapping template and the magic rack.


I think some of us are overdoing it a bit by calling a dimple a "crater". I've been shooting pool for over 40 years and have found that dimples in the tables have caused very few games to be altered.

Major tournaments are played on freshly set up tables with new cloth. Rarely, and I mean RARELY do you see a dimple change the path of a rolling ball.

Poolhall tables are going to have dimples no matter what racking system you use. Their tables are used over and over and over again by recreational customers. You are going to get an occasional roll-off from a slow-rolling ball.

Home tables can be like poolhall tables. If you break frequently on them then the racking area is going to get worn out real fast (especially the foot spot). This can be controlled though by just NOT breaking on your home table.

Dimples/divots/craters, whatever you want to call them, unless you are playing in only "major tournaments", better get used to them. Best to just disregard them (focus on what IS important) and get on with shooting pool.

Maniac

whitewolf
10-01-2010, 11:40 AM
A moron to setup craters? What does that even mean? Seems a bit ironic actually.


From what I have read, the Sardo rack and the balls need to sit on the table overnight (with the cloth dampened or something ? - I could be wrong here), but nonetheless, the objective was to setup small dimples (some here on the forum are calling them craters) so the balls could sit there every rack.

whitewolf
10-01-2010, 11:43 AM
I hated the Magic Rack at first. I thought it was a joke. But I'm a believer now. It works! As for conventional racks, I like the Delta 13 and the Diamond rack the best. There used to be something called a "monster" rack. That was a great triangle too.

I still think the Magic Rack is a stupid idea. I watched the video and thought to myself - how do you remove that piece of crap after the balls are broken? Does it 'magically' disappear? :grin:

I have a Delta 13 rack at home, and believe me when I say it doesn't even come close to racking the balls as good as a Sardo rack can.

nathandumoulin
10-01-2010, 12:04 PM
From what I have read, the Sardo rack and the balls need to sit on the table overnight (with the cloth dampened or something ? - I could be wrong here), but nonetheless, the objective was to setup small dimples (some here on the forum are calling them craters) so the balls could sit there every rack.

That's good and great, but what does it have to do with my earlier post? After all, you did quote my post while making an incomprehensible comment regarding "morons".

Tony_in_MD
10-02-2010, 03:17 AM
If the 9 ball was moving toward a corner then it was not a good tight rack.

A perfect rack would result in the 9 ball not moving at all, unless it was hit by another ball.

.......Great spread, CB Squat, 9 ball moving toward the corner pocket for a hanger, 1 ball in the side pocket and the 2&7 disappeared.........

Tony_in_MD
10-02-2010, 03:18 AM
Whitewolf, as you live in MD too, PM me.

I would be glad to get together with you to show you first hand the magic rack and how EZ it is to use.

I still think the Magic Rack is a stupid idea. I watched the video and thought to myself - how do you remove that piece of crap after the balls are broken? Does it 'magically' disappear? :grin:

I have a Delta 13 rack at home, and believe me when I say it doesn't even come close to racking the balls as good as a Sardo rack can.

DeepBanks
10-02-2010, 05:08 AM
I hated the Magic Rack at first. I thought it was a joke. But I'm a believer now. It works! As for conventional racks, I like the Delta 13 and the Diamond rack the best. There used to be something called a "monster" rack. That was a great triangle too.

I've tried about every rack there is . . . even bought a Porper rack thats pretty cool from Mr. Helfert . . . I've had Magic rack for two months - it does work! Simple and cheap. Next best I've found is my heavy wood "Gorilla" rack.

Luxury
10-02-2010, 10:26 PM
You weren't kidding about the nine ball not moving. I could make a fortune if people would bet me the nine stays in the middle of the magic rack while I obliterate the balls.